Locked In with Ian Bick - Surviving 25 Years in a Connecticut State Prison | Michael Liebowitz

Episode Date: December 5, 2024

Michael Liebowitz spent 25 years behind bars in a Connecticut state prison, and in this episode, he opens up about his journey through incarceration. From the challenges of navigating prison life to the lessons learned over two decades, Michael shares his story with raw honesty. He discusses the decisions that led to his imprisonment, the personal growth he experienced, and the realities of life after release. #PrisonLife #25YearsInPrison #TrueCrimeStories #LifeBehindBars #PrisonReform #SurvivingPrison #IncarcerationStories #RedemptionJourney Connect with Michael Liebowitz: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-liebowitz-a88a74276 YT: https://www.youtube.com/@therationalegoistML Buy his book: https://www.amazon.com/Down-Rabbit-Hole-Corrections-Encourages/dp/197448064X Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Presented by Tyson 2.0 & Wooooo Energy: https://tyson20.com/ https://woooooenergy.com/ Buy Merch: https://www.ianbick.com/shop Use code lockedin at checkout to get 20% off your order Timestamps: 00:00:00 Introduction and Background 00:04:32 Childhood Reflections and Perceptions 00:09:15 The Role of Apologies in Healing 00:13:44 Arrest and Imprisonment at 21 00:18:50 Understanding Criminal Psychology 00:23:36 Dangers of Speaking Out Against Corrections Staff 00:28:18 Reflections on Unjust Sentencing and Denial 00:32:50 Life Inside a Maximum Security Prison 00:37:21 Challenges in Criminal Rehabilitation 00:41:49 Overcoming Life's Challenges After Prison 00:46:30 Essential Reading for Inmates and Their Families 00:50:37 Adapting to Modern Technology After Prison 00:55:08 Navigating Acceptance after Incarceration 00:59:43 Impact of Personal Relationships on Reintegration 01:04:19 The Importance of Ideas in Driving Civilization 01:08:34 Challenges in Reforming Criminal Youth Programs 01:12:56 Bargain Finds on Facebook Marketplace Powered by: Just Media House : https://www.justmediahouse.com/ Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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We have great options for any budget, and we ship nationwide and eco-friendly insulated packaging. Visit us online at pointraisechease.com and get 15% off your first store. from our family to his. Happy celebrating. Michael, welcome to Lockton, a fellow Connecticut resident. Yeah. Thank, who connected us? Carlos Rubolo. Yes, Carlos was here last week.

Great guy. It was really nice sitting down with him. And I love that he built a business. Yes, he did. After prison, super successful. Is that how you guys met in prison? Yeah, I mentored him in prison, actually. Oh, you were the mentor.

He brought you up multiple times. Oh, awesome. Good advertisement. Yeah, that's so cool. And I want to plug you're the author of a couple books you brought me if you want to, you know, give a little description about these what I'm holding right here. All right. So the one that's in your left hand down the rabbit hole, how the culture of corrections encourages crime, was written by my cellmate of 11 years, Brent McCall and myself.

He's the primary author. I mostly aided in research and debating and would write some rough drafts, but he did the bulk of the writing. And it's just about how the culture of. of prisons is not conducive to the stated goals of corrections of, you know, incapacitation, punishment, deterrence, rehabilitation, all prisons really do is incapacitate. They're essentially warehouses and that explains why. The other book, View from a Cage, My Transformation from Convict to Crusader for Liberty, is basically an intellectual biography.

It's how I came to think the way that I do. And they're both very good if I don't say so myself. And you have a podcast, too, if you want to tell people the name of that. I do have a podcast. It's called The Rational Egoist. The title comes from Ein Rann's philosophy of objectivism and her theory of ethics, but it's not focused solely on that. I've interviewed politicians, economists, philosophers, professors, people in the criminal justice field, ex-convicts. It's basically about ideas.

It's a discussion about ideas. Sometimes I'll have guests on to debate. Sometimes it's just discussion, but it's a very good show, I think. Awesome. Well, and hopefully you'll be filming some episodes here at the studio. I plan on it. Great. Did you grow up in Connecticut? I did. I grew up in Weather'sfield, Connecticut. What was that like growing up there?

Well, I grew up in the poor section of Weathersfield and the Weathersfield projects. Now, these projects aren't what comes to mind when most people hear projects. But nonetheless, it was, you know, it's low-income housing. It was we were the poor kids in town and we were the troublemakers and always getting into all kinds of stuff. My mother was a heroin addict. My father was an alcoholic. My mother raised me. And going, you know, when you go to school in that type of situation,

Weatherfield's a pretty well off town. So the other kids in town, they know that we're the poor kids. My parents are getting arrested and they're in the paper. So the other kids' parents are telling them stay away from me. I don't know this at that age. I just know how the other kids are acting towards me. You know what I mean? So it was rough growing up.

going up, you know, cops are always at my house. I'm in a neighborhood who were fighting. My father was always in trouble. He was known to be a badass. So that's what I wanted to be. You know, all the kids in the neighborhood looked up to him. So that's how it was. It wasn't all sunshine and rainbows.

Did you have any resentment towards your parents when kids were kind of like making fun of you and pointing you out? Resentment came later. As a young kid, no. once I was in my teens, early 20s, yes, I resented them. I blamed them. It was their fault. I turned out the way I did.

I wasn't responsible for anything. And then later in prison, as I started to read and learn about myself and my own decisions, I realized that I'm responsible for my own decisions. And I dropped the resentment. It's just not worth it. I had very good relationships with both my parents before they died. So the resentment. toward them is gone. Do you think that the environment that you were born into help put you on the

path that you would end up taking? It's so hard to say because there's so many people that have been through worse than I went through that don't become criminals. There were kids in my neighborhood, for instance, that were what we would call squares. They weren't getting in any trouble. They stayed in their yard, you know, played with taka trucks or whatever. So how did they turn out okay, but I didn't. But that said, of course, anything that any person becomes is influenced by the environment that they're in, but a person can have a horrible upbringing and say, you know what, I don't want that.

And I'm going to go do something different. I didn't. I chose to be like my father and my mother for that matter. How would friends and family describe you as a kid growing up? Well, that would depend who you ask. Like I got, for instance, my friend Tom Pentlow, very good friend of mine. he was the youth officer in town when I was a kid and he would always try to help me he'd pull me aside have talks with me and when we talk nowadays I'm a little hard on myself and he says no you're

always a good kid you just you know you did have some problems you were a little manipulative and I'm like no it was my responsibility so he would say that I always had potential but I had it rough my mother had you asked her when she was alive she would have taken full responsibility and said I was the greatest kid ever. Some people that I used to rob or beat up, they'd say I was the devil incarnate. My friend Subby, who's out there, would say, no, I was always a good kid. I just did bad things. So I guess it really just depends on the person you ask in their perspective.

If you ask me, I would say that I could be kind at times, but I could be the most vile, ruthless person you could come across. And there was no rhyme or reason for why one person would get my compassion or another person would get my vengeance. So I don't know why. I don't know why to this day. I mean, I know why I acted the way I did. I just can't differentiate why I was so nice to some people. I have a friend and when I talked to her when I got out of prison and she said, see, I never saw that side of you. I never showed it to you. So I don't know, but I don't know how everybody would view me. It's a good question. How do you view yourself from that time period now that you're older and wiser?

