Locked On Bengals - Daily Podcast On The Cincinnati Bengals - Breaking Down Bengals' Pick 10 Options: Rueben Bain, Arvell Reese, and Sonny Styles

Starting point is 00:00:00 We've had to make the decision between David Bailey and Caleb Downs, but there are a couple of other great defensive options for the Cincinnati Bengals at PICT and that could be available. We'll break those guys down today. You are locked on Bengals, your daily Cincinnati Bengals podcast. Part of the Locked on Podcast Network, your team every day. What up Bengals fans and welcome to another episode of the Lockdown Bengals podcast.

Starting point is 00:00:32 Part of the Lockdown Podcast Network, your team every day. one sports podcast network in the land. And, well, it's draft season here on the lockdown Bengals podcast, your regular host with you today. James repeated and myself, Jake, let's go joined by Mike Santagana, who yesterday we talked with about Caleb Downs, David Bailey. Today we're going to dive into Ruben Bain, Arvel Reese, Sunny Stiles, or maybe it was a couple of days ago when you listened to that episode. But either way, welcome back to this episode. The Everydayers haven't missed anything. Welcome back to all of you who are Everydayers. Today's episode, is brought to you by Fandall, where you can use your profit boost on an NBA future

Starting point is 00:01:09 and get entered for your chance to win a trip to the NBA finals. You can play your game with Fandul official sports betting partner of the NBA. And today we're going to dive into some of the other defensive options for the Bengals of pick number 10. And maybe one day, Trenchman over here will start to bring up some of the offensive options. Maybe there's an offensive tackle that will be interesting to Trenchman, James Rupin, at pick number 10. and maybe, I don't know, we'll talk about skill guys one day too.

Starting point is 00:01:38 But today is Ruben Bain, Arbel Reese, Sunny Stiles. We're going to start with Ruben Bain, Mike. Yesterday we started with David Bailey. And I think you and I agree that Ruben Bain is a better player. But talk about why you think Ruben Bain graded higher. And I think he's honestly a better fit for the Bengals defense as well, from a size perspective. We spent some time on that yesterday.

Starting point is 00:02:04 at the end of the episode as well. But what did you see from Ruben Bain on tape? Extremely impressive run defender, where he was taking on double teams. He actually did the DJ Reader play, a little lesser version, where he kind of stops a double team on one foot, maintains balance, ends up back on his feet, square, sheds the block and makes the tackle. Just some really highlight run defense stuff. I think he uses his hands well.

Starting point is 00:02:31 I think he uses them, then you kind of elude us. I think he uses them better than Bailey. I think the way he pass rushes, the way he defends the run, he does have to hit his hands more often into the chest of his opponent. But as a run defender, I think for his weight, I think he even plays the run better than it might seem when you think of just 270-pound edge rush. He's probably a good run defender.

Starting point is 00:02:51 I think he plays above that where he's making plays that he probably shouldn't make when you draw this up. If you're the defensive court, you're drawing up who's going to make the tackle on a play, you probably weren't drawn up, you know, Rubin-Bail. to make the Ruben Bain to make the stop on a play where he's getting double-teamed. So I was really impressed him as a run defender. And then as a pass-rusher, very good get-off. We kind of talked about this with David Bailey, very good get-off,

Starting point is 00:03:19 not in the Miles Garrett tier of get-offs, I don't think, but enough to stress most offensive tackles. And I think he just does a better job of he not only can use his bull rush, I think, a little bit better. Part of that comes maybe he just angles his body a little bit better, but it might also be, I'm not sure, his weight, et cetera. He gets more movement, but hits his hands, I think, better into his opponent. But to me, has a little bit of finesse where I saw the inside and outside moves as well. So he's not just your run-on-the-mill good, run defender and can push pockets type of player.

Starting point is 00:03:55 I saw swipes, cross-chops, stuff that works inside and outside. I saw him also a little bit of kind of tempoing. You see this a lot with the really good edge rushers where they get chipped. And instead of just going full blast into the chip, take the chip, and then they're kind of stopped, they kind of slow down, beat that guy, and then speed up, slow down, just changing your speed to mess with the offensive tackle. Because now I can't use my getoff, which is really good. How can I still affect this offensive tackle before we even get to the point where I'm using my hands and a move? and that comes from maybe I could just change the tempo of my rush because it just makes you uneasy as an officer's attack.

Starting point is 00:04:32 I don't want to overset. If he's going to slow down and then jet to the inside, I can't overset, but I also can't underset this guy because he's really good at winning inside and outside. Then boom, he just hits you and runs through you too. I really liked him. I did think the arm length comes up on film. It's just, there's no way around it where there's just plays where I think if he had longer arms, it would probably work a little bit better. He's not getting swallowed up as much. I think there are times where long-armed offensive tackles beat him to the point of contact.

