Locked On Bengals - Daily Podcast On The Cincinnati Bengals - BENGALS SQUAD SHOW: Joe Burrow's POIGNANT comments, playoff chances, can they sweep the Ravens?

Episode Date: December 13, 2025

Joe Burrow made some poignant comments Wednesday that hinted he's not having fun playing football, right now despite coming back from a Grade 3 turf toe injury. But these comments could mean that he's demanding change within the organization. Alex Frank, Jake Liscow, and Art Valero discuss Burrow's comments and what they mean for the remainder of this season and going into 2026. Just two weeks ago, the Bengals beat the Ravens in Baltimore on Thanksgiving Night. Can they complete the regular-season sweep? The guys discuss what the Bengals need to, in addition to slowing down Lamar Jackson and Derrick Henry. Support Us By Supporting Our Sponsors! Aura Frames For a limited time, save on the perfect gift by visiting https://AuraFrames.com to get $35 off Aura’s best-selling Carver Mat frames - named #1 by Wirecutter - by using promo code LOCKEDON at checkout. FanDuel If you want to be right in the middle of the action this season, visit FanDuel.com and place your NFL live bets all season long. PrizePicks Download the PrizePicks app today and use code LOCKEDONNFL to get $50 in lineups after you play your first $5 lineup. Click Here: https://prizepicks.onelink.me/LME0/LO... Gametime Download the Gametime app, create an account, and use code LOCKEDONNFL for $20 off your first purchase. Terms apply. Download Gametime today. What time is it? Gametime. Mint Mobile Turn your expensive wireless present into a huge wireless savings future by switching to Mint. Shop Mint Unlimited Plans at http://MINTMOBILE.com/LOCKEDONNFL. Disclaimer: Limited time offer. Upfront payment of: $45 for 3-mo., $90 for 6-mo., or $180 for 12-mo. plan required ($15/mo. equivalent). Taxes & fees Initial plan term only. 35GB may slow when network is busy. Capable device required. Availability, speed, & coverage varies. See mintmobile.com. Zocdoc Stop putting off your doctor’s appointments and get the care you need. Go to Zocdoc.com/lockedonnfl to find and instantly book a top-rated doctor today. FANDUEL DISCLAIMER: 21+ in select states. First online real money wager only. Bonus issued as nonwithdrawable free bets that expires in 14 days. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Gambling Problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit FanDuel.com/RG (CO, IA, MD, MI, NJ, PA, IL, VA, WV), 1-800-NEXT-STEP or text NEXTSTEP to 53342 (AZ), 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat (CT), 1-800-9-WITH-IT (IN), 1-800-522-4700 (WY, KS) or visit ksgamblinghelp.com (KS), 1-877-770-STOP (LA), 1-877-8-HOPENY or text HOPENY (467369) (NY), TN REDLINE 1-800-889-9789 (TN) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

I'm Alex Frank and I'm going to cut right to the chase. The Bengals may be failing Joe Burrow and that is something I don't think any of us thought we would be in this position a few years ago, right, Jake Lisco? I don't think there's any doubt that the Bengals have let Joe Burrow down in many ways in the last couple of years in particular, but how much do his comments mean? I'm still on defense. I don't think he was having a great day, but extrapolating beyond that is beyond our knowledge. And coach, when your franchise quarterback makes the poignant comments that he made, that sends a message to the organization.

Oh, without a doubt. You know, it's really, when things happen on the field, it's in his hands. And he's taking ownership in it. He's the leader of the football team. And a couple weeks ago, we talked about being the lack of a few leaders. Well, he's back. And when he talks, people need to listen. Yes, they do.

All that and much more coming up on Bengals Squad. Today, it's the Bengals Squad. Everything Cincinnati Bengals every week. Breaking down all the big hits and game-changing plays from the Queen City, the way only the Lockdown Podcast Network can. From the jungle to the playoffs, the Bengals Squad show starts now. Indeed, it does on this Thursday night. Welcome to Bengals Squad on the Lockdown Bengals YouTube channel and the Lockdown Podcast Network,

the number one sports podcast, Never Going to America and the world. Want to give a shout out to our everydayers. You can be a part of the Everydayer Club too by making lockdown Bengals or the Bengals Squad show your first listen every day. I'm Alex Frank, Avrakke underscornati, joined by Jake Lisco at Jake Liscoe and Coach R. Fulero at Arthur Valero 54 on Twitter. We got a lot to get to today. I'm going to do something that we haven't normally done on this show.

we started Bengals squad about a month ago. So I'm going to share my thoughts briefly on Joe Burroughs comments yesterday. And the big takeaway is him saying or him implying that he's not having fun playing football right now. And this is after he talked about, you know, his desire to come back from a turf toe injury grade three, despite the Bengals being three and eight. So it's not hard to read the tea leaves that Joe Burroughs. borough has been frustrated the last two years. There is, and this is the most damning stat against the Cincinnati Bengals, they are four and seven over the last two years when scoring 33 plus points.

That shouldn't be. And I'm so sick and tired of talking about whether it be on this show or with people in the community about the same darn thing when it comes to the Bengals. well, they're really good offensively, but man, their defense is just not good at all. And unfortunately, in what should be a very prosperous era of Bengals football, now we are kind of back to square one. And it shouldn't be this way with Joe Burrow. And that's why his comments yesterday could be him without saying it demanding change. Jake, I turn to you first.

