Locked In with Ian Bick - The Deadly Consequences of Drunk Driving: How I Was Sent to Prison for Vehicular Homicide | Matthew Murray

Episode Date: December 4, 2024

Matthew Murray shares his story about how one night of drunk driving led to a tragic accident and a charge of vehicular homicide. He talks about the events that unfolded, the time he spent in prison, and how the experience changed his life. Matthew reflects on the impact of his actions on the victims' families and the lessons he learned along the way. This episode highlights the serious consequences of impaired driving and the importance of making responsible choices. #DrunkDrivingAwareness #VehicularHomicide #PrisonStories #SoberingTruth #TrueCrimePodcast #RoadSafety #LifeAfterPrison #choicesandconsequences Thank you to AURA FRAMES for sponsoring today’s episode: Exclusive $35-off Carver Mat at https://auraframes.com/. Use code LOCKEDIN at checkout to save! Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Presented by Tyson 2.0 & Wooooo Energy: https://tyson20.com/ https://woooooenergy.com/ Buy Merch: https://www.ianbick.com/shop Use code lockedin at checkout to get 20% off your order Timestamps: 00:00:00 Murray Tree Business 00:07:32 Humanizing Correctional Facilities Management 00:15:27 Early Perceptions of the Criminal Justice System 00:22:29 Parallels Between Jail and Life at Sea 00:31:39 Life-Changing Vehicular Accident 00:38:41 Embracing Responsibility and Accountability 00:47:23 A Tragic Lesson on Responsibility and Consequences 00:56:06 Understanding Sentencing Complexities 01:03:40 Navigating Adversity: Personal Growth in Challenging Situations 01:12:08 Silver Linings After Adversity 01:19:48 Transparency and Accountability in Institutions 01:28:17 Rehabilitation 01:36:45 Life After Conviction: Finding an Apartment 01:43:51 Teaching Kids the Consequences of Decisions 01:52:31 Working in the Plymouth County Jail Property Department 01:58:31 Life Inside: Experiences of an Infamous Gangster Inmate 02:05:32 Gratitude for Community Support Powered by: Just Media House : https://www.justmediahouse.com/ Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I love them because of the accent, that Boston accent. I think it just makes the storytelling even better, you know, more real and authentic for whatever reason. But welcome and thank you so much for coming. Thank you. My pleasure also. And it's an honor to be here. And I wanted to plug your business in the beginning of this episode. And it's perfect right around the holidays,

a winter season for what you do. So, you know, you have the floor if you want to explain to the audience. Absolutely. Yeah, Murray Tree. It's out of South Shore, Massachusetts. We've been around for a long time, almost four decades. It's been a multi-generational family business. And we're a smaller company, but we kind of custom tailor to our customers.

and we have a good, we have a good reputation. And we stand behind our work. We do a good job and we like what we do. That's awesome. And did you grow up there? I did. Yeah, I was born in the same town. I grew up my whole life in Waymouth, Mass.

I was born at South Shore Hospital back in 1985 and lived in the town right up until I was about 25. and I still live in a town very close by. And Weymouth was a blue collar town, and it was a good town to grow up in, and we knew a lot of people in the town and played sports with a lot of kids in the town, and everybody kind of jelled, and, you know,

it was a good town to grow up in. Who did you grow up with? So I had a lot of friends. You know, I had my family, consisted of my brother and I, and he's three years, about three years older than me. And, but we both played the same sports, and there was a lot of families in Wymouth where my brother would play sports with, you know, would play sports with brothers and sisters, you know, or ages. And so we knew everybody. And we were kind of known as the tree guys. And my

father was the tree guy. And if you needed a tree taken down in WAMath or anything pruned or trimmed, we would get called. And so that's just always how it's been. It kind of ran in my blood a little bit. Right from the time I was born, I was on tree jobs. Our backyard was full of wood. You know, it was kind of our playground. So, you know, when I was a kid, I used to love seeing those tree guys around our community where we grew up and I would get Lincoln logs like with the stem and everything and then I had Playmobile and they had like guys with chainsaw so I'd pretend like I was a tree cutter like building these intricate sets like kind of like Legos and in my playroom with my brother. And that's what I always I was into that and then I wanted to become a FBI agent after the fire

department and this and that. Right. Brought back a lot of childhood memories right there. Yeah. Were you and your brother close growing up? We were, yeah. We, and we still are. We've always, you know, had a good relationship. And, you know, we hung around, like our whole lives, you know, and we just played sports with each other and we've worked with each other. And we've both, you know, gone on to marry and have children. And, yeah, we have a good relationship. He's a fireman. And we still work together. and see each other and have a good relationship. What were some values your parents taught you as a kid growing up? So both of my parents, they were extremely hard workers. You know, my mom and my dad.

My mom owned a gymnastics school when she was 18 years old. She was a great gymnast herself, and she went on to own a gym school. And she had a partner in the business. They're still best friends to this day. and she always worked a couple jobs too. She would waitress. She would work for my dad's business. She went on to become a personal trainer and a yoga instructor.

And she just always had a lot of things going on. You know, she's a go-getter and a very hard worker. And she was a great mother too. She did, you know, our whole family's laundry. She did my brother and I's financial aid forms. And we probably wouldn't have gone to car. if it wasn't for her and, um, and, you know, my life could have taken a serious turn in a different direction if it hadn't been for her. Um, my dad was, uh, a great guy too. And, um, he was more risque,

I would say. And he came from a different background. My mom and my dad were like polar opposites, you know, and, um, not name. any sort of a bad way, but just more of like a, you know, you've got to take some risk to reap any reward. And everything we did was, you know, there's always a lot of risk, whether it be, you know, physical, you know, dangerous job or you could, you know, damage property. And we just, you know, he did that. That was his business.

And we just learned it. And, you know, we took on that kind of ability to assume risk and, and, and, and, and, manage it and be okay with it. And I think out of my mom and my dad, my brother and I inherently, you know, received qualities of like leaders and people that weren't afraid to be leaders or to make a decision when needed to. And that quality has always kind of been a good quality,

I would consider it. and it's been valuable. But it also, too, when you're not afraid to be out front, you're not, you kind of take some heat and whatnot. So it comes with, you know, positives and negatives. But my father, he was a tree guy, you know, for many years. And I want to say in his mid-30s, he took a job at the Norfolk County Sheriff's Department. And he was a correctional officer.

Wow. Yeah. And so that, that's kind of interesting, you know, knowing that. But I was young at that time, you know, I was like, forget exactly. I want to say I was like, I was probably around 10, 10 years old. So I grew up my whole, like, you know, from 10 on hearing what the insides of a jail facility is like, the stories of his and. counters of, you know, with inmates and, and it was very unorthodox. My father was a very unorthodox

corrections officer. And he, um, he had success in the business. Like he was good at that job. And he did it for many years. And, uh, he hired like a huge percentage of inmates to work for his business when they'd be released and that went on to create some controversy between him and the administration of the jail why did your dad get into corrections did he ever tell you no no and um you know just just delivering it to you straight my my sense of or my answer to that would be um it was was a job that he was well suited for. And he had that ability to be kind to people that were in tough situations. You know, they weren't there. He understood that his job was not to judge or punish that person. It's already happened. They already saw a judge. The judge

sentenced him to this facility. And my father's job was just to run the facility. And he did that with like a respect for the inmates. And the inmates respected him. And it worked smoothly. And he developed almost like he was their friend. And his units, like he just didn't do, he almost rebelled slightly against like the, you know,

norms and and, and, and, and, routines that corrections offices adhered to for many reasons. And he still had success, meaning like the units would run safely and smoothly. And he didn't write reports. He didn't do shell shakedowns. He would take the information like an ADS. relayed to him at roll call that he wanted to go in. The ADS wanted him to go into the unit,

go into each cell and extract peanut butter jars. And he would look at the ADS and say, I'm not doing that. Not going in there and ripping their cells apart to take peanut butter jars. Not going to do it. And, you know, that would create issues. And another incident he had,

or not an incident actually, situation that he explained to me. And knowing it, I think it's kind of cool of him that he did this because he cared about what the quality of life that the people that were living in there and how he could impact it. And I saw firsthand a lot of corrections officers that may have taken pleasure and going in to do that kind of work. And that's, you know, they're coming into a,

space that's like we we have so few things that are ours that are even important to us and like when you start to disrespect them or search through them and just you lose that it's the only thing you have left it becomes pretty personal and so my father understood all that stuff and he understood kind of the quality of life

that you're living in that environment and they would tell him for instance we want you to go in and get radios. In one part of the jail, they weren't allowed to have radios and the pre-release they were. So the radios would come over into the other pot and they would go in and shake down and take the radio. So my father would go into the unit and call everybody out.

