Locked In with Ian Bick - Retired Police Captain Shares Raw & Unfiltered Stories from Corrections, Narcotics & Patrol | John Reilly

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Starting point is 00:00:35 You reached out to me, I think, on Facebook, right? Saying you watched the show. I remember I liked your style. I like the way you kind of do both perspectives, a person being locked up and on the other side, law enforcement. I like a person that gets both sides of the story. Not to say that this is enemy, you know, against enemy. It's not, like we were talking earlier.

Starting point is 00:00:57 In the beginning, I thought it was like that. But then as time goes on and you mature and you see things, you gain a different type of intelligence of the matter. Yeah, and I think people love the dynamic of like former, you know, someone that was incarcerated with former law enforcement. Right. And that also helps break down barriers too. Right. Right. Exactly.

Starting point is 00:01:22 The, you know, we talked on the phone the first time. I told you when I started doing corrections, I was doing county jail corrections. I was a deputy sheriff. I was 20 years old. And, you know, I walked in there not knowing anything. And I walked in there with that, right? And I found out quickly that doesn't get you nowhere, okay?

Starting point is 00:01:46 I'm not saying that you can't have a backbone. You have to have a backbone as a correction officer. But you also have a thing, you have to have a thing called don't take away a person dignity, okay? And you also have to have a thing where there are rules and regulations, but at times they're meant to be broken, you know, or bent a little bit. And I'm not saying that with a rule violation of breaking the law, but, you know, when a man's

Starting point is 00:02:15 going to the bathroom in his cell and he puts his blanket up in front of his, in front of the cell, give him a break. You know what I mean? He's in there for five minutes. Let him do his thing, you know? You know, in the beginning, you're like, take down that sheet. You know, I'm going to bathroom, see, oh, I don't care. Take down that seat.

Starting point is 00:02:31 And now, you know, look it back, I'm like, why would you, you know, you got, your inmate count is good. He's not in there with another inmate. You know what I mean? Let him do his thing, you know. So, with that, one day at a time, one step at a time, you know, you become an officer where you realize that. the way that you talk to people, the tone of voice that you use, the words that you choose

Starting point is 00:03:00 are huge, huge things, okay? Some of the best CEOs that worked there that I worked with were not big muscular dudes. Best guys that worked there could talk. You know what I mean? Treated people fairly. Got them to do what they wanted them to do. I'm not saying they got stepped on. They didn't get stepped on.

Starting point is 00:03:18 They ran a good unit. You know what I mean? Everybody was doing what they're supposed to do. They just knew how to do it. And I quickly realized at 20 years old, what's this guy doing differently as a CO where he's everything's working out? And then this guy who's always calling for help for assistance, who's always writing people up. You know what I mean? Is this guy not doing his job?

Starting point is 00:03:38 And this guy is? And I noticed that, no, that's not the case. This guy's creating his own problems. You know what I mean? This guy, he knows how to run a year. He knows how to treat people. So I learned from things like that. And that just continued on into when I'm,

Starting point is 00:03:54 I became a cop on the road as a rural police officer. It continued narcotics not so much because narcotics is, when I became a narcotics investigator, it's more investigations. You know what I mean? It helped with interviews after the arrest, you know, as far as, you know, tell me about what's going on in your organization, things like that. I felt as if people were able to talk to me a little bit more because of the fact that I had this ability that I learned how to talk to people and how to be sincere with my words to them.

Starting point is 00:04:31 You know what I mean? And then when I got in city policing, you know, it just continued on. But the whole foundation of my law enforcement career, and I never forget it. And the people that are my friends are in corrections, I tell them that every police officer should be correction officer before. they become a police officer. You just, you, you learn so much on how to treat people. You learn, you learn so much as far as how important the things that you say to people are. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:05:11 I remember getting on Role Patrol and I went to a large fight and I get out of the car. And I go, what is going on here? Like that, right? Right? Okay. So now a lot of cops would be like, get the fuck out of there.

Starting point is 00:05:29 You're going to go to jail. You want to go to jail? You go to jail? They're shaking their handcuffs. You know what I mean? They're pulling their stick out. They're trying to. And when I get out of the car and I go,

Starting point is 00:05:37 what's going on here? It's like a father or mother coming into a room and catching a bunch of siblings fighting. What is going on here? And it breaks down the barrier of being a police officer. It looks more like a parent kind of just scolding the kid. And it works.

Starting point is 00:05:53 It started working for me. People will be like, oh, this guy's doing this. Oh, man, this isn't worth all this. Come on, man. I was trying to have a cup of coffee and a donut. You know what I mean? Now I'm bringing down the barrier

Starting point is 00:06:04 where they start laughing at me. You know what I'm because they coffee and donut. And I'm working this whole situation. And they think I'm just, I'm, you know, I'm not that good of an officer. Yeah, well, I'm trying, I'm kind of showing you that we're all going from here to here.

Starting point is 00:06:21 and I'm doing it just by using simple wording and simple tactics. You know what I mean? And I learned that all in corrections. If you can get 70 inmates to calm down who a lot of them are people that are going to be in jail the rest of their lives. If you can get 70 inmates, you can deal with 10 people on the road. No problem. Do you think police officers are given too much power like in the beginning, which is a good segue with why you think? think that correctional, you should work as a correctional officer before coming a police officer

Starting point is 00:06:56 because in a correctional officer standpoint, you're put on a job that might be just as dangerous as a police officer, but you have no gun, you have not as many of the tools that a police officer has. I think corrections more dangerous than being on the road. I got a lot of cops that get mad at me when I say that. But think about the weapons that can be made. Think about how they can get you into a corner. I'm talking real criminals.

Starting point is 00:07:19 I'm not talking people that made mistakes. So if you become a correction officer, you kind of put your feet at the fire, you know what I mean? Where you've got to kind of, you got to know what you're doing quick or you're going to quit. I've seen officers come into the job and not be able to handle it. Big, big dudes. You think they could run a unit. They can't handle it because they just don't know how to adapt to the setting. I mean, you got to remember something that when your correction office, you're kind of doing a bit.

Starting point is 00:07:57 You know what I mean? You're not doing 24 hours a day. You're doing 8, 12, 16, whatever. But when that door locks behind you, that's a shitty feeling. You got to get used to. You know what I mean? Because you go your whole life where you can go out of a room, no problem. Now you depend on somebody to open that door for you, okay?

Starting point is 00:08:14 It's a crappy feeling. So that even happens as a correctional. I remember when that door first closed, I know I'm going off into a little tangent here, But when that door first closed on me, I was with my training officer, a good guy. And I hear the boom. And I go, holy shit, I'm stuck. I'm in here. I got 16 inmates on one side, 16 on the other.

Starting point is 00:08:37 I'm stuck here, you know. And it's a wake-up call. You become an adult quickly with not having that experience and going on. right into the job as an officer, especially at the age of 22, 23, 24, I don't think your maturity's there yet. I don't, I think that you think everything's black and white. I think that you think that you did something wrong,

Starting point is 00:09:12 you're going to get a ticket for it. I don't think you think of discretion as much as you do if you have that time in the jail. And you realize, like I told you earlier, there's some things that you would enforce and some things that you might not enforce, okay? I don't think that you realize how important your words are and your tone of voice are. You quickly, if you yell at 32 inmates, you're not going to, it's not going to go anywhere,

Starting point is 00:09:37 you know, if you have in your mind that this is how I'm going to treat people, the way I treated prisoners fairly, don't take away their dignity, treat them fairly, and you do that on the street, you're going to have success. Yes. Yeah, so the whole thing is I look at corrections. If you're not going to do it as a career, I look at it like it should be a prerequisite to become a police officer. It teaches you so much. Are you struggling to find the perfect holiday gift? Meet or a frames, guys. If you are a last minute shopper like me, you know how stressful it can be to find something thoughtful as the holidays get closer and the stores start looking empty. or you missed that Amazon Prime delivery deadline. But don't worry, I found the perfect solution. Oraframes.

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Starting point is 00:12:16 I grew up a white boy in a middle-class neighborhood, ranches, okay. I went to elementary school with one black kid. I went to public school up to ninth grade, ninth grade to 12. I went to parochial school. Again, two black people. So no Spanics, no Asians. So then you go from that to where you're in a block and you're the white guy. and there's 32

Starting point is 00:12:45 Spanics and black males Okay They're looking to me like I'm a privileged white boy Okay And they're not going to listen to me Okay These guys are from the street

Starting point is 00:12:56 A lot of these guys They're not going to listen To anything I say Okay And you learn how To get them to realize That you're a good guy And you're not judging them

Starting point is 00:13:05 It helps so much You know what I mean As far as to get To get through Your eight hours or you're 12 hours. You know, I understand that you're innocent to proven guilty,

Starting point is 00:13:19 but there's many people, I think it's gotten better with officers, but there's many officers that will think you're guilty to prove innocent, okay? Well, how can you be in jail if there's not enough against, you know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:13:33 I always thought before, everybody in jail is guilty. There's innocent people that are in jail right now. I hate to tell you, okay? There's people that are serving more time than they should be serving, okay? I was talking about that episode with the marijuana. How can you now say in New York State marijuana is legal up to a certain amount and then you have prisoners that are doing time for marijuana? How can you do that? You have to go back

Starting point is 00:13:55 and you have to change their sentences, sentence served or whatever it may be. That's just wrong. But that's a whole new thing. I mean, that's a whole, there's a whole another thing. But yeah, it's one of those deals where, you know, you realize, a different type of category. You also realize that if they had the parents I had, they might not be in the situation I was in. They're in, I'm sorry. If they had the law and support,

Starting point is 00:14:26 they might not be in the situation they're in right now. There's a lot of people that follow in their parents' footsteps. You know what I mean? My father was a fire chief. My uncle was a deputy fire chief. My cousins were cops and firemen. So we're all following each other's footsteps. But what if you father?