I think I was a vicious human being that just would trample anybody to get what I want when I wanted it. I thrived on being ruthless. I loved having a reputation for being somebody that would just hurt you if you ever crossed me. I sought to cultivate that. I remember the day I actually did away with my conscience. I was 14 years old. Let me back up just a little bit. When I was 13, my grant, when I was 12, actually.

actually a month before my 13th birthday, my grandfather died. My grandfather was wealthy, and he used to pay our rent in the projects. They wanted to evict us for years because of the cops, the drugs, the chaos, but my grandfather had money and he had influence, so they were unable to do so. When he died, our rent went unpaid for a month, so they evicted us. I ended up living with my grandmother, who was well off also. She was a bad alcoholic. Like, living with her was more chaotic than living with my drug addict mother.

So when I moved out of the projects, not long after all my old friends from the projects turned on me. I don't know why to this day. I can guess maybe they were jealous. Maybe they thought now I think I'm better than them because I live in a nice neighborhood. Whatever, I don't know. So then I sought out Hartford kids. I wanted to hang out with the city kids, the tough kids. My friend Subby was one of them.

And so I made it my business to ingratiate myself with them. And one day I was walking down Franklin Avenue and Harford with a couple of friends. And they saw someone they didn't like. And they said, well, let's jump them. And I'd never jumped anybody before. And I said, okay. And we jumped this kid and beat him very, very badly. And I went home that night and I felt awful.

Like my stomach was churning. I just felt terrible. And I said to myself, well, it probably not as articulately as I was, I'm going to voice it to you. But if I'm going to live this life, I can't have this guilt. And I just pushed it out of my head. And after that, acts of violence were nothing to me. So do you think if you never had that experience, you wouldn't have become that person?

I can't say. It's impossible because I wouldn't be me if I didn't have those experiences. I'd be a different person altogether. And who knows how I would have become. I have no idea. What would my experiences have been? How would I have reacted to him? I know that as a kid, I valued the troublemakers in the neighborhood.

That's who I looked up to. That's who I wanted to be like. Did you fit in the most with those individuals? Yeah. Absolutely. That's where I felt most comfortable. We would, you know, vandalized houses, break in the cars, whatever. We just didn't care.

Stale from stores. That was what we did. What would you say to some of those individuals that you, you know, antagonized or vandalized? or stole from if you cross pass with them now as a kid. I've had plenty of opportunity and I've apologized to every person I could, including the primary victim or one of the primary victims of the crime for which I went to prison. Most people actually say, oh, it was a long time ago.

We were kids. Don't worry about it. I've yet to have anybody say to me, screw you. You were awful to me and that's all there is to it. most people are actually pretty gracious in accepting apologies. Do you think time is a big healer for these types of situations? I hate to say yes because I don't believe that time on its own heals anything. I think that people have to work towards whether they want to forgive somebody

or toward the type of person they're going to become. There's people who don't let things go from 30, 40, 50 years ago. Some people work on, I'm not going to be that person. I'm not going to be resentful. I'm not going to be angry. So I don't think time on its own no does that. I think people do that. Do you think that's one of the effects of prison, like when we look at cause and effect and you look at like a lengthy prison sentence?

Do you think that's like one of the indirect outcomes of a lengthy prison sentence, the time aspect? No. For me, maybe. But the vast majority of people in prison don't do anything to better themselves. They don't read. They don't introspect. They're not journaling. they're not trying to become better people.

So how could I say that prison causes that? I can't. It's always up to the individual to do it. And given the way the prison system is, I mean, it's a joke as far as all the incentives are on the wrong side of things. But even if the incentives were all on the right side of things doesn't guarantee it because the person actually has to do the work and want to be better, want to become a good human being.

And that takes a hell of a lot of work. When you're as screwed up as I was or as Carlos, was or as my friend Brent was, that takes a lot of work and it takes going through a lot of pain that most people don't want to do. Like, who the hell wants to look at themselves and say, wow, I was a scumbag. I was a coward. I was a vile human being. I never, you know, was a decent person. People don't want to do that. People want to rationalize, justify and say, no, I was really always good. It was somebody else. And that's just not on the table if you're going to improve. Do you end up finishing high school?

I actually got my GED right before I went to prison. So you left high school and then? I was, so in eighth grade I was thrown out of school. In ninth grade, I went to a school for trouble kids. I got thrown out of there. Then I was allowed to go to my public high school for a couple months. I got thrown out of there. They sent me then to Elmcrest School, which is a hospital here in the state.

I got thrown out of there. Then I went to Newington Children's Hospital School. I got thrown out of there. Then they let me back and fight. Finally, I quit when I was 19. You've been through a lot of schools. Yeah. A side question, how do you feel about these alternative schools when a kid gets kicked out of a public school?

Because I work with a lot of these kids for like a mentorship type program in the juvenile that are going through the juvenile system. And a lot of them are getting kicked out of their high school, but then they're put into these alternative schools where the alternative school doesn't necessarily hold you accountable if you show up or not. and they don't really necessarily care about the kid. My mother said to me, because when I was a kid, and I said, three, no, this school's not helping me. And she said, Mike, get over the idea that this school is trying to help you. You're here because nobody else wants you. That's why you're here.

And I was like, what? But that's probably true. I think that most government period sucks. So it's not a surprise to me that they don't do schooling well and they don't do prisons well. when I went to those schools, I used to sleep in the back of the room. As long as I wasn't putting my hands on people, they really didn't care what I did. I got thrown out for fighting, for threatening teachers, disrupting things. But when I would just go to school, they had a beanbag in the back of the room.

I'd go, I'd lay down on that and go to sleep and have no trouble at all. I'd sleep in class. I used to get drunk on the bus on the way to school. The bus driver didn't care. Now, that's a long time ago. So I don't know what those schools are like today. But if my experience in school, my experience in prison, and my experience with government entities in general is any indication, I would say they're probably not. Hello, I'm Bruce Fabrizio, inventor of Simple Green.

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And she was 15. I was 18. I'm sorry. I was 18 and she was 15. So we start dating. About a year and a half later, she before that she has guy friends and I don't like that I'm very jealous very insecure wow I have to bounce all over the place I hate that but it's necessary to tell the story when I was a kid my

mother used to leave me home all the time my mother also overdosed a couple times so I had a dread inside me all my life that my mother would die was a great fear and I pretended to project that on to other people, friends, girlfriends, whatever. So I was very possessive and jealous when it came to my girlfriends. So when Lonnie, my girlfriend, would have guy friends, I had a problem with it. So I threatened them, they threatened me, and I got in a few altercations with them. Then she and I ultimately broke up. When we broke up, I had an altercation with her new boyfriend, and I ended up in prison for two and a half my prison county jail two and a half months i made bail a couple months later she called me we hung out for a little while and all those old jealous feelings came right back

so i arranged for my friends to break in her house and stab her new boyfriend and for that i got the i got a 27 year sentence that ran consecutive which means added on to the other six years that i was doing so for a total effective sentence of 33 years. Did the boyfriend end up dying? No. No, thank. I don't believe in God, so I won't say thank God, but thankfully, no, he did not. Why do you think that was your first response in your mind to do that?

Because my philosophy was I want what I want when I want it, and anybody that's in my way is just an obstacle to be removed. They're not a human being with feelings and goals and dreams. dreams and wishes, nothing. They're just there. Get rid of them. How did she react to your actions? I don't know immediately.

