Locked On ACC - Daily College Football & Basketball Podcast - Florida State Seminoles' Legal Battle: Settlement on the Horizon? | UNC to SEC?

Starting point is 00:00:00 What happens next in the legal disputes between the ACC, Florida State, and Clemson, and North Carolina, they're trying to get out too? You are Locked on ACC, your daily podcast on the Atlantic Coast Conference. Part of the Locked on Podcast Network, your team every day. Shout out to the everydayers and thank you so much for making Locked on ACC your first listen and your first watch today. He is Kenton Gibbs from Lockdown Wolfpack. I am Alex Dono from Lockdown Canes. We're part of the awesome lockdown podcast network. Your team every day on this episode, we got to talk some ACC hoops because Miami, Miami won another games.

Starting point is 00:00:45 I've got to celebrate something. They're on that ACC tournament bubble. But folks, there's been so much talked about in recent weeks. The ACC, I should say ESPN, exercising the option to extend those ACC TV rights through 2036. Are they moving towards a settlement with Florida State and Clemson? What's going on with North Carolina? Kenton and I can talk about this stuff until we're blue in the face, but neither of us are lawyers. So our guest today, he's a friend of the show, attorney Doug Rohan from Rohan Law, who is not specifically working on these cases, but he follows them very closely, which we appreciate.

Starting point is 00:01:25 So first and foremost, Doug, you know, when the news less than two weeks ago came out about ESPN exercising the extension, A lot of those reports ESPN, CBS sports, and others, Yahoo, had lines about how, and it sounds like they're also moving towards settlements with Florida State and Clemson. They kind of slapped that into the end of those reports. Do you think that's accurate? Well, every day that we move forward, every hour that passes, we're closer to a settlement because this case is going to settle at some point. How much closer is a very different question?

Starting point is 00:02:03 I'm not going to lie. I was very disappointed that ESPN exercised its rights before we had a settlement, because look, when it comes to the law, you have the pressure of certain deadlines to move the needle. When parties are intractable when they are dug into their position, these kinds of deadlines are what can move things forward. So February 1st being the deadline for ESPN to exercise as option, I said repeatedly on your show and some of the other shows, I thought that that was really going to be one of the pressure points that, got the parties to the table to talk seriously. Now, it's still possible that that happened. ESPN did exercise its option to extend this to 2036. I'm of the belief. No inside information, not talking to anybody, but just understanding how the negotiations would work and how the discussions

Starting point is 00:02:52 when. I believe that somebody somewhere has at least a one-page memo that roughly outlines what the parties are willing to agree to. I don't think ESPN would have taken this opportunity to lock in the ACC for another 10 years without having assurances that either Clemson or Flores State were in for the long haul or at least we're willing to put aside the litigation based on some concessions. And we'll talk about that in a moment, but I still think somebody somewhere at least has a memo with the basic framework of how these cases are going to resolve, whether that's in weeks or months remains to be seen. Well, I think that that's the one point that you are not greatly disagree on, Doug,

Starting point is 00:03:36 because I'm looking at this thing, and I said from the jump, the ACC has, I'm sorry, ESPN has the ACC over a barrel. Why would they walk away from this deal? So I'm looking at this deal and I'm saying, even if Clemson and Florida State were not guaranteed to be locked in, even in the numbers where you look at, well, hey, your two big brands will not be there to supply you with the same amount long term, ESPN still came out of winning. And you know Disney like I know Disney. Disney, the monster never been about losing no money.

Starting point is 00:04:09 So with that in mind, right, one of the major points that you talked about the first time you came here was the fact that there were no guarantees. The amount that the ACC put forth was punitive, especially given the fact that the ACC had no defendant of out that they were going to be paying over these years due to they're not being guaranteed. Now that there is a guarantee, does that at all work to the detriment of Florida State's case to the benefit of the ACC, vice versa? Or is it like, hey, that's a non-secretary? It doesn't matter in this environment. No, this is hugely advantageous to the ACC. One of the strongest arguments that Florida State and Clemson had was that there was no liquidated damages. Since there was no agreement beyond 2027, you couldn't put a figure on that. And of course, the best case scenario for

