Locked On Bengals - Daily Podcast On The Cincinnati Bengals - BENGALS SQUAD SHOW: JOE BURROW and ZAC TAYLOR DESTINED for DISASTER TOGETHER?

Episode Date: January 21, 2026

With the Baltimore Ravens and Buffalo Bills both changing head coaches this offseason, and Patrick Mahomes already a three-time Super Bowl champion with Andy Reid in Kansas City, Joe Burrow and Zac Taylor, who went to the Super Bowl four seasons ago, will go into their seventh season together in 2026. Have they already peaked? Are they destined to decline this season? There's a five-year rule that states no quarterback/head coach tandem has won a Super Bowl past their fifth season together. How much does that apply to the Bengals with Joe Burrow with Zac Taylor as his head coach and offensive play-caller? Does it suggest that Joe Burrow's prime is being wasted? When the Bengals lost Super Bowl LVI to the Los Angeles Rams four years ago, many thought the Bengals were in a better position long-term than the Rams. Unfortunately, the opposite is now a reality. What lessons can the Bengals learn from the Rams, and how hard is that loss to stomach now knowing what the Rams have done since then? Support Us By Supporting Our Sponsors! TurboTax For a limited time, you can have your taxes done by a local TurboTax expert for just $150 — all in, if a TurboTax expert didn’t file for you last year. Just file by February 28. Visit http://TurboTax.com/local to book your appointment today. DripDrop Right now, DripDrop is offering podcast listeners 20% off your first order. Go to http://dripdrop.com and use promo code lockedonnfl. Ultimate QB Ultimate QB is totally free to play, has no ads, and works 100% offline — perfect for when you want to sneak in a quick game or two on the go. Just head over to http://ULTIMATE-QB.COM. FanDuel Today's episode is brought to you by FanDuel. FanDuel is officially in Playoff Mode. Every game day during the NFL playoffs, FanDuel is giving customers even more ways to get in on the action. Visit Fanduel.com to get started. PrizePicks Download the PrizePicks app today and use code LOCKEDONNFL to get $50 in lineups after you play your first $5 lineup. Click Here: https://prizepicks.onelink.me/LME0/LO...Gametime Download the Gametime app, create an account, and use code LOCKEDONNFL for $20 off your first purchase. Terms apply. Download Gametime today. What time is it? Gametime. Robinhood Trade Every Play with Robinhood. Now available across the U.S. Download the Robinhood app now to begin. Futures and cleared swaps trading involves significant risk and is not appropriate for everyone. Event contracts are offered by Robinhood Derivatives, LLC., a registered futures commission merchant and swap firm Indeed Listeners of this show get a $75 Sponsored Job Credit to help give your job the premium placement it deserves at http://Indeed.com/lockedonnfl. FANDUEL DISCLAIMER: 21+ in select states. First online real money wager only. Bonus issued as nonwithdrawable free bets that expires in 14 days. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Gambling Problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit FanDuel.com/RG (CO, IA, MD, MI, NJ, PA, IL, VA, WV), 1-800-NEXT-STEP or text NEXTSTEP to 53342 (AZ), 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat (CT), 1-800-9-WITH-IT (IN), 1-800-522-4700 (WY, KS) or visit ksgamblinghelp.com (KS), 1-877-770-STOP (LA), 1-877-8-HOPENY or text HOPENY (467369) (NY), TN REDLINE 1-800-889-9789 (TN) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

I'm Alex Frank and yeah, Joe Burrow and Zach Taylor have done some great things together, but unfortunately they could be destined to decline in 26. Jake Lusco is Joe Burroughs prime being wasted with Zach Taylor as the Bengals head coach? Well, they've certainly wasted a few years, but luckily Joe Burroughs good enough that there's still plenty of time left. Still plenty of time left, but coach that five-year rule, no coach or quarterback has won a Super Bowl past their fifth season together. I'm fearing the Bengals may be the latest. example of that. Well, you know what? It's there. It's happened before and it's probably going to repeat itself. Better late than never. All that and much more coming up on the Bengals Squad show.

Today, it's the Bengals squad. Everything Cincinnati Bengals every week. Breaking down all the big hits and game-changing plays from the Queen City the way only the locked on podcast network can. From the jungle to the playoffs, the Bengals Squad show starts now. It's week three of the off season. It's off season show number five. Welcome to the Vangel Squad show on the lockdown Bengals YouTube channel. Bengals Squad is the twice a week's supplement to the daily lockdown Bengals podcast hosted by Jake Liscoe and James Rapine.

I'm Alex Frank, joined by Jake and coach Art Valero for Bengals Squad. Part of the Lockdown Podcast Network, your team every day. Lockdown Podcast Network is the number one sports podcast network in America and the world for more on how to become a member of the Everydayer Club, visit Lockdownpodcast.com slash everydayer. Gentlemen, we got a great show today. A lot of great stuff to get to today. Joe Burrow and Zach Taylor are going into season seven together, and that's great for continuity.

But when you think about what these two have been through together, the last three seasons, all that went down this year, 2024, the slow start, eventually culminating in four and eight going into December. and then 2023, even, they were one and three. I just get a sense that after the Super Bowl and 21, the AFC championship game the following season, did these two maybe peek together early? And I just wonder if they're ever going to be able to get back to the magic they created in those two seasons.

What do you guys think as we sit on the early stages of the offseason that, as Joe Burrell says, as big as it gets for the 2026 edition of the Cincinnati Bengals? Yeah, I mean, it's difficult in the NFL. I think you see that, for example, with Josh Allen and the Buffalo Bills. It's really hard. Everyone has the same goal. Everyone's trying to win a Super Bowl, and it's really hard to get back there. We'll see that with the Chicago Bears and Ben Johnson.

Can they get back there the way that the Bengals were able to get back there in 22 after 21 and haven't been able to do it since for different reasons between Joe Burroughs health and the sudden collapse and continued downward trajectory of the defense, it's just really hard to get back. That doesn't mean it's impossible just because things have never happened in the NFL, doesn't mean that they never well happen. It might mean that it's rare. It might mean that you're looking for an outlier, and that's probably the case.