And I guess he was kind of known to do that. Like bring everybody out and talk to them collaboratively. And he would say, listen, the administration wants me to come in and shake this whole place up. and find radios, okay? So why don't you guys as a whole, get me three or four radios, take all the pots off them that you want,

keep anything that's good, give me a bunch of something that I can go out and show that I went through and got some radios out of here and everybody's happy, you know? And that's how he conducted himself. And right down to, we all know, in jails and prisons, that there's fights. And, you know, my father would,

encounter that and deal with it by having the inmates shake hands. And it would be over. And there would be no reports written. But the problem was, you know what I mean? The cameras come on to the scene and this and that. Now you've got things on camera. They check, they know there was an incident. There's no report that matches the incident.

So it was getting tough for him to survive in that job that way. You know, and he just kind of refused to evolve into like, you know, He had so many instances that I could describe where you're getting, he'd have an altercation with the property officer because an inmate came into his unit that didn't get what he was supposed to get. And my dad would go down to get him the personal stuff on his own time, on break time. And the officer wouldn't want to relinquish the property, you know. And my father would ask him if he would plan on taking it home and selling it at a yard sale or something.

You know, like it's for the inmates and I'm getting it for an inmate. and that was happening just all the time and he was he had more issues with the administrators than he did with the general population you know hey guys it's ian and i hope you all had a great thanksgiving the holidays are all about traditions and for me they've taken on a new meaning

ever since coming home from prison i've valued those moments more than ever like putting up the christmas tree decorating and just spending time with the people who matter most these are memories of I want to hold on to forever. And this year, I'm making sure they last by sharing them through an Aura Digital Picture Frame, which I have right here. I ordered my Aura Digital Picture Frame, and I love it.

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make sure to order in time for the holidays, terms and conditions apply, whether it's reliving cherished traditions or starting new ones or frames lets you share your favorite holiday moments with the people who matter most. So what memory will you share first? And guys, I don't know about you, but my iPhone runs out of memory for photos and videos all the time. I don't have to worry about it with aura frames unlimited photo storage data. Grab yours today, hit that link in the description of this episode. Now let's get back into it. When your dad would share these stories with you at that young age,

what was like your interpretation of prison, the criminal justice system? What were your thoughts on that? Because, you know, growing up, we're watching the, when you come from like a good family like that, when you're not surrounded by people that have been affected by the criminal justice system directly in your immediate family,

it's kind of like a taboo topic. It's an odd ball out. So you watch it from movies and TV shows. you automatically associate it with prison equals bad equals bad people, drugs, murders, rapists. So what were your thoughts at that time period? So that's a good question. And to be honest with you, I had this vision. You know, I had this vision of what prison looked like or jails.

And it necessarily didn't match what I thought, you know, it was different. and, you know, we have these stereotypical visions of jails from whatever we see on television or, you know. So I had never seen the jail I ended up in on television. So I didn't know what to picture or what it was like, you know, I just heard these wild, bizarre, crazy stories. And I also had a little bit of a different, like, experience as a childhood interpreting the, stories because I actually got to see it like a little bit of it. I could, I was working for my father for the, for the business. So there were occasions where I would stop at the jail on the way home from a job that we finished, knowing that he was working that night. And I'd stop in there

and I'd walk right into the pre-release. And I would be sitting as close as I am to you, to inmates. And I'd be like, hey, dad, what's going on, you know, and just regular walking on. around like it was kind of like I was always I think myself I was introduced and and brought closer to that environment than most people you know so I had a more accurate understanding I didn't have that prejudicial bad person taboo experience I from a young age was associating with people that were incarcerated. I worked alongside them for my dad's business. And my dad and my mother both welcomed a lot of inmates into our home to eat Easter

dinner with us, you know. And it was like we didn't talk about them or look at them like they were bad. And I thought that was kind of cool. That definitely stuck with me my whole life, you know. And it's, it was huge. like seeing that my dad would bring cigarettes and jeans and work boots to a halfway house you know and drop them off for a guy pick him up every day and drop them off every day from work like you know three or four cities away and um he had a big heart for you know people in this

situation and uh it was a good i think um you know a good lesson to raise children that way and to show them that you can walk anywhere in life and be surrounded by anybody and find comfort, find friends, find business-related, like, it's everywhere. It's all around, and it's through every person. And I think my parents did a good job of kind of showing us that, you know, with real-life examples. For example, there were times where I would call the jail to speak to my father. And I would call directly to his unit and I would be on the phone with inmates talking to them, the guys that I had just been working with a month ago, you know, and that were back in.

And so I saw it in my whole life. It was kind of interesting, you know. But I can say kind of the most interesting thing, or the area in which I were, was the most wrong, I never thought I'd go there. So that was really kind of wild to me. Isn't it crazy to reflect back on it? Like to think as a kid, no one expects to go to prison, you know, at some point, I know, like I'll interview, like, say, a drug dealer who knows the only options are prison or death

at the end, but before that, there was a time period where in their mind they never expected to be where they were going to be. And I think that's just very powerful in itself. Huge. And it also kind of shows you how life in the universe, like maybe for some reason your dad took that job, and, you know, it just happened to be that you ended up following that path on the other end

and that helped your parents show compassion towards you in some, you know, universe. It's interesting to always hear the backstory, and that's what we were talking about prior to sitting down here. I think that's the incredible aspect of these stories. That's what's important. Sure, sure.

Yeah, it was, I think a lot of things have happened for specific reasons. And another issue or another point I'd like to kind of touch upon is I followed up my education after high school at a college and in Massachusetts. Massachusetts called Mass Maritime. And it's a maritime academy, and you go out on ships. And so I had a professor there my freshman year. And your freshman year, they make you take a variety of a couple different majors to kind of see what you like. And there's two majors that go out to see, engine and deck. So I had this professor, and he was, you know, you.

what you would call in that industry, like real salty, you know. He was kind of stern and miserable. He would say to us all the time, now, meanwhile, we're freshmen in college, you know, and you get your head shaved, you get long socks on. You're going to run everywhere on campus. It's like a paramilitary academy. I mean, it's not a fun college experience

like most people experience at college. So, anyhow, there's a... guy would say to us all the time, you're responsible for your own entertainment. And we'd all look at him like he had like nine heads, you know, like, what the hell is this guy talking about? And he'd say it all the time. And I'm like, yeah, whatever. It doesn't even make sense to me. It doesn't mean it, whatever. Well, when I went to jail, it all clicked. I was, to me, I knew I could get through my sentence or do my time

because I was on a ship. There was like so many parallels, you know, when you're on a ship, you're floating out in the ocean, you can't leave it, can't get off it, you're with maybe a crew or 20 guys that you don't know. You might not like them, you might like some of them, you might get on, you know,

it's very similar from being in jail. And when he said you're responsible for your own institution, You've got to get yourself through each day. And however you do that through reading or exercise or meditation or, you know, whatever it may be, it all clicked when I was in jail. And I often reflect back upon my education, which is supposed to be to propel you into a career. But mine propelled me into making sure I could be okay getting through my sentence. and they're equally valuable because if I couldn't get through my sentence,

I can't do the rest of my life. And I firmly, firmly believe, and got to see tangibly what a sentence can do to someone's rest of their life. And so I think I have kind of an interesting, unique lens or perspective into the whole kind of situation given the fact that like my dad worked there you know i heard the stories i worked with guys that were frequently incarcerated um you know and then it just to go on and be there and get that full experience of being in there

and and whatnot it's it's kind of a unique situation and interesting prior to your arrest that would send you to prison had you had any encounters with law enforcement and had your family, maybe your brother or had anyone been arrested? Sure, sure. We had had a couple of minor things, you know, my brother, myself, kind of standard typical teenage, you know, maybe minor in possession of alcohol or disorderly conduct or maybe a continue without finding, you know, like minor. things but like we weren't squeaky clean we weren't perfect little you know we we lived life and we were

um blue collar and we um you know we definitely experienced and but we weren't like so desensitized to crime and police and you know i had a a firm belief that police were there to protect you and that's who you called when you needed protection and and um my views and opinions on that today aren't all the same and, you know, for many reasons. And we can get into that further. But my experience with the law up until my accident that caught me incarcerated was, I didn't take it too seriously. I kind of had that ignorant or arrogant approach that, like,

I'm not a criminal. I'm not from a crime-ridden neighborhood. I'm of that socioeconomic, privileged white background that, you know, we know a couple people down the courthouse or we can have someone help, you know, maybe and they'll, you know, continue without finding or it'll be okay. It'll not go away, but not much to worry about. and that's kind of how I just looked at everything. But, you know, maybe I'll jump right into what got me incarcerated because it kind of explains a lot of my behaviors, you know, leading up to and post.

I, through high school, I was like, you're maybe on the younger or, you know, one of the first people to experience. experiment or start using alcohol regularly, you know, and I was definitely an alcoholic before I drank, you know, I remember those feelings of like you drink and you feel kind of good about it. And it's like you ever, you know, even if you maybe threw up or, you know, got into a little scuffle or something, you know, it was still a good experience. You liked it. I was ready to do it again and again and again.