Starting point is 00:04:57 Clemson and Florida State would have been ESPN not exercising the option because then the agreement ends in 2027. So simply the fact that ESPN signed on the dotted line. And Ken, you're not wrong. ESPN is getting the ACC package at such a discount rate that perhaps the numbers work even without Clemson and Florida State being part of the fold. Let's talk about possible concessions because, you know, anytime there's a good settlement, both sides are going to feel like they're losing something and giving something up, right? And, you know, in terms of the ACC, there's a few things we've heard about,

Starting point is 00:05:33 like the success initiative, which is going to happen, which is based on competitive. If you win more in football and basketball, you advance through the playoff and through the tournament, you get extra. money revenue-wise. And then they're also talking about this brand initiative, which I know is a little bit controversial. And this seems like this is something that Florida State and Clemson both wanted where, you know, you have more fans, you have better team ratings, you sell more merch, you make more money for the conference. You make more, you know, the Florida states and the Clemsons

Starting point is 00:06:05 make more than the Wake Forest than the Boston colleges of the world. So are those the concessions? you see the ACC probably possibly giving up here? And is that enough to make Florida State and Clemson somewhat happy? Well, first, as we just celebrated two days ago on February 10th, the new FSU 2 and 10 day, Florida State did not do itself any favors with respect to the success initiative. You know, we were banging our drum and getting the concession from the ACC for the success initiative.

Starting point is 00:06:36 And congratulations, Georgia Tech. You got all the money. You're the one that got the most eyeballs and had. the most success. Of course, SMU and Clemson, they split a bunch of the additional money as well, but Florida State did itself no favors this year with the record that they had. So this concession or talk about additional brand value, I think, was first in reaction to such a terrible season. The numbers were still there, whether people were hate watching Florida State or just enjoying the car crash that it was, people still watched. And Florida State wants those numbers.

Starting point is 00:07:08 The reality, though, is what kind of numbers are we talking about? You know, the success initiative was, you know, a pool of $20 million total, if I remember correctly. And so that was split among four or five teams. So $5 million, $4 million going. The gap after 2027 is $30 million to the SEC schools. We're not talking about a figure that's going to come even remotely close to that for Clemson and Florida State. There's no way that as part of this agreement, ESPN, who again, is chasing the discount is also saying, by the way, yeah, we'll put another $40 million

Starting point is 00:07:43 into the kitty. Or really, it needs to be closer to $100 million if it's going to be split between four or five different teams. So even if they were to come up with a figure to add to the annual payouts to Clemson and Florida State, I can't imagine that that number is higher than $5 or $6 million. And that's not sufficient. So that's what leaves a question of a settlement still in limbo because a settlement is going to need a number closer to 15 or 20 million dollars. That's when Clemson will be okay with and Florida State will be okay with saying, okay, well, stay until 2031. That's the other part of it is did they chop some time off the grant of rights instead of 2036 being the ultimatum? Do we have some agreement to announce our withdrawal at

Starting point is 00:08:29 2029 for an actual withdrawal at 2031. That would be in line with the other conference contracts that are up. That would be consistent with the idea of a new realignment phase. So that's the type of concession that paired with a substantial increase in money could make a settlement agreement feasible for both sides. So tell me this, because I keep hearing settlement. But on the other hand, I keep hearing everybody say, hey, the ACC is in a position of strength. at the moment. So explain to me and explain to anybody who is either pro-ACC, anti-floor state, whatever it is. Somebody who is looking at this saying, I'm confused on where a sudden is, because I'm one of those people, very honestly. I'm confused as to why if I'm the ACC,

Starting point is 00:09:15 the deal is locked in, everything is signed, the strongest point of contention for you or the strongest point of your argument is, in effect, no longer effective. What is the motivation for the ACC to say, you know what? Cool. We're going to go ahead. and kind of, you know, sit down at the table, settle this thing out, make even more concessions than the already original concessions of, hey, if you win more, you will get, what is DacC's motivation? I can see two angles to this. The first one, the ESPN angle, the angle that I had hoped for as of February 1st.