Is that how you took the comments he made yesterday about him not having? fun playing football, him talking about the injuries he's been through, how tough that is, you know, for his brain, his body. When you hear those, do you think he's maybe demanding some sort of change within the organization? I don't know. Maybe. I, again, like I said in the open, don't know what the takeaway really is. I think that you can lead yourself to any conclusion that you want, depending on what you think

is going on, what your life experience has been. been and those of you that have been in a locker room probably are going to hear that a little bit differently. And I'm curious to eventually when we hear Art's thoughts on this, see how it struck him as opposed to how it might strike fans, especially newer fans, fans that have only been around with the Cincinnati Bengals since Joe Burrough arrived with the Bengals. And I think he wasn't having a very good day. I think that we can say that. I think that is probably something you can logically take away within the bounds of realism that don't necessarily require you to make too many logical leaves. I think that there will be or have been or both conversations between Joe

Burrow and ownership or Joe Burrow and the team's leadership because the team has underachieved. And I don't think there's any running from that. I think that he's unhappy with the team's position right now. And I don't think that that's a leap to make either. He was working his butt off to get back from this turf toe injury early. We should have been talking about them opening his practice window this week if the original timelines for this turf toe recovery had held up. He's been back for two weeks already and it could have even been three in retrospect and how quickly he was off the injury report entirely after he came back and how well he's played in those games since he's returned. So extrapolating to Burroughs subtly sending a message to the front office, I don't think he has to.

It could be, right? It could be him starting to do that. But this is different to me than the T. Higgins comments around this time last year in December last year. It's different than something like that because I think it could be just as simple as, you know, last week, not last week, two weeks ago, I guess now. When they beat Baltimore, you had a lot of fun in that game, right? he has fun when he wins, doesn't have fun when he loses, doesn't have fun when he's effectively knocked out of the playoffs. It could be just as simple as that.

They're not winning right now. He worked his butt off to get back. They went one and eight without him. He came back and saw this very thin path forward. They lost. Probably not very fun to feel like you're going to be on the outside looking in for three straight years after you went to an AFC championship game in a Super Bowl in your second and third year in the NFL.

Yeah. And that's the thing. This team has underachieved. And you mentioned it in the open. When we think about Joe Burroughs, when he, Joe Burrow, excuse me, when he speaks, we listen. And these comments to me, look, he's not going to throw Zach Taylor under the bus. He's not going to throw any coaches or players or front office. But when Joe Burrow talks, it is in a calculated, timely manner.

Coach, as a member of the coach and staff, how are you taking Burroughs comments yesterday? Well, I think that you look at the situation that he did come back in. He came back. He was all in. They won his first game. Second one didn't turn out so well. And it didn't turn out so well because of him. And he takes a lot on himself.

So when he's speaking, I think he's speaking to everybody in the building because the frustration has overflowed. And you look at, what, three weeks ago, four weeks ago, Jamar Chase has an out-of-body experience. You know, the Hendrickson deal is happening. All of a sudden, he still lists him as a hip or a pelvis, and they tell you it's a core injury. So I think they're kind of wondering, okay, what is going on in here, and why isn't anybody speaking the truth?

And I think that's where his frustration is coming into. And in the locker room, too, we have no idea what's going on in there. And I think he's speaking in generalities that, yeah, he's not having fun. But he does have fun when we win. Well, everybody loves a winning team. That's a happy team. It is a winning team. And I think that you take those darts.

If you feel personally attacked, believe it. it's coming at you. And if you have nothing to do with it, then either you can take the responsibility or management needs to depart from you. And you're not the type of people that they want in that building. And I think that him being the leader

is just like, you know, he doesn't want to go down the same path as Andrew Luck. Yeah. You know, he's year in and year out. He gets beat to death to the point where his body, can't take it anymore. And he just walks away without reaching those goals that he should reach with all of his potential.

James Rupin wrote about this yesterday on Cincinnati Bengals Talk.com. And the fact that Joe Burrow turned 29 yesterday, the clock is ticking. And you mentioned, coach, the truth. And whether it's being spoken or not, I'm not in the locker room on a daily basis. James is. but for me from an outside perspective, this team has become a little arrogant. And I say that because you look at the decisions that the front office is made with letting certain players go and not just any players.

I'm talking about captains and leaders on defense and Jesse Bates and D.J. Reeder. And you try to replace those with young talent through the draft rather than doing what worked in 21, which was signed emerging veteran free agents. on defense. And instead of evolving over the last three seasons after going to back-to-back AFC championships, I'll never forget Joe Burrow, I believe he was talking with Tracy Wolfson of CBS after the AFC championship lost to the chiefs and him saying he believed the organization was moving in the right direction.

And when Burroughs says something, I'm going to believe it. But at the same time, I remember thinking, I hope he's right. because unfortunately, we've seen this franchise think, well, back-to-back AFC championships, we just need to keep making a few tweaks here and there in the offseason and we're going to be good for a long time. That's not how this works. And you can point to multiple instances over the last two seasons. Jake, you remember this.

After the Monday night game against the commanders last year where they lost 3833, Burrow was terrific that night. It didn't matter. The Bengals didn't win. Burrow and Taylor had a closed doors meeting. after that game. We still don't know what was said. I kind of would like to know now what he said. You can go to this year after the Bears game. Joe Burrow immediately left the stadium following the game. And I think his mindset was, I'm going to come back and do everything I can to do that and to take this team to the playoffs.

But yet two games in, Sunday's game was the same darn thing that's happened the last two years. years where Burrow plays really well most of the game and he's going to make mistakes. He's human. It shouldn't be where his mistakes cost the Bengals the game. It's that way the fans feel it. The team feels it. And he has to think that I should not have to be perfect to lead this team to victories. Is that how you guys see it?

I think his need to be perfect is exacerbated by. the defense, right? If the Bengals don't give up a touchdown to Josh Allen in a minute and 10 seconds or whatever it is after taking a 10 point lead in the fourth quarter, recapturing a 10 point lead in the fourth quarter, there's probably not as much of an impetus to put in these run plays that have a pass option tagged onto them, especially under center where Joe isn't as comfortable. He's played his career largely from the shotgun. He's done more under center stuff this season because the Bengals have put more of that in their offense and they have attached to all of their running plays.

Not all of them, but many of their running plays, a pass option. And when they get that rotation, that's telling Joe Burrow that corner blitz is coming again. They've got a condensed formation. The bills like to blitz the corner on those condensed formation. So he tries to throw into the blitz there, tries to beat it, tries to get eight yards instead of two yards maybe that they get if he hands a ball off. And Chase Brown was not running well, obviously. Chase Brown in the backfield on that play.