And, you know, I had those isms and whatnot. and ultimately it led me to what happened. But before I get there, you know, I had success in life, like on many different platforms or to different capacities, you know, whether it be academically or athletically or even entrepreneurially, I can say I think I kind of parallel you a little bit. And I saw a lot of similarities when I was listening to what you, explained and how you kind of traversed your childhood and some of the things you did,

I was like, well, yeah, I was doing, like, very similar things. And from young ages, like selling snacks and drinks and stuff at the, my older brother's sporting events, you know, and even, like, five, six years old, going to BJ's buying snickers bars and Gatorades and whatnot. So I always had that drive of, like, to make a buck. And it was, I had success. on many different levels, especially athletically. You know, my brother and I both were good athletes.

We both had a lot of opportunity. We both played in elite levels and teams and whatnot. And my brother, his kind of predominant sport was hockey, and mine was lacrosse, although we both played both. So I stayed in public schools. My brother went to private school. and that was also kind of, that was kind of derived from the private school he went to being, you know, like the number one hockey school in the area.

And my public school was well known for lacrosse. So we just, I kind of, I didn't have any interest in leaving my public school. I was happy with it and played three sports through high school. was a captain of two of them. I was a junior captain. I was an All-American in lacrosse my senior year. So there was success in these levels. And all the meanwhile,

I was already drinking alcoholically. And I only mentioned this because my input into all these things wasn't at its full potential. It was definitely stymied due to my, young, you know, start to alcohol. It was detracting already from, you know, positive things, things that I should have been focusing on or putting more importance on. And so I can definitely say that was, you know, in effect. But I think my mental grit, like, trumped it for a long time.

or I was able to at least still garnish some success, but I was working super hard all the time because I had to make up for that. So I was putting myself at a disadvantage from the get-go, you know, and I look back on it a while and go, wow, man, that could have been so much easier, you know. But I give myself credit at the same time because I stuck it out, you know what I mean?

But if you look at me on paper, you look at things like, I'm not reflective of who I am, by my grades and stuff because I didn't even try. You know, I was drinking and partying instead of studying. And soon, you know, not that long into it, the loss, the signposts, all that stuff started coming, which just makes things hotter and hotter and hotter. And, you know, I failed to yield at every signpost.

And ultimately, what it transpired into was a vehicular homicide. and a girl whom I went to high school with, we were 25 at the time, and her life was cut short due to me being behind the wheel drunk. And it was a single vehicle accident. I rolled over on a road in Waymouth where I lived and where she lived and where we went to high school. And that was, you know, That was the incident that stopped everything in its tracks, you know, my life, her life, many family members' lives.

And that was a tough time. And still is to this day, you know. And, but there's been so many things that have happened on so much stuff. And sometimes you just, you. You sit back and, you know, I know that this, to me, was make or break. You know, I can either do it or I can't. And that it will tell me, you know, but I got to listen and I got to pay attention. And I think I've done that since.

And there's been a lot, it's been tough. It's been really hard. but it's, you know, it's life. And every decision will either bring you somewhere or will change the trajectory of where you're going or where you want to go. And, you know, I just, I'm fortunate, I'm grateful and I'm happy that I am here today

and for whatever purpose it may be and whatever it leads to. But I got to take this, situation in my life and I have to, like I said earlier, listen to it and let it lead and go where it should go. And, you know, that is why I'm here today in this exact location, not just in generality, but, you know, I feel and I listen to what is going on in me and there's a lot of energy and potential that sits. And I take my accident, my incarceration, the massive loss, the trauma, everything that

come out of it. And I look at it like a huge burning ball of energy. You can take whatever you want out of it. There's a lot in there. It's good, bad, everything. What's the fastest way through it? Right through it. Go over it around it.

It's all going to take more time. You might not get the energy because you didn't go through it. So, you know, a lot of this stuff is metaphorically speaking, but it's been tangible. And I think in life I didn't understand the importance or I didn't take things serious enough because I had never felt some sort of, like real tangible consequence.

And maybe I was, you know, just young and dumb. Maybe I was hadn't grown up. I don't know what it is, you know, but this situation made me stop for once. And that was the first time, you know. I enjoyed moving fast, doing a lot of things, being in a lot of places, you know, what I thought was enjoying, but it was, um, looking to start 2026 with an unforgettable getaway. Fiji Airways sale is on now.

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Happy celebrating. It was a rude awakening. What decision could have been changed that day? Was it, you know, the place where you were drinking? Was it your choice to get behind the wheel? What could have been, you know, changed to affect that outcome? So a million things, you know, even little, little, little things could have changed. change the outcome. But ultimately, I try not to even compile all the little things because that can

kind of drive one nuts. And I look at it more in a sense of like it was meant to be. it was no like no pretentious like elephant in the room no it was due to my alcoholism it was due to repeated bad decisions and it's it's tough to talk about and admit but I have to because it's reality and it's what got me there and if I if I act like it didn't happen then maybe it will repeat but I was known to be like the good drunk driver. In Weymouth where I grew up, and I talk about this with no, I'm not putting any emphasis of like it was cool

or it's a good thing to do, but in Waymuth where I grew up, if there was no house party or woods party on a Friday or Saturday night, it was very common for us to five or six people drive around in a car and drink. for four or five hours and that to me sounds totally just stupid and and assinine today but that's what we did and it was common for the cops to pull you

over and tell you to go home or pull your beer out or maybe put it in their own trunk or you know or we'd run from the cops if we were at a woods party and it was almost built into part of the enjoyment it was like again back to not really taking things serious it was like just part of the flow and that that was common every Friday, Saturday night, summers. So it kind of took on its own, you know, energy and before I know it, I was drinking alcoholically and that decision to get in a car and drink after being drunk, I look at it like this, like I

did it so many times and it was, I was reckless. I was, you know, I put other people's lives in danger. And that's not cool. That's not something to be like proud of or, you know, or something I would want

my daughter or my son to experience, someone else doing that to them. And so, there's a lot, you know, that comes out of it. There's a lot to be learned, a lot to be said. And the only thing I could control was my accountability or my responsibility. And the way I go forward, what's happened has happened. And I think that by trying to be a good human is the only way I can redeem or

you know, forgive myself and live a productive life and not go into a convenience store and not want anyone to know who I am or to see me or to want to curl up in a shell, you know, and hide from the world. But to be able to look people in the eye and hold your head high and stuff, you know,

there was a lot of lessons that came along with it. But on, you know, on the contrary, I have to always, and I do, I always maintain the losses suffered by the family of April, who that was her name, April. They're unequal in every comparison, you know. You could have sentenced to me, and I alluded to this in court. I said you could sentence me to 20 years and there's not one stitch of fabric in my DNA that could out of the words that that's not fair.

You know, she lost 75 years maybe, you know, the chance to get married, the chance for her dad to walk her down the aisle, her brothers to share nieces and nephews. It's so, it's so uneven, you know. and that to me is all that really matters is what they lost, you know, was due to my decision-making. And the only thing I could do worse now is not care or not feel that.

So it's kind of my duty to care to care and to, do anything I can from here forward to maybe help one person to change or to save one person's life or to, you know, be that voice in someone's head while they're at a party, maybe getting ready to go home. You know, that's all I can do. And I have to also talk not right now

about like going through the trial. And, you know, it's a process. And it was a good two-year process. And I was shaking up, flipped upside down, you know, didn't really know what was going on thoroughly. And her father was just like an amazing. amazing, amazing beacon of like compassion and empathy and love. And I can't say enough about him that he was unbelievable.

And, you know, her mom and her brothers were a little bit, you know, they didn't have that the exact outward projection. that the dad did and I totally understood it. I still to this day understand it and I and I respect it and if they were let's say even polarized on how they feel I would respect it and understand it and and it makes sense. to me, but their family has been amazing in how they were able to show compassion for me. And I mentioned the mother and the brothers not being as outwardly, but they were never, like,

how I could imagine people may be in that situation. And they just, they displayed a level of compassion, and empathy and understanding in a time where I don't think I might have been able to. So that was, you know, impactful for me and helpful for me to heal and move through. And there was a time when I was released from jail, I was sentenced to two and a half years in Plymouth County.

and I was sent it to Plymouth County because my father had worked at Norfolk County. And my accident actually took place in Wemouth, which is Norfolk County. But conflict of interest and that kind of stuff, they sent me to Plymouth, which what I found out was, you know, not a great alternative because of the structure and whatnot. It was kind of a bad hit, as they say, in that industry. No movement, terrible food, just, you know, differences in facilities that we learn about.

And again, back to the kind of, they change your quality of life when you're in there doing your time, what you can and can't do and what you have access to and whatnot and all that. So it was, there was a time, I think I was getting at was I was released and back to thinking about like what do you do? How do you take this and do anything good with it? And my wife had an opportunity because she also went through something similar to me.