Starting point is 00:09:50 And that is ESPN saying, we are going to sign this extension, but we can't handle this PR nightmare. We can't handle this family squabble that you all have. going on. So ESPN, one, could exert pressure on the ACC to make concessions. Two, ESPN can add more money to the kitty to help fund those concessions. So that's one angle, the ESPN pressure point. The second part is just the reality of litigation. The ACC, if they want to buckle down and get in this for the long haul, guys, we've been friends for almost two years now. And we don't even know where this case is going to be tried yet. This is going to drag out until,

Starting point is 00:10:29 2030, 2031, 2032, before we get into any appreciable decisions by a court. We're starting depositions. Our former president has a Valentine's date with the attorneys for the ACC to give his deposition tomorrow, and that's going to be the way he's going to spend his Thursday afternoon. So that's the first of 100 depositions that we're going to have, 80 depositions we're going to have. The discovery process itself is going to drag out for two years. So the ACC looks at this and says we can't handle the PR backlash.

Starting point is 00:11:04 We can't handle the black eye. FSU and Clemson can't spend another $3 million in litigation costs over the next two years. So that's when both parties start talking about, okay, what does it take to really get this behind us? I'm not inside those rooms. I'm not having those conversations. But that is why there's still a reasonable likelihood of some kind of settlement. even if it's Clemson and FSU, tucking their tail between their legs and saying, we miscalculated, we didn't think ESPN would go for the extension, now that they have cats out of the bag,

Starting point is 00:11:37 give us something, give us something to say, this is good enough. And frankly, reducing the payout from 2036 to 2031. If that's all there is, that's a significant chunk of change. Well, while this is going on, these public fights between ESO, between the ACC, Clemson and Florida State. There's also a matter of North Carolina. What's going on with the Tar Heels? We'll discuss with Doug Rohan attorney at law next here on Locked on ACC.

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Starting point is 00:13:11 NIL, the legal stuff that we're talking about today. So make sure you check that out free, wherever you get your podcast free on YouTube. We're joined here by attorney Doug Rohan, who follows these Florida State and Clemson cases very closely. And Doug, we were talking a little bit off air about what's going on with North Carolina as well. Over the past couple weeks, there's been smoke that the, the, Tar Heels and the SEC have mutual interest. What's going on there? Look, I don't know how this is going to pan out in the long run,

Starting point is 00:13:39 but I think you can ultimately put this in an academic business school study on how to work a deal, how to work an angle. You had UNC from the very beginning, being aggressive against Florida State and Clemson, saying, you know, they just need to stay in the fold, comply, make sure that you're cooperating. This is not a big deal. This is just how business has done. But it appears that behind the scenes,

Starting point is 00:14:07 they have invested over $600,000 in legal fees in conference realignment talks and questions, trying to figure out what their angles are. Matt Baker, formerly of the Tampa Bay Times, now working for the Atlantic, put out an article, suggesting that he had secured some documentation showing through public records that this investment was taken place. Then you add to that this discussion that came out around the same time the ACC ESPN contract was being signed that Clemson and Florida State are noisemakers, but really UNC is the prized school that's out there for conference relignment.

Starting point is 00:14:45 Then you add to it the Bill Belichick higher and raising the profile and talking about, you know, what UNC can do on the national stage. They're going to take Coach Prime spot in terms of everybody nationally wanting to watch. So it has been a quiet but progressive succession of UNC dipping their toes out there trying to figure out what the public perception is. And frankly, while the ACC is trying to say everything's kosher, everything's calm, everything's going well, ESPN signed the extension, and now, yes, we're going to figure something out with Clemson and Florida State, but everything's hunky dory. Now we have this report that comes out that seems to indicate maybe behind the scenes things aren't as calm and relaxed. as we were being led to believe. I see that grin on Kenton's face. Kent and Kent, go for it.

Starting point is 00:15:33 Because this makes me want to monologue about the fact that who knew those clowns over at Chapel Hill would be the ones to blow it all up. Oh, former quarterback and athletic director, John Swofford, and his son, Chad, who somehow ended up as the director of new media, and is now the executive vice president over there at Raytown.

Starting point is 00:15:56 The SBA? Who could have thought that that would be the moment? And now we're talking about Bill Belichick and the draw that he'll be, except there's one main difference between him and Coach Prime, also known as Dion Sanders. Coach Brown coached at the high school level, then worked his way up to college. When he got to college, he coached out a D2 HBCU for a few years.

