Locked In with Ian Bick - The Truth Behind DUI Cases, Cops Fabricating Evidence & Jury Selection Secrets | Kayla Murphy

Episode Date: September 9, 2024

Attorney Kayla Murphy reveals the truth behind DUI cases, how some cops fabricate evidence, and what really goes on during jury selection. Kayla also shares her thoughts on testifying in your own defense and whether it helps or hurts your case. She dives into some of the weirdest and most bizarre cases she's worked on and she reveals her #1 tip for defendants in a criminal case that could make all the difference. #DUICases #CriminalDefenseTips #JurySelectionSecrets #PoliceCorruption #TestifyingInCourt #LegalAdviceForDefendants #CourtroomDrama #WeirdLegalCases Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Connect with Kayla Murphy: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/drinks-with-defenders/id1683479140 http://wenatcheecriminaldefenseattorney.com Presented by Tyson 2.0 & Wooooo Energy: https://tyson20.com/ https://woooooenergy.com/ Buy Merch: https://lockedinbrand.com Use code lockedin at checkout to get 20% off your order Timestamps: 00:00:00 - Drinks with Defenders podcast 00:03:30 - Facing Sexism in the Criminal Justice System 00:06:48 - Time in Trial Sentencing 00:10:20 - Applying to Law School and Passing the Bar 00:13:45 - Thinking on Your Feet and Winning Trials 00:17:12 - Feedback from Judges and Prosecutors 00:21:09 - Biases and Relationships in the Justice System 00:24:38 - Juggling Public Defense Cases and Private Clients 00:28:14 - The Art of DUI Defense 00:31:45 - Miranda Rights Explanation and Legal Ramifications 00:35:03 - Flaws in the Justice System 00:38:52 - Challenges of Juror Bias in Trials 00:42:28 - Social Media Sleuths and True Crime 00:45:51 - Bluntness in Conversations 00:49:14 - Challenges in Jury Selection 00:52:49 - One-on-One Questioning Practices in Courtrooms 00:56:41 - First Female Criminal Defense Attorney Interviewed Powered by: Just Media House : https://www.justmediahouse.com/ Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Terms apply. Have you ever done a podcast before? Well, I have my own little podcast. Oh, you do. Not very popular. We'll put the link in the bio if you want it to help promote it. Thank you. Yeah.

What kind of podcast? Well, it's called drinks with Defenders, and it's me and my best friend from law school, Addy, just talking shit about our jobs and drinking. Is that allowed? You know. I don't, you know. Okay. All right. That's cool.

Did you tell her you're coming out here? I did. Okay. What did she said? She's excited. She's excited for me. She's criminal defense, too? She is.

In Idaho. A whole different world than Washington. So she's going through like the whole Idaho murder. everything out there. There's a lot going on. She was even saying you could be charged with like a felony for having like a marijuana vape cart. Really?

Yeah, it's wild. Wild out there. Yeah, that's incredible. A lot of white supremacist stuff going on too. Yeah. You meet some interesting characters and charges like interviewing people on the show. You kind of see like a wide variety of individuals who have gotten, you know, caught for silly things and extreme things.

things too. Yeah, absolutely. I'm sure. You've been listening to the show for a while. Yeah. How long have you been listening to it for? Oh my God. I don't even know. Um, yeah, I feel it's not that old, right? So, yeah, a year and a half now, yeah, last January. At least a few months. Wow. Maybe six months-ish. Do you learn anything from listening to it in your line of work? I love it. And I've been, I mean, really it's just like kind of a practice in empathy. Sometimes it can be, you know, just a grind when you have a lot of clients and you kind of, you know, it's a good reminder. Like people have a whole life and whole stories and whole experiences that led them to this point. So yeah, I've been telling other criminal defense attorneys to listen to it too.

I'm like, it feels empathy. It's good for us. Yeah, it's so cool that we're getting. criminal defense attorneys on the show now more are willing to come on because a lot of them, I got in the beginning, like with other YouTubers and influencers, they don't know what kind of questions they're going to ask. And I always never really focus on individual cases and more of like the broad spectrum of the job. So I think it makes them more comfortable. And it was cool to have like my attorney's perspective. But it's great to have you here today, Caleb, because you are

our first female criminal defense attorney, which is awesome. And it's a big honor to have our first female on the show to give a different perspective entirety. And our audience loves the female perspectives. And this one's even different because you never went to prison, but you are, you represent those that, you know, do get themselves involved with the criminal justice system. Yeah, absolutely. It's a trip. It's a trip.

I feel like I kind of have to assert myself more than my. male colleagues. It's just, it's really interesting, just seeing what they go through and the difference between how people treat them and how people treat me. Like, I've straight up had people like laugh at my face before when I told them that I was an attorney. Really? Yeah. Just like a couple of weeks ago, I was at the courthouse and I was sitting next to my friend who's another criminal defense attorney. And this guy came up to us. And he was saying, like, his wife's in jail. He needs to, you know, hire an attorney. And my friend was like, oh, I'm a public defender. But like, you could hire Kayla. Kayla takes, you know, private cases. And the guy, like, would not even look at me. It was, like,

the most bizarre thing ever. Like, he was like, no, I'm good. Just, like, walked away, wouldn't even make eye contact. So, I mean, you know, stuff like that, like kind of ways. on you. Yeah, do you think that men that face a criminal justice system feel like they're not going to get the best defense, which is completely untrue, but in their eyes, that's what they think from a woman, you know, attorney? It's not just men. Women are sexist, too. Women are sexes too, man. Really? Yeah, absolutely. But, you know, I think that's going to change because you see a lot of these powerful political figures having female attorneys. Like Trump's lead, you know, criminal defense attorney in one of the states is a woman.

