Locked In with Ian Bick - What It’s Really Like Being a Cop in Today’s America — 18 Years on the Job | Kenny Williams

Episode Date: August 3, 2025

Officer Kenny Williams has been a police officer in Indiana for 18 years. In this interview, he talks about what led him to join the force after 9/11, how the job has changed over the years, the role of social media and body cameras in policing today, and some of the common misconceptions people have about law enforcement. This episode offers a real look at the day-to-day reality of modern policing from someone who’s lived it. #PoliceInterview #LifeAsACop #PolicingInAmerica #BehindTheBadge #LawEnforcementLife #CopsAndCameras #PoliceTruth #modernpolicing Connect with Officer Kenny Williams: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/red_ninja111?igsh=MWo1ZHh0dzYxdHVpag%3D%3D&utm_source=qr Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/5pRD9OgiOpXBK6UQIBoA4x?si=ynDSmY29S8eethKSHW1J1g Website: https://www.justiceacademytraining.com/ Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Get 50% off the Magic Mind offer here: https://www.magicmind.com/IANB50. #magicmind #mentalwealth #mentalperformance Presented by Tyson 2.0 & Wooooo Energy: https://tyson20.com/ https://woooooenergy.com/ Use code LOCKEDIN for 20% OFF Wooooo Energy Buy Merch: http://www.ianbick.com/shop Timestamps: 00:00:00 From 9/11 to Law Enforcement: Officer Kenny Williams' Journey 00:05:32 Dirty Cops and Their Prison Experiences 00:10:53 Impact of 9/11 on Personal Perspectives 00:16:14 Empathy in Law Enforcement 00:21:44 Navigating Panel Interviews in Law Enforcement 00:27:09 The Weight of Power: Decision-Making in Law Enforcement 00:32:14 Challenges Faced by Correctional Officers 00:37:47 Understanding DWI and Field Sobriety Tests 00:43:24 Changing Alcohol Laws for the Super Bowl 00:48:49 Challenges with Traffic Stops and Officer Demeanor 00:54:17 The Ethics of Making Videos on Duty 00:59:44 Technological Advancements in Retail Theft Prevention 01:05:03 Strategies for Narcotics Investigation 01:09:57 AI in Law Enforcement: Tools and Limitations 01:15:25 Challenging Stereotypes in Law Enforcement 01:20:26 Policing Reforms and Challenges Powered by: Just Media House : https://www.justmediahouse.com/ Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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The more dope you catch on people, the more likely they are to talk from my experience, personally. So if I catch you with a lot, there's a higher likelihood that I feel that you will snitch on someone compared to someone that might be, have some user amount. After 9-11, Kenny Williams felt called to serve. Now, with 18 years on the force, he's breaking down the truth about being a cop in today's world. From the biggest myths about policing to how social media and cameras have changed the job forever, Officer Williams gives us an unfiltered look at Life Behind the Badge.

Kenny, welcome to Locked In, man. Thanks so much for coming. It's a pleasure. Privileged to be here. We were supposed to do this back in April, and then I disappeared to do that project that's coming out soon. And funny enough, we were just talking that you were almost casted in that project, too. I was.

Yeah, I had like an hour conversation, and that would have been very unique. That would have been cool. That would have been so funny if, like, I'd see. said I had to reschedule and then we both showed up there. That would have been amazing. That would have been awesome. We would have so much to talk about. I'd do the interview right there.

That would have been cool because there'd be that whole thing about a podcast. That would have been really funny. But yeah, thanks again for coming out here and being so flexible with rescheduling and stuff. We had like 100 guests to reschedule over the past few months and just getting back in the swing of things the last month and catching up on things. But it's good to be back recording. And now the episodes come out faster. So it's funny.

Like if we did do the interview in April, it probably still wouldn't have been out. Yeah, because I had so many backlog. But now, because I pushed all mine out when I was away to do the project, they come out within like a week or two. So it's pretty good. And I'm back to five episodes a week. That's crazy. You put that many out too. I watch a lot of them and I try to like manage my time to get one out a week.

So I don't know how you do five. It's nuts. So now you're an active cop right now, our first ever active cop on the show. that's still in the department aside from we've had a couple sheriffs on and county jail wardens and whatnot what are your favorite episodes? Are they the law enforcement episodes

or are they the criminal or addiction type episodes? I like the ones that are focused around dope. I don't know for whatever reason. My passion is to like that, I guess the opposite side of people using narcotics or like I like to find narcotics when I'm working. And for whatever reason,

I find it interesting to see how people get involved, either the addiction aspect or the selling aspect. So those are my favorite to actually listen to just to get a different perspective. Does it help you do your job better? I think it helps you to understand and be more empathetic when you're dealing with people that have addiction problems or even people that come from harder times and then are resorting to selling drugs to make life easier, I guess. So you have a different like empathy and understanding, I guess. The other thing I appreciate about you is that you have a podcast while also being active in the department. So it's cool that the higher ups at the department allow you to do that because I know that's not common in every state.

I have a really, really supportive administration. My first six years, I had six different chiefs. But maybe my past 12, I've only had two. So the first six years, it's kind of interesting to have that much change. But the last two chiefs I've had have been nothing but supportive. not just me, the entire police department, they're very, I don't know, like they support productivity, they support their guys, they kind of go out of their way to make sure everyone is a comfortable and kind of give you the freedom to do what you want.

Yeah, I think it's better to do like interviews with someone that's actually active because then it helps break down that wall between civilians and police officers if people are feeling a certain type of way just to have that open communication and to watch podcasts like that. I agree. And I think with that aspect of it, you, like I like your podcast that are involving drugs, just the niche work that I do. I like that. But if you're, I guess, had a bad experience with a cop and then you can watch an active cop and you understand, like, sometimes we'll break down videos and talk about those types of things. But mainly I'm just talking to other cops, so you realize that they're, they're all human.

A lot of us have the same hobbies, sports, those types of things as everyone walking around the streets. And it's not just the uniform. The uniform doesn't define cops who they are. It's, you know, there's a person underneath there, just like anyone else. And I think you just get that different perspective than all the negativity that a lot of the media puts out there when it comes to law enforcement. Where did you grow up? I grew up in Indiana. And is that where you're currently a cop?

I am. Oh, so you spend your whole life in Indiana. Who do you grow up with? Early in my life. So I was conceived. My mom and dad got married for three months by the time I was born. They were already separated. But when I was three months old, my dad got cussed.

of me. So I basically grew up with my dad. My grandparents helped out a lot. Any siblings? I do. I have a very blended family. I have no like fool, but I have several half-sisters, step-sisters, a stepbrother. Hey, you know the corrupt undercover cop story that we had on Jamie Buford was from Indiana? Which one was that? That came out back in February. I know the name. Yeah, he was a cop in Indiana. I mean. He was a cop in Indiana. I mean, there's probably different police departments. Yeah, that's a pretty big state, but I'm trying to think, I was trying to think of where, I didn't realize he was a cop in Indiana.

Yeah, I'll send you the link to it if you didn't see it already, but he was, I just put it together. Interesting. Yeah, that was a very interesting story. People like to see that's, those types of stories as well. Like the cops that become dirty. Yeah, and I think people are more fascinated with how they fare in prison. I think that's always a big interest because I had another cop Jeff Aftcher in, and he was

Massachusetts and he got sentenced to prison too in Massachusetts. There was some body camp footage, an altercation with a suspect, and that landed him in prison. Damn. Yeah. So was your dad in law enforcement at all? Any family members? No, not really. I guess once one of my half-sisters got, her mom got remarried, so kind of loosely there was

like her stepdad was a cop. So maybe like lose connections, maybe like, but no one really in my immediate family was ever in law enforcement or anything like that. Just a bunch of blue collar workers. Like honestly, like my youngest uncle was the first one went to college, all in like the still mill type industries, truck drivers, that type of work. Did you know you wanted to be a cop when you're a kid? No. I go through high school. I was like C average at best.

I really didn't know what I was going to do. I played sports and that was something that really interest me. so when I go to go to college I start down the education route and then September 11th happened kind of changed my perspective so I went to my grandparents who I was living with at the time

and I was like I'm going to go in the military I used the excuse of like I couldn't afford it those types of things and they're like no no we'll pay for college just don't go to the military so then I just changed my major to law enforcement I guess quasi military maybe I could in my mind at the time I was like

I could have hopefully a positive impact or make a difference somehow that way. Why do you pick education for college the first time? Initially, it was, my mom has some drug problems, so I was looking at trying to impact kids and have a positive impact on them and if they could see maybe a similar path that I had went down and their way out, you don't have to go, you know, the route of like substance abuse and those types of things. And I was thinking if I can get them at, you know, maybe middle school or high school, that I could change that perspective where,

and I becoming a cop I can kind of do the same thing but that was initially why I was picking education did your mom I mean did your dad talk to you about your mom's addiction and issues as a child growing up no because I would see them um to still get custody of or like a visitation so I would have to go see her and stuff and then I didn't realize what was taking place until probably in my early teens then I kind of put things together what was really happening and about the age of 15 I kind of stopped talking to my mom how would people have described you in high school I know you said sports and see student, but other than that personality-wise. I don't know.