Starting point is 00:16:18 Then he jumped on to a power-for bandwagon, a little bit different from a Bill Belichick. But in all of that, I want to ask you this, though, when looking at UNC as a potential prize, is there anything in here that would make sense logically to you? Because I'm looking at UNC saying they're a basketball school. Everybody knows they're at basketball school. Basketball is their big draw. Cool. The problem is basketball ain't driving realignment.

Starting point is 00:16:48 Nobody's picking up the phone for Kansas. Nobody's saying, hey, Georgetown, come on. We want you. We want you back. come join us in a new pack 12. It's not happening for a reason. So is there anything that you're working out in your legal mind or anything on those lines? Where would even make sense for those for, you know, potentially the Big Ten and the SEC to want to vote you and see? If you take a step back at the broader picture on conference realignment and look at the

Starting point is 00:17:17 available properties, there are no top tier unaffiliated properties. So if you come to the conclusion that you have to start looking at affiliated brands, then you have to start with saying, okay, well, we've already got the SEC and the Big Ten. Those are the primary conferences. Everybody else is second tier. Who in those second tier conferences have money? Because, again, we talk about revenue from a standpoint of commercials. We talk about revenue from a standpoint of ticket sales. We talk about revenue from a standpoint of tuition sizes. No one ever talks about endowments. And if you want to talk about the schools that have billions of dollars in endowments,

Starting point is 00:18:06 those are the stable groups out there. And UNC, Duke, although they're not huge draws from a football perspective, they're huge financial resources. And if and when there comes this house settlement, this idea that we have to pay players, You don't want to bring in a new partner who then is declaring bankruptcy 36 months later because they've bitten off more they can chew. So you have the smoke with Bill Belichick, you have the public infrastructure that just spent a bunch of money on their stadium over there. You know that they at least have had a decent football program in the last 15 years on occasion.

Starting point is 00:18:42 But the real key there is they are so rich. They have so much money. And I've got to believe that behind the scenes, that's one of the factors that these conferences are looking at as well. Being the cheese of wine crowd is finally paid off for UNC. Good for that. Well, I am curious about something before we let Doug Rohan run, because one of the things that I enjoy about you on social media, you can follow Doug at Rohan Law PC on X is whenever these hearings are happening, like you do a great job of kind of breaking down either the hearings or the legal documents that are filed. Are there any court dates or hearings on the horizon? Is there anything set in stone or are we kind of in a holding pattern?

Starting point is 00:19:25 That's a great question. And of course, the reason why we're here is to just update people generally. As it stands right now, I believe there is a Clemson court date coming up. And admittedly, we've talked about it before. I don't follow a Clemson suit as much as the FSU suit. It's not going to be anything really of substance. The only substantive things happening are the FSU case in Leon County. going up to the Florida State Supreme Court on a discussion of whether or not there is jurisdiction in Florida. There's this fight about who filed first, whether or not Judge Cooper over-extended his interpretation of extraordinary efforts, whether or not it was appropriate for Leon County to go ahead and move forward when North Carolina was filed the day before, and North Carolina already had their initial hearings. So that, unfortunately, might be the next hearing, but it's not going to be for three or four more months. The ACC just filed their brief.

Starting point is 00:20:28 Now Florida State gets to file their brief. And one thing that the Supreme Court can do is say, we're happy with the rulings below. We don't even want to hear it. If that's the case, then we get a substantive ruling in the next 90 days. What's more likely is the Supreme Court is going to say, yeah, we do want to hear this case. Let's put it on the calendar in July. Once we hear the hearing in July, let's wait until August or September to render an opinion. And then all that's going to do is push the case back down to the lower courts to then start over. Now, or not start over, but to continue. Part of what they are fighting over is whether or not the case should continue. both parties have agreed to start the discovery process, which is why we have depositions starting tomorrow.

Starting point is 00:21:13 So it's almost a moot issue, and that's why I keep telling people, there's no rulings of substance that are coming anytime soon. There's no judge that's going to rule on the merits of the case in 2025. It might not get ruled on in 26. So for those reasons, I'm not on the shows every week or every month. you know, we're just kind of putting on the back burner. I'll explain documents when they come out and filings when they come out. But settlement is likely to happen sooner than any substantive court rulings. The law doesn't always move swiftly.

Starting point is 00:21:48 It's a lot of billable hours for the lawyers who are involved with this. Doug Rohan, Rohan Law, we appreciate your time as always. Thank you so much for the updates. And the next time we do get updates, we'd love to have you back. Thank you so much for doing this. Y'all take care. You do that. I love it.