Look at some of the other ones that have solved huge cases like Sydney Powell with Enron. And in a lot of cases like that, you do see powerful women attorneys. My aunt's an attorney, too. And she's a great attorney. So I would actually, you know, in some cases you'd want a woman to defend you more so than a man because of the jury, too, if you're going to trial in that sentence. 100%. So true.

Do you do jury trials at all? Oh, my God. It's the best part of the job. It is, right? I love jury trials. Yeah, I've talked to some criminal defense attorneys, and they always say, like, there's some attorneys out there that have just never been in front of a jury, and it's just like they're missing the whole part of being, you know, a lawyer and in that scene and in your element,

and you just, like, it's such a fascinating thing. It's such a trip to, like, how much your kind of, I don't know, like perspective on the justice system can impact how you steer your cases. You know, it's like, obviously it's up to your client, right, if they want to plead guilty or take it to trial. But I really feel like your attitude as their attorney really plays a big role in the decisions that they make. And I have really just embraced a fuck it attitude. You know what I mean? Like, like maybe you have a loser case, but like fuck them waste their time. Like if they want to take away your liberties, like make them fucking work for it. And I've noticed by kind of having more of that attitude, like more of my clients are like willing to go to

trial. Like, yeah, why not? Fuck it. And I think that's really empowering for people. I see why you liked my attorney's episode. He's like, you got to hold them accountable and you got to try it because their conviction rate is only so high because of everyone pleading guilty. That's not the same stats for an actual trial, what those conviction rates are. Now, that brings up a great point about having more people go to trial. There's a huge misconception that, you know, judges give you extra time because you went to trial. And I thought that too, but in my case, I actually got less time after trial than the plea deal that was offered to me. So can you kind of like clarify if that's actually true or not?

Will you get more time if you lose a trial by asserting your amendment right to go to trial? I think it really depends. At least in district court where there's like, you know, misdemeanors and gross misdemeanors, so like a maximum of 364 days in jail and a $5,000 fine, what would happen is any time you plead guilty to a crime or found guilty of a crime after trial, the judge would hear sentencing recommendations from the defense attorney and from the prosecutor. And then ultimately it's up to the judge. And theoretically, he could sentence you up to the max. If you lose at trial, typically, the prosecutor will recommend more time, but we can, you know, still recommend whatever we think is appropriate. And, you know, maybe there were real issues in the case and the judge, you know, sees the whole, you know, story. And so I don't think it's like a hard and fast rule, but it is something that I, you know, warn my clients about. Yeah, because it's more exposure in the sentence. But I think in my case specifically seeing the judge being able to see the entire facts. Exactly.

Whereas like when you're doing a plea deal, the judge doesn't get to know you and is only going off of the words of your pre-sentence report and the attorney and the prosecutor, your defense attorney and the prosecutor. But people are afraid to go to trial. Yeah. I just love it so much. It is, I feel like it's what being an attorney is all about. just the the art of trying to convince people

something that I've realized about you through listening to your podcast I'm like kind of psychoanalyzing you I feel like you're kind of a kindred spirit in that you know it sounds like growing up and stuff like being liked and accepted was always really important to you

and that's always been really important to me and it's something that I've I was like a weird kid you know and I have like a lot of friends and like the friends I had, it's like I was always the butt of the joke kind of thing, you know? So I've paid a lot of attention to like how to, you know, get people to like me and like make friends and stuff. And so just kind of getting to put that into action in a jury trial, I find to be really empowering and interesting. And that's like what I do now with my job,

just not in front of a jury in front of a, you know, a virtual audience. But I think it's a weird people that, you know, are the ones that make differences and the ones that have cool jobs. Like, my friends call me weird all the time because I have a weird job. Like, what I do is weird. My whole life has been weird. So that's what makes us unique as individuals. Absolutely. I would never want to be not weird the way I look at it.

And the people that don't like you for that, then fuck them. Fuck them. Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. Why did you decide to become a criminal defense attorney? You know, ever since I was a kid, I, I loved watching cops with my dad and America's Most Wanted. So I was always really interested in the criminal justice system

and I always wanted to be a part of it. But I had kind of like a rough childhood and I did really super bad in school. I graduated with like a 1.7 GPA. Wait, in high school at 1.7? Yeah, man. Holy cow. How do you even get the law school? I know.

Well, yeah. Well, you go from undergrad to law school, right? So I did some time at a community college, and then I kind of got my shit together in undergrad and was able to get into law school. But actually, it wasn't so easy. Like, I really wanted to go to the University of Oregon. My mentor had gone there and I was like all infatuated with Eugene. And my husband, we got married and we were like 19. And so he's a lawyer too And we went to law school together Criminal defense too Yeah Oh that's awesome And he got accepted like right away Right after he applied

Like within a week And these motherfuckers like are not getting back to me Not getting back to me Not getting back to me And I'm like fuck this We're going to Eugene I'm going to sit down and I'm going to be like Listen

You need to let me into this law school And here's why And that's what I fucking did And then I got accepted a couple days later You must have a great pitch What was your pitch I wish I remembered. I, yeah, I think I was just, I explained to them about how dedicated I was to go to the school.