The Bengals have never won a Super Bowl. Does that mean they never well? Maybe you're probably looking for an outlier year for the Bengals to get there or something to change. But that idea that just because something hasn't happened before means it will never happen again, obviously there are new things happening in the NFL every year, every year we get. This is the first time X, Y, Z thing has happened. So it doesn't mean it's impossible, but there's obviously a lot of work to do.

And that is what's ahead of this team more than, you know, what the history and the trends say about these sorts of things. Yeah, there is a lot of work to do. And coach, for as much as continuity is great, at the same time, when you see, all these great quarterbacks like Patrick Mahomes, who's won three Super Bowls. He's evolved his game. Andy Reed has evolved as his head coach and offensive play caller. You look at what Josh Allen did, our has done over the last few seasons and the way he can run the football. You look at all these great quarterbacks.

They're evolving. Joe Burrow is too, but I just wonder if Zach Taylor is the right head coach for him in that continuation of his involvement. What say you? Well, I think that at this point, you know, after seven years, Zach is kind of Joe's safety net. You know, he knows it's the same system. It's the same system of football from the team's approach to offensively the approach.

And so if you aren't pushing the envelope every year trying to get better, bringing in new people that have different ideas, it's hard because you stay, status quo. And that's where a lot of coaches, I mean, you look at it and it's to me, as a former coach, it's really hard to bring in and change quarterback systems over and over again because they never really get comfortable. Quarterbacks are system players. And when they're in a system, they become very comfortable.

They become very relaxed. They've run the plays over and over against the variety of looks so the reaction times can get better. Now, you bring in a new coach, he calls what you call an apple, he calls it an orange. There's something in there in the translation that he has to evolve to, and then it gets stale. But you know what, unless the, now I'm not in the room, but unless the Bengals are constantly getting stimulation on the offense. It's a good offense, but it's almost too good right now.

They need to evolve and evolve Joe Burrell. And you know what? His injuries, where the other quarterbacks haven't had him, his injuries have slowed his progression down. I'll say this for the Bengals coaching staff and the development on the offensive side of the ball. I recently had a conversation with someone who would know about the division of labor in the Bengals' offensive coaching staff in particular.

And the addition of past game coordinator, ironically, Justin Ruscati has gone a long way in terms of developing the running game, which is why it's ironic. He has an offensive line background. He has that kind of like hybrid background where the Bengals hired him as a past game coordinator, but he was an offensive line guy when he was coming up. And he's really contributed in the running game in the year after Frank Pollock, where Frank Pollock had that run game coordinator title and there wasn't a lot of room for new ideas outside of what Frank Pollack brought to the table.

It was much more collaborative in 2025. And we started to see the run game really coming along, especially in the second half of the season, as Scott Peters' development and teaching started to take hold with the offensive line. He started to see him teaching wide zone a little bit differently, and the Bengals finding some success with different run game concepts. And so I will say that, based on my understanding of the post-Frank Pollock era in

Cincinnati, especially in the run game. You saw a lot more collaboration from guys like for scatty, the running backs coast, Justin Hill had a lot more say. Casey, the tight ends coach, had a lot more say in things. Dan pitcher and his ideas in the run game led to the Bengals evolving the run game in 2025 in a way that I just wanted, as you're talking about it, coach and the need for that constant stimulus and the constant evolution, they did get some of those things in at least some areas because of the change in the way that the Bengals attacked the run game this year in

particular. It's just interesting that you bring it up because I had this conversation literally yesterday and learned a lot about some of the differences in the way that the Bengals put the run game together in 2025. I love hearing that. And I think it's interesting because when you think about a coach like Justin Ruscati and the way the Bengals ran the football last year, which was really great to see Chase Brown from week seven on, you could argue, was one at or not argue, you could say was one of the five best running backs in the NFL. So sometimes I think when there's a lot of losing, unfortunately, going on within an organization, the wheel of blame gets, I mean, it spins faster.

And you forget that there are some really smart coaches within this organization, in the room on the coaching staff, guys like Justin Ruscati. And then you think about Zach Taylor and Dan Pitcher and how instrumental they have been in Joe Burroughs career. For as great as Joe Burrow was when he came out of LSU, there was no definitive guarantee he was going to be this really great quarterback. Now, Joe Borough is that, but at the same time, Zach Taylor was instrumental early on in his career. I mean, in year two together, they went to the Super Bowl. In year three, they were like one play away from going back there in the following season. So he has been really good for Joe Borough. So has Dan pitcher, quarterback's coach,

his first four seasons, offensive coordinator last two. But I just wonder when it comes to Dan Pitcher specifically, and Jake, you and James talked about this earlier this week on lockdown Bengals, Dan Pitcher potentially not returning to the Bengals, maybe leaving now for another offensive coordinator role. And I just wonder, James wrote about this on all Bengals in Sports Illustrated, is the fact that Dan Pitcher wants to be in a position where he can call plays offensively. That's fine. But it goes back to, I just wonder if Zach Taylor maybe weren't so set on being the offensive play caller, he's been that for seven years.

And I understand it may be a low priority for some. You've mentioned that yourself this offseason. But I just wonder if where there needs to be changed so you can keep continuity, maybe that's where Zach Taylor needs to realize, if I don't give up calling plays, I could lose Dan Pitcher. And then who knows who's going to walk in at opposite coordinator? Could it be Brian Callahan, sure? Could it be Joe Brady sure? I mean, you don't know who it's going to be.

I just wonder if that has something to do with Joe Burrow and Zach Taylor being together. And maybe them, unfortunately, and I'm not going to say it's Joe Burrough. Oaksboro, I think, is going to have a great season next year as long as he stays healthy. I just wonder if those two together are going to start to decline even more in 26 because of some of the changes that aren't being made. What do you guys think? I think it's hard to make a... You know what?

I think that, I'm sorry if I could. That's all right. Go ahead, coach. I'm having a tough time hearing Jake, by the way. I think that probably as instrumental in Joe's progress is Dan. You know, he's been with him for seven years. He was his position coach. He's the earpiece going between player and head coach and play caller is the quarterback coach.

And I know that as valuable as he is, you certainly don't want to let somebody like that get out of the building. And what do you have to lose at this point? You can always take it over after eight games. You can always take it over after four games if you don't like what you're seeing. As long as Joe Burrell feels comfortable with how Dan pitcher would call the game, let it eat. I'll just say this from, I mean, we have this conversation about two weeks ago, right, Alex, we had a long topic on that show. We had a full segment on Zach giving up play calling and all these things. There's a few possibilities here.