I'm pretty introverted, to be honest with you. It took me a while to come out of that, like, the introvertedness. I have, I could talk to people one-on-one pretty good, and if I have close friends, I'm, like, very, like, extroverted with them because I feel comfortable around them. But it takes a while for me to, like, warm up to people to actually, like, open up the podcast and being a cop kind of. forces you to talk. So that's a little different perspective. But yeah, like when it takes a lot out of me to do that type of thing. So when I, when I, you know, after a couple podcasts are talking to people all day, I go home and crash a lot of times because it takes a lot out of me like physically to, you know, have these conversations. Yeah, people don't realize how it could be. And even just listening to,

you're sitting in like a two hour interview and they're, that the guest is telling you so many traumatic, emotional things and you, you have to listen to that. It's a lot. I'm exhausted after every interview, you know, it's tough. And on days I have to do like two or three, it definitely beats you up. Can you do more than three a day? I'm just quick. I've done, I actually did like five or six one day when we were in, we were on the road in Kentucky. We did like, I think like five or six each day. And that's tough. And one, I don't even like doing it that way because I'd rather go more in death, like, do like an, you know, an hour and a half or two hours if the story allows it to go there with some of those like deeper crime type

stories, but just doing it one after another, it's super hard. And that's why I don't really want to travel. I'd rather the guests just come here. One, because the quality is better. But two, by the time I drag myself out there, I'm exhausted from traveling, you know, the change in time zones and everything like that, it's just, it's rough on the body. No, it is. Mentally and physically. So I'd just prefer to be in here. It's more comfortable, and it's, uh, it just looks better, too. No, I agree. Yeah, I got about two in me a day, and that's about it. After that, I'm like, I can't do it. I just know, like, I'll be zoning out sometimes, too.

Like, I'll be in the, you know, like, the middle of that third podcast, and I'm, like, zoning out, like, not really paying attention. And I just feel like I'm not doing the person that I'm having conversation any justice because I'm just kind of like mentally checked out at that point. Yeah, I don't mind doing like after this we're doing your podcast. That's different because that's me talking, you know, whereas if I have to sit for two or three or just me listening, I mean, there was a couple interviews like last week where I did two back to back and they were like two and a half hours each. the guest carried the interview which was great i love that they had such great stories um but it's a you got to stay awake yeah no kidding you know you got to push yourself in that sense for sure yeah no i get that yeah why did nine 11 change your perspective i guess it was the first like like massive thing that happened in my life that i was like old enough to do something and make a difference about

if that makes sense like as a kid you you know there could have been other things that happened like I was born at 82, so like there was the bombing, like 91 in New York and stuff, but I was so young it didn't have an impact. And then going into college, I was 18 or 19, roughly when that happened. So therefore, in my mind, I was like, well, I'm at the edge to make a difference if I need to make a difference. And I'm very patriotic. I love this country. So, like, that was another thing. And instead of me sitting at a school, kind of molding kids' minds, I felt like as a cop, I could probably maybe make a difference.

by taking quote-unquote bad guys at jail and maybe molding some youth's mind at the same time. Where do you think your patriotism came from? Where was that instilled in you from? I think 9-11. Like it just, I don't know how old year. We were probably young. That was 2001, so I was six.

Yes. So as bad as September 11th was, September 12th was one of the greatest days in this country because everyone was very like nice, understanding, you know, like the whole open door, say thank you, all that stuff. That was all here. And it just, it just changed my perspective in that aspect. Like, yes, it was horrible what happened, but the way that everyone in this country came

together on the very next day and we all stood, like, united to, like, whoever attacked us, to, you know, to, I guess, defeat them and protect our homeland. Like, that's where I think it came from. It was crazy. Do you think certain people are impacted more than others? I mean, everyone witnessed what happened, but not everyone was quick to join the military or, you know, the police force? Yeah, I mean, I'm sure that it impacted individuals across the board,

but I don't know. I don't know why that was like the direction that I decided to go. Probably young, a lot of testosterone, 18, 19 years old. You're like, if anyone can make a difference, I can, not knowing, like, you know, the severity of what was about ready to take place. Do you ever think about what would happen if you continued down the military route instead of the police route? I have.

And I have no idea. You look at it in the amount of people that are, you know, passed away and the soldiers and those types of things that are forever scarred that, you know, having to deal with and see the things that they had to see over there. I don't know, me personally, if I was mentally strong enough to do that. So maybe it was a blessing because, you know, the people that went overseas that were able to see that stuff and can cope with it and however they cope with it and move on in life and be successful,

pretty impressive. What did your dad think about you becoming a cop? They're all supported of it. They didn't really, there was no pushback. How did you know what department you wanted to apply to? Well, I didn't, so I applied at about 50 different departments before I got, oh, at least. Some of my own doing, so in 2020, I was 20 years old when I started applying. I'm trying to think. I applied at specific departments that, like I had maybe had friends or, you know, aspirations, like maybe I had to work with a friend or something. and that was working there. If I didn't get those, I kind of like slowed down. In Indiana, you can't be hired until, or you can't go through the academy until you're 21 years old. So I was super young when I was doing it, but it taught me a lot of things about what the process took place, interviewing, and all those types of things.

So it did help me, but when I was 22, I decided to drink way too much and I hit a tree. I got charged with OWI, so that put like a three-year stint on where I was battling that type of thing. still trying to be a cop, but it didn't really necessarily benefit me by any means whatsoever. And I think that kind of hindered me. But in that process, I was applying at so many different departments. Even though I had that on my record, I was just trying to, I don't know, move on and make better decisions. Was that a misdemeanor or a felony? It was a misdemeanor.

And that didn't disqualify you at all? Or did it disqualify from some departments rather than others? I don't know. I don't know about some departments, but I know as a state overall doesn't disqualify you. how fresh it was and I was still applying. I think that kind of deterred people from hiring me initially. Do you think it should disqualify people? I don't think it should disqualify.

I don't think it should disqualify. Misdemeanors, as long as it's something that is not integrity-based, like if you're not committing fraud or something along those lines, or violent-related, I think that misdemeanors are ways that you can show that you're human, you make a mistake, and you can improve. And as long as it's not a repeat offense, It was a one-time thing. I realized that drinking and drive

is a pretty dumb thing to do. And I moved on from it. I'm not going to wood. I've never made a mistake like that again. But yeah, I don't think it should disqualify cops as long as it's not repetitive, not violent. Crack a Cayman Jack Margarita with real lime, blue agave nectar,

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No, I'm sure you encounter a bunch of, uh, DWIs now on the job. Do you think about yours when you have those encounters? Yeah, I think it gives you a different perspective. I think it gives you as a cop a little more empathy towards individuals that are in those situations, especially we can tell if it's a first time or whatever. And I do have a lot more empathy and understanding in those situations, especially if it's like, you know, some people are going through a divorce and they have a bad day and then, you know,

or, you know, a young kid not realizing what it will do to you and those types of, of things. So I'm definitely more empathetic. I mean, I still have a job to do, but it's still like, I can explain my story and that this isn't the defining moment in your life. It's a learning experience and you can move forward and be just as successful as you want to be. Have you found that there's a lot of cops that have had those learning experiences in life before they join the force? I think a lot of good cops have made questionable decisions. and I think that helps build the understanding of how criminals or quote unquote people get involved in some type of criminal activity. And I think a lot of good cops that have that like mind and understanding of why they went down that road individually.

I think that that helps them out when they're out there working. Do you think cops feel the need to hide that, the good ones? I don't know. I've done a several podcasts with cops that are very open about things prior to being a cop that. change the direction of their life, all misdemeanors, because you can't be a felon and be a cop, but all misdemeanors, like, oh, I made this poor decision, bad decision, and those types of things. And, you know, now they're very successful in law enforcement. So I don't necessarily think the people that I talk to try to hide it by any means. So now when you joined, what was the department you finally got accepted to?

I'm going to say Northwest Indiana. Okay. Is that cool? Yeah, of course. So you get into north into that area as a department. What's the training like? What's that process like? When I got hired, I went through a brief FTO until the academy started,

and then the academy was like 16 or 18 weeks. And then I came out, and then I had to finish my field training, I guess, field training, whatever role it was. And what were you doing in those years waiting to get that job, especially since you had that three-year gap after the DWI? I was a bartender. So, like, that kind of helped me bring my introvertness out, because in order to make money as a bartender, you have to talk to people.

So in college, I just decided to become a bartender. I don't really know why, because I was not outgoing at all. But I knew sports, so I was like, well, I could talk about sports. And then it kind of just led in the other things where, like, all right, now I can make drinks. And if I'm busy, I'm not thinking about, oh, I'm introverted. I can't, like, have these normal conversations. So I'll be making drinks and having conversations with, you know, people around the bar. and it's not as awkward.

It's like once I was behind the bar, I was very comfortable at having those conversations. Do you think that being the bartender helped you break down that wall of being an introvert once you got onto the job too? Yeah. I mean, there were still certain things that were very hard for me.