Starting point is 00:14:42 was a criminal. You literally have family members that are in there. Hey, can you give this commissary to my father? He's in A block. You know what I mean? And that's a wake-up call. You're like, wow, your freaking father's in jail with you? You know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:14:56 And it makes you say to yourself, if they had what I had, they might not be here. That's why I always start at the person's childhood because you get to know the person before they committed that crime and the factors. Right. That initial startup, don't get around. There's people that, when you get to a certain age, I think you know the difference you're right and wrong. Okay, I don't mean that.

Starting point is 00:15:18 There's people that have good lifestyles and do something wrong. Doesn't mean that they don't get a second chance and doesn't mean that people don't make mistakes. We make them a lot of time. I make them a lot of time. But if you had, it's just, if you had the support that I had, you know, it would be different. You know, just in my career,

Starting point is 00:15:38 I think that my career turned this one certain way because things that happened to me when I was a senior in high school. My mother passed away when I was two months from graduate from high school. And I wanted it to always be culinary arts. I love cooking to this day. And my father, my sister, I had three older sisters there out of the house. It was me and my father. So instead of doing culinary arts, I stayed at a local college.

Starting point is 00:16:05 I went to local community college. and I was going for, believe it, I'll be a gym coach, okay? Started taking all these courses, biology, chemistry. I'm like, what the hell's this got to do with freaking gym? I sucked at it, right? So my buddy says, take correction, take criminal justice. Classes are simple. So I started taking criminal justice classes and they're easy.

Starting point is 00:16:27 All right? Well, what happens when you take criminal justice classes? You hang out with people that want to be correction officers and want to be cops, okay? So it starts getting in your mind. My father was a fire chief. I could have taken. It was a hundred-man-paid department. I could very easily be on,

Starting point is 00:16:39 three days off. Not saying it's a dangerous job, it is, okay? But it's not as much stress as corrections of police. Sorry, fireman, but it's just true. So that same friend says to me, hey, I just got a job at the county jail. I'm making $19,000 a year. Well, 1990, $19,000 a year is pretty good money

Starting point is 00:17:01 for a young kid by himself, right? I'm able to move out of my father's house. My father can continue his life, you know, start dating women, things like that. I was giving him his freedom back. And I did that. Well, when I start working corrections, guess who? Corrections officer. Now, very few want that as a career, especially at the county level.

Starting point is 00:17:21 They're looking for either police or they're looking for state corrections or federal corrections. So when I started that job at the jail, all guys, I hung out who wanted to be cops, started taking cop tests. then they make me, I go from the county that I'm working in corrections to road patrol. Now I'm working in rural policing. So I go from a jail where I'm dealing with a majority of minority to work in the county rural, okay,

Starting point is 00:17:51 because we have two cities in my county, three cities in my county. One's really small. The other two cities are ran by a city police department, okay? So you're not in those cities. You're in the rural area. Now I'm back to where I grew up. You know what I mean? I'm back to mostly white people, okay?

Starting point is 00:18:06 And then you're dealing with a type of crime is, you know, the white trash guy getting bombed up in his trailer, coming out of the back and shooting a shotgun office. You know that kind of crap. You're also dealing with domestics and all that. And you're dealing with, you know, state troopers are your backup. So you're dealing with a different animal. So then I go from county rule to they're starting this new drug task force.

Starting point is 00:18:32 Do you want to be an investigator? I was a drug test person. I put in for it. Put in for it. I was the youngest guy. I get it. So I go from that. Now I'm back in the city again.

Starting point is 00:18:43 Okay? And I'm realizing that, holy cow, this is a totally different atmosphere again. I'm doing search warrants in inner city. And it's another freaking wake-up call. You know what I mean? It's another learning experience. It's just my career, it seems as if at the time I was making these moves,

Starting point is 00:19:01 I didn't realize how influential those moves would be to me in my mindset later on in life. You know what I mean? Yeah. Does that make any sense? It's like that molded me into my brain having this whole opinion of the law enforcement, judicial system, corrections, et cetera. I have a totally different mindset that I had when in the beginning. Did you ever think you were going to become a cop when you were a kid? No, I got to tell you, I was a mama's boy.

Starting point is 00:19:32 My sisters make fun of me. They're like, oh, my God, you were the biggest wimp, you know? Like, I was tall at everybody and the kids I hung out with, so nobody bothered me. I wasn't a wimp when it comes to my fellow kid, my fellow friends. But when I was in my house, scared of the dark, scared of this, scared of that, you know what I mean? I was, so my sisters make fun of me. Like, how the hell did you ever make undercover bias? You know, how the hell did you?

Starting point is 00:19:57 And I sit back and I'm like, I don't know. Wow, I did it. And you're very tall. Like, you stick out. Like, you can control a room. So I can't even see you as an undercover. Well, so the unit that I was in, the Drug Task Force, it was six or seven of us sheriffs, six, seven of the PDs and a couple of little villages that came in, a couple guys came in.

Starting point is 00:20:24 And, you know, we all had the balls to do the job, make buys and everything. I did a handful of buys. I didn't do as many buys as some guys. Some guys love doing the buys because it was easy because all you did was a buy sheet afterwards. Like they were lazy, but they had no problem putting their life on the line because when he came back, they're like a guy named T-Bone, Sommidus, and then you find out, you as a case agent got to identify him,

Starting point is 00:20:48 come up with a six-pack of them to pick out of, show him when he picks the guy out, and then the next thing is grand jury, he testifies, and then the rest of the day is off. You know what I mean? He's just chilling. So there's guys did a lot of buys like that. But what I did was when I was in the narcotics says,

Starting point is 00:21:04 I grow my hair and I grew a nasty goatee. I mean, it was like I never trimmed it. You know what I mean? It was just like gooey and nasty and that. I mean, I showered, you know, and there was some guys that took a little too far. Like, they didn't shower, you know? But anyways, I was clean, but I looked like shit.

Starting point is 00:21:21 I remember when I realized that I had a good look because when I was Christmas shopping and security started following me around the star. That's when I realized that I had a good look. And I always used to wear this green army coat, okay? And I pretended like when I make a buy that I wanted to be a black guy. I would talk, you know, I talked like that. And it was just, and I put tape in the corner of my glasses like they were broken.

Starting point is 00:21:51 And I tip them to the side a little bit, like they weren't fitting my face properly. And I would take this duress. It was a Yankee handkerchief. And he said, I had, picture this. He said, tie it on my fucking tie not in the back. The hair would come out the back. And I would look like a freaking idiot. I mean, I knew I knew I was not going to win any prizes for beauty.

Starting point is 00:22:12 But the one time, we had an officer in charge. The name was Benny, great, great cop. He says to me, he goes, John, I want to use you with this guy later on. I don't know we're bringing him in. He'll be in the front room. It was an old firehouse. And one stall firehouse. It was beautiful.

Starting point is 00:22:31 We could bring our snitches in through this one garage door. And everything was, all the windows were tinted out. Nobody could see in. We'd bring them in a tinted car, bring them in. We'd freaking brief them, debrief them, whatever, okay? Who can you buy from all that kind of stuff? In the front room, which was the old living room for the fireman. And then to the back, where the dormitory was, were all our offices.

Starting point is 00:22:52 It was a beautiful setup. So anyways, Benny says to me, I want you to meet this guy. I want you to make buys. know, do some buys them. Like, okay. So that afternoon comes and, uh, he's meeting with him. I walk in the room. And the kid goes, well, man, he looks like a cop.

Starting point is 00:23:08 Freaking, he ain't buying nothing. He looks like a cop. You don't worry, man. I'll be all right, right? So, um, he goes, all right, if you say so, he goes, but we can be able to buy shit. So I go in the back room. He's talking about him some more.

Starting point is 00:23:24 I get into my outfit, I just told you, right? Tape in my corner of my glasses. tip them, do a rag, right? Put on my green coat. I freaking, Benny puts him in the unmarked, undercover car. This piece of shit grand am we used to drive. And I get in the driver's seat.

Starting point is 00:23:41 So Benny's opening up the garage door, and I'm like this backing up, and I can see this kid staring at me, and I can feel him. And I go, what? He goes, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're going to be good. It's going to be good, right? So I went with him for a little bit, and we made some, but back then you're talking 9701.

Starting point is 00:24:01 It was crack, crack epidemic. You know, we dealt with very little heroin at the time. I had three heroin snitches the whole time I was there. And after the third one, I says, I refuse to take a heroin snitch. Because crack heads will come in and they'll work their charge off. I know they're still using crack. We're not stupid. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:24:25 They're dealing with me during the day or afternoon. Other hours, they're buying it for themselves to smoke. I get all that. But heroin addicts, I remember we had a guy, I want to talk to an investigator. I want to work. I want to work. Okay, who can you do? And he has some good targets.

Starting point is 00:24:43 So I said, all right, listen here, motherfucker. We're getting you out. And I'm telling you Monday morning, you better fucking call me. If you don't fucking call me, I'm getting a warrant on you. I'm coming to get your ass. You understand me? you're going to jail. I'm going to tell a judge that you didn't cooperate.

Starting point is 00:24:58 You broke our balls and you're going to be fucked. Okay. I mean, I'll give that speech. All three of them. Monday morning? I got nothing. Okay. That's when I said to myself, heroin is a powerful drug.

Starting point is 00:25:10 Okay? They didn't give a shit about, they promised me the world. And then Monday morning came, they freaking were, they were, you know, getting heroin, doing their thing. Crackheads, they call you Monday morning. they'd show up. You know what I mean? I know they were still smoking, like I said,

Starting point is 00:25:28 but heroin addicts, they wouldn't care. They were on the street and they're doing their thing. And, you know, I went through my promise. I mean, I got a warrant. I found them again, but they were never working, you know, working it off. But the crack cuts, they would have, oh, my God, they would have felony possession charges and they would work it off to ACDs.