And to that point on that drive, they'd already burn something like two and a half minutes. They're on the Buffalo 33. They're in a first and 10, right? But if you're not sitting there with a three point lead, you've got a 10 point lead. Maybe you're calling straight runs. You're not even giving them the run plays with the pass option tagged on. Maybe they do. I don't know.

They like to keep the ball in Joe Burroughs hand there. But if you're talking about we're already in fringe field goal range, we can just keep the ball on the ground here. and kick a field goal to go up 13, instead of kicking a field goal to go up six, who cares if you go up six against the Buffalo Bill's way they're moving the ball in that game? That's where the perfection is, Joe Burrow played a perfect game

until they threw a pick six. And it's really unfortunate that it happened when he did, but they already had a 10 point fourth quarter lead that the defense promptly gave up. So that's where the complimentary part of this comes into play, right? And it's not like the defense is entirely to blame. Joe Burrow didn't notice Christian Benford coming on the corner blitz earlier in the game, got fooled by the rotation, thought it was a rotation to probably a cover two,

thought he had all day. And so he took a sack that he didn't see coming. T. Higgins on that same drive had a drop and misjudged a ball that wasn't perfect, but he certainly could have caught on that third and 18. So there's plays all over that could have led to a different outcome. But what I keep coming back to is we don't have to force Joe Burrow to be perfect if the defense can be a little bit better so that they're not in these situations where, man, we really need another touchdown here because the bills keeps scoring touchdowns on us,

and it only took him a minute to do it in the fourth quarter where instead you could just be talking about running clock. Coach, what is it, what kind of stress does that put on a franchise quarterback when he knows he has to be perfect and score touchdowns on every drive? It's almost unattainable, right? It is unattainable. He's got to play within himself. And he's got to play with the ability to allow others to make plays.

That's what they're constantly preaching to them. Don't force the ball. Don't force the tempo. Don't force. Just let it come to you. Relax, have fun. Play the game like you can play it. You take that back and all of a sudden now,

every time you score, they answer it with a score. And whether they're tied with you, up by three or down by three, it's still close. And you're trying to break this thing open because that's the competitor he is. And all of a sudden now, nothing is ever good enough. You can never score enough points.

So let's continue. He puts it on himself to let's try to score every time we had the ball, like the first three possessions. All of a sudden now he's thinking, hey, we can do it, we can move it, we can score. And all of a sudden, next thing you turn around, and they're down by seven.

And you've just had three perfectly operation football drives. And yet you look in the rearview mirror and they're still there. That's frustrating. Yeah. And it's been that way so many times over the last two seasons. And especially after the Ravens game, I think Joe Burrow maybe thought this defense was making improvements, but then it reared its ugly head again at the worst time on Sunday in Buffalo.

We'll talk about if we're worried about Joe Burroughs longevity coming up next right here on Bangle Squad. Guys, it's 2025 and it's almost 2026. And those days of waiting for something to become a full-blown emergency before you see a doctor, well, they're over. No more, quote, walking it off for six months. No more pretending that weird shoulder stiffness is, quote, just sleeping wrong. It's time to take your health seriously. And Zok-Doc makes that easier than never.

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That's Z OC, D-O-C dot com slash locked-on NFL. Zock-D-com slash lockdown NFL. A reminder to check out James Rapine and Jake Liscoe on Lockdown Bengals. Their episode is out for today, previewing the Bengals and the Ravens Sunday at Paycourt Stadium at 1 o'clock. It is going to be frigid like weather conditions. You can be part of the everydayer club on the lockdown podcast, the number one sports podcast network in America and the world by making lockdown mangles and mango squad.

Your first listens every day. Coach, real quick, I have to ask you because this is just a fascinating story, especially if he starts on Sunday. Philip Rivers, 44 years old. He hasn't played football in nearly five years. He's coming out in retirement. He could start Sunday for the Indianapolis cold. Just out of curiosity, when you first watched Philip Rivers play, what were your impressions on him?

Oh, can he throw the ball? He can throw it. He's big. He's strong. Very accurate. He is timeless. And now that he's got five years under his belt, because you know what? He's been coaching his son's team.

He's been active in the game, and he's been probably throws every day. You know, now the players are a little bit slow. But, you know, hey, he can go out there for a game or two. You know, as long as they make it very, very complimentary towards what he's capable of doing. Yeah, I think he's going to be okay. But they need some help. And Jake, I think one thing that's interesting for me is the Colts front office is going to the ends of the earth in midst of a dire situation, Daniel Jones, tearing his Achilles on Sunday in Jacksonville, to bring Philip.

Rivers out in retirement. And it just makes me think, what if the Bengals had done something like that earlier when Joe Burrow got hurt? They ran it with Jake Browning. It didn't work. And it just makes me think that a front office like the Colts is just running circles around the Bengals this season. Do you view it that way? In retrospect, I can see why it's easy to argue that the Bengals should have made a move earlier with Jake Browning. And I've always been a bit of a Jake Browning skeptic, but from their perspective, they won games with Jake Browning in the past with a team a couple of years ago that had lost Joe Burrow as well. So their thought initially must have been, we've won with this guy before, he's been able to execute our offense before. So we're going to try

it. We've kept him around for a couple of years as a backup for a reason. They really like him in the classroom. They really like the way that he sees the game, but the results weren't there. Now, do you make a move after one game, maybe it's just a bad game. Everybody has a bad game every now and then. Could they have made a move after that second game? Yeah, I think so. I think at that point, that's enough. That's probably all you need to see, even in the most charitable, and this is the most charitable, I think, interpretation of what the Bengals did. So were they at least a week too late? Yeah. Could they have done more in the offseason? Yeah. And that's probably the bigger point to me. this team can't seem to multitask in the offseason,

all of their front office resources for a period of time, seemingly dedicated to getting the contracts done with Mar Chase and T. Higgins, which are contracts, and we don't need to get into this today, that I don't like the structure of from a cap allocation perspective. I don't take issue with the overall money. I think that's fine, but the Bengals could have done more with their offseason if they were a little bit more of a forward-thinking team.

