Locked On Bengals - Daily Podcast On The Cincinnati Bengals - Breaking down Al Golden's defense: What changes are coming in the trenches?

Episode Date: February 19, 2025

New Defensive Coordinator Al Golden is bringing some changes to the way the Bengals play defense in 2025. Jake Liscow and James Rapien start a deep dive into what those changes will look like with guest Mike Santagata (bengalstalk.com, Always Gameday in Cincinnati podcast) breaking down the switch to a 4-3 base defense, what a Vyper is, and what stylistic changes we should expect from the Bengals' defensive linemen and linebackers based on their expected responsibilities in a Golden defense.Join the Locked On Bengals Insider Community! https://joinsubtext.com/lockedonbengalsFind and follow Locked On Bengals on your favorite podcast platforms:Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/locked-on-bengals-daily-podcast-on-the-cincinnati-bengals/id1159723162Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7AObc0lh0WmQl5fJVgtajsGoogle Podcasts: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vbG9ja2Vkb25iZW5nYWxz?sa=X&ved=0CAYQrrcFahcKEwio_sXtj8nuAhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQAgStitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/locked-on-bengalsSupport Us By Supporting Our Sponsors!FanDuelRight now, new FanDuel customers can get ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY DOLLARS in Bonus Bets if your first FIVE DOLLAR bet wins!Download the app or head to FANDUEL.COM to get started. Bet with FanDuel—Official Partner of the NBA.   FANDUEL DISCLAIMER: 21+ in select states. First online real money wager only. Bonus issued as nonwithdrawable free bets that expires in 14 days. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Gambling Problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit FanDuel.com/RG (CO, IA, MD, MI, NJ, PA, IL, VA, WV), 1-800-NEXT-STEP or text NEXTSTEP to 53342 (AZ), 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat (CT), 1-800-9-WITH-IT (IN), 1-800-522-4700 (WY, KS) or visit ksgamblinghelp.com (KS), 1-877-770-STOP (LA), 1-877-8-HOPENY or text HOPENY (467369) (NY), TN REDLINE 1-800-889-9789 (TN) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The Bengals have to improve their defense significantly this offseason. Part of that is bringing in Al Golden to coordinate the defense. Let's talk about what changes we can expect from Golden's defense in the trenches. You are Locked on Bengals, your daily Cincinnati Bengals podcast. Part of the Locked On Podcast Network, your team every day. What on, Bengals fans, and welcome to another episode of the Locked On Bengals podcast. I'm your host, Jake. Let's go along with your host, James Rupin.

And today we are joined by Mike Santagana who wrote up the detailed changes and schematics that you can expect from Al Golden's defense over at bengelstock.com. We're, as always, on the lockdown podcast that we're covering your team every day on YouTube and everywhere you get your podcast. So if you're new to the show, you've maybe missed us talking about the T. Higgins franchise tag the news that James Rapine had a couple of days ago. Maybe you missed us talking about potential alternatives if they can't figure it out with Trey Hendrickson yesterday as we're diving into some defensive scheme.

At least that's the plan for the next couple of days, depending on if we get interrupted by breaking news or not, like Ryan Rico signing a couple of days ago. We had not had the opportunity to talk about that one. So congrats to Ryan Rico, an exclusive rights-free agent for getting a two-year deal. It's very similar to what the Bengals said with Jake Browning a year ago. And today is going to be first of a two-parter. We're going to focus on the front today. And Mike, you broke this into two separate pieces when you wrote about it for Bengals talk.

And it seems like we're going to see a pretty significant change in the way we see personnel from Al Golden's defense on base downs at least, where he's talking about being a base four, three defense, three linebackers on the field, where with Louana Rumo, we saw five-man defensive surfaces consistently. What does that mean from your perspective? Is that the expectation and what's a big difference in having an extra linebacker on the field versus the extra defensive linemen? So it's different because instead of having an odd front five-man surface, which Al did use at times at Notre Dame, he talked about being multiple and you sometimes need to. it's more often when an offense gets heavy,

they're going to match that with 4-3 personnel, whereas Looner was kind of the opposite. He'd go out there in a 4-3 sometimes. Think of the Ravens games. Think of some games you've got mobile linebackers because you have those free-flowing second-level defenders. But more often than not, at least when he had the pieces for it, he tried to be in an odd front five-man surface.

