Locked In with Ian Bick - Sarah Wayne Callies: Prison Break, Fame & Playing Dr. Sara Tancredi

Episode Date: February 12, 2026

Sarah Wayne Callies sits down to talk about her childhood, her path into acting, and what led to her being cast as Dr. Sara Tancredi on Prison Break. She opens up about the sudden fame that came with the show, how she prepared for the role by visiting real prisons, and how filming Prison Break permanently changed her perspective on incarceration and the criminal justice system. Sarah also shares behind-the-scenes stories from set, the emotional weight of playing a character inside prison walls, and how that experience later influenced her work, including being cast on The Walking Dead. _____________________________________________ #SarahWayneCallies #PrisonBreak #SaraTancredi #TVInterviews #BehindTheScenes #HollywoodStories #ActingCareer #youtubepodcast _____________________________________________ Connect with Sarah Wayne Callies: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahwaynecallies/?hl=en Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCi6Syro1Uk5qZ-mf_q4v6lQ _____________________________________________ Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Shop Locked In Merch: http://www.ianbick.com/shop _____________________________________________ Timestamps: 00:00 Filming Prison Break Inside a Real Prison 01:00 Career Growth, Podcasting & Season 3 Absence 03:50 Fan Reactions and Returning to Prison Break 05:30 On-Screen Chemistry and Cast Behind-the-Scenes Stories 07:20 Growing Up in Hawaii and Cultural Identity 10:30 Storytelling, Inspiration, and Gender Perspectives 14:00 College Dreams and Discovering the Power of Story 17:00 Theater, Family Influence, and Why Stories Matter 21:30 Dartmouth College, Culture Shock, and Life Lessons 25:00 Marriage, Early Career, and Connecting With Fans 28:00 Watching TV in Prison and Prison Break Reactions 33:00 Expectations vs Reality of Prison Life 36:00 Rehabilitation, Humanity, and the Impact of Incarceration 40:00 Private Prisons, For-Profit Systems, and Policy Shifts 44:00 Prison Camps, Fire Programs, and Second Chances 47:00 Reentry, Halfway Houses, and Breaking the Cycle 52:00 Finding Work After Prison and Systemic Barriers 55:00 Public Perception, Compassion, and Moral Complexity 01:01:00 Visiting a Real Prison and Humanizing Incarceration 01:10:00 Casting Stories and Sara Tancredi’s Evolution 01:18:00 Fandom, Privacy, and Life in the Spotlight 01:23:00 Fame, Pressure, and Public Scrutiny 01:30:00 Acting Challenges and Favorite Prison Break Moments 01:36:00 Transitioning to The Walking Dead and Set Culture 01:44:00 COVID, Resetting Priorities, and Family Focus 01:48:00 Reflection, Accountability, and Making Amends 01:55:00 Giving Back, Extreme Empathy, and Advocacy 01:58:00 Hospice Work, Prison Reform, and Ongoing Mission 02:00:00 Final Reflections and Gratitude Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Prison Break made me think about that a lot because we shot in a real decommissioned prison, right? There was a death row. John Wayne Gacy was on that death row. How did you get cast in Prison Break? Dominic and I had asked to go to a real prison. I did read an article that was talking about how it was your idea to come up with Sarah being addicted to drugs. Is that true? In that moment, I realized I could very briefly look into the eyes of another human being and have no earthly idea what they were capable of.

Sarah Wayne Callies joins me to talk about her childhood, getting cast on prison break, navigating sudden fame, and preparing for one of television's most iconic roles, including how visiting real prisons altered her view of the criminal justice system and shaped the responsibility she feels today. She also opens up about how that experience changed the way she approaches her work, the perspective it gave her beyond Hollywood, and what she's focused on now,

including how her journey ultimately led her to the, The Walking Dead. Sarah, welcome to Lockton. Thanks so much for coming out here today. We appreciate you. I'm so grateful to you for having me. This is really fun. Thanks. Yeah. I want you to plug in the projects you're working on. And you have to have to have the coming out soon too. Are you allowed to talk about that? Yeah. I mean, we, the third season of our prison break rewatch podcast is coming out, which is kind of fun. It's going to be an interesting season because Paul Adelstein is my co-host. He played Kellerman on the show. neither one of us have seen season three, neither one of us were in it. And so the first two seasons,

you know, we rewatch and we have guests on who were a part of the show and we talk about it and we talk about our memories. We don't know what happens. We haven't read scripts. So we're kind of watching it with fans for the first time, which is a little nerve-wracking because I sometimes don't know how to censor myself and I can see myself being like, that's dumb. and be like, shoot, no. But we're starting to record it very soon, and I think when this comes out, it'll be coming out around the same time. So, yeah, that's kind of what we have in the pipeline.

That's so awesome. That was a season you were missing from prison break. Yeah. Okay, gotcha. Where everyone thought you were dead. Yes. Yes. I thought I was dead.

Oh, you had thought you were dead at the time. Well, I mean, the short version, we'll talk about this more on the pod, but the short version is I left season two and everyone was like, bye, see you next year. And I was pregnant. I was having a baby. And the way I remember it was, I was asked if I was going to take a maternity leave. And I said, yeah, I'd like to be with the baby for, I think it was like six or eight weeks, California labor law gave me. And the next day they called back and they said, we're not actually going to have you in season three after all. Never mind. You're done. And I was like, okay. No worries. And, you know, I was. whatever, seven months pregnant at the time or something. I had other things in my mind. But it was a sort of abrupt about face, and I never really got any clarity about it. But the fans kind of put two and two together and kicked up a bunch of a fuss. And so, you know, they brought me back to the show for season four, which was kind of fun. The fans were pissed. I was one of the people that went on Reddit

looking as soon as I got to that season. Oh, really? Checking, like, did she die? What happened? It's a drama, and this is years later, so they had written all the articles about what happened and whatnot. So I'm glad you came back for it. It was a nice to be able to sort of continue the thing that we'd started. And every season of that show was so different that, you know, to sort of come back in and see what was in store. I felt like they reinvented the show every year. So it was kind of nice to be like, all right, what do you have up your sleeves this year? It was neat. And I got to work with Rappaport,

who is just an absolute wild man of a comic genius. Do you know what I mean? And like, you could just kind of watch him all day. You know what I mean? You feel like, somebody give him a cup, a can of Coke or something. He would just, whosh. And you're like, this is amazing. I've got a front row seat. When I had met him two years ago and went on his pod, I had never watched prison break yet. So I didn't realize his role was that big on the show. And then watching it, I was like, oh, wow, I'm glad he didn't come on mine yet because I have so many questions for. So many questions.

And he was beautiful girls was one of my favorite all-time movies. And have you seen it? No. It's super old, but it's wonderful. And he's so good in it. I think it was the first thing I ever saw him in. And it's like, Umah Thurman, Martha Plimpton, Rosie O'Donnell. Like, it's a beautiful movie.

And he's just pure Rappaport in it. Do you know what I mean? Like, funny, irreverent, and utterly unlike anybody else. Yeah. Which is, I guess that's one of the things I really like about him is that he's just totally unlike anybody else and does not care. You know what I mean? Like his social media definitely shows that. Is that right?

He's running for mayor now, too. He's wanting for who? Running for mayor of New York City. He just announced it. He's running for mayor of New York City? Yeah, in 2009. Isn't Zorn Mandani? For the next election.

For the under any particular platform or party? I don't think he said that yet. Or just like the Rappaport party. Yeah, he said he's running. Oh, my God. Yeah. But that's what I loved about his comedy show, because when I went to his comedy show, it's neutral. Like, he plays both sides.

Right, right. Which I found entertaining, and I really enjoyed it. It was so funny. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's not, it makes sense to me to play both sides in this day and age, by which I mean, both sides are such ridiculous caricatures at this point that it's like, I would love. love it if his platform was everyone's nuts, and so am I. So let's lean into my nuts because I'm good nuts. Do you know what I mean? Be like, dude, Rapaport for Public Office. I did not see that coming. That's amazing. I don't think he saw it coming. I don't know, man. I mean, like

Jesse the Body Ventura was the, wasn't he the governor of like Wisconsin or something? That sounds Jesse Ventura. He's an actor? No, he was like a pro wrestler or something. So, you know, We've got Schwarzenegger. We've got... True. Go for it, Mike. I can't wait. I can't wait to see the debates.

I can't wait to see the campaign posters. I am totally here for this candidacy. I have no idea what you believe about anything, so I don't know if I would vote for you, but it's okay because I'm not a New York resident, so I don't have to worry about it. Where did you grow up, Sarah? I grew up in Hawaii. Hawaii? Yeah. Wow.

Yeah. What was that like? It was amazing. It was amazing. A couple of reasons. One is because the best things in Hawaii truly are free. You know, like the beach is free. The mountains are free.

And I also grew up at a time when Hawaiian language, culture, music, storytelling, like there was a real resurgence when I was growing up and a real love of Hawaiian language and flu. and dance and music and storytelling and it was such an everyday part of my life that I you know you take it for granted because it's just how life is and then I got to the mainland for college and I was like oh this is not how everybody grows up everybody doesn't grow up knowing whose land you're on and how to show respect when you go into the mountains or what you can eat and I just felt so much richer for it. And this may sound odd, but I also, like a lot of the

stories were about the, you know, the Hawaiian legends and the pantheons and the, the volcano goddess and the, you know, the goddess of the snow, because there is snow on the big island, on the one mountain that we get snow on. And there were all of these really powerful female figures. And without knowing it, I think they became a part of my DNA. Like my understanding of the world was there are powerful female creative forces. There are powerful male creative forces and destructive forces and everything else. And that really shaped my thinking. And then I got to the mainland and I was really surprised by how much of that powerful

female side was kind of missing. And a lot of the stories that a lot of people had been raised with were absent those female figures. And I could see that reflected in the culture in ways that was like, I don't know, this doesn't feel great. And so Hawaii really gave me, I think we know what's possible by the stories that were told. and I think our stories help shape our reality because if you can see it, then you can be it. And our imagination creates, I mean, look at this amazing thing that you've created out of your imagination. You know, and I see somebody like Steve Jobs on your wall, and I think, well, you've got inspiration from people who've, you know, come before and done extraordinary things and built things and built empires and this amazing thing that you're doing. that imagination of balanced power between men and women and capability was put into me so young.

And it's one of the things I'm most grateful to Hoy for. I mean, you know, the beaches and the mountains and the trees and all of that stuff is incredible. But what underpinned it was a set of stories that were just enormous. gifts to me for my whole life, even though I haven't lived at home for, you know, 30 years. Do your parents still live there? Yeah. Yeah. My parents were professors at the university.

