Locked In with Ian Bick - Whistleblower Exposes Shocking Abuse & Neglect Inside Rikers Island Prison | Justyna Rzewinski

Episode Date: February 20, 2025

Justyna Rzewinski, former Clinical Supervisor for Mental Health at Rikers Island, exposes the shocking abuse and neglect inside one of the country’s most notorious jails. She reveals the disturbing practice of "deadlocking," where detainees with serious mental illnesses are confined to their cells for extended periods without access to medical care. With firsthand accounts of systemic failures, mistreatment, and corruption, Justyna shares why she became a whistleblower and the devastating impact of neglect on inmates. She also discusses her ongoing fight for mental health reform and humane treatment in the prison system. #Whistleblower #RikersIsland #PrisonAbuse #InmateNeglect #TrueCrime #PrisonReform #InsideRikers #Exposed Thank you to LUCY for sponsoring today’s episode: Let’s level up your nicotine routine with Lucy.  Go to HTTP://LUCY.CO/IANBICK and use promo code (IANBICK) to get 20% off your first order. Lucy has a 30-day refund policy if you change your mind.  Connect with Justyna Rzewinski: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/justynaspeaksup/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/justyna-rzewinski-lcsw-phd-c-a620142b Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Presented by Tyson 2.0 & Wooooo Energy: https://tyson20.com/ https://woooooenergy.com/ Buy Merch: https://www.ianbick.com/shop Use code lockedin at checkout to get 20% off your order Timestamps: 00:00:00 Journey to Becoming a Clinical Supervisor at Riker's Island 00:04:09 Exploring Career Paths in Forensic Psychology 00:08:04 Introduction to Lucy Breakers 00:12:25 Challenges in Reintegration After Incarceration 00:16:40 Challenges of Reintegration for Former Prisoners 00:21:01 Mental Health Assessment and Suicide Watch Procedures in Correctional Facilities 00:25:10 Shocking Living Conditions in New York 00:29:46 Challenges in Coordinating Inmate Care 00:34:00 Rikers Island and Mental Health: The Fit for Trial Cycle 00:38:10 Mental Health Challenges in Detention Centers 00:42:29 Inmate Manipulation and Staff Dynamics in Mental Health Units 00:46:45 Workplace Dynamics and Gender Distribution in Corrections 00:51:05 Testifying Against Inhumane Practices 00:55:18 Investigation and Potential Closure of Rikers Island 00:59:36 Ending Solitary Confinement Policies 01:03:53 The Impact of Solitary Confinement on Mental Health 01:08:01 Finding and Reaching Out to You Powered by: Just Media House : https://www.justmediahouse.com/ Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Justina, welcome to Locked In. Thank you to Carissa, who was a guest on the show for connecting us today. Yeah, thank you for having me. Yeah, you've been quite busy with everything that's going on with your life and the story you're about to share today. Yes, it's been a crazy two months. Did you ever expect it to be like this? Never in a million years. I thought the story was going to come out, and that would be it.

Like, I had no idea I was going to get this big. And the story we're talking about is about Rikers Island. You used to work at Rikers Island. Yes. So I worked there for nine months. I started December 4th, 2023, and then I resigned in August, and my last day was in September. And what was your role at Rikers? So I was the clinical supervisor of the two mental health units. Okay. Now let's back up a second go from how you got to that position. Did you grow up in New York? I did. But I was born in Poland, and I came here when I was seven years old, but I came straight to New York City to Queens.

and that's where I lived all my life. Was it a big difference between Poland and New York City? Yeah, it was, especially because I lived in a small town. So, yes, definitely big difference. And I didn't know the language, so it was definitely a culture shock. Oh, you learned English fully over here? Yes. What do they speak in Poland?

Just Polish? Yes. Okay. And no one speaks English over there? They do. Like, they're learning English in school now, but I only went to first grade, so we didn't learn English at that point. Okay. And who'd you move here with? With both of my parents and my sister. And sister's older or younger? She's older. She's two years older. Okay. Why did your parents decide to

move here? At that time, everybody wanted to come to America and, you know, live the American dream. There were more opportunities here. So, yeah, everybody was trying to come here. What'd your parents do for work over here? Over here. Yeah. So my mom at the time, she was just cleaning house. like off the books and my dad was a truck driver. Okay. So he would come here when I was in Poland just to make some money. That's what usually people did. Like they would come work here for a little bit and send money back to their families.

So when we all came, like he already had a job here. Did you guys have money kind of growing up over here or did you struggle? Here we struggled. I mean, in Poland we were okay. We weren't like rich or anything. But we were okay. But definitely when we came here, we struggled because. in Poland my mom was a secretary. She had a good job. But then here, you know, she had to clean houses off the books. So we definitely struggled when we came here. Do you wish you stayed in Poland?

No. I'm happy to be here. Like I go back. I still have family there. And I just see like where my friends are at. And I definitely think I have more opportunities here. So now you grew up your whole life once you moved to the states in New York? Yes. So you never got to experience any other kind of state? No, I mean, I would go to Jersey, but that's about it. But we just lived in New York. Yeah, where in New York did you guys live? In Queens. Queens, okay. And you went to the schools there?

Yes. High school, I went to a high school in Long Island City. And then for college, I went to John Jay College of Criminal Justice, which was in Manhattan. And then for my master's, I went to Hunter College, which is also in Manhattan. So, yeah, outside of Queens. So why criminal justice? So what interest do you into that? And your parents don't come from that background.

Yeah, I have no idea. Everybody asks me, and I was just always very interested in it. It's not like anything particular happened in my life. It's just I always knew like, this is what I wanted to do. So when I graduated high school, I really wanted to go to John Jay and study forensic psychology. I knew I wanted to work with this population. I really don't know why. Interesting.

Yeah. What did your parents say when you told them that's what the field you wanted to go into? Yeah. My mom was very supportive. My dad, not really because, you know, he was like, what if you work in a jail? You know, just how dads are. But my mom was like, yeah, you know, these individuals need help also. So with that field, did you know the only place you could work at was a prison or did you have your site set on something else?

I had my site set on something else. When I was in John Jay, I took a class and it was an internship class. So I interned in Manhattan Addiction Treatment Center, which is an inpatient substance. abuse program and that was on Ward's Island where Manhattan Psychiatric Center and Kirby Forensic Psychiatric Center is and Kirby is for people that are found guilty but maybe they're legally insane. So I was really interested in that area and I remember when I was doing my internship I asked my supervisor if I can go and like visit Kirby and he asked but they said no because it's like a high security. It's kind of like a prison. So they said, no, you can't just go and like visit.