And this is only in like 20% of snaps. It's not the end of the world. They will be a nickel most of the time, and it will probably look pretty similar because Lou ran a 4-25 nickel, and Al's probably going to run a 4-25 nickel for the most part. But on these basestowns, this is different. And the main difference is you don't have a nose tackle head up over the center. He's going to be either in a shade or one technique on the outside shoulder, on, well, either shoulder of the center.

And then all the way out to a two-eye, which would be just inside the guard on his inside shoulder. both in this A-gap area, but that'll be one of the main differences you have him there. You're still going to have a three technique on the outside shoulder of the guard on the opposite side, and then two ends that can be anywhere from five all the way out to wide nines if they need them. And then obviously the other difference, what you mentioned was having the extra linebacker. Instead of having two linebackers, Pratt and Wilson, with five men in front of them, you have four guys in front of them, and you're going to have three linebackers back there. the only thing that I think will be a little bit similar is Al likes to slow play his front

when he's not slanting or blitzing or anything in that. He doesn't ask them to fire off the ball and get upfield similar to like a Demico Ryan's or Robert Sala or all these, a lot of guys that run these four down base fronts. They want them firing off the ball. You know, stop the run on your way to go hit the quarterback. Al wants them to play the run first, play slow, and deconstruct the blocks before any type of pass rush situation. You can go your hands before your feet, where the other one's your feet or fire your feet, and then you can use your hands. Just down-up versus up, down for fast versus slow.

I hope that makes sense. But yeah, basically, yeah, you got the format front. The nose is no longer head up over the center. You can even not call him a nose. I still do because it's usually your biggest defensive tackle, but a lot of these places will. just interchange those guys. You know, one's left, one's right, and they're just going to change based off the strength of the offense.

But it's different, but it's a little bit similar, too, just because of the way they slow play things. As far as their current defensive line, and it's going to look different. We don't know about B.J. Hill, but this is mostly a McKinley Jackson and Chris Jenkins Jr. question. How do you think they fit in this? How do you think that it impacts them?

I think Chris, be all right. I mean, he's probably going to play a lot of three technique. Maybe they'll put him at nose, but he's just, he hasn't been the best at stopping double teams. So probably went that away from being in the double team gap, being in the middle there. He's been really good against the run otherwise, though. Like when he faces reach blocks, base blocks, back blocks, he does a pretty good job against those. It's just double teams, very inconsistent. And McKinley Jackson's, he's not the best run defender at the moment either. Like there's flashes, but McKin, Killing Jack's his best play is when he gets to fire off the ball.

So it almost feels like it's not a schematic fit based off of like they just keep asking him to slow play these things. That's just not what he's best at right now. He's best at firing off the ball. I think there's some stuff Al does that will fit him better. He's got the size to play nose, but all of his traits are three technique traits. Where if I want a guy that's firing off the ball, getting penetration, and using his getoff and being an explosive athlete, I think of more of a three technique than I do a nose tackle.

I think the nose tackle, that's useful, but the best thing that guy can do is eat space. And McKinley doesn't really do that. And Chris doesn't really eat double teams like that. So in my head, they're both kind of fit the three technique mold of this defense. But I think just based on size, you'll probably see McKinley at that shade or at the G2I spot. And you might see Chris there if he's better against double teams this season. Because it's not as much of a size requirement to play nose tackle in a four down front as it is in a three, four, five, two type of defense.