So they're still there. Which is a nice, you know, excuse to visit and, like, reconnect. And I've never worked there, which is crazy. Like, for all of the Hawaii 5Os and the lost and the, like, Magnum PI. You know, I'm mostly directing now, and I'm like, hi, hi, could I, I can sleep on my mom's couch. I would really like to get some work done there, but, you know, we'll get there eventually. What did young Sarah want to do with her life? That's a really interesting question.

I definitely wanted to be an astronaut for a minute. My best friend growing up, who lives, like, not far from here in Connecticut now, She had a, she lived in this amazing multi-generational household with her grandparents and her parents and her sister and her aunt and their two kids and her other aunt who was developmentally disabled and one of the funnest people that we knew growing up. And Z. Becky was a ball because she was down with whatever we were down with from age eight to 18. She was like, I'm in. But she had a little nephew named AJ.

I was just enough older that he thought I was super cool. And one year, his mom was like, what do you want to be when you grew up? And he goes, Sarah. And I was like, oh my God, that's amazing. Such a great party trick. We had a bunch of people over. We had a little party at Nina's house. And I was like, guys, listen to this.

AJ, what do you want to be when you grew up? And he goes, a garbage man. And I was like, okay. And that kind of put me right in my place. So there was a minute there where I thought, maybe I should be a garbage man because that's where AJ has landed. me. I think eventually I, by the time I got to university, I assumed I would be a professor like my folks. I really wanted to study indigenous theology, like native religion, because at that

point, I was really curious about the way in which the stories that I was told in Hawaii shaped who I was. And I was like, what if I could go study this? You know, what are the Caiowa stories? What are the Hauden Shone stories? What are the, like, native Tahitian story? Like, what are the stories that shape the people in the land in North America and the Pacific? But I a bunch of things happened but I think that the short version is that

I realized that I could do all this research and it would be really hard and I could publish it and maybe 100 people would read it. Or since I'd always been doing plays if you're performing to a Broadway house or even like a regional house, whatever you have to say, you're saying 600 people a night. And you're not lecturing them, you're telling them a story. And I think your sign there says how you can change the world.

I actually think if you want to change the world, you change the stories that people tell. And nobody likes homework and nobody likes to be lectured to. And so I thought, well, if I want to have an impact, in the world. I think I want to do it as a storyteller rather than an academic. So I assumed I'd just do regional theater and bartend for the rest of my life. That was my plan. That was my big plan. Plants change. Would your parents think of that? You know, they were great about it, actually. They were very sanguine. They were people who believed as long as do what makes you happy, just know that you're economically independent.

You know, like, we can't, they're professors. They're like, we can't bankroll you. But I got a master's in acting because it was a terminal degree. And so it was like, well, worst comes to worst. Not worse comes to worst. I can teach with that, whether it's high school or even at a college level. And so it's like, they were like, that's a plan that makes sense to us. You know what I mean?

That's tenure and in health insurance and financials. independence and you not knocking on our door going, hey, can you pay my rent? But my mom was a Shakespeare scholar, among other things. And so I think the power of theater and storytelling was something that was apparent to her. And she really supported. And, you know, I mean, I look at what you're doing here and I think you're doing something similar, right? Please correct me if I'm wrong. But it seems like one of the things you're doing is shifting the stories that we tell about people who are incarcerated. Yeah, it's storytelling.

Right. Because I could tell your story in radically different ways, you know, and like, if I want to be an asshole about it, I can be like, here's a manipulative young man and lock him up and throw away the key. And I can put a whole bunch of legislation together around protecting people from people like you. Or I can tell your story about, like, here. Here's somebody who made choices in life, ended up with consequences to those choices that may or may not have even been fully fair. And then came out and was like, let me leverage my drive ambition and experience to give people a voice who are never going to have one otherwise and to humanize a population that is arguably shot on more than anybody. in the world, right? Like, I can take the story of your life

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Sure. And those went on for years. Right. Then I had the opportunity to have an HBO documentary made a part about my life. And the director took the time to understand me and he could have went in either direction. Yep. And by the end of it, when I got to watch the finished piece, you got to see what he thought of the whole situation through the way he told the story. Yeah.

Which was drastically different from how others had told the story in the past. So it comes down to. the person that's putting it together and what their opinion is. And that kind of help shape my ability as an interviewer too and just learning and putting it together. Well, and it's also like, I think the whole concept of rehabilitation has been heartbreakingly abandoned. And where I see a huge amount of inspiration in your story is that filmmaker had, I don't know what you'd call it towards you. Grace, compassion, empathy, curiosity. whatever it is, but saw your story as a story of a human being.

And then with that, like, faith that they put in you, you've done all of this for so many other people. And I think for a lot of people telling their story is a kind of medicine. Do you what I mean? Because when you don't feel heard, when you feel misunderstood or judged, that sits in you. And it, like, it doesn't do good things. So you're giving people an opportunity to tell their story. And then you're giving people an opportunity to listen to those stories and go, oh, God, it was so easy to judge this person from the outside when all I knew was a charge and a sentence and a rap sheet. But now I'm looking at a human being.

And it feels like the world and particularly this country is in a pretty sticky place right now. And I think that kind of listening and going, I'm going to choose to see a human being. I mean, I think that's our only way out. So, yeah, I love what you're doing. is what I'm saying. What lessons, if any, were there in college for theater or carried over to your career in the future? You know, in some ways the biggest one was that we are all deeply dependent on one another. You know, like when I was working on the academic stuff, it was like me alone in my office, tap, tap, tap, tap, tapping.

and it felt very like in my own head. I felt like it was a balloon on a string, just like a little brain floating. But theater was so hugely interconnected. Like you've got the other actors, and I really believe that you can't give a good performance by yourself. Like, if we're in a scene together, my job is to give you everything you need to...

so that you only have to show up and listen and say your words. And I have to be so present and so honest that I give you something real. I can't give myself a performance. You give me a performance because you do your work so fully and completely and wholly that all I have to do is show up and listen. That kind of exchange is beautiful, but that's only just the actors. Then you've got all the technicians and the people who like, none of this matters if it's in the dark and it's quiet.

you know what I mean like so you've got all of the people who show up every day and go all right there's 600 people in the audience who have never seen this before so we're all going to do our jobs to the best of our ability to share this story with them that's like that's like sacred to me you know what I mean that's a kind of church and it's the same way on a television or a film set you know you're deeply interdependent on people and on a lot of people who like may not look like you or pray like you or think like you or vote like you, you know? Like we shot Wogging Dead in Georgia. There were a lot of people on our crew who I would not have met otherwise, who I adore and got really close with. And again, I think about like the country's in a sticky place right now. Like we were all cool with each other, you know? And I know. And I know. that we probably believe different things and voted different ways and whatever, but it's also like we can sit and be friends. And again, there's something kind of sacred about that to me.

I'm very serious at what I do. I take myself very seriously. God. Sometimes I listen to myself and I'm like, shut up. God. Anyway, sorry. Where'd you go to college? Don't judge. One second. It can't be that bad. I went to Dartmouth. Oh, what's wrong with that? Have you been to Dartmouth? Well, isn't it? It's a, it's Ivy League. Oh, yeah, just ask them. It, yes. Beautiful place. Beautiful place. The mountains are incredible. I met my husband there, who's one of my all-time favorite people, some super close friends. that frat system was not safe for women. And I did not know what I was getting into. I didn't, like I said, I was coming from Hawaii where like women are respected and female power is baked into. And I don't mean power like, I just mean like women as, as, yeah, as beautiful, powerful, sacred members of a society was baked into the culture. And I was floored by the way women were treated at that college.

It was staggering. And I think I kind of stuck it out out of a sense of defiance. I was like, you're not chasing me out. But if I was looking back, like, I probably should transfer. I probably should have been like, let's find a place that's not steeped in institutional misogyny as like a part of. like the literature. It's like I feel like they were proud of it. It was a rough place. But it also created some really interesting artists. Mindy Kaling was a year younger than I was. Connie Britton went there.

Shonda Rhymes. Do you know what I mean? Like in that crucible, also Dave Harbor, although was not then and is not now a woman. But Erica Rivanoia, who is an extraordinary television writer, Like in that crucible, I think some really extraordinary artists were formed. But it did feel a little bit like a bare knuckle round every week. Did going to an Ivy League school you think helped your career or wouldn't have made a difference? I don't think for what I do, anybody cares. Do you mean? Like, nobody cares if you're a smart actor or not.

I don't know. Maybe on the directing side. Yeah, I don't know. I don't think so. But I also am one of those people who kind of believes that, like, if you're good with your present, you've got to be good with your past. You know, like every step I've taken on any path has taken me here, and I'm really grateful for that. Like I said, you know, I met my husband. And not like I was going to college to meet my future husband, but, you know, since it happens.

and call it it a win. Did you guys get married right away, right after college? No, no, no. I told him I needed a master's degree before I would get married. I never really thought I would get married. But, no, we got married. We met in 97. We got married in 2002.

And we were long distance at a time when neither of us had any money and the internet wasn't really a thing. We didn't have cell phones. And so we wrote letters. We have like boxes of. letters that we would write each other like probably five, six nights a week that would go, because he graduated right after we met

and went down to teach in D.C. And so like, you know, we couldn't afford to see each other very often. So. Like prison pen pals. I mean, I don't know what the prison part? Like, we were both free. I will tell you though, I've gotten a lot of mail from prison

over the years. Because of the show. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. They aired it in prison. Wow. Which is wild to me. I didn't see it in prison. You didn't see it in prison? In prison? No. They watch a lot of like love and hip hop. They watch cops. They watch it's crazy. You know what else? Love After Lockup is huge in prison. That's bonkers. Can you watch whatever you want or is it like only restricted? So for movies, it's they actually have movies that are in theaters that come out for on the weekends like Friday, Saturday, Sunday, like when it goes to on demand. And then TV is normal TV. So you can watch the Shawshank Redemption, you can whatever, like... Whatever's on that station, yeah.

We would get SD cards smuggled in, and we would watch the download, like an SD card and download stuff from like foreign sites on contraband cell phones. Oh my God. And watch it. That's how we started watching power, which what I was telling you about. Yeah, we would watch that from prison because they didn't have stars in prison. So we would watch that. I watched Orange is a New Black because I was watching season one and two.

and then I went to prison. So I watched seasons like three and four in prison on my bunk. Okay, wait. So is there like, do people have opinions about prison shows? I mean, like, if people saw you watching Orange is the New Black, what would they say? The people inside don't have opinions. I think it's a people outside. Like, I've interviewed so many people and the comments would be like, why are you in prison watching a prison show? So I think the inmates don't really pay attention to the... It's just entertainment. Yeah. What would it be irony, right? If you're watching a show in is that irony? I don't know. I mean, it like

my like my dumb thinking would be like would you be annoyed that it doesn't feel realistic I mean like I wonder if they showed Oz in prison. That was the first prison show that I watched that I was like Have you seen it? No so I

funny enough everyone always rips me for it and then I go to watch it two weeks ago Yeah. It's so old It is very old. I can't do it. Chris Maloney is like 15. It is so old. That's funny.