But I was so interested in that. But I knew I can work in like outpatient settings. I just knew I wanted to work with that population. Was there ever a point during schooling where you were like, maybe I need a career change. This isn't for me. No. No, I would listen to my professors who worked in the field and I was just like so fascinated. I'm like, this is what I want to do. Now, whether criminal justice degree, there's multiple avenues you've could have went as well, right? Yes. So I studied forensic psychology and while I was doing my internship, there were a lot of social workers that were working there. And they kind of encouraged me to go for my social work degree. And they said, with your social work degree, you can work in any kind of setting.

So then I did go for my master's in social work. Were there a lot of people in school with you that wanted to go directly to law enforcement? No, no. A lot of people wanted to like work with children, do like trauma work. I was like the very few that like really wanted to work with the forensic population. That's such like an interesting career path, the forensic aspect of it. It is. It is. And I remember when I was doing my internship in grad school and one of the other students who was also doing her internship, we were just talking one day. And she was like, yeah, I could never work with like people. that commit sex offenses or these kinds of people. And I would be like, oh, like, I can. Like, I don't see anything with it.

Like, so it was just something like I always wanted to do something. I just felt comfortable. So do you think some people are just naturally born with that ability to work with those types of people? And then some are just always, we'll have that a bias against them. Yes, because right now I also teach. I teach in John Jay, actually. So it's great to like want that I was going there.

And now I'm able to teach. So I'm an adjunct there. And a lot of the students, you know, want to get into the forensic field, but they don't really know what it's about. And I found that there's like even stigma there with like certain populations. They're like, oh, I want to work with this population, but not with this population or in this kind of setting. So there is, definitely. Have you ever dug into kind of what the root of that was? Is it maybe from their families have given them a perception of it?

Yeah, I think so. And I think like the media, like what people see on TV definitely shapes that. Yeah, I mean, especially when people that went to prison are always talking about that group of individuals who are and not necessarily good people and they kind of spread a lot of hate onto them. Not saying it's not undeserved, but, you know, it's just, it's a complicated gray area. But as a professional in the field, you have to look at it differently. Yeah.

And I always like in my class have like a lot of my friends who've been in car. and are doing amazing things, come in and talk to the students so that they can see, like, people that have been incarcerated and are really successful. Because, like, it's really important for me to show them, like, no, there are people that have been through the system and are doing amazing things. And they're really surprised. They're like, wow, I never thought, like, he was incarcerated. I would have never known.

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and every order is age verified. warning this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. Go check it out. Thank me later. Now, let's get back into today's episode. How long did it take you before you could actually dive into your specific career during schooling? Like the first two years where they just normal academics and then you got to learn, what was that like?

Yes. So it's like normal general academics. We have to do an internship the first year. I interned in a school. I didn't want to intern in a school, but like the first year they just placed you where it's like closest to your house. But it was a good experience. But I just, I wasn't into it. Like I knew I didn't want to work in a school.

The second internship I interned in Harlem Hospital in the outpatient child and adolescent psychiatric unit. And that was really a good experience. But it's not until I started working and I graduated. That's when I was going to, it was, that's when I was able to get that experience. Oh, so your very first year, you dive in. to internships. Yes. So in the master's program, you have to do two internships. Okay. How many years of schooling did you do all together? So four years for your bachelor's and then two years for your master's. And right now I'm in a PhD program. How hard was it to find a job once you got out of school?

It wasn't. It wasn't very difficult. I mean, social workers are in demand. I wasn't getting paid much. Our salaries are not a lot for the work that we do. But it was pretty, quick to get a job. Why do you think the salaries are so low in that field? You know, that's really hard to tell. I don't know. I mean, they're always like trying to advocate for higher salaries. I just think this profession's not really recognized for the work that we do. They have gone up recently, especially like because of COVID, but it's just always been low. What do you think is the biggest misconception about your profession? That we just do like paper. or that we work with like helping people get like services like food stamps or like you know we just do case management but social workers do a lot more like a lot of people that are in private practice providing therapy are social workers so how many years in between school and rikers happen like how many different jobs so i had one job and i worked with children and families in a preventive program but i only worked there for a year and i really

liked that job, but it wasn't for me. Like I said, I always wanted to work in the forensic field. So I only worked there for a year and then I got a job working with people on parole in an outpatient program. It was a substance abuse and mental health patient program for people who are coming home from prison and are on parole and are mandated to do certain programs. So I did that for 11 years. Oh, 11 years. Wow. Yeah. And I loved it. Why did you decide to leave there? So I started off as a regular therapist. I moved up. I became a supervisor. I specialize in sex offender treatment because a lot of our clients were convicted of sex offenses and they needed to do specific sex offender treatment. Then I became the director. So I moved up in every position. And that's really when I decided to go for my PhD because I saw like how these policies impact my clients that don't make. any sense. Like it was really hard for them to reintegrate back into the communities after doing so much time. And I just thought like, you know, it's great meeting with them one on one providing

that clinical support, but like they still have to go back and like live in a shelter or, you know, they get violated for like technical violation. So I decided to enroll in a PhD program. And in that program like all of my papers, everything I was focusing was on criminal justice. And then the opportunity came to work on Rikers. And I thought to myself like, well, if this is going to be my career and I've never been incarcerated, like I want to see what it's like. You know, I didn't want to be like one of those people that's like I'm a criminal justice reform activist, which is fine. It's great. We need people. But have never like been there or experienced that. So that's really why I took the opportunity.

It wasn't because I didn't like my job. You know, I still work for them. I supervise to social workers. I'm, you know, we have a great relationship. I worked there for 11 years. Like those people are like my family. But I just felt like in my career and where I want to go, Rikers would be the next thing.

You know, when you said sex offender treatment, what does that mean? Because that's like a big topic about are people born with it? Can they actually be treated for it? Yeah. What's your take on that? So, you know, it really depends. And when people think about people that committed sex offenses, they think of rapist, pedophiles.

But there's a lot more. Like, there's people, I had clients who may have been a little bit older and had sex with someone underage and didn't ask for their age, didn't even get to know them. Like, there's a lot of different scenarios. So, you know, it really depends. you know, people that are diagnosed with pedophilia, the attraction that they have for children will always be there. It doesn't go away. However, they can learn in treatment how to not act out on those attractions. And does that treatment actually work?