And I'm like, if you guys don't let me in this time, like I'm just, I'm just going to stay here and I'm going to try again. And, yeah, I think that they appreciated the determination. Did you pass a bar on the first time? So, I am a lucky duck because I graduated law school in 2020. Okay. So we got diploma privilege. I was 100 hours into studying for the bar when the Washington State Supreme Court was like, listen, if you graduated law school and you pass like whatever, the Washington portion of the test, like not the big test, you just had to do a little part and, you know, do X, Y, and Z, then you can become a lawyer without having to take the whole bar. You didn't have to take the bar?

That was because of COVID. Yes. And a lot of people, yeah, I think some other states did diploma privilege too. Like, yeah, Oregon, Washington. several others. I would have been great for that. Dude, it was fucking incredible. It was the best day of my life learning that.

That's like some Mike Ross shit right there. I was incredible. And I mean, yeah, I mean, studying for the bar and the bar, it's all stupid, right? It's all just like designed to be like a barrier of entry, I think. Because you straight up need to be studying like eight hours a day for three months. And you can't work, right? And yeah, it's a lot of money all the time. In trials, how much are you actually using what you learned from your books in during a trial?

Because I know you have to actively look up law and you have paralegals that help with that too to see that law that you're arguing during a trial. But how much are you actually using that you learn physically in school or in like a bar exam setting? Like the rules of evidence are the biggies, you know, like hearsay or, you know, relevance, like objections. But other than that, it really is like a learn-as-you-go type situation. It feels like you're just kind of thrown into the deep end and you need to figure it out. And then what about the actual trial? Does law school prepare you for that? Or is it more like you kind of learn as you go during the trials?

Definitely learn as you go. And at least on the defense side, it feels like trials are very like reactive. like I don't know I don't want this to sound bad I prepare I do but I get like stressed out if I prepare too much you know what I mean you got to wing it sometimes thank you like me I don't prepare for interviews I wing it I used to prepare but then you over prepare and it gets in your head and it affects your performance exactly so now I just wing it go with the flow all I need to know going into an interview is like what is the ultimate thing that happened? Like, is it an addiction story?

Is it a professional story, like an attorney or a psychologist? Is it a prison story where this episode is going to be more about their prison experience? Or is it going to be like a crazy story, like a bank robber where we're just going to focus on not prison, but we're going to focus on the heist itself. Yeah. So those types of things. That's all I need to know going into an interview and then the rest I can handle. I love that. It's like you just bet on yourself and you know it's a safe bet.

yeah that's kind of how I handle trials usually too like for example like I had one not too long ago where the prosecutor's like theme which you know I didn't know what it was going to be before was basically that like men can be victims of domestic violence too my client was like a pretty you know young girl who was like accused of assaulting her boyfriend and so it's like I just love the having to think on your feet and be like okay what am I going to do here? Got an all-male jury. Oh, you took this one to trial.

Yeah. All-male jury. And my big thing was like, yes, men can be victims of domestic violence. But this is not it. Just like validating the cause, but, you know. Did you win? Yeah. Oh, that's great.

That's fucking awesome. Well, there have been a lot of, you know, big woman cases. Look at the one in Massachusetts where the girl got her. boyfriend to kill himself by suicide. Oh, right. With the gas in the car in the parking lot. The exhaust gas. Yeah, that was great.

That was one of the first, you know, domestic, big nationwide cases where a female, a teenager was on trial, too, nonetheless, a young girl. It just, it really is crazy in that scenario. So what do you think was like the ultimate factor that? Tires matter. They're the only part of your vehicle that touches the road. Tread confidently with new tires from tire rack. you're looking for expert recommendations or know exactly what you want.

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Wouldn't you want all women though in that scenario? You would think, but I had a trial before with kind of similar facts. And I lost that one. I don't, I don't know what it, like, I hate to say it. But like having a, you know, pretty young client too, I think that the men maybe felt like we're, you know, they're protecting her. And also they probably feel like if they can emotionally connect, it's one of their own accusing this woman of what, you know, of that she did something wrong and they're looking at the facts and saying, oh, this, we can't let this slide. Totally.

Yeah. It's it's all about perspective. And in this business, too, like, it's all about how a person looks, how they present themselves, their storyline. And that's a lot like a jury. Because when I went through it, I saw it's all a show. like it's a show you have to look at everything and whatnot do you think that uh is it a myth or a fact that if the jury looks at your defendant um it's a not guilty verdict and if they look away from your defendant when they're coming in to read the verdict it's a guilty verdict it's so funny you

ask that i have been paying really close attention to try to determine if that is in fact true i i can't say for sure that it is i think that usually they have avoid eye contact, even when I've had not guilty verdicts. How often are you talking to the jury after a verdict to get to see where maybe you went wrong, what you're learning from it? Because I know in some cases you can't talk to the jury. Not often. Honestly, usually I'm pretty exhausted and just excited to go home. I'll talk to the judges sometimes afterwards to get some feedback. But I really should talk to the jury next time.

What was the biggest piece of feedback a judge has given you? That's helped you. Yeah, I'd use in a different trial. It's a really good question. Well, it's interesting because I had one judge who was telling me that I shouldn't be afraid to object more. And, you know, the vibe was like, you know, like you can be more aggressive. Like you can object, it's fine.

