Locked On ACC - Daily College Football & Basketball Podcast - NCAA Is Going To Make NIL Into An Even Bigger Mess | Why Jim Phillips Has No Choice But To FIGHT

Starting point is 00:00:00 The NCAA is trying to fix all the things you don't like about NIL, but they'll probably just make it worse. You are Locked on ACC, your daily podcast on the Atlantic Coast Conference. Part of the Locked On Podcast Network, your team, every day. Shout out to the everydayers, and thank you so much for making Locked on ACC your first listen and your first watch today. We're available free wherever you get your podcast. We're free on YouTube. We're part of the Lockdown Podcast Network. your team every day.

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Starting point is 00:00:57 We'll talk about a statement that the commissioner made that was probably an exaggeration this past week at media days. but we'll also discuss why Jim Phillips, ACC, commission has no choice but to fight with Florida State and Clemson until the bitter end here. But Kenton Gibbs, finally we've had a court filing for this House versus NCAA settlement. Now, this is still going to take up to several months for this settlement to be approved and to come into effect, but we're moving a step closer into the House versus NCAA antitrust.

Starting point is 00:01:34 settlement being a reality and just a refresher on what the settlement is. And by the way, I've got this directly from NCAA.org. So this is not, you know, some reporters attempted. Clickbait or whatever. The settlement, they say, addresses three primary issues, payment of back damages for claims relating to name image and likeness, academic related awards and other benefits, increased benefits from institutions to student athletes going forward, including additional NIL opportunities for student athletes directly with the

Starting point is 00:02:04 institution and eliminating scholarship limits in favor of roster limits. Now, some of these provisions, Kenton, that are coming to light now that there are court filings and people can actually read and look into this, as pointed out by Darren Heitner, who's a sports and entertainment attorney, he says, hey, one of the many terrible provisions of the House versus NCAA settlement allows the NCAA to subjectively decide whether an NIL payment is for a valid business purpose, and if it constitutes fair market value, it feels like we're taking many steps backwards. And he was comment tweeting on an ex post from Blake Lawrence who said, the House NCAA settlement

Starting point is 00:02:48 allows the NCAA to prohibit booster payments above fair market value. They don't require all NIL deals to be fair market value, only booster deals, where he notes, if the goal is to prevent circumvention either one, booster definition must be airtight or two, all deals must be fair market value. So Kenton, this sounds like the NCAA is going to need to pick and choose. Who's a booster and who isn't? And what constitutes fair market value and what doesn't?

Starting point is 00:03:19 This sounds like a huge mess. You smell that, don't know. You smell it. It smells like the smell of fresh lawsuits on the way for the NCAA. What are you? This is not going well. They are trying to cling to every last bit of power that they can possibly get before this thing shuts all the way down, which to me is complete and utter idiocy. You have had the, this is upsetting me so much because this settlement is from you getting the wheels whipped off you in court. And included in the settlement is things that's just going to have you back in. court getting the wheels whipped off of you once again. I don't understand. It is so confusing. This is like your friend that's been married seven times saying, I know this is the one. We're going to a lope in Vegas this weekend. Have you learned nothing? Have you learned nothing?

Starting point is 00:04:15 Where did you meet this last wife? Oh, I met her at divorce court. Buddy, do the math. This is not going to work out well for anybody. The NCAA has no ability to define what is and is not a legitimate business purpose. If Dono Incorporated wanted to pay me a million dollars to show up and shake hands with your kid, take pictures and, you know, pretend to sell a car every now and in, or being a commercial for, hey, Dono Inc.'s got the best bets. If you want to do any bet and come to Dono Inc. We've got mad men who bet on FC Milan all the time over here.

Starting point is 00:04:53 If that's what you want to pay me a million dollars to do, how can they determine it's not worth that? how? By what metric and standard would you determine, oh, that's not actually it. It's foolishness. Yeah, no, it's an absolute mess when it's like you try to set this standard for what's fair market value and what's not. Well, I mean, I always learned, especially in this country that, you know, the price is what someone's willing to pay. Like, you can't really say, oh, he overpaid for that.

Starting point is 00:05:21 Well, if he was willing to pay it, then that's the price. So this sounds like an absolute mess to me. So something else that, and let me actually, I got further info from directly from the NCAA's website, by the way. There's a whole section in there on this news report that they just put out, the statement that the NCAA just put out about the House versus NCAA settlement. There's a section in their statement called unresolved issues. So I don't know if a lot of people know about this, but we still have a long way to go before this really makes sense and before it's ratified. they say while approval of the settlement would be a significant step forward, there would still be pending issues to be addressed that highlight the continuing need for federal legislation. These issues include, number one, the settlement does not resolve the patchwork of state laws, many of which may conflict with the settlement. These laws will need to be preempted by federal legislation in order for the settlement to be effective. And then the other part is the settlement does not address ongoing efforts to designate student athletes as employees under the state and federal labor and employment laws.