That's probably a conversation for the off-season. But when you start to talk about things the Bengals could have done differently, it goes back to the offseason this last off season and two off seasons ago when foreseeable issues that we talked about on lockdown Bengals going into those off seasons, we're not adequately addressed. Exactly. And that's the thing that I think frustrates a lot of Bengals fans is that this organization will act.

But the problem is they are a reactive organization. They're not a proactive organization. Look at organizations like the. the Rams or the Eagles or the 49ers, all these organizations that get out in front of foreseeable issues and the Bengals, it's like they've changed a lot of the last few seasons and they deserve a lot of credit for that. But the problem is even those changes like the Ring of Honor and modernizing the game day experience.

It's like, great, you did that. Unfortunately, you were kind of a little late to the party. And that's unfortunately the identity of this organization. It still is that. And all the reasons, Jake, you just outlined about the Bengals front office and how they handled Jake Browning and his three starts earlier this season, the Vikings game issue said, look, you're going to have bad games. Teams have bad games. We all thought, okay, go to Denver, play competitive, show something. He didn't.

Detroit. It reared its ugly head. But it shouldn't have come to that. It shouldn't have come to that. Right? And now, I just worried the way this organization. operates, that it's going to potentially, and I don't think it will, although the worry is very real, is that they're going to compromise Joe Burrough's longevity.

Coach, do you view it that way? Because Joe Burrow, it could be one of the all-time great quarterbacks in NFL history. His pocket presence is up there with any great quarterback in the history of the game. But when you have an organization like the Bengals that operates the organization, way it does, do you worry about how long Joe Borough can play in the NFL and potentially win a Super Bowl with this franchise? Oh, I think Artis muted there. We'll get him back here shortly. Jake will turn to you while we get Art's mic working again. Oh, I think we got coach here. Coach, real quick, do you worry about the way this organization operates? How long, oh, we still don't

have him. Jake will turn to you while we get Art back. Do you worry about Joe Burroughs longevity? I worry about it insofar as if he has another significant injury, and I hear you now, Art, if he has another significant injury, that's worrisome or beyond worrisome. But do I worry about it in terms of how the Bengals operate? I don't know. Like maybe he gets fed up with him the way Carson did. That comes to mind. I don't think he's there yet, but you could see it going that way if the futility continues,

if they continue to have these seasons that just lead to defenses that are catastrophically bad and then continuing to lose these 30-plus-point games. But the biggest concern to me is really does he have another catastrophic injury? Because an ACL and a full knee reconstruction, a rare wrist injury, and a grade three turf toe aren't minor injuries by any stretch. and he is clearly sick of going through the rehab. I mean, even stuff like the open appendectomy he had to have before one season in training camp, the calf strain, those are smaller things

that just are body blows when you add to the haymakers he's taken from some of the injuries he's had. So, like, that concerns me more than anything to do with what the Bengals are doing. And the one thing that I think is working right now, and we'll see how this goes for the rest of the season. We'll see how this goes in the off season is. They do have the best offensive line they've had in front of them, at least in the last two weeks.

They've had their best back-to-back pass-protecting weeks since probably a decade ago in the last couple of weeks. And that is really encouraging to see that Joe Burroughs been able to play with good protection. He's still getting these guys lined up. Great. He's getting them into the right protections, and they're then executing. So without having a great,

layering weak link because Dylan Fairchild has developed nicely. Dalton riser has settled in. Orlando Brown has bounced back. We're seeing the steady progress from Omarius Mims. And Ted Harris is still the consummate pro that we worried he maybe wasn't early in the season, but he again has settled in as the season's gone on. At least the offensive line is playing better. So do I think that there could eventually be some exasperation with the Bengals front

office that could lead to something dire happening between Joe Burrow and the Bengals? It could get there. I can't rule that out. I can't sit here and say that's not going to happen, but I don't think that's happening now. I do still think there's an opportunity to write the ship. Coach, how much do you worry about Burroughs longevity? I considerably.

You know what? There's only so many hits a guy can take. There's so many, so many injuries that someone could sustain, fight through, get back, and keep going. And as you look at it, you're trying to say, you know what, I'm in the prime of my career. I'm 29 years old. I'm going to be 30 next year during the 26th season. What are you going to do to help me be where I want to be like the Josh Allen's, like the Patrick Mahomes were, like, you know, the Lamar Jackson's, where you have built a team.

not just an offense, but built a team that we can have success with. Week in and week out. And I think it's very, very important that whether it's restructuring contracts, whether it's trading away draft picks to get viable people in the building with leadership qualities, with dependability qualities, and with the ability to play this game and not have to learn it from day one to day fifth or to week 15 and you just played a college season. It takes a maturation process and it doesn't seem like they went young and they're going to die young. And you know what?

They're willing to do that with arguably the best quarterback in the NFL. Here's something interesting that, and a lot of people have mentioned this over the last 24 hours, and bringing up Andrew Luck when it comes to Joe Burrow. I don't believe Joe Burrow is going to have a career end like Andrew Luck did. Andrew, but the referencing here is significant. Both Luck and Burrow, number one overall picks, both had immediate success early in their career, then derail by injuries. It is all fun in games in the first three seasons when you go to a Super Bowl,

when you go to an AFC championship. But it's about sustaining success. And this front office, unfortunately, while they are good at digging themselves out of rock bottom, they did it in 2011 after the tumultuous 2010 season. But now you have to understand that the standard has been raised. Joe Borough is a Super Bowl caliber quarterback. But the problem is, let's say you do bring back Zach Taylor, and this is obviously a conversation we're going to have in a few weeks,

if you bring back Zach Taylor on the grounds of, well, he took us to a Super Bowl four years ago. The culture changed under him. Yes, four years ago it did. It's not that anymore. And if your franchise quarterback making comments after the game Sunday saying, you know, I'm just grateful to be out there. That's how the cookie crumbles.