I haven't seen it since it was originally on. So I can't speak to how relevant it would be, but it was groundbreaking television at the time. So you watched it before ever being cast in Prison Break? Yeah. What did you take Oz at the time or prison in general? I thought Oz was extraordinary. I had no idea if it was, I still have no idea if it's, accurate or anything, but the characters were so beautifully drawn and so, I mean, the performances

were just amazing. There's some heavy hitters actor-wise in that show, right? Yeah. Yeah, there really are. I'd have to go back and kind of look at who they were, but I think P.T. P.K. Simmons, I think. J.K. Simmons. That one.

Yeah, sorry. P.T. Barnum. I don't know what I'm doing you. P.T. Barnum. Yeah. He was in it. He was great. There was an actor who played out of BC. I don't remember who he is, but he was phenomenal. I imagine there's some queer representation that would be written differently these days if I think it through. But I, you know, you ask what I thought of prison, it just seemed like a place where I would never survive.

You know what I mean? Like, it always felt very violent. And I don't. I don't. don't think I'd do well. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not a fighter. I'm not ferocious. You know what I mean? Like, I just can't, I can't imagine. Like, when you, when you were contemplated, when you knew you were going to go, but you hadn't been yet, like, what was in your head? Were you like, I've got this, I can handle this? Were you like, I'm going to shit myself? Like, is that, and sorry, it's also none of my business. You don't have to add. You thought this was your run club era. Turns out, it was more of a thinking about Run Club era.

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Talk about it for a living. Fair enough. I was actually in denial and my bond got revoked. I never thought I was going to go to prison. And it got revoked because I was going out of state against my conditions. Okay. Supervised release. And it didn't really hit me until I think that night when the cell door shuts and you're in there.

Where you go first is like a detention center, which is what like 60 days in is based on, one of those real prison-type vibes. Okay. Actual prison is so much different than what you see on TV. Okay. detention setter think like prison break with like the bars or like being in a cell. Yeah. That was my first night in prison. And you're sitting there and you're like, is this how I'm going to spend however long you're sentenced to? Right. And then you find out it's not like that long term. Okay. But while you're on, you're fighting your case, you're on pretrial or you're pending sentencing.

That's what it's like. Okay. Have you ever watched 60 days in? No. I saw the night of. And I think that was a prison show that I mean, it wasn't a prison show, but he's in what Attica, I think, for a long time. That made a big impression on me. I think the thing that I perceive about prison is that you're a different person when you come out than when you go in. 100%.

Yeah? Yeah. You're entirely different. For better or for worse, I think it changes you. Yeah. And you also have a lot of time to reflect. I think prison didn't help rehabilitate me

I think it gave me the tools I needed, which weren't discoverable at the time when I get out, because you're one person one day locked in and then the same person the next day when you walk out. But it kind of triggers it years later when you realize, oh, prison shaped me to become that person. And what, like, shaped you how? I think for me it was, you know, talking about everything that happened that led me to prison. Okay. Like doing, say, like the HBO doc, I got to sit and be questioned for, you know, 15 hours. and really share my thoughts and feelings and really reflect.

And you look at all the, for me specifically, how prison shaped me was all those moments, the negative moments that happened in prison and the positive was what I was able to build a platform into. And I'll interview people that, you know, turn their prison hustle into a career, you know, after or turn friendships that they met that led to something else or, you know, or just using that time to really remove themselves from, say, gang life or from negative situations. or I think that's what happens with individuals. Was there like, was there a rehabilitative aspect to it for you?

No. Not at the time. They were just like due time. Yeah. I mean, now it's getting better with the laws that are being changed. Like they're implementing more programs. Okay. But when I went into prison, I thought, you know, I was excited to see my case manager.

I was excited to see my counselor thinking there was going to be a plan. Right. And there wasn't. No plan. There was nothing. You're on your own. You have to fend for. for yourself and there's no college classes.

Like my family members are like, oh, sign up for college classes because I never went to college. Yeah, we all saw the Shawshank Redemption, right? It's like, go work in the prison library and give yourself an education. There's a pamphilip in the library that talks about college classes, but it's not realistic. Yeah. Well, I just, we were talking about this outside. I just saw the Alabama solution, which, like, I want to say I recommend, but also it

feels like being punched in the throat. Like, it's brutal. and it, you know, it feels like these guys are just thrown in. The key is, they're locked up to throw the way the key. And there's just this level of like hopelessness and despair. And they don't, I know this sounds so dumb. They don't seem safe. You know what I mean?

Like they don't seem safe from drugs. It feels like there's a fair amount of corruption with the guards there. And I say that being, I also, like, want to be careful and respectful because my husband's family, some of the folks are in corrections and some of them are guards. And you know what I mean? Like, I also know that they're good people. But like, I just saw that knowing I was coming here. I was like, oh, let me see this movie before I come talk to you. And it just gave me a sense of how complicated it must be to try and advocate for felons. Because. I don't think anyone's ever won an election on we need to be more humane to felons. People win elections on lock them up and throw away the key and fuck these guys, you know? And yet, I don't think we should judge ourselves as a civilized society by how we treat our billionaires. I think we should treat it. I think we should judge ourselves by how we treat our felons and our homeless.

It's like if we as a culture can't somehow, I think. I don't know. I mean, I genuinely don't know. Like, there's no answer in my head, but I, I watched this film, and I was like, this can't be it. This can't be the best we can do. You know, just like, leaving guys in crazy heat with rats running around their feet all night while they sleep and, you know, people overdosing and being beaten by guards. It's just like, that can't be the best we can do. partly because some of these guys are they're going to come back. You know what do you do when a guy's been living like that for 15 years? And then we're like, now go get a job, two thumbs up.

By the way, no one's going to hire you and you can't vote. And I get that a lot of these guys have done terrible things. But like, I don't know. But even the ones that haven't necessarily harmed someone have the same issue too. Yeah. I don't know. Prison break made me think about that a lot. because we shot in a real decommissioned prison, right?

There was a death row. John Wayne Gacy was on that death row. Wait, he was at that. That was a death row unit? Yeah. Wow. The scenes of Dom in the death row were shot in the actual death row. And it made it, I mean, it was wild.

Like, maybe it's dumb to talk about a TV show in this context. But, like, a lot of our ex-examination. had done time in that institution before it was decommissioned. Wow. And that was a little weird sometimes because I'd look around and I'd be like, ain't no women anywhere. And there'd be like 200 male extras. And they're talking about how like, oh yeah, I remember I was locked up there.

And I was like, we're all good, right? Like, just to be clear. They were. They were all lovely. There were never any problems with any of them. I was just a little squeamish looking around being like, okay. But it got me thinking about it. And what was interesting to me is that like it's a show about a man who's charged with who's convicted of a crime he didn't commit and sentenced to die.

And yet we kind of never talked about the death penalty as like a thing. And I think in some ways it's a great example of like, storytelling that can kind of just like put something out there and be like do with this as you will but it you know in in preparing for the show I read this book which had a big impact on me and I went to see a real prison we spent a day there at statesville in Illinois and I'd never spent really any time thinking about prison I mean like I watched Oz and been like oh cool TV you know like turn this off and go back to bed in my little apartment in Brooklyn and go about my life. But it's this huge industry.

Like it's a business. Did you feel that for-profit aspect of it? Like it still feels weird to me that we have for-profit prisons. When I was in the detention center, that's crazy because everything's the bottom line. And it's a whole different experience being in a for-profit prison. And a lot of the immigration prisons are for-profit too. What's different? So commissary is a lot, either higher priced or slimmer items.

Food is, you can definitely tell the difference between the food on the trays versus in the federal system. Wait, what's the difference? I'd say they're a lot skimpier, you know. They were definitely a lot smaller trays and just everything from soap and like issued toothpaste. And it's just, everything's a numbers game. It's like working in corporate. Right. You know, I worked in a grocery store for a few years after prison, and you compare that where everything is numbers, weighing everything, numbered this, everything. And then you work in a mom and pop restaurant. It's night and day. So I would, that's a comparison.

Interesting. So you look at like a state-ran prison as your mom and pop restaurant. Right. And your private prison is your corporate facility. And do you feel like if you were to walk into a place and spend a couple days there, you, without knowing you could tell? 100% yeah the inmates can tell everything could tell there would be guys there that would make jokes just wait until you get to like a real prison it's completely different wow yeah private prisons have a terrible rep yeah i forgot what year it was but there was a year where they was really blown into the news um it was like 2011 or 2012 before i ever got into trouble i remember it was just like constantly in the news yeah a lot about revoking contracts and shutting them down because i think there was politicians that were owners or partners and partners and And there was a whole thing that got exposed. Like getting kickbacks. Yeah. It feels crazy. I mean, like, I'm not trying to sound like Che Guevara, but it does feel crazy to me to have a for-profit prison.

Like, how could you possibly create something humane? I mean, I don't know. Again, I've never been. Yeah. I'm not involved in the prisons. I just play one on TV. Like, it's, but it seems nuts to me. I was interviewing a guy the other day who said he wanted to donate meals to this prison that he was in.

And they told him that he had to go through the company that they had a food vendorship license with. And that company charged like 10 times the amount as what it would have cost to actually go to a place and bring the food. Right. Yeah. I mean, so you were, so the detention center was private. Yep. And then the prison was federal. Yep.