As being introverted, like, they wanted me to talk on, like, the radio. And I was like, for whatever reason, that was one thing that was, like, terrified. And it took me a long time just to come over that, like, fear of just, like, keying up the radio. Knowing that everyone's listening me at that moment,

it was, I don't know, something mentally where I was just like, I was terrified of it, but once you do it a few times, it comes like, it's pretty easy. Now, is there a big background process when you were applying to become a cop? Yeah. Depending on what agency you'll go through, typically it's a, you know, like some type of physical training, a written test, an interview. If you make it through those, you'll go through like an admin interview. Some departments offer like a voice stress or a polygraph test.

past that the state requires that you do like a psychological exam like a physical like your entire body physical I think that's it pretty much like once you get to like the the psych and the actual like medical exam you're pretty much in and you had to disclose your issue in the beginning of the process every time it's the yeah it's right there on the front of the application did it ever make you feel like you didn't want to disclose it because of what the situation was yeah I mean, it's, it was, I mean, it's still looking back. It's still disappointing that I got myself in that situation.

So yeah, it's not like a proud moment of mine and not knowing who's looking at that. I'm like, are they even going to give me a call to say, hey, we're testing on this date, especially how like soon, I mean, I gave it maybe six months and then I went back to applying. So, you know, I knew that that was going to hinder me. And it was, I don't know, disheartening, I guess. Did you continue to drink while you worked at the bar? No. I stopped drinking for a long time. And then, I don't know, just like later on, socially I'd drink,

but nothing like I was when I was 22. Do you think you had a drinking issue at 22, or do you think it was just a one-time? I mean, I don't know what a 22 a drinking issue is. I mean, like, I don't know. There's no way I could drink right now and be functioning, like the way I did when I was in college. but yeah I mean I mean I don't I wasn't drinking every day but when I did drink it was

probably to to the excess when I was in college and maybe one day a week maybe one day every other week or something like that was the training and the whole application process what you expected it to be it was um it was actually a little more intense for me I never knew going into like interviews like I always thought interviews were one-on-one everything you look at, and I didn't do a lot of research. When you go to a law enforcement interview, it's a panel interview, so you're going to have, like, three or five, like, important people at the police department sitting across from you, and that was very, that was, it's still, like, if you put me in that

interview, it'd still be intimidating to me. Have you been on panel interviews in your career? On the opposite side? Yeah. Yes. What's that perspective like? I show a lot of leniency to young officers applying, because I know, like, you know, we ask a lot of questions, kind of like scenario-based questions.

like life experience type questions. And if you're 20, 21, you really don't have those. So as long as you're able to come in there and answer the question that pertains to the question that we asked, and you answer that confidently and comfortably, like I'll show you some, a little bit more, I guess, love for someone young that is pulling from a very short memory bank compared to a guy or a girl that's like in her 30s that has, you know, work experience that can pull from bigger, I don't know, work experience life. Where did you start when you got officially on the job? I started in patrol.

Like that's pretty consistent across the board unless you get like a sheriff's department where you was starting to jail or something like that. And that's the foot patrol or a cruiser patrol or just is that all? It's in a car. Okay, it's in a car. And that's a big city, like big area that they stick you in when you first start or is it like certain sectors that they put you in? Yeah. They break down. Our city's broken down in three different like districts we call them.

And then you always have it. It's like two cars per district. and then you'll have some like citywide cars. Usually like a couple supervisors. And you always are paired with someone when your first past training? No. So once you get out of your FTO, you'll have like an observation phase where like your training officer will follow you basically

and make sure like you're doing everything right. But three months after that, you're pretty much on your own. I mean, sure you'll have guidance when you need it, but they look at you like you're pretty much responsible for whatever happens. Do you think that's enough time? I mean, I don't think that's enough time at all, but I don't know the right answer. I think that as a cop you probably don't, and I'll, for me, learn, you know, continue to learning three to five years on the job is like when you start to get in that comfort zone of like knowing everything you can and can't do. I mean, you look at laws like it's, it's like the big, it's like the size of a Bible.

Like, you know what I mean? So like to know all of those and like you get put in situations, you know, especially young, like daily that you're like, oh shit, we didn't. cover this because it's you're dealing with humans and everything's different so um i mean i don't know uh you know six months of training roughly maybe eight months i i don't think that that i think that gives you a good foundation but i think you got to continue learning um and have good guidance at least in your department or you're going to be in a rough spot yeah i can't imagine being thrown out there after three months and having to learn all of the laws and the procedures and everything i feel like there's got to be a high rate of mistakes being made, maybe not damaging mistakes, but just

like, you know, harmless mistakes. Yeah. I mean, you learn more from your mistakes than you do for doing things the right way, which isn't necessarily the best way, but you get three months of a one-on-one field trainer, and then you have the academy. So you're looking at maybe six months roughly on the low end, maybe eight months. But yeah, I mean, I think in order to, I don't know, you can't give them five years of training because things wouldn't work effectively that way. But if you could give me three to five years of training, I think then you'll have, you know, amazing next 15 or 20 years of your career. Just I don't know how effective that would really work.

Now you're 18 years on the force now? Yeah, almost. Do you feel like you've learned everything? No, I feel like I learn every day. There's, you know, like I continue to learn. I continue, like, with law enforcement, it's a, it's, you're dealing with a human, another human. So, like, things are always going to be different. You know what I'm saying?

Like, sure, the laws are the laws, but interacting with humans that we do on a daily basis, there's no two humans that are like. So you're dealing with different situations, different emotions every day. And it's just, it's something that is always evolving and you're always learning. And when it comes to case law, every year we get case law that either changes or updates and things that you have to do differently. So, I mean, there's no way that you could, you can be like, yeah, you know, after 10 years, I feel super comfortable because things just.

are always evolving and always changing. What were some challenges you faced those first couple months on patrol? Comfortability. Like not being comfortable knowing what to do in a lot of situations. The way to communicate to people. I think the one downfall to a lot of police academies is they train you for worst-case scenarios. And worst-case scenarios happen a very, you know, small amount of times. while doing that, we're kind of imprinting our young officers in the way of like,

it's always going to be like a fight or an argument or things along those lines. So I feel like as cops, we kind of come out of the police academy, very robotic, and we're not as human as we should be. So communication, if you realize you're doing that because I was kind of that way, and you have to realize like, well, if I could just talk to these people, I can resolve a lot of issues than being so robotic and being more empathetic and understanding in situations. And I think that that's one thing that I had to learn as time went on.

It took me a few years, but I think I figured it out a little bit. Does the department teach you how to handle the weight of the power that the job gives you? Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of that where the understanding about taking away people's freedoms and make sure you're doing things right and correctly, like there's not many positions besides maybe a judge or maybe a prosecutor that has months to look at a case to decide, yeah, you're going to go to jail or not, where a cop has to make decisions sometimes in the matter of seconds, whether I'm putting handcuffs on you or I'm not.

And that's pretty much hammered hold. And like, you know, this is one job that you make split-second decisions to take away someone's freedom. You've got to be right. Now, when you're in that training stage or even on patrol as a new officer, a new rookie officer, are there a lot of conflicting lessons being taught by some of the higher-ups, like some of the older people on the force? Maybe they're getting ready to retire. So I had a good department. I hear other stories like that.

but me personally, I never really did. We had a lot of good guidance. A lot of, you know, my department's always been pretty good when it comes to those types of things. And they're not, not whether they talk behind the scenes, like if I was to tell you to do something and this officer disagreed, but I'm a young officer, they're not going to sit there and say it in front of me. But I don't know what took place behind closed doors when it came to those situations. But there was not, there wasn't a lot of that in my department. Once you started patrol, did you know what you wanted to grow into as your time?

and the force went on. Yeah, when I went to the Police Academy, there was this three-hour block that I had no idea what it was, but it's called criminal addiction. It's basically like intercepting contraband on the highways from like point A to point B. And out of 18 weeks,

that was the thing that I was like the most interested. Like, you know, the academy gets very monotonous and those types of things, and I was hooked. So as soon as I came out of the police academy, I was like, that's what I wanted to do. Do you think the drug aspect had that appeal to you because of your mom's situation? Yeah, yeah.

Not only my mom's. I've, not only my mom's, but I have several family members that are, you know, have been affected by addiction and lots of friends. So it just hits me a little bit different. I think that that's not like a woes me type story. It's just, I mean, it's the facts. I mean, society has a huge addiction problem. But yeah, like if I could make a difference.

And then I saw the aspect of like these guys finding kilos. And I was like, oh, shit, if I could find a kilo instead of finding a gram at a time, Like, maybe I will have an impact on, you know, someone's mom that decides not to or can't find narcotics at that time. And it just changed, you know, the outlook of that kid's life maybe. And is that something you have to become a detective for or is that just as a normal patrol officer? I mean, you can always be proactive as a normal cop. That's what's great about my department. You could do as much as you want or as long as you're just taking your calls for service, they're pretty happy with you, you know.

And we have a nice mix of guys that want to go up via proactive and then, you know, guys that take the calls for service and those types of things. But as far as like working some type of like interstate interdiction assignment, there's some, you know, part-time state police types of things and those types of things where you probably have to pair up with another agency or another jurisdiction where you could work more of the highway, I guess. What do you think was the first real lesson you had to learn on the job? how to communicate to people. I think me personally just being introverted, it was, you know, I'm 25 years old and I'm going to houses where people have been married for 25 years and I'm,

I looked young for 25 and now I'm like, I don't have a wife, I don't have kids, and I'm trying to help you in your marriage and like, you know, like, I have no life experience in that situation. So it was, that was really hard for me. I'm looking at these individuals, like my parents. And I'm like, I can't, you know,

like, it was hard for me to, in those domestic situations to communicate effectively and to help them out and guide them in those situations. Do you think that people, suspects, people that are, you know, facing arrest, respond negatively to a younger cop versus an older cop? I think it's all your approach. I think if you can you can walk up and you can have a conversation and be understanding and empathetic and you're not negative and authoritative at first, I think that goes a long way. How do you not get taken advantage of in those situations as a younger cop? I guess being, you know, a little, like, I guess streetwise a little bit.