Starting point is 00:05:01 And then from there, he kind of can struggle a little bit to break free from that. And I also think he's not stiff, but he's kind of similar to David Bailey, again, where the lower body flexibility seems to be more that he can kind of flatten his angle, but he's not going to make any type of play where he is taking that contact kind of runs like up and kind of pulls, you know, it doesn't just run along the angle and get pushed around the back of the pocket, but kind of forces himself back up through into the pocket

Starting point is 00:05:35 and can sack the quarterback. I think of Miles Garrett and some of the elite guys, Max Crosby, making those type of plays where you see them getting pushed, and then they're able to turn the corner and then start getting upfield into the quarterback too instead of just turning that corner kind of running flat. They're not getting pushed around the back of the pocket at 12 yards

Starting point is 00:05:50 because they can't even turn a corner, but they're also not so flexible that they're making plays that are kind of awe-inspiring. So I think those are the things you look at, a little stiff, a little, you know, not an elite, but it's still a very good get-off, and then the arm length as the issues. But I really liked what I saw.

Starting point is 00:06:08 I really liked what I saw from him. He seems like a guy that he's going to hit an NFL field, and he is a guy that I think the coaches will want him on the field every down just because of what he brings as a run defender, and then also can do stuff as a pass-rrrrisher. Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you is how he would fit. just say he magically does fall to 10 and nine teams overthink the arm length because he has 21-inch arms. What do you think it would look like for Ruben Bain? Because regardless of who

Starting point is 00:06:38 the Bengals pick at 10, I think the fans want instant impact every down from a pass rush standpoint or defensive end standpoint. Could he kick inside? People have talked about that. Like how do you think his on-field role would be given the Bengals personnel? Don't include Tray Hendrickson, but Miles Murphy, Shamar, Stewart, the rest of that defensive front. Yeah, I think there is some versatility. I think he can play on the inside because of his ability to defend the run. I think if you are looking at this, I might put Shamar there. If you are going to do something where you want all three of those guys,

Starting point is 00:07:07 I'll feel just because Shamar is, he's a specimen. But I also kind of like Rubin Bain a little bit more on the edge, too, where I think he utilizes some of his talents a little bit better in space. So I think he's a guy that would make an instant impact for the Bengals. I wouldn't worry that much about the arms that you're passing him up because you don't think he can hit the field. I think he's going to make an impact year one. I don't know if he's going to be a true, I don't know, 10-zac, probably not going to be a 10-sac guy year one. But I think he'll make a good impact.

Starting point is 00:07:39 I think he's a guy that is going to be hard to move in the run game, and he's going to at least stress offensive tackles, probably turn those into some pressures. And then the sacks will see if those come or not just because of, I'm not sure. exactly how great of a finishing, you know, finisher he is compared to, I think he stresses quarterbacks a lot, but I'm not sure he gets there

Starting point is 00:07:59 and is able to always make the play. I think the technical refinement is something that is pretty welcome for a young player. He's a couple years younger than David Bailey, who we talked about yesterday as well. Zarns aren't going to grow, but he is still a young guy and has some development left and that he's coming into the league, I think, with that level of refinement,

Starting point is 00:08:21 is exciting. The other thing, the last thing for me that stood out comparing Bain to Bailey specifically is it feels like Bailey has a little bit more explosion to him in pursuit in particular where I think he's going to run a faster 40, right? But that's not necessarily the most important thing for defense events, obviously. You are dealing with some fast quarterbacks in the NFL and some guys that can run and some guys you have to track down in the open field. And so that's something you'll have to consider as well. But for everything that Bain brings to the table, there's a reason that in most of your mock drafts

Starting point is 00:08:56 that you're running out there in the simulators, he's not available at pick number 10. And another guy that's typically not available at pick number 10 is Arvel Reese and a guy that is going to be debated about what position he should play in the NFL, a guy we haven't talked about a ton on this podcast because of partially the presumption he'll be gone. But Mike Santagena has watched Reese.

Starting point is 00:09:16 We'll discuss where he should fit in the NFL and in the Bengals defense coming up next. Today's show is brought to by TurboTax. Look, tax season doesn't have to be stressful. And TurboTax is here to take all of that stress away. And it's going to make things so much easier for you, easier than ever. All you have to do with TurboTaxful service

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Starting point is 00:10:30 that the Bengals may pick at number 10 overall. Visit turbotax.com slash local to book your appointment today. Arvel Reese, Mike, on ball, off ball, both. Where do you think his best fit is in the NFL? And what were your top takeaways as you watched the Ohio State young star linebacker? I would prefer both, I think, where you're getting a little bit of the best of both worlds with him. If you have a defensive coordinator that can do that type of job, if I had to pick, I think he is better off ball. I think as an on-ball linebacker, as an on-ball edge rusher type, if you're going to try to convert him into a hand in the grass, shooting off the ball every down defensive end, one, I think he's a little light.