Is it successful? It does. There's research that's been proven that treatment actually does work. Okay. And now I'm sure you see content relating to sex offenders on the internet. How do you feel about how they are treated in the prison? Yeah, I don't think they're treated fairly. I don't think we should judge people for what they did.

And I know like, and my clients told me all the time, like, you know, in prison they're treated the worst. Like they're the lowest of the lowest. But like people are in prison there who've committed crimes also. So I don't think people should be judged. Of course there needs to be consequences for your actions. But like shaming someone and judging someone. like that's not going to help them not commit another crime. And especially when they're released, they can't live by a school.

They have to live in a shelter. You know, they have to register for the rest of their life. And they're released from prison. So that means that they went before the parole board and they were found to be able to live in society. Like the parole board recommended for them to be released. So making it more difficult for them is just going to make it, it's just, it's just going to it's going to lead to people

commit more crimes have you seen like a common characteristic among those types of people in all of your work history I mean like I said there's so many different types of crimes but what I found

from my experience is that most of the people that I've met come out and want to like change their life and stay out in society of course I had clients who went back. I have clients who I think should never be released into the community because they're a safety. I'm not saying everyone should be released and, you know, but I think most of them just want to live their life and like move on and don't want to go back to prison, especially because of

the way they were treated in prison. Yeah. I know it's a very controversial topic, but, you know, I believe in community safety when I was working there. And now my goal is to prevent more sexual abuse. So from my experience, like if we don't allow these individuals to live in stable housing or get a job, like that's going to make people want to go back to prison because they're going to think like, well, I have nothing to lose, right? And if someone has a stable job, has a place to live, they're not going to want to go back. They're going to have supports.

So, you know, if we really do believe in, like, community safety and no more victims, we also have to help these individuals reintegrate. No, I think it's important to share, like, your side of it because that is a, it's a very controversial subject. And it's a big gray area. And they are all kind of looped into one category, whereas, like, drug dealers or people with violent crimes or all these different charges in prison are not necessarily lumped into. one category like the sex offenders are. Yeah, and just like, you know, the registry and they have specific parole restrictions. Like I said, while they're on parole, they can't live by a school. If you're at a level three on the sex offender registry, automatically you can't live by a school. And I had clients who were a level three, but their victims were adults.

They never committed a crime against a child, but they can't live by a school. And like, does that make sense? like they never committed a crime against a child. They're not attracted to children. So now they're living in a shelter. And I had clients who had jobs saving money to get an apartment, are in a healthy, stable, romantic relationship where their parole officer met the woman, approved for them to be in a relationship,

but are living in a shelter just because they can't live by a school. So I think it has to be on an individual basis. Like I said, there are some people that are dangerous. and should not be out in society because they will reoffend. And then there's some people who, yes, committed this all for crime, but have been released for years and have not been in trouble with the law and are just trying to move on with their life. Were a lot of these individuals abused themselves as kids? So they do come from traumatic childhoods.

They do. However, like, we don't use that as an excuse because we do say that, you know, there's people that do come from traumatic childhoods. and never commit a sex offense. I look at it as it's one piece of a large puzzle. Yeah, and there's multiple pieces and a lot of different dynamics. So now when you get to Rikers, that was the way you were describing it earlier when we first sat down. That was like a management position.

Yes. So I was the clinical supervisor. And on Rikers, I would supervise the clinicians that work on the unit. I had two units. I had the mental observation unit and the pace. So in Rikers, you have general population, which is GP, then M.O., which is mental observation, and then Pace. Pace is the highest level of care. Pace has about 35 to 38 patients. We refer to them as patients, not inmates. And it's a smaller unit with more mental health staff. And the M.O. unit has 50 guys with less mental health staff. So in the M.O. unit, we will. would get a lot of guys from GP. Some of them needed to be a mental observation.

Some of them maybe because of their charge, like a sex offense or they were involved in a gang. And maybe they didn't want to be involved anymore. They would come to the MO unit. So sometimes they would say that they're suicidal or cut themselves to come on the MO unit. Now, that's like what we hear about when you go to one of these rooms and you're naked or in a chicken suit or something when you're on suicide watch. Is it laid out like that? So some of them don't come in on suicide watch. Some of them just say, you know, they're experiencing different symptoms.

Sometimes DOC will make a referral because they observe that this individual may be experiencing like auditory hallucinations. They're responding to it. So they come on the mental observation unit and then we assess them. And then I would determine like, okay, is this individual supposed to stay here? Or are they okay to go back to general population? or do they need even a higher level of care, which is pace. Now, if someone is on suicide watch, they're supposed to have all of their properties taken from them

and wear like this smock. They would call it like the turtle outfit because it's like cream and stuff. A lot of times they still had their property. So we would have to email DOC and say like, hey, so and so is on suicide watch with all of their property. So, yeah, and they would also be able to be on the unit on suicide watch. Like they were in Locked in their cell.

They would be out on the unit as well. So this is its own separate unit, like in a building? How is it kind of laid out? So it's a building, but these are the mental health units. So I worked in GRVC and it has the most mental health units. But the people that were on suicide watch would be with the other people on the mental health unit. Okay. And are you trained as a correctional officer, too, when you took this position? No, because I was just clinical.

Now, I know in the federal system, sometimes they had like the nurses and social workers and case managers when they were short-staffed work like the units. Did they have you do that or now? No. No. Yeah, I didn't know that. Yeah, it's pretty crazy. Like when they have, when they're short-staffed, they would do the units or they would, it was pretty crazy. Yeah. Yeah, that is. And those were the individuals you always knew were like, um, were the sweet guards, you would say, because, uh, they weren't, they didn't want to be there. Right. They were just told they needed to watch the unit because they were so short staff. Right. So when, what would be like a typical

day when you get in from start to finish? What are your hours? What did that look like? So I worked like 8 to 4, like Friday. It was my late day like 10 to 7. Um, I split my time in between the two units. I would like, there was an office on the unit. And I would like, there was an office on the unit. And I would sit in that office. I always like to engage with the patients. So like in the morning, I would go to the unit, meet with my staff. We would do a morning meeting. Sometimes the officers would be in the meeting and, you know, just attend any kind of meetings, do supervision, talk to the clients.