I don't know how to word it, but, you know, like understanding how people can take advantage of you. And I think if you show up and you just have a good presence about yourself, like you look like you fit the part, but then you can communicate and be empathetic and understanding and those types of things, I think it goes a long way. If you show up and you're like, you know, firms falling out and those types of things, I think that's when you start to get taken advantage of. But if you come there and you, you know, you look like you're in shape. you're taking care of, but then you're talking very intelligently to individuals and you're listening to them to them communicate and you're giving them the opportunity to vent, I think it goes a long way. And I feel like respect is just a big thing too.

I guess that, yeah, respect kind of sums that all up. Yeah, I mean, I think that's comparable to a lot of correctional officers when you see a younger correctional officer on the job, how they handle themselves in those first, you know, meetings with the inmate are crucial. Yeah. I, yeah. I think working. in some type of jail or prison is something that's even more challenging than law enforcement just because you're kind of stuck in there for eight or 12 hours. I might have to go interact with someone for an hour. And even if we don't see eye to eye, I don't have to interact with you again, more than likely. Where you're stuck in prison and there's an inmate and a guard that

butts heads, like, you're going to see him every day. So that's a rough situation. So if you get off on the wrong foot, yeah, that'd be rough for me as a prison guard in a jail. you wish you had some previous type of law enforcement training, maybe in corrections or just anywhere before you started as an officer? I don't know about corrections. Corrections would be challenging for me to be locked up for eight or 12 hours a day. I'm not going to lie. I do wish that maybe I had some more like, I don't know, like life experience, but I don't know how you get life experience without age and those types of things. But I think falling into my department and having the good trainers that I had, it helped me out. And I didn't get stuck in, like, doing

bad, like, not bad things, like bad, I don't know, like bad tactics or those types of things. You know, if you go into a department and they don't teach, like, good tactics and those types of things, and then you go to a department that is squared away, it's harder to correct your behavior than learning with a blank slate. So I'm happy that I had, you know, good trainers. When you see some of these news articles, news stories of bad behavior from police officers, Do you sum that up to bad training when they first got on the job? I mean, there's bad people in every profession. I think when you start to look at some of the videos, it could be bad tactics.

It could be, you know, just poor training or lack of understanding of the law. But then there's some, you know, I mean, I still, I'll stand by a very small percent of cops. Wishing you could be there live for the big game. soaking up the atmosphere of the crowd but too often life gets busy or the price hold you back Priceline is here to help you make it happen with millions of deals on flights

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Are doing things maliciously. what was the typical day of patrol like for you um typically i mean you know it's something that you got to answer your calls for service but as i work i'm just trying to be as proactive as possible uh i feel that you owe society the taxpayers um an honest day of work so if i can't look at myself and be like all right i took this call now i'm going to sit here for an hour i can't do it i have to You know, my goal is to, you know, keep society and my city safe and prevent bad, bad people, I guess, from doing things to innocent civilians. Do you think police present makes it so those bad situations doesn't happen? Like, is it a deterrence?

I think so. And I think if, you know, if your agency is known for being, like, proactive, like, you know, you're out there stopping cars and those types of things, if people are coming in your city to commit crimes, but then they see that, you know, there's multiple traffic stops taking place. It might deter them compared to a city that, you know, they drive through and there's no one out there doing it. So I do think just the actual presence of law enforcement in a community and being seen goes a long way. Is the quota thing real? No, never. It's against the law. Like on every aspect of it, I know some of your guys and girls that have been on here talk about, like, quotas at certain times of the month.

Absolutely not. There's no quota. at least in Indiana there's no like it's against the law like you can't have it because then what you're doing is you're putting cops in a bad situation like if I haven't wrote 30 tickets this month I'm going crappy tickets that you know what I'm saying like oh I'm going to go write everyone for like going one over or something I don't know I just think that I don't know where that comes from it's the craziest thing I've ever heard though I feel like some civilians will get upset like depending on the time of day and they feel like they were maybe pulled over for something a couple miles over the speed limit or something something that seems kind of silly on the onset. And maybe that's where they get the idea of it being a quota that the cop was just trying to get another ticket out of the way or something like that. So there is overtime like initiatives and grants where like, you know, it's like OWI initiative seatbelt grants, those types of things where it's a public safety aspect of it where cops will get paid overtime to simply go focus on that aspect of it. So maybe in those types of situations, you know, where they're like, oh, I'm focusing on speeders because that's what this grant or initiative is. talking about maybe i i don't know but yeah there's there's definitely never been any quotas but it's

not like you're at the morning meeting roll call and they're like you got to have 10 arrests today or you're done absolutely not never um i you know i i think that there's expectations like for for my agency if you want to do something in the specialty aspect or along those lines uh you have to show that the initiative to go out there and be willing to you know self-motivated and do it on your own but as far as like if you don't do it there's no ramifications you know this is actually a great topic with an active police officer

what are some of the myths about policing that people just get you know terribly wrong oh I don't know I'm trying to think the quota was one that you know I hear multiple times on your podcast but I'm just trying to think of some other myths

I'm sure you have some what about those DWI ones people say that there's certain ways you can, I guess, like evade a DWI. Like a penny under a tongue or something like that? I haven't heard that, but now I'm hearing things,

I guess it's a law here that they can't breathalize you at the actual car. They have to take you back to the station. Is that a thing? So when it comes to PBT, PBT is a gauge, but it's not something that's used in court.

Like, maybe you can use, but it doesn't hold weight in court. You have to actually go to a, like, a calibrated machine at the police stuff. department in order to get a certified breath test. And I think the PBT, I mean, that's the truth. I mean, it's a gauge. So we'll put you through the field sobriety, the eyes and the walks and all that

stuff. And if you do fail that, the PBT is a gauge to see. And the way I was taught, it was like a gauge to see if you're impaired based on alcohol or maybe something else. But then in order to, you know, have a certified breath test when it comes to court purposes, you need the actual data master machine. So the field sobriety test don't matter until you have the actual machine test? No, the field sobriety is, is, do matter. The PBT, though, you can put it in your report, but it doesn't hold the weight that an actual like certified data master is, which is the machine at the police department.

But what if you say they failed the field sobriety test and then never take any type of other test. Do you think that's enough to stand on its own? You just have to be able to testify at court as an officer because we have the lowest standard is basically you failed all field sobriety and we can charge you with that. Once we start to get like alcohol

or drugs involved, then those are kind of like enhancers or extra charges. Yeah, I'd heard, like I've seen TikToks from like these former cops or lawyers that tell you like they give you all these tips on what to do if you've been pulled over for a DWI. I was just curious if any

of those tactics ever work? I don't know. I don't think, like, to circumvent the system, I don't think it's possible. Like, those tests have been established for a long period of time, especially, like, with your eyes. Like, that's something completely uncontrollable that you cannot control. So if I was to, you know, put you through the field sobriety test with your eyes and you're impaired, before being a cop, I had no idea what it was. and it is, you can't control it.

There's no way you can beat that, I don't think. So you can tell right away with someone? Pretty much. That's, for us, we always do eyes first before we do like, you know, the walk and turn and the, that type of thing. But based on the eyes, once you have experience in it, you can pretty much gauge at whether they are, whether they aren't. Is it the same for marijuana use now that it's become more prevalent in today's world? So my state is still 100% illegal. But I don't know.

I don't think you'll get the same. I think with the eyes, it's mainly alcohol, maybe some of other, like, depressants. But, I mean, I think I don't know about the marijuana aspect of it with your eyes. Now, as a cop, if it was legal in your state, would you be able to use it? Or no, because it's federally illegal? The only state that I know that cops are allowed to use marijuana is New Jersey. Even every other state that has recreational or medical. New Jersey is the only one that has allowed their cops to use it.

Do you believe in that? I so I took an oath for you know like my political leaves might be a little bit different but when it comes

to marijuana do I think marijuana is as harmful as it's been made out over generationally? No. Do I think that there is medical benefits

based on some stuff that you know I've done my own research and you know maybe friends that live in the other state that have had some you know military poor military experience some going through cancer that you know

and I do think that there's a benefit there when I'm looking at it I think that they're in order to make it effectively across this country you have to eliminate the black market marijuana and I don't know how you do that effectively if you look at it there's still like black market

tobacco black market alcohol so I think it's a challenge for this country to figure out what the right decision is because no matter what even if you legalize it across country there'll still be a black market and there'll still be people that are doing it to circumvent tax is because the government's not going to give up their tax money.

So I don't know. I don't know what the right answer is. But I do think that there's some medical benefits to it for sure. Do you think all states should have the same consistent laws? When it comes to that type of stuff, yes. It would make, I think it would make all cops jobs a little bit easier. And I think it would make all civilians that like, all right, so you're coming, I don't know, out of New Jersey. And you have recreational weed and you're driving to, I don't know, Nebraska.