It was federally ran, yeah. Federally ran. But the private one, the feds had a contract with for immigration and for state guys and for federal inmates. Gotcha. And it feels like things are going more in the direction of private prisons, right? Well, I think there's less private. A lot of the private ones are gone. Oh, is that right? Yeah. I know there's a lot of private immigration ones, but at least out here, there's a lot of there's a lot of prisons, too. Really? Yeah. New York State has, I've interviewed quite a few correctional officers. They've gotten rid of a lot of the prisons there. That's encouraging. Why? I think it's.

encouraging. Why? I don't know, maybe less staff they have. I know there's like a huge hiring issue. Or the inmate population has decreased. I don't know. I mean, you probably see the news that they talk about closing Rikers all the time. No, I haven't. I mean, I live in Canada. I haven't. Yeah, they always talk about closing Rikers. I don't know if that'll actually happen. But that's so interesting because again, like I just, I saw one documentary. It doesn't mean I know anything. And you went down the rabbit hole. Well, it's all about it's overcraft. You know what I mean? It's all about like they built this prison for, you know, whatever, 3,000 people and there's 20,000 people there. And so the idea of them closing prisons feels like,

I mean, I love the idea in theory of like, let's incarcerate fewer people. But then also, yeah. They're closing a lot of camps. Camps, I think, are unnecessary. Camps? Yeah, camps are like the Martha Stewart type prisons. Oh, club fed? Yeah, club fed. I was there for the last year. They actually closed the camp that I was in, in Wisconsin. And they're getting rid of those. I mean, at that point you might as well just be home. Guys were running through the woods to to meet their wives or bring back food or whatever. It's very silly. It's not like what you see on TV at all. Right. The prison camps. Well, although, I mean, speaking of prison camps, I direct on fire country. And it's really, yeah. Have you seen that show? Yeah. They watched that in prison. Oh, very cool. Yeah. So I've directed an,

I've directed an episode of every season for all four seasons of our run so far. And it's really interesting to me because that's based on like that's a show that's all about rehabilitation and these fire camps are fascinating because you know they're inmate firefighters and they're allowed to work off time

or to serve time working for like they think the California wildfire service and it's mostly like clearing brush and you know helping we push the boundaries of what they actually do on TV because it's a show but but there's something about it that I think audience is really connected to in ways that I find

encouraging because the lead of the show is like he's a felon and the show is about his journey through addiction and crime into becoming a firefighter and that's like it's there's not many professions that people respect as universally as like firefighters like you know those are the good guys. Like I don't, you know, they put the fires out, they save people, two thumbs up. So it's funny, I've never thought about that until this moment as like a prison show, but it kind of is. Yeah, I've interviewed a couple guys that have fought in California fires from prison. Oh, no way. Wow. Back in the day and then also like from years ago and then also fairly recent in the last like 10, it's a hot topic right now because of the wildfires in California. Get it, hot topic?

True. But I discovered that. that show last year when I was on the plane, it popped up on like the Delta thing. So I started watching it. It was really good. I enjoyed it. It's a fun show. It's a fun show. And again, like I think there's something, you know, if storytelling is medicine, it's a little bit of like, look what happens when, you know, you can give people an opportunity to move past the dumb shit. Because we've, again, like, I know how this sounds. There are people who've committed horrible crimes who need to be kept away from society. I know that. I get that. And there's certainly crimes I can think of where I'm like, I don't have compassion for that one.

You know what I mean? But I do think about the fact that nobody gets through life without really seriously fucking up a couple times. And it does feel a little bit like there before the grace of God. You know, not that everybody ends up committing crimes, but I think I'm interested in the idea of us as a culture being able to hold an arm. minds two things at once that sometimes people do bad stuff and need to be held accountable and that those can still be good people and can still belong in society and not be cast out. Like there's somebody that I know from back home who's a really good guy. And he, you know, he was dating this woman who had a young kid and she bailed and left him with a

kid. And he was like, okay, I guess I'm raising this kid now. And like, raise the kid. You know, got legal custody. It was a great dad. And then got into some trouble driving a car that had stuff he wasn't supposed to be in and who knows if it was his or not. But he got locked up for a couple of years and came out. And how does he support this kid now? He's a felon. You know, like, not a lot of jobs and a whole lot of judgment. And I learned a lot from him being in my life. You know, somebody who I have so much respect for as a man, who also, like, I don't know if he broke the law

or if he was driving the wrong car at the wrong time or whatever, but I think so often our stories in the news and in our political dialogue about criminals strip everything else away. And I think that hurts us as a society as much as it hurts the human beings who are also criminals as well. But I don't know how you change that. You know, like, have your conversations with people giving you any insight into like, I think, to shift that. I think the conversations itself are what kind of changed that.

You have dialogue and people that can make changes see that dialogue. And there's so many people that have never been to prison that are fascinated by prison stories. And, you know, it's the same reason why Orange is the New Black, you know, took off or why Prison Break is popular now on streaming sites or anything like that. Yeah. I think those conversations strike dialogue. You think someone watches prison break, which is technically a fantasy or non-fictional, and then they want to deep dive into what does prison actually like? And they go and stumble upon a show like mine where they have someone that actually live like that. And that sparks a dialogue of, okay, does something need to be changed and how can we fix it?

Do you have a like punch list of the top three things? Like if somebody gave you a magic wand and was like, Ian, you've got three wishes. like what would those be if that's not too stupid a question? Well, so I don't focus on reform. I focus on reentry because reform, I think, you're trusting politicians to try to move the needle. And I don't know. They're always great at that. They're amazing.

So I think when you focus on reentry, it's because half of the prison population is a lot of reoffenders. So how do you set these guys up? Oh, interesting. And make sure they don't go back to prison. Break that recidivism cycle. Exactly. So when they look and say a story like mine, how do you turn what you did into something successful or just staying on the straight and arrow? And I think that's where the reentry part comes in. So I would say let's clean up the reentry aspect. Let's help with breaking down those barriers. And that's how you fix. That's a major fix in the system. And what does that look like like breaking down those barriers? I think better maybe reentry centers. That's another for profit system, the halfway houses. Ah. Yeah, that's like, imagine rehabs for criminals that aren't addicts. It's halfway houses. Right. And somebody's whole thing is how do I make money on this? Yeah, that's all for profit.

Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, that was worse than prison. The halfway house, yeah. Wait, say more. So when I got out, the halfway house, you can go from anywhere from zero to 12 months and a halfway house. It's miserable. The case managers and counselors are young adults that just got out of college that are interning, I guess you could say, or using it as a stepping stone to get into corrections or a government job or private practice. I went through like three case managers in a six-month period or a five-month period because they were just moving on to the next thing. Okay. So they're not like real devoted to the job itself. They don't care about the individuals there. And they were younger than me

and I was young to begin with. Not that age matters, but just they didn't have the experience. Experience matters. So imagine you have a guy that's coming out after 20 years at prison. Oh, my God. With those individuals, you know, there would be guys that would walk outside and just say, hey, take me back. And the marshals would come and pick them up. It's really sad to see. Really?

There's restrictions on visits. Another thing that was flawed was the state guys could have an iPhone or a touch phone. The federal guys there could only have a flip phone. And this was 2019. In the same building. Food was terrible, very small portion. They had like an outside caterer that would bring food wherever they ordered from. It's all for profit.

Right. It's low margins, dirty, extremely dirty. And I don't want to be like too flippant, but if you don't feed me enough, I'm not a nice person. I mean, like, truly, like, and that's just like Sarah being Sarah out in the wild. Like, if you're, like, I'm imagining somebody who, yeah, 20 years in is trying to figure out the way. the world, which is technically, technologically a different place, trying to figure out what they're capable of, trying to find something, your whole social system is different, everything is different, and now you've got to be hangary for the next six months. I mean, I would probably

be a felon if I were hangary for six months. Like, I just, like, I'm not trying to be too flippant, but... Yeah, and there's more restrictions on you, too, between, you. you know, logging everything, looking for work, curfews, all, it's a lot more restrictive. Right. So you go from a place that you have more freedom in prison than to this halfway house. You have more freedom in prison than every house. Yeah. And where it's super restrictive, like you're a toddler. Right. And, you know, it's just, it's not a good place to be. It's, halfway houses are, you know,

terrible. And they're shielded by nonprofits that run them where you have the executives or people on salary. I mean, a lot of nonprofits work that way where they're all getting, you know, salaries. Six-figure salaries. Exactly. And look, in the halfway house I was at, you had a director, you had an assistant director, and then you had an assistant to the assistant director. Do you need all three of those positions plus case managers and counselors and staff to manage, what, 100 guys?

It doesn't make sense. Is there any, like job training? No. We had computers, like three computers, to look for jobs that everyone just wanted. on Facebook on. And what jobs are available? I mean, like, as a, like, if you've got a record. I applied to 100 places, like, right before I went to prison.

Yeah. Because I was trying to make it look good for the judge that I was paying restitution. No one would hire me. I couldn't even get a job as a dishwasher at Red Robin or a Red Lobster. Really? For nine bucks an hour, minimum wage at the time. And then I got a job at Whole Foods. That was, like, the hundredth in one place.

They hired me. I kind of loved that they hired you. Yeah, they hired me and I worked my way up when I got out because I lost that job when my bond got revoked. And I worked my way up to a prepared foods manager. And I made $32 an hour. And with overtime, yeah. That's amazing. I was doing well.

I was going to make six figures with overtime that last year before I quit to start this. No way. And the funny part is I almost didn't get the job because the halfway house said Whole Foods doesn't hire felons. They weren't on their list because at these places they have it posted. You might see it like when you go to the local supermarket. at places that are felon friendly. Whole Foods wasn't on the list. So they were like, there's no way they're hiring you.

Yeah. So whenever I go and speak in at prisons, I say Whole Foods will hire you. Just as long as you don't have like a larceny or like a sex offense or, you know, something violent. But in my case, I got hired, no problem. Yeah, you know, I remember being told, actually it was Wentworth who told me this years ago because he went from nobody had heard of him to super. famous, like that in the course of like just a few months on the show. And paparazzi were

relentless. And it was one of the jobs that former felons often fell into because it's basically freelance. Like if you can take the photos and sell the photos, then you have a job. But it was because it was so limited the places that you could get work. He had a couple of really scary run-ins with paparazzi and he found out he was like a lot of these guys are former felons and so maybe their sense of like socially how to behave is not peak um and i remember us both thinking that was kind of scary i'm on the one hand great that people are finding work but on the other hand like you know you've got somebody with a camera in your face and you're like could you please move and you're not going anywhere. It's like, well, could we work on this together? Like, I don't know. It's

funny, as I'm talking to you about this, I find that I'm really having a hard time saying things that don't seem ridiculous to myself. Like, there's, there's so much complexity and nuance. And, like, for instance, I'm aware of bumping into things in my own mind that, like, short-circuit my thinking. For instance, like a very close friend of mine lost her 12-year-old son to a reckless driver a few months ago. And this is Canada, so a different legal system. But he was known to police. They knew he was probably going to kill somebody eventually. But they, you know, he hadn't committed a crime.

They couldn't put him away, whatever. And watching her grief, watching what's happened to that family. On the one hand, philosophically, I believe in compassion and empathy and rehabilitation. And on the other hand, specifically, when I think about that guy and that family, a whole bunch of really ugly emotions come up in me. Do you know what I mean? A whole bunch of like, I don't feel compassion for him. I will someday. Do you know what I mean?