And that was kind of our foundation. When we met each other, we had something very similar. You know, and that's her story. So I won't get too much into that. But we did have this similar experience. and she was speaking at the North Quincy High School and we were living in North Quincy at the time and again right before the prom season

which is a, you know, an impressionable time for that age of kids, you know, and at that time in their life, they're getting ready to kind of head off and start, you know, whatever they may be starting and that was kind of, you know, I remember that feeling so well, and, you know, I didn't have too much time after that until I really, you know,

threw a bomb into my own life and, and others. And so she had this opportunity to go speak to the seniors graduating, and I called April's dad the night before. And talk about like a last minute, you know, invite. I asked him if he wanted to go and speak to the kids with me. and he took the offer up and he brought his brother. And so we go the following day to the high school. And there was a group of like, I think it was a group of five.

It was my wife and her victim in her accident. He lost his leg. And he was there and her. And myself and Mr. Eval, and there was a woman. and there was a woman there that lost her son who he had froze to death after he left a party drinking and irrelevant to my story, but sad.

And it was a collective message to these impressionable kids of, you know, here's some real life examples of what can happen if you don't, you know, take it seriously and be responsible. And so it was, again, tough for me to do it and follow through with it and be there, but rewarding and feels great to do. And it was a good result, you know, it went really well.

And I got to say, again, back to her dad, you know, and just the level of man he is, he showed it every time he could. And his brother come up to me and said to me, without him being present, his brother, so April's uncle gave me a hug and said, hey, I just want to let you know. My brother, he said to me that if he could adopt you, he would. And like, again, you know, it's like, it's emotional

because it's like, how could this man be like that, you know? and uh but that in itself delivered a lesson to me that you can't get anywhere you can't get it in college you can't you know what I mean that's like it's tough but um you know when when I feel something that hot I know it's that good it's that powerful it's that strong it's worth that feeling and um he just did that over and over and and even even right up to on stage, I spoke before him. And he kind of just last minute off the cuff came up to me and said, hey, at the end of your story, don't tell them that I'm here.

And I'm like, all right. So I told my whole story and I didn't say anything. And he walked out and he hugged me on stage and started his story with, you know, I'm her dad. And again, it was just, you know, tough, but stuff that I'm glad that I did. And I'm glad that I didn't shell up, you know, and hide because there's no need to.

And it's hard to do what your heart tells you to do sometimes, but you've got to keep going. You've got to do it. And I think this accident in a selfish way, I have to be grateful for it, because it's going to push me in life to follow what I think I should follow and not what other people think I should follow. What were your thoughts and what was going through your mind

in the moments after the accident? Another good question. Geez, you know, I should be able to tell you so easily, but I almost have to speculate because I think that I honestly, I know this sounds funny. this answer, but I was like outside of my own self at that time. That's the only way I can describe it. I feel like I wasn't even me.

I remember where I was. I remember what I did. I remember everything I saw. It was a tough scene. I mean, I had just rolled over a truck. She was, April had suffered some, you know, serious injuries. And I just remember being the, and knowing how the weight of what was unfolding.

But I can honestly say, and I wouldn't want it to be confused with, like me trying to control a narrative or anything, this is just real raw, my feelings and what I remember. I remember, like I said, being almost outside of myself. And I remember just saying, holy shit. Like, what the F is going on? This is real.

And I just remembered, I remembered obviously, and I didn't, it was fast-paced because I got to say, I was like praying for a miracle. You know, I knew, I didn't for one second think run. I didn't for one second think, like, protect me. I knew I was stick a fork in me. I'm done. I knew I was going to jail. I knew I was responsible for this.

And the only thing at that moment that mattered to me was to get medical professionals here as fast as possible. So I did what I could do to try to help all while I called 911 like three times, I think. And that, you know, There was nothing good that had come out of this. Or there's no way I would ever want this to happen again. The feelings and the pain and the stuff that I know that my actions caused is like, I still, it's very hard to wrap your head around it and think about it.

But that is real. And that family really experienced that. And my family really experienced it. although two different experiences, there was so many people affected. And I just remember thinking in the seconds after, I got to get help. She needs help.

If there's anybody that can help, it's like 911. It's the ambulance. You know, we need to get to a hospital. So I called and what was a minute or two felt like an eternity. And it was just as such a surreal, feeling of just I couldn't believe it

I didn't know how I was going to be able to live on like knowing that I just got that was me. It's my fault and thinking about all the things that that triggered funeral services that whole family's life just like stopping in its tracks and it's hard

So hard. And it was, imagine all of that going on in once. And you're just in control of nothing at that time. Like, like, I felt every ounce of everything, like, and I accepted it, I think, like, without any time. Like, it just, I knew. And, you know, I knew I was now in the control of the police, the custody of the police. the custody of the police, I knew that there was just my whole life as I knew it was probably never going to be the same and a lot of people's lives were never going to be the same.

And from there, like I said, I was just, I was being told what to do, where to be, when to be for a long time, you know, and life was on like a proverbial pause. nothing could grow, nothing could prosper, nothing could be, no decisions could be made long term. You know, and that was my first introduction to real, like, legal jeopardy.

What did they end up charging you with and were you given bail? I was given bail. I was charged with vehicular homicide, O-U-I, And there was a couple of the charges that were listed on the citations and in the charging documents. However, that's a good point. And as I've been watching some of your previous episodes,

I kind of make little notes and I see commonalities between people like us that have gone through the justice. system and have been handed out justice. I didn't fully even understand my charges or what I just agreed to be sentenced to until I was into my incarceration and I was learning terminology from other inmates and it's clicking in my head weeks and months after. I'm like, oh, okay, that's what my lawyer meant when he said he was going to get the 10 day on and after removed. I had no clue what that meant.

When he explained that to me the day I was being sentenced, there was a 10 day on and after, I had no idea that that 10 day on and after would stipulate that I didn't receive parole, basically. It's a way of making a two and a half year sentence mandatory without it being in the sentencing guidelines as a mandatory sentence. They can put it on and after

and you don't get eligibility on parole until you do your whole first sentence. So that was a way in which they would have, my sentence if my lawyer didn't lawyer that out of there, I would have had to do my full two and a half sentence

before I would have been eligible for parole on my 10-day sentence. And I don't know if you're not, if it's different in feds Massachusetts, but you're eligible for parole at half your sentence. So that is a way that they can take any sentence and make it mandatory. Yeah, there's no parole on the feds anymore. Okay.

You're doing 85%. Yeah, and then give or take halfway house and stuff. Right. It's a very different system. Yeah. Yeah, and I've heard that, you know, obviously with my dad being in the corrections. and then also Plymouth, where I was held, in a different kind of informative segment,

they hold state, federal, county, and immigration inmates. I actually just interviewed someone that spent a little time at Plymouth. Yeah. What was your family's reaction to this event? How did they respond to you? And what were those initial conversations like throughout, you know, the proceedings? they um it was it was a it was a very measured response it was calm it was everybody seemed to understand that this wasn't a situation that we need to get like um you know jacked up about

or worked up like it it it was in motion and it was kind of like um for lack of a better phrase damage control like you know you know know, I knew that I was going to jail or prison. My family knew it. Everyone knew it. And it was understood kind of like, when this happens, someone has to. So again, I have a different kind of, you know, like you mentioned earlier, someone who's selling drugs.

It's kind of like, that's a real calculation that you either fear or don't fear or, you know, and do you make that decision you kind of understand, okay, I'm going to do that. This is going to happen. Mine was a little different. You know, I didn't know or plan or think this would ever happen,

you know, but it did. And my family accepted the fact, I think, that, you know, I was going to jail and, you know, with the right attorney and a pretty genuine defense. Like not a, I didn't do that. this. It wasn't my fault. You know what I mean? It was like, yep, this happened. I'm responsible for it. I take responsibility for it. I'm not. And whatever you dole out is what I need to do.

And my lawyer was awesome. He was a great, great lawyer. He was a professional boxer. And yeah, I actually ended up starting to box in his gym while I was awaiting truck. you know, through his recommendation, like a good way to just kind of keep your mind, shop and, you know, stay focused and be in the best pristine condition you can be in mentally and physically, you know, when you embark on this sentence. And at that time, I didn't know what it was going to be. So it was just interesting in all aspects. So much to digest in all aspects.

aspects and my lawyer was kind of like, you know, a very realist. And he was kind of preparing me like for three to five or something like that. So my family, my mom was obviously, you know, devastated. And my father, he knew I could, I could take it and do it and move through it. And, you know, and my brother, too, they were kind of like, hey, you know, you just, you got to do it. You got to do it. You got to do. We know what you can do. We know what you can do. We know what you can do. We know what you're capable of. And like I didn't look at, you know, like jail, like, oh, I was going to go in there and I'm going to fight right when I get in there and stuff.

Like I went in there with an attitude of like, listen, I'm clean and sober. I haven't drank in a long time. I'm facing this head on. And there was a boxer that I had done some training with. And he was an older guy and he'd hold the mitts for me and stuff. And he did some time. And a couple weeks before I was sent. He said something to me that stuck with me still to this day.