And you come through Indiana. have it, well, like, theoretically, in Indiana, we can arrest you for it, no matter what, if you have a medical card or not. So I think that, you know, that the confusion based on the individual that has the marijuana, I mean, I think that there would be a lot more clarifying if that was the case. Do you see that often in your line of work that there's someone say, like, I see with gun permits, it's kind of different in every state. And even fireworks, I see that a lot too. do you find that people when they're traveling they think that they're following the law they're outstanding citizens and then come to find out they're not in that state yeah no it it happens often

um indiana is a constitutional carry gun uh so pretty much like like everyone has guns everyone has fireworks it's just the marijuana thing is uh they're like no marijuana whatsoever we'll give you guns and fireworks no weed why do you think that is we couldn't even buy alcohol on sundays in my state until the Indianapolis hosted the Super Bowl and the only reason we were able to get alcohol on Sundays is because basically the NFL didn't know that that was the law and they were getting ready to pull out

so they had like an emergency meeting and passed a law that we could buy booze on Sundays to keep the Super Bowl there. Wait, they changed the whole law just for the Super Bowl? Well, now it's that like across the board but yeah, like that was the main push because they had invested so much money in the downtown Indianapolis area

for the Super Bowl to come in And then they were like, you have to have alcohol on Sundays. And they're like, so they literally like circumvented change the law. So you couldn't even serve it at a restaurant on a Sunday? Yeah, there were stipulations with that. But you couldn't, you couldn't go to like a liquor store. And I don't know if you guys have, but like carry out from some bars and restaurants. You couldn't have that either on Sundays.

When there are breaking news stories about cops doing bad things in the world, how does it affect your job if it does at all? So for the area that I work, they're super pro law enforcement. And when times are bad, it's the craziest thing because for me personally, I get more people thanking me for my service. If times are good and there's not a lot of stuff in the news, it's like just another cop. But once something bad does happen, there's a lot more of, I guess, the people in my community that will, you know, thank us and those types of things. Why do you think people are so quick to compare one bad apple to everyone else? Because people can technically do that with anything, you know, if someone makes a mistake at a job or in school or anything, but people don't normally do that. They do it specifically with cops.

I don't know. So one of my buddies came up with that story, and I like to use it because I could never come up with myself. And he says basically, like, cops are like the dad of society. And dads theoretically don't get in trouble. But if your dad was speeding and he gets pulled over and all the kids are in the car, they're all like, oh, heck out. So now it's like something that's like polarizing almost. And I'm probably not describing that well, but I think that that's what it is. Like dad's supposed to be held up to like this standard of like, oh, I don't get in trouble.

I don't do this. Cops are the same way. And you looked across the board no matter what. So all dads are looked at the same level. You know, something along those lines. I don't know. Like a parental figure, but for the government, I guess. And once that parental figure gets in trouble, since we all wear the same uniform and doing the same type of work,

we're all the same, I guess. I don't know. How does your department build good rapport with the community? We have, they've done it for years before even like all the negativity started coming out. We, uh, we have cops in all of our schools that have a great community or, you know, relationship with them. Uh, we also do some like, um, sports things like once a week where, um, our PD has a gym in it. So like, we build that, that, that, or we foster that relationship at a, at a young age where,

um, cops are in there basically like playing basketball with the kids and stuff and it's not to take pictures and be like, oh, look, not fake stuff. This has been going on for years. And basically the cops don't even have to, they're just there to be with the kids. The kids are playing dodgeball and basketball and stuff, especially when the weather's crappy. There's a bunch of kids in there. And I think that helps.

Building a bond with the youth transitions well to community aspect. Are you seeing kids being afraid of cops today based on maybe their family's views or just how other friends are teaching them about cops? I feel like it's gone away. So like I feel like for a while there it was, like you could kind of see that. But I feel like, I don't know, maybe the past three, four years or so. I feel like it's kind of gone away. It was pretty bad.

But I don't know. I think that a lot of that comes to, you know, like, you know, when a cop walks into like a store or something, everyone's like, oh, I didn't do it. Or if the kid's there is like, he's here to arrest the kid. Like, that's the worst image that you could have. to give to your kids that, like, cops just show up and they arrest kids. Like, so I don't know. I don't know if that's the reason or what, but I feel like now it's, it's not as polarizing right now for whatever reason in law enforcement.

And I don't see a lot of kids that are actually afraid. For a while there, you're seeing, like, very young, like 16, 17-year-old kids driving that were, like, petrified. Like, they would get stopped and they're, like, shaking. It's not, like, ticket-wise. It was something different that I didn't see for, like, For my entire career besides like a two-year span, it was very strange. How do you make someone feel comfortable during a stop like that, traffic stop? I try to be understanding and empathetic in human as possible and put them at ease, whatever the situation is.

I'm soft-spoken as is, and I try not to be authoritative. I explain the reason that I'm stopping them in great detail. Like if I stopped you and you don't understand why I stopped you, I'm going to recite to the best of my ability, the, you know, whatever traffic infraction you committed, how you can correct that. And oftentimes, if it's just something minor that I have, you know, that I stopped you for, I don't give a lot of tickets. I'd rather you just correct your behavior and be on with that. And then, you know, I try to put them at ease by just explaining like, this is what you did wrong. This is why it's important that you did this wrong. And if your license is a good, man, I'll just give you a warning or, you know,

you'll be on your way. So. Now, from the other perspective, how do you feel approaching cars, especially with things that have happened in the world? again, man, if I can see, I don't know, if you can see into the car, I think that, you know, you kind of put you down, like, people have tinted windows. Those are kind of challenging, especially at night, those types of things because you can't really see what's going on and what's taking place. So those are always, but in the grand scheme of things, if I can't see and I'm just going to have you step out, then, you know, then I can kind of see what you're doing. But again, I think your approach and your demeanor goes a long way. How hard do you think it is for a cop to leave their personal feelings about situations at the door and not let it affect their job? Say they're going through a divorce or something in their life and they care that to work. That could have a big effect throughout the day how they treat people, even on a traffic stop. We've all gotten that really grumpy cop if we've been pulled over sometimes, you know, and you could tell they're having a bad day and they're kind of taking it out on you.

Yeah, I mean, before I was a cop, I, again, I wasn't a saint. I got tickets and there was guys that were nice and there were guys that were jerks. So like I understand. And I think having a stable, my wife's amazing. So like having a stable at home, I've never had to think about like,

I'm having a bad day at home now coming to work. I know a lot of guys like, um, talk about like leaving it at the door and those types of things. And I think if you work with a good group of people, maybe like the same people that you're always around or whatever, and they can kind of read that. behavior with you like okay he's you know whatever reason and they can kind of talk you out of that

that negative mindset um not only for those types of interactions but if i'm going into situations and i'm already like thinking about a million different things like i'm having family problems at home or those types of things um you're kind of off your game so if someone wants to do something that nefarious to you it's you're putting yourself your own self at a disadvantage were you able to end up joining that unit you wanted to join yeah how long to take you into your career five years And that's about standard time? I don't know about standard. Right now in law enforcement, there's a huge turnover.

People aren't staying. Like, when I first started, people were staying 32, 35 years. You're not seeing that anymore. You're seeing guys and girls doing maybe 20, 25 and getting out. So I think that that five year, a lot of times that's what the specialty thing was. When I got hired, it's like, got to do five years in patrol. Then you can go to specialties and those things. That's kind of lowered.

It's maybe two or three now. which based on the turnover it makes sense but like me I wasn't comfortable at three years on the job I still had so much more to learn in patrol before I could go and get into like a special you know I'm sure that there's many guys and girls out there that way more intelligent me that can pick up things a lot faster but yeah it's it's interesting right now

there's a lot of turnover and there's a lot of old knowledge that's being lost and not being transitioned down why do you think there's so many hiring issues in the police world right now I see these billboards and even the ads on Facebook that they're putting out. Whereas a few years ago there used to be wait lists and now it's, you know, they've kind of up the dollar amounts, the bonuses, the packages, everything like that to recruit people in. I think it's the, I mean, I feel like law enforcement when I was growing up was glorified. Like, you know, it was put on a pedestal like it was something prestigious to get into. And then over the past, I don't know, maybe 20 years or so, we stopped.

glorifying the good cops and all we focused on is the negativity. And if I was an 18 year old or 21 year old kid trying to get in law enforcement, we don't make that much money. So why would I want to go into a profession? If I look at the media and it says everything's negative, why would I want to go into a profession that I'm not going to make that much money, even though it's a noble thing and cops are some of the most selfless people in the world. But if I was trying to pick a career path at that age, I don't think I would necessarily pick that. I also think that there's some things, this might give me, but like some people do things, cops specifically on social media, like dancing TikTok videos and stuff.

Like, I know that their mind probably in the right spot that like they're trying to like humanize the badge, but it gives a false perception what the job is. And I feel like those two things, both ends of it, the negativity and then the false perception of what the job is, is what deters a lot of cops from the good candidates that would be good cops from getting in the profession. Yeah, cops on social media. I mean, COVID exploded these types of TikTok specifically. They have the dogs or they're doing the dance videos in the car or they're just talking about their day. Is that common?