You got to see if Chris Jenkins Jr. can put on some weight and play a little bit more at Chris Jenkins Sr.'s weight. And then you can put him anywhere, really, because Chris Jenkins, Senior could also move at like 350 pounds or whatever he played at. But let's talk a little bit about this viper position and how that fits in to the front of things, which is really a fancy name for the other defensive end, but he's from a two-point stance. We'll get into that topic and how this relates to what we should expect from personnel changes because the Bengals are going to be making a lot of personnel changes. We're talking about

Chris Jenkins and McKinley Jackson, but there will be changes in that department. We'll get to those topics as we continue the show coming up next. This is a message from sponsor Intuit TurboTax. Taxes was waiting and wondering and worrying if you were going to get any money back and then waiting, wondering, and worrying some more. Now taxes is matching with a turbotax expert who can do your taxes as soon as today. An expert who gives you in your taxes, they're undivided attention as they work on your return while you get real-time updates on their progress so you can focus on your day. And that expert is going to find you every deduction possible, file every form, every investment, every, everything with 100% accuracy. Also, you can get the most money back guarantee.

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Dodge Viper? The snake? A fancy name. Yeah. I don't know if I understand the name. Maybe you can tell us about the etymology if you know about it, Mike. where did that name come from? But it's this position in the Al Golden defense that had a lot of people pretty excited

or at least discussing when the hire was made. But as you've pointed out, Mike, it's essentially just a two-point stance defense event. Can you talk a little bit more about what to expect there if we see that come over to the Al Golden NFL defense? Yeah, I think for the entomology, my best guess is when Al goes to high school kids' homes, a lot cooler to go, you're not an edge, you're a viper. You know, you're not defensive end. You get to play this cool spot.

It's called the viper. Because for 90 to 95% of downs, this guy just plays defensive end. It's not that he's doing anything crazy. But because he's in a two-point stance, he's usually the easier person to ask to drop into coverage if they're going to run a creeper or a fire zone or something that's going to ask one of the defensive linemen to drop back. just by nature of he doesn't have to he's not as far down. Sometimes they move.

That's typically like a third down thing that they're just going to get that guy in advantage and really most defenses do that. Some people think it's similar to like a Frankie Louvo, but then you look at the depth chart that they listed Viper. And the starting Viper was bigger than the starting defensive end. And the whole way down, it's all about the same, about 240 to 265 pound players. Neither one of them, until you get down to the very bottom,

the six-string vipers were like 200 to 205 pounds. And they were like freshmen. So I think they're just waiting to put on weight. But maybe that gives you the sliver of hope that you're thinking, this is going to be a linebacker, defensive end hybrid. I don't buy it just because that's not what happened at that level. And I believe he's even said at the NFL level, like, yeah, we used Trey as a Vipa or something like that. It's just like they had a guy that played that position for the most

part and he was not somebody that was you would confuse between a lineback or defensive end. Overall, 90 to 95% the same. They are more likely to drop into coverage and do a little bit of that. Sometimes I feel like the Viper like to line up with the running back because Al runs these peel pressures. What that means is your last guy on the line, in this case the Viper, would run with the running back if he went fast out that way, runs a wheel route, runs a flat route. It's all out pressure for the most part of Al almost always kept to safety deep. But it's one of his highest pressures, six guys probably coming at him. But if that running back leaks out, there's not a man attached to him. It's just whichever side he goes, and most likely it'll be the side he's on, that

defensive end just runs with him because the pressure should get home before that guy gets toasted or something. That would be the other, I guess, slight difference. But I also wonder about that at the NFL level and with the Bengals because Trey just loves lining up or either Trey or Lou love lining him up over the left tackle. And that feels like a Trey thing to me, although he was really good when he rushed over the right time.

He's just a really good player. So I don't know. It could be either one. Maybe that changes, but I don't see it as some revolutionary thing. Cool name though. Cool name. With the Y, very 90s to me. Very 90s. Yeah. Does that, should that

Will that impact Ray, his responsibility, assuming Trey's back and lining up at defensive end? I mean, how do you think it plays? Obviously, they can have new guys there. But I think a lot of what we're talking about here is Trey Hendrickson, Miles Murphy, especially. What do, how could it impact Trey? Let's start there. Because I think that's the biggest thing, is if his role could change at all. So if you think that the Viper is 100% coming in the same iterative.