And I laugh almost and I have a smile when I say it. And it's just funny because he said, Hey, kid, when you get in there, hang with the winners. And I was like, going to jail. How many winners is they going to be there, you know? And when I did get there, it's a place full of people that I, you know, not that I knew everybody so well. But there was a lot of decent people.

and a lot of regular people. And, you know, a lot of people that also made bad decisions may be out of desperation. And it was just interesting when he said that, you really can. You can hang with the winners no matter where you are. And I understood that as I started to kind of live in that environment. And like, who do you associate with? Who do you, you know, interact with? And I tried to keep it to a minimum, you know, intentionally.

And I did that my whole time in there, and I think I did a pretty decent job of living in there in those environments and kind of avoiding many entanglements, you know, with gambling or drinking or drugging or going to the stores and running up debt. You know, just any way that you can get yourself into a hot, sticky situation, you know, I kind of avoided it. And I just maintained and I worked on myself and I took it as an opportunity where, you know,

I again, back to one of your guests that you had interviewed Mr. Mr. F, Mr. Baste. Yeah. You know, he said something. He asked you a question during the interview. He says, did you have a lot of fun in there? And I was listening, you know, and I got to say, I've often said to people, people that don't understand or can't understand or can't picture what it's like in there I've often said to them you know it could be there could be a stabbing in the unit

fight and within 15 minutes or the next day everyone's laughing and joking and playing and there's a lot of fun happening and there's a lot of people that look like they're enjoying their stay and so it's like it's a mixed it's a mixed bag of a emotions in there and it's it's kind of sad to see how comfortable people are in there and but also too that's like a resiliency um effect you see and you know it's it's it's kind of a good thing that people are in there laughing and joking because if they weren't then it would really be you know a worse place to be um so you know it's a it's a it's a keen environment you know to have your antenna up all time my father would call it essay situational awareness you know and and just being paying attention and

being aware and it was quite an experience and i relate it um you know if you've never gone to war you really don't know what it's like to be in war or you know and that's an experience i'll never have most likely um so my experience of going to jail doesn't have to be so negative. I can look at it. It's about how I look at it. It's not about how anyone else looks at it. That's their problem, how they look at it.

My view on it is my experience is my experience. And it's something that some people will never experience. And that can be like a delicacy in a sense. Like you'll never experience that. and you'll never get what good came out of it that I did. And it's an environment that, yeah, I don't recommend and I wouldn't want people to go there. But just like my accident, that's a big ball of energy in there.

You can learn, you can maybe work on yourself. When do you have an opportunity for years or multiple years, like shut off, everything, and kind of really stop and really pay attention to what you are doing. And that was definitely beneficial to do and to kind of take a good look within and stop everything. Now I see how the community responds

when there's a drunk driving accident and there's a fatality on social media and the news. How is your community responding to you after this accident? interestingly enough i did experience some of that you know if it bleeds it reads kind of effect um but in town i would say in our friendship groups and parents and whatnot i i was blessed and i was i was fortunate enough that I think people knew me enough. They knew who I was, you know, and they knew I wasn't a perfect angel

and that I had made poor decisions. But they, I had a general level of respect, you know, by my peers and my peers' parents and whatnot. And I don't have any issues with the, you know, after effect or the way I was treated or I can attest to the feelings. You know, you feel that way no matter what. You feel like everyone's looking at you and you feel like you don't even want to go into the convenience store.

And, you know, and it can be, I can understand how that can be kind of a little bit debilitating. And post my accident, I also, I also took advice. and suggestions from people that maybe I wouldn't have, you know, if this didn't have happened. Again, back to being kind of broken and ready to, like, let somebody else tell me what to do. Because let's face it, up until that point, my decisions had gotten me to where I was. So I had to actually, for the first time, look at my decisions and say, okay, Well, if your decision got you here, maybe you should listen to someone else. And I did.

And I took some other people's advice. And my mom was kind of pivotal or critical. In the first person she asked me if I would go speak to was a pastor at a church that my grandmother was, you know, she had her services there. and my grandmother had a real strong liking for this pastor and so my mother said to me, you know, I'd like you to go up and speak with him. And I said, okay. And the only thing I knew about this man was that he was a pastor at this church

that my grandmother liked and he was a former state police officer and he was a former professional baseball player. And I for some reason just thought, that's kind of a cool, it's a cool mix of like, this guy must be kind of cool, you know, I'm going to go, I'll talk to him. And he was cool. He was knowledgeable. He was nice. He took his time to speak with me and help me.

And he told me a couple things that he was spot on with. And he said to me, you and I might never see each other again. We never did. I couldn't even tell you his first name. and he said you need to get help because this will you know come up and overpower you and it could come up in 10 days 10 weeks 10 years whatever and you know so I did I reached out and I took help and I seeked out you know therapy and counseling and whatnot and it's it's it was beneficial it helped I'm glad I did it I felt like it had mentally

prepared me and stuff to go into that environment and like you know what I know now you need to be like impenetrable in there you know because if you're not and you don't have your antenna up and your situational awareness up you might be like you might be getting filled with bad information you know bad thing like everything you just there's so many things you hear in there whether it be entertaining even like to listen to and stuff but like it can also infiltrate you and it can kind of start to like wear it you and make your mind think so like if you're not really paying attention and know like I got to get through this and I got to stay right I got to do the right things I got to make the right moves and I have a life after this when I get out that I care

about and I want to you know um follow up with and have a prosperous like real life you know not filled with this kind of situations and um I can't be glad about what happened to my in my situation, but I can look at what I can look at, and I can look at the silver linings that did reveal themselves. And I was 25 when I had my accident with no kids. I wasn't married. You know, all those things that would have made the situation that much more complex. And it would have been that much more damage, like,

and I use this word like, hostages. You know what I mean? I could have kids that I was drinking and potting and not showing the right things to and a wife that was, you know, just more chaos and dysfunction. And so I have to thank, you know, whatever powers to be that that was quelled, you know, and that I was able to make my mind up and kind of keep my eye on the prize in, in essence, to follow it up. And it, I can tell you, it has been so hard.

I haven't had a license in 13 years now. And the total length of that is 17 years. So I'm like four years out. My children are 8 and 6, and I've never had a license. You know, so it's provided a complex set of dynamics for my family to deal with. And it's hard, too, to think that my poor decisions over a decade ago, my kids are feeling the effect of that. And it's a tough, it's kind of a, it's tough to say that and acknowledge that and know it.

And my kids are actually kind of suffering from my decision making. made 13 years ago. And that's powerful. Like that to me is like, holy wow, you know, like, this was, it's that powerful. And it's still that powerful. And it always will be. And, you know, part of the reason I'm even taking this opportunity, I've spoken these words that I'm speaking right now to many of my friends,

to many of my family members. And, you know, I think it's important for me to keep saying it. Because this is me, this is my life, this is how my life went, this is how it's going, and it doesn't have to be a derailment. You know, it can be a major accident, but we can rebuild. And I think there's so many different ways to do that. I don't think a lot of the ways that we're typically used to seeing. I don't think they're as effective as we need them to be,

and we're not getting the results from a lot of it. So, you know, I'm hoping that maybe my whole story can turn into something that maybe influences that type of, you know, reform or, or, and also parallel on that is like the reformative justice and restorative justice. And I think that's like an avenue that people like myself would bring a good perspective to or a good like, real life a testament to like hey you know what do you got what do you have thoughts on this i think we don't do enough of that in society of like we do a lot of research we we know a lot of stuff we learn and we know like margins and how to sell things and how to attract people and stuff but

like why not get real life feedback from the people that have lived it the people that um have showed the system that, you know, they could provide feedback or they could help fix and create. And, you know, I hope that we see more of that in life. And I only think it's going to come from people like yourself that are doing what you're doing and given other people like me the inspiration to come on. And, you know, who knows? If if things go the way I, would love to see them go. This might be the very start, the birth of maybe me following along in your footsteps, maybe not in the exact same way, but like in a trajectory that's close to it or has maybe

a different kind of message that I would like to focus on versus what you focus on. But, you know, along the same kind of foundations. and I think this is like it's the only way in which we can be because let's face it and I'm sure you can kind of understand what I'm saying right now but it's very hard to to even voice your opinions or your feelings to courts they don't really give you the time there's no there's no time to do that nobody takes the time to ask you that and there's no time in sentencing and in front of the judges and jurors and court personnel to even explain any sort of reason.

Even if your explanation was why you commit your crime, I think that's important. I think that would help the judge sentencing you. You know, and let's put it on a really trivial hypothetical. A guy goes to the store and steals a turkey. Well, or his kids at home going to die? of starvation. I think if his kids are home starving and he stole a turkey,

we should admire him. He just did anything it took to feed his children. And I know that's a, like I said, a really like kind of polarizing, you know, example, but they don't ask you anything. They don't care like about what your background. Tires matter. They're the only part of your vehicle that touches

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It's actually, in fact, I think about 99% of it lands in the gray area. You know, and that's why I think like what's written on a piece of paper about a crime is so, it's so circumstantial. It's so hard. and I don't have a lot of faith in that, like, you can put a number down on a piece of paper that says, for this crime, you've got to do this. Because there's so many circumstances that go into it. And I think it needs to be more, you know, they need to spend more time in the court.