Is that allowed to do that? Or are they just not allowed to show what department they're in? Because there's millions and millions of views on a lot of these cops. I think, I mean, it depends on your department policy. A lot of it is, though, I mean, if you're not showing department-type issue things or, you know, what department with and you're talking in generalities or doing those types of things, you're probably covered in most rules and regs or, you know, department policies. But yeah, like, it just, I think that that's attracting the wrong person.

Some of those videos where if you're doing it on duty and it's nothing productive, you know, you're not in there talking about case law and what you can and can't do in situations or or those types of things and you're giving a false perception what the job is and you're doing it on duty not only does it make your citizens like well how are you able to make these videos when theoretically like taxpayer money is going to you to make that video i just think you know it's just it's a bad look if it's something that you're doing on duty and it's not informative i think doing it on duty overall is is not the most intelligent thing to do but if you're using department equipment and making videos that aren't informative i don't know it's it's something that's a very

slippery slope in my mind and um i don't think that you have to to do it to draw attention if you want to make the profession better and to glorify the possession of a profession i don't think that you have to um dance or whatever crazy stuff you do in uniform on on ticot and and most um are salaried so they are technically doing it on the clock right yeah that's what i'm saying like if you're doing it if you're doing it on duty like it i just feel like that is an awful perception to give the the community that you work for how do you feel about when you respond to a scene, we see this more than ever. Everyone's immediately pulling out their phones.

I don't mind it. I think the one thing that I wish you could get is a more of a 360 view, honestly. So we have body cams now and everything, but you're getting face-to-face. You can't see everything else. So I wish we could get, I mean, ideally, if everyone had a drone above you, you could see so much. You know, like ideally, but I think that, I think video cameras are a great thing. but I do feel that there are certain individuals that will record things and edit things out to just the worst part of the situation and not what led up to it or not, you know, what ended. It's just that one moment in time and it's not necessarily factual what actually took place.

But I love cameras, I think. So remind me again, why didn't you just run a truck and move yourself? Well, been there, done that. Just once wound up with a squashed couch, a stiff neck, and my brother ghosting me for six months. I get it. I'm staring in a mountain of boxes and suddenly realize banaging this move is my entire life. That's why we moved with Mayflower. They handled everything. The packing, loading, timing, no guessing, no chaos, no trips to the chiropractor. But isn't hiring a mover kind of pricey? Not when you factor in truck rental, gas, time off work, and your stuff getting messed up. With Mayflower, we had a move coordinator and actual professionals. I slept the night before moving day. Sleeping before a move? Sounds very grown up.

Right? It felt like, okay, we've got this. So doing it yourself may be simple in theory, but Mayflower is common reality. Is that it? Exactly. Moving? Trust the people who've been doing it for generations every step of the way. Get a free quote at mayflower.com. They hold not only us accountable, but they hold society accountable as well. Yeah, I see that a lot in the traffic stop videos where you're only seeing, normally the officer attacking the person. in the car, but you didn't see the first part of what that person did to the officer.

Like what led up to, yeah. Exactly. And granted, there are probably some situations that the officer is in the wrong, but I think there's a good amount of situations where the person in the car did something to instigate that too. And some departments are really good at that. If someone was to make that video and then they put it out there and you see like the last 30 seconds of it, I know a lot of departments will be like, no, no, no, and immediately release because if you hold on to that, like, that narrative leads. Whatever gets out there first is a lot of people would see that first, and that's what they think is the actual facts. But a lot of departments have, when those situations occur, then they put out the whole incident, and you can see that it was edited for, you know, whatever social, to make cops look back on social media or whatever it was.

Do you think it's good that police departments are now using social media more to do things like that? I see like the chiefs are doing like press conferences on social media. They're being really interactive and they're just putting out information that they normally wouldn't have put out, say, 10 years. ago. I think it's needed because you have to be transparent and we've always had to be transparent, but now with society and cameras everywhere, I think that transparency has to come from within. If you're letting individuals lead with videos and not necessarily completely factual information, and as a department, you're not doing anything to combat that and actually give the truth and the facts out, I think you're doing not only your community, but your guys and girls at your department of disservice.

How did your days change when you left patrol to join the new unit? It was more focused on just being proactive, you know, so I didn't have to answer a lot of calls for service and those types of things. I have a little bit more of a flexible schedule so I can work depending on, you know, what time everyone is out there in different hours and those types of things. It's not such a regimented, like, whatever your schedule, 4-2 or whatever schedule you do work, it's not that regimented. We can kind of pick and choose as long as we get our hours in that week, then we're good. And that's the role you're currently in now? Yep. Do you ever miss patrol?

I do. I miss the... So when it comes to, you know, working smaller in its units, you don't have as big of, like, camaraderie with everyone. So I do miss that aspect of it. I do miss the aspect of, like, the... It's weird as it sounds. Like the unknown. Like, you know, you're getting dispatched to the specific calls and those types of things.

And maybe, you know, like the exciting calls for a cop. Like, I don't know. It sounds weird, but like robberies and those types of things. Like, you know, those are where, like, those are fun to, I guess, go to or to resolve. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, you're going to a robbery call. Like, I miss that aspect of it now. But I love the position I'm in.

What would you say is the number one call that's reported in? out of everything. It's probably three. I'd say accidents, retail theft, and domestics in some fashion. Those are probably the most common that cops deal with on a daily basis. I bet you've seen a big evolution in retail theft since first joining the force and now to present day. You see an interesting where it would change from, you know, individuals like kids and stuff stealing. Like, you know, well, let's say 18 to 21 stealing.

You know, they just don't have the finances or whatever. it may be, or individual stealing to now, like, the amount of organization, like, organized retail theft is like a billion-dollar industry plus. And to see how organized and how well these organizations do at the retail theft game, it's insane to me. And now it's also, I feel like even harder, though, to pull off because you have the high-tech security and AI and everything. They circumvent that. They circumvent the stuff pretty well.

pretty fast. So as fast as like, you know, your technology is to prevent people from stealing, like, your electronics and those type of things, I don't know how, like, you know, these organized retail theft crimes are like, like, they are just up to date. So do you feel like you're seeing less of just the classic walk-in, walk-out with some shirts or electronic and more like a sophisticated actual ring or scheme? Yeah, it depends on, I mean, it depends on the store, but yeah, like, you know, if you're getting, going to like a target or Walmart, it's probably like, you're, like, you're talked picked up a few things and just walking out with it if you're looking at like electronic stores and those types of things a little bit higher end things that can be sold on the black

market maybe even like colognes and perfumes from like i don't i guess have like alta out here or whatever yeah like those like those you see you know those are probably more of an organized group i remember in middle school the things to steal would either be like the gum or the candy bar or like the colognes that were always in like the cvs or walgreens like lockbox or whatever really that's what people like that the curve bottles and stuff like that like the those little colognes, that would be the thing to steal. They had lock boxes back then? Yeah, they had like the platt.

A lot of the times they weren't even locked, but they would be in like the aisle of the cologne. And if you, you would always check and see if they're open, people would steal it. I don't know. It's just kids being kids. No, no, yeah, for sure. I get it. So what's the typical day like for you now?

Ah, I mean, so I, there's multiple different U.S. routes and highways that I can work, and we kind of just, you know, we'll pick one road for a week and we kind of go work that. a lot of it is, you know, kind of using the human behavior, trying to, you know, help identify vehicles. And ultimately, like, our goal is to intercept contraband that's going from point A to point B. If you look at it in any avenue of illegal contraband, but in the dope game, eventually dope's got to touch the road at some point.

You know what I'm saying? So, like, even if it was mail to you and then you're going to sell it, that person isn't going to come pick it up from you or something along those lines. So that's a lot of what we're doing is just trying to intercept that contraband and prevent it from getting into our communities. Now, are these tips that you have coming in or are these just all fresh stakeouts every day and you're looking to see or looking to find these cars transporting it? I mean, the majority of it is just cold stops where we're trying to just go out there and be proactive and find it. Occasionally working with different agencies and those types of things, we'll get some tips.

But overall, it's just cold stops. That's a, I don't know, like a misnomer that I hear people talk about where it's like, oh, like I'll see, you know, people get seizures and they'll posted, like the departments will post in things. And they're like, oh, he had a tip and those types of things. The likelihood that that's taking place is very slim. What's the oddest thing you've seen someone transport? Wasn't my stop, but one of our guys stopped a guy that was moving like ivory. And we didn't know what it was. And it was just, it was kind of a cluster.

but yeah it was like I don't know what it ended up being but I think it was determined like it was like either fake ivory he was trying to sell it was real or something along those lines we come across I came across a guy

me personally that had shipped a bunch of like supposedly high end jackets to New Jersey he was taking him somewhere else and they were like all counterfeit but it was like a million dollars worth of counterfeit merchandise

and those types of things those are some of the weirdest ones because they go through such extents to commit a crime when if they took that much effort and put it in something legitimate they'd probably be millionaires but it's just interesting so a stop like that was that something where you expected it to be drugs because he was exhibiting a certain type of behavior and it turns out to be something entirely different yeah i can't i mean me personally as a cop i can't tell you where you're going

in a car i can just say that like and if we stop you based on some contributing factors of your human behavior and then you commit an infraction it could be anything that you have a suspended license and you've never been in trouble and you're freaking out about it or it could be something, you know, that you just committed a murder or something along those lines. It could be anything in between there. But once you start to have that conversation and talk to them, you kind of determine, you know, like, all right, he's, there's something that's out of place here. Maybe they're lying about their time frame where they're going. It's crazy what nerves and stress do because people will tell me that they're going to one location and they're coming from the, like the complete opposite direction or, or I'm going to this location from this city and it's completely wrong.