I do know that today we are friends, good friends. She's forgiven me. And that's a feels just so wonderful that I can talk to her, that I can help her. When she needs it, it's really great because she can. could hate me forever, but she doesn't. And that's just a beautiful experience for me. I appreciate it more than I could ever say. And what about him? What happened to him? He's doing well as far as I know. I wouldn't reach out to him because I'm not, I don't want to be intrusive. I don't want to go bother this guy. I don't, you know, maybe let sleeping dogs lie. I don't know how he would react. Maybe, you know,

would freak him out. Who knows? But if I ever ran into him, I certainly would apologize. I've apologized publicly. I'm a regular guest, for instance, on the Todd Feinberg show here in Connecticut. It's on WTIC. In the very first episode I was ever on, I offered a public apology to both of them and to anybody else I had ever heard.

When I went to court for my sentence reduction hearing, I apologize to them. Apologize now. I mean, I'm sorry. You know, I unfortunately can't take it back. All I can do is be sorry and try to live the rest of my life is the best human being

I can be. Do you think that the person who committed those crimes at that age is the same person as they get older, like internally or does that person mature? So like, however old you are now, do you think that you're the same person that you were at 21 years old? No. I mean, it's a pretty deep philosophical question, but I mean, I share a continuity of memories, of thoughts, of feelings, but in terms of values, which is what I think you're, you're driving at, no. The way that I view the world, the things that I like appreciate and what I want are vastly different than what it was at 21. But it's not just because 27 years have gone by. It's because I put in a hell of a lot of work to get it done. I mean, in prison, I read over 600

books. I got two college degrees and two certificate programs. I did everything I possibly could to learn about myself, to learn about the world and become a better person. Why do you think that a lot of people who are faced in the same situation and given that much time, don't do that. Well, criminals are, so Dr. Stanton Saminaow, who was one of my, I don't want to say mentor because I never talked to him until recently, one of my great intellectual influences. He wrote a book called Inside the Criminal Mind. And when I read that book in, I think 2004, might have been 2005, it was like somebody had a blueprint for the way that I thought. He identified what criminals are, what motivates us.

And it was just incredible to see it, especially because I was skeptical. When Brent bought the book, my friend Brent, we were both like, who's this guy going to tell us how we think? But he nailed it. He said criminals, you know, there's one chapter called people, people as pawns. And it's, you know, we view people as pawns to be manipulated. We lie as soon as we talk. We violate people's rights. as a matter of convention. And that's, you know, one of the things is it's immediate gratification. So if I'm a criminal and I go to prison and I can either play cards, play chess, dominoes, or I can, you know, watch television, play Game Boy, whatever,

or I can spend my time reading, analyzing myself, doing a lot of painful work. And what am I going to do? There's really no reward for being a good person and there's no real punishment for being the same dick I always was. It has to start internally given the way the prison system is and most prisoners, most criminals just don't want to do that. And people will say to me often, well, you did it. Well, the problem is this. Most criminals have an imbalance in IQ and there's performance IQ and there's verbal IQ, right? and most criminals have a performance IQ that's average or better.

Their verbal IQ is much lower. It's in the learning disability range. I happen to be the opposite. I have a verbal IQ upwards of 130, maybe more. My performance IQ is below 90. So I have an ability that most criminals don't have to conceptualize, to think in principle, to identify what's wrong with me. I also had my best friend as my cellmate for 11 years.

we were in the block together for three years before that, and we both decided at the same time to engulf on this self-improvement. And then to be cellmates for 11 years, we're reading all the same books, giving each other rock-hard feedback and criticism that most people don't want to hear. That's just not the recipe that's going to transform people. That's lightning in a bottle.

And had I not had him, I don't know if I would have ever been able to stick to it, to be able to withstand the criticism from the other inmates from the staff, being made fun of, oh, you're a goody-two shoes. Oh, what the hell? You don't want to just take this back or take this extra sponge or this extra tray. Oh, you're so stupid, you know. But I had somebody with me that would always tell me,

no, you're doing right. And I would tell him the same thing. And I think that is one of the upsides in the state prison system, because in the federal system, it's you're not going to have that same bunk mate for 11 years they move you around they do bunk switches um it's a whole totally different environment it's almost like the cards are kind of stacked against you in a way yeah and the prison system actually disincentivizes those type of friendships they don't in an abundance of ways but like they when brett and i wrote that book down the rabbit hole

they separated us because we criticized the prison system they didn't take a look at themselves and say, wow, these two guys, you know, they have neither one of them. They're ticket free for well over a decade. They are model inmates. They don't say that. No, they say, oh, we got to get these guys apart. Yeah, when I got out of prison and I did a newspaper article and I said that guys were leaving the prison and escaping to bring back McDonald's, the Bureau of Prisons didn't like that. And they gave me like an incident report over that and were threatening to take me back to president all for saying something that was truthful about the system. Yeah, they entrenched interests, wherever they may be, cling to their power, cling to

their privileges with everything they have. I mean, staff members literally tried to get me hurt by other inmates. And I knew that was likely to happen because I know the character of enough of the staff, not to know that would take place. So they're telling inmates, oh, you know, they met first, let me just back up. When the book was being, we had to send out the transcript and it had to keep coming in and out, in and out for editing purposes.

One time when it was coming in, it was intercepted by prison intelligence. They kept it and we're like, what the hell's going on? Then they called Brent down and the lieutenant told him, listen, we wanted to put you guys both in SEG and threaten you. But our legal department said we can't do that. He said, we have to let you write this.

But I'm telling you now, if any of this material gets leaked to the inmate population, we will put you both in sec. So we'd say we give our word, no problem. The staff, however, were not so concerned about what they share and don't share with the other inmates, often lying about what was in the book, telling inmates, oh, they said this about you, they said that about you. Now, one guy, one CEO tells a friend of mine, a six-foot-three, 300-pound guy in jail for double murder,

and he tells him, I'm surprised you let those two guys stay in the block after what they said. Now, this was a friend of mine who told me. So I was lucky enough that he didn't kill me. But you tell somebody like that that somebody's bad-mouthing him in a book. You're trying to get that person hurt. And, you know, that's the type of thing that they would do. So, like, how do I even put this? It's a very dangerous situation to speak out against the Department of Correction.

when you have staff members that are actually trying to get you beat up or they're trying to bring you back to prison because you've spoken out against them, it's a great disincentive. Most people just don't have the, I want to say courage to do it, but at the same time, I don't necessarily blame somebody for not doing it. I mean, who wants to subject themselves to? We were comfortable for 11 years, cellmates,

my cellmate was moved, and now our lives suck. staff's trying to get us hurt and for what it's not like we changed the prison system you know what I mean so the night of the stabbing how did you end up getting caught well the kid that got stabbed

told the police it was me that did it he saw my face now obviously he didn't I wasn't there so the police came and they arrested us and there's you know I'm 21 one of the guys with me was 21 and the other was 17

and the cops put a tape recorder in the backseat of the car with them. I was in a separate car and they were talking about it. And so the cops played that to me. Look, we know what happened. It's on tape. I don't know if they're allowed to use that in court or not. I've heard that they can't. But all I knew was this sounds like we're screwed.

And once I heard that, I confessed. You confess the whole thing without an attorney. Yeah, I just thought it was, I mean, I was like I was 21. I was detoxing from heroin, or from methadone, rather. I was intoxicated. And I, you know, for all I knew, the guy died and I was going to prison for life. It just seemed the smart thing to do was to confess. Obviously, it was not.