Starting point is 00:25:47 You know what I mean? Forrest, don't do it again and, you know, let it go. I've seen felonies go down to nothing, you know? And that's the problem, like we're talking about the system, the more people you know that are bad people that you can do, the better you are as far as be, if you're a snitch to get out of it. If you're not snitch and you take the head, then you take the head. If you're in the game, I feel as if you're in the game,

Starting point is 00:26:11 you should be able to take the head. If you are one of those guys that snitches and you know a lot of people, you do very well for yourself. The person that goes to prison is a lot of times the person that he can't, dance nitch because all he's doing is getting him for himself. You know what I mean? He's got nobody to do, you know? So, you know, that's the kind of the problem that I have with the system there is that, you know,

Starting point is 00:26:36 you're doing this guy. He's got a freaking C felony and you're doing him hard. While this guy, I understand he did a couple guys, but, man, freaking two to four for possession. You know what I mean? It's just. This June the world comes to Los Angeles. Kick off FIFA World Cup 2026 at the FIFA fan festival at the iconic Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum. Watch matches live on Giant Scream.

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Starting point is 00:27:49 It kind of threw me off a little bit. Behind closed doors are you guys as cops, you know, laughing at how there really is no honor among a lot of these guys and that they're all kind of flipping on each other and advancing their own causes? Yes. And you know what it seems to be the guys to flip more are the ones that come across is the Billy Badasses. The ones, don't fuck with him.

Starting point is 00:28:08 He'll fucking kill you. All that kind of stuff. And you get him in a room and they're like, blah, blah, blah, blah. They're doing their guy. I did a, we did a wire. It was my wire with a, my own. I see me. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it was when I say it's my wire, those wires are a freaking division thing. You have to have many people to do wires because the surveillance goes

Starting point is 00:28:28 along with it. Working the wire room goes along with it. And it was Jamaican wire. And we had to have people come up from New York City from the FBI that spoke patois. And they were able to interpret the Jamaica, because he's talking, he'd talk in Jamaican. And they were, they would sit there, They stayed at a nice hotel right next door of the FBI headquarters in upstate New York. And they would come in during the day. And all they do is listen to Jamaican all the – and it was the same rule. So let's say they were listening to Jamaican. He was just talking about Jamaica and, you know, I'm going back and all that kind of stuff.

Starting point is 00:29:07 They'd have to go down on the wire. Did you know – you're familiar with that or no? About the wires itself. Yeah. So like if I'm listening to you and you're talking to your wife, all right, okay, Ian's phone just went up. Okay, boom. Listen, right. Hey, honey.

Starting point is 00:29:20 All right, what do I need? I need milk. I need eggs. All right, I'll be home in a little bit. If you're not talking about drugs, I got to go down. I got to go, I got to put it where I'm not listening. It's like first 30 seconds. And then I spot check you.

Starting point is 00:29:31 Okay? So if she's listening, the Jamaican agent is listening to it. And they're talking to Jamaican and they're not talking about narcotic related activity. She's got to go down on it. Same freaking thing. And then she goes spot check it. And you can be talking about drugs. but there was, I mean, you know, even with that, this guy that we did,

Starting point is 00:29:53 and I'm sure with the federal level, you're familiar with the different levels you could be. And this guy with all his charges in past history was a level 42, which I think it was 42. It was the highest level you could be. He was facing life in prison, okay? So when we took him down, he gave his guy up in the city. okay um right there and then ordered up a key they went down FBI in New York uh picked them up with the key this guy was Jamaican our guy that snitched on him said they're going to kill my family in Jamaica he says he goes they're all done he goes but they're on their own like I couldn't

Starting point is 00:30:36 I couldn't imagine doing that you know what I mean if I if there was a possibility of my family being hurt I would take the head if I'm in that business you know what I would take that hit so anyway we rested him. He gave up, we debriefed him every week for a whole year. Two days a week I drive out to Syracuse and I'd go with the FBI agent and we'd pull him out and we debrief him. And we'd also debrief some of the other people that he was with. I'm sorry, that went down on the war. 27 people went down and we would debrief them to see if they wanted to cooperate

Starting point is 00:31:11 or if they wanted to give more information, et cetera, or not. Out of all the 27, three of them went to trial. And our guy testified against three of them, okay? So now remember, he did this guy in New York. He debriefed twice a week for, no, I'm sorry, once a week. Because once a week we debriefed him and the other day we debriefed another prisoner. And then he testified against three of his co-defendants, all right? He got 10 years.

Starting point is 00:31:40 All right. So now, if he did that on the state level and testified against all those people, he would have gotten a county year, okay, because federal level is just huge compared to state. State conspiracy in the state of New York, if you and I conspire to commit a B felony, it's like an E felony. I might be wrong, might be a D.

Starting point is 00:32:02 If you conspire, if you and I are sitting there and they go federal with the charges, you're talking time. And it's hard to win. Oh, yeah, you're done. I mean, when we, in any case, that we did, you know, you were talking about evidence, things like that as far as surveillance and as far as audio.

Starting point is 00:32:23 Anything that we did, we attempted to have recorded and or videotaped. You know what I mean? So this Drug Task Force that I was in was dealing with mid-level to high-level dealers. So when we got these dealers, these low-level guys, we turned them right around and wanted to work with them. I mean, if they did not want to work, then they just kept their local check. charge, you know. But here's the funny thing.

Starting point is 00:32:48 The best snitches that we got were from our nearby mall. Okay. It was in a nice town. And they were all boosting to support their habit. Okay. So we would get the best snitches because they're drug addicts. Okay. We had one guy that was buying drugs, an undercover was buying drugs with clothes.

Starting point is 00:33:13 Okay. So he makes two buys from this guy. And this guy goes, Yo, man, where you get your money, man? And he goes, I boost. And he goes, you boost. It's on tape. He goes, you boost.

Starting point is 00:33:25 And he goes, yeah, I boost, man. And he goes, well, hook me up, man. And he tells him sizes, okay? And then you hear him yelling to his girl. Yo, babe, what's your sizes? Right? She yells the sizes to her, right? So the next day, our cops are shopping.

Starting point is 00:33:42 Okay? They're taking seized money that they got from the DA's office. Okay. And the DA knows all about it. I mean, he doesn't care how you get the drugs. You know, if you're using that money to buy clothes, that'll get drugs. He would come with all the girl sizes, all the guy says, big bag full of stuff, you know, and give it to him. And the guy would give him a certain amount of drugs for the clothes. I've never seen that again.

Starting point is 00:34:05 It was like a barter system, you know. It was cool. That's incredible. Yeah. Now, when you were working corrections, did you encounter a lot of like jailhouse snitches, like guys willing to do stuff to get better accommodations in the jail? No, I don't, no, I don't think I was at that level. You know, being a 20-year-old kid, I worked 20 to 24 there.

Starting point is 00:34:24 I was more corrections, block officer. Corrections is a big turnover rate. So a couple years in a county jail, next thing you know, you're working the hallway. It was a huge, long hallway. It had, I think, 10 blocks. We had about 400 prisoners. And we had about three or four guys. called runners.

Starting point is 00:34:43 So anytime he blocked the runner, block door, you go to black door, get them whatever they wanted. There's a medical assistance call, a fight, anything like that, you would go on that. But, no, it was one of those deals where you had internal affairs that was from the Robitrol.

Starting point is 00:35:00 So if they want, I remember at times bringing guys over to Robitrol. You know what I mean? Like, get prisoner Johnson for mental health and you pull out Johnson and all of a sudden it starts and goes, bring him over to Next Star. You know, so he's under the grounds. He's telling people in the block.

Starting point is 00:35:17 He's out for mental health. And he's really going to snitch. So I know there was people that were telling on people. But as far as me dealing with them particularly where they told me what was going on, no, I didn't really deal with that. What do you think was the most eye-opening thing you saw as a brand new, you know, young kid on the job? The fights that I saw, the severity of the fights. Open my eyes. You know, I grew up around kid fights.

Starting point is 00:35:50 You know what I mean? When you see two men fighting and they're caught and, you know, there's a razor involved and things like that, that opens your eyes quick. The other thing was money. I never realized how much money makes everybody tick. Everybody wants money. It's all prisoners talk about is money, money, money,

Starting point is 00:36:13 making the game, doing the game. guys rapping and, you know, and I got this movie. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that when they get out, all that kind of stuff. And God bless them. I mean, they have things that they're looking forward to, and I hope, I wish them success. But, you know, a lot of them you'd see rotating door in and out, you know.

Starting point is 00:36:33 The thing with the county jail was that, and I know you've had people on before that explained it, but you have people in there that are doing 15 days, and you have people in there that are pre-trial. for a serious charge, murder, whatever, then you have people that are sentenced, and then they're waiting state-ready. So they could wait, stay-ready for two months. Now, all that time counts,

Starting point is 00:36:56 but until, you know, the state says, we'll take you, we'll take you, will take you, they have to sit there in the county jail. So you've got everybody from the minimal charge to the highest charge, and your classification officer has to know what the hell they're doing. They got to make sure that they're putting the prisoners in the proper setting. When I worked in that jail, we had an overcrowding situation.

Starting point is 00:37:19 And we had seven trailers that they attached to the end of the jail. So like at a system like this in a circle. And, you know, the classification officer has got to make sure he's not putting somebody in there that's facing a lot of time. Because it takes two prisoners to pop that back trailer door. I mean, they had it sealed and all that kind of stuff. but come on, give me a break. And it's not like the razor wire that you have in these state prisons and these other, it just seemed like a little bit easier to get around.

Starting point is 00:37:49 So you had to have them properly secured. And I worked, I didn't have pot system. They didn't have a pot system then. It was linear. So bars everywhere. So they had two dorms that were supposed to have 11 prisoners in and turned out that we put 22 in each one. We double bunked them.

Starting point is 00:38:08 And then the, there was, let's see, three blocks that had 32 inmates in each, 16 on each side. Some of them were constant supervision. Some were active supervision. I got a great story about a constant supervision. We had a, I apologize for this. And it's not a priest, but what do you call that the person that's like the Muslim priest? Oh, the imam?