When I'm not like this close to it. But I loved this kid. This kid was a really close friend of my youngest kid. And like, I'm aware that as we talk about this, I have all of these super conflicting emotions about, like, people deserve a chance to rehabilitate. They deserve to live in humane conditions in prison. They deserve a second chance when they get out. You know what I mean? Like, I believe all of those things philosophically.

And then I bump up against this very personal, very raw, immediate thing in my head. and it's really hard to not be like, fuck that guy, I don't care what happens to him. And if I think about that in my little life, and then I map that onto the larger challenges that we have as a society of dealing with politicians, of dealing with for-profit prisons, of dealing with, you know, like the stories I've heard from my husband's family who are guards, horrible things have been done to them. and they are, some of them, so exhausted and so fully PTSD'd out from everything that they've been through. I feel like all these things are colliding in my head, and I feel like I'm in a maze and I don't know which way to go. You know what I mean? Like, I can't even really figure out how to talk about it coherently. And I don't know why I would be talking about it anyway.

I'm just a fucking actor on a fucking show about a prison. But we're here, and we're talking about this because it's such a big part of what you're trying to do. And it's interesting. I'm sitting here feeling like, intellectually and emotionally paralyzed by all of the various perspectives. LinkedIn is pretty amazing at helping you grow your small business. We cannot make your email response time faster. We can help you sell, market, and hire in one place. We cannot help you find space for your three desk drinks. Why do you have three? And while we can't help you find the perfect volume for your presentation video.

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or targeting correction for a more natural vibe. At only $12, it's great for affordable touchups on the go. Get this new must-have concealer at Sephora or at Sephora.com today. ...that feel like you have a or it has a weight on you because you were cast on a show that relates to prison? Do you think you feel it more than say someone that wasn't in that position? I think that the ways in which that might be true have maybe less. us to do with the show itself than like the day I spent at Stateville really has stuck with me my whole life. So like Dominic and I had asked to go to a real prison because we were going to be

a show about it and that felt like, you know, the obvious thing to do. And spending a day walking around, it stopped being like Oz. And I was like, these are humans. And I was like, these are humans. And there was an older man who'd been there for decades. And he was chatting with the guard the way you'd talk to the bartender at the bar you've been going to for the last 30 years. Do you know what I mean? There was such affection between them. There was such brotherhood between them. One guy's locked up.

one guy's a guard. But that moment was a really powerful one because I was like, oh, these men spend more time with each other than they do with their families. Certainly the guy who's locked up, that's true for. But also like, you know, I know what it's like to work 80 hours a week. You know what it's like to work 80 hours a week. You spend more time with the people who work than you do your family. And there was such humanity passing between them. And I think a part of me was really ashamed that I'd never spent time thinking about the humanity behind bars. And then the other thing that happened that day, I feel weirdly emotional as we're talking about this. There was this young man, I've talked about this before, he made such an impression on me. He had like a

hairnet and he was behind a stainless steel counter. We weren't in like the commissary or the mess hall or anything, but I remembered I was like, I got to go pee. And I like, stood up and the guard was like, I go with you. And I was like, sure, of course. I'm sorry. So we walked by this guy on the way to the restroom. And he was tall and he had dark hair, beautiful smile, ice blue eyes and just like very briefly made eye contact. And it was like, hi, hello, we're humans. That was it. Saw him on the way there. Saw him on the way back. And no part of me had alarm bells. Do you know what I mean? I mean, like, I intuitively was like, that's a good young man.

I say young man. He was probably older than I was. I think I was 26. And later, the guard was like, oh, yeah, you know, that guy we passed, he murdered his family of four around a kitchen table. And I was like, really? You know, because my head's all full of like, but people are convicted of things all the time. They're like, 100%. They found him there.

He confessed it. Like, he murdered four people. There may have been good reason. I don't know. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know his story. But in that moment, I realized I could very briefly look into the eyes of another human being and have no earthly idea what they were capable of. And it made me doubt myself. But it also at some point was like maybe we're all capable of anything. I don't know. I don't know. That, that I think is the only, I think being on the show made me think about those things. as though they were real things for a little while.

Sitting in a death penalty cell, you know, being like, we're acting, we're saying words, but the last people who were in here were sitting around waiting to be executed by the state. And again, all these things collide in my head. You know what I mean? Like, I can't imagine what that's like. I feel such an, I just feel like compassion is so important. And yet there are crimes you could run me through that I'd be like, nope, fucking get them. Get those guys out of my gene pool. And I don't know how to resolve all those things sitting, kind of like piling up in my heart.

It's a lot. I mean, do you, as somebody who was in prison for a while, do you have, or did it change any opinions you have about, like people's ability to reform? Like, did you come out being like everyone 100% needs compassion because we're all just humans? Or were you like, nope, there are some bad guys out there who, like. I think what changed for me was growing up, you're trained in your mind by the public to think prison is where bad people go. And it's only the bad guys in prison.

And then occasionally you would hear the news about wrongful conditions. conviction being overturned or those scenarios, which were once at a blue moon. But then when you're actually in prison, you realize that not everyone's bad, there's good people that made a bad decision in the moment or a couple bad decisions, and they find themselves there. And that's an entirely different category than the guys that are bad people, because there are evil people in the world and there are evil people in prison. But the majority are not that.

I think a great movie that I really enjoy is shot caller. I don't know if you ever watch that. But that, I think, is the perfect, you know, way to describe prison. You have a guy that accidentally kills someone, his friend in a car accident, goes to prison and is forced to become someone who, at heart, he's not. And you see at the end of the movie that he's still a good person because he wants to protect his family. but prison creates him to be something he's not. So I think that's what it is.

You know, so I never saw Shotcaller, but my buddy John was in it. And one of the, shortly after he was done filming, actually. Oh, I forgot John was in it. Oh, yeah. Right after he was done filming, I stayed with him and his family for probably a week. I was in L.A. and I went to stay with them. And he had just wrapped. And so he had a shaved head and skinhead tattoos all over because they took like four or five days to wash off. And my dog got out of the car and like thought about trying to assassinate him. And he was like, what the

fuck? And I was like, bro, any time my dog sees somebody who looks like you, I want her to get between me and them and bark. And he was like, oh yeah, that's what the fuck? And he was like, oh yeah, that's a It's totally fair. It's totally fair. And it's super weird, too, because John's also, like, Jewish and covered in neo-Nazi tattoos. And I was like, this is beyond strange. She's like, yeah, man, the mirror is a really weird place. But he had a bunch of people over at one point.

And one of the people that he had over was someone he'd met during the film who was kind of like a consultant or advisor. Because he'd been in a very similar situation to John's character. and John's the kind of person who like just gets close with everybody. He's an open book and really lovely and he would be speaking much more articulately than I am about all of these things. And I met the guy and he'd been out not long. You know what I mean? I don't know how he got involved with the production, but like lovely. And the way some people who have been.

been very dangerous people are. He was like hyper polite. Do you know what I mean? Like just really like, yes ma'am, it's so lovely to meet you. Like making himself as unthreatening as possible. Tatted up with some, you know, like clearly a history there, whatever. But, you know, we all spent an afternoon together socializing, like, lovely person really enjoyed him. And I remember asking John about him maybe six months or a year later. And I was like, how's he doing? And he was like, man, he didn't make it. You know, like he was so institutionalized that he couldn't, he just couldn't function on the outside. And the person he'd had to become to kind of survive that world was no longer compatible. And I can't remember, this was a long time ago now, I can't remember if he took his own life or if he was murdered, but like no longer with us.

And I think about that guy sometimes, you know, because, you know, like they tried to get him involved. with this production to help with that transition, but something I think maybe just was no longer compatible with non-prisoned life. And that, again, you know, when you put a human face on something, like he was such a kind and gentle person in the short time that I interacted with him, and it just feels, I don't know, like we could do better by somebody like that. How did you get cast in prison break? I just auditioned, like the old-fashioned way. I was the first person cast.

Really? Yeah. I had a callback. John Papsedera cast it. He was so lovely. I'd only been in Hollywood for like a year or two. And for my callback, I was on the Fox lot, and I was nervous, and I locked my keys in my car. And I went, and I can't remember if the car was running or not, but it was like in the lot.

And the Fox Lot's really hard to get onto. They take themselves very seriously. And so like a tow truck was going to be crazy. And I was like, you know what? I'm just going to go do the audition. I'll deal with this later. So I do my audition. And I'm thinking in the back of my head about this car problem.

And so I think it made me less nervous. And I went in and I did my thing. And then I called AAA and I was like, hey. And I explained the situation. They're like, oh, Fox Lot. They're like, it'll be like an hour. Where are you? And I was like, I'm in front of this building.

They're like, stay put. We'll call you when the tow truck is there. And I was like, okay. So I stay put. And an hour goes by. And all the people I audition for walk past me because they've just finished their auditions and they've made their decisions. And I look like the most desperate, pathetic. Like, hi!

How is my audition? I was just like, I'd die. I just want to like, I did that little kid thing where you're like, maybe if I sit really still, they'll be come invisible. And like one by one, they walked past me and they were like, Hi, Sarah. I was like, just, hi. And they would keep going. It was mortifying, but yeah, that was it.

And then I think it was like a week or two later that I started hearing about, you know, the other people who were cast and whatever. But it was the smallest part in the pilot. It was like, it was two scenes. It was itty-bitty. So I don't think anybody took it very seriously as a role. So it's not like I was up against big, competition. Everybody was going for the, you know, that Veronica role was the one that was considered kind of like the big female lead.

So did they not know at the time that your role would supersede hers? No, at the time, she was, Sarah was only supposed to last until the end of the first season. And Veronica was supposed to go all the way through. And when they originally sent me the script, they sent me the script for Veronica because it's a bigger part. And that's what you're supposed to want. But I didn't respond to it. I just, those two scenes, in the pilot, I was like, I like her. She's like sarcastic and ironic and defended and clearly broken. And that's way more interesting to me. So yeah, I don't, I don't even know if they put that much thought and do it. They're like, she'll do. It's fine. Whatever. She was in the mentalist. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love the mentalist growing up. Oh, that's so cool. Amanda Rigetti was also in

the mentalist. She played Grace Van Pelt. Really? Yeah. And I, Amanda and I, played sisters in a colony. And she's one of my favorite people. She's just lovely. Yeah, that was a great show. And I was telling you out there about how I grew up watching 24 and prison break would either be, I think, I want to say it was after at the 9 o'clock and 24 was 8 o'clock. Yeah, maybe.