Starting point is 00:22:04 Well, you know, Ken, I'm finally excited to talk some ACC basketball. My hurricanes aren't going to be in the NCAA tournament. They might not be in the ACC tournament even, but at least they're starting to play for Bill Courtney. They're starting to win some games. But I do want to talk about the bigger landscape in the ACC because Clemson, Clemson is peaking at the right time. You want to keep it locked right here on this brand new episode of LockdowneACC.

Starting point is 00:22:36 Thank you for making us your first listen and your first watch today. Make sure you check out our other shows. and Gibson and Grayson Boone do an awesome job hosting Locked-on Wolfpack. I host Locked on Cain's. So between NC State, Miami, we have you covered on all those things. We cover everything else here on Locked on ACC. All right. So, you know, we should probably start with Clemson because, you know,

Starting point is 00:22:56 I can't start the segment with Miami after they win their second ACC game of the season. No, no, anybody trying to hear that, Donald. And nobody trying to hear that. How many ACC wins does NC State have? NC State do, I'm sorry, NC State, Miami and Boston College are all tied with two. The only difference is Miami has 11 losses, so there are half game behind Boston College and NC State. But guess what? All three teams out of the tournament if it started today.

Starting point is 00:23:24 It's the bottom three, right? The bottom three? Yeah, I wasn't sure if it was the bottom two or the, I think it is the bottom three. I think you're right about that. So it'll be those three teams on the outside left looking in if the season ended today. Yeah, has anybody maybe in the country, let alone the ACC, raised their stock more in the past week? And, of course, most of that was beating Duke on Saturday,

Starting point is 00:23:48 beating North Carolina on Monday. It was not the same caliber of victory. But now the Clemson Tigers can say this season they beat in Kentucky, it was number four at the time, beat Duke, who was number two at the time, and they beat North Carolina, who may not be themselves this year. But that's a blue blood of a program. and, you know, Kenton, we've had this conversation before. Like, who's the second best team in the ACC behind Duke?

Starting point is 00:24:12 I was unsure about the answer a few days ago, but now my answer is Clemson. You know, Clemson is absolutely making a strong case for themselves. And you cannot come away with a top 10 win in conference. And we don't say you're making a strong case for yourself. If you watch the squad, which, by the way, you're missing out if you don't watch this week. So it'll be a great time. If you don't, if you haven't seen the last week's episode, last installment of it, you know, our local Louisville host,

Starting point is 00:24:39 Dalton Pence said, hey, I would even have to tip my cap, take a step back and say Clems is the second best if they beat Duke, that if became a win because it happened. So with that in mind, I mean, I don't really have too much of an argument for anybody else. Louisville could continue chopping wood and carrying water, but until you get a marquee win, like beating a Duke, like beating a team of that caliber, which the conference, unfortunately,

Starting point is 00:25:08 doesn't feature any other of right now. You cannot make that claim to the throne, even if you have the head-to-head one. And let's keep that in mind. Let's keep that in frame. There is still a head-to-head win between these two teams, which Louisville claims,

Starting point is 00:25:22 which makes it closer. But again, beating this team and beating them late. It's a lot like, Dono, you remember, you grew up with the BCS and all that. You grew up with the computers. I'm a big fan of the beat.

Starting point is 00:25:33 I want to, bring the BCS back. I'm tired of this committee nonsense. So you remember back in the day, you could lose early. Just don't lose late. Whatever you do, do not lose late. You do that, you're going to be in trouble. And it's the same kind of thing here. It's just the opposite. We've got the big wind coming from Clemson late. If Louisville can match that, if they can come up with a huge wind down to stress themselves, then they could absolutely have that conversation. Unfortunately, the rest of Louisville schedule looks like so. NC State. Notary, day, Florida State, Virginia Tech, Pete, Cal, Stanford.

Starting point is 00:26:08 So they don't even have the opportunity before the tournament to pop out with another one of these. Yeah. And, you know, in that ACC tournament, you get, I think there's going to be some debate on the next squad episode about what UNC needs to get in, because the, the, the bracketologists still have them, you know, way higher than they should because I was kind of looking at UNC and saying they may have to win the ACC tournament to get into the, into the NCAA tournament. but apparently they've got their spot locked up just because they're UNC. You know, Don't don't piss me off today. I'm having a good day.