One, I think it's possible. I'm not saying this is a case. I'm speculating that ownership wants Zach Taylor to call the place. That ownership sees 16 open offensive coordinator jobs around the NFL. this year and the turnover that happens around the NFL and thinks, why will we change the voice in Joe Burroughs ear? When Joe Burrow has been out there at quarterback, this offense performs at a high level. And people don't like to credit Zach Taylor for that because Joe Burrow and Jamar Chase and T. Higgins

exists. But those things do go hand in hand. They have built this offense around Joe Burrow and Joe's preferences. This is very much a Joe Burrow offense. You see how it changes when Joe Burrow isn't in there at quarterback. When it's Joe Flacco at quarterback or Jake Browning at quarterback instead of Joe Burrow, the offense does look a little bit different for better and for worse. So I do think that losing Dan Pitcher would be a bad thing for the Bengals.

There's no doubt about that. I think Dan Pitcher is a good coach. I also don't know that changing the play caller makes a huge difference. And this is going to be an unpopular take perhaps. But I still think Zach Taylor is actually a good play caller. I think going back to our conversation, a couple of times. weeks ago, if it gets you an advantage and other aspects of managing your team on game day and you don't have a falloff in play calling by changing the play caller, then it's something that

you could consider. But again, I'm not sure that it isn't ownership's preference to have the continuity and say, you know what, the reason we hired Zach Taylor to be the offensive-minded head coach is so that we could sustain what we have on offense that has been working. The offense is not the problem. And yeah, they could finish games better. Don't get me wrong. They're not perfect. But the bigger problem facing this team right now has been on the defensive side of the ball for the last two years. You're absolutely right. And again, I just wonder if Zach Taylor giving up play calling would allow him to see the issues that are really on the defensive side of the fall. Damika Ryan's, and I talked about this on a previous show,

he called the defense in Houston when he first got out there. But when he felt like he was in a sufficient enough position, he gave up defensive play call. And now it's Matt. at Burke, defense coordinator, at least this past season. And Domeika Ryan's is now, you know, like the general, the field general, focusing on all aspects of the game. So I- When we talked about that last week, we can also look at all the coaches that are still in the playoffs. Sean McVeigh calling plays for the Rams. Mike McDonough calling plays for the Seahawks defense.

Sean Payton calling plays for the Broncos offense. And if we go back to last week, Mike, or sorry, Kyle Shanahan calling plays for the 49ers, Ben Johnson calling plays for the Rams. and so there is a large representation of play caller head coaches that have gone deep. You have to be good at it, but if you're good at it, that seems to be a pretty good answer, just looking at the teams that are currently succeeding in the NFL. Coach, what do you think? I'm sorry, I didn't hear, I'm having a hard time here at Jake.

So Jake is saying that Zach Taylor, the fact that he has been able to call plays and do it enough and do it at a good enough level where there are head coaches in the playoffs still that are calling play. So we have seen that it can work. And so maybe Zach Taylor can remain the offensive play caller, but there still needs to be some involvement in all facets of the game. Well, you know, it's funny you say that because they're all from the same tree. They're all a part of the same tribe. the Kyle Shanahan, the Sean McVeigh tree that they trickle down, you know, and all of a sudden then you throw Ben Johnson in there after only being his first year, there's going to come a point in time.

Those guys, they don't want to leave what they know. But the one thing that they have that I don't believe Zach has is he does not have a team, a team around him in terms of players on both sides of the ball, nor does he have a staff that he feels very, very comfortable with, that he can just say, okay, that side of the ball, you go do you, we'll do us, and in the middle we're going to win games, and I'll coach the team. And I don't think he feels totally comfortable with that, and he's not going to let something get away from him that he's got control of.

Yeah, and that's where the continuity aspect comes in, but it also comes with, yes, what works is good, but at the same time, evolvement matters in the NFL. The great organizations are the ones that do it the best, the chiefs, the Bills, the Ravens, the Patriots. I mean, you can even say the Niners and Kyle Shanahan, the Houston Texans, even to a degree have evolved. That's where it gets tricky.

And I just wonder if there's too much of continuity. They have to change in some aspects. And it's going to be very interesting if Dan Pitcher does leave for an offensive coordinator role somewhere else. I don't think he's going to leave for a head coach and role. Now, as James wrote, the idea of him going to the Browns, be their head coach, I feel like has come and gone. So now it's if he's going to leave to be an offensive coordinator.

And if he does, do the Bengals go back to Brian Callahan? Do they bring in Joe Brady, which I think a lot of Bengals fans would like the idea of that? At the same time, is that what's best. I'm not sure. But that's a conversation for a future show. Coming up, Joe Burroughs Prime, obviously the last three years of it have not been what Bengals fans were hoping for. We'll talk about how it relates to a move that was made yesterday by a rival quarterback and his organization. We'll talk about that coming up next right here on the Bangles

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Tuesday, January 20th, the day after the Indiana Hoosiers, congratulations to them. winning the college football playoff national championship coach. Just how impressive is this turnaround by head coach Kurt Signetti at Indiana? Huge. It is, I mean, to see that what happened yesterday, and actually all 16 games they played this year is phenomenal. You know, it's going to be tough to defend, but at least for a year, you don't have to.

You are the national champs and you keep moving forward. Jake, when you watch, when you see Indiana and Kurt Signetti in the way he leads, does it make you, as it relates to the Bengals, does it make you think about if the right people are in this room and what is supposed to be the prime of Joe Burroughs career? I don't often draw those parallels between college coaching staff changes like that in the NFL, but I certainly acknowledge that what Kurt Signetti did at Indiana is one of the most impressive coaching jobs we've seen in any level of football, probably in my lifetime. I mean, really, really impressive job by Signetti.

As far as what's going on with the Bengals, I guess I've just kind of moved on, to be honest, Alex. Like, the coaching staff is going to be in place. And we talked about the opportunity the Bengals had to make those changes. They didn't take the opportunity. We talked about why we think the Bengals did it. And at this point, with Zach Taylor returning, my focus personally has shifted toward what can they do?