But that's how it seemed to me at the time. And there was no way to get that confession overturned with an attorney or anything like that. No, it was on my own, you know, my own choice. Do you wish you had an attorney present during that looking back? It doesn't matter. What would happen? Even if I had gotten away with that, I would have ended up in jail for something else, probably something worse. So, no, I'm fine with the way that it played out.

I ultimately deserved to be punished. I did a horrible thing. I was living my life in a horrible way. So, no, no regrets. What were the final charges you were hit with and sentenced to? For that particular crime? Yeah. I got convicted of conspiracy and accessory to burglary in the first degree, conspiracy to assault three, and hindering prosecution.

And what did the other guys get? And did they get prison? I don't know. No, only one of them got prison time. There were four of us. There was three of us that got caught initially. And then there was another guy who got caught subsequently. But we, I don't know what exactly they were charged with, but only one of them did prison time. I think he did eight and a half years. His sentence was 20 suspended after 10, but I don't know how much he actually did. Were your parents supportive during the legal proceedings or were they kind of not there? They were in court, if that's what you mean. They were heroin addicts. So, you know, they're running around crazy, but they were, they accepted my calls and they were in the courtroom. They made sure I had money on my books for commissary, if that's what you mean by supportive. And was your grandma still around during this time? Yes, until 19. She died in January 99, I want to say.

What was her reaction to this whole situation? I don't even really know. I mean, my grandmother, she was an alcoholic. She was used to it, that type of stuff. My father was always getting arrested for violence. It was certainly no surprise. Basically, what she did was rationalized in going to denial, no, not my grandson. The same way she did with my father.

Oh, no, he wouldn't do that kind of thing. When you were sitting in that jail cell when you first got arrested, Did you ever think it would lead to the sentence you would end up getting? Initially, no. No, I thought maybe three years. I mean, I was so in denial. The human mind has an amazing capacity to evade the realities that it faces when those realities are going to be difficult. And even after the sentence, I thought, oh, I'll get an appeal.

I'll get this. I'll get that. You know, there's no way I'm doing this amount of time. Do you think it was a just sentence? I hate that question. And I'll tell why I hate the question because I don't know how to answer it. Comparatively, no. If you look at other people convicted for the same crime or worse,

they simply don't get that amount of time. And that's all I have to go by it. There's not like there's a, you know, a sentence in the atmosphere that you can just grab and say, okay, here's the just sentence. All I have is the standards that we go by. And by the standards that we go by, no. Do I think that it's this horrible injustice where I'm the victim? No, of course not.

I put myself in that position. I created a horrible act. And when you do that, you are at the mercy of other people. I didn't have to do that. I didn't need to be in that situation. And I put myself there. But it could also be interpreted a different way. When we talk about like a just sentence, it might not be just from a legal perspective,

but maybe it was exactly what you need to get to everything you have. have now. Like a lot of people will compare my case to other white collar fraud financial cases. And my case was, my sentence was significantly higher compared to the dollar amount. But I think that I needed every single day in prison. And it was just in that sense to get to where I am now. A strong argument can be made for that. I don't know because I don't know how would have responded if I got a 20-year sentence as opposed to a 33-year sentence. I only know how I responded to the 33-year sentence. It's a fair point, and it's one of the reasons that I don't sit around begrudging the sentencing judge. Have you ever talked to the sentencing judge afterwards?

No, he actually, it's in one of the ironies of fate, I got a sentence modification. I actually got two. But the first one that I got was actually, they took two years off my sentence. It was the day of his funeral. And that was just random? Pure coincidence. Wow. And then what was the next sentence modification?

The next sentence modification, I got three years taken off. So your total sentence? I got five years taken off. And with the new good time law in Connecticut, I ended up serving 25 years in a couple months. On a 33. Well, it ultimately was on a 28 because the original 33 was modified to 28. So that seems like a lot for a state sentence? Because what about parole or?

I have none of that. No, no parole. Is that because of the old laws you were sentenced under? No, had I had the whole thing? Because by the time I went for the second modification, I already had 25 years in. So when they modified my sentence to 28 years, I had like three months left. And then the parole board refused to see me.

They just said it's not worth, you know, putting you on parole and supervising you and all that for three months. Oh, so if they had modified, you say 10 years earlier, you could have gotten parole an hour else. Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, it's just when they did it, it was almost at the end anyway. So back then they had no parole or? No, there was parole. It's just not for your specific type of case.

When I got sentenced to 33 years, initially my parole would have been after 28. But then when I got the five years taken off and then they instituted the new good time law, there was just no need for parole. But I was eligible for parole. Interesting. There's no parole in the federal sentence or the federal guidelines. So I'm learning a lot about like the parole and then how it differs because that's a big misconception kind of in the world because people are used to the state versus the feds. and whatnot. Yeah, I don't know much about the federal system at all, but I have heard that there's no parole.

So when you got that sentence, where do they send you to? Initially to Walker Correctional Institution for what they call assessment. And then after assessment, you're there for like two months back then. I mean, that's a long time ago. I don't know what they do now. And then I went to McDougal Correctional Institution, which was one of the state's maximum security prisons. That's where I did the bulk of my time. How long did you stay at McDougal for?

I spent all in all, I think, 19 years at McDougal. Oh, wow. Yeah. And that's where you met your cellmate. That's where I met Carlos. That's where I met my cellmate. Yeah. When you first got to McDougal, was your mindset the same as it was on the streets?

Yes. Yeah, I had very interest and little interest in changing at that point. I mean, I, you know, dabbled in religion a little bit, but not really. I was soon smuggling drugs and drugs. the institution. And what were some of the types of people you were associating with? Gang members, initially. People that were gambling, people that were into drugs, that's what I did.

Why do you think you gravitated towards those people right off the bat? That's what I knew. That's what I liked. That's who I was. You know, why do football players associate with other football players? These were my people. That's where I felt most comfortable. Do you think a lot of people kind of, kind of,

of, you know, fall into the bad side of the system because they associate with people that are like-minded to them from the, you know, the streets or the free world. Well, where would they, who would they associate that weren't bad? I mean, we're talking about prison. So even the people that are good or supposedly good, usually it's an act. I mean, they could put a guy in front of me and tell me this guy's reformed. odds are I spend the half hour with him, I'd pick him apart and show how he's not reformed. In most cases, I used to actually, Brent and I designed the group called the Imprisons Program

where we would have a group of guys and, you know, it was a rehabilitation group. And there were guys that people thought were, you know, these guys are the bees' knees. They've got it together. And very quickly, we would dismantle that view. It wasn't even difficult. And there's so many areas where I could demonstrate that somebody was, using implicit criminal behaviors or criminal tendencies. A criminal tendency doesn't necessarily have to manifest in a robbery.

You could manifest in slamming dominoes and just showing complete disregard for the people around you and how they might be feeling or yelling and screaming outside someone's door or taking the free commissary item as it comes across the table and not just saying, you know, this isn't mine. I didn't pay for this. But couldn't people like when you became a mentor and changed your whole mindset, couldn't individuals have that same theory against? do you? They could. And in some cases, they'd be right. And you have to constantly indict your character. And when I was talking about Stanton Sam and I earlier, I distracted myself and I forgot to mention that they actually wrote a, he had earlier wrote a book with his mentor called the criminal personality. It's a three-volume set where they put forth 52 criminal thinking errors. Victim stance is one of them where criminals view themselves as victims. Need for

excitement is another one. Lack of empathy. Failure to keep an open channel, meaning that it's very secretive. Lying was another one. And yeah, you probably would still see some of those in my behavior today. I'm quick to catch them and move on. Most people aren't. If I were, for instance, to look at you when you went into prison and I have no idea what you've done since then. You, for all I know, have done all the work to become a good human being. But you enter in the prison system. My guess is you're obviously a very bright guy. So very quickly, people in the prison would probably look at you.