To me, I would want that to be Murphy because I want Trey rushing every down. I don't want him dropping back into coverage even if it's on 5% of snaps, which he was already kind of doing with Lou and Arumo. And so was Murphy dropped both probably about 5% of snaps or so. So I don't think his role really changes too much. I think minor changes could be if the Viper does line up with the running back, then maybe he switches sides a little bit more, whether or not he is the Viper. And if he is the Viper, he might drop into coverage 1, 2% more than he did in the previous year.

But honestly, make that Murphy. I remember him clamping David and Joku at the goal line. Maybe he is the linebacker hybrid they've been wanting. And you could just have the Viper play sides if you need to. If Frey wants to stay on the side of the defense, he wants to stay on. And that's where the running back is. You're in a two-point stance. and if the running back is away from you,

well, now you can put your hand in the ground if you want to betray, I feel, is putting his hand in the ground or playing a two-point stance based on what he wants to do quite often, too, more than perhaps what the play is calling for. But if he is dropping, then, you know, you might see things a little bit differently. But what I'm hearing is that with the way the Bengals drop their defensive linemen from time to time anyway, not a huge difference there.

But I wonder, Mike, if you can take anything away from the kinds of players out golden featured on the Notre Dame defensive front and Marcus Freeman as well, because Freeman had an impact, of course, on what we saw from that golden defense as well, from that literally golden defense in Notre Dame with the helmets as well. Do you expect a change in preferences for body types at all

on the defensive front? Because we're talking about the potential for adding edge rushing help. We're talking about the need to add a couple, one or two, at least pieces, on the interior, probably 30. Should we expect more of the same? Do we think there are philosophical differences in the type of player there? This is maybe a Nolan Smith question a little bit.

And in this draft, a Mike Green, James Pierce question a little bit. What are your thoughts there? So I think in general, when you look at Mike Green and Nolan Smith and James Pierce, I talked about 240 to 265, they are on the lower end of that. I mean, but it fits, but that's also college. If I had to guess, he probably still has a preference to have bigger defensive ends. Most of these four down fronts like to have big defensive ends. They don't prefer to have smaller guys.

That's why that general idea of a three, four outside linebacker being a small pass rusher versus a big four three defensive end exists. I don't think it's impossible that he goes for one of those guys, because, well, Nolan Smith went to a four down front. Will Anderson was actually, I think, only like, 255 or so pounds. He went to a four down front. He's been awesome. So I think there's a chance that, you know, he could be fine with a smaller defense

end, but I think if you asked him, the preference would still be there. It's not like you completely cross the guys off, but you see guys, it's 235, 240 pounds. You kind of go, eh, I like my defensive ends to be 260, 265 pounds. rather than on the lower end. And really that that lower end that the Bengals, or the higher end that the Bengals have preferred, has really been there forever. I mean, since 2000, since Duke Tobe and Marvin Lewis,

they preferred the same thing. So it almost feels like a GM thing more than it feels like the defensive coordinators have all preferred this exact player. Even when they went to five man surfaces, and you have the opportunity to potentially go lighter at the edges because you have more weight, more heavy bodies in between them that we saw the bengal stick with that model james sorry go ahead no you're right that's i i think it's it's very much and they look at receivers this way too like they want a certain style for the north

especially and i think that's that's a factor as well i know zach mentioned obviously on that day he clearly had out golden in mind but the day they fired lou he's like yeah we we want someone that understands the north and so i just think that that's they look through that lens, whether it's fair or not or smart or not. And if you're talking about a 240 pound defensive end, that's super quick and can rush the passer, it's like, all right, well, can he tackle Derek Henry? And that's what they'll bring up, whether that's smart or not. Can he hang with Lamar Jackson and Lamar Jackson shake?

You know, there's two sides for that in the AFC North these days. Oh, and not just Lamar Jackson. Can he deal with insert whoever is going to be running the buck? because it's just going to be a physical division, you know. So, but there's also athletes all over, to your point. And Lamar is the biggest alien of them all. Got to talk a little bit about Al Golden's witses as well here as we finish up the show. I want to talk about what we can expect from the Bengals linebacker room,

talking about personnel changes and expecting, well, Germain Pratt requested a trade. We need to figure out three linebackers that again. And whether that features Akeem Davis-Gaith or not, something we're going to see a little bit more of. And you can talk about what we can expect Al Golden to be looking for for the 2025 and beyond linebacker room. We'll get to that topic to finish the show coming up next.