Like, there's no way you should be here. So you know that there's something in play, but you really can't determine what's necessarily in the vehicle. How do you feel about the people that are kind of like know-it-alls with the law that are innocent, like they're not doing anything wrong, but they will say you can't search a car, you can't do this, you can't do that just based on their rights and they don't want to be cooperative? That's their rights. I mean, you know, like when I stop a car, I'm not, I try to be very approachable and, you know, I want them to engage me and have a conversation.

But if they say I'm not talking, there's nothing, I can't force them to have a conversation. and that's it right. I don't hold animosity or anger or anything like that. Now, once you stop these cars and there does turn out to be product or drugs or anything, any type of contraband, what happens after that? I usually, you know, like it gets turned over to investigators, but usually I try to have them. I mean, people are going to hate this, but I want them to snitch. Like, you know what I mean? Like, the people that are transporting the narcotics typically aren't going to be the ones.

We always want the bigger fish. You know what I'm saying? So, you know, that's ultimately my goal is to catch a bigger fish than the one I caught. And I know some people on her will probably completely disagree with me, but it's ironic. The more dope you catch on people, the more likely they are to talk from my experience, personally. So if I catch you with a lot, there's a higher likelihood that I feel that you will snitch on someone compared to someone that might be, have a half. have some user amount, just from my experience. How often are you seeing these individuals fold,

and how quick do they fold? It takes a minute to fold. Like, yeah, I think, I think it does take some time, but once the investigator gets there, and he kind of explains, like, you know, you got caught with this, you're looking at, like, this amount of time, and, you know, you're looking at, like, if I do get convicted,

I'm getting, like, 20 years, or I could just tell them where I got this, Like, that's, that's usually the time when the realization comes in. When I stop them, I'm just this, like, dumb cop in a uniform. But when, you know, someone shows up that's an undercover, it carries a little more weight. And this is all unfolding on the side of the highway? Sometimes. Sometimes they'll come in, you know, it just depends on what the investigator wants.

Sometimes we'll bring them in and then they'll talk to him. Sometimes if they're out and about, then they'll just come to the scene. Can you usually tell when someone's transporting something once you pull them over? I can't. I have to have a conversation. So no matter, like, I, there's no way I would be, I mean, they're driving behavior, you know, maybe they're doing something criminal nature, but I couldn't tell that they're transporting something unless I started to have a conversation with them. I always get super nervous when I got pulled over it. I feel like the cops probably automatically think I'm doing something guilty. I'm just nervous because of my past, you know. Yeah, and so there is that aspect of it too. And as a cop for doing it, you just have to be able to gauge and understand like every human is different. I don't gauge you to any other human I've ever had to interact.

actions with. And a lot of times, if I stop someone that is, you know, just nervous and I explain, a lot of the fears come from the fear of the unknown. So if I, you know, tell you that you're not getting a ticket, you're just getting a warning. This is why I stopped you. And this is how you can correct your behavior. A lot of that stress kind of goes down if you're not doing anything criminal nature. If it kind of is there or it starts to elevate through the traffic stop, that's, those are the ones that I'm more interested in. But we understand, like, when we stop you initially, that there's going to be a lot of stress and anxiety. And it typically comes from, you know, the fear of the unknown. Are you nervous working traffic stops these days? I mean, I see more and more articles

of cops, state troopers getting hit on the side of the road, people not paying attention. Yeah, that's always been a fear. You just have, when I stop cars, I just make it more calculated. So I try to, you know, give myself, knowing where like the bigger shoulders are. There's not guardrails. There's not hills. Or if they do stop in a bad spot, I might go up there and be like, hey, can you just pull up there to that off ramp or whatever and have them pull over off the road? So we're not dealing with cars that They're going 70, maybe they're going 30 or something along those lines. How long does someone technically have to pull over once you like flash the lights? I mean, it all depends.

You know, coming from a city going to the highway, I was amazed at, I guess, based on like the highway noise and people really not paying attention to what's going on behind them, that there's definitely a longer delay on the highway. You know, in the city, you get lit up. You're like, no, immediately because it's ricocheting off buildings and all that stuff. You know exactly what's taking place. On the highway, especially during the day, there's a lot of people. people that don't pay that much attention. So you don't necessarily have an amount of time, I think, but if you start to, like, accelerate and weaving out of cars, like, that's problematic. But if you're just not paying attention, or if you want to find a safe spot to pull over and you

hit your hazards, most cops are going to be understanding with that situation. What do you think is the biggest change in policing from the day you started to today? Technology is ever evolving. When I first started, like, the biggest thing we had was, like, a laptop on my car, you know. Now you have cameras everywhere, even like tasers. We didn't have tasers back then. All that type of technology is ever evolving.

You have, like, license plate readers all over this country. That's, you know, like, so, like, that technology accompanied with, like, AI and the way that criminals evolved to beat us. Like, it moves so fast. And if you get stuck in, like, an era, you can't catch up. Has the police department started using AI? Not to my extent.

Not that I know of. I know that there's some like AI AI like facial recognition type stuff that's out there and those types of things where it kind of helps you filter that. There's some AI like report writing stuff that's out there. But as far as I know as a department as a whole, I don't know. Is that computer hard that's in the police car hard to use while you're driving? theoretically you can't use it while you're driving so it's only when I'm stationary but um no it's just like a normal computer okay but then like the license plate readers and whatnot that are on the car feed into that computer and pop up on screen yeah it would be like a second computer

so um because they both have to be like um VPN protected because they both have like different data that's not a lot to be shared so it has to be like I don't know whatever it is but yeah so like the license plate readers that on a car will autopopulate to like um a Surface Pro and all that is doing is taking pictures of plates. Like I don't get any other information off that. I don't get like who the owner is, what kind of car or anything. It's basically taking pictures. And then if I wanted to say run one of those plates,

then I would have to flip up my other screen and run the plate. And it just automatically picks up those pictures. Like say you're driving down the city or the street, it just automatically takes photos of cars. Yeah. There's something with the difference between the paint. So I got like one is like reflective and one's dull and vice versa, depending on the state.

And that's all it's capturing. And it'll alert you if someone has an expired license or... Mine does not. And there might be some out there. There's so many different companies out there. Mine does not do that. Mine just literally takes a picture of it. Where do you see your career going from here?

Like what's the next for you? I don't know, man. I love what I'm doing. You know, I have a dog. So that's always fun. I never want to get up with a dog. The dog is like a... He helps me on the job, but he's also like a therapeutic dog.

Almost like kind of, you know, you're having a bad day. You get to play with the dog. a little bit so that's always fun for me um i mean i i i love where i'm at i don't i don't have a lot of aspirations this was always my goal maybe eventually to do like maybe the investigation aspect of it on the other side of like dope work um but i don't know i i love i love the interdiction i love the i guess the unknown and and being able to go out there and do your own thing and and not be tied to a radio so much and answer calls for service how long do you see yourself in the department i mean you You already had 18 years on that, though.

Yeah. If you'd asked me five years ago, I'd said 20 and done. But I don't know. I still love law enforcement, and I thought that after my like 15-year mark, the next five years, maybe it'll be out of my system, but I don't know yet. I don't know. I get to travel and teach and talk to, you know, more cops around the country, and that's always fun and rejuvenating to me. So I don't know. I love law enforcement. And if I could keep spreading a positive image of cops out there and it's well received, then I might do that. What do you think the biggest misconception civilians have about cops?

That, I don't know, there's a lot, but I would say that we're all picked on in high school, that we're all dorks, like things like that. You know, like, oh, you're just getting revenge on society. I see that a lot. Or, like, that we're just mad and mean people and we're taking it out on society. That's why we became cops. that we feel like that we're like in perfect, like that we're perfect and we never make mistakes, which is the furthest thing from the truth. Like, like I just talked about my failures and, you know, it's just we've, we've kind of all,

a lot of cops have been in those situations. I mean, I've been in that situation and I understand that aspect of, of, you know, society and like you make mistakes and you, as long as you learn from your mistakes and move forward, I think that that's where a lot of misconceptions come in is that, like, we feel that we're perfect or we became cops to avenge something else that you know some wrongdoing to us or something along those lines and and for me that's the furthest thing from the truth do you think the good cops um speak out against the bad cops like if they if they witness bad behavior are they speaking out about it or are they kind of letting it slide there's nothing more that i hate than bad cops

because it gives all of us the way we're lumped together. We all look bad. And if anything along those lines as far as a bad cop, I would be the first one. I talked to people all the time and I was like, if anyone was able to catch a dirty cop like transporting narcotics, not that I'm saying they're doing it, but I would want to be the one to actually catch them doing it. What do you say that people that are very anti-police or have had a bad experience with cops and try to lump in every cop into that field? Or even if they've had issues with getting arrested and going to prison, they feel a certain way about law enforcement. If you were sitting across from them, what would you say to them?