It's how the season is gone. And then you make comments on Wednesday saying, you know, if I'm going to keep doing this, I have to have fun doing it. That's Joe Borough saying, I believe that the culture is not where it needs to be right now. He's not going to publicly throw anybody under the bus. He's not going to do that. But if your franchise quarterback has become resigned to this is who you are, that should send a message to them to help you get back to where you were four years ago,

but understanding that the people around you have to change. Is that how you guys see it? I'll say this. I think that the Bengals are stubborn and slow to change, and I don't think there's any argument to be made about that. But I don't think that they're oblivious. They're not necessarily the best self-scouters historically. they have made mistakes in terms of keeping coaches too long.

But this is two straight years of defense that's playing at a level that got Tara lost and fired midseason, one of their only midseason firings in the last couple of decades, right? And so I would like to think that they could sit there and objectively see what's happening, say even if they run it back with this coaching staff, say they conclude that the coaching staff isn't the problem. Maybe they decide they need to make changes in the front office. Maybe they decide they need to expand their staff of individuals outside of just Katie Blackburn in terms of more than one person can negotiate contracts or sign off on contracts or give them the ability to multitask when it comes to free agency.

Maybe they look at Duke Tobin's operation and decide that the results in the draft haven't been good enough and they do some real soul searching there. Maybe they do decide that it's the coaching staff. Maybe they decide that they need to allocate money a little bit differently on the defensive side. side of the ball. Maybe they figure out that they need to change something in their draft process that has led to them being so weak up the middle on defense. I think they know that something needs to change, is my point here. And I think that they understand who Burrow is. I don't think that they like the injuries he's gone through either, to be fair. But I think they understand the caliber of player he is. And I'm sure those conversations will happen.

Burrow will continue to talk to ownership, both through the media. We'll see what he does. We'll see if he has another radio row tour this year before the Super Bowl or not. But I think that they also should just know. It should be very apparent that when you have the worst defense in the NFL and one of the better offenses in the NFL, especially when Joe Burroughs out there, it's pretty obvious what you need to fix, right? Like offensive lines play great.

Pretty obvious what direction you could go on the offensive line. pretty obvious what direction you could go on defense, and then it's just a matter of executing those changes. Coach, do you echo that sentiment? Absolutely. You know, I think that your window of opportunity is very, very short in the NFL. And you as a front office, you as a team, you as a staff, have to be able to realize that and grasp it when it's there, because it's flea. leading. You're right. You are so right. We'll get to the news that that surrounded Troy Hendrickson earlier this week plus Jermaine Burton. And then we will get to Sunday's game against the Ravens

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It's good to be right. Back on Bengals Squad, part of the Lockdown Bengals YouTube channel and the Lockdown podcast, the number one sports podcast in America and the world, your team. Every Day, a big shout out to our Everydayers. You too can be a part of the Everydayer Club on Lockdown Podcasts.com slash everydayer. So news earlier this week, we haven't really touched on yet. because this is our first show since after the Bengals game against the bill Sunday, and that is Jermaine Burton has been released.

Trey Hendrickson is going to be having surgery. He's now on injured reserve, likely done for this season, perhaps likely done for his Bengals career. Jake Liscoe, do you agree? I think that it's certainly more likely than not. There's a joke. I think it was Paul Dainer joked earlier this week. There's about the same chance for the Bengals to make the playoffs as Trey to return.

I think that there's a path for Trey to return. is probably like a never say never kind of thing, but certainly wouldn't call it likely. I think with the relationship between the team and the player right now. I think that that relationship would need significant mending for a reunion to occur in 26. Look at your defense right now. It's your two leaders coming into this season, Trey Hendrickson and Logan Wilson, once on IR, once no longer here. that tells you where this defense is at right now.

And it started last April when Hendrickson requested a trade. That maybe was the first signal that perhaps the culture is not what we thought it was for the first part of Joe Burroughs career in the Zach Taylor era. Coach, when you look at a player like Trey Hendrickson, do you think the Bengals handled him in his, you know, disgruntleness, his upsetting nature with his contract the right way or could they have done better with really one of the best free agent signings in the history of the Bengals? You know what?

As you look at it, hindsight being 2020, I think if you look at it as once he started back in the spring making those comments, you kind of understood his frustration going in. And when you have a quarterback like they, like the Bengals, do and you're a defensive player and they're willing you're willing to sign you don't ask for a trade to go to another team you know your problems you don't know their problems and when all of sudden it gets to the point where your problems you don't think you can live with it anymore and you request to trade then internally as a as management you have to take a look at yourself and you have to

be able to ask the coaches, where do you see us? Are we all on the same page or are we just throwing money at a problem? And you don't want to just keep throwing money at a problem because then that's all they're playing for is the money. And they're not playing for the franchise. They're not playing for success for the team. You know, when you're not endearing to your players, they don't want to be there. And you have to make sure that it is. Now, Paul Brown, greatest football mind ever. Yeah.

But you know what? You're their kid. You're not him. Just like all the Bill Belichick disciples that go out and fail. Because you're not him. And times have changed and you have to change. The thing about Troy Hendrickson for me, and I think it speaks to where the Bengals are right now as an organization.

And I have used the word arrogance on this show and with people that I have talked with in the community. It's the fact that particularly with Joe Burrow, there is a wonder, for me at least, if the Bengals organization has taken advantage of him and with other guys like Jamar Chase because they played games with him when he was negotiating his contract. extension. They did the same thing for T. Higgins. Ultimately, those worked out, but what if it had happened earlier? What if they had gotten out in front of it? You look at the Detroit Lions, an organization that for years was viewed as a laughing stock. Last off season, Aminra St. Brown, paid. Penai Sewell, paid. Uh, Jared Gough, paid. Like, they got out in front and they were able to fix other areas.