How can they attack this offseason? How can they figure this thing out? Because at this point, you know, we've talked to Zach Taylor thing so much, and he's not going anywhere in reality. And so at some point, you have to look forward. Yeah, and that brings, you bring up a lot of points there that I want to touch on in this segment because at the end of the day, as fans, we root for the players to win games. Players are ultimately the ones that are going to decide whether or not a team wins games.

And so for me, I go back to 2002. When the Bengals lost the IFC championship to Kansas City, and Joe Borough was talking to, I forget if it was Tracy Wolfson or Evan Washburn after the game. And he said, and I believed him, and I think a lot of us did. He said that he felt like the organization was headed in a positive direction, a good direction. You like where the organization was headed. Unfortunately, the last three, years when again, the 2023 season was D. Rayle and Burrow got injured in week 11 and was out for

the season after that. But at the same time, the last three seasons, what they have become are seasons that were filled with high expectations. And then by the time we get to Thanksgiving, the wheel of blame is spinning so fast. And I always say this, the wheel of blame has no landing spot. So for once, I just ask, and again, Jake, you're right, the coaching staff is in place. We can kind of move on from that, even though we will still talk about it, because that's what fans want us to discuss and we do these shows for the fans. I just think that for once, I want there to be complete alignment in the organization, ownership, coaching staff, and players. And I do think there is alignment between the coaching staff and players. I do think there is that because there was

improvement in key areas this season. Maybe not a lot or as fans would have liked, but there was improvement on the offensive line. There was improvement on defense in the second half of the season. But coach, as you know, there has to be alignment at all three levels of the organization. Can the ownership, which has done a lot of things better in recent years, fine, but there still is to be improvement, can they for once with a quarterback that is absolutely capable of winning a Super Bowl? And the Bengals have not had that quarterback since at least Ken Anderson, if not boom or a size. Carson Palmer may be that. But this is different, it feels like. Joe Burrow is different. He's built different. Jake mentioned it earlier on the show. He's an outlier because he's come back

with so many injuries. But coach, that's where organizational alignment has to for once be there and not be a distraction and talking point during training camp where it should be the ramp up to what should be a very good season. Is that accurate? I would say true. That's absolutely true. You know what I think that at this point in time, you know, everybody knows, you know, what kind of player Joe Burrow is. And they talked about, hey, okay, we're going to build this thing. We're going to build it around him. don't women there's more around him than just two wide receivers you know what you have to spread your wealth and your love on both sides of the ball to create a team and they always seem to be a day late in terms of they're addressing the situation especially the last three years now granted

he's got to stay healthy but you know you look at it he's seven years in the league he's been hurt a couple I mean, a numerous amount of times. You have to, and it's taking you this long to protect him so he's not getting a hit because the pressures are as good as a sack. Those unnecessary hits take their toll. And I think that right now they're not in line. I think the players are with the coaching staff

and you can see it because no one has quit. All right. But you don't hear from the other side. you don't know. You don't know who to put your questions towards. Let's relate this with the Bengals, the state of the Bengals, to the Buffalo Bills. So Sean McDermott is fired yesterday, Monday, which I will admit I was surprised. I thought it could happen because the bills have come up short in the playoffs so many times, straight. But think about this. The Buffalo Bills have a quarterback who, like Joe Burrow,

is all world, all world talent. Josh Allen is that. He's arguably the best player in the NFL right now, and I would argue that myself. But the bills have decided to move on from a guy Alan was very familiar with. Coach, he's won 98 games in nine seasons with the bills. You can't do a lot better than 98 wins in nine years. I mean, but again, the bills, this goes back to a point Jake you mentioned last week, different organizations in the NFL will move at different speeds for better or worse than the Bengals.

And the bills in the middle of Allen's prime, they are making a change because they believe they need to get another head coach in the room to get them over the hum. So I ask you, Jake, how does this relate to the Bengals deciding to keep Zach Taylor after three straight non-playoff seasons, whereas the bills who have won a playoff game in six straight seasons are making a change at head coach. Yeah, I mean, the six seasons of the bills falling short in different ways and the Bengals have fallen short. Look, I think we've talked about this enough that people know.

I would have moved on from Zach Taylor this year. If it were me making the decisions, I would be doing a lot of things different than the Bengals front office does things. But as you compare it to the bills and you can go to the Ravens or the Pittsburgh examples as well, these are a bunch of organizations that have moved on from very entrenched and successful head coaches, but have kept their front offices intact. In fact, Brandon Bean gets a promotion. And one thing that we've talked about with Zach Taylor and the Bengals and Duke Tobin is I would like to see these guys coupled at this point. Duke Tobin got to hire his head coach and Zach Taylor.

Those guys have been linked from the moment Zach was brought into the building in Cincinnati. and the discussion has long been about the alignment between GM and head coach. And Duke Tobin, I know not an official GM in Cincinnati, but I would like to have, well, I think we would have all liked to have seen that be done. But I think linking those guys together at some point makes sense too. And it's interesting that you're seeing teams move on from head coaches and not their front office staff. Because for the bills especially, there is such a failure by Brandon Bean to put together an adequate team around Josh Allen, much like you would argue about, you know, even the Chiefs.

I know that they've been in the Super Bowl, but as recently as last year, but the decline of the Chief's roster texture in general exists as well. And it's something that they're now contending with to try to keep things going with Patrick Mahomes. The bills need to do better around Josh Allen. And I think that you would make those arguments for a number of front offices that have remained intact. So I was surprised to see how little front office turnover there was.

this year. There's a really interesting point that I saw from Jake Rosenberg, who used to work in the Philadelphia Eagles front office that would have been on Monday where he said, it might be hard to believe, but ownership often lacks a great feel for what people actually do in their roles, what drives success and what distinguishes the best teams. The people they often lead on often have agendas or lack true insights. So I think that this is a problem that we've talked about in Cincinnati for decades too. A lot of this goes back to ownership, figuring out the right buttons to press at the right times too,

and figuring out what those solutions should be and having a clear mind in doing so, especially because so many of these owners, I would say probably all of them, they're mostly not football people. They're people that are coming from other professions where they've become billionaires in order to afford a football team, and these are the people pulling the strings. And so it's complicated for,

top to bottom is, I guess, the bottom line here. Look, and we're getting into that right now, because when you're an organization that unfortunately the Bengals are historically a losing organization, they went 31 years without winning a playoff game. So unfortunately, because of that, when the Bengals aren't very good, that's where fans are going to go and they're going to start talking about. And then we start talking about it to give them our perspectives. And it's maddened.