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Let's talk linebackers here as the Bengals probably need two new linebackers. And one of them still has a diminished role. And in my mind, that's probably the. the prototypical Sam linebacker, strongside linebacker, who's playing more on base downs, probably coming off the field on passing down. So thumper role that we haven't seen in Cincinnati really for quite a while. You've got converted safeties playing linebacker for the Bengals in recent years. What are your thoughts there, Mike, as we look at Logo Wilson is going to be the centerpiece,

but they're going to add two more linebackers to that group. What do you think we should expect in terms of personnel, assuming that Jermaine Pratt's trade request is either honored or he's released, as seems to be what the tea leaves are indicating right now. Yeah, I think the main difference I have in my mind for what he preferred at Notre Dame was the blitzing, where he blitzed a lot. And all these blitz are different. We're going to talk about it.

They're not all just send everyone and light the house on fire. Like he kind of did on that last playing against Ohio State. But, you know, there's five man pressure, six. man pressure is while keeping a safety back or sometimes even having an underneath defender too and just getting creative with it. I thought all of his linebackers could blitz and could all pass rush when they blitzed and they could all go lay a hit on a fullback. And I don't think there's a preference for size when I look at them where Jack Kaiser was 231 pounds and he was one of their main linebackers, 239 pounds for number 34. Number four was 216 pounds. He played a lot. It's like you

look at these guys and they're not huge. So it's not that they want the hulking Takio spikes, three of those back there. I mean, we would take that though, right? I would. Kio was pretty good. Tiki was awesome. Pretty good. Maybe I should use somebody else, but he was awesome. But, you know, Ray Mal Ligua. That's a, that's probably a better fit, but he's not the first mine. He's not first player. Come to mind when I'm thinking of big linebackers. I think of Tikio. So. That's true. You're thinking, I was just thinking of random when I said vigil. Vigil, Vigil Ray.

Don't call Lamar Jackson when Nick Vigil's in town. Oh, boy. All right. So it's not that they want like 250 pound monsters back there the same way that they did in the old days. I think the main difference here is he probably likes Wilson and probably wouldn't have even really minded Pratt. But I think the main difference you'd look for is you still want a guy that's intelligent,

the guy that can cover, a guy that can be athletic. But Blitzing, if he's going to bring that, all these non-traditional blitzes, sending non-traditional rushers, then I would expect that he wants guys that can pass rush a little bit at the linebacker spot. Maybe that is your Frankie Louvreau idea, where some people thought those Viper. Maybe they just want that on the linebacker group where this guy can go cover, play linebacker, jump over and hit Jalen Hertz three times on off sides. Do whatever that they want them to do, but also blitz.

You can blitz and wreck havoc that way. That would be, I think, the one difference. but otherwise, I feel like it's probably going to be pretty similar where they slow play things up front. So when you have a guy that team that will fast play things up front, maybe then you want the big linebackers because they're more likely to take on blocks more often. But when you're asking your guys to play gap and a half, to slow down double teams to just eat two guys so somebody else can make a play, that's keeping your linebacker clean. And he doesn't have to take on those blocks much. Still will have to at times. It's not like you can ever be so good that your linebackers never take on a block,

but it's not as big of a priority as I think flying around the field, being athletic, covering, and then for them, I think blitzing, if they're going to keep that same blitz rate. Is that the biggest difference is the way he's potentially going to bring pressure and how he does it, maybe the variety of it, all of those things? Obviously, they couldn't pressure the quarterback this year. And so whether it's asking the linebacker, or any form of it.

But is that it if you're looking from a scheme standpoint between Lou and Al? We'll get to the back end. That's different too. Different. Yeah, this front end. On the front end, I think there's a couple differences where I think he likes to create confusion more often, where I don't recall Lou stemming his fronts very often.