Starting point is 00:26:42 I'm having a good day, Don't tell me what the bracket folks are talking about at the ESPN. Because again, in what world is this version of the Dirty Foot Club, a UNA lock for the NCAA tournament? Who have they beaten? What have they done to say, you know what? There's a definitive case. There's a solid case for this team being in the NCAA tournament. turn. Who, when? If we're having a discussion about, oh, well, you know, Climson, maybe the second best team in the conference for beating this team, well, what does it say if the team that got

Starting point is 00:27:14 absolutely drubbed by? I mean, that game got so ugly. I was glad it was on January 31st. We were going to have to raise some serious questions about the duo of conipolate flag. We were going to have to ask some questions. Actually, a little, let me say, I'm looking at the updated ESPN Bracketology. And so they, they do, there is some justice, because they do now, this has been updated, I think, since the last time I looked at it early in the week. They do have UNC as among the first four out, along with VCU, Arkansas, and SMU. So they're not giving them as much love as I thought they were, probably after that drubbing that they suffered to Clemson on Monday night. Can I just ask a question?

Starting point is 00:27:53 So if their first four out, does that mean that Stanford, Wake Forest, SMU, Louisville, or actually not Louisville, But Stanford, Wake Forest, SMU, and Louisville all in? Does that mean all those teams? Because they're all ahead of UNC in conference. I think so, yeah, without looking through combing through the entire bracket. I think that those are in. Okay. Well, I'm comfortable with that thing.

Starting point is 00:28:19 Because, again, what I don't want to see. And again, I'm not just upset about, oh, UNC is having success. So they're predicted as a conference. NCA term of a team. That's not at all the problem. The problem I have is when sometimes big brands and whatnot jump teams that are in front of them. They're like, oh, well, we, you know, we don't have to explain anything to anybody. We just believe this team is better just because they're better.

Starting point is 00:28:44 If the ACC has five, six, seven teams in and UNC happens to be at the bottom of those things, hey, I'm mad at it. Go ahead, let them on into the tournament, you know, let them get on the national state. Let's see if they can pull off a miracle running out. Yeah, yeah. Well, we will see what happens. I know, I know Kenton, you were impressed on Tuesday night watching Miami beat the fighting Jackson Holzers. And I will say, man, I reached out, you know, two very bad teams this year. But it's like, for as bad as Miami has been, it's like, man, how bad is Syracuse that they couldn't

Starting point is 00:29:18 beat Miami's? I was texting with Jackson afterwards. I think he did a postgame reaction right after he told me he was going to torch everybody on Syracuse. I mean, Syracuse has fallen. I mean, Miami has fallen pretty far. They're in the final four or two years. ago, but Syracuse has also fallen pretty hard since the Beheim retirement. Oh, absolutely. Retirement, refirement, whatever it was. It was a mess with Beheim at the end. You know, it didn't really give you an opportunity to get a new guy in the program.

Starting point is 00:29:46 Instead, they get one of his offshoots, which, again, is one of the biggest things I've been a massive proponent against. Stop the incestuous. Stop the, oh, we need to get one of our guys to be the next head coach. It doesn't work like that. There are very few universities that have the mechanisms and levers necessary to say, hey, it makes sense for us to put one of our guys. There are guys who are having success like that. We're not going to not acknowledge Shire and what a stunning success. That has been.

Starting point is 00:30:16 Absolutely. Everybody else? You know, go get somebody that's going to bring something different, something new to your program. Amen to that. Well, we appreciate everybody tuning in. Thank you so much for making Lockdown ACC your first listen and your first watch. A huge thanks to Doug Rohan for doing some heavy lifting with us on all this legal talk about settlements. And the UNC stuff, we haven't talked about that probably enough here on Locked on ACC.

Starting point is 00:30:46 Because it doesn't make Kenton happy. We like to keep Kenton happy here. That was some interesting stuff as well. We'll talk to you guys next time on another episode of Lockdown ACC. We are part of the awesome lockdown podcast network, your team. every day.

Locked On ACC - Daily College Football & Basketball Podcast - Florida State Seminoles' Legal Battle: Settlement on the Horizon? | UNC to SEC?

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