They can't rush through things. And, you know, I could go on for a long time, but you see it now. And with the, with the, you know, the more. capabilities we have to live stream and and put things on the internet for people to see them. You know, it's making it harder for these institutions and systems to kind of like restrict, you know, and keep it, keep it not as known. So that's a good thing for this industry. And I hope that we see it have like positive effects. And I think we are starting to see it because we all kind of know that if something's happening in the public's eye,

it's harder for anybody to, you know, make a decision on something that isn't like forthright or it's not, you know, if it's corrupt, for lack of a better word, or it's not a proper way that the process is supposed to take out. A lot of us don't even realize it or know it or understand it. So we're kind of just getting pinballed through a system. and that's alarming to see. Do you think that your sentence was too light, was it fair, or was it too harsh?

That's a great question. Obviously, I stated earlier, no sentence they could have given me would have been like, wouldn't have fixed any of the loss. I think my overall experience with my circumstance. I think it,

I'm okay with it. I think it was okay. I think I actually was on the light end. And obviously I would appear a little biased of saying I think that's fitting or I think it was okay. I recognize and understand I, I think it was, I did good in a selfish way. That was, I'm happy that I only had.

had to do, you know, was only since two and a half years. But I think that's light. I think it's light for a loss of life. You need to determine, you know, and who better than me to sit here today and stress the importance of determined. I would never sit here and say, yeah, no, I shouldn't have got that much time. Because what I did was highly irresponsible and, it was. And it created a lifetime of loss for a lot of people. So I think I got, I got short amount of time. I can, I can tell you about a situation or a person that I was incarcerated with.

He was out of the Lynn Lawrence or Lowell area. his ethnicity was like I would say Spanish or you know Central American maybe he had had a domestic situation with his wife and him and his wife were both under the influence of alcohol and fleeing his home because of the situation that was at hand he ran one of his children over backing out the driveway and he got 10 years

he was in my unit and I used to look at him every day and think that poor guy you know he got 10 years I got 2 and 1 half I almost felt bad like you know what I mean

it made me feel like oh Jesus I don't even want to tell him I wouldn't even like just made me sad to think that that guy was going to sit in there for 10 years and he ran his child over like he's he's crushed and um that was kind of a it was a weird feeling because i kind of felt like wasn't fair for him you know my sentence wasn't fair for this guy and uh it's crazy you see that kind of stuff so i am fortunate and grateful for how everything

went and you know that i was able to get through it and do it and and and But at the same time, I'd like to take a minute to mention this because I find it almost interesting a little bit. The 17-year loss of license has been by far the hottest and most debilitating thing to deal with. It's really punishing my family now. 13 years later, if I didn't reform by now, I don't think I would. But I can't say that for sure because I think I'm in the reforming part of it.

You know, I think I chose that and I think I stayed in it. I maybe didn't do it perfectly. But I'm doing it one day at a time. And without the license, life's been. and just very limited, reserved, kind of restricted. And I can say I've done a lot for someone who doesn't have a license, you know. I have really made my mind up and stuck to it, that I'm not going to let it hold me down and hold me back.

and I've done that pretty well, but I got to say I don't have an issue right now admitting to you and to the whole world. I'm more beaten down right now than I have been in a long time or maybe ever, and it is all because of the license. It makes every single decision, like complicated, it makes every out of,

it's a planning complicated. And again, it's really making my kids kind of be limited. And, you know, so they're feeling the effect of it. And that feeling that I have is hard. That's hard. It bothers me a lot. And so I'm just trying to, like, I got to be strong. You know what I mean?

Because if I let those things that bother me a lot bring me down, then I'm not a good father. I'm not a good anything. You know what I? So I have to. I can't let all these things impenetrate me, you know? And like I said earlier, you've got to be like impenetrable. And that's hard.

You know, that's like I, when I had my accident, I feel like I got softer, which was a good thing. You know, I softened up. I kind of peeled off some of the layers of the armor that you're, you know, typical male ego has, you know, and this and that night.

I didn't want to fight or hurt anyone or, like even boxing. Like I just say, when I get out of jail, like I just said, I don't really want to punch someone in the head anymore. Like it just, it was like gone. It took it away from me. And in a good way, like I feel like I didn't need that. That's anger. I can be anger.

Even though boxing is a sport and whatnot, you know what I mean? like I just kind of lost it in a good way and that all that stuff like it plays into like how this can affect people what it can do to you it's powers you don't even know how it works and stuff like that and that's why I know when I look back at things and I'm like you got to really pay attention I have to be aware because that pastor told me this and he right and this is now 13 years later and I'm having a hot of time right now than I when I was going to jail and when I was like really in the thick of it and so that to me shows me if drugs and alcohol make people kind of beat down and bad you make bad decisions and it complicates your life

well mental health and stress can do the same thing and they're a byproduct of the trauma that I've, you know, ingrained in my life. So I got to be cognizant. I have to be, you know, on top of things and be proactive. You know, it's interesting that you brought up the loss of license because I think this segment really shines a light on alternative methods of incarceration. I'm sure the judge considered that and thought of that in your sentence. And I also think it's a interesting perspective to see someone who, you know, this didn't happen yesterday where it's in the news and it's a light sentence. Because that's what jumped out at me from an outsider's perspective. And when we see like in rape cases and, you know, different

cases across the country where there's been a lot of light cases for, you know, historically like a white male and people are outraged by that. But they're in the moment on that and they don't kind of see what the full conclusion is. So I think in your situation, you have a case where you see the rehabilitation all these years later and you can look back and it just puts the shoes on another foot, you know, and it just, it really shines light on that perspective. And granted, that doesn't work for everyone. Right.

You know, there's going to be people. that this does not work for them, you know, and there are very, you know, I don't agree that like a sex offender or something should be getting like a two-year sentence. And there's a different, there's a rule for everything and then there's all of these outliers. But I think it's definitely to see it come full circle,

you know, I think you weigh it as, do you give someone like you a 20-year sentence or do you do what they did and you're suffering with that every day, you know? because I've also seen on the other end of the stick, you could have been living like a king in prison. And maybe this loss of license is worse than that. So I think it really just gives you something to think about.

You know, we as humans on the outside world that are very quick to look at the media and the headlines and everything and see that. And to have these conversations and be honest and open about it. Yeah, that is a great point. And, you know, along the line, and I think that is a part of the duty that I have to almost offer that feedback. You know what I mean? Because, and I'm not speaking down of anybody else or putting myself on a pedestal or anything like that.

But I think it is unique in a way. I think I am unique in a way where I have always felt comfortable or confident enough to speak truth to like power. hour, even, and I could go on, I mean, your typical episodes are probably within an hour or two hours. We could go for eight. And if I told you all the things, but I am a person, I think, kind of like you in a sense, where I almost push everything to the envelope, like I feel, you know, push it to the max in a good and bad way.

and I've gotten results that I think other people may not get if they did the same thing I did. And that to me is like a, that's something that I think, I don't know if I struggle with or we all struggle with or what, but when you, where, as people in a society, we like to know things, right? And we like to know what's going to happen when you do certain things.

Like it goes back to forever. reaction, there's an equal and opposite reaction. And I think that I've always chosen a different way to deliver. Or maybe I should explain it as me and you look at something, I see something different from what nine other people see. I'm not wrong, they're not wrong. It's just how my brain works or how I look at things. And I've always been able to voice that to whoever it is.

And sometimes I think we're a little bit reserved or we're nervous or we're scared to tell a judge how we feel. And my life kind of got like so cracked open with that accident. Like everything was so exposed and so happening so fast and real and raw. and, you know, I fill everything and I juggle a lot. And I'm always like, you know, that's me. And I also jeopardized probation, paroles, everything. I mean, I had numerous violation hearings, surrender hearings,

going in in front of the judge with no attorney for these probation, surrender hearings. kind of because I didn't think they were really that important. I thought this was kind of like a joke. This is a surrender hearing because I was seven minutes late coming home from work for a home visit. And I'm being surrendered. I got to take a day off of work. I don't have a driver's license.

I got people driving me here. And again, I don't want to sound like a complainer, but this is just my life going, going fast. I'm missing this. I'm on drug testing. alcohol testing and drugs weren't even really a part of my incarceration. So I'm like, you know, that in those little bits, I'm kind of like, hey, what's up with this? Why am I on drug testing?

I've never been convicted of drug charges. I've never been caught with drugs on me. Why do I have to take drug testing? But any, like it regardless, I had to do all this stuff. And it is what it is. I have experienced it all and I get it. And it's just like it's a lot of stuff that doesn't really mean anything. But I got to see how these little things that might not mean anything to me could land me right back in jail.