Starting point is 00:38:34 Yeah, okay. Is that the imam? Sorry, if I'm not saying that correctly. Yeah, I apologize for not knowing it. But he comes in and somebody starts to go, call the units for Muslim services. Like I said, running all units, get your Muslim services to the door. Copy A, copy B, copy C, right. Okay.

Starting point is 00:38:51 So Muslim services were mostly black males, okay? And our units that were constant supervision were mostly white people. Now, some of them were out there. Some of them were fucked up, mentally ill. But a lot of white guys were in there because they're punks and they couldn't handle. it'll be in the regular population, okay? They would just get, they know they would get punked down for everything. And some of the white guys in there were child masters.

Starting point is 00:39:18 So, you'd always hear the units that were minority-based units. You'd hear, Baker, I got four at the door. Charlie, I got four at the door, okay? So I'm popping the door, popping the door, walking into the chapel, they're getting in the chapel. All of a sudden I hear, David wanted the door. Now, David is a consubvision unit. 31 of the 32 are white guys, okay?

Starting point is 00:39:43 I popped the door and it's this freaking chomo, right? And I go, it's Muslim services. It's not Catholic service. It's not Protestant service. What are you doing? He goes, I'm going upstate. I go, yeah? He goes, trying to find a home.

Starting point is 00:39:59 He's thinking that the Muslims are going to take care of him. Okay? So he's got the thing in his head. He's got a blanket. He goes into the services, okay? So I doing my normal thing up and down the hallway, and I'm walking by, and they're doing prayers, and he's on his knees, and he's bending all the stuff. And I'm going, there's no way the Muslims are going to accept him once they realize what his charges are. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:40:25 This guy's an idiot. But he thought that he had to attach to some type of group and stay in prison in order to get along. You know what I mean? Once you get that child monster type of stigma on you, you're fucking done. You're cooked. Yeah. You're cooked. Before the university started, I wanted to tell us the trauma story.

Starting point is 00:40:44 And then I got to ask you about the spade story you got to. Okay. That's another story. Give us the trauma one. That's going to blow your mind. So I'm working, David left, and I walk in. I'm at afternoons. I'm working 3.11.

Starting point is 00:40:57 I walk in. I smell sour milk, you know, and piss. You know, I'm thinking, oh, what the hell happened? The guard wasn't gassed. It was this prisoner in cell one. and I said, what happened? He goes, I can't remember the guy's name. I picture his face.

Starting point is 00:41:13 And he goes, ah, they've been freaking gassing this guy all day long. And they go, why? He goes, he's in PC. He's a freaking child monster, right? So, um, because back then we were so packed. We didn't have a PC unit.

Starting point is 00:41:30 If you were a PC, you were locked in a cell. Everything was taken away like you're in a strip cell. Dick swinging, okay? no mattress, steel bunk. You're talking a type of setting that would just make anybody go crazy, okay? Property box gone, no commissary, nothing. PC was as bad as strip cell, okay? But like I said, we didn't have enough.

Starting point is 00:41:54 We had to put them amongst other prisoners. You locked in your cell. And it was bars. It wasn't like a door where you couldn't get anything through. So there was 15 other inmates on that side. So anytime the CO went to do a, a thing to do a tour and he's down to 16 cell, you'd hear a plash,

Starting point is 00:42:10 you know, and then the kid going, ah, right? They're poking him with the broom. They're doing everything they could possibly do this kid. So I get there and I go, I can't take the smell all night. So it was shift change, so everybody's still locked in.

Starting point is 00:42:25 So I pop one cell. I go, one cell, get in the shower. He freaking stink. So he gets in the shower, cleans up. I go, I got a bucket mop. I go, clean your cell. Cleans a cell.

Starting point is 00:42:35 now start to smell a little bit better, right? It's 3.30, 340. I go to do a tour. I walk down on a tour. I hear a splash. I go, oh, no, right? I come back, kids cover. He's got freaking sour milk clinging to his face.

Starting point is 00:42:51 I go, what hell happened? He goes, yo, can I get out of the shower? I go, no, I'm not doing it all freaking night long. I go, you're beat. What am I going to do? Then I found out what he did. Now, no, any degree of child law station, you're done in my book.

Starting point is 00:43:05 But this guy, this guy, this is the guy that changes you. You know what I mean? Like when you look at this guy, it changes your perspective of life. This is a point in my life where I started to look at things differently, okay? He had trouble, I don't know, you might want to cut this because it's bad, but he had trouble penetrating his niece, so he made it bigger with a knife. Holy shit. Yep.

Starting point is 00:43:32 So he deserved everything he fucking got, okay? not only he's a criminal, he's mentally ill, you know what I mean? But to do that, it just changed my life. You know what I mean? You know, that along with a couple of other things in my career really gave me, do you ever see like, you know, they say cops want to sit in a corner of the room and they want to look out and everything. And cops are paranoid.

Starting point is 00:44:03 The cops are that. I call it the cops stare. Do you ever see the cops stare? I'm sure that I've had one stare me down. No, no, not staring you down like profile and anything. I'm talking the retired cop stare. I catch myself doing it where I'm just like this. And things pop into my mind and I get carried away with it.

Starting point is 00:44:21 I start rethinking things. You know what I mean? That's where I think that people, police officers have a problem with their mental health is because they're keeping it in their mind. I run it through my mind, but I'm saying to myself, I can't keep this in my head.

Starting point is 00:44:35 I got to let this go. And I try to, and I let it go. You know what I mean? I have a good support system. I have cops that are retired, cops that are still working that I talk to.

Starting point is 00:44:48 I never go, I've never gone to like a counselor to talk to anybody, but especially when I started in 94 on the road, if you said, oh, this scene's bothering me, I got to go see a counselor.

Starting point is 00:45:00 You know what these cops feel cops say to me? A fucking pussy. Come on, man. Suck it up, right? If you see dead children, you need to talk to somebody about that stuff. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:45:14 You know, Sid's deaths. A woman had a child in a bed that was sick. She rolled over in a bed and suffocated the child on accident. But, you know, you get there at 7 o'clock in the morning. You're getting ready to come home. And all of a sudden, you know, you're like this. And all of a sudden, your adrenaline's pumping because you're flying to a call where they're trying to resuscitate a child. And you get there to a child's

Starting point is 00:45:36 down. So that's where that's where I think of these things that happened in my career. I catch myself doing it. And then I say to myself, you got to let that go. You got to move on in life. You have to, you have to accept it happened and you have to move on life. Because if I continually think about it, it puts me in a mood. You know what I mean? It depresses me. Yeah. I mean, I'm the same way when I hear some of these stories, like I feel for these people. Well, you know, so there's stories like that, but the story that bothered me, that bothers me is I was a sergeant. I made it up to captain, but I was a sergeant the first time. I was sergeant twice.

Starting point is 00:46:18 I actually got in trouble, and they took my rank away from me, and I built it back up. Okay, that's another whole podcast. A police captain, you became. We can't retire as a police captain. Okay. But at the time, I was a sergeant. So sergeants are on the road. We're like the patrol supervisor, okay?

Starting point is 00:46:36 And I get sent to, and we go to those serious calls. So I get sent to possible unintended death. We will get them working midnight. So we'd get them in the morning, 6, 7 o'clock when, you know, they realized grandpa had a heart attack. Okay. So I'm thinking it's something like that. We get there and I walk up the stairs. And it's a poorer section of town.

Starting point is 00:46:55 I walk up the stairs and there's a fire department. It's right behind the fire department. So the fire department was there quick. And one of the guys comes out that I, I know, and he goes like this, no good. So I look in the bathroom and there's a woman that a lot of people, a lot of people die on the toilet. I don't know if you knew it or not.

Starting point is 00:47:17 When they're starting to feel as if they're going to die, they have a feeling like they got to evacuate. And they get on the toilet. So I was thinking it was one of those. Well, she was sick. She had a poor, pork came out, blood all over the place. mess. So I look in the bathroom. I see her clearly, you know, deceased. She must have done this in the middle of the night. Husband found her. Now, it's just her husband standing there, and he's got his

Starting point is 00:47:40 six-year-old son standing next to him. And he's wearing pajamas, reminded me of my son, okay? And he's going, why aren't they taking her? Why aren't they taking her? And I go, sir, can I talk to you for a minute in the other room just me and you? Because I, it's my responsibility as a sergeant. I got to let him know his wife passed away, okay? And there's going to be people coming to investigate, there's going to be pictures taking, et cetera. And the kids clinging on to his leg. Well, I got really good officers working with me.

Starting point is 00:48:08 They're trying to get the boys' attention. Hey, come over here, come with me. Come on outside. I want to show you the police car, all that kind of stuff, okay? He's not budging. He's not his father's leg. And I go, hey, can you go with the officer? I go, you know.

Starting point is 00:48:19 And he's not leaving. I go, and he goes, well, just tell me. He goes, why aren't they taking him? I go, sir, can I talk to you in the room? Finally, he goes, just tell me what's going on. So I finally had to say. So I go, she didn't make it, sir, right? And I look down and I see this freaking six-year-old's eyes.

Starting point is 00:48:36 And he didn't know what I fucking met. You know what I mean? And he got welled up like I am now. And I just ruined this kid. But, you know, those words I just fucking said, I ruined him. How does a child move on from that? Six years old or not, 10 years old or not, to tell them their mother just died in the bathroom.

Starting point is 00:48:57 You know what I'm saying? He didn't see the baby. blood. Now, we close the door, of course, and we treated her with respect and all that. But, you know, to tell somebody that and have, to tell it to an adult is one thing. But to tell it and have a child absorbed that and realize that I am the person that said those words where that kid heard that, that freaking left a mark in me. You know, I mean, that really did. I went home. I could not sleep all day. You know what I mean? I had a couple of bears. You know, it was my wife was working during the day. So my son was in school. So it was one of those days where I was by myself. I'm not saying that I felt like I was going to hurt myself or anything like that, but it just sucked, you know.