Oh, I can't even see why this guy would be in prison. You know, and then somebody else would say, oh, it's just some white collar stuff. I would bet dollars to peanuts that if I was to look into your past, I would be able to identify that at very young age you were exhibiting these types of behaviors. if not, you know, in an extrovert fashion, then there were implicit signals that these were there. I would bet that early on in prison I would be able to identify these behaviors and tendencies. And if you began to change them, I would be able to see, okay, he's starting to change him.

If the interview here was reversed and I was to ask you, okay, what is the process by which you went by in order to make yourself a better human being? The process, if you've done it, would be almost equivalent to the process. I went through, Carlos went through, and Brent went through. So do you think that's what's missing from a staff perspective in the prison system? Like that... That's part of it. Sure.

There's a complete lack of understanding of the type of human beings that they're dealing with. They actually did... One of the fundamental concepts in criminal rehabilitation is what they call criminogenic needs. They're characteristics that criminal has. like, for instance, anti-social behaviors, anti-social values, anti-social friends. And they interviewed 171 correctional practitioners. These aren't CEOs.

These are actual counselors. None of them could identify three criminogenic needs. That is an abomination that they couldn't do that. I testified before the state judiciary committee about commutations that they were giving. And I told them it's fundamentally an unfair process. You have no means by which to identify people that deserve these from people who don't. There's people that don't deserve them that are getting them and people who do deserve them that are languishing in prison.

And nobody understands what the criteria are. And the parole board were all sitting behind me. And I told them what I just told you about the 171 practitioners. And I said to them, and I will guarantee you not one of these people behind me can name three criminogenic needs either. None of them rose to say, oh, yes, I can. When does your mindset start to shift in prison? How far in? And what do you think was like the direct cause of that?

Say, so when I was on the street, when I was 18 years old, I got involved in the Amway business. I met a guy, long story, but I met this guy who was involved and he introduced me to their teaching system. As part of their teaching systems were an abundance of self-help books, think and grow rich, master key to riches, how to win friends and influence people, that sort of thing. So I started to read those for a little while on the street. I actually started to change a little bit.

But it wasn't enough. And I didn't change my environment. So I quickly fell back. But when I was incarcerated, I decided I wanted to change. This was in 99. And so I reached out to that guy. And I said, listen, can you send me these books? There's about 70 of them.

So I ordered them. I read virtually the whole list. And I started to change. Then I backslid. But I kept reading. I kept expanding my mind. I just was gambling and doing drugs at the same time. In 2004, I decided with Brent, we had a conversation.

If we ever want anything for our lives, we can't continue to do this. I read Dr. Sam and I was book inside the criminal mind, and I also became familiar with Ayn Rand's philosophy of objectivism. And reading Ayn Rand's books and about the heroes that she had, I realize these people I admire them, but they're not me. I'm not like that. I don't have character. I don't have integrity.

Dr. Salmonow says that in order for a criminal to change, he has to go from zero integrity to 100% integrity. You cannot allow a single crack in the wall of your integrity to do so as inviting disaster. And I said, that's what I want. That's the person I want to be. And Brent and I did it at the same time in 2004, and I never looked back.

I stopped doing heroin. I stopped gambling. I stopped smoking weed in prison and just devoted myself towards self-improvement. And what a nightmare it was. How difficult it is and how many things that you think you got it and then realize you don't. You think you're well on your way and then say, okay, wow, there's so many more things that I need to do. And you realize that life doesn't give a damn that you're changing. I realized somehow, you know, sometime in that frame that a big issue of mine, like I told you, was my mother and my insecurities and my band.

issues and I needed to fix that. My biggest fear in life was my mother dying. 2008, my mother committed suicide. While I was working on my abandonment issues, I suffered the ultimate abandonment. And I had a choice. How am I going to deal with this? Am I going to devolve back into what I was?

Am I going to grow? What lesson can I learn? And I realized that that moment, I can take a great lesson for this because I'm still standing. All my life, I thought my mother dies. I'm done. I'll never be able to handle it. But I did. I did handle it. And if I can handle my mother dying, my mother abandoning me, my mother throwing her life away and saying, you know what, I know this is going to crush my son who's in prison, but I'm going to do it anyway. If I can

handle that, I can handle anything. And so I took that and just used that as a stepping stone. But the ultimate point is that just because I decided I wanted to be better and I wanted to heal, didn't mean life was going to cooperate. Similarly, when I got out of prison, while I was in prison, I got back in touch with a girl I knew, and we quickly fell in love. And when I got out,

we had a relationship. I ultimately moved in with her. She had a four-year-old autistic son that I became very, very close with. And we were happy, and everything seemed like it's going in the right direction. You know, she was working.

I was taking care of her son and working on my podcast. That was a deal. Four months living together, she finds out she has lung cancer. two months later she died what am i going to do what am i you know do i go back do i start using drugs drinking uh being violent again do i see well life's unfair screw this well that would just disrespect her and disrespect her son that i love so much so no uh no i'm not going to do that it hurt like hell

it was the most i thought my mother dying was the most painful thing i could ever experience when melissa died i i sometimes couldn't get up i mean i just felt like this is I can't do it. And luckily I had subby. I had other friends that were there for me. And it's painful, but I'm continuing. I'm going. I'm going forward.

I'm growing and I'm still trying to build the podcast. I'm still trying to build a better life for myself. What is some advice that you would share to individuals who do encounter the same type, maybe not as severe situations you did when getting out of prison when you've after you've completed working on yourself and you're trying to transition and you're met with a huge speed bump like that. I would say that you can either go forward through the fire, get burned and come out on the other end better, or you can stay in that fire and let it consume you. If you go back, you're staying in that fire, you're done. It might feel good temporarily to evade to not put forth

that effort, but in the long run, you're just going to suffer. So your choices are go backwards and suffer, go forward, suffer, but become better or die. What are some of the physical and environmental challenges of wanting to make a change like you did in prison? I mean, you go from, say, gambling and bring in drugs into the prison one day, and the next day you're telling the same guys you were running with, hey, I'm working on me. I'm not doing this anymore. That could be hard for a lot of people. Well, the peer pressure is tough. It wouldn't be for me now.

It was then. But luckily, like I said, I had Brent. And it's also you're often, I'll give you an example that I love to give. And maybe people don't understand this. But to us, it was huge where good behavior is punished, bad behavior is rewarded. You get out of work. We're working in industries. You get back to the block and they say, okay, everybody coming back from work.

So there's two tiers, top and bottom. Say, I'm on the bottom tier. The top tier is out for rec. They make the announcement. Anybody on the bottom tier, lock up, put your name on the shower list. We'll let you out when we get to you. okay brett and i did what we're told to do we get our name on the shower list we lock up nobody else does that they just go they play cards they play chess they're not supposed to be out they get in line

for the shower nothing happens to them there's no consequence the only people that suffer the consequence is us who did what we're supposed to do we get our shower last everybody else showers before us that is every day that's the incentive structure punished for doing which right rewarded for doing what's wrong over and over again that is debilitating to struggle through that and keep trying to do right is one of the hardest things i've ever had to do it's just very very difficult you're being made fun of by staff by inmates for trying to do the right thing and then you're being punished for doing the right thing it's like what is the point like i could just be the same scumbag not put in any effort and get all these things that these guys are getting like why am i going

through this that's tough another thing about the environment is the noise level. Excessive noise is against the rules. Nobody cares. They're yelling, they're screaming, they're blasting their radios, they're slamming dominoes. Meanwhile, you're trying to read a philosophy text. You're trying to read posterior analytics by Aristotle, or you're trying to learn algebra, and you're introspecting.