Starting point is 00:06:29 These efforts by the NLRB and plaintiff's attorneys pose a direct threat to both the sustainability of sports programs and to the baseline of support provided to all athletes. And actually with the whole thing about whether you're an employee or not, I actually thought that the ACC Commissioner had kind of a good explanation on that because I had been kind of confused. The SEC Commissioner recently made a comment about how, oh, well, student athlete, you know, they've told me, no one has ever told me, I want to be taxed like an employee.

Starting point is 00:07:01 And my reaction was, doesn't everybody get taxed on income, whether you're designated as an employee or not? But Phillips actually said something that made more sense. I guess there are big hurdles, Kenton, with international students. Right. A lot of people don't think about that. I mean, most, not all, most football players are American citizens, but not all. A lot of basketball players aren't.

Starting point is 00:07:23 A lot of golf players and tennis players. may not be citizens. So I guess it makes things more complicated for those who are on student visas to get taxed as an employee. Yeah, it's similar to how NIL works right now. Like, for example, most people don't know this. Foreign players cannot get NIL. None of them can. Like that's, it doesn't matter what country you're from.

Starting point is 00:07:44 I don't believe that any country has a tax code set up so that a player from, let's say, Mexico, Canada, Sudan, Nizier, France. None of them can get NIL. So, you know, I get it. I get that, you know, in the name of fairness, their countries could maybe work something out along the visas or something like that, or they could work out some specific deal. But again, we're grasping at straws here. We're fighting for relevancy and we're fighting for control

Starting point is 00:08:15 where you ultimately need to just let your hands off the wheel here and kind of let this thing take whatever wicked turds is going to take. you can then course correct afterwards. Because here what you're doing is you're trying to fight that turn that's happening anyway. You're fighting a losing battle and you're like, well, we'll just lose it more slowly. And I get how some people say that's ironic with us being locked on ACC Cole and say, oh, well, you know, you all are fighting the ultimate losing battle. It's slightly different in the manner that there is a win for the ACC even with both of these teams leaving.

Starting point is 00:08:47 There's not a win for the current athletes if they do not get that laborer or worker designation as opposed to student athlete. Because like you said, past a certain point, all funds are taxed anyway. Doesn't matter if you're a designated student athlete or worker, whatever the case may be. And even beyond that, again, you tell me how this engine sustains itself. You tell me why nobody else is considered anything other than a professional at their job that is surrounding the sport except for the people who walk away with torn Achilles. CTE, you know, blown biceps, back problems.

Starting point is 00:09:29 Those are the only people that are told that they're not workers in this. You're not going to tell Dabo you're a student. You're not going to tell Kirk Fowler you're a student or Lee Fawler, Lee Corsoe and Kirk Fowler. I don't know. Herb Street. Chris Fowler. Chris Fowler, Kirk Hurt. You're not going to tell them your students.

Starting point is 00:09:47 If you were to tell them, hey, you all are going to get paid in credits from now on that you wouldn't have a crew anymore. They'd all go do NFL or something or they go retire. So, you know, I really think there's a losing and immoral battle to continue to fight to meet, to make the people who are putting the ultimate price of their bodies on the line for this thing. You know, I think that it's foolish to try to keep them from being labeled as workers, but it is what it is. I get it. Everybody wants to keep their piece of the pie as large as possible, even if that means shrinking somebody else's. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I keep hearing from these lawyers that they have to find a way to get Congress involved and get this federal

Starting point is 00:10:27 preemption because like they said in that statement, state laws are so different. And that's another reason why a lot of these regulations are unenforceable. It's like, how do you decide who's a booster or who's not? What's fair market value in? What's not? And depending on what state you're in, some of them have much more NIL friendly laws. So it's like you can't enforce any of this stuff, but good luck trying. I mean, I'm glad players are going to be able to, you know, get paid these stipends now with the new settlement. But this NIL stuff is a mess. You and I both live below the Mason Dixon line. And you and I both know that whenever the federal government tries to trump states rights, things don't always go great down here.

Starting point is 00:11:07 So I'd love to see how this is going to work out in the end. Well, we got a lot more to talk about in this episode of Locked on ACC, including why the ACC commissioner is so adamant about. fighting during these legal disputes with Florida State and Clemson. I'm glad to see that Kenton and I are not the only two people who get it. Stuart Mandel from the Athletic absolutely gets it. You know what you want to do? We're only getting started. You want to keep it locked right here on this brand new episode of Locked on ACC.