Now, coach, you bring up something very interesting, throwing money at a problem. Because you do want to spend money to fix your issues. But you also want to spend money on your strengths, which the Bengals, to their credit, did this offseason with Jason Higgins. But you have to be precise and calculated with what your biggest needs are. And you don't want to just sign Lucas Patrick just to sign a guy at offensive line. You don't want to sign, you don't want to throw money at Oren Burks because you need to sign a linebacker. Like, the thing that made the 21 free agency spree so great was people said, and Jake, you can agree or disagree with me on this.

From my perspective at the time, it was, well, they need to spend money on the offensive line. And they signed Riley Reef. Well, they also realized our defense has stunk the last few seasons. so they spent money on Hendrickson, B.J. Hill, Mike Hilton, Eli Apple, Chinobe, and Woosier, look at what it did. So, it just, what has happened with the Bengals organization that they have become just, they think that what they've done or what they did in 21 and 22 is going to work, unfortunately, it's not. And that's where I think Joe Borough is frustrated and change could be coming. And the latest with Trey Hendrickson, they maybe took advantage of him. Sorry, what exactly was the question there, Alex?

There's a lot there. I just want to make sure I'm asking the right thing. I left that open-ended. But like, if this is the last of Trey Hendrickson, what's his legacy in Cincinnati? Well, I think he's the best pass-fresser they've ever had at the end position anyway. Maybe second best. maybe there's an argument, but when you count Gino Ackins, I think, certainly there's an argument, but he's an interior player.

I don't know what the legacy is. I think it's a strong legacy for Trey Hendrickson that has a really ugly ending, but a lot of the endings for strong legacies with the Cincinnati Bengals have ugly endings because this front office negotiates without emotion. They negotiate with ice in their veins to their detriment. And Coach, I think you talked about this when the organization doesn't endure, doesn't endear themselves to the players, you end up with some of these relationships toward the end of them becoming pretty high friction relationships.

You can go back to Andrew Whitworth, even the end of AJ Green's time in Cincinnati, the end of Chad Johnson's time in Cincinnati, a number of Bengals legends, Willie Anderson's time in Cincinnati, not concluding with just that final push in Cincinnati, the list of guys that have started and ended their career in Stripes, isn't as significant as it should be. And that's where, again, I think you talk about the front office, the way they're doing business, the reason that they're in this situation. And Trey Hendrickson is out without fault here.

This has been discussed ad nauseum. The one-year extension that he took in the first place wasn't in his self-interest. And eventually he agrees to a one-year pay raise this year because he wanted to get paid this year. to play this year, get themselves a free agency next year. And neither side really budged for better or for worse, probably for both parties, I think didn't work out for Trey, didn't work out for the Bengals. And the part of this is frustrating that you started to get to there, Alex, is like all this money that they're spending on the offensive side of the ball, great, sure, but they get there late. And so they're spending more where if they get there early, they save money.

And going back to what I talked about earlier, if they structure these contracts, a little bit differently, and this is cap nerd stuff, but they structure these contracts differently. They have plenty of cap space to go make more substantial moves on the defensive side of the ball this year than resigning BJ Hill and Joseph Osai. They could have done more, but they were preoccupied with getting the wide receiver contracts done, and they were structuring those contracts in such a way that those cap hits in 2025

were bigger than they needed to be, and then they didn't do enough on the defensive side of the ball. And that was unfortunately something we could see come in a mile away. Coach, I look at Joe Burrow and him coming back. You know, he left the stadium immediately after the Bears game. He comes back. They win on Thanksgiving night. It was great and all that.

They have a shot at the playoffs. And then the same thing we've seen in the last two seasons happens in Buffalo. And I almost wonder if he did that to show front office, the coaching staff, it's like, hey, this is where we're at. Even if I'm playing, this is still where we are at as an organization. Do you view it that way? You know what? Not necessarily.

I think he is extremely frustrated like probably a majority of those guys in that locker room are. And his frustration, because he's not a guy, he's not a complainer. He's very positive as a team leader. And he's throwing some haymakers that he wants and he needs, and he's probably suggested it before to management that, hey, do you know what? The clock is ticking.

And if we are fighting to get in the playoffs and yet we have only won four games, you know, we're trying to get in the playoffs with what, six games one? That's not right. And if you want me to, you know, to be the guy, then you have to help me. and you have to help this football team, and you have to help the guys on defense. And whether that's restructuring the staff, great. But they prove to you it's not just restructuring the staff.

It's something beyond that, it's something further upstairs. The way that you're spending money, you know, whether it's the evaluation process, whether whatever it is, it has to improve. Because you can't draft a draft, have a draft, class that has that many holes in it and want to continue to build this football team, the way you're building it. You can't keep going to the draft with desperate needs either.

They every year do the bare minimum it feels in free agency. They have patchwork solutions in place. And they go into the draft with a desperate need. And then they draft according to need. They're not drafting best player available. They're not drafting guys that can make a significant impact on the team because they leave themselves with huge holes. And the other factor, you know, if Joe Burroughs talking about the clock is ticking,

he just turned 29. Mike Brown turned 90 in August. And I think-clock ticking, 90-year-old owner who desperately wants to win and can't seem to get out of his own way to do it. Yeah. You know what? You look at a team that's similar is you look at all the free agency with Dallas. They never make a move free agent-wise.

Yeah. And they have a very rich owner. That was the last time they did. Yeah, and you know what? They're always right around 500. And they wonder why they haven't got back to the Super Bowl. Since 1995. Now, coach, you mentioned draft class.

Other news this week, Jermaine Burton, third round pick in 24, has been released. I think we could have seen this coming. And good organizations, yes, cut players that consistently relate to team meetings, slept through team meetings, you know, didn't travel with the team. team, you know, he had many off-the-field issues, but should this have happened sooner rather than later?