You're trying to learn yourself, and you're constantly being interrupted by that domino slamming off the table or some idiot screaming about sports outside of your door. That's very, very difficult. What's a book you think every inmate should read in prison? Inside the Criminal Mind by Stanton Saminaw. And what's a book you think everyone that has someone, a loved one, a friend who's incarcerated, should read on the outside to better help understand? Inside the Criminal Mind by Dr. Stanton Samanow. The same book will help.

Absolutely. Absolutely. It will pull the mask off from any illusions that people have as to what they are or whom they're dealing, with whom they're dealing. after you started to make changes in the while you were incarcerated did you know have thoughts of like what your life would look like after prison and i know it was so early on in your sentence not initially no i mean i knew i wanted a lot out of life i wasn't sure what um i wanted to become a psychologist i got my associate's degree in psychology I got another one in paralegal studies. I also completed certificate programs in psychology and social work and drug and alcohol counseling, read hundreds of books on psychology.

That's what I wanted to do. After the book down the rabbit hole came out, I was asked to be a guest, a one-time thing, and I do an interview on the Todd Feinberg show. And the first episode I did afterwards, he said, how would you like to be a regular? And I immediately said, yes, before thinking. And then I got back to my cell, and I said, what the hell am I going to talk about? week. Like, this was specific. Come on, talk about the book. But every week, I got to come up with a topic. Like, how the hell am I going to do that? But I did it. And from being on the show, I realized I was

very good at it. And so I said, I want to be a talk show host. That's what I want to do. And so I got out and I found the producer and I started the podcast. I know how to talk. I know how to communicate. I know how to debate. I don't know how to market. So I'm still struggling with that. But there's no doubt that that's now what I want in life. And what I learned was you never know what things in life can change that would make you want to do something different and I'm always open to it even though I want to be a podcast host

that can open a door that I don't even know exist right now. I never knew I was going to be a guest on the Todd Feinberg show. I sure as hell didn't know he was going to invite me back and I definitely didn't know I would decide this is what I want to do.

Well, we're definitely going to help you at the marketing aspect. Well, that's great. Podcasting has opened so many doors. You know, you meet someone new every day. Yes. I mean, look, we met today, and hopefully that helps you with, you know, giving you some tips. And it just, you never know the connections that could be made.

And you don't know who you'll refer me to her all. I mean, I met Carlos. We wouldn't be sitting here without Carlos, you know. And he just met you on Instagram. My friend Subby had been trying to find you and couldn't. He tells me, but he, you know, he tells me about a lot of guys. You need to get this guy. And I tell him, listen, find him.

I'm busy enough. You know, I'm trying to, I'm reaching out to all kinds of people. And some of the amazing things that have happened for me is, One, Dr. Saminau actually wrote a review of our book down the rabbit hole and put it in psychology today. He sent an email to Subby that said, these guys understand what I've written. They explain what I've written better than I do.

That is such affirmation. Because when you go to college, you're getting grades back. When you're studying on your own, you have to just trust in your own mind that you're understanding. But to get that vindication from Dr. Samanow to say, yes, we understood his writing was wonderful. Also, I've met so many objectivists adherence to the philosophy of Iron Rand. People whose books I read while I was in prison, I've had the opportunity to now interview them.

Economists that I wanted to interview. I mean, not that I want to interview, but whose books I read I've been able to interview. I've been able to debate some of these people. What a fabulous experience. You know, one of my best friends is a former San Diego prosecutor who's also a well-known objectivist philosopher. And we met on Facebook. And he's now a regular guest on my show. And I can talk to...

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No. It wasn't at all. People say that. They say, wow, so long in prison, it must be so different. But I really know. Because when you're in prison, I had a television, I had a radio. I knew what iPhones were. I knew what Facebook was, Twitter was.

I didn't know how to use all these things. But I knew they existed. I knew people were taking pictures on their phones, facetiming each other. I knew that texting existed. So it took a little bit to learn the stuff, but it wasn't like a shock. Oh, my God, I can't believe the world is so different.

What was the hardest adjustment for you from prison to the free world? I don't like social expectations, right? So if you see me and don't say hello, I don't care. Whatever. You know what I mean? You'll say hi next time. I don't give a damn.

I don't care if you thank me. I don't care if you say goodbye. None of that stuff matters to me. It matters to other people, right? So I'll, I get lost in my head. I'll get on my phone on social media and I'm lost. That's where I'm gone. And I'm focused on me.

I'm focused on my future and what I'm trying to do. So I'll forget, you know, hi. And people are like, oh, you didn't do. say hello and I'm like you know Jesus Christ you know do I got to say hello to everybody I see you know what I mean but everybody's different in that regard and so I while I would like for people to understand me I suppose I can make the effort to understand them too and for you know why they're like that and that's one of the things with Melissa that she got me we would spend time together and the whole day and barely talk because she was working on her career she wanted to be a chef

So she was taking classes, and I'm working on my podcast stuff. I'm trying to find guests. I'm trying to, you know, and then you book a guest, and now this guest has a book that I have to read. Or I have to read articles on what the guests, what his theories are. I don't have time to just be chatting all the time. And Melissa got that. And she understood it, and it didn't bother her, and it was wonderful. And most people just aren't constructed that way.

They don't understand it. Do you think you didn't like those socializing? expectations because of prison? Because in prison, you're taught not to... No, because those kind of social expectations were there in prison just to a lesser degree where people expect you to do this or expect you to do that. And just I don't have interest in it. I'm interested in ideas. But the saying hello, the thank you, that's kind of like not really acceptable in prison. You don't want to look at anyone. No, they do that in prison. I don't know. People would get weird. You can't look at a certain way. That does happen. No, no, you're

right. But with people that you know, like I was in the... the same block for 2004 or 15 years. I know everybody. They want you to talk to them. They want you to make appearances. I'm not interested. I had a guy say to me one time, I realized at some point in prison that the bulk of my stress was caused by the people I associated with. And I said, I've got to stop associating with so many people. So I made it my policy. When one guy I know leaves the block and the guy comes in, I don't meet him. And then I had a guy who says to me, you know, when I moved to the block, you didn't even say hello to me. And I said, what am I the welcoming committee?

Like, what do you mean? I didn't say, well, who the hell are you? I got to go, I got to stand the door and shake everybody's hand. I don't care about you. I don't need to know you. You know, all I know about you is you're a convicted felon who serve in prison. If that's all I know, that's enough reason for me not to trust you. I may get to know you later.

I may see your behavior and change my view. But initially, that's all I know. I don't need to be friends with you. I don't need to talk to you. For what? Do you find it hard trying to put away the memories from prison, maybe some of the bad things you've seen? No, I don't try to put them away.

I don't play games with my consciousness like that. I accept everything. I accept everything about myself. I face everything. All my weaknesses, all my fears, everything. Because they don't go away just because you pretend they're not there. And if I suppress them and push them out of my mind, they're going to affect me in other ways.