I don't know what it was. But my parents loved prison break and I watched 24. I'm the type of person that can only really watch one show at one time. Yeah, yeah. But I'm so glad I saw it. You know, it's funny. I'm at the age where so many people go, oh, my God, my parents love to. your show. Just today, I was getting like a smoothie before I got on the plane. And this woman was

like, oh, my mom loves you. And I was like, tell your mom she has wonderful taste. What's her name? She's like, Laura. I was like, tell Laura that it was very nice to meet you. But now kids watch it because it's on Netflix or it was on Netflix. I know. Now kids watch it. Yeah. It's bonkers. Every time you turned on Netflix last year was, you know, trending on the show. So weird. Which, and that's a thing, like when we made the show, television wasn't like that. Like, once a show was off the air. It was off the air. The idea that it could come back and like find a whole new audience. It's part of why we're doing the podcast is it's like a lot of the people who were our first audience who like read the EW articles or the people articles, whatever, who like heard

our stories. They are not the generation currently watching the show. And so it's like, oh, well, let's, you know, let's bring all the actors and writers and directors and stuff and talk about this show and tell these stories. And also kind of the way that it changed our careers because it, I mean, I owe so much to that show. And, you know, you kind of never know what are the 10 minutes that change your life, right? It's like the 10 minutes of that audition changed my life. I had no idea it would turn into this. So now the character you play is named Sarah. Is it easier to play?

No. No, it's harder. It's not about playing it. It's when people say something to you in the street. I don't know if they're talking to me. I didn't think of it that way. I don't know if they don't know me, right? If someone goes, hey, Ian, you assume before you turn around, well, maybe you don't because you have this and it's the same name.

Matt. If somebody goes, hey, Matt, Matt knows that they know him. So if somebody goes, hey, Sarah, I don't know if they're talking about the character or not, which is fine, except that I'm like really weird with fans. I just, I, how do you deal with it? My fans, I think, are a little bit tougher in some scenarios because a lot of them are people that were in prison. Hey, same. Oh, true. And they are, like we were talking about earlier, that social element isn't always there.

Yeah. So you'll catch them either, you know, staring or wanting to say something. So normally I'll say something to them first if I see someone, you know, staring. What will you say? I'll just say, hey, how are you? You know, go up and shake their hand. I always try to be nice and pleasant. When I was on one of my first dates with my girlfriend, we went to this arcade.

And the guy at the bar was just like being really strange towards me. Like he was mad at me or something. And I was just getting to know him. And it turns out he watches every episode of the show. Oh, wow. didn't know how to portray that. Well, because the thing is, they've never seen you. They see the screen.

And sometimes I think people forget that you're not behind a screen. Like, when I was at the airport a couple days ago, this woman was like, and I was like, hi. And she goes, oh, my God, I'm so sorry. And I was like, it's okay. I'm not on TV right now. So hi, it's nice to meet you. But yeah, I imagine it's similar, right, with you as people are used to you being on their

laptop and all of a sudden they don't realize that like IRL Ian Bick is looking back at them like actually seeing yeah I mean I try to interact but like we respond to every comment like we respond to the DMs we respond yeah we're like my Facebook I treat like a blog which is why we've had so much success on it we just we've grown almost 700,000 followers and we're like videos of what we're cooking at home or just like with guests or just everything it's incredible to build that community and I think the engagement helps because you've got to look at all the A or B listers out there are not engaging with their communities. So it opens that door for that.

So people will know that like I'm not drinking alcohol or what I had for dinner. Right. Things like that. Which also there's the negatives of people do take it a step too far and say like the direct messages. Right. So it's kind of just filtering through that. But I think it's a new way to interact with fans. Like back in the day, you know,

could a fan reach out to you through an Instagram to share what they felt about the show? No, they would probably send a letter or however it went about back then. But it's just a totally different world. But even now, it's like weird for me sitting down with certain people. You get nervous sometimes because you're, you watched them. Like, I watched you on my screen for all those hours, you know? Right. But I think as time goes on, you get better and you get more comfortable with people.

and all of that. And the loss of privacy doesn't bother you? No, it's just a part of my life, you know? Like, it's just, I don't know. I think for me it's a little bit different in my field because I'm not one of those podcasters that gets into politics or has a certain... Sure.

I'm so neutral. Right. And I don't touch anything. Whereas I know it's a very dangerous world right now for the individuals that do take aside. So for me, it's just a part of the brand and it show. I think if anything, it helps it because it's, It's humanizing. Hey, I'm just a normal guy that went to prison and rebuilt his life. And, you know, I'm living normally. So I think that's it. But then there's some people where there's so much hate. Like I have friends that are creators that get death threats. And you see that all the time. You know, people getting swatted or. What's swatted? You don't know what swatted? I don't know anything.

Oh, where like either you're on a live stream or doing anything and someone calls the cops on your address saying there's like a shooting or something. illegal happening. What? The cop show up. Yeah, in the middle of it. It's a whole thing. And this is something people, oh my God. Yeah, people do it all the time.

Wow. All the street. You know what a streamer is, right? Yeah, I think so. Like a Twitch streamer? Yeah, yeah. People like that, yeah. People watching other people playing video games.

Exactly. I still don't get it. Or that. I don't get video games. Like I'm, I live like it's 1850. I don't, I don't like, I'm so off grid. It's just, yeah. And, but that's a weird thing because I'm a

wildly private person. And the business has changed in ways that like, I kind of feel bad because I know that there are people who are so good with like always taking photos with fans, always being. But I, you know, on the one hand, there's a part of me that's like, you don't want to get to know me. You want to know my characters. I don't want you to know me because then the next time I play a character, you've got to get past that. Don't worry about who I'm. I am. But it's, I mean, it's, I'm, I'm bad at it. I'm bad at, like, I still don't think of myself as any kind of, like, celebrity. It's a terrible word. I'm, I'm an actor. I'm a storyteller. I'm a director now more than anything else, but I find it really weird and I'm not good at it,

especially if I'm with my kids. Like, if I'm with my kids, I just turn into like a lion. It's all I can do to not be like, please go away. These are civilians, leave them alone. But it's interesting because, like, you don't play a character so much, although I imagine Ian Bick and capital I, capital B, Ian Bick are two different people. But I've got a lot of respect for the way that, you know, you interact with everybody and make sure that everybody feels seen and heard and, like, it's not endemic to who I am. I feel kind of bad about that. but I also, I don't know how to force it.

You know what I mean? Well, maybe a part of you is opening up in that direction. Starting a podcast is a huge step in that direction. Because you are, I mean, you're interacting with your, think about it. All those people that came to love you during the show are now getting a different side of you through the podcast, which they don't get with that version that's on screen. Yeah, that's true. So it's, you might not pick up on it right away, but it's there, you know, it brings down a wall. that's for sure.

Yeah, I guess it does. Well, and you know, to be honest, during the show, Wentworth was like allergic to being famous. It really, it was so hard on him. And I felt so protective of him because he was in the closet at the time. He wasn't out. He's out now. But I think in some ways that really kind of colored my early sense of what it means to be a public figure in any way. You know, like the paparazzi really were relentless with him.

And I think there are other people who would have been really grateful, you know, like there are people I worked with on Walking Dead who loved it and were great at being famous, like really, really great at it. Norman is better at being famous than anybody I've ever met. He's just like, it doesn't change, nothing changes him. Do you know what I mean? Like norm is norm is norm is norm. And you could give him $150 million or you could take everything away.

He doesn't change. And that's amazing. It's a superpower. Wentworth, like, I was the only one he was out to for the run of the show, although since having talked to a lot of the guys, they're like, we knew. But I was the only one that he told maybe because we were playing romantic interests. And also, we had a lot in common, like the very first night that we ever met and spent time together. I was like, oh, okay, we're going to be friends. But while the show was on the air, show premieres in 2005. What happens in 2007? The iPhone.

And so now everybody's got a camera. And the idea of privacy starts collapsing in on itself. And it really, he hated it. I mean, he hated it. And he felt, I think I want to say, it seemed to me from what he was saying at the time. I don't know how he'd put this now, but it seemed like he felt unsafe because of it. And so I think part of me created a very defended position. This is a Bose moment.

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Visit Subaru.com slash hybrid to learn more. Maximum range based on EPA estimated combined fuel economy and a full tank of fuel. Actual mileage and range may vary. Almost reflexively out of watching that effect on him. I read somewhere, I don't know if it's fake news or not that he actually had the cops called on him or they thought he was an inmate that escape from prison. I never heard that. Okay, so it might be fake.

That would be funny. I have no idea. but that, I mean, people are capable of anything. Yeah. It could just be a fake story that popped up. It could be a fake news, but. But speaking of the news, I did read an article that was talking about how it was your idea to come up with Sarah being addicted to drugs. Is that true?

Yeah. I, yeah. I, well, I remember I told you I read the character and I was like, she feels broken. And I think because nobody was really planning. planning on her going very far in the show or, you know, past season one. There wasn't like a ton of backstory that was sort of written around her. And I went to our creator, Paul Schering, and I was like, I would like her to be an addict. And he was like, okay. You know, I mean, I wrote, I was a dork. I wrote all that. I like wrote a whole character bio. And I was like, here, you don't have to

use any of this, but this is what I'm using. So let me know if any of it's off base. And there was, there was a bunch in there about addiction because because I thought it would be more interesting to play somebody who was working in a prison because she saw parts of herself in them too. Again, there but for the grace of God kind of thing.

As opposed to just like, she's a really good person who wants to make a different. You know what I was like? That's less interesting to me than somebody who also feels they have to atone for the mess they've made of their own life through addiction. And also because, you know, my sense of things from the research I've done and whatever is that addiction is often a big part of the life of people in prison. So that would be some

common ground. I don't think it was narcotics. I think I just said the word addiction and then all of a sudden I read a script and I was like, oh, opioids. Okay. Heroin. All right. I thought we were going to talk about booze, but sure. But it was an interesting part of her to pull. play. How far did you go to learn about addiction to get into that role? I read the big book, which the AA, yeah, it's like the AA Bible kind of a thing, which has so much wisdom in it. And I was like, oh, maybe everybody should go through a 12-step program and something in their lives. And I read Junkie once I realized the William H. Burroughs, I think. Once I saw the heroine, storyline. I read Junkie and was so terrified by the detox part of it. He describes in really

vivid detail what it's like to quit heroin, cold turkey. And I was like, Jesus Christ, they should be teaching these in schools. No one would ever do drugs again. Like, this just sounds awful. And then, you know, it's Hollywood. So I talked to lots of people who... had been in the program and who'd been, you know, been through it. But it definitely mattered to me to put real thought and intentionality into that because so many people struggle with addiction and I didn't want to like, I didn't want any part of that performance to feel patronizing or judgmental or off or anything like that, you know. What was your favorite moment from filming prison break? That's an interesting question. There were a lot of them.

most of them I think of in the first season, there's a really cool space in a show in the first season between, in the time between when you start filming and it starts airing. Because you don't know how anybody's going to respond. Nobody has reviewed it. Nobody has watched it. Nobody has started to blog about it. The internet was very different back then. There was no social media, but there was this site called Television Without Pity that would

recap things and there were lots of like chats on it and stuff. It was kind of an early Reddit, I think, in some ways for television. So all you have is this little bubble of people who've been making a show together. And you have your faith in the work that you've done. And so many of my favorite moments are in that time. You know, like Wentworth and I would film scenes together. And we were both really interested in trying to become better actors. And we spent a lot of time. It was very early in my career. So I was still learning how to migrate my kind of theater experience, which still wasn't extensive.