Starting point is 00:49:42 And then it's one of those things where like the firemen will always say, hey, we get our trouble out at the kitchen table. Well, we get our trouble out at coffee shops. You know what I mean? So that night I had a couple cups of coffee with my buddy and we talked about it. You know what I mean? And I felt better. and he said words that made me feel better.

Starting point is 00:50:00 But still, you know, this is, this, I'm, this was 20-something years ago. This person's now an adult, you know what I mean? And it's still stuck in me. So, you know, you think about these cops and these correction officers that have seen all these things, okay? And, you know, I know that as a prisoner, people have seen things, but they mostly seen adults getting hurt and killed. It's different when you see a child killed in a car accident. it. You see drowning. You see Sid's deaths. It's different. It's not the same. It's not as an adult. As an adult, you know, like an overdose or things like that. You know, nobody, of course,

Starting point is 00:50:40 wants to see anybody died, but they're like nobody forced a needle in their arm. You know what I mean? With a child, it's innocent. Looking to start 2026 with an unforgettable getaway. Fiji Airway's sale is on now. Fly nonstop round trip to Fiji from just six. or enjoy a sunny Fiji stopover on your way to Australia with round-trip fairs starting from 839. As a one-world alliance member and American Airlines Advantage program partner, your miles go further across the South Pacific. Book now at Fiji Airways.com or contact your local travel agent. Conditions apply. So that sticks in you.

Starting point is 00:51:23 It's also very one-sided from like an inmate's perspective because they don't really ever think to care about what you went through or what you saw. Like a fight between two inmates that resolves in someone dying, you're only looking at it yourself. You're not thinking about the correctional officers who had to clean up the mess or who responded to the call. You're not thinking about any of that. Even if you're out on the street committing a crime, the agents that showed up to that,

Starting point is 00:51:48 the law enforcement officers that showed up to that. Right. Yeah, exactly. You know, my father always said 10% of everything is assholes. And so when I say, here and I tell you that if I make it sound like, oh, this guy, we've been through, you know, I would say guys that have done 20 years, I've seen a pretty good amount. I've did 34. But if I sit here and tell you that every correction officer and every patrol officer

Starting point is 00:52:16 are good people, that's a lie. There's some people that I would not let investigate a crime against my family. Who's investigating that? No, no. We're having, I'm giving, we're going to somebody else is doing this, okay? I've, as a captain, I've taken people off of cases that I know suck and put in a patrolman that knows going to do a good job. So, you know, if you think about it, I had 77 officers. What's 10% of that? It's about right. Okay?

Starting point is 00:52:42 You know, in the jail, you know, we had guys that treated people like shit. We had guys that talked down to people. We had guys that would mess with people, you know, leave them the fuck alone, man. Let them do their time. Like I said, the child molester, do whatever fuck you got to do. them. I don't care. I mean, when they say that the inmates take care of child molesters, I agree with that. I agree with that. I honestly think that correction officers will turn to the side and they're not paying attention. Like they don't see nothing. That's selective sight,

Starting point is 00:53:14 selective hearing. And I have used that. I'll be the first to tell you. I've used that with child messers. Do what you got to do these freaking guys. Same thing with like elderly. I don't have any, you know, you know, you doing something? I have a problem with a victim. You know what I mean? like a legitimate victim. Adults, I don't really get too much thinking about it, but like a mentally challenged person, if you're screwing with somebody, or if you're screwing with an elderly person

Starting point is 00:53:40 or if you're screwing with a child, that to me is like a true victim. And I don't care for that. Anything else that really happened, that's on you. And if you made that mistake, then, you know, get your second chance and straighten yourself out. You know, like the many stories that have been on here that you've talked about where these guys talked about where they're starting rehabs and things

Starting point is 00:54:01 like that. I hear that stuff. I'm like, that's freaking wonderful. I mean? But, you know, there's people out there that would be like, you know, thinking, ah, this guy must be an idiot. He's sticking a needle in his arm and things like that.

Starting point is 00:54:14 No, there's people that have been on pain for their knees, done that opiate, okay, done that hydro, whatever it is. And the doctors cut them off. And actually, you know, they're freaking. they're dope sick and they're using heroin. I can see that happen into people, can't you? People that are intelligent people, you know? They don't want to be sick, so they start doing it.

Starting point is 00:54:38 It happens to average everyday people. Every day people. All the time. Yeah. And, you know, you, like I said in the beginning of interview, I didn't have that benefit of the doubt type of sense before. these 34 years have taught me that that we are all the same. We make mistakes.

Starting point is 00:55:04 We get to forks in the road where you took the wrong fork. You were raised differently than me. You didn't have the proper people backing you. Not saying that you could have a great life and still make mistakes. I'm not saying that. Or be the type of person that thinks they can do whatever the frick they want to. There are people out there that are like that. There are narcissists people out there that.

Starting point is 00:55:24 just do what they want to do. And there are prisoners out there that need to be locked away for the rest of their freaking lives. There's people that are very dangerous people that are incarcerated. But on the flip side of that, there are people that have made mistakes. And I never thought of that when I first started. I never thought of that. Like, I'd have friendships with people in there.

Starting point is 00:55:46 You know, like you had a jailer on that was talking about how he'd eat, the noodles out of a bag. Nathan Carter. I'm not going to eat noodles out of a bag. But I have, if I got a guy that comes out and I had a guy he was, did 25 years,

Starting point is 00:56:04 he killed a drug rival. And he'd come out and he would do a little cleaner for me. And I'd give him half my sub. Okay? And we talk and, you know, we talk about women and girls

Starting point is 00:56:18 and growing up and stuff like that. He was my age. He was from New York, came up here, because when you are in New York and you're selling drugs, you come up here to upstate New York, you're talking three times the amount of money you can make. It's a four-hour trip.

Starting point is 00:56:32 Okay? So he got caught up here and went to our county jail and, well, he got into a drug rivalry thing, but went to jail and he would do, he did 25 years. And I tell you, I'll tell you, I like, I would look for, oh, I'm working Baker today. Oh, I talk to Reggie. Good. I like, I look forward to it. You know, that guy that we took down on the wire.

Starting point is 00:56:54 I became friends with him. I was talking to him once a week for hours. You know what I mean? And he was a nice guy. Like, he, we would, me and the FBI, he would bring him, like, you know, he had his handcuffs on in the back seat. After the thing, we'd bring him to the Kentucky Chicken Drive-Thru, a Burger King Drive-Ther. Here's your food, you know? Like, we both liked them, you know?

Starting point is 00:57:15 But we had to do our job, you know what I mean? But, you know, we treated him. I thought we treated him fairly. You know what I mean? He was appreciative of the fact that we treated him with respect. And he kind of looked at it like he was a game. Like a chess game, like, all right, okay, we got you, checkmate. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:57:32 We got you. This time. You know, next time you might get away with that, you know. And that's the kind of way I looked at it. You know, there was guys that were dealing drugs and doing this and doing that. I'm like, eventually we'll get them. You know what I mean? And when we did, you know, I treated him fairly.

Starting point is 00:57:50 in the beginning I'm not saying I treated them not fairly but in the beginning I wasn't talking to him like you're a human being you know what I mean I was you know rude

Starting point is 00:58:02 you know get in the fucking car go to the station get out come on we got to process you let's go you know and then you're realizing

Starting point is 00:58:08 he's in the judicial system now this isn't you who are you to judge you present the charges you present the crime you try to present it where there's there's beyond a reason doubt, correct? You do all that. If you got him at this point, treat him with respect to

Starting point is 00:58:27 dignity. You know what I mean? As long as he's not an asshole to you, don't be an asshole to him. And I learn that throughout the years. And I'm hoping that people that watch this podcast, newer officers realize that that I'm not saying you can, you got to be a punk and not have a backbone. Have a backbone. Run your zone. Run your block. Okay. But doing it in a manner where you treat people fairly. Just give him respect. And you're going to find out that you get a lot more. with that. You get a lot less trouble. No, you were just mentioning about rehabilitation

Starting point is 00:58:55 and guys that should be in prison for life. Yeah. What do you feel about the, or how do you feel about the Menendez brotherson? Oh, about how it's coming back to... For re-sentencing. Do you feel like they should get out after 35 years? So I listen to a little bit of that.

Starting point is 00:59:10 Is it because the fact is that there's, they're molested? Is that what's going on? That's a big piece of it, yeah. And they killed... All right, so then there was a problem with the fact that the one went back in and put more rounds into the mother, I think, or something like that? I'm not sure those specifics, but I do know that they're revisiting it, one, because of their

Starting point is 00:59:28 prison record. They're like of how they haven't had any violence or they've been rehabilitated, but two, because there was those reasons that they were molested, which I don't think ever made it into trial, or there were some things that didn't make into trial. Yeah. But then on the flip side, and this is where I'm interested in like your, you know, law enforcement background. It was premeditated. They did plan it. Right. Anybody that could kill anybody, it makes me, and premeditated, makes me think that

Starting point is 00:59:58 something, something's not clicking up there. You know what I mean? Like, let's say they release them. I don't want to be neighbors with them. You know what I mean? I'm not going to lie to you. It's one hell of a chance they're taken as far as release them because of the premeditation thing. But then again, I mean, there's so many, so much to that argument. But, you know, they were molested. What are you going to do if you're molested? Would you kill a person that molested you? I probably would.

Starting point is 01:00:23 You know what I mean? I severely injure them, you know? So there's so much to it. Whoever makes the decision, judge that makes the decision, I pray for them. Because can you imagine making that decision and they get out and then they do something horrific again? You know what I mean? I don't know the 100% particulars of the case. But do I think that there has something.

Starting point is 01:00:47 to do with the molestation causing them homicides? Yeah, of course. And to revisit it, that's fine. Revisit it. Were they talking about retrying them? No, the prosecutor recommended resentencing. But now it's got to go to a court. So a court's got to decide whether or not to pick it up or not. Yeah. This is in California, right? California. They'll pick it up. Yeah, they'll pick it up. Yeah, they'll pick it up. Like I said, I just don't know what it's going to be like as far as, and they did 35 years, right? Yeah. For a double homicide?