Like, it should not be this way. And you bring up a great point, Jake, about coupling head coach general manager or whoever is pulling the strains when it comes to roster construction. Coach, I'm going to give you an example. Your old rival, the Atlanta Falcons, this offseason, what did they do? Fire their head coach Rahim Morris. Rahim Morris is widely respected around the NFL. They fired their general manager, Terry Fontenow, who had been there for years.

What did the Falcons do this month so far? Well, they hired Matt Ryan as their president of football operations, and that move has been met with extreme positivity. And what does he do his first big decision, hiring a head coach? goes out and gets a two-time coach of the year and Kevin Stefansky. So the Falcons now, they have completely turned the page. Now, they are good. Now, they don't necessarily have a quarterback set in place.

Michael FedEx Jr. has talent. I'll give him that. But at least you look at an organization like the Falcons that are going to a, that are pivoting to a new direction to win championships. That stuff matters. Coach, I'm going to ask you this because you came to Tampa Bay, and O2 with John Gruden, the year after Tony Dungey left, and it's because the buccaneers needed to get over the hump. Were there any conversations about that going into the O2 season where you

guys did ultimately win the Super Bowl? You know what? That was never mentioned, although everybody in the building knew the reason why. And John did bring, he brought fire, he brought a new fuse that was lit from day one. And, you know, we started out, our first OTAs was our, and our first opponent was our defense. And we're in an all-run period, all-run. And what does John do the first play of the game? He runs naked bootleg.

And so we got the defense upset, offense was fired up, and the war was on. And we started to compete. until we were able to bring it all together in training camp. And so I've been on both sides of those sides, where all of a sudden they brought in John to get the Buccaneers over the hump. Because the defense was built. The defense was already built.

It was offensively, excuse me, where they had a tough time. Now you look at the other coaches. There are three coaches out of the lead that were either stepped down and or fired. and they have over a 62% winning percentage. That's a lot of games that you're willing to send down the road where they have won. And I don't know, and the people that were hired since, with the exception to John Harbaugh, the other two,

they have below 50% wins. So you're exchanging the known for the unknown. And if you feel it's your football team. So you can do whatever with whatever you want. Just be careful what you wish for. You and I had this conversation yesterday when we were talking about Sean McDermott being fired. And I know you've talked about this when it came to John Harbaugh and Mike Tomlin.

Maybe it was time to move on. And a lot of Bill's fans that comments that I've been reading on social media have felt the same way. But when most, when a lot of them are all, also saying, why didn't Brandon Bean get canned or whatever? That tells you that there's something else wrong, deeper within the organization. Now, personally, if Brandon Bean were the Bengals general manager, I'd love it. Because I think, while yes, Jake, his rosters have not been adequate enough. They've been good.

I mean, there's a reason that Bill's fans, when it comes to Thanksgiving early December, the last two seasons are talking about division titles and who they want to play or don't want to play in the playoffs and the Bengals are, well, we're talking about, well, they need to do this, this and this, and it's mostly win out. Like, it, it does make me think about that. Now, I will say this, when it comes to the AFC, the fact that the Bills and the Ravens with MVP quarterbacks, MVP quarterbacks have made changes at the head coach. And now the two longest tenure head coaches in the NFL, or the AFC, excuse,

excuse me, are Andy Reed with the Chiefs, who will be in year 14, assuming he's back next season, which I haven't heard anything to suggest he won't be, and Zach Taylor, who's going into year eight. Now, it goes back to Duke Tobin when he said that we've done it before. Yes, you have done it before. You have beaten the Chiefs in the AFC Championship. You've gone toe to toe with him twice. You can keep saying that all you want, but when other teams are trying something different, and yeah, because they are testing the unknown, and that's, I mean, that's what they're getting into. But at least teams are trying other ways to win, and the Bengals may win next year. They may win next year.

But they're not trying anything different, and that Jake is something that personally I have an issue with when the last three years in Burroughs Prime, when Josh Allen's prime has been successful. He hasn't won a Super Bowl hasn't been to one, but at least the bills are trying to give him chances to get there. I just wonder if Bengals's ownership is once again not hitting the right buttons, as you say, when they need to and are going to be too late to the party once again. Yeah, there's a real chance that they are. We've seen them do it before. I'm sure as long as this ownership group is around, we'll see them do it again. We'll see what the offseason brings. The only other thing in my mind about this is from percolating a little bit lately is the last time,

there are two times that I felt like there was an offseason like this, maybe three, where Bengals fans were just so upset that, you know, everything was kind of kept in place and retained and everything. One of those was before 21, the Bengals go to the Super Bowl. Yeah. One of those was when the Bengals kept Marvin Lewis after the Carson Palmer thing. And I, because this was before when I was in this industry, I checked out.

It was 2010 or whatever it was, right? And then the Bengals draft Andy Dalton in the second round. I'm like, all right, cool. They drafted a second round quarterback. Who cares? It's not going to do anything. And then they made the playoffs five straight years. They didn't win in the playoffs.

They had their issues there. They had a really good team in 2015 that they obviously were set back by Andy Dalton's injury that year. But there are a couple of times in recent Bengals history that I've been thinking about where it's like, man, there is a really good argument that the Bengals need to move on from their coach. And then they go out there and win the next year. and exceed expectations. They also kept Marvin too long after 2015, obviously, and maybe they would have won with AJ Green and Andy Dalton in those cores,

with or without Marvin Lewis, we'll never know. But it's just a thought that has occurred to me lately that every now and then, in recent Bengals history, there's been all this outrage about keeping a coach in place. And then they've gone to exceed expectations the following year. So anything can happen in the NFL very much, year to year, week to week league, a lot of parity in place. And I think there's a long way to go this off season before we have fully shaped opinions

about our expectations for this team in 2026. One key theme about that. And as we saw in the playoffs this week, those teams that don't learn from history are destined to repeat it. And that will lead into our next conversation about the five-year rule as it relates to Joe Burrow and Zach Taylor and why winning a Super Bowl together may have sailed past and we'll talk about that next right here on the Bengals Squad Show. Today's edition of the Bengals Squad Show is brought to you by a drip drop.