I mean, I'm in like, you know, mid-20s. But I was still trying to learn how to act on camera. And so we spent a lot of time talking about how to work and how to, how to be the best actors for one another. And then sometimes things would just go wrong. I had to say the line, we had to perform a procedure. And to this day, I couldn't tell you why it made me laugh, but I couldn't get it out with a straight face. And there was something about,

we had to perform a procedure that struck us both as like something that like an alien would say as somebody that they'd been abducted. Like, I don't know what. I don't. We had a weird sense of humor back then. We were both watching a lot of family guy. And I couldn't get it out without laughing.

And Wentworth was face down with his shirt off because there was like a burn on his back. And he was supposed to just open his eye and look at me. And he couldn't keep a straight face. And it was just one of those moments where you're like, hey, you know, you're going to work on. something kind of cool with a friend and you're making each other laugh. And by the time we were done, the crew couldn't keep a straight face.

Like the camera operators were laughing. I mean, it was just like this sort of moment of joy. And Amaldi used to light up the set. Like just this like beautiful human being so full of like light and joy. And he was so happy to be there and so grateful for it and did such great work. on the show. We never worked together in that first season. We were never in the same scene. But he'd be coming off set and I'd be going to set and he'd be like, Mommy! It'd be like, Poppy! And I'd give him a big hug and like, you know, I'd be like, how was it? He'd be like,

oh man, that scene was so good and this director is great and you're going to love it. I'd be like, sweet and like up top. And, you know, he'd be headed back to the trailers and I'd be headed up to the infirmary and that sense of people playing on a team together being like, hey, I think we're doing something that's okay. And then opinions take, you know, then the show airs and there's numbers and there's reviews and some people get famous and hate it and some people get famous and love it. You know what I mean? And that, that's fine, but that little magical time before a show has aired are some of my favorite memories of the show. And then when we were nominated for Golden Globe, I, um,

I called the, what's the hard rock? It was a House of Blues in Chicago because I knew they had a private room. I'd been at a party there. And I was like, hey, is that private room available at like eight tonight? And they're like, who are you and what do you want? I was like, well, I have cast of present break. We were just nominated for Golden Globe. They're like, yeah, we got you guys.

So I called the whole cast and I was like, House of Blues, private room, 8 o'clock, let's go. and everybody showed up. It's the only I think it's the only party we ever had where everybody came. Because Wentworth wasn't so famous yet that he was just like, I don't want to be out in public.

And one of our producers showed up at the last minute and I stiffed him with the bill. I was like, Kev, it was Kevin Hooks. He was our producer and director. I was like, Kev, you can invoice this to Fox, right? He's like, I don't know. This is like several thousand dollars

worth of food and liquor. And I was like, cool, let me know if there's a problem. And he was like, I'm going to murder you for this. I was like, sorry. But again, it was just that lovely moment of like a really innocent celebration of people just genuinely feeling good. When you play a character for that long and it's such a big part of your life, does it ever go away? Like even to this day, what, 15 years later? It's 20 years? 20. Wow. 20. But not from the last episode airing, is it? No, no, no. Because there was Five was like a billion years ago.

Does it ever go away? I don't know. I don't know who I'd be without it. So I'm not sure. I had a really weird experience once. I worked with this refugee group and I was in a a women's meeting in a refugee camp in Kurdistan in 2013, a group of Syrian women.

And through a translator, I was talking about how things were in the camp. And it wasn't great, right? It was January of 2013. So the Arab Spring had just happened. Camp was pretty intense. And I was asking questions. And I'd spoken with some of the camp management. And they're like, you know, this is a very traditionally Muslim population of women.

They don't talk about things. but, you know, go in there and do your thing, whatever. I was over there talking about talking to people and I was going to do some writing for the Huffington Post to kind of share what I was seeing. And we start talking and I start asking questions. And partway through I realized that they're talking to me as though I was their doctor.

Because prison break was really big in the Middle East and they were genuinely talking to me as though, like, they were saying things they hadn't told them. anybody else about like feminine care and menstrual products and whatever and one of the people from the camp management was with me and was like we've been asking these questions for freaking ever and I was like I cannot tell you how stupid this is but they're talking to me like I'm a physician because I've played one on TV and she was like that cannot be I was like I think that's what's going on. And sure enough, like, you know, somebody at one point was like,

Dr. Tegretti, and I was like, oh my God, this is the weirdest moment of my life. And, like, helpful, do you know what I mean? Like really good to know that, you know, certain things we can do to serve you better and to run this camp in ways that are more respectful of your needs and religion. But, I mean, like, how absurd is that? You know what I mean? I don't know who I would be without this character because there's all those weird little moments in your life that vector differently because of it. You know, I think it's a really impactful moment where it relates to my show and my platform and the individuals I interview is the moment where you make the decision to unlock the door, to leave the door unlocked. And you see in all of these interviews I do,

you know, we go through their childhood and we get to the moment where they make that decision where if they're law enforcement, they go down the right path or if they're someone that isn't that turns into a con goes down the wrong path. Right. And I think seeing that on screen is such a powerful moment that is, I think it might even have been bigger than what the producers or directors even realized at the time too. But so what do you think it says? I mean, because she becomes a felon herself in that moment. I think it says that anyone could end up in prison themselves, you know, And we're all, you were a good person in that show, you know, and that one decision. And it also goes to show that people make a bad decision for the right reasons as well.

And we just don't know where that path could lead. So I think that's the cultural impact on it. Interesting. Yeah. Well, the other thing is that the show sets it up as a hero's decision because she's saving the lives of our two leads, right? Right? And so it's interesting because in some ways the show is saying this is a felony, but it's the right thing to do, which is a wild message, especially on a network run by Rupert Murdoch. You know what I mean? Like it's so interesting to me that, I mean, we talk on the podcast with some of the writers. We're like, how did you get away with this? And we just kept waiting for someone to say no. Like a character named Teabag. Who was a sex offender? Who was a sex offender?

And I'm like, and I was like, how did you not, how was that name not censored? They're like, we think the censors didn't know what it meant? Like, I, it's weird. But that's so interesting. I've never heard anybody talk about that moment that way. And you look at the sub ramifications of, like, say, a tea bag getting out who causes more harm because of her decision. So that's the same thing in real life, too, with individuals. And a lot of law enforcement I interview guards or, you know, 80s.

agents or cops, they could have went down that path too. Something happened in their childhood and they chose to go a different way. And there's cops I've interviewed that are still active that battled addiction too. So it doesn't discriminate. No, of course. It's really, I think that's a very powerful moment, even more so now as, you know, it becomes more common to talk about people going to prison. That's really interesting.

I mean, it's so crazy. You think about like a bunch of writers in a room in Los Angeles going, How are we going to get them out? Okay, so we got the tattoos. We've got the same. We've got the... What if she just leaves the door open? Like, I mean, these things...

These things end up having some effect. That gave me the jitters watching it. Like, I was at the edge of my seat. That was the best season. Yeah, it was the best season. Yeah. Season one's the best season. Oh, by far.

But I also love the foreign, out of the country, experience. Oh, that's season three. Yeah. That's the one I haven't seen that we're about to rewatch. Oh, yeah. You got to watch. Yeah, yeah. I will. That's incredible.

But just it was just so good. It really had you at the edge of your seat. Is she going to leave the door open? What's going to happen? And not knowing what the other seasons would be like, I thought maybe they'd fail from the escape. Oh, interesting. And they would just reset.

Oh, and they would go back and have to start all over. Yeah, I didn't think they were going to escape. Oh, man, that would have been a really different show. Yeah. You know, they, the very end, the last two episodes of season, four were Sarah gets thrown in this women's prison and that was actually going to be all of season five. So they canceled the show after season four for a bunch of reasons that aren't mine to talk

about, but they had this season five pitch, which is Sarah gets thrown in and Michael's got a break her out. And they ended up condensing that into two episodes with three. with Lori Petty, who by the way is one of my favorite human beings on the face of the earth. She's an extraordinary actor. I remember seeing her for the first time in a league of their own. And they had this whole women's prison thing kind of set up. And it would have been interesting to see what they did with that over 20 episodes instead of two.

You know, if you'd really kind of had more time because a man breaking, a woman out of a woman's prison feels like a very different. I'm not suggesting they go full Mrs. Doubtfire with it, but like that would have been a very different kind of a world. Yeah. Hmm. Was it hard to go from prison break to then the Walking Dead, which also became an iconic show, which by the way I haven't seen. That's okay. Me neither. It scares me. Oh, you haven't watched any of the episodes? No, I can't do horror. Terrifying. My friends loved it in high school. That and they would watch Walking Dead and Breaking Bad, which I didn't.

didn't see Breaking Bad until years later. Breaking Bad is genius. I love Breaking Bad. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Brian Crenson, I think, it's like one of the performances that you're just like, oh, okay. But everyone watched that and Walking Dead. Even in prison, Walking Dead was huge.

Is that right? They loved it every, what was that, every Thursday, I think. Well, we ended up back in prison, which is kind of funny. Like, by the third season of Walking Dead, the action is taking place in a prison. And I remember being like, is this my career? Like, do I end up? I'm the woman that's in prison. I mean, again, the magic of Walking Dead to me was that time between having shot it and it aired.

And we shot the whole first season before anything aired because the first season is only six episodes. I was really grateful. Prison Break taught me a lot about what to expect on Walking Dead once it got big. it also, to be perfectly candid, taught me a lot about the kind of culture I wanted to create on a set very intentionally. By the end of prison break, things were pretty toxic. And there were aspects of that set

that I found really hard and unpleasant to work in. And so I came into Walking Dead really conscious about like, how do we create a culture on set from the beginning of great? gratitude and respect and really caring for one another. And I was lucky in that Andy and John, the other leads of the show, felt the same way for their own reasons, about like, let's really try and do great work just for each other. No one's going to watch this. We didn't think anybody was going to watch. Who watches a zombie show? And, uh,

and the three of us all just really, really got along and our families got along. And so we kind of had this, we had this sense of like a shared vision of what a set could be in terms of respecting the crew and, you know, that first season, like, learn your lines at home. Don't bring your sets. Don't bring your sides to set. Like, show up prepared. Show up. It was a race to get to set first. This bullshit where actors are late to set and keep an entire set waiting as some kind of flex were like, nope. And like the three of us were the first people to set. And on a very rare occasion where somebody would show up as like a guest star and not come correct, we'd be like, here's how we do things here.