I would also have to send, well, not the clients, the patients. I would have to send them sometimes to Bellevue. Bellevue is a hospital in New York City and they have a prison ward in Bellevue. So if someone decompensated, I would send them to Bellevue hoping that Bellevue would admit them. Now, what was your first impression, like your honest first impression walking into Rikers that very first day? You know, I didn't think it was that bad. I mean, I've watched so many documentaries and I read about Rikers. So I was like kind of prepared.

So like my first impression, it wasn't so bad. until I really saw what was going on there. But, like, just walking in, seeing, I mean, the building is really old. So I was, like, surprised how, like, old the building is and not in a good condition. But I was like, okay, this is okay. Like, just walking in, you know. But then I really saw what was happening. And that's when I was, like, really shocked.

How long did it take you to see what was really happening? Like, right away, you know, I would go on the units. I was trained. And, like, right away, I saw. Yeah, it didn't take long. What was the very first thing that you saw that kind of disturbed you and it's like, this isn't right? So just the patients being locked in in their cells.

I remember going with the person that trained me just to the different cells and just seeing people locked in their cells with like feces everywhere, not responding to us. So like I always, like I remember thinking like I've never seen people like live like this. You know, I take the train every day. Like, I've seen homeless people in New York City, but I've never seen people in these conditions. And would you label that in professional terms as abuse? Yes. Yes, for sure. Like, the things that I saw, I could not, like, ever imagined.

Like, it was horrible. And what do you do when you see that that very first time? I mean, I think the first time I saw, I mean, I would talk to the person that was training me and they were, like, they were, like, like, yeah, we're going to try to get them out. Like, I don't, I think I was just in shock. I don't even remember that conversation. But very quickly I saw that this was like a common practice. Like this was happening in all of the units because I would train with different people.

So I would go to their units. So this was happening everywhere. And it was just very shocking. What were some of the other shocking things that you'd see there? I think, I mean, just like, you know, how the officers spoke to. to the patients there. You know, sometimes they would provoke them. But I think like visibly the most shocking thing was all the deadlocks.

So they would call it deadlocks. It wasn't like the patient was locked in. They were deadlocked. And there were a lot of guys on my unit. Like one day I come in and there's 15 guys deadlocked. And when I say deadlocked, it's not where they can come out for like, hour or two and take a shower. Like once they're deadlocked, like they are not coming out. Like they're stuck in their cell? Yes. And just forever or for how long? So it really

depended. But I had clients who were deadlocked for weeks and weeks and even months. So what would happen is because these individuals have a severe mental illness, which is SMI, they were diagnosed with schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, bipolar disorder, where they had to take medication. Once they were deadlocked, they had no access to medication because the medication came on the floor on the unit. So when medication came, all of the patients would line up in a line to get their medications. But once someone is deadlocked, they're not coming out to take their medication. So because they're diagnosed with a serious mental illness being in a cell and not having access to medication. They decompensated so quickly where I had to send them to Bellevue.

And now are they getting fed? They are. They are. A lot of the patients would scream that they're hungry, ask for chips. Some of the other patients on the unit would tell me they're not being fed as they should. I never witnessed it because I would have to like just be there the whole day and see the other patients told me that I don't know if that's true. But they would get fed and what was like most shocking was that they would eat the food with their cells smeared in feces with flies. And this is how they woke up in the morning, ate their breakfast, lunch and dinner in that cell smeared with feces and flies and maggots. Now is that because they're mentally ill or is that their retaliation against the guards for treating them poorly?

So the feces. Yeah. So it was interesting because we've had a lot of conversations about that. And I think there's several reasons. It could be because they're upset and they want to get out or also because of their mental illness. What do you think it is? It's a combination. And also a lot of times their water was cut off.

So they couldn't even flush the toilet. it so they would just smear feces every year. But it was just, I've never witnessed something horrific like that in my life. Like my patients had feces on their hair. And like I said, this is how they went to sleep and like woke up in a small cell filled with feces. It smelled so bad. It smelled so bad that there were times in my office on the unit, I couldn't eat my lunch because I would smell the feces. Like I had to go to the cafeteria. This is a paid message from GoFundMe.

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intro rate first three months only then full price plan options available taxes and fees extra feeful terms at mintmobile.com period to eat because I just couldn't eat my lunch. Now, as in your role, as someone that was higher up kind of in the food chain for your department, you didn't have the power to let them out of their cells saying it was for medical purposes or anything like that? No, but we would work with the officers to try to get them out. And it really depended on what officer would be there. So we knew like, okay, so and so is here.

They're not letting them out. We're not even going to ask. We're going to wait for so and so to. come hopefully tomorrow because that's their day to come to work to let these individuals out. So it was a lot of coordinating. They do also have other patients who work for sanitation and have to clean those cells. So there's one officer that's in charge of that unit, like in charge of that job. But we would have to coordinate with her and not always was she available.

And also for them to clean the cell, the individual would have to be out of the cell. and the officers wouldn't just let the individual out just to get the cell clean. They would have to wait if the person goes to court or if I send them to Bellevue. So if I send them to Bellevue, then they would coordinate with that officer to get the cell clean, and it would be other inmates cleaning those cells. How are the officers treating you? Some were nice and some were not. Yeah.

And is that a direct correlation to the ones that were not? nice, cared about the inmates and the ones that were not, didn't care about the inmates? Yeah, you know, some just took a lot of things personal. So a lot of times when another patient, like, disrespected the officer, some of the officers would tell me, like, send him back to GP. He's not really mentally ill. And I wasn't going to do that if I believe that this individual needs to be on the mental health unit, you know, because that's my name, that's my signature.

and, you know, sending someone to general population because they disrespected an officer is not a good reason. I mean, they're in jail and they have a mental illness, not saying, you know, people with mental illness are disrespectful, but like let's look at where they're at. Did you come across inmates that would fake mental illness to get off the general population? Yeah, I did.

I did. How would you spot those individuals? I mean, well, definitely, like, I would look at, like, the history. They had a history of coming in and out of mental, of the mental health unit and just speaking to them, just observing them. But I did keep them on my unit.

Like, I didn't mind them being on the unit because, like, I always felt like, well, there's like some kind of reason that they keep coming and going. Like, let's really get down to the root of it and, like, see what's going on. So, like, I wasn't, like, just sending anyone to general population.