But then I had another judge straight up called me snippy. Out in public to the group to the group? No, like I was, I was, I went like to his chambers like after a trial and, you know, was asking for feedback. And yeah, he was like, you know, like you're being kind of snippy with the other judge or with the other attorney. And it's just sexism, man, it's just ridiculous. Like, I just watch, like, my male colleagues be, like, total fucking dicks sometimes and just totally, like, emotionally, like, beat the shit out of the prosecutor. But it's like, I just try to, like, be assertive and I'm snippy. Now, on the flip side, are the prosecutors coming after you differently because you're a female?

Good question. It feels like it sometimes, you know. I think I'm easy to like underestimate initially, but I, you know, kind of going back to, like, the rough childhood. Like, I'm always, like, down for a fight. And, like, I fucking love it. And so, like, I thrive on conflict. And it's like, it's, like, not a good thing. But, you know, it works with this job.

Yeah. Oh, I mean, that's, like, the new age of criminal defense attorneys, not like the ratty old guys that are, you know, showing up to, like, no energy, not willing to take a case to trial, you know? Like, John, my attorney, he's got all the energy in the world and he's been doing this for years and he'll be quick to go at it. But not all of them are like that. So to have a young, hungry perspective of wanting to go to trial. That's impressive, you know. Thanks.

It's just a blast. Now, have you ever encountered a judge that was a former prosecutor? And if so, do you think that they favor the prosecution more? Most judges are former prosecutors. And yes. Yeah, I was talking to someone yesterday. Is it a prerequisite to be an attorney to become a judge? I think different states have different rules on that.

It's wild to think that anybody who was not an attorney could become a judge, since you're literally ruling on the law and on different like evidentiary issues. I know legal professors sometimes become judges. They're usually lawyers. Oh, they are at some point? I think so, at least in my law school. Or maybe not like they would take the bar. I guess by definition, they're a lawyer.

But maybe not have practice. Totally. That's true. But I guess to become a judge, you would need that experience in a courtroom though, too. To be a good judge. Yeah. Thank. But this is my problem with the justice system is the judge is supposed to be this impartial figure. But when they are, there's two aspects.

One, if they are a former prosecutor, I really don't see how they're not leaning more towards the prosecutor. Right. But then also on the flip side, you have the prosecutors that become criminal defense attorneys who you would kind of want to have because they know the inside scoop. And especially if they know the judge. Now, the second aspect to this is that these judges invite the prosecutors and criminal defense attorneys to Christmas parties and they hang out with each other. that's not a fair and just system in regard like everyone's interacting people are forming relationships you're always going to have some favorite whether people that the system wants to admit that or not totally you're recognizing that the system is made up of people and that people always are going to

have like those predispositions right and those biases which are like conscious or unconscious And you're totally right. We do hang out. Like everybody hangs out and they're, yeah, in this kind of judicial incestuous way. It's true. Yeah. And how is that fair to the person that's in the public defender's office? That's not invited to a Christmas party or whatever.

That's just a regular one going up against a seasoned prosecutor and a season judge where you have a new public defender and the client, you know, is. can't afford an attorney and this is what they're given. It's tough. You know, it's not really a just system. Yeah, it's true. Why do you never go into the public defender's office? What do you mean? Did you work for a public? I did. I did. Yeah. For not, not for very long. I was poached out of the public defender's office by a private criminal defense firm. And now I have my own private defense firm. So you move pretty quickly through the ranks. I, you know, I have a contract for public defense as well. So I still do public defense work. And I can sign private clients. So it's just, I don't know, this job can be very emotionally taxing. And, you know, it's really

nice to just be able to, you know, if I don't have the emotional capacity to deal with something at a given time, then not having to do that. No, as someone that was a public defender and now in private practice, do you think you could better represent, you're still the same individual, same moral, same character, but do you think you can better represent your client now that you own your own practice compared to being a public defender? I think so because I can take care of myself better, you know, like I'm less of a B when I'm not super stressed and I'm less stressed working for myself because I, you know, don't have to deal with a whole bunch of extra bullshit.

How many cases do you juggle as a public defender compared to private practice? So my contract, it's like I can take three quarters or I have three quarters of a full public defense caseload. And in Washington State, a full public defense caseload is 400 misdemeanor cases a year. So technically the max is 300 a year for me. And then I have the other portion would be private clients. But it's a grind. They just changed the rules in Washington State and lowered the number of cases for a maximum

caseload, which I think was definitely needed. Yeah. Anytime I have more than like 60 clients, I start losing my mind a little bit. 60? I probably have like some money or no. At one time? Yeah, man. They're attorneys that have like over 100.

Now, do you have like an assistant, a paralegal? clerk, how does that work? No, I'm kind of a one-woman show. You do everything. So you're doing the billing too, all of that? Wow. That's incredible. I mean, I'm mostly just cheap.

So I'm like, I'll just figure it out. I mean, I do my own accounting. I try to be as much as I can, you know, on my own. Because when you actually shell out everything, you're barely, it's hard to, you've got to make some money for yourself. It's hard when you're, the more you divvy out, the less you make is really what it comes down to. Yeah. Wow, that's incredible, though, 70 clients, and you're doing it all yourself, but do you ever have overlapping trials or what happens to your other clients when you're on trial?