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slash every day or to learn more where among other things you can get access to the members only discord back on bengal squad the twice a week supplement to the daily lockdown bengos podcast hosted by jake liscoe and james rippeen coach ral philera with us on bangle squad i'm alex frank so i'm not sure how much you guys buy into the five year rule that there was i remember exactly where i was jake i think you may have actually uh... hosted something about this. I was in a hotel in St. Petersburg, Florida, visiting my sister that weekend. She just moved down there. So I was there. The Bengals were playing the Chargers that weekend. I don't like remembering that game was a Sunday night game. They should have won.

This was 2024, November. And I remember being in the hotel lobby, and I saw this thing called the five-year rule. And the stat is no head coach and starting quarterback have won a Super Bowl past their fifth season together. Some want it in their fifth seasons. Flack Owen Harbaugh, Peyton Manning and Tony Dungey, they all won it in their fifth season. So they got theirs,

but no other head coach quarterback tandem has won a Super Bowl past their fifth season. When you guys hear that, and as it relates to Joe Barrow and Zach Taylor, you start thinking what? Yeah, I mean, this is something that has been around for a while. I think it could end up being true for the Bengals. That could end up being how it plays out.

I think that it is a pretty significant year for Zach Taylor, now knowing that in fact, 2026 will be the year in which he has one year left on his deal, 2027 and not two years left. You see around the NFL in Green Bay is the latest example of this. Coaches don't like going into that lame duck year. I don't think ownership likes coaches going into a lame duck year, meaning the final year of a contract and just playing it

out and seeing what happens. Typically, very cute as your dog makes a guest appearance. My dog is one to join the conversation. Go ahead. The, the typical history is what it is here. I would throw this one caveat out there. And I'm sure this has happened for other head coach quarterback combos too, but how do you count it when the quarterback has missed a bunch of time? How do you, how do you count the five years? Exactly. When the quarterback hasn't played five full years. Is that something that we should consider as a mitigating factor here or not? I don't know. I don't know how much predictive determinism this particular statistic has, because like I said, early in the show, new things happen in the NFL every year. But again, you're talking about an outlier,

and you can certainly see that being the case for the Bengals that they just held on to Zach Taylor too long. Maybe we end up looking back on this period in five, ten years and really regret it. But I don't know the future that well. I can't predict it that well. But yet, only we could. I just, you know, could probably say what I've said before today is that, you know, I would have moved on from Zach. But now that he's still around, I'm just looking for ways to make it work and

waiting to see what's going to happen before I set my expectations for 2026. And it puts the honest on the front office. Coach, when you got to Tampa Bay, no, too, could you sense that there was like something like an elephant in the room of, hey, we need to like get over this hump. We need to win a Super Bowl because you don't know when you're going to get another really good chance. You know what? We didn't. We were challenged coming in, challenged by the defensive players.

They, about how, I mean, they knew they were good. And they knew they had to get over the home. And that the only way, deep down inside, they understood that it was going to take an offense to help to help them get over. over the home. And John kind of reversed it. He said, don't worry about the offense. And we weren't good for a while. We weren't good for probably five games. And we finally came into our own and started winning some, or helped winning some games. But he challenged the defense right away. He brought the big three in and said, hey, get me nine turnovers for touchdowns. Something was unheard of. The defense took that. That was a challenge for them against who's this guy?

And they ultimately went out and got it and we won it as a team. So, yeah, there wasn't that necessarily that drive. It was like now or never, but we just took one game at a time and just went out and play. This next point I'm going to make is going to really pull on the heartstrings here when it comes to being a Bengals fan. but the night of Super Bowl 56 after the game ended and as crushing as it was, it was so easy for me, Jake, maybe you, James, any Bengals fan to think, okay, we waited so long to win a playoff game. We weren't supposed to go to the Super Bowl this year. We were this close three points against a really great defense in the Rams.

And Sean McVeigh, their head coach, who's going to be in the Hall of Fame one day. I'm convinced of that. If you would have told me that night that the Rams would be in the position they're in right now, and the Bengals would be in the position they're in right now, I'd be like, dude, the Rams just wasted their entire salary cap, basically, to win the Super Bowl. I shouldn't say wasted their salary cap. They used it all to win the Super Bowl. Somehow they've recovered from that.

They're playing to go to the Super Bowl again on Sunday, which we'll talk about in our final segment today. And then the Bengals have made the playoffs in three straight years. It makes what happened that night hurt even more. It's harder to stomach, knowing that you're right there. And it's so easy to say, well, Joe Burroughs great. He'll be back there. Dan Marino was great.

He never got back. Red Far have only went back one time after he won the Super Bowl in 1996. So it just, you really start to. to think more and more of the missed opportunity that was there that night in L.A. And understand that with the way the Bengals are run and the changes that they haven't made and the things they do and don't do, it just makes you really wonder about, man, did they miss out on it? And seeing what the Rams are doing and how they navigated through their, you know,

organizational adversity, it just, it hurts. And look, Stafforda McVeigh got theirs in year one. They may get another one this year. There are other head coaches and quarterbacks who have gotten theirs. Mahomes and Reeve got theirs. Hertz and Siriani got theirs in year four. So it really, really puts into perspective this five-year rule. And it puts into perspective, I think Jake, I'll turn to you here because, you know,

salary gap better than I certainly do. It's the fact that when Joe Burrow was on a rookie contract and they had all this talent, and they could accumulate it all. Yeah, it was all fun in games. But ever since Burroughs signed his extension, the front office has not done an adequate, what enough job of putting a team around him. And now that five-year rule really, really comes into play.