I would rather just deal with them up front and be done with it. Or just have it there. How hard was it to develop a relationship with someone while you're in prison? Not hard at all. When I met somebody that shared my values and shared my goals and the same desire to be better, to be smarter, to learn, it wasn't difficult at all. Do you think it takes a certain type of person to be accepting of those types of circumstances? What type of circumstances? Being incarcerated.

Like somebody on the outside accepting me? Yeah. or is every human capable of that? I don't know. I've gone through, I've been accepted. Len Sousio was a state senator, a tough on crime state senator. Came a good friend of mine. Todd Feinberg is a conservative radio talk show host.

One of my closest friends in the world. Don Pesci, a conservative commentator, you know, the journalist. He and I became friends. He's published me. I've also had people that have said, you could never redeem yourself, no matter what you do, you're a scumbag. I've had people viciously go after me on social media,

and they're wrong. They don't even know what they're talking about. I've had people who claim they distrust the media go strictly by media accounts of me. And it just, you know, what can I do? Ultimately, the people that matter, accept me. The people that don't, what do I care? Don't accept me.

You don't have to. I'll make it without you. You will not deter me. You will not stop me. I've got a philosopher, a philosophy professor, a friend of mine. He and his girlfriend are both objectivists. You know, they adhere to the same philosophy. He and I, he's a regular guest on my show.

We get along very well. Meanwhile, his girlfriend goes after me on social media and tries to get, she doesn't think anybody should listen to me. Nobody should listen to this guy. He's horrible. He's a horrible human being. Okay. Well, you can keep doing that and I'm going to keep moving forward and I'm going to keep getting my ideas out there and I'm going to make it.

And you can be upset about it all you want. Unless you're going to kill me, you're not going to stop me. Did you know that that was going to be a thing getting out like the world of social media, the negativity? No. When I was on the Todd Feinberg show, a lot of people would call in and attack me. A lot of people would call in and defend me. So I knew that aspect of it. I didn't know how vile social media can be.

I initially had no desire to get on social media at all. I really don't like it. I'd rather not be there. But that's a way to promote yourself. I don't know how else to promote myself. And I've met some very smart people, some very good people on social media. I've also had some negative experiences. So it does work at the promotion, but it can also be draining.

Because I'm a person, when I debate, I'm logical to my core. It's a straight line. You know, if A, then B, if B then C, therefore if a then C you know I but people are so irrational they accept sources of information that just make no sense at all and that's frustrating there's like I'll often get told oh you don't want to engage an argument anybody who knows me knows I love logical disagreements what I can't stand what frustrates me it's a pet peeve is somebody who cannot stick to the rules of logic during an argument and that's what I find a lot of on social media how did that work being on a talk show from prison

I would call the station collect and they would accept and then I would be on. And they loved it because they would have the beeps, you know, during the talk, during the conversation. So they really enjoyed that. And a lot of those people really like me that listen to the show. A lot hate me. Since I've gotten out, I've gone places and people know who I am. I'm, wow.

You know, I didn't realize that that many people listen to the show. But it's ultimately that show is the most popular political talk. in the state. And from that, I was the spokesperson for a while of the Libertarian Party of Connecticut. I left over some disagreements. But hey, I was a spokesperson for the third largest political party in the state, fresh out of prison. Why do you think you stayed in Connecticut? Like, wouldn't you want a fresh start somewhere else in a new state maybe? No, I'm a creature of habit. Once I get used to something, I like it. And not only that, but my friend, Subby, what a wonderful guy. He gave me a place to stay. When my mother died

in 2008. He and I, we weren't in a lot of contact, but from 2008 to the time I was released, he was my savior, everything I needed. You need books here. You need money here. You need someone to talk to, you, call whenever you want. You want to publish that book. Good. I'll do the legwork. You're getting out of prison. Come stay with me. I got you your phone. I got you your computer. I got you your bedroom. If you didn't have that, that person like him, would it have been a lot more difficult? Oh, my God, yeah. I mean, I'm not going to say I couldn't have done it,

but it just would have been vastly different. I would have had to stay probably in a shelter. The obstacles would have been far greater. My path would have been much different. I think I could have still made it. I'm not going to say, oh, I would have been a failure and ended up back in prison. My mindset probably wouldn't have allowed that.

But having him, oh, my God, it jump started me, and he has me so far ahead of where I would have been otherwise. Do you feel like having that person in anyone's life after prison prevents going back into prison? No. And because had my mindset not been different, then I would have gotten out of prison taking advantage of him, probably stole from him and then ended up back in prison. And given the way my mindset is, I can't imagine going back to prison no matter what circumstances you put in front of me. How did the prison system prepare you? Didn't.

Nothing. No. No. No. No, they offer things, but I didn't want it. I don't want anything from them. The rehabilitation programs they have in prison suck. They fail.

Inmates don't take them seriously. They're not based on sound philosophy, and the bulk of the people who run them couldn't care less. You have some volunteers who are very passionate but misguided, and they simply will not take criticism. The system will not take criticism. There's an abundance of literature on what works in prison. prison. They don't seem to care because of the entrenched interest. Ultimately, you have a

correctional officer's union that's going to protect them no matter what. And, you know, so you get par for the course. Everything stays the same. Carlos benefited when he got out. He went to a halfway house. You know, he can tell you how he thinks that halfway house was run. I wasn't there, but I take his word for it, that it wasn't run very well. So, no. No. I don't trust them for their resources, nor do I want them. I think halfway houses are just a business in a way to make money off of individuals because they're not ran by the state. They're private organizations.

I believe they're funded by the state maybe. I don't know. I'll ultimately know how they're funded. So let me not speak out of turn. But they're businesses. And I think that a business, it depends on what a business is run for. Like we have private prisons in America. The way that those prisons are funded are based on the,

amount of inmates they house. Well, what's the incentive then? Right. If they ran like a real business and you put forward their goals of rehabilitation, deterrence, punishment, and incapacitation, you say you're going to be rewarded based on these. That would be vastly different. But they're rewarded simply for the amount of inmates they house. That's not how businesses in general are run. Businesses are run to make a profit. And when you, and then, you know, you're going to do what you need to do to make a profit and you're going to fire people who aren't helping you make a profit. Yeah. I mean, Carlos was sharing with me a story about how when he wanted to start his own business, they wouldn't allow him to do that in the halfway house and they almost sent him back over that.

Yeah. And there was one good person, one decent human being that helped him navigate that and got him out of there before something like that would happen. Right. So there you go. Your incentive is to not own your own business. I mean, how stupid is that? Yeah. I mean, I would, I'd tell people if I ever, God forbid, I had to go back. I wouldn't go to a halfway house again because it was nothing but issues. Oh, you actually went to a halfway house. I was at one in Waterbury because a lot of the state ones in Connecticut will house federal and state. And it's so backwards.

If you're a state inmate there, you can have a smartphone, but the federal inmates can only have a flip phone. I don't know if it's changed to this day, but this was a few years ago. Everything. The food's terrible. You have people in case manager therapist positions who are fresh out of college who don't want to be there. they're forced to go there to get the real career they want as a stepping stone. Oh, no. We got watered down.

Watered down. Sorry. So those types of, it's just not a good environment at all, you know, they don't want to help you succeed. No, I wouldn't think they would care one way or the other. They're getting their funding. That's what it's about. And, you know, the places are inundated with drugs from what I understand. You guys are going out, getting high, coming back.