So, like, some of the officers did not like that and therefore didn't really like me because like I wouldn't just send anyone to general population. These inmates, these patients, were they awaiting trial? Were they already sentenced and that's where they were doing their time? Yes. So most of them and most people on Rikers have not been sentenced yet because it's a jail. So they're going through their court proceedings. If they got like a year, then they may just do their time there. But most of them, I would say about like 90 or more percent, like are going through their court proceedings. And also a lot of the mental health patients on my unit, they were 730 patients, which means that they were found unfit

to continue with their court proceedings. So they were waiting to go to an OMH hospital to be restored to fitness. And a lot of times we were just waiting for them to go. Like these individuals were deadlocked in their cell and we were just waiting like, okay, hopefully. tomorrow he goes to OMH where he can get better because in OMH facilities they would not lock anyone in. That person would have access to medications. They would do groups. And then once they're restored to fitness, they come back to Rikers and they're a completely

different person like unrecognizable. Like I didn't even recognize some of my patients because I would just see them deadlocked in their cell, sometimes not even communicating or screaming, cursing me out. and then they come back, they gain weight, they're able to have a conversation. So it is possible to be deemed unfit for trial only to later be deemed fit for trial? Yes, because then that person, because at the time when they were arrested, they were not taking their medications and they were found unfit. They don't even know the purpose of a lawyer. They don't know what a judge is.

So then they go to one of these facilities where they take their medication and they have second. educational groups about the court process and are fit to stay in trial and come back to Rikers. However, the problem was that a lot of times when they came back to Rikers, they stopped taking their meds and they decompensated again and then would have to go back to OMH to be restored to fitness again. So there's people that are on Rikers for like even three years because they went to OMH a few times because they keep being found unfit after they come back. Do you think a lot of crimes are committed by these individuals because they weren't taking

their meds to begin with? Yes. And I'm not blaming mental illness because there's people that have a mental illness and don't commit crimes. But all of the clients that I spoke to all of the patients, none of them were on their medication when they were arrested for the crime. A lot of them were homeless without any support. Some of them abusing drugs.

I've never met one patient who was arrested and was taking their medication. So what does that tell us about society when you look at these cases or the mental health world to begin with? There's definitely a mental health crisis and that we don't do enough to support these individuals in the community. We obviously make it worse for them while they're in jail and then we just let them out into the community to live in a regular shelter without any support. Some people need to be monitored. Some people need to be checked on every day to see if they took their medications. And in New York City, that doesn't happen. We don't have shelters, facilities like that.

So the person's really left on their own. Did you ever find out why the person who had your job before left? I mean, there were a lot of people that left that had my job and worked on the other units in my position. Because there were few units. So they were few clinical supervisors, my colleagues. They left because, you know, they said it was very difficult to work there. And, yeah, it's a very hard environment to work in. Do you think that was kind of a red flag when you started finding out that there was people that were leaving and left that position before?

Yeah. And then I would see it like, okay, I know why they left. Like, it makes sense. Why do you think you made it all the way to nine months? I mean, that wasn't long. There were people that were there for longer. And I'm like, I don't know how they did it. But I could only do nine months because quickly I realized, like, I can't really help while I'm there.

And like, I really took that job because I really wanted to help and like make a difference. And quickly I saw that like I can't. Even like when we helped individuals get locked out, like I had one patient who was locked in maybe. for like definitely over a month. He came from another unit. And when he came from another unit, the officer said that he's an automatic deadlock because he was playing with shit on the other unit.

They didn't say like smear feces. They would use that term playing with shit. So they deadlocked him from the beginning. And he would scream and scream and bang and like rip up his mattress and constantly ask for chips. And I would go and talk to him. And, you know, I would tell him like, Please don't bang and scream.

Like, I'm going to work with the officers to get you out. But that person already compensated so badly that, like, they can't help it. Like, this person had schizophrenia, was not taking meds and locked, like I said, in a small cell filled with feces. And the mental health team worked with officers. We got him out. He was doing okay. He was behaving oddly because he's been locked in a cell, not on his meds. He would often stand by my door of the office and just like stare at me, which was fine.

Like it didn't make me uncomfortable because I knew he had a mental illness. And this is like the first time he's out in so long. He did okay for the whole week. I come back on Monday and he's locked back in. And I asked the officers like, what happened? Like he was doing okay. And another thing was that I didn't mention is that they never documented this because they're not. supposed to lock anyone in, especially with a severe mental illness. So they didn't document it.

The only way we knew somebody was locked in, deadlocked, and the way they knew it was because they would put a white tag in the control panel where the cell numbers are, where they can open, like, the door and close the door, they would put a white tag and that meant that person is deadlocked. So I come back in on Monday and I'm like, why is so and so locked in? And they're like, well, we're not really sure because we weren't here over the weekend, but we heard that a female officer from the other side came to get water and he was standing very close to her and looked at her inappropriately. And so we locked him back in.

And now the individual who was doing well for a week, taking his medication every day for that week, is back locked in, smearing feces, banging and screaming on the cell. And now I have to start from point one again. Wow. Yeah. Did you ever report this to the higher ups once you got trained and you were in your rhythm and kind of got comfortable in your job? Yeah, I did.

I mean, we had during like our supervisions with our supervisors, we, all of those supervisors spoke about this. Like this was, like I said, unknown practice and we would go to our supervisor and tell them like, what are we supposed to do? These people are locked in for so long. Like, what can we do? So they knew and, you know, their suggestion, was like, well, work with the officers, try to get them out. That was really it. But like I said, it depended on the officer.

And the hardest, I think, was like over the weekend because we weren't there. And like I said, nothing was documented. So a lot of times we didn't really know the whole story. Like, why is this individual locked in? So what happens next? This is going on. What kind of, what's leading up until you deciding to leave? I mean, there was like a lot of situations.

but definitely that played a big part because I was like, I can't just sit there and like watch this happen. Like I'm a social worker. Like we're mandated reporters. And when we see anyone being abused, like, we have to report it. So I was like, I can't like work here and like see this happen and I can't do anything. Like I said, I've tried many times. We got clients out. You know, they did okay.