I actually had that happen recently. I had two trials that were supposed to go. The other one just got continued. I mean, what can you do? Yeah. Now, you're sharing with me that you do a lot of non-felony cases. Yes. But that we'd be surprised as an audience that there's a lot of cases. You that you would think would be a felony but are actually a misdemeanor? Oh, yeah. I think we were talking about some fun sex cases. Yeah, there were some people having sex on top of a car. And, yeah, I was just, I was telling you about that because I just, I loved the whole Titanic

of it all with the picture of a handprint on top of the car as part of the evidence. And I remember they ended up finding the woman like naked hiding in a porta potty. And they didn't charge her. But my guy who was like behind a bush or something, they decided to charge him. And this is tough business. Public indecency or something? That's probably what it was. It's about a minute.

But yeah, it was they were outside of an apartment complex. So just giving the whole apartment complex a show. So did the apartment complex call? Somebody from the, yeah, somebody from that. And did you take this one to trial? No. On the trial place. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So there are some scenarios where you say we're not, we can't go to trial on this one. I mean, I'm always down to clown, but I think he was just kind of embarrassed. I just wanted to, you know, move forward. Does that ruin your reputation at all by taking on taking all these cases to trial? Because there are, it subjects you more to losing in your record. I'm sure attorneys look at a record, right? Or keep track or it doesn't matter. So they definitely do.

and I'm always a little bit suspicious of attorneys who just like say they win all of their trials because it's like, are you a coward? You know what I mean? I think it's brave and cool taking losers to trial. I think that's, you know, in my book, that's even like more impressive than taking a winning case because it's like you're, you know, a martyr for justice. It's beautiful. What are your favorite cases to work on types of cases? I love DUIs. Oh, I have a great question for you about the DUI.

So we were talking to a personal injury attorney that's a good friend of ours the other day. And he comes up to us and he says, hey, we have a great hack. And he's saying hypothetically, he's not telling people to do this, but a great hack that can get you out at any DUI. And he's saying that if you're driving, say you're driving drunk and you pull over, the cops pull you over and then they come. You put your keys in like the glove box or something. You don't have the keys on you. When the cop rolls down the window, you start drinking right in front of him inside the car. That's funny.

Can you get away with that or not? What's a loophole on? Is that a loophole? Okay. So there's DUIs, right? The classic drinking and driving. There's also, at least in Washington State, physical control charges. So being an actual physical control of a vehicle while being under the influence.

A defense to physical control. is that you were drinking after you were driving. So, you know, theoretically you could try to argue that. But then if they take your blood, they can do retrograde extrapolation and see, you know, how much alcohol you had in your system. And if it would have been possible for you to reach that level in that amount of time, you know? I didn't realize the blood. I got to tell them about that. Okay. So why DUI cases that you enjoy doing?

there's so many ways the cops can fuck up. And my favorite part, I mean, besides trials, I love just like going through a report. I feel like a mean teacher. You know what I mean? Like, oh, look, you fuck this up. Oh, you fuck this up too. You're so dumb. I love that.

And there are so many things you can mess up in a DUI investigation as a cop. Like you can mess up the field sobriety tests. You know, maybe you have a Miranda issue. There's a lot that can go wrong and a lot that you can check. And so that's what I like. What's the biggest mistake you've witnessed on a case? Oh, man. I mean, I've had cops straight up lie about shit.

There was this one case where the cops were saying that my guy and his girlfriend were trespassing in a specific area and that they had seen them. But I watched the body cam footage and you can never see them there. And so they ended up having to throw out my case. and they threw out the other case too that they were prosecuting. And what happens to the police officers in these moments? Nothing. Like a slap on the wrist?

I mean, theoretically, there could be like a Brady disclosure, which is basically like something that gets sent out to the attorneys, like, hey, this cop has been found lying and discrediting him. I don't think that happened here. I mean, yeah. Now, you brought up a great topic we've never covered before as the Miranda rights. And we see on TV like the class of you're arrested, you read your rights, this and that. Is it true that if they don't read you your rights, the whole case, the arrest doesn't count?

Or what are the legalities there? Totally. So they have to read you your Miranda rights anytime you're subject to a custodial interrogation. So the first part being in custody, it doesn't just mean like being under arrest. rest, it's any time that you're in a position where a reasonable person in your shoes would not feel free to, like, terminate their encounter with police. The second part is interrogation. So really, like any words or actions on the part of the police that they think are reasonably likely to elicit an incriminating statement from you. Insofar as there's a Miranda violation, your attorney would

argue that whatever statements you made should be suppressed. It wouldn't affect the rest of the case unless the case was based primarily on your confession. Yeah, that's a very interesting topic because I, when I got questioned by federal postal inspectors, the post plates do not play. Yeah, the postal, and we'll get to that part, but they don't, they never read me my rights when they went to interrogate me and they handed me my target letter after the conversation. So the jury found me not guilty on that charge and the judge and his instructions said exactly what you said. You have to

a reasonable person. The whole legal spieling you just said perfectly was literally what he said. And it makes a great point because a lot of people don't even realize in those scenarios, which is why you always need to have an attorney present. Always shut the fuck up. Absolutely. Never say anything. Never. People always think

that they can talk themselves out of it. I promise you can't. And something I just found, I have a legal question for you. GPSs, right? If a GPS tells you to do something that's against traffic, laws. Can you get out of that because blaming the GPS or what's the legality is there? I don't know. I mean, you can argue, right? It's all about arguments, whether it would be successful.