And when you think about Joe Burroughs Prime, it all goes back to are the right people here to ensure that that trend can be bucked and the Bengals win the Super Bowl this year or next year or at some time if Zach Taylor still here past his contract. It could happen. I think the front office certainly needs.

to do business differently. I'm not going to sit here and say, I think the Bengals are going to win the Super Bowl in 2026. Like I said, I don't have any takes yet about what I think this team is going to do next year. The offseason is going to play a big part in that. One thing we talked about in Lockdown Bengals this week, I think on our first show of the week,

was the desire to see this front office be a little bit more aggressive with their salary cap and maximize their resources a little bit because there are a bunch of salary cap-based listings out there right now that put the Bengals in the top 10. By the time all these other teams do all their restructures and extensions and cap cuts and everything. The Bengals are probably going to be in the top half of the NFL in cap space, but their number isn't going to change the way a lot of these other teams are going to create space

and push the envelope a little bit for their roster. But ultimately for the Bengals, this is now three straight quarterbacks where they haven't been able to put it together around those quarterbacks on their second contract, which I think is more than enough to call it a trend. And Duke Tobin is overseen all of those quarterback ten years. in Cincinnati from Carson Palmer to Andy Dalton to now Joe Burrow. And there's just a need for it to be better. A lot of that is maintaining your aggression in free agency,

finding the fits in free agency year to year. And a lot of it is a draft, man. You talk about the Rams and what the Rams have done since their F that Picks moment in the draft since then. They got Kyron Williams in the fifth round, Clinton Lake in the sixth round, Kobe Durant, who was starting for them on Sunday in the fourth round in 2022. In 2023, they have 14.

draft picks. They got Steve Avila, Kobe Turner, Warren McClendon, Pooka, all guys that are starting for them and are huge players that are part of their success. Braden Fiske, Jared Verse, in in 2024, Cam Kinchins, I think he might be hurt right now, but the success that the Rams have had in drafting and developing throughout the draft, not just in the first round, not picking in the top 10, despite having limited resources in some of these years. A lot of credit to that. front office for finding ways to find players and that coaching staff. And the coaching staff that just had a lot of turnover and continuing to develop guys. And for the Bengals, it will take both.

They need to be better in the draft at finding players. They need to be better development. Hopefully we're seeing some signs of that with some of these coaches, certainly on the offensive side of the ball. And they need to get back to what got them there the last time, which is being a little bit more active in free agency to find ways to create some strengths on your team where you don't have them on the defensive side of the ball. And coach again, it all goes back to, that's great point, Jake.

It all goes back to this organization. When they do things one way and it works great, but when it doesn't, you have to pivot. And this organization still has not done that. And that's where Bengals fans are frustrated with a quarterback who's in his prime. But maybe the window, while it could open again this year, it doesn't necessarily feel like it's wide open like it was a few years ago. No, you know what? And when less needs. They won it.

They had their downtime. You got to remember, Sean McVeigh was ready to retire. You know, he'd been burned out with a team with a team two years later or one year later. They just kind of. One year later. Because they ended up spending the bank on winning a Super Bowl,

which they did. Great for them. They've done it before. In the history, the Bengals haven't done it before because they did it. once why haven't you done it the last three years it didn't take that long for for the rams to do it it shouldn't have taken you that long and your salary cap wasn't what the rams was at that time so you know what it's you know you can use all the rhetoric you want the great thing about this

game is it's a show me game and the fans don't want to hear all the excuses and everything else just go give me a product. Let me cheer for you. Let me root you on. Show me what you've got. Show me who we are. And I will be more proud of you by showing me that and give me something in January that I can be excited about. It's a show me league.

And it's a what have you done for me lately league? That is so true. Speaking of Sean McVeigh and the Rams, what a win for them at the divisional round weekend. Plus, I'm going to hold Coach Valero accountant. for a prediction he made that sounded great at the time, but early on Saturday night, it didn't look that great. We'll get into that conversation next right here on the Bengal squad show. I think coach knows what I'm talking about. Today's edition of the Bengals squad show is brought to you by Home Chef. As the new year gets going, a lot of people are trying to simplify their

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free shipping and free dessert for life. Just go to homechef.com slash locked on. That's homechef.com slash locked on for 50% off your first box, free shipping and free dessert for life. Must be an active subscriber to receive free dessert. I don't want to make you a subscriber. All right. Coach, I got to ask you to start this final segment.

So you picked the 49ers on Friday. And you sounded pretty convinced. at what point in the game did you say to yourself, yeah, I don't think I got this one right. Opening kickoff. I could have said when they got off the bus. But right away, it was a different environment. They, you know, minus Kittle, minus, you know, McCaffrey for that matter.

You know, he got a stinger. and they were out classed in Seattle. And it did not take long. 41 to 6 final score. Jake, what was your big takeaway from the divisional weekend? You know, my biggest surprise was, honestly, Patriots, Texas that C.J. Stroud went out there and laid an egg like he did again. I thought the Texans defense could have kept them in that game.

I thought they should have kept them in that game, but C.J. Stroud just couldn't do anything with it. The other one is the Broncos. is winning. You guys probably remember me being sick of the Broncos for whatever reason. I still, I mean, they're now without Bo Nicks. But the fact that that was a game in the fourth quarter with all of the issues of the bills had in that game, all of the turnovers the bills had in that game, that's why I don't really buy the Broncos. Yeah, the Broncos ended up winning.

The bills ended up making too many mistakes. Josh Allen choked, in my opinion. I don't think he played a very good game. had the game winning touchdown. He went 0 for 3 with a first and 10 in the low red zone with the chance to take a two score lead in that game. Didn't get the job done. The Broncos tied the game. And again, a chance to win it in regulation on the following drive.

Air mails, Dawson Knox on what would have been a difficult throw, but certainly a throw that he could have made. That was pretty surprising to me as well. But the Seahawks on the other side, I thought the 49ers could have given them a game. But I continue to be very impressed with Mike McDonald. Excited to see Mike McDonald and Sean McVeigh in the NFC championship being this weekend. That should be a fun matchup. That's going to bring back memories of coach in 2010, week 17 against the Rams for the NFC West title. Only this time

it's for the Super Bowl. So, or it's to go to the Super Bowl to represent the NFC. I'll say this. And I know we talked about them in the last segment. I will never again question Sean McVeigh and Matthew Stafford and their credentials. To go in to go into Chicago. And, okay, not only win, it's one thing to win that game. It was cold. It was snowing. I mean, the soldier field was raucous all night.

The one thing that impressed me the most was, you think about the play Caleb Williams made, which if the Bears win that game, you're seeing that play on every single edition of SportsCenter this week, probably every single edition of every live show on NFL network. You know what that reminded me of? You remember the deep ball from Joe Flacco to Jacoby Jones? on the right side line against the Broncos. Yes. Like 2012 or whatever, 2013, whenever that was.