And it's just that reminder of like this woman who I did a lot of therapy with Maureen Whitehouse, she's a spiritual advisor and she studies at the Harvard School of Divorbit. and she focuses through like the course and miracles and very interesting very helpful woman and she said to me most people have a sidewalk to walk on you have a razor's edge if you go a little left or a little right you fall off you don't have a sidewalk to kind of stumble around and keep you going in the same direction you have a razor like you a little decision like that is to knock you off. And like these little things that people said to me along the way, I got to feel they're like,

okay, that's what she meant, that's what he meant, that's what that meant, you know. It was kind of interesting, you know, and I got to keep it tight because I don't have the the typical layout that is, you know, offered to us in this world that we kind of take for granted. and you mentioned something earlier and I now live in this world as me a convicted felon and I'll never forget trying to get an apartment when I got out of jail

I paroled into my my brother's wife's parents house. They had some extra rooms and whatnot, so I paroled in there. And it was a tough transition because I didn't have a license. Everything was hard for that. But it also, when it came time to get my own apartment, I'll never forget filling out the applications. and on there it asks you if you've ever been arrested or have you ever been convicted of a felony and filling out the applications,

yes, please explain, write a good little thing, you know. We must have filled out 50 applications and we're not even getting a call back and I'm like, I had to have this conversation with my wife and say, hey, I think I'm going to lie on the next one, you know? And I go, I've been thinking about this, I go, we're handing this piece of paper to a homeowner. Like, it's not going to a police station, you know what I mean?

Like, I'm going to lie because we're clearly not getting any responses. And nothing for nothing, but I think my wife and I will, like, in the upper echelon of, like, the, you know, caliber of people showing up to these places. And I'm like, why are we getting bypassed? You know, and that's it. That's it. You do the right thing and answer the question truthfully and honestly. And you just disqualified yourself.

So it's like how do you traverse this life in these, you know, with these stipulations or conditions that will follow us forever? And it's sometimes you almost have to do the wrong thing for the wrong. right reason. And that's a hard thing for your average Joe to understand. You know what I mean? Because that can trip people up like me, like us, that we're trying to do the right thing. You know, because you start doing little things the wrong way and you might start doing big things the wrong way. So it's a hard, you know, it's a, it's a game of chess in which how we maneuver. And I've said it before, if you want to get an apartment, or if I want to

in an apartment. Well, I might have to apply to 150, and you might only have to apply to three. But that's the parameters that I now. How many discounts does USAA auto insurance offer? Too many to say here. Multi-vehicle discount. Safe driver discount.

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and say, you know, how you doing? Here I am. Now, there is a lot of lessons to take away from this episode, but if you had to pick one to kind of summarize, you know, everything you've learned and you can put that into one person that was in, that's in your shoes or when you were in those initial shoes back then, what would that lesson be? So I think what I would try to capture and, you know, have,

have be understood or it would have to be the amount of loss, you know, it's, it's damn near like impossible to get through it without having it affect a lot of things negatively. And I would have to say, given all my own objective, like, observation of myself and um with no by like just real honest like it and i that's i think that can be hard for me because i'm i'm so honest with myself that i hold myself kind of like i'm my own worst execution you know i i i really hold like put a lot of pressure on myself so knowing all these things and i don't want this to be misconstrued with any sort of um

gauge a barometer on my parents' job, you know, raising me. Because I think they did a good job. They taught me, I knew right from wrong. I know morals and values and, you know, so I think they did a good job on that end. But the only thing I can do maybe or that I would like to say will stay with me the best is my children are eight and six. and again, I want to say it because I mean it. My parents did a good job.

But for some reason, I didn't have that real, like, rational fear for the law and for things that put other people in danger. So kind of leading back to being reckless or being, you know, going down kind of a slippery slow. and I think the only thing I could emphasize is that I now have that opportunity as a parent and parenting is very hard

and I never thought I was going to say that because I had it all figured out when I was like 16 but you don't have shit figured out and I still don't have shit figured out and I probably will never have shit figured out because every single day is different, every decision is different, every, you can't, there's no playbooks.

But I want to instill and impart on my kids and any other kids that I can, not too seriously, but try to start to relay how serious their decisions will be. And how the little ones lead to the big ones and you string them all together. And at the end of it is really,

what your decision made. And that's hard at young age is to realize, like, whether to tie your shoe or not. Could change how long your hip lasts for in your life. So, like, and my point is these little, little idiosyncrasies and these ebbs and flows and, like, things that we don't even really pay any mind to affect us. And obviously, the bigger ones.

affect us more, but the little ones are just as effective because when strung together, they make a big one. So I think it's important for us to kind of, well, for me to focus on with my kids, like, you know, making sure that they understand the full ramifications and like the full, the full gravity of their decisions because before they know it, when they're 16 years old, they could very well be in a situation exactly like I. I was in. And I also took out of this something in a very roundabout way. And your question kind of brought it up. I also want to stress to my children as they get into those critical ages and influential

ages where they're going to be peer pressure, there's going to be drinking involved, there's going to be drugs maybe involved, there's going to be things happening that hopefully they'll make good decisions at good times. And again, And no misconstruing why I say this. But my kids, and I did this a lot of times, and we drank and drove where I grew up, like we all did. I did, my friends did, we all did. It was like, and again, I'm ashamed and it's hard to admit,

but like I can remember friends of mine actually uttering the words, I'm driving with Murray. He's the best drunk driver. And like, that just rings in my head. You know what I mean? And I'm like, oh, my God. It's awful to hear that. But I'm going to teach my kids that if they get into someone else's car drunk,

knowing that the driver's drunk and they're drunk, and they bring an open can into that car, they're putting their friend in a bad situation. And again, I don't mean this like, I made a bad decision to drive. but April's father, and this is why I bring this up, another one of the things that he was just a miracle of a man to do and say and think this way, he said to me, and I forget exactly at what point of the, you know, everything or where we were or when he said it, but he said something to me that, like, my daughter made a decision to get in your car

just like you made a decision to drive it. And for no other reason that that man was able to show me that sympathy, it is so powerful to me. But also, I've thought of that for so long. And I don't, like, it kind of almost bothers me that he even puts any sort of, like fault or responsibility on her. But at the same time, I've looked at it and thought about it

and like analyzed it so much that I thought one day, I said, okay, well that also puts a little bit of power into the person getting in the car. They, by them getting in the car, whether they know it or not, if a drunk driver gets in the car, of course he could kill somebody in another car.

but if that drunk driver gets in a car alone and doesn't hit another car and has a single vehicle action, he can only kill himself. So by getting in that car, I introduce the possibility of him getting a vehicle or homicide charge. And that's a very roundabout kind of way

and I don't know if you follow it or not. But I can teach my kids like, hey, listen, don't ever put your friend in that situation. Not only for your own safety, but for them too. and that's weird, but I understand that because I wouldn't do that to somebody else knowing what I've been through. And it's a good way, I think, if we taught kids that, it might be a different, something in their head might,

it might sink because that's like being a good friend. I'm looking out for my friend by doing something. something or not doing something, I can change what he's subjected to. So that's a weird way of looking at it, I know. But it's interesting to me for some reason, because it's like, how do we deter people? You know? So I also thought of maybe a law or something that you could lobby for if the cops pull us over and you have an open beer in my passenger seat.

Maybe you get a $500 fine to you, not the driver, but to the person in the passenger seat. because what else will deter it puts, if we don't have something that will deter that person from bringing that beer in the car or even getting in that car, then it puts all that on a 16 year old driver maybe.

You know what I mean? They don't, they're not, they don't have the, so I think we need to teach our own people and that's why I can't teach someone else. I don't know who the driver will be in five years from now that my daughter might be getting in the car with. So if I teach my daughter not to,

get in a car that you've been drinking or the person's been drinking, it's, you avoid that situation. And when we drink, when people drink, you have to remember that all, you know, or not all rationality, but sometimes rationality and reasoning and logic go out the window. They're gone. So I think it's important for me as a, as a, you know, an observative, objective father, I take all the things that I've felt and witnessed and had come out of this type of situation and, you know, apply it to my parenting.

And, again, that kind of puts me in that category of, like, being a little unorthodox or whatever, but so be it, I've been that my whole life. And I find when I am being unorthodox and I'm kind of doing things in a different fashion, that's good for me. That means things are working because back to, like, the 9th, out of 10 people, I see something different. So I have to go with what I believe. It's usually real.

And, you know, that's kind of, there's so much that comes out of it, you know. And I got to also keep it a little simple, you know, and try to keep life simple. And that's something that has, you know, kind of stemmed from slowing things down. not going too fast, not wanting things too fast, being a little more patient. I think there was so many lessons delivered to me that I probably needed all the extreme learning curve.

You know what I mean? And if you're that believer of God gives you what you can handle or what you need practice with or whatever, you know, well, I got a lot of it. And I'm still, you know, a work in progress. It's compelled me to tighten up. And that's interesting how you ask that. You know, after all these years, what, you know, what sticks? And it's kind of a tough answer, but that really is what sticks out to me, you know what I mean?