Yeah. Yeah, so I got pulled over a couple weeks ago. I was in New York City, made a right on a green light down a road. And apparently these cops pull us over and the cops say there was, there was no street signage. They're saying it was on the pavement. you can't go right there. But the GPS literally said go right there. And the cop's excuse was, oh, you can't trust the GPS. That's what he said. I think you could at least get that ticket mitigated. Yeah, they charged $135.

But the problem is they say you have to show up. So am I really going to go all the way to the city for a hearing? I don't know. But I don't know. It's just it's kind of interesting that technology brings into these issues at play. I wonder if you could just write a letter. Oh, to the court?

Yeah. I should try. I actually interviewed a New York State wiretap investigator. Ooh. Yeah, a couple days ago. And he said pass him over the ticket. So I'm going to give him the ticket, see what he can do. And the crazy thing is I had a police PBS card in my car and I forgot to use it from a New York officer that was on the show.

I love that. Yeah. So I should have used that too. Is that real? Which, the PBS cards? I mean, like, it does it? Apparently, if you slide them when you get pulled over and you have the sticker on your car and you just say, here you go. Yeah.

Apparently, it's all, but that goes to the system. It's all about who you know. That's why, like, these rich kids or whatever can get out of charges, political figures, this and that. It's just all the systems, it's an unfair kind of rigged up system. It's a clown show. What do you think is like the biggest thing you've realized about the system that you might not have thought about growing up, but now that you're actually in it, you're living it, you're breathing it, you're like, wow, this is, you know, this is real. America's first pledge was freedom. Jeep still carries that fighting spirit.

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All just like fuckups in our own way. And so that's kind of like disconcerning in a way because it's like, God, this justice system is just so fucked up. Just run by all of us fucked up people. And it's just a terrible system. But then at the same time, it's kind of like, okay, well, bigger dummies than me are, you know, being successful. So, yeah. What is something that you see as a common factor among your clients, if there is one? I think everybody has a sense of powerlessness. You know, I think that this system really tries to rob you of your humanity. And people have different ways of dealing with that, you know, sometimes. They try to kind of assert their power or like get their power back by like asserting power over me or like being a dick to me. Other people, you know, like want to take it to trial or, you know.

But yeah, I would definitely say it's like a sense of powerlessness. How does it feel going from when you have a big caseload going from one case to another, especially after a loss, like just being able to transition and it's on to the next. one. I had a police sergeant here who, you know, he talked about you're on the case, you're on the scene and then you get the next call and it's out to the other. Do you ever have time to like actually analyze like that trial or go through the details or feel for that person before you're on to the next one and you have to shut out the old one? Not really. It's a grind. It's a grind and it can be really overwhelming emotionally. I have tried to like keep a journal of like my wins, you know, like just to like remember like the good clients and the good things that happened

because so much of it is just shitty. Now when you watch a media, um, from an attorney's perspective, do you ever look at cases that are make national TV and you're like, yeah, this person's guilty? Oh yeah. Just based off of it. Oh my God. I feel like I am more cynical than most people. Because you're an attorney. Yeah. And plus it's like I see the magic that criminal defense attorneys can do with with shaping the narratives, right?

And I don't know. Criminal defense attorneys just really have like this incredible ability sometimes to just take something. And I know because I've done this, like very innocuous and just kind of like, you know, create reasonable doubt. at uh no you see you're this is great because you're an attorney that's looking at national cases that make the news and you say that person's guilty yeah what's to say that a juror doesn't see the news or something on tv or read something and say the same thing you're right without even knowing

the person you're so right and that's a problem you're right you know so how how can you even have a just trial in that sense i feel like most trials people are going into it jury like if you get called to a jury selection i you there's i don't know a jury juror and and ever that's not going to go home and look it up i i just don't see it happening and maybe you might think differently but i just i don't see it how could they not and in this day and age with everything with ticot with social media with all of that i completely agree with you and it doesn't matter that the judge says you can't go and look at it or this and that you know it's just that's a silly part And how do we fix that?

How does that get fixed? Do we not publish things in the media until the person's actually found guilty? Is that a solution? Maybe. I mean, I think you're definitely right. Again, it's like it's human nature. No matter where we are, like, they're just, they're humans, doing human things and having human impulses.

And, yeah, I don't know what we can do to fix that, but you're totally right. And family members, you know, like you say, oh, I'm on this person's trials. because it's not like you could say, oh, honey, I'm away for a few weeks, you know? So you know you're at this, you're the juror getting the influence of a husband or a spouse. It just, I don't know. Now you said that criminal defense attorneys work their magic and you've seen some things. What's been like a wild case that you've seen maybe in national news where you thought that person was guilty and they ended up being innocent? Ooh, I don't think I've had that experience quite yet.

Okay. One case that I've been watching like really closely though is the Delphi case. Delphi, what's that? The murder of the two little girls in Indiana. Oh, with the mom? Was that the mom? It was like the Monon High Bridge, right? Okay, maybe you're not super in the true crime community.

The only one I've been following is the Idaho murder case. Okay, yeah. I'm following that one. That is an interesting one. Yeah. So the Delphi case, I think it was like 2017 on like February 13th. I'm pretty in it. There are these two little girls who were murdered on the Moinen.