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Starting point is 00:14:11 to get 50% off your first box plus 20% off your next month while your subscription is active. Thank you so much for making this episode of Lockdown ACCC, your first listen and your first watch today. He's Kenton Gibbs from Lockdown Wolfpack. I am Alex Dono from Locked on Cains. So I thought this was great, Kenton. I was going through some post-ACC kickoff material over the weekend. And I saw this mailbag that Stuart Mandel from the athletic, he was answering questions about the ACC kickoff last week, namely some of the things that

Starting point is 00:14:45 Commissioner Jim Phillips had to say in his Monday address. And he was asked this question by a reader. He said, hey, what are the optics of ACC Commissioner Jim Phillips repeatedly saying that the conference is going to fight when that means fighting conference members who are trying to get out of the league? He says, is it good? Is it bad? And I thought the answer from Mandel, it sounds a lot like stuff, Kenton, that you and I have

Starting point is 00:15:09 been saying for past several months, quite frankly, Mandel answers, does he have any other choice? The league is facing an existential crisis because of the actions of two of its members. Beyond just trying to win lawsuits, he needs to show his other 15 members that the conference is not going to bow down to Florida State and Clemson at their expense and try to prevent others from defecting as well. Frankly, it's about time Phillips embraced the cutthroat nature of his job because Greg Sanky, Brett Yoramark, and Tony Petiti, certainly have. And that's a great point he raises, Kenton, because prior to the ACC kickoff last week, you and I had, I think, justifiably accused Jim Phillips of not really having a

Starting point is 00:15:51 commissioner type of personality and quite frankly being boring. He was not boring last week. And the church said, amen, Donald, because you're preaching. You're preaching up there. You're absolutely right. He needed to have this moment of firiness, right? It's akin to what we call a Heisman moment amongst the players where you have that defining moment that you can look back at point to and say, this is where things were different. This is where this guy showed exactly what his medal is, what he's made of, because this is the reality. The fight or die is the reality.

Starting point is 00:16:24 If you let these teams out with $50 million being the exit fee and saying, oh, if you all want your rights, you can have your rights. Next thing you know, you would have a mass exodus on your hands. Whether those teams had a place to land or not, it wouldn't even be good for some of those teams to leave, but they would anyway, just because it's cheap and they got to say, oh, I'm out of the ACC now. And the perception here is so bad, from every report I'm hearing about the finances of the ACC, they're at a much stronger conference than we could imagine, much stronger than we could imagine. And yet, there's the public perception that because, you know, Jim Phillips

Starting point is 00:16:58 isn't outspoken, isn't fiery, isn't the, the wild man that your mark is, isn't the showman that, isn't the showman that Sanky is or, you know, hasn't inherited a golden goose like Petiti did. He's sitting here in a situation where you're perceived to be the worst of the power for when you're not.

Starting point is 00:17:19 You're objectively not. So to see that he's fighting back, he's saying, hey, I'm fighting for my conference. I'm fighting for the other member institutions. That is vitally important because it gives folks that sense of, you know what, we may not agree on everything. He may

Starting point is 00:17:35 I'd have been fought as hard as I've won them to in the beginning. But damn it he is fighting. He's doing something. There's a post there. I like it. And to your point, obviously not every team in the conference wants to leave. And so part of the fight that he is executing is, you know, if, and Florida State and Clemson, they're going to leave at some point.

Starting point is 00:17:55 It's just a matter of when and how much they have to pay to get out. And from Phillips's point of view, you want to make sure they're paying as much as you can possibly get out of them because you would assume that I would expect most of their exit fee or at least a big portion of it would be spread around the schools who stay in the ACC, that that would give them additional money. And so the other 15 who are, you know, not saying all of the other 15 want to be where they are, but at least they're not actively suing the conference. So they want the biggest payout possible when Florida State and Clemson get out. So that's part of what Petiti or not Petitia. That's part of what Phillips is.