And, you know, usually it was me or Andy, and we'd point at John and be like, when we're done talking with you, if you aren't straightened out, you talk to him next. So he's the people. We're the nice ones. And John's the nicest person in the world. But he was very happy to, you know, kind of play that role. And so that in some ways was the big gift that I brought into Walking Dead. You know, not everything, not everything stays kind. way you'd hope it would. And you only have so much, you know, you only have so much power to sort of change a culture of a show once it's set. And if you don't have a lead role or whatever. And so it was one of the things I'm most proud of in my career is the culture we were able to create for those first few seasons of Walking Dead. We took really good care of each other. Does it feel weird not being on an active series as someone cast in it or as an actor? I know you're in the director role now, but not being kind of like a part of that for a long period of time because those shows stretched multiple seasons.

You mean being on a show after? After those two. Like a show's still on and I'm not on it? Or even now. You know, I'll be honest, it feels like another life. Like COVID hit and I hard reset my whole life. COVID was the first time in 15 years I didn't have my passport in my purse because I was on a plane. every 10 days at least and crossing international border at least every two to three weeks.

And I'd been at a dead sprint since I got out of grad school. And that was 18 years from 2002 to 2020. And COVID stopped me. And I was like, whoa, I'm missing my kids. I'm missing my community. I'm like, and I just made some massive changes. I was like, I refuse to leave BC for the next three years for work. I was like, I'm not, my kids' first question when I got home for years was when are you leaving again. And I really like my kids. They're great. You know what I mean?

I was like, I had them so I could raise them. And so the transition to directing was really interesting because, you just occupy space in a totally different way on a set. And I'm so comfortable with it now. But it's part of why I'm so weird with fans when I see people now. I don't think of myself that way. It feels like another human being. Which is not to say that I wouldn't act again or that I wouldn't,

but like my life is just about something different now. And it was about, it was centered on acting. I'm so grateful for it. But I think at a certain point I looked at that 18 years and was like, I don't want the next 18 years to be like this. Or at a certain point, I'm going to look up. My kids are going to be like, who the fuck are you? And I have loved the kind of time that we've had together.

And at some point, you know, they're going to be out. And I can reassess. I don't really have a grand plan. I just, I want to keep telling stories and I want to tell stories that matter. And like, it's funny that I'd never thought of fire country this way, but being a part of a show that gets to, like, talk about felons as good people who can put out fires,

that matters. I'm proud of that. I gave you some inspirational spark. You did. I'm really grateful for that. I don't know. That may sound really, really weird, but it all feels like it happened to somebody else. right now. How do you think teenage Sarah would view you today? What would she think? Teenage Sarah would look at me now and go, that makes sense. Teenage Sarah would look at me, would look at famous Sarah and go, what the fuck are you doing? Like, what? What?

Yeah, I think teenage Sarah would look at director Sarah and go, yeah, that tracks. That tracks. I get it. I love that you say tracks. Yeah. Sorry, no pun intended. Yeah. How about you? How does teenage Ian look at modern day Ian? I think he realizes that everything I went through I had to go through because it, you know, it led me to where I'm at now. And, you know, I went through what I went through at a very young age, had an enormous amount of pressure put on me. Yeah. Just massive, massive mistakes, massive, massive failure.

and it's kind of like gut-wrenching at the time. And I lost a lot of, you know, my late teenage years and all throughout my 20s. And then to be in that huge amount of debt at a young age, it's, it's, I see what it does to adults. So let alone to be a kid facing that, I didn't think it would ever turn into this. When I was in prison, I always tell people, you know,

when I was in solitary for a few months, I drew out notes of everything I wanted my life to become and how I was gonna get there down to like, what LLC I would own and the cars and everything. And I have a lot of that now, but it wasn't from the way I expected it to be. And I just never expected myself to be here interviewing. And also, I was in the music industry. In a way, I'm still doing that, you know, booking talent and dealing with rappers because

we interview a lot of rappers or, you know, selling tickets is selling views, like promoting with clips. and getting an audience, you're on stage. So in a way, I'm doing what I did as a teenager just different. So life came full circle for me. Same skill set. Same skill set. Yeah, a lot less risk.

I'm happy with what I'm doing. I've learned so many life lessons that most people don't get in their time. And I'm young. You know, I'm 30. But I've just, I've lived so much. I feel like I'm in like my third or fourth act. Yeah. But to me, I think what's most important is that my parents get to see success.

now from me. We had a good moment, you know, over the summer with my mom's birthday and it was the first time I got to actually like pay for her for a dinner. And last year I got to send them on vacation. So it was really cool for that because I put them through so much. Sure. My mom coming from a, you know, a family that really did not agree with the whole no college thing for me and also devastating seeing me go to prison. I was kind of, she was kind of like cast it as. you know, the black sheet in a way. So for her to see this all come full circle, I think is good. And my dad's here almost every day. Really? Yeah, he comes. He loves listening to the interviews. And he thought it was so cool I was interviewing you today. I listened to the episode he did of your show.

Oh, really? I really enjoyed it. Yeah, yeah. I think every parent should sit down with their kid and just talk to them and record it because that'll live there forever. Like his great, great grandkids will be able to see it. My girlfriend and I, we record episodes for just us. I had her on my show, too, but like just private ones and we keep it in a Google drive. Wow. You know, future kids or whatever could see that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's so cool.

A time capsule of who you are now. Yeah, just having those conversations. But it was so good being able to sit down with my dad and people, the audience loves him a lot. And he's just, he's a good guy. You know, he's 80? No way. Yeah, he just turned 80 a couple weeks ago. Wow, happy birthday.

My mom's 80. Really? Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. He's a caterer. He still gets up and grinds, and that's where I get the work ethic from. Yeah. But he's been there for me, you know, from visiting me out in Wisconsin at the prison to life coming full circle here. It's cool. Wow. So it sounds like what you're saying is you kind of wouldn't change the journey. Is that right? I would change the people that kind of got hurt along the way. Okay. And damage that was caused. But I wouldn't, and I guess in the scheme of things, I wouldn't change the outcome of anything. Everything happened. way it was supposed to. The pain, the suffering, damage, all of that. And I think it's also something that mitigates that is the ability to make it right. I interview a lot of people

that were in prison for something similar that have no intention to either repay the money or make amends or anything of that nature. And I think my mission, my platform has always been to clear the past, you have to make it right, you know, financially. And I'm like right at that, like, you know, 90-yard line. So I think this will be the year to really pull that off and to me that was why a lot of my bad decisions came from that mentality of I'm going to make it right but I just kept putting gasoline on the fire right but I've since learned from them and now I live a very like chill life and you know here we are that's amazing thank you Sarah do you um do you have like a like when you said you were writing down your plan what comes next on

the plan from here? I've been asked that before of like, what do you do after you pay off, like say the restitution? Because that's what always motivated me. Right. And I guess it's just, you know, after that, it's building for my future, for my kids, for my family. I think it's just like doing your best you can to be a good human being, giving back wherever you can. Sometimes it doesn't even feel like you're giving back enough. And so many people that come on are so, they're so thankful to have the opportunity to share their story and have their voice and stuff. Yeah. But some days it just doesn't feel like enough, you know?

Yeah. So I want to do more of that, maybe start some type of nonprofit for people affected by the criminal justice system or something. Okay. I've got, I don't know if this is the thing, but this is something that's been in my head for a while. I've never talked about it publicly yet. But I'm putting this out there in case somewhere our brains collide with a solution. I started volunteering with hospice about a year ago. And I'm really interested in hospice in prisons. I think there is, you know, I've been reading, by the way, this guy, I'm dying for you to have this guy on if he's still alive. I don't honestly know.

So this is called committing journalism, the prison writings of Red Hogg. There's this guy named Danny Martin, who is an inmate in California for a long time in the 80s for armed robbery. I believe, and he started writing articles for the San Francisco Chronicle. And so there's like 50 of his articles in here, along with his editor and the court case of, you know, all the things, whatever. But one of the articles that I just read was about health care system in prison, and this is going to shock you, but it's not great. And a lot of people die in prison. And as I've been working more and more with hospice, I've been thinking like, I think I'm kind of fascinated by the project of like extreme empathy. Do you know what's how can I challenge myself to be the most

empathetic person I can become because I believe in that but it's also really hard because I can be a judgmental bitch sometimes and I'm not proud of that but that's like in me. And for like the last maybe six months I was talking to this guy who has started doing breath work with inmates in prison as ways of helping people through addiction and anger and whatever. And as soon as I heard about his work, I was like, oh man, I would love to do hospice work in prison. Like, I just think that would be, I think everybody deserves the opportunity to die with dignity and respect. I like that. So if you ever cross paths with anybody in your world who could help me work on some of that, I imagine there are hospice workers who go into prisons, but that's something that I'm feeling

very much is like on my path in the future. So putting that out because you never, you never, know when, you know, you're going to text me and be like, galleys, I have this idea. I got a guy for you. No, we're making a lot more connections in states. I always get invited to prisons and that's part of my way to get back. We were just in a prison in Connecticut the other day where I go in and speak and share my story. And I never had that when I was at prison, you know, people coming in to motivate you and hearing about life after prison. A big focus of my story is, you know, the rehabilitation aspect. Yeah. And reentry aspect.

And it's scary going back in, but it's also therapeutic because you're giving people hope. You have a big impact on individuals like that. What's the scary part? I think that feeling of the doors locking behind you and not being able to get back out. It's different being on when you're on both sides of the shoe, which you probably had a similar experience when you went to that prison that first time. just, you know. Yeah, although I was never in danger of being locked. You know what I mean?

Yeah. I don't know what that's like. And I'm grateful for not knowing what it's like, but I can't pretend to know what that's like. Yeah. But Sarah, I appreciate you come on the show today. This was so good. Man, I feel like I was trying to make sense of things in my head that are still chaotic, and I apologize for me. We've been going for two hours.

Jesus. I have we really? Yeah, we did two hours. Yeah. I'm so sorry. No, you're one of those individuals that I could talk to for like 10. Listen, there's like a good 15 minutes in there. Just cut it down. No, no, no. I'm not cutting anything. Oh, my God. You did good. It was a really, really good episode. And like, I appreciate the time you've given us today. I never thought a million years I'd be sitting down with you.

I love that you guys brought me out for this. Thank you. And again, thank you for the work you're doing.