They were walking across like the Monon High Bridge and they had caught some footage of this guy following them who ended up being the suspect in the murder. And now there is somebody arrested named Richard Allen. And the defense, they wrote this motion. I think it's like a Franks motion or something. And they were talking about how there were all of these like symbols in the murder place. And there were all of these like clues that pointed to odinism and the fact that it was like a ritualistic odinistic murder. And yeah, I don't know. I think that's really interesting.

It sounds kind of like a defense attorney working their magic about something, but there's something about it that feels a little bit true to me. Anyway, look into it if you're a true crime fan. It's a very interesting case. Now on the topic of true crime, I saw a documentary, I think it was on HBO Max about, and this was pertaining to the Idaho murder case, but not the case necessarily itself. It's about the social media sleuths that become like these influencer investigators for true crime. Do you think that hurts the defense or helps the defense, these individuals that are out there, kind of documenting it in their own way, coming up with their own theories and putting it out there? Because this documentary kind of put it out, giving you the perspective that it's like very dangerous to put these theories out there. Like one person got sued because they accused the teacher of being the culprit in the Idaho thing, which had nothing to even do with it.

Yeah, I definitely think it does more harm than good. you're like tainting the jury pool and you know putting out narratives that a lot of it's like not true right i don't know i feel like our generation is like with tic talk how like previous generations were with like getting their news on facebook and i'm totally guilty of this too but i'm like i saw it on tictok it must be real but um you see so much of that right with true crime and like rumors surrounding these cases and so it seems definitely seems harmful yeah what's your uh opinion on the TikTok as a criminal defense attorney. I fucking love TikTok.

What do you think about the government banning it? Do you think this will hold up legally in court from a, you know, a judicial standpoint? I mean, from my understanding, it's a done deal. No? Weren't they ordered to sell it by a certain date or it would not be? Now they're appealing it to the super. They can appeal it to the appeals court and then the Supreme Court. they can fight and I think they're saying it's an amendment violation.

I don't, I don't know. I hope that they're successful. I think TikTok's amazing. And it makes me just like suspicious of our government. Like they just don't want us to have like free exchange of information and call their bullshit out. Do you ever use TikTok to help with your cases? Has it ever helped you maybe learn something about a different case, expose a fact or

or anything or even social media in general. I mean, I definitely follow like other lawyers and, you know, like confidence in the art of persuasion and like tactics and stuff. The big ones are the what to do when you get pulled over attorneys you see on TikTok. Oh, those are fun. Those are fun. There's a couple great guys that I watched and it just, it really has modernized. Because, you know, there's these attorneys that are licensed in all these states and stuff.

So TikTok's a great tool for that. And it's like what to do when you get pulled over or this and that. So many states have different laws, though, too. Like, so that can be kind of tough. Yeah, it does vary. But I mean, the general consensus is like there are these things like don't talk to the police when you're getting arrested or interrogated. What advice would you give to an individual that's going through the legal process or is just getting approached by, you know, police or law enforcement. What's your, what's your first words to them?

Um, shut up and don't be a dick. I love how blunt you are. Yeah. Well, I've, yeah, I mean, I'm just like used to having like hard conversations with people. So yeah, I think I'm just very blunt. I mean, definitely like being a dick cannot help you at this point. Um, and I see people to try to like, you know, talk about the constitution and like, like, question the, you know, the cops, like, during the stop. And I say just, like, wait to talk to your lawyer about that. It's not going to be helpful. You're just going to antagonize him.

And you're probably going to end up in a worse position than you would have otherwise. So it's like, shut up, but, like, be compliant. How hard is it to convince a jury that your client didn't show evidence of guilt by not cooperating and talking? Even though it's our right to not incriminate ourselves and talk, I feel like something. sometimes by looks, like you could be guilty just by, you know, not cooperating, not taking the stand, even though it's very much our right to do that. Yeah. I've had other attorneys have different perspectives on it. Like some attorneys feel like juries really need to hear from your client because even if we, you know, tell them they can't, like you were saying, you can't use the fact that they're silent against them.

I mean, we're all just people. And, you know, from one person to another, it's like, if you didn't. do it, go up there and tell me that you didn't do it. Me, I am a little bit more cautious. I mean, you know, you never know if your client's going to show up and be high as fuck that day and do a really poor job on the stand. You know, there's just so many unknowns. And, you know, both defense attorneys and prosecutors are trained to like, you know, ask questions a certain way and try to solicit particular answers, and it's tricky business. And God forbid you have, like, other criminal convictions, particularly things that, like,

cast out on your veracity, like theft charges and stuff, those can come out, too, if you testify. It's such a catch-22 with the testifying. Because your criminal defense attorney can guide you the whole way. Everything's great. But as soon as that prosecutor comes on for the cross, that's where you're either sinking or swimming and that can determine your case. And then on the other end, you know, the jury could say if he didn't, like you said, go up there to talk, they're guilty.

Did you testify? I did. Yeah, I testified. I was like three days. They literally had the whole like Yale intern law clerks or whatever there. The whole thing was packed and it was like two or three days of testimony. And the prosecutor was like, objection. This is like a cocktail party the way he's telling stories.

It was quite the show. The head U.S. Attorney for Connecticut came. Oh, my God. It was a show. And, I mean, we did good because the whole thing is keeping your cool. Yeah. That's the biggest thing. And my lawyer said that from the get.