Sooner. Yeah. You know, usually players that you draft, there's kind of a theme that goes on with a lot of GMs. If you draft them, they're going to make your team for at least a year because they don't want to be proven wrong. You know, they don't want to be proven that they can't, that they chose the wrong guy. And then those people just kind of disappear. And if you're not a everyday player by year two and beyond that, time to fish or cut bait.

You got your choice for that guy you can trade him and try to get some value out of him or you can just cut him loose. And if he's a distraction, you've got to divorce yourself from that problem. He was getting. Go ahead, Jake. They just have his history of. guys that they've drafted lately, not making it through their rookie contracts. Zach Carter made it two and a half years. Yeah.

Jackson Carmen, a second round pick, made it three years. And Jermaine Burton, a third round pick. Like, these are day two picks that aren't making it through their rookie contract. Day two picks should be solid starters or better for your team. You should occasionally find pro bowlers in the second and third rounds. And the Bengals haven't been able to do that for far too long. Look, I think it's interesting. And Carson Palmer, I bring him up because he's,

been obviously mentioned in the same breath as Joe Burrow the last 24 hours. And if you watch the documentary of football life, one of my favorite shows on NFL network and the episode featuring Carson Palmer, he talked about how when he signed his contract extension in 2006, that he thought they were going to get a GM, they were going to beef up scouting, you know, that he was going to get all these things for the organization. And it never did that. Carson Palmer and Joe Burrow were two very different people. Palmer didn't embrace the Bengals organization the same way Joe Burrow has, especially when Joe Burrow was drafted and came to the Bengals in 2020.

You know, Joe Burrow has a keen understanding of who he's the franchise quarterback of. He's from Ohio. He understands who he's quarterbacking, his home state team, to put it. So Joe Burrow and Carson Palmer are two very different people. But Joe Burrow is going to say what needs to happen in a. timely, thoughtful, calculated manner. Yeah, I think that the parallel there is that both guys are high-level quarterbacks that want to win and are communicating with ownership the things that they

think need to happen and need to change for them to be in a better position. Carson Palmer got frustrated and asked out when he didn't feel like ownership did enough. And they had similarly, like catastrophic defenses and catastrophic years. And eventually he said, you guys aren't doing enough. Get me out of here. I don't want to play for you anymore. That could eventually, like I said,

that could eventually turn out to be what happens with Joe Burrow. I don't think they're there yet. But if he does feel like he's being met with a stonewaller, the suggestions or changes aren't adequate, then at some point he could be frustrated. Again, I don't think they're there. Last offseason, he had his list of demands. They more or less got that done,

especially on the offensive side of the ball. I don't think, though, that in him asking for the return of T. Higgins, Mike Keseke, Jemar, Chase, and Troy Hendrickson, he thought that that would be all the Cincinnati Bengals would get done. And they do make the late addition of Dalton Riser in training camp, that that's really helped and it stabilized the offensive line. But I don't think that he felt like he needed to say, and, yeah, the defense needs to be better. I don't think Al Golden took this job thinking that this was the set of defensive personnel that was going to be available to him.

I think as a defensive coordinator, taking over a job, you expect to have the ability to overhaul a defense a little bit more, with a few more veterans. And he probably got a few of the rookies that he wanted, and that hasn't worked out at least so far, especially for these linebackers. But I have to imagine that Al Golden thought that he would have a little bit more in terms of resources to play with

in the veteran market than he ended up having. And that goes back to the front office, right? And again, it goes back to also the fact that the clock is ticking, as coach mentioned, Joe Burroughs 29. He's not getting younger. And the urgency to have an adequate football team on the field and organization upstairs needs to be more prevalent than ever. The clock is also ticking towards kickoff Sunday at Paycourse Day, where it is going to be a rigid Sunday afternoon, not quite like the freezer bowl. My grandparents were at in 1982, but very, very cold.

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They've lost two straight games. I would expect coach, and I want your take on this, a team like the Baltimore Ravens with the talent they have and the identity. that they have, they're going to come into Cincinnati on Sunday and play like an extremely desperate team. Oh, without a doubt. This, too, is a playoff game for them. If they walk over, they fly out of here on Sunday night and they don't get, take care of the job that's at hand, they can pack their bags because they're all going home right after the first of a year. I mean, this is a playoff game for them. They're going to come fully loaded and get after it, regardless of the weather,

because they only have to spend three hours in it. And the Bengals are used, and the Ravens, excuse me, they're used to this weather. They play in Baltimore. It's cold in December. It's cold in January. But Jake, the thing for me is, like, I can't imagine what would happen. If the Bengals lose, let's say, 4138, like they did at home last year, to the Ravens, and after all the Joe Burrow comments and news this week,

what that's going to do for him? And if the Bengals do lose and are eliminated from playoff contention, then the conversation becomes, do you keep playing Joe Burrow? I don't think the conversation becomes, do you keep playing Joe Burrow? I think if he's healthy, he's not been on the injury report period.

I think he's going to continue to play football games. If he gets hurt again, then, yeah, you have that conversation. But he's not getting treatment for that toe right now. There's been no issue with the toe. I think Burrow finishes the season. And I think the conversation becomes, let's make sure that this is it for you to make your decisions about this coaching staff. And you don't get fooled as you've been fooled so many times in the past by three meaningless games after you've been eliminated from playoff contention that has led the Cincinnati Bengals ownership group in the past to keep coaches that they otherwise probably should not have kept. I think that's where the conversation goes.

I also think that Joe Burrow in this offense should perform again against the Baltimore Ravens. I think that Joe Burroughs been playing great football. He's shown a great understanding of what defenses are trying to do to him. I expect the offense to play well with or without T. Higgins, who continues to be limited as he's dealing with potentially another concussion. I do worry about T. Higgins. As a side note, we've talked about that a lot on lockdown Bengals this week. Don't know that we need to expand on that topic again today.