Then something happened. They went back in. Like I just saw like there's nothing much. that I can do. Like the difference that I wanted to make, like, I can't do it here. And then, like, I would also see how, like, the officers would provoke certain patients to get them off the unit. So, like, I had a patient who, a young kid from New York City, very intelligent, you know,

a lot of people thought he was, like, very needy. I don't think he was needy, but, like, he knew his rights. And, for example, at 8 o'clock, everybody's supposed to be locked out. Sometimes the officers wouldn't let the guys out until nine. And like he knew eight o'clock, you have to be locked out. So he would complain about that. Sometimes the officers weren't on the unit and they're supposed to always be on the unit

and he would complain about that. And they just thought he was like a problem because they wanted a quiet, peaceful unit. Because like I said, this is mental health. These officers want to work on the mental health. units because they know GP is crazy. And I heard I've never been to GP, but I heard that the inmates run the units in GP, like the officers are like in the bubble. I don't know if this is true. This is what I found. So a lot of them wanted to be on the mental health unit because to them it was like an easier job. So they wanted like quiet units. So if you have someone who's like

advocating and speaking up, they're annoyed. And basically, um, a situation happened where this patient got transferred of the unit. I wasn't there when it happened. When he got transferred of my unit, I went to see him. And he told me that the officers provoked him. He said one of the officers said to him, like, well, at least my mom talks to me, not like your mom. And he had a strained relationship with his mom.

And he blew up and he spat at her because of that. And other people that have worked there for years told me, yeah, this looks like a setup. This is what happens. So they didn't want him on the unit. So they did something to provoke him. So then he reacts. And now he has to be transferred off the unit to another unit. Wow.

So like just seeing that happen, I'm like, this is crazy. Like, how are you going to say that to someone like at their lowest point? like at least like my mom talks to me like I was just I can't so like definitely like situations like that I was like this is like there's nothing I can do I wasn't even there you know like he got transfer of the unit now I'm not going to be able to work with him anymore because he's in a different unit and of course I went to visit him in the different unit but I was just like how are we helping these individuals get better it must have been tough too because I'm sure a part of you doesn't want to quit. Like you want to kind of stick it out so you could help people because that's

your deep down you're a helper like you want to help people because that's the the career path you went into. Right. Yeah, no, it was so hard. Like resigning when I made the decision. I mean, I looked for a job. Once I got offered a new job, that's when I told my supervisor that I'm resigning and like I was crying. I was so sad and it was really difficult because I felt like I'm giving up. You know, I'm like, I only like been here for nine months and like I really want to make a difference and I'm just like giving up. I'm walking away. And then I remember when I told my patients, they were like, oh, you're abandoning us. You're leaving us. So it was really, really hard, really hard because I just thought like maybe I'm just not strong enough. Like,

you know, I kind of like was looking at myself and thinking like why like other people have worked there for years. Like, why can't I? But, you know, you. But. You know, you. And I kind of, you know, I was looking at myself and thinking like, why. And It really impacted my mental health. Like, I hate it going to work. And because of, like, the situations, like I mentioned with the young guy, those officers, because I would advocate for him, like, wouldn't talk to me. Like, I would come on the unit and say good morning, and they wouldn't even respond. Like, there was so much tension because, like, they didn't like him.

And because I was advocating for him, you know, they took it out on me. I remember once a captain was looking for me, and I've never met him before, but he really wanted to talk to me because patients from the mental observation unit, they're put on a waiting list to go to pace. And once there's room in pace, they go to a pace. But if they come from my mental observation unit, it makes sense that they would go to my pace unit because I already know them. instead of them going to another PACE unit with like another supervisor. So I had a captain come up to me and say that he has heard from staff and the officers that I'm bringing all the problematic patients from M.O. to this PACE unit. And I had to explain to him like they're on a list for PACE. If they wouldn't come to this unit, they would go to another unit.

Like they're supposed to be in PACE. Like it's not me trying to bring all the problems to the PACE unit. Do you think that these officers that sit idle are a part to blame, the ones that don't say anything, don't speak up, don't do anything? Yeah. And I think it's hard for them also because I did meet like very few officers that were great. But then like their coworkers like say certain things to them or like, you know, call them like pussies and like that they're soft, that they're easy. And I think like it's been going on for so long that I feel like they kind of get used to it. I don't know. I think they just think like, yeah, this is the norm.

Was it a male-dominated workplace or were there a lot of females when you were there? I mean, I think like half and half. I would say like half and half. In your department, was there the same situation? In the mental health, like staff? Yeah. I mean, I think no. In mental health, there was more women.

Just because, like, women get, there's more women that get into the field. But with the correction officer, I would say it's like, half and half, maybe a little bit more men, but close to like half and half. When you started to report it aside from the captain, you were just talking about, were you retaliated against it all? No, but like I said, there were tension. Like, there were officers that would not speak to me. So not like, you know, I got like hurt or, but it, they made it very, very uncomfortable

for me to work there. And just like with the other patient, they made it uncomfortable for him and wanted him off the unit, I think they made it uncomfortable for me so I can leave, but they didn't know what I was about to do. So, yeah. So what happens when you quit? You resign. What what happens next? So I already had this idea before, before I resigned, because like I said, it was so difficult for me to resign. And I said to myself, like, you know, I came here to like make a difference. And I'm not just going to leave and forget about these individuals.

So I would talk to one of my good friends who's also been incarcerated and he's a fan of this show. His name is Bruce Bryant. I don't know if you know him. You should have brought him. Yeah. Maybe one day he could be on the show. He has a great story.

He's been incarcerated for a very long time and he's doing amazing things. So we connected and I would call him after work because I needed to like talk to someone who knew what it's like and I needed to vent. So I would go home and I would always call him and be like, oh my God, like this is happening. This is happening. And he would give me advice and stuff. So I remember when I told him like I'm going to resign and I told him because I would tell him what I'm seeing. I'm like, I want to do something about it. Like I want people to find out.

So he connected me to a lawyer he works with. Gina Mitchell and I told her what was happening and I'm still working there. And then she connected me to a lawyer from New York County defenders, Casey, who specializes in mental health on Rikers and I told her what was going on. So when I was leaving, like I already had this plan that I was going to speak out about this. So that definitely helped me leave because I felt like, okay, I'm going to do. something about this. I'm not just leaving and like giving up on my patients. Like I'm going to say something. So I already spoke to them while I was still working there, but I told them, you know,

I don't want to move forward because I'm still working there. But I remember my last day was September 20th. It was a Friday. On Monday, that Monday, I had a meeting with them on Zoom with the lawyers and we talked about like next steps. So they said we either can come out with the story and have your name out there or not. And I was going back and forth with myself for a few days because I was like, well, I don't know if DOC is going to retaliate. Like, you know, I'm worried about my safety. Like I have a child, my family. But then I did make a decision that I was going to come out with and have my name out there. So that was a Monday. So that Thursday, I did an interview with daily news. And then that following Tuesday, the story came out in daily news. And I testified

before the Board of Corrections about this. And in the article, in Daily News, it said that I will testify later today in front of the Board of Corrections. And what was that testimony like? I mean, I was so scared. I was really scared because it was going to be live. And I saw my old boss there. So that was like even like I was even more nervous because, I really liked my old boss. Like I had nothing against New York City health and hospitals because that's who I was employed by. I wasn't employed by DOC.