Like, there was no way we couldn't not have me testify. But you have to be cool. As soon as you start snipping back, I will say that the biggest thing I think is so unfair about the criminal justice system. And I bring this up because I was watching Your Honor, which I was telling you about. And we see this in my trial and so many trials is. that these prosecutors will bring up something from the past that's not allowed. They'll say something wild. And then the judge will say, instruct the jury, unremember that.

Yep. Don't remember that at all. He's not allowed to say that. Strike that from the record. That is so unfair because no human being is just going to automatically forget that. Like if a judge says or if a prosecutor says, well, you know, did your drug problem have anything to do with this? And the judge says, that's not allowed strike it from the record.

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How do you feel about that? Tainting the well. Absolutely. Yeah, that's definitely a thing that happens. I'm thinking about like, and prosecutors will just say some wild shit, man. Like I was doing voir dire where you pick the jury for one of the cases I had recently. And something that I do during voir dire is like explain the different burdens of right to like help the jury understand what beyond a reasonable doubt is right like first we have

whatever prongerance of evidence and um i just i make like a little chart right like here's this look burden of proof here's this one and then here's the highest one the one that we're dealing with today and the prosecutor like gets up there after me and she's like has anybody ever read the book liars and statistics it's like i'm sorry Because I'm talking about the fucking burdens of proof. Like, you should embrace the burdens of proof. Like, you being shady about, like, the high fucking standard that you need to meet today, like, just, you know, ruins your credibility. And I won that case.

What are red flags you pick out right away in a jury? Like, absolutely, like, you need to get this juror off your case across all cases. Family or, like, or anything. ties to law enforcement, like family members or friends in law enforcement. That's big red flag to me. Let's see. I'm trying to, I'm like, I'm about vibes. I don't know. There are definitely like some people that you want. Like, I hear that engineers are good for the defense because they think really analytically and, you know, they're really going to pay attention to the high standard. I hear teachers are really good because they're, you know, empathetic people.

And you don't want people in government jobs is what I've heard too. Yeah. And you want more people that are working on farms, working in factories, individuals that are not like just normal people that wouldn't necessarily understand the justice system and could give like a fair assessment on it. Absolutely. Yeah. People who seem like more open-minded. too. Now, something I learned too, because I went through jury selection last year, I got called for jury duty randomly, and I was, I didn't, I just went through it because I wanted to see what

it was like on that perspective. State court's a lot different than federal court. Federal court, a jury selection is normally done very quickly, and you're not one-on-one interviewing the jury. But I know in state court, I don't know if it's like that in Washington, but the prosecutor and defense attorney can do each individual juror at one time where in the feds you're interviewing everyone at once. Yeah, we interview everyone at once too. Okay, so I guess it's different by state. Maybe like if it's like a sex crime or, you know, something really sensitive, they'll do one-on-one questioning. But yeah, not like the assaults and stuff that I work on. How many trials have you done? By myself, I think five with other attorneys, the eight, nine.

How long have you been practicing? Four years. Okay. What advice would you give to Kayla going back to day one, your very first trial, your very first case? What advice would you give yourself back then? Just to trust myself. being an attorney is so weird it's like sometimes you think you're like the smartest person ever and other times you're literally like a piece of shit and you hate yourself so it's a weird

dichotomy but uh i would just i would just tell myself like Kayla look at all you've accomplished so far like you know if we're looking at your track record like you're you're a safe bet um yeah What do you think is the biggest misconception misconception about the criminal justice system that you want to clear up to the world? That it's just, it's not. It's designed to convict people. It's designed to incarcerate people.

Something that I feel like this should have been really obvious to me, but for some reason it's only now hitting me that pre-trial incarceration is totally just like a mechanism that the state uses to get people to just resolve their case. I don't know why it's taking me this long to figure that shit out. But yeah, it's a trip, man. It's totally designed against you. And the best thing that you can do for yourself is just like stay as far away from it as you can.

If, you know, I don't know. And how many people that you get as clients do you believe are genuinely bad people? if there are any. Like how many people are actually the people that made just a one-time mistake or are just evil, not good people that will continue to do this if they get a second chance? I mean, I've had hundreds of clients. I've never thought that anybody was evil. I mean, most people are really cool and really normal. and, you know, some people are kind of dicks, but, like, you know, you're going through it, right?

Like, it's probably one of the worst things that you're ever going to experience, and I certainly can, you know, be a bee, like, if I'm just having a bad day. So, like, going through, like, your own personal tragedy, I, you know, I can appreciate why they would feel that way. But most people are really cool. What would you say to the people that read a newspaper article of a case that just broke out? Someone just got arrested and judged the people that are going through it right off the bat. They'll post something nasty on social media or they'll be very quick to judge that individual. What do you say to those judges? What if it was your little brother?

What if it was your best friend? Like, anybody can get caught up in the criminal justice system. I mean, seriously. and it's once you're in it they're gonna fucking fuck with you as much as they possibly can and it's just really not designed for us for the people it's designed for the government to get convictions absolutely well Kayla thank you so much for coming on the podcast today you you killed it I know you didn't know what to expect coming into this but great answers great insight and we really appreciate you being our very first female criminal defense attorney.

Thank you so much, Ian. It's been a pleasure. Awesome. Safe travels back and enjoy the rest of your time in the city.