I got to look within. Like, it's not other people's problems. It's us, you know, and I can only really influence my two kids. and anybody else I have the opportunity to do so in the right fashion. So I'm going to continue, and that's, you know, hopefully a journey that a lot more pathways open up on. So I don't know, like, how we're doing for time and whatnot, but there is a couple of things I would like to maybe touch upon

kind of on a little bit different of a topic. but during my incarceration at Plymouth County, I worked in the property department. And that was, I think I'll be able to say until the day I die, probably the most interesting job I'll have for a lot of reasons. But I got to see every inmate coming into the jail and every inmate leaving. I signed them in, I signed them out, I did their paperwork, I did all. It was an interesting job.

And I worked kind of hand in hand with a couple of COs, and the COs and the COs in the property department were different from the CEOs in the units because they would switch the COs in the units every 60 days, and, you know, they worked a different schedule and different hours and whatnot. In the property department, they bid for that job, so they stay in there for like a year. Then they bid again if they like it. So you might have the same, my whole time I had the same CEOs every day.

So you do get a little bit of a relationship. I had a good routine. I would read three papers a day. I always kind of joked. I read the papers before the COs did when they got delivered into the property room. They went right to me. And I'd read them and then I'd hand them off to the COs. And that was only because of the way my schedule was broken up work-wise.

I, you know, it wasn't because I was more important than the COs, obviously. but I had a routine. It was an interesting routine. It kept me, you know, going through motions. It kept the days ticking by. It kept me kind of plugged in. However, there came a lot of nuances and politics and whatnot in that job in itself of, like, that, hey, you know, there was some inherent dangers.

I was in close proximity and in charge of inmates' property when it was being stored. So like, God forbid, I had another inmate that worked with me. So let's say the other inmate was stealing something out of someone's property box. Now, I could be inadvertently blamed for that. They'd come down for court the next morning. My job is to take, I would change all the inmates for court every day. They'd be like 75 guys going to court. Come down to the tank starting at like 5 o'clock in the morning.

They'd give their box to me. They'd hand it right to me, and I'd bring it in and put it in their spot. And if they'd get their box back at the end of the day, if they came back from court. If they didn't, it would get broken down. So there was a lot of enemy situations there in the morning time where there'd be a lot of fights in the holding tanks, co-defendants, that type of situations,

that maybe got through the, you know, the staffing. And so you'd see a lot of that. And it was kind of, you know, it was interesting. You didn't know what was going to happen at any given moment. So I liked it. It was interesting. It kept me going. But the most interesting thing by far was I was the property officer during Whitey Bulge's trial.

So every day they would take him in and out of the facility and I would deal with him. And it was just kind of, for me, being a guy that lived 20, 25 minutes outside of the city that he was from, you know, and ran and hearing about it my whole life and, you know, being there and seeing him and being that up close and personal and just seeing. it from my perspective now we spoke about my dad and his career at the jail and the side so i i would hear verbiage and i would hear my father talk about you know um being firm fair and consistent um you know i would hear him talk about security and whatnot and they you know he had all this stuff so uh complacency uh all these all these terms you know from a correct officer perspective that I'm hearing my father and now I'm seeing it in real life. And day one of the Whitey trial, they're bringing them down past property and they tell me I got

to go inside the property department and close the door. So I do. Day two, they tell me to go in, but they leave the door open. Day three, they don't even make me go in. I'm in the hallway with them. Day four, I'm passing things hand to hand. I mean, I got to see the complacency just deteriorate. And I often remember thinking to myself, and I'll try to say this as gracefully as I can. I often remember thinking to myself like, wow, if I was really, you know, a loose cannon, I have a lot of opportunity right here that I could really kind of do anything, you know. and that kind of was like I saw why what my dad was talking about and I saw why it's important and stuff

because like if I wasn't, you know, had somewhat of a locked on and an end result, you know, that I wanted to get to, an assault or, you know, to get your name in the paper, whatever, it was so right there for me. But I found it more interesting just for the simple fact that I was able to be that close to him every day and hear and listen and talk to him

and I was able to acquire some stuff that had his signatures on it. And, you know, I don't even like to call it an autograph because it's, I know it's like it's kind of bitter, you know what I mean? You're emulating someone who did really bad stuff. But without getting too buried in that stuff or lost in that stuff, I still have to remember. I mean, this is one of the most infamous gangsters in history, you know. So in that sense alone, it was interesting.

and being a property inmate, we also have a lot of like contact with the other inmates. They, you know, propositioned a lot to get stuff, do this, do that, whatever. So I knew that going into it. But I was like Santa Claus leaving the property department every single day. And certain CEOs would allow it. And some of them were really decent guys, you know, and they were nice and they had hearts and competitive.

fashion stuff. Some of them were real, real, real jerks, you know, and they talked down to you and they made you feel shitty and, you know, like one guy said to me, yeah, sure, I trust you like an inmate, you know, and I just wanted to, you know, give him the finger and say, you have no clue about me, you know, I'm more of a man than you are, so save it. But there's no point in getting into that type of stuff and it's hard because that kind of can, if you, again, If you're not impenetrable and you can let that stuff bounce off you, it is, it becomes you. And you become what they think you are and all that.

It's a dangerous, slippery slope. But I'd be leaving the property department with a bag full of pillows, extra sheets, new boboes, everything. The guys loved me. They'd be out in the handball court that'd rip their boboes up and I'd have them a brand new pair that night, you know. And it was just, it was an interesting thing. and I'll never forget one day I'm coming down the, they called it the spline,

and I got a big old sack of stuff I'm bringing to my thing, and the COs are all the time. You had a shakedown last night. I'm bringing a bag that's like everything they took, I'm bringing it back the next day. And the workers' unit was awesome because you always get an extra pillow. It took a little while, but it would regain everything. Actually, it didn't take a while. It was very short in there, you know, a while. is in different, different time frames and stuff,

what you should expect and what you can expect. But it was just like a whole different world within a world. And I was in it. Only some experience. Yeah, it's a lot of people would, they don't even have a clue. You know, they don't understand even when you tell them. That's why people are so interested in this type of show. Yeah.

And just, just for the, just to kind of. touch upon that a little bit. I was listening to on my way here on the on the on the Amtrak. You know, we talk about some of these really, really bizarre things people do. And again, I'll keep it graceful because I got an eight and six year old, you know, and eventually they'll probably watch this show. And, um, I hope that they do. And I hope that they can, you know, be proud of who I am and what I did, you know,

throughout because it hasn't been easy and if you know without them knowing they know they know that somehow life's a little tougher for me they see it they see all these other dads getting in their car and going grocery shopping and dropping them off and they see that their mom has to do all the driving and has to do everything and like i don't really want to have that conversation yet they're a little young you know but they're also in the day and age of they'll be googling my name and do i want the patriot ledger to pass along my story or do I want myself to? Because back to what you had said, the Patriot Ledger added a few things that might even not been true,

were wrong, misinformation, whatever. They don't deliver it like I would. And, you know, let's face it, kids are like impressionable. And they're, you know what I mean? really like that's a that that's going to be a hard thing but i don't want to be beaten to the punch on it so i don't want to prematurely pull the trigger so i'm kind of you know that's something that's still i'm i'm going to think on it for a while and um you give them the link to this episode yeah yeah yeah right right right exactly um but i was coming down the spline one day of the jail

and I happened to walk, you know, shoulder to shoulder to J.W. Carney, who was Whitey Bulger's attorney. And, like, so there was just all these things that, you know what, I got to take with me instead of being like, oh, I was incarcerated, I'm a convicted felon. Well, I talked to Whitey Bulger, and I met his attorney, and I did all these things in there that nobody will probably ever be able to do. and good bad or indifferent it's part of my kind of thing and i i wanted to make it to a point where like it wasn't all negative you know what i mean it was like wow i got that opportunity and that was kind of cool and in a weird way you know very so that's kind of how i've looked at it because i don't want to be like i don't i don't want it to i don't want it to turn me into like a sour you know

what I mean, like hardened person, you know what I mean? You don't have to be like that. I went in there and I had respect from a lot of different races. And I kind of got that respect by giving that respect and just doing nothing. Nothing. Just walked. And I'd just not talk to anybody. And before you know, one guy would come up to you and ask you a couple questions.

Another guy, oh, hey, you seem kind of like a good guy. like from what i didn't do anything but that's how things happened and and like i had a good positive effect on it uh or um good positive like um i think i used the wrong word but the it was a not a bad um experience it really it got me to even further believe that there's good you know and bad everywhere and there's a lot of good in here in the jail and a lot of talent too. Absolutely. Well, Matthew, thank you so much for trusting me to share your story today on this platform.

I think you did an amazing job for the first time doing it in this type of setting. Thank you. And I wish you the best with your business and your family in the future and, you know, just keep being you and having that positive outlook. Likewise. And thank you, you know, with my utmost respect and, you know, and inspiration for you to continue. And, you know, I really, I think this was a start of something for me.

And I owe a lot of it to you and your platform and what you're doing. And I just can't say enough about it. I think it's a tremendous, tremendous gift that you're given to a huge community. And thank you again.