Starting point is 01:01:21 Yeah, but there's also plenty of those types of victims that don't go and kill their abusers, too, on kind of like the flip side of it. Yeah. You know, it's a, it's definitely a gray area. It's definitely gray. And I just, and I feel for the person that has to make that decision. It's scary. The Spade story.

Starting point is 01:01:40 Yeah. So I'm on midnight shift. And to break up the monotony, they would switch us every half hour. Okay? Like, let's say you started in David left and I started at David right, 16 inmates, 16 inmates, 12 o'clock, 12.30, I go to David left. You go down to Henry left. I go to David left. Half an hour later, I go to Henry left, you go to Henry right.

Starting point is 01:02:03 Okay, I'm following you all night. This guy's following me all night. So I'm in Adam Wright dorm, and it's wintertime. And I'm right near the heater. and it's like 3 o'clock in the morning. And there's 20, remember I was telling you? It was a dorm that had 11 prisoners and they had 22 in there.

Starting point is 01:02:17 It was double bunked. 20 of them were sleeping. And I see in front of me, two guys playing spades. And remember how they would drop them up, bam, it's down the table. They smack them on that picnic table. So I'm hearing this, bam,

Starting point is 01:02:33 and the lights are out. It's just night lights on. These little brown little dimmy-ass lights that are above you. So I'm like this. and these two guys are there, and I fell asleep. I got to lie to it. I must have, you know, one of those kinds of things.

Starting point is 01:02:50 Dangerous is all hell. I get it, but I'm a human. And you try getting in there. Midnight shift is not met for people to, the human body is meant to sleep during the night, okay? I don't care if you slept eight hours during the day. You're still going to be tired at midnight shift, okay? So, and the heat's gone, and I'm like, so I must have fell asleep.

Starting point is 01:03:08 Well, I wake up to the, sound of moaning, okay? Ah, oh, right? So I go, what the fuck? I look. Two prisoners are gone, right? It's a dorm that's got a fence and a walk way through it and there's 22 prisoners. And then this part is two sinks, two showers in a bathroom.

Starting point is 01:03:29 And there's a heavy set curtain that's separate, that's the shower. And it's right next to the bars. So I'm thinking to myself, if I call for a fucking assistance, or whatever, right? They're going to be like, why did you let them in the shower in the first place? Okay, where were you, right? I had to admit that I was sleeping, right? So I'm like, I'm not going to do that.

Starting point is 01:03:53 This is like a two-second thing in my mind, okay? I'm going, what the fuck do I do, right? So I go, and I just moved the thing a little bit, and I realize what hell is going on, right? And I go, hurry the fuck up. Right? like get it over with, right? So all of a sudden, they stop, they realize that I caught them, right?

Starting point is 01:04:17 And then they go to their bunks. And the whole time I'm like, holy fuck, where am I freaking working? I got to get out of this fucking place. But it was one of those deals where if the prisoners, I'm sorry, if the COs came back there, I would have got my balls broken, you know what I mean? So then the guy comes in to relieve me,

Starting point is 01:04:34 he follows me. It's like, everybody's sleeping? I'm like, yeah, everything's good, everybody's quiet. I'm freaking that was it. But, you know, and that's the whole thing with like, I don't know how it is in the federal level, but the whole, everybody thinks that, oh, you're going to county jail, you drop, don't drop the soap on that. I never saw. What I saw was if you want, if you were homosexual, you were homosexual and you could do whatever you wanted to do. But there was, I never witnessed anybody getting, like, taken from or reported anything like that.

Starting point is 01:05:07 You know what I mean? I never heard of any type of rapes, at least at the county. level. I don't know if it's like that at the state, but it seemed as if you were gay or any way like that, there was always somebody that they could be with. Yeah, I think it's more consensual than people would think, not that inmates can technically give consent, but from what I've seen, there are some stories I've heard where it's not consensual, but that's also at like higher penitentiary levels or anything like that. But most of the time it is consensual. Yeah, and I definitely believe that there's intimidation. I definitely

Starting point is 01:05:40 the guys are getting their commissary taken and all that. There's extortion more than anything. I definitely believe that, yeah. I saw that in my own eyes one time. I was in Baker and I was putting in the trays, and this guy comes up and he gets his tray. And there was two white guys and 14 black guys. And one of the white guys is still to this day of badass, okay?

Starting point is 01:06:06 And nobody fucked with him. knew all that karate crap but he was also a street fighter. So the guy, the other guy, the other white guy takes his tray. And I'm giving the trays out and I'm checking off Johnson, Bick, Riley, whatever, okay, I'm checking out. So then all of a sudden the white guy comes to the thing

Starting point is 01:06:25 and he goes, yeah, I need a tray. And I go, I gave you a tray. And he goes, and he's looking like this. I go, if you got punked down for your tray, that's on you, my man. I can't, what do you want me to do? You know, right? So then I hear him talking to the other white guy. And the other white guy goes, go deal with it.

Starting point is 01:06:40 He goes, it's going to be one-on-one. So now the guy that's representing the black guys comes over. And the white guy says, it's going to be one-on-one. He goes, I'm not letting him get jumped. He goes, it's going to be one-on-one. If he's got to handle it, he's going to handle it. But it's not going to be one. So they start fighting while another brother jumps in.

Starting point is 01:07:01 Another brother jumps in. And then this white guy is like, no, it ain't happening. And I'm telling you, it was like, watching a freaking Bruce Lee movie. It was like, you know, you know, Bruce Lee movies where he's fighting, and he's waiting for the next guy to come in? And in real life, prisoners, or fights,

Starting point is 01:07:20 they'll just jump you, you know what I'm saying? It's not one of those deals where, okay, Ian's down. All right, this guy's coming in now. You know what I mean? It's not like that. That's what it was like in this fight. That's the way it looked like to me. It was like, this guy's handling one guy,

Starting point is 01:07:30 he handles him, and he's handled another. And I'm slowly calling for assistance. I'm like, Baker, I need assistance here. I got to fight. I was one of the best street fights I've ever seen in my life, you know. But, yeah, it was a learning experience. It really was. County jail molded me in so many ways.

Starting point is 01:07:49 Gave you great on-the-job experience. Great on-the-job experience. Would I do it again? Fuck, no. It's not a great place to work. That's why they have so many issues hiring on the corrections level. But I bet you it would be solvable if they made policing a prerequisite, you know, working corrections. You'd have less police off.

Starting point is 01:08:07 Well, but you have a lot of older school. Like, if you were to start it now, I think you have police officers, like the middle-aged, older guys that are still on the force now. You get the younger guys to do a couple of years in correction than they're going into the force. Yeah. You know, you have so much more success in your law enforcement, your role patrol type of setting, if you had officers that did jail time. you'd have just you'd have the so many more confessions in my opinion you'd have so much more cooperation from people the other thing is that you know the empathy that people have towards towards people if you can develop an empathy for a prisoner that's that's

Starting point is 01:08:55 incarcerated you can develop an empathy for anybody okay It's hard to understand. But like what I'm saying is that, you know, you've got a guy that's done a crime. And like I said in the beginning of interview, in the beginning when I started, I had an attitude that you're guilty. You know what I mean? You're a piece of shit. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 01:09:15 And now, you know, as you got time on, I'm realizing, you know, this is, this is a decent person. You know what I mean? I've had inmates that tried to play me. You know what I mean? Like, talk to me for this or that, a couple minutes. Like, you know, man, you bring me in some smokes? I'm like, I mean, bring the fuck. It's why I get jammed up, you know?

Starting point is 01:09:33 But, so you have that aspect. I get all that. But there's legit guys in there that are decent people to hang out with. And, you know, you're on your way home from work and you're like, you know, I spend eight hours talking to a freaking good dude, man, you know. And that made me feel better, a little bit better in life, too, because prior to that, I'm thinking, You know, wow, man, when these inmates get released from jail, you know, who are they going to hurt next? You know what I mean? That's not necessarily the case.

Starting point is 01:10:07 You know what I'm saying? I'm not saying county jail rehabs anybody or state does, but a lot of these guys come out and are straight. You know, they're doing the right thing. Some of them go back into the game. We all know that. But there's a good handful of people that do the right thing. And I enjoy seeing that success. You know what I mean? Who am I to judge?

Starting point is 01:10:35 Being 55 years old now, I've come to conclusion that I'm not God, you know, and people are going to do what they've got to do in life and they're going to answer to what they have done. You know, so who am I to sit here and say, I'm not, you know, you're, you've got tattoos all over you and, you know, and your hair is not the way. way that I don't hang out with guys that style their hair like that, you know what I mean?

Starting point is 01:11:06 Or, you know, you're gay or you're this, you're that. Who the fuck am I to judge somebody? I'm nobody, man. You know what I mean? I want to treat everybody fairly and nice. I'm done having an attitude towards anything. I'm done with all that shit. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 01:11:24 If you're cool with me, I'm cool with you. I don't care. You can have your opinion about me all you want. I'm you know there's there's times where the jobs the job that I'm working now where I'm friends with people that other people are not friends with and they're looking at me like how you talk about that guy he's fucking weird I'm like oh where he's a nice guy I don't think I'm having over for dinner you know I mean but but he's a nice guy you know um you know so I kind of like what that career did for me now in my life you know the thoughts in my mind of the bad situations I don't like what it did to me there but I like what it did to me to realize that life is extremely fragile, that live your life, enjoy yourself, enjoy others. Don't judge, okay? Let people be people, let them do what they want to do.

Starting point is 01:12:17 If they do something fucking wrong, they got to answer to St. Peter Sunday at that gate. It ain't me. That St. Peter has got to talk to them about what they did in life, not me. So, you know, as long as you're not hurting me or my family or my circle, I'm okay with you, you know. And I try to portray that to my friends, you know, like they get stressed out over a little shit. You know, I'm like, it's fucking money, dude. You'll figure it out.