Well, stem is basically pre-snap motion for your defense, where that creates communication, force people to talk on when the offense does it. it's taking all your defensive linemen and just shifting them over a gap, over to head up, over to, you know, your nose was at the inside shoulder of the guard, and he just moved to head up over the center. That completely changes your blocking plan for what you're about to do with that nose, whereas probably going to be the guard's going to take that guy he's covered into, okay, now the center has to, and they've got to communicate this. You see that more at the college level is something I think that could make sense if they bring it to the NFL level.

Just because it's just stressing communication on the offensive line. Yeah, college guys, they're not professionals that go over this as they're 9 to 5. But I think anytime you add that confusion to any part of football, it's going to help you out, create the chaos. They also slanted and stunted more often than looted, which would be your post snap communication response where your tackle is going to go out and the end loops around him. They have to be able to talk about that, pass that guy off and make that move. And then, yeah, the blitzes matter too. And all different types of blitzes where you have, he liked those peel blitzes I talked about.

But he also liked green dogging. And that is, this linebacker is man-to-man on the running back. And if he stays in, that linebacker just rushes. He just runs right at that running back, tries to run him over on his way to the quarterback. Because you also don't want to get a situation where the running back kind of steps up and then goes out onto a route. And you blitzed.

This actually happened. That's how Drew Sample had that big touchdown, I guess the bills. The linebacker green dogged. And then he jumps over Taylor Rapt. to score the touchdown and everything. But that's why he was so uncovered. The linebacker rushed. And Drew Sample's like, oh, there's nobody on me.

So that's the problem with this. But that's something that I didn't see Lou do that much either. Was Green Dogg's linebackers? I feel like when the running back stayed in and they were in some type of man coverage, that lineback turned into another whole defender. Just kind of like watch the quarterback, move with him, vision, keep eyes on that running back too if he ever does leak out. Browell is a little bit more aggressive.

Like just send them, keep sending them more people at this quarterback. Mike Hilton, the perfect. green dog when i think uh stemming i think just for anyone who can't visualize it the the madden adjustment where you're shifting your defensive line left or right or pinching or spreading them out everyone's on that this ever played madden can can almost guarantee that so if you're wondering need need that visual of what stemming is hopefully hopefully that helps mike also has a bunch of great examples in this article over at bengels talk dot com like last point here would you say there's a i mean obviously there's a ton more man we're going to talk about that in our next

episode when we get to the back end. But is that like the biggest, to me that feels like one of the biggest differences in the style of pressure you're going to see, where a man blitz is so different from the various kinds of zone blitzes or types of fire zones that we would see from Louana Room. And that's more of a back end thing, I guess. But maybe it just comes down to that preference. Is that it or is it the style of blitz different?

I mean, obviously there's only so many things you can do. but the frequency in which you go to them is a difference. Like, because there are more cross-dog stuff, for example, are you expecting your linebackers to be, as you mentioned, better pass rushers? Is that something we should expect from Al-Golden compared to Luana Rima? Yep. Yeah.

That's, I think everybody can blitz, but I think those linebackers in the Al-Gold defense, he was sending boundary corners, safetys, nickels, everybody from the sideline. Your linebackers have to be able to pressure. They have to be able to pass rush a little bit. You're going to run blitz them too, but I think the main thing I think of is that guy probably can't just straight ahead rush. And if he's wide open, he gets something.

You want to be able to beat running backs and tight ends in past protections. I don't think most linebackers beat offensive linemen. But running backs and tight ends, they're not the best of past protection, especially running backs. So you have to be able to beat them. I think that would be the biggest difference is having an ability to pass rush at least a little bit from the linebacker spot. It sure is gratifying, though, when you do see a linebacker flattened, an offensive lineman from time to time.

That's going to do for the front end of the Al Golden defense. Some of the personnel changes you can expect, some of the scheme changes you can expect. Let's talk more about the back end of this defense. We'll do that in the next episode, most likely, barring breaking news here on lockdown Bengals with Mike's Antigotaggotty. You can find the full breakdown of bengelstalk.com. Until then, thanks for listening.

Ho-Day. Have a good one.