Starting point is 00:18:34 fighting for. And you talk about the ACC's financial health. Here's another part of the Stuart Mandel answer on the mailbag. He said, while the Phillips fight comments made the headlines, another tidbit of this caught my eye. We knew the conference this year was beginning its new performance-driven incentive model, which will distribute postseason and certain other money based on college football playoff participation. The top 25 rankings, bowl appearances, and NCAA tournament performance is also part of that incentive model, he says. But I was a bit floored to see that an individual school can earn as much as 20 to 25 million extra. That's a lot, he said, were Florida State or Clemson to pocket 25 million on top of the 45 million that ACC schools received last year,

Starting point is 00:19:22 they would actually surpass what the Big 10 and SEC gave their schools last year. So, and obviously the incentive stuff, it's not guaranteed. that's why Florida State's not content with it because they would rather be guaranteed a certain amount of revenue. But hypothetically, Kenton, like Mandel said, if one of those teams were to win a national championship next year, they could actually end up getting more than SEC

Starting point is 00:19:45 and Big Ten members get. Insert the meme of the duck smoking a cigarette because, baby, I'm shaking my head just like that duck. I am very disappointed in both of these two schools, not because I believe that they're making bad decisions for themselves. I'm disappointed in these two schools because the more information comes out, the worst that this looks, not based on whether or not, you know, the guarantee versus the incentive thing, but just the objective reality of where they are, where their options to go are, and what you're leaving behind is becoming. Like the ACC by all accounts is only headed in an upward trajectory even without those two. And it's like, wait, what?

Starting point is 00:20:31 How did this happen? But again, that's the, and I hate to say this, but the American in us likes the big brass showman. We love the, oh, it's ornate. It's happening. It's the new thing. We love that sales aspect of it. But there is an objective reality behind that because with sales has to be partnered some product or service. With that like, hey, I'm selling you a thing.

Starting point is 00:20:55 It's the greatest thing ever. It's this bottle of water. ever seen a bottle of water like it before, I have to give you quality water on the back end. It feels to me like Jim Phillips is actually developing a very quality water filtration system, but we're just not paying attention because he's not advertising it like it's the greatest bottle ever. And he's secretly doing an amazing job of digging us out of holes that we were dug into by folks who are his predecessors, folks who he had nothing to do with. He inherited a mess.

Starting point is 00:21:26 But I'll be damned if I can't say he's cleaning it up pretty well. And when it comes to, and I do think Phillips, he's adopting a bit of that salesman mentality. Did he say something, though, that went too far? We'll talk about that when we come back. You want to keep it locked right here. We're not done yet on this brand new episode of Locked on ECC. We're certainly not done yet with Fanduel. Guys, I know that in summer the sports are not sporting like you want them to, but I'm over here.

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Starting point is 00:22:42 ECC, your first listen and your first watch today. For your second listen, check out the other shows that Kenton and I do. Kenton does an awesome job on Locked on Wolfpack. I host Locked on Cain, so he talks NC State Athletics. I talk Miami Hurricanes Athletics, check them out wherever you get your podcasts and free on YouTube as well. So, you know, Kenton, I do, I did see Commissioner Phillips try to channel his your mark a little bit in some of the things he was saying about the conference because one of the statements that came out of his mouth last week was there's not a more exciting collection of teams in the country than in the ACC. Now, for as much as I appreciate the collection of teams in the ACC, I don't know if you can come out and blurt that when, you know, you see what the Big Ten is doing and they just won a national championship with Michigan. Obviously, the SEC hype machine and, you know, what Georgia has done recently in Alabama has taken center stage.

Starting point is 00:23:41 It's like, okay, for as much as I think the ACC gets underrated and slept on a little bit and then, you know, people do other things when they talk about the ACC. You won't find a more exciting collection of teams. I don't know if I'm on board with that one. So here's what I will say. I think he was wrong. I think he used the wrong superlative when he used exciting. But I do think you will not see a more varied group of teams in terms of how they go about their business on the football field. You will not see a group of teams that's more different in anywhere in the power four.

Starting point is 00:24:15 You'd have to go down to maybe the American conference. I think they have a little bit more variance. they got a couple triple option teams in there. But when you look at the offensive schemes of the different teams in the ACC, you really do have drastically different things going on. I mean, you could, so for example, you look at Miami's offense, very power-based, very single-back, two-tight ends a lot, and you find yourself in a situation where you look at Mario Cristobal,

Starting point is 00:24:46 you know he wants to build that team to be physical, to be downhill, to be all those things. And then you just go, you know, a few miles down the road up to Tallahassee, and then you see a very different system where Norville likes to spread things out a little bit more. But even when he spreads the formation out, it's still to run the ball. So now you're like, oh, man, this is very different in the way that he's looking to run the ball. And then you go to SMU, they're spreading it off to fling that thing around the yard. Okay.

Starting point is 00:25:16 They want to throw, hey, balance to them is not 50%. run 50% pass. It's 50% outside receiver, 50% inside receiver. Okay. That's what balance looks like them, and they're damn fine with it. And then you've got other teams of the conference like Boston College for years, powerful, tackle oversets, all that type of stuff.