And I feel like mental health did what they could. So I didn't want it to look like, you know, I'm talking bad about like my boss because I respected her. So that was like really like nerve wrecking to see her there. But, you know, I testified. I told them all the stories of what I witnessed. of the patients being deadlocked for weeks and months. And the board said that, you know, these are very serious allegations.

They're going to investigate. Yeah, and it just, I got a lot of support from, like, people on the outside. A lot of people, advocates reached out to me. The public defenders reached out. And then they would also contact their patients to find out, like, if this is happening, if this happened to them. So, like, more stories came out because of this. And the public defenders said that they heard about this,

but they didn't think it was so, like, widespread. Like I said, this was happening in every unit. And this was a common practice before I got there. Because when I got there, they weren't trying to hide this. Like, this is what they did. Somebody disrespects them. Let's lock them in. And then what happened also would be that once these individuals are deadlocked,

because of their mental illness, they start smearing feces. They start banging and screaming all day. And then the officers would be like, well, I can't let him out because he's smearing feces. And I'm like, yeah, but he's smearing feces because he's locked in. And they're like, well, I can't let him out because he's banging and screaming all day. Yes, because he's locked in. So they would use that as an excuse to keep someone deadlocked longer and longer. I remember one day I called my mom during lunch to check in.

And she's like, Justina, who is screaming in? banging like that. And I was like one of the patients, like she heard on the other line. Like that's how bad it was. I saw a patient put feces in his water bottle and drink water out of the water bottle because he was so decomposed. This Memorial Day shop one of Avocados' biggest mattress sales of the year and fall in love with sleep again. At Avocado, better sleep starts with better materials. Our certified organic mattresses are crafted without compromise using high-quality organic materials that bring comfort and support into perfect balance. No polyurethane foams, no shortcuts, just a cleaner,

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That's avocado mattress.com. Sated. It was that bad that this is what he did. Now, do you think the board actually was interested in finding out the truth to make changes, or were they kind of just brushing you off during the questioning? So I was, I really liked the outcome because everybody said they like took it very seriously, the lawyers that I was working with. And like, thanks to them, like I was able to do all of this. Like they've been so supportive from the start.

They were with me during the testimony. But they haven't investigated as they said they would. So the next board meeting, which was November 12, like a lot of the public defenders, told them, like, why are you not investigating? You said you're going to investigate. Like, why is they're not an investigation? So I'm not sure what's going on with that. Do you think they're covering it up?

I don't know. I hope not. You know, like people that I spoke to, they're like, yeah, we're not really surprised. Like, I was new to all of this and I'm very, like, hopeful and optimistic person. So I was like, wow, they're taking it seriously. Something's going to be done. But they may be. Why do you think you were the first person to get this together?

Yeah, I have no idea. And everybody asks me that because there were a lot of people that left. And I just don't know. I don't know. Maybe they just wanted to put like Rikers behind them. You know, there were moments where when I resigned and was going through this where I was like, why am I doing all of this? Let me just put this behind me, move on with my life. But then I was like, no, I have to do this for my patience.

So maybe that's why I have no. idea. It's just very strange that nobody said anything. It's also scary going up against a, yeah, you know, a big entity essentially. It is. So they could have been scared. And like I said, they just want to like leave it behind them. So what's going to happen next with the whole process? Will there be a lawsuit? What will happen? So right now the Department of Investigations is doing an investigation and the Department of Justice is involved in that. So they will be doing an investigation. What's the outcome you're hoping for? That they find what I've been saying and they change things and don't allow this to happen and like monitor. And I mean, the outcome that I would

love is for a federal takeover. Do you think that's what's needed at Rikers Island? Yeah. Yeah, it has to be someone from the outside. Yes. Do you think Rikers needs to be closed? Yes, it does. Now, what's going on with that? Didn't they say they want to close it by a certain year. 27, yeah. So we're, I mean, it's in the process of being closed. I think it needs to be closed. Like going on that island is so depressing. Like going over that bridge, like it's so depressing. Like it just has such a bad history and so many things happen. Like I just think it needs to be closed. Like I stated, the facilities are

in horrible conditions when it was raining and I would come into work. There were buckets and buckets. because there was water dripping from the ceiling. And yeah, and it needs to be closed because I don't think it can be redone in any kind of way. It needs to be closed and the plan is to build the smaller jails in each borough. And right now the DOC budget per year is $2.7 billion, which is a lot of money. If they close Rikers and build the smaller jails, that would save. $2 billion, which could be used then to create better community supports for individuals that are being released.

So they're not just being released to the streets because these individuals are going to be released unless somebody is going to serve 25 to life and goes upstate. But most of these individuals are released into the community. And like I said, if we do believe, like care about community safety, like we have to help these individuals. Is there another an alternative location for the mental health aspect of it other than Rikers right now in New York City? Well, that's the problem. Like most people with the mental illness go into Rikers.

There's not enough hospitals and the hospitals were closed because of the abuse that took place there. So I think like mental health facilities need to be built because at the end of the day, you know, it's a jail. So like even if it's redone and. And it's great. It's still a jail at the end of the day. And people need mental health treatment. You know, I do believe like there needs to be consequences for people's actions, but they need to be better. They need to have better mental health treatment. Has you bringing this all to light affected your new job that you took after leaving Rikers? No, it hasn't. People at my new job have been very supportive. And, you know, I work for a supervised release program. so I'm helping individuals not go to Rikers.