It's not a good environment. How do you want to use the knowledge? you've obtained in the life you're creating for yourself to help others and change the system? Well, right now I'm focused on the podcast. And my podcast is devoted to more than just criminal justice. Maybe I should just focus on one issue. I like to focus on ideas. I think ideas drive civilization. So that's what I focus on. Now, if an opportunity opened up where somebody said, listen, we want you specifically to work on reforming the prison system. Okay.

I wouldn't be opposed to it. I'd give it some serious thought and we'd probably end up doing it. But to focus all my efforts on such a task that is just difficult and likely to fail, it just doesn't seem smart. I mean, I've co-authored the book with Brent. I've spoken about the prison system. I'll continue to do that. But it's to devote the bulk of my energy towards it. I don't think would be a wise choice for me.

And why do you think that is? Because it's intractable. I mean, you have a union that would have to go if you ever have any chance of reform in the prison system. The union's not likely to go anywhere. I'm an ex-convict. So once you start speaking up, people say, oh, well, of course he's going to speak against the prison system. It's a very difficult thing to change. I would love to see a change.

And I would, if I saw a clear path, I would definitely. do it. If I had an opportunity to help kids or even inmates through, you know, through talking to them or going into prisons and speaking with them, I would, depending on what the, you know, criteria set forth were. I'm not going to go in and push their normal garbage that they push on inmates. I know what works. I've studied the topic in depth. I've interviewed professionals in the area. So I would do that. But I'm not searching that out right now. I mean, my time is limited. I have to earn an income and then I have to promote the podcast. I have to do the interviews.

I have to find the guests. I have to read the books. It's just, it's a lot and I have to choose how to spend my time. What do you mean by promoting garbage? What were some of the people they would bring in to kind of, you know? Well, let me piss off everybody. So they have AA. A.A. is a beloved program.

It doesn't work for criminals. It simply doesn't. The evidence demonstrates it doesn't work. They tell inmates you have a disease that's not your fault. That's why you're an addict. The inmate looks at that, oh, okay, it's not my fault that I am the way I am. I'm a victim. Once again, inmates thrive on looking at themselves as victims.

So there's one. Then you have the alternative to violence project. That's a staple in the prison system. They teach inmates that we live in a corrupt system. We live in a racist society where we exploit capitalism around the world and it's horrible. You're telling inmates this who already view themselves as victims. And you're just reinforcing that victim. ideology that they have.

They also have exercise where they say there's no right or wrong. Well, if there's no right or wrong, then what the hell am I doing here? Let me just go live my life. Who are you to tell me I'm wrong? There's no such thing. So what difference does it make if I rob people

or shoot people? It doesn't. And I mean, you just, you know, what's the word I'm looking for here? iterate that across every program in the system or the vast bulk of them anyway. And you have a disaster. You have things that simply do

not work. A lot of it is what they'd call if you ever Google correctional quackery. You'll see that that's what the type of stuff that comes up, the very stuff that's in prisons. What I think, and this is just my opinion, that it needs is, you know, starting with the juvenile centers, because a lot of the people I've encountered have gotten into trouble at a young age, you go in there and you have people with lived experience, like the use of the world, and you're telling them what you learned, what you did, what you lost, and what you've gained after prison. And you're putting that knowledge onto them, and that makes a lasting impact. You might not be able to save the ones that are currently incarcerated, but you can change a whole,

you know, demographic of people before they even get to that next level of incarceration. I think it's a wise choice to start with juveniles. I'll actually send you a link later on to an article I wrote about juvenile crime that went, you know, went around the state to a lot of legislators and judges and prosecutors and whatnot. I don't agree with you that you need or you'd want former criminals to do it. I would agree if a former criminal was knowledgeable about what works and what doesn't with prisoners and even criminal children. The problem is in a lot of cases, in my experience, you're going to get criminals or former criminals who are going to be teaching these kids the wrong things.

You do not want that. You do not want people coming. in to reinforce a victim ideology. You don't want guys coming in telling them they're really good people who just made a mistake. You don't want guys telling them that society is corrupt. You just don't need that. You need to send the message that these kids are responsible for themselves. They need to think rationally and not with their emotions. They need to stop seeking immediate gratification and they need to do what's right.

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Short summary, it's a lot more than that, but that's the basics that you need to teach them. Well, yeah, of course. I'm not saying like you take someone that has not. You found success after prison and brought them in. Yeah, but what I'm saying is even guys that have gotten out of prison, a lot of them who aren't going back, who seem to be successes, are going, that's the type of stuff that they teach. Or you need to find God. That's going to, that's going to cure you. No, it's not. No, I'm talking about a Carlos.

You put Carlos in front of a juvenile crowd. He could help. That's what I'm talking about. How rare is Carlos though? No, but there are those individuals. There's a you, there's a Carlos, there's people I've talked to. you know, that they can change the system. I think that there's not enough that could make a dent in the entire system.

That's ultimately what I mean. Yes, I think there's people that could help, sure. But if you're resting a change process or a change program on that model, I think it's destined to fail. There's just not enough. I think you could start somewhere, though. You know, you can't save everyone, but if you could save a few people, it's a step in the right direction. Sure. I'm not opposed to if you know,

If you, what this person is going to say and it's an ex-felon or ex-con, great. I'm not opposed to it at all. I'm just saying as a model, as long-term, what's going to do it, that's not going to cut it. And you have to be damn careful when you're allowing ex-convics and to talk to kids or to talk to prisoners. How does it make you feel when you kind of look at your life to know you've lost like a big chunk of prison and you compare that to like what's ahead of you in life? Don't care. I'm not going to spend my time. time regretting the time I spent in prison or being angry about it. I'm 48 years old. I maybe have

30, 40 years left on this planet. And I'm going to live my life the best that I can and have the best life I possibly can. I'm not going to worry about the time I lost. What are some goals you want to accomplish in the next few years? Well, I want to get my podcast up to the point where I'm making a sufficient income. And what I mean by sufficient is I would like to make six figures off the podcast. That's one goal. And through that, I would like to make a difference in the realm of of ideas in the realm of politics, in the realm of prison reform. Those are definitely things I want to do. I want to travel for sure. I've been able now, I've gone to Manhattan, and I've gone to New York City several times. I've been to Manhattan. I've been to Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx. It's great.

I recently went to Gettysburg. I got my Gettysburg sweatshirt on. And that was a phenomenal experience. I went to the Gettysburg Museum. And I also went to the graveyard where Lincoln gave the Gettysburg address. I saw the spot and that was just a magical experience for me. Awesome. What is one takeaway you want? If someone could take away anything from your story, what would that be? Personal responsibility is an absolute necessity if you're ever going to make it in any endeavor in this life. Stop blaming people. Stop blaming circumstances. Just get off your ass and do whatever it is you need to do to get what you want. Michael, thank you so much for coming on the show today. We're going to have the links to your book and your podcast in the description.

Thank you so much. It's been a great discussion. It's been a lot of fun. Yeah, I'm glad. Hopefully it was something different for you. And you're sitting in the interview chair rather than being the one doing the interviewing. It's a nice change sometimes. Yeah, it's a nice comfy chair. It's a lot more comfortable than the chair. Subby gave me at home. These are just Facebook Marketplace. I always said when I wanted to get this off the ground, I wanted just two comfortable chairs. I got these for like 40 bucks each. Oh, my Lord. Yeah. Facebook Marketplace is a gold mine for anything need. I guess so. These are great chairs. Yeah, don't get any ideas of taking these out. Hey, I don't steal anymore, man. Awesome. Well, thank you again, Michael. Thank you.