Mile high miracle. Mile high miracle reminded me so much of that play where the DV just looked like there's no chance this ball should be completed. And then it is. I mean, a bit of a more difficult throw for Caleb Williams, the like 52-yard fade away versus Joe Flacco in a muddy pocket stepped into it a little bit,

but was really reminiscent of the mile high miracle for me, that Caleb Williams throw. I love that comparison. And then to be able to, you have to put on your first possession of overtime for the Rams. The bear is going to afford down conversion. All they have to do is basically, you know, not turn the ball over and they're probably going to get a game winning field goal. And coach, they do. And not only that, but Jake, you mentioned him in our last segment, Kobe Durant, two picks on Sunday,

one on the first drive of the game, another one in the second half. It's that why right there, the L.A. Rams, they're coaching and Matthew Stafford's quarterback played, that throw to Devonte Adams, he made an overtime is one of the one of the way. of the best throws he's ever made. And coach, you look at that NFC championship game. We'll talk about it more on Friday in our final segment then. That is going to be the ultimate chess match between a high-octane Rams offense and a Seahawks defense that is playing with sky-high confidence.

I tell you what, both sides of the ball on both teams. This is going to be a slug festival. First of all, this is round three for them for each of them. You know what? They played each other three times. One on the road, one at home, and now you go back to Seattle. You know what? It is going to be, they're very familiar with each other, as everybody else is in the NFC West.

It's going to be an exciting contest to see the advantage. I'll tell you what, they're going to get the 12th man up there rocking and rolling like it was the night. And I tell you what, that could be beast mode two with a quake. the size of, shoot, something we don't even feel here in Southern California. Wow. How much of a chance do you guys give Jared Stidham and the Broncos on Sunday against the Patriots? I mean, that's going to be a defensive issue, right? Can they get Drake made and make some mistakes?

Can they capitalize on some turnovers? I'll believe Stidham can pull a Nick Fools when I see Stidham pulling Nick Fools. But I loved Nick Foll's tweet. Oh, that was hilarious. That's an all-timer. He was taking to social media to say what he said about the Patriots. That was a good one. Coach, did you see that tweet Nick Foles posted?

He says, he said on Sunday night, I hear the Patriots have struggled against backup quarterbacks in championship games before. And you know exactly which game he's referring to when he played against them in Super Bowl 52. It is funny. How about that? Yeah, that's great. Nick Foles. You want to talk about a guy that never has to buy a drink or a cheese steak and fill.

ever again, that's Nick Foles. All right. I'll say this, Jake. I know you mentioned Texan Patriots, C.J. Stroud. I was, I was wondering if they were going to bench him for Davis Mills in the second half, truthfully, because of the way that game was going. Houston could have won that game very easily. The Patriots, they made some big plays.

Kishon Booty's catch was insane. It was a tremendous catch, but Houston had so many chances to win that game. Go ahead. We just saw, I was just going to say, we saw so much terrible quarterback play for a divisional round of the playoffs. Like, it doesn't happen terribly often, but Bo Nix might have had the best performance out of any court. And I just talked all that crap about Bo Nix last week.

Like, C.J. Strave was terrible. Matthew Stafford delivered in the clutch, but got away with some stuff, man. And I don't know if he's going to get away with that against a much better defense in Seattle. Drake May played one of his worst games of the season. Brock Purdy had no chance. Caleb Williams was very up and down. obviously through the three picks, was airmailing footballs all over the place. Quarterbacks are going to have to step it up this week, or we could just see this continuation

of the pendulum swinging back toward defense, right? You're seeing some defensive coaches getting hired around the league a little bit more. You've got a really good chance of, for the first time since Bill Belichick, I think, a defensive background head coach winning the Super Bowl this year. You might end up with a defense-on-defense background if it's Vrable and Mike McDonald. So we'll see what happens in these conference chance. championship games. We could be seeing the pendulum swinging both toward the NFC and toward defensive head coaches. Of the final or of the four head coaches that have been hired so far, there are four

of the 10 teams with open head coaching spots, four teams have hired head coaches. Only one is an offensive mind of head coach. And that's Kevin Stefanski. John Harbaal, special teams background, Robert Salah, who the Titans hired at the 11th hour last night, essentially, defensive coordinator. and then Jeff Hathley going to the Miami Dolphins defensive coordinator from Green Bay. So just something very, very interesting point you bring up there, there, Jake, swinging back to the defense. And 10 years later, it's still Patriots Broncos in the AFC championship. And it's very tough to win in this AFC. You and James talked about it.

I mean, the AFC for the better part of this century has been run by a select few teams. And some other teams have broken through like the Bengals, but that just tells you how hard it is to win and how much defense still wins championships. Jake, as always, it is great to have you on the Bengals Squad show. You and James are back tomorrow on lockdown Bengals Thursday and Friday as well. Coach, you and I are back on Friday for the second edition this week of the Bengals Squad show where we will discuss potentially the Bengals having retained Dan Pindler's offensive coordinator or if they're looking for a new offensive coordinator, we'll get into that conversation, plus a conversation about a player that is very polarizing, it's very up and down, but

When he's on, he can be an integral part of this offense. We'll talk about that. And also give our picks for conference championship Sunday. Jake, I know you're going to be on assignment Friday. Who do you got in the conference championship games this week? I like the defensive matchup in the Super Bowl. I like the, I like Brable overcoming the backup quarterback. I like Mike McDonald.

I just think, I think there's too much firepower on that Seattle defense. But if anyone's going to get it, there's all that familiarity coach. talked about that that'll be a really fun one i'm really looking forward to the nfc championship game about that yeah i saw him i coach you and i are going to have our picks on friday when we uh teed up again here on the bengal squad show he's jake lisco at jake lisco at jac liscoe coach ralero and arthur beller fannero and a roncq i'm a frankie underscore nattie thank you for listening to the bengal squad show the twice a week supplement to the daily lockdown bengals podcast hosted by jake lisco and james rippin on the lockdown mingles youtube channel and wherever you listen to podcast lockdown

podcast network has become the number one sports podcast network in America and the world. And for more on how to become a member of the Everydayer Club, visit Lockdown Podcast.com slash Everydayer for Jake and coach Art Valero. I'm Alex Frank. Thanks for listening to Bengals Squad. We'll talk to you on Friday right here on the Lockdown Podcast Network, your team every day.