So I've worked with people on parole. I worked with people on Rikers. And now I'm helping people not go to Rikers. So everybody's been really supportive. What are your parents thinking about it? They're very proud. You know, when the news article came out, my mom bought like five copies of the newspaper

and even my family in Poland. Like, they're very proud. Do you wish that you never took that job at Rikers? No. I always say it was such a difficult experience, but I think I needed to be there, even for that short period of time to expose what it's really, what's happening. Because if I wouldn't, then like this would still be going on, you know? And I don't know what's currently going on there. Like, I do have one friend that I talk to because everybody else stopped communicating with me.

people that I thought were my friends and were against all of this, just don't talk to me anymore. So he did tell me that like people are not being deadlocked anymore. But that was like in the beginning. So when I heard that, I was like, wow, I can't believe like I did that where like nobody in the mental health units is locked in. Like I never thought that would be possible because there were just so many people deadlocked in each mental health unit that like nobody is locked in.

Like it's like a miracle. Has this made you kind of alter your plans for forensics at all? Well, this really, I believe, like, this kind of work I'll be doing for the rest of my life, for sure. Like, this is what I'm going to be fighting for and advocating for. You know, I didn't just have this story come out, just to come out. Like, I want to, like, help change the system. So, like, it didn't end with the story coming out. Like, this is something I'm going to be advocating and it's going to become my life work.

Do you see yourself going to another state to work? work in that criminal justice field? I don't know if I could work in a prison or a jail again. I don't know. But I can definitely, I want to work to like change policies that impact, you know, prisons and people incarcerated. You know, I could see myself maybe working in a prison, like doing consulting and like helping like change things or like run certain programs.

What do you think is the most important policy? say that needs to change. Definitely solitary confinement because in New York City, local law 402 was passed, but then the mayor in July veto it, and that's why they do allow solitary confinement. However, it's not supposed to be done to people with the severe mental illness. And even solitary confinement, you're supposed to be out. I think it's like for two hours or something. It depends where.

out to like take a shower or participate in programming. Like what I'm talking about is like deadlocking where like nobody is allowed out. What do they teach you in school about solitary confinement, if anything at all? That like it does not help the individual that it impacts the brain and that it causes trauma. So for, I think for anyone, a healthy human being who would be locked in a cell would go crazy. and now you have individuals who already have a severe mental illness. Like I think, like I don't know what I would do if I was locked in a cell. And I'm watching other people participate in a program, play games, go to recreation,

and I can use the phone to call my family or I can't come out and do rec. And I'm just locked in a cell watching everyone do all these things. Like I would go crazy also. You know, it's a human rights violation. These individuals, they're already in jail. they're already facing the consequences. And like I said, in Rikers, more than 90% have not been convicted of a crime. And in New York City, most people take plea deals.

It's like, I think, 93%. It's a very high percent in New York City where people take a plea deal. So like we don't know if they committed the crime or not. But even if somebody did commit the crime, they're in jail. They're facing the consequences. like we shouldn't have, we can't allow for people to violate their human rights. So do you believe in solitary for the use of separation purposes only? Like say one inmate stabs another inmate.

What do you do with that inmate that did the stabbing? I mean, I think maybe transferred of the unit or like, I don't know, have some kind of program where the issues can be resolved. But if it's a, you know, physical risk, then like transfer to another unit. So you think long term, if solitary does ever get banned or go away fully, that would be the solution for that? Yeah, there's a prison in Colorado where they don't have any solitary confinement. It took them, I think, five years to get rid of it and they operate completely different. I don't know all the specifics, but I know there is no solitary confinement. And I do know some advocates who went and visited that prison and they're able to do it.

And it takes a lot of work and officers have to have. to be trained, you know, in mental health. But they don't have solitary confinement. Yeah, I feel like if you give more privileges and take away that threat of kind of solitary, but put the threat of you're going to leave this great facility. Yeah. If you, you know, mess up, then that's kind of an incentive right there. Yeah. Yeah.

So I think it is possible. And just going back to solitary confinement, I remember seeing my patients deadlocked. And I would always think like, you know, That is someone's son. That's someone's brother. Like, it could be any of us or a family member that's found in that situation. And I always thought, like, don't the officers think about, like, okay, what if that was my family member? Like, would they want their family member to be treated this way?

Like, at the end, like, of the day. Like, this is a human being. And that's why it's important to have these conversations because there are a lot of people that don't have someone that they love or a friend or family member in the, criminal justice system that are kind of just interested in hearing, you know, the crime stories but don't understand how the treatment goes on. And then there are the people that do have that in someone that they care about in prison. So they can kind of hear this and advocate for it too. Yeah. And what I also found is like I saw a pattern of how the individuals that they would deadlock would be individuals who were like lower functioning, maybe had some developmental

mental disabilities who didn't have support in the community. So I saw other patients assault other patients and they were never locked in. And I'm not saying they should be locked in. But those individuals were on the phone with their wives all day. So the officers knew if they deadlock this person, their family is going to be calling the jail and finding out like why isn't my loved one calling me. It's been like four hours and they haven't called me. So I saw that they would like do it to certain people who they knew don't speak to their lawyers often. You know, don't have that outside support for anyone to advocate for them.

How can someone that has a loved one or maybe someone that's just interested in helping out with reform with the criminal justice as to making the changes your talk about, how can they help out? So there's a lot of organizations that are doing this work that I was able to work with because of all of this. One organization is Freedom Agenda, and it's run by people who have been incarcerated on Rikers, and they're leading the campaign to close Rikers. So they could definitely get involved in organizations like that. And they have different rallies. You know, they go up to Albany to help change laws and pass bills that impact people that are incarcerated. What would you say is your one piece of advice to the audience that's listening about the, you know,

criminal justice system or, you know, everything you've talked about today. One piece of advice is that like not everything is what it seems like. And I think you really have to like, I think proximity is so important. And that's why like I decided to work there because I really wanted to like see what it's like in the inside. Like I said, I've heard about Rikers. I watch the Kalibrater documentary. I watch all these documentaries. I read articles.

But I think you really have to get close and like see what's actually really happened. because the media is not going to tell you. Like I said, I've read stories about Rikers, we all did. But nobody knew that this was happening in the mental health units. And I think that's why this story got so big because this is the most vulnerable population. And nobody knew that it was so widespread because no one has reported it. Yeah. Well, Justina, I appreciate you coming on the show today and sharing your story and doing your first ever video podcast.

Yeah. I feel honored. Yeah, thank you so much. It's great to like tell my story and, yeah, to be able to tell how it really is. Awesome. And we'll have links to your social media or whatever you want out there in the description in this episode so people can reach out to you and find you. Yeah.

Thank you so much. Thank you.