Starting point is 01:12:45 You know what I mean? You're not eating noodles and noodles. You know what I'm saying? You'll get through this, you know? And I think that this law enforcement career has given me that in my mind. I think I'm living a better life than others now because of, of my mindset. I'm enjoying it.

Starting point is 01:13:03 You know what I mean? Like I live in the moment because I realize how fragile it is. It could be taken away from you in a fucking heartbeat. You know, I've seen people that their kids go on Halloween in a car with their buddies and they freaking die in a car accident.

Starting point is 01:13:16 You know what I mean? And their fucking life changes like that. So I'm not living like that. I'm living my life. Like everybody's going to know that I love, that I love them. Everybody's going to know that I care for them. I'm, my dopamine is giving and, and helping people out, you know, um, you know, people that are

Starting point is 01:13:35 having issues with money, I'll help out. I got a buddy and mine that's going through divorce. Come in and move with me, buddy. You won't owe me nothing. I don't want nothing from you. I just want you to get your shit together and get going in life again. You know what I mean? I, I, I, I like the fact that I look at life like that, you know, um, like I'm divorced, I'm dating a girl, but I'm not in any hurry like. I feel as if I have to be married. I feel as if I had to have somebody to live with me. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 01:14:02 I got my dog. I got things that I do. You know what I'm saying? I'm enjoying life, man. You know? Like, everybody's, like, if Harris gets in, we're fucked. If Trump gets in, we're fucked. We're fucked.

Starting point is 01:14:15 Come on, man. We live in America, dude. You know what I mean? I understand. There's problems. But, I mean, I got some people who are telling me, if Harris lives, we'll be speaking Chinese in six months. No, we're not, dude.

Starting point is 01:14:26 You know what I mean? Freaking Chinese is not going to take it. It's over. Give me a freaking break. You know what I mean? And I, you know, I try to get these people to relax. You're in America. I mean, there's people that don't eat every day.

Starting point is 01:14:37 You know what I mean? You know, I mean, I came in here. We had a great time. I had an energy drink. You know what I'm saying? I'm sitting in a beautiful chair that I'm taking it with me. I hate to tell you, I'm taking this figure with me. You wish.

Starting point is 01:14:48 Holy shit. This chair is nice. But you know what I'm saying, though? Like, you have to look at everything in a perspective like that. And people aren't doing that. I've learned that the hard way. I'm more patient now than ever. You know, I used to be very impatient.

Starting point is 01:15:00 And even when I got out of prison, I don't, I learned it over time. Yeah. And now it's less about like instant gratification, more playing the long game. Yeah. Like people are like, I'll meet a celebrity and everyone's like, oh, get them on the show, this and that. Yeah. To me, it doesn't matter. I'm still living my life.

Starting point is 01:15:17 They're living theirs. Right. It'll happen eventually. See, and nothing against celebrities, but like, I wouldn't mind. Some of the pictures out there are cool. If I met some of those guys, it'd be great. but like they're still people. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 01:15:29 Like, I enjoy meeting. I would enjoy meeting them. But like, and you know, those people enjoy listening to your stories. Like the individuals to sit in the chairs,

Starting point is 01:15:38 they listen to the show, they watch the clips. You know, I was talking to Jelly Roll and he's like, dude, I love your stuff. Like,

Starting point is 01:15:43 I watch the clips. Well, that's another thing. Think about Jelly Roll, okay? Like he's got the tats and this and that. Who is this guy?

Starting point is 01:15:50 Right? And he opens his mouth, and you're like, this guy's talent. This guy's pretty freaking good. And then he opens his mouth and he's a nice guy. It's a good dude.

Starting point is 01:15:57 It's a good dude, right? That post Malone, holy crap, that guy's nice. Yeah, there's a lot of good dude. You see the way he treats his fans? Gives him his shoes all the freaking time to these guys, signs him, walks through issues. So that's what I'm talking about. You gotta be nice. Every person that walks in, I always offer them the studio over there that's down the hall.

Starting point is 01:16:15 Yeah. You guys want to use it. It costs nothing but my time to just, you know, let you use it. Right. I don't even make money from that. I got my thing. I'm in my lane. I'm doing my thing.

Starting point is 01:16:23 Right. And I'll help you. It's all about helping because no one helped me. when I was the nightclub owner. Everyone took advantage of me. Everyone was using me to make money. So if I could give back in a little way like that, then I'm going to do that.

Starting point is 01:16:36 Nowadays, if you have somebody that does that to you, do you drop them like that? Because I do. If somebody's using me, by. I just don't let them in close enough to use. I don't let them in close enough. Oh, you know? How do you know, though?

Starting point is 01:16:49 How do you trust them, though? How do you develop that trust if you can't let them in? You know what I mean? In order you got to let them in order to be able to develop that trust or not? I think it depends on what they asked me for. So, like, people will ask me for a direct favor. Like, hey, can you introduce me to so-and-so? And I won't do that, but I'll put you in the room so you can make that connection yourself.

Starting point is 01:17:09 Can you help me, you know, make money on my podcast? Me, no, I won't put in that work to do it for you. But I'll give you the tools that you need to go and do it on your own. I think that weeds out a lot, too. Right. Like, if you offer someone, like, if someone wants to come on and they'll be like, hey, can you promote my book or whatever, right? Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 01:17:28 I won't personally do that, but you could come on the podcast and share your story and you have my platform to use. Yeah. If your dad bod has become a bad bod, lose the belly bulge with Alma said, the superfood protein shake that helps you lose up to nine pounds in a month naturally with amino acids to help unclog your liver and optimize your metabolism while maintaining lean muscle mass, gain energy and self-confidence. And try Alma said, proven by 31 university studies. Get started with Almisad for just $39.99. Less than $4 per protein shake. Go to almased.com. That's al-M-A-S-E-D.com.

Starting point is 01:18:04 But then, you know, you've got to meet me halfway with that. Right, right, right, right. So I think that weeds out a lot of stuff too. Okay. Well, like in regular life, if I noticed that somebody, you know, I have three good guy friends. I have acquaintances, you know what I mean? But that's it. Like, I have a guy, a fair weather friend.

Starting point is 01:18:22 if everything's good for him, he'll help you out. But if he's got something going on, he won't sacrifice shit for you. You know what I mean? And I've learned that. I'm still friends with him. I'm a queen's with him. I talk to him.

Starting point is 01:18:34 But I realize that if he's got something better, he's going to that. You know what I mean? He's not going to sacrifice for me. So, you know, the three guys that I look at, like are really good friends, I stick with him. You know, I stay around people that have good attitudes,

Starting point is 01:18:51 you know, you know if you're one of those people that's pessimistic and the world's going to end tomorrow and all that kind of stuff you know i don't i kind of i hate negativity i need away from you i get a complainers i cannot stand a complainer right if someone starts complaining about like i'll have i'll have dms from people yeah where they're like complaining hey can you help me out this this and that it's like man i was in a worse position than you were and i dug myself out of that. Right. You know,

Starting point is 01:19:22 like you could do that too. Right. Well, that's what I was talking about how I lost my stripes. I was a sergeant on the road and they, and they had a prisoner one night

Starting point is 01:19:31 to make long story short, they said I used too much to force on a prisoner. I disagree with that, but it happened. I mean, I got jammed up. So I got moved back to patrolmen.

Starting point is 01:19:41 And those were dark days. Okay? Where I was talking to my pillow. You know what I mean? Well, it's got things. And, you know, my wife at the time and things like that, and to go as a supervisor and then go back. I mean, I was a senior man, but still go back and work with the guys that you supervised.

Starting point is 01:19:59 It was freaking hard. And I had friends that helped me get through it. And I thanked them for that to this day. But I started taking the sergeant's test again after a year of being punished. You couldn't take it for a year. Took it. Scored reachable, reachable, third year, reachable fourth year, reachable fourth year, reachable fifth year.

Starting point is 01:20:19 I got interviewed five times got turned down. Finally, on the sixth time, I got made sergeant again, okay? And then a couple years later made lieutenant, and then a couple years later made captain. And looking back, I wouldn't want to do that again, but looking back and I'm proud of myself that I put my fucking head down, sucked it up, even if I disagreed with what they did to me, okay?

Starting point is 01:20:49 sucked it up and and continued on. I could have stayed as a freaking asshole patrolman, wrote my one ticket a freaking week, you know what I mean, and stayed on midnights. I could have done all that, but I didn't. And I'm very proud of myself that I pushed forward through that and retired the way I did. You know, I was thinking on the way here,

Starting point is 01:21:15 you're talking about your sticky notes. Do you remember that one episode you're talking about, Oh, you have a bunch of sticky notes. I like my sticky notes. I used to get my balls broken in narcotics because I had sticky notes all over the place. Well, now with my phone, I put in everything. Like, literally, I had you in my phone for a month

Starting point is 01:21:31 where Saturday go to Ian's, you know? And I don't know what I do without that freaking phone, right? But I thought about the fact that my ability to organize things and my ability to... get things in the way I want them to be, created that second success for me. You know what I mean? If I was not organized the way that I am, and if I didn't have that initiative to say, fuck you, you're not keeping me as a figure.

Starting point is 01:22:04 I'm coming back, motherfucker. You know what I mean? If I didn't have, if I didn't, I don't think if I had that background of needing things the way they needed to be, having the self-respect for myself, realizing that, if I retired a patrolman, I would be looking in the mirror the rest of my fucking life going, man, you fucked up, you know? And getting to come back up in that, that was huge to me. I'm not saying that to stay as a patrolman is a bad thing.

Starting point is 01:22:33 I'm not. There's patrolmen that are senior guys that we need as patrolmen. They run a frickin, they run a great zone, okay? They know what they're doing, and they just don't want to become sergeant. So I'm not saying to be a patrolman. There's no disrespect. I don't mean anything like that at all. But I wasn't one of them.

Starting point is 01:22:52 I wanted to be part of the upper echelon. I wanted to be of a higher rank because my father was a higher rank. He passed away. But when he passed away, he was a higher rank. My uncles, all that, my cousins. But, you know, I kind of wanted that thing when I retired where, hey, he's retired captain. You know what I mean? I'm not going to lie to it.