Starting point is 00:25:34 There is not a more varied conference in terms of, I don't think you're going to see as many different schemes as you will see in the ACC offensively. But in terms of exciting, eh, you know, that's a little tough. You know what I mean? It depends on what you consider exciting. Yeah, and Phillips went on to say some facts about the ACC.

Starting point is 00:25:57 And again, I don't know if this necessarily constitutes most exciting, but these are reasons why I think people downplay ACC football a little bit too much. He said, we have elite coaching leadership, six ACC head coaches named to the 2024 Dodd Trophy preseason watch list. No conference has more than that. two of the three active coaches in the country to win a national title reside here in the ACC, Mack Brown and Davosweeney. He said the combination of our proven veteran coaches combined with our dynamic young coaches is incredibly powerful.

Starting point is 00:26:31 He also added that the ACC is the only conference to have two teams finish in the top 25, two teams in the top 25 in each of the past seven years. So those are facts that outline, hey, people probably sleep on ACC football a little bit too much. In terms of what makes the conference exciting this year, Kenton, I think having, at least right now, having no clear favorite, I think is something that sets the ACC apart. You know, you add the coast to coast aspect of bringing in a Cal and Stanford. Obviously, I know the big.

Starting point is 00:27:03 ACC after dark, baby. ACCC after dark. Here we go. And there's some exciting players coming in. I mean, you look at even, and I know again, like I don't know how many people are all that excited to watch Cal and Stanford, but they bring in some good players, the guys I had a chance to talk to last week, like Jaden Ott, who was one of the best running backs in the country,

Starting point is 00:27:23 that you probably didn't watch much last year because he was playing games after, you know, 10 p.m. out there in Cal. Elic, I.O. Manor, the receiver from Stanford is a guy who could end up being a first team all-ACC player. You've got transfers coming in, like Cam Ward and Damien Martinez and DJ O'Iungalelay, Marvin Jones Jr. like Grayson McCall at NC State. Like you've got good players that are entering this conference. And listen, I hope the ACC can do what they did last year

Starting point is 00:27:52 where they had a winning record head to head against the SEC. Because if they can do that again, people should take notice that, hey, ACC football is not to be slept on. Absolutely. And also, let me say this. If you say, you know, I'm not mad at you if you say, hey, I'm not super excited to see Cal come into the conference. If you watch Jay not play and you say that he's not exciting, baby, that man is prime time.

Starting point is 00:28:19 I'm telling you that right now. I'm not going to lie to you and say I'm the Cow Bear's biggest fan and I watched every game that they played last year. However, and this is something that I stand by and I can 100% stand. That young man has what we like to call angle breaking speed. I know we've all heard of ankle breakers. He's an angle breaker. A DB can have a. the perfect angle to say, I'm going to track him down right here.

Starting point is 00:28:44 And he checks into another gear and it's like the roadrunner. When you hear that, me, me, it's out of the door. He's a different type of electric and he doesn't do it in a Barry Sanders type of way where he's super elusive and wiggling and all that. He makes one cut and boom, he's gone. He is shot out of a cannon. Absolutely exciting to watch. And again, Preston Stone and that wide receiving court, I don't disagree with him

Starting point is 00:29:09 that they have the best wide receiving, returning wide receiving court in the ACC. There's no doubt about that. There's not a doubt in my mind about that. There are some absolutely exciting playmakers joining this conference. And I would never say that there aren't. And so with that in mind, again, are we the most excited? Would I say that? I'm not sure.

Starting point is 00:29:29 But can I say for a fact that there are plenty of exciting players? Cam Ward, your boy. He's a lot like, I can't remember as I want to say it was like Drew, or something like that was a basketball player either from Michigan State or Syracuse. And he was exciting in that he would either shoot you in the game or shoot you either way, he's going to shoot and he's going to determine the outcome of this game.

Starting point is 00:29:52 Ken Ward is very similar. He is, when he's rolling at his highest clip, he is unstoppable. When he doesn't know the best thing to do is take a sack, go down sometime, that deadly fumble is going to come out, which is also what? Exciting. It's exciting football to watch. So all in all, again,

Starting point is 00:30:08 Commissioner Phillips may have been a little high, I can say we're the most exciting, but are we exciting? Absolutely. Well, I hope we've had a fun time and we've been exciting today on LockdowneACC. You want to smash that like button and subscribe if you're watching us on YouTube. If you listen to the audio version, make sure you subscribe on Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you get your pods. And we will talk to you again tomorrow on another episode of Lockdown ACC. We're part of the awesome Lockdown Podcast Network, your team, every day.

Locked On ACC - Daily College Football & Basketball Podcast - NCAA Is Going To Make NIL Into An Even Bigger Mess | Why Jim Phillips Has No Choice But To FIGHT

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