I would love to just have a conversation of human-to-human without even knowing that I'm a cop. Let's see where that goes. If you don't know I'm a cop and I just show up and we're sitting here BSing, I would love to see where that goes. it's not the badge should not defy the person behind the badge and it sucks and again like I don't

I don't lump anyone in together like you know what I'm saying like when I go to the barbers you know some of the barbers are you know anti-cop a little bit you know but they respect me just because I've been going there forever and I'm like

when people start to lump everyone together like if you were to cut my ear and I said all barbers suck because you cut my ear then all you are the same like how is that fair to everyone else in the And they're like, oh, okay, that makes sense. I'm like, yeah. So, like, you can't look at one uniform and be like, oh, he made a mistake.

They're all bad. It just, it isn't fair. But life isn't fair. So it is what it is. But I would love to, I like to meet people, have a conversation, especially people that were anti-cop. And then let's see if they still feel that way after when I tell them I'm a cop. That would actually be an interesting, like, video to do.

Like, you go and sit down with someone without the uniform that's so anti-cop. And I bet you'd have a conversation with you and be totally. open, fine, then you reveal to them at the end, hey, I'm a cop. You should set it up, Ian. Yeah, I mean, because there's no way to tell. Mm-mm. You know, just like me, there's no way to tell I'm a criminal or, you know, I went to prison. There's so many unsuspecting people.

And we see that on the podcast all the time. Individuals you never in a million years would expect go to prison that it's revealed that they went to prison. I was just listening to one, the guy from Indiana, the old guy that looked like my grandpa, the spice guy. I don't know, you just released it. I was like, man, this dude did Fed time for this? I never would have guessed. Never in a million years. That guy and then the guy that was cooking meth that came out a couple weeks ago.

He had the glasses, orange hair. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You look like a college professor. It's so well-spoken. You just would have no idea. Yeah. Yeah, and I don't know. I think that's why I like your podcast so much because it's just it brings so many different people.

And, you know, I guess the movies in Hollywood always like put criminals and like this is what a criminal looks like. whatever and then you bring these people on that and I'm like man that's like my grandpa like you know what I'm saying it's just it's crazy to me and and as as a cop that's why you can't judge a book by its cover like criminals are coming across every sex every race every religion like everything like every gamut of thing so if anything you know like I think that you just have to be open-minded and interact with people as a one-on-one basis and not let outside influences impact you have you seen police departments over time, since you started, get more laxed about associating with people that have a felony, now that's more vocalized in the world that a lot of individuals do have

felonies? Yeah. And I think it comes a lot to do with if you made a mistake and you learned and you moved on and you've done better. Like, I think that that's where a lot of departments look at it. Like, if you're, if you made a mistake and you got in trouble but you're still living that lifestyle, I think that's where, like, departments are like, yeah, you probably shouldn't be around that, dude.

But if it's a guy that made a mistake, improved his life, and then is moving in it in the right direction, I think that departments would be a little more like, nah, okay. You know, I mean, you can, I know that there's certain departments have rules and regs about, like, hanging around with felons or whatever it may be. But if you look at our justice system and if you believe in our justice system, once they've done their time and they're out of that, that whatever that, you know, probation or whatever was left, it should be a clean slate from society. As a cop, you should look at it the same way. Yeah, that's what I think my biggest issue is with, like, the probation parole system where a lot of these stipulations are you can't associate with anyone that's a felon. And there's so many people that have felonies, especially when you're trying to find a job where they're, you know, only hiring felons say,

it should just be changed to you can't associate to anyone that's actively involved in crime or committing crimes. I mean, how would you even know unless someone told you? Like, I don't walk, you know, you don't walk around with the truth that says, I'm a felon on it. Like how would anyone know, honestly? Yeah, because I have some guests on the show. I mean, for the most part, most probation officers, and we have a lot that listen to the show, too, allow their client, the person they're supervising to come on the show because they know it's a positive experience. It's a therapeutic experience.

They're sharing their story. But some just say, oh, he's a felon, so you can't come on the show. There's still some that there's a blanket like that. Yeah, it's more federal, I think, because federal is really tough on its state, not as much, even though it's there. but it just, I feel like they need to change that. Yeah, that's, I mean, especially if it's coming out here to look at the mistakes I've made, I'm no longer going to make these mistakes, don't do the same thing I did, which a lot of your guests kind of go that route. Even if they don't come off that way, that's what they mean, you know?

Yeah. I see some people, some comments about how certain guests glorify prison. And I don't think those guests are glorifying it. I think they're just, that's their way of sharing the story and they still have the same message is the ones that don't tell those stories in a way. It's just they're they're misjudged. I think by the way and they go about sharing it. Like yeah, most like their delivery. The delivery, yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, and again, that comes across. Like, there's, there's cops that I see that probably said the same thing I do and their delivery isn't as good and it creates animosity where hopefully when I say the same thing, it's more understanding and, you know, you can relate a little bit better.

What's one thing you wish you could change about policing? there's lots of things give us a few too I mean I think that you know we have to get away from the whole like we're not humans like that aspect of it I know certain departments kind of have that like

almost like a mantra like us versus them type thing and and those types of things I just think are bad for the profession in general I think that our academies need to move into this this era of understanding and I think that we need to do a lot more

focusing on the communication aspect dealing with cameras, dealing with social media, dealing with an understanding that it's always going to be evolving. I think that our academies need to focus a lot more on the technology aspect of it

where what can benefit us, what can hurt us, those types of things. And I think that as government employees, were always slow to learn in those situations. So, like, moving in, you know, we're always years behind society when it comes to the evolution of, you know, hiring processes and evolution of embracing technology and those types of things. If you go back to your first day on the force, what advice would you give yourself if you're sitting across from him today? Someone from me that's very introverted. Don't be afraid to talk to people.

Like, yes, I know it's hard and I know it's taxing. but if you can get that comfortability and having communication with people, it's going to help your career out so much. If you learn how to talk intelligently and be empathetic and understanding with people, I mean, you don't even have to talk. Be an active listener.

And that's a lot of times what people want when they call the police. They just want you to be like, I'm sorry you're having the worst day of your life. No one's calling us and saying they won a million dollars. I mean, that'd be cool if they did, but most people are calling us on their worst day. And it might be something that's small to us, but it's the worst day of their life.

And as cops, we just have to understand like, okay, just go listen to them. Let them go vent, like actively listen. I'm sorry that you have to deal with this. Those types of things, it's going to go a lot further in your career. Yeah, do you think being a cop is more mental these days rather than physical? Well, I don't want that to be miscued because you have to have the physical ability to do the job and to, you know, run and defend yourself and defend other people. but yeah, I think a lot of, I mean, you could probably talk yourself in or out of a lot of fights. So if you can understand that and that your mouth works way better as a tool for, you know, controlling the situation than going hands on or weapons or any of those types of things.

And trust me, there's times that talking is not going to work at all. Like, there's those situations. But I think that communication and understanding where people are coming from goes a long way. I interviewed a juvenile correctional officer. His episode will already be out by the time this comes out. And he was saying that the one thing he wished that they taught him on the job was the mental aspect of how to deal with situations. They teach you all about the physical aspect in training, but the mental aspect they lacked. And he felt like a big part of the job was mental the way you could conduct yourself in those conversations.

No, I mean, I agree there. Yeah, I agree. I just didn't want people to take that as like you could be out of shape and still do. the job. You still have to, you know, do both. And then that's, I think that's a lot of the problem, too, is cops are supposed to be so many different things. You know, we're supposed to be like the psychologist and, you know, like all these other things and, and, and then also have the ability to run a mile, shoot accurately, like, wrestle people. And, you know, so it's, it, it, it takes a special person. And I think that's why I'm so passionate about, like, just glorifying the

a profession and showing that, you know, there's, there's millions of, or not millions, there's like 700,000 cops, 800,000 cops in this country, but the majority of them are, are good people that are trying to do the right thing. What's something you really struggle with about the job? I struggle, me personally, I struggle with the, um, I hate seeing dead bodies in general, like even natural death bodies. Like, that's just something that bothers me. I don't like seeing the violence.

Um, there's lots of crimes that I can understand, like, how people get. get involved and why they do it, but people that hurt women and kids, I just can't fathom it. It doesn't make sense to me. So those, I don't like seeing dead people. That's one thing I don't like, even natural deaths, but people that hurt women and kids, that's one thing that I struggle with. I talk about empathy and understanding and all that, this whole podcast, but those are the ones that I, I just can't find myself to grasp why people would hurt women and kids.

When you do see those things, how do you decompress from that? how do you go home and, you know, flick that switch that it's, all right, I'm going to be with my family now and not think about what I just saw that day. A lot of it is me. I do need, in between those times. So I do need some time to myself. So a lot of times, like, driving home from work, I will be listening to podcasts that take my mind away from what I just saw. And I just need a little bit of time to myself. And, but then, you know, having a supportive family is huge.

having dogs. I don't know. Dogs are huge for me. Just because no matter how bad of a day they're having, they're always there to like happy to see you. So those types of small things in life take my mind away from the bad moments. Well, Kenny, I appreciate you coming on the show today, man. I appreciate you having it.

It's truly a pleasure. Yeah, I'm looking forward to doing your show. I can't wait. And we'll have the links to your podcast and your social media in the description in this episode. Awesome, man. Thank you so much.