Starting point is 01:23:17 It makes me feel good when somebody refers to me as a retired captain. You know, like I feel as if they look at me like I've had some success in life. And especially having that trouble then coming back up, makes me feel even better, you know? My girlfriend breaks my balls and says I'm too much into titles. But I'm not, but I don't know. I kind of am.

Starting point is 01:23:39 But you earn that. That's part of your journey, you know? Yeah, yeah. You know, and like right now, so like I'll break your shots and I'll be like, you will do this because I'm a captain like that breaking balls, right? I go, that's a fucking order, right? And she'll say,

Starting point is 01:23:53 she'll say, you're a security guard. Because I'm retired now, I'm a security guard, you know? I got a fucking stupid-ass badge. It's a security guard on it now. It's corny as hell, you know what I mean? But it's a great retirement gig. I fricking, you know, I don't do shit.

Starting point is 01:24:07 I turn a freaking couple light switches on. I work in an outpatient mental health clinic. The clinicians are freaking solid. They keep these people tweaked. That's another thing. that I never realized in law enforcement was that the outpatient care that we have for mental health, and I live in a community that the big city is 65,000 people, the second city is 35,000 people, okay, just to give you an idea of people.

Starting point is 01:24:32 It's not crazy. But we have a clinic that has got 30 clinicians that are basically working full-time, that people are coming in. for shots and coming in for counseling and coming in for their scripts to be refilled. People that are coming in that are dressed in suits, okay, that are dressed, that are people of, it's not these people that you think are going to be the normal people that come in a health clinics. Mental health clinics, these outpatient mental health clinics are keeping this chaos to a level that's livable, okay? There are so many people that have been diagnosed, and people argue, say, oh, today, too many people

Starting point is 01:25:15 are dies. I don't think they are what they are. I think there's overdiagnosis. I don't know. That's another argument. But these people that come in, they keep them tweaked, okay? Because I notice when people come in and they haven't been seen in a year,

Starting point is 01:25:32 okay? And they're not under their meds. Because what happens is, I was told this by these clinicians, they take their meds, they start feeling better, they don't think they need it. They stop taking them. And then they resurfaces. Okay. So when they come into this clinic, sometimes there's a lot of issues. And the psychiatrists will say to me, next time they come in, watch, they'll be a different person.

Starting point is 01:25:55 Next time they come in, they're sitting there. Hi, I'm, you know, John Smith for two o'clock appointment with Dr. Stevens. Okay, John, take a seat. And he says, you know what I mean? You're like, this is the guy from a month ago that was losing his mind. We had to calm him down. You know what I mean? So I never realize, I give respect to these mental health people that are keeping this chaos at a level that's doable.

Starting point is 01:26:22 So if I'm dealing with 20 to 30 clinicians in my little small town, can you imagine what it's like here and what it's like in the city? You know what I mean? How many people are dealing with us? I never realized that. Did you? I never realized that there was that much outpatient mental health. And that's not talking impatient. I mean, these are people that are around us that are, you know, coming in and they're getting, I mean, we have three nurses that are giving shots every day, all day long, you know.

Starting point is 01:26:50 So I give credit to that. I never, I never thought. And then the other thing is emergency rooms. Like first responders, out of first responders, and I know that they're not first responders, but I think that corrections number one is the most underrated profession in. law enforcement. They are not getting enough credit. I'll say that 100 times a day. They're not getting enough credit. Anytime somebody posts anything about correction officer, correction officer week, I always type, they're the most underappreciated people in the world, okay? I'm not talking about the asshole correction officers. I'm talking about the guys that are doing the right,

Starting point is 01:27:29 guys and gals that are doing the right thing, okay? But when it comes to other things, your EMT guys, your ambulance guys, okay? You're, your firemen. your mental health, your outpatient mental health, your mobile crisis assessment teams that come in and analyze somebody. One thing people forget is emergency rooms. Because when you, or 2 o'clock in the morning, and you have that person that is gone out there and cutting their wrist, and that,

Starting point is 01:27:59 you bring them to the emergency room for medical, yes. But guess what? They stay in a psych until a place is able to take them. You know what I mean? So these nurses and doctors in the emergency room, the pressure that these guys have through dealing with these problems, I give them credit too.

Starting point is 01:28:15 I really do. I think it's a series of all of us working together that we're able to make this the way that is, you could go out there and say, there's crime, there's this, there's that. We are nowhere near where we are in other places in this world when it comes to crime. We are nowhere near it.

Starting point is 01:28:32 We are able to live civilly because of the people that I just mentioned, you know? And the other thing is that when we talked about how you have really bad people, there are bad people that need to be incarcerated the rest of life. You imagine working eight, 16 hours a day with these guys or girls. You know what I mean? I give them credit.

Starting point is 01:28:54 It's a different breed, you know. And no cell phone. That's one of the only, like there's not a lot of jobs where you can't have a cell phone at all. Like the correctional officers. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, inside you mean? inside that they're locking them away. They can't, they're, they're doing the time with you, you know.

Starting point is 01:29:12 Right, yeah. And like the guy, the guy had on from Rikers, the smells. That was the first thing you told me about. That guy was great. I had a good tie with that watching him. But there's truth to it. You know what I mean? Like you, like you, you send 32 people to the yard for wreck, okay?

Starting point is 01:29:31 They come back. You got testosterone smell. You got sweat smell. You got the shower going. The steam, you got them going to the bathroom. You got them reheating their coffee, okay, with toilet paper. You know, they make the nest on the toilet seat of toilet paper. And when I was there, if you were a punk seal, you allow them to take the, when they were pouring coffee, you allowed them to take, it was a steel pot.

Starting point is 01:29:56 You fucking kidding me. They'd allow them to take the steel pot in there. And they would heat up their coffee and then hold it over the thing. So you had that smell. And then for some reason, the jail I worked at, I don't know if. It was a state thing. But you know the Slim Jims? Yeah, of course.

Starting point is 01:30:12 They used to light them and burn all the grease off and make it into like a more of a beef jerky type of thing. That smelled like freaking hair, cooking and mayonnaise and just nasty. It had this nasty smell to it. So you take all those smells together. It was terrible. It was just terrible. Holy yeah. I didn't even know about that.

Starting point is 01:30:36 Oh, yeah. I don't understand. why they did that. But one guy told me it was because it got all the grid of the grease and it made it like more of a beef jerky taste of it. But I go, you're stinking up the freaking in it. But, and then when I worked in a jail,

Starting point is 01:30:50 you could smoke in the jail. Yeah. And it was federally you could smoke or the designated area? No, it wasn't even legal. They would sell packs for like 20 bucks and then like contraband. Oh, contraband. Oh, contraband specs, yeah.

Starting point is 01:31:04 Yeah. So the sheriff at the time for the people that had no money, he would give this tobacco to them. He spent, they spent, when the new sheriff came in and realized that they spent over $20,000 on this free tobacco for people, he canceled it. But when I first started working there, the sheriff allowed it, and it was this stuff called Roll Rich, okay? And you ever seen the Tops Tobacco?

Starting point is 01:31:27 It's, I don't even be a New York thing, but it's, you roll it, you roll your own tobacco, right? And this Roll Rich was similar to Tops. but it was cheaper even looking than tops. And they'd have the rolling papers, and they'd roll these cigarettes, and they were just the worst smelling cigarettes. I mean, it doesn't make any,

Starting point is 01:31:52 I mean, like you smell a marlibrill cigarette. You still have that second-hand smoke, but it smells like a cigarette. This didn't even smell like a cigarette. So you also had that, where these people were smoking that. And then, you know, they were throwing cigarette butts in the ground. It was a totally different atmosphere than it is now.

Starting point is 01:32:07 You know what I mean? As far as there's, I think there's a level of cleanliness that there wasn't before. With the pods, I think there's a little bit more, I wouldn't say respect for the prisoner. I don't know if that's the right word, but it's a little bit more of a common type of living. You know what I mean? Because when you're in a linear jail, you come out of your cell, you're still on a catwalk that has bars around it. So the catwalk is probably from me to you away and do. distance and width. And there's four picnic tables that are stationed within, you know, the metal ones.

Starting point is 01:32:44 But I think that the guys that have stayed working at the jail and I left, the guy said it wasn't like it was at the end when you were there. He goes, it got a lot better. And he said it got a lot better with prisoner, inmate, deputy relationships because the prisoners more behaved themselves.

Starting point is 01:33:07 And I said, why? And he goes, because they didn't want to go to the linear part of the jail. They wanted to be in the pots.

Starting point is 01:33:12 So now you went from a jail member. I told you, we were so full that we had punitive SEG, you were, or strip cell or PC,

Starting point is 01:33:19 you were locked in a cell with everybody, everybody around you. This is where they have the ability to have a punitive seg unit now. So if you're an asshole, come on, you're going to put it in a sec.

Starting point is 01:33:30 And you're going to sell. Well, they have that over the inmate. So the inmates's like, I want air conditioning. I want TV when I can go to it. Because what happens is they pop the door at 8 o'clock in the morning. The only time they're going to close it is count in the afternoon to switch shifts. And then at night when you go to bed. Other than that, you can stay out in the freaking area the whole time.

Starting point is 01:33:49 The wreck yard is attached to the pod. You know what I mean? So he says it got a lot better. And that reduced tension. So, but still, I mean, I wouldn't want to do that job again. You've lived an interesting life, John. Yeah, it did. Well, thank you, man.

Starting point is 01:34:06 I appreciate you coming on the show today. I appreciate it. Thank you very much. It was a great conversation, very insightful. I'm glad we got to meet. Definitely stay in touch. And thanks for supporting the show. Yeah, thanks again.

Starting point is 01:34:16 I appreciate it.

Locked In with Ian Bick - Retired Police Captain Shares Raw & Unfiltered Stories from Corrections, Narcotics & Patrol | John Reilly

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