But if they lose again the same way, I mean, it's more of the same, right? Like, how does that change anything? It's just this is the same issue. what's happening again, I don't expect Lamar Jackson to just drop the football a couple of times this week, right? Like maybe he gives you some chances, but one of my concerns going into this Bill's game is that one of the things that was really working for Al Golden's defense against the Patriots and the Ravens in that two-week stretch where we thought, ah, maybe this defense is turning the corner a little bit, was that they were finding times to dial up blitzes that were effective. And I expect that we'll

see Al Golden try to go back to some of those zero looks that were effective against Lamar Jackson last time and have been effective against Lamar Jackson throughout his career, especially a less evasive version of Lamar Jackson that we're seeing this year as he's been dealing with nagging leg injuries. But the concern I had going into the Bills game was, well, now that's on tape. And that hadn't been on tape for Al Gorena's defense for much of this year. They weren't blitzing a lot.

They weren't getting to those looks consistently. And there was at least one play where, I mean, to take the Josh Allen touchdown run, And I've talked about this on multiple shows now this week. The Josh Allen 40-yard touchdown run where you get Dion Dawkins essentially pass setting like a safety who has two receivers in his zone. And he's splitting the difference between Cedric Johnson and Orrin Berks, who's blitzing, who's coming from five yards off the ball a little bit late. And he's getting enough depth that Cedric Johnson coming off the edge needs to widen his arc

just a little bit without even touching it, without even getting a hand on him. There's enough depth in his drop that he affects Cedric Johnson's. route to Josh Allen, that allows Josh Allen to get by an arm tackle, get upfield, because Dionne Dawkins does go take the shortest path to the quarterback, or in Berks on the Blitz. And the reason that he's able to do that, according to Dion Dawkins on a podcast after the game, was that David Edwards, his guard told him, hey, this Witts is coming. Essentially, like this is Witts is coming.

Make sure you force that edge out a little bit wide so he doesn't have a straight path at Josh Allen. So that's where I worry about the predictability of this Bengals defense. being an issue. You go look at Al Golden's comments after the game. He talked about the reason they went to some of the calls they went to and some of those clutch moments against Josh Allen is because they worked against Lamar Jackson. Well, that's not really how I want my defensive coordinator calling the game because the other teams have tape too. So I'm still concerned about the defense this week, but my expectations for this offense remain high. And that's because I think

Joe Burroughs playing a lead level quarterback. He is. But coach, I turn to you. When it comes to the Bengals defense against the Ravens offense, the obvious players you need to slow down are Lamar Jackson and Derek Henry. But what about the Ravens offense does the Bengals defense need to key on to have success in this game? Well, I think they have to take away those tight ends that have been, that have hindered the ability of the defense to get out of big play situations. I think, you know, they do have some pretty good tight ends. They got a big running back. They got a quarterback. They can throw and run. Not necessarily. The whiteouts, if I remember correctly, weren't exactly on fire last time the Bengals played them. So I think if you can kind of take care of that middle of the pocket,

that middle, kind of like in baseball, the pitcher, catcher and shortstop, I think that you got a chance to control them and got a chance to at least eliminate a lot of those play plays that continue to keep the drive going. When you are going into a game where you know, and I ask this knowing you coached tight ends, you coached offensive line, when you go into a game knowing the weather is going to be what it is, how much pride is there amongst the offensive line and the tight ends to just just set the tone toughness-wise in the trenches, you know, players' breaths are being, you know, you can see it heavily. What's that like knowing how much pride there is at those positions?

Oh, you know, that's what they're built for. You know, and that's what they are. They're the ones that are sweating during training camp, more so than anybody else. They're the ones, T-shirts are just completely wet. And as the shorts to get cold, they're the ones that are out there sleeveless. And they're going to put some Vaseline on, keep that core temperature down, and they're just going to continue to go. And it's a mentality for them don't allow the weather to dictate how you play. And you don't need to be so bundled up to where you can't move, you end up being like a turtle on your back. You know, we're going to go out there like we normally do, and our effort is going to keep us warm.

And that's her mentality should be going into the game. I mean, it's going to be brutally cold. And if Dave Lapham's listening to this, I mean, it was him that came up with the idea of all the offensive linemen to go sleeveless in the freezer bowl. Jake, final thoughts on this game, its significance this week, and for the remainder of this season, and potentially going into the offseason and into 2026. I wonder if this game has a significant impact on the front office's view of this coaching staff as we go forward. It's a big AFC North game.

And I think that if they can keep themselves mathematically alive here for a couple more weeks, I wonder how that impacts things just in that building in general. I think it should be a fun game. I do worry that it's going to look a lot like those 20-24 games again. but I hope that they at least have a good time on one side of the ball. And we'll see what kind of defensive adjustments they have this week for a Ravens team that has now seen them recently and probably won't turn the ball over five times again. The oddity is if the Bengals do win Sunday, they're going to be four and one in the division. Four of their five wins would be against the AFC North.

And then, yes, they would be still mathematically in. But the reality is, coach, this team only has. has four wins. And if they don't deliver and perform on Sunday enough to get the win, they're going to be sitting at four in ten with this much talent and a Super Bowl caliber quarterback. I mean, what does that say about this organization if it comes to that? Things need to change. Things need to change. If you have that quality, a roster. And for whatever the reason being, you have to address that problem. And it always starts from the top and trickles itself down.

Whether it's the way you're teaching, whether it's the way you're drafting, whether it's the way you're paying, you have to address that issue and you have to come up with it. And things have got to change. Or you're destined to continue to repeat yourself. Incentia is the process of doing the same thing. over and over again and expecting different results. And I hope this organization isn't that with Joe Burrow. Jake, R. Thank you.

As always, I'm Alex Frank and Freckney underscore Natty. Jake Liscoe, excuse me, at Jake Liscoe, Art Valero at, excuse me, at Arthur Valero 54 on Twitter. We're back Sunday, Coach, you, me, and Mike's antagona. Thank you for listening. This has been Mangels Squad on the lockdown, Bengals YouTube channel and the Lockdown podcast network

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