Starting point is 00:11:25 too we didn't see despite the production i don't know how often i saw him rush as kind of like a stereotypical defensive end or even outside linebacker type it felt like they did a lot of stuff to kind of get him some opportunities to rush the passer but they're also doing things like coffee house stunts and i know that ends in a sack and it's a rushing the passer move to me that is a little bit more of a linebacker type of thing. A coffee house stunt is where the guy looks like he's dropping back into coverage and then goes. So when I'm seeing stuff like that, I think, yeah, he got a sack. He rushed the passer. This is a pass rush. Whatever. If you're thinking of the stats about this, that's a linebacker type of thing for me where I think he might be best serviced as a, I don't know, small Donta

Starting point is 00:12:13 High Tower or maybe Frankie Louvre type of guy where he's an asset to rush the passer. He's an asset to play on the line of scrimmage, maybe you put him head up over a center sometimes and just let him beat the crap out of the center after he snaps the ball. They used that a lot with High Tower in New England, but I don't think he's the type of guy I want to just go, I don't think he's Micah Parsons, is where I guess I am, where I didn't see the pass rush juice of a Micah Parsons. I saw a good pass rusher, but I saw a guy that also was a good linebacker. So to me, the best of both worlds situation is what I'm looking for, but if I had to pick, I'm going off ball linebacker for him. All right, Mike. So let's just say he falls to 10. And I, at the end of yesterday's

Starting point is 00:12:57 episode, we were talking about Caleb Downs. And I'm like, look, Caleb Downs, player over position, makes sense. You're in on R. Val Reese. You think that he would make an impact right away for the Bengals and have that instant impact type of transformational play, honestly, that this defense needs? Yeah, I see an instant impact from him. I think he's a guy that you would put it, linebacker, you know, you would sure hope it goes better. But look at, think of how they use Demetrius Knight, where he's on the ball for some of these plays where he's the strong side outside linebacker, where they move him on the ball because there's two tight ends over there.

Starting point is 00:13:37 And he kind of struggled in that role. I don't think Reese would struggle in that role. I think he would flourish as in Demetrius Knight's role, to be honest, where he's a little bit off ball sometimes, he gets the blitz sometimes. And they put him on the line of scrimmage and let him. try to kind of be one of those types of defenders sometimes as well in a two-point stance. So to me, I think he makes an instant impact. I think he'll be a good player.

Starting point is 00:14:00 So I would have no problem taking Arval Reese if I'm the Bengals at 10. I wonder a little bit, just a little bit, is Al Golden going to really unleash what Arval Reese does? I'm not sure. But I'm also, if I'm going to be honest, if I woke up as Duke Tobin, I'm probably not that concerned. Oh, I'm not that concerned about the Al Golden aspect of this. I think there has to be an assumption

Starting point is 00:14:22 Because when you're when you're making the pick When you're evaluating the players You have to kind of assume That they will be Good if they're good regardless of you know You're not going to not draft a guy because of the DC You're not going to skip on guys That might not be a good scheme fit

Starting point is 00:14:39 Because you don't have confidence in your DC If they're that good If you're talking about picking them at 10 exactly And if he's that good You're talking about picking a guy who might be an off-ball linebacker at 10. And according to some people, isn't even the best offball linebacker in his unit at Ohio State. We're going to talk about Sunny Stiles in a minute.

Starting point is 00:14:59 Then you have to have conviction in that pick. And what's true for Sunny Stiles and for Arvel Reese is they're exposed to NFL ideas. Obviously, James Laurinitis, the linebacker's coach at Ohio State played for a long time in the NFL. Matt Patricia was a DC in the NFL, has a lot of NFL experience. So a lot of exposure to pro ideas at Ohio State in that massive program that they're running in Columbus. And I think what will be interesting for the Bengals if R.V. Arval R.V.R.V.R. Rees were available is sunk-cost fallacy stuff. You have Demetri's night on the roster. You think that he's better served as a blitzer, as the kind of player. You talk about what R. Val R. Val R. Val R. Velrys could do for you in the NFL, the kind of player. You drew the parallel to the

Starting point is 00:15:46 role that the Bengals found for Demetri's site later in the season when he was playing better. Is that too redundant if they have made that investment in Demetri's site? That's something that they're going to be thinking about. I don't think you can be thinking about that. I don't think you should be thinking about that. If you think Arvel Reese is that kind of player, if you think that he's that good. Mike, if you had to give that knee-jerk answer, if Arval-R-Vice is there at 10, do you feel like that's a value proposition for the Bengals given obviously the linebackers were really bad.

Starting point is 00:16:22 We know that rookie linebackers are often bad given the recent investment. Like is that good enough for you to pick at 10? I wouldn't worry as much about their investment. I think if I'm picking Arval Risa at 10, it's because he's an awesome player. And I didn't see enough from those two to make me stop to stop me. I'm not going to worry about the sunk cost. Yeah. That is the correct answer.

Starting point is 00:16:44 I think. It's the answer that the Bengals will come up with. I'm not sure. And the other part of this equation is the other linebacker at Ohio State, Sunny Stiles, how does he compare what's the difference? Is there a better stylistic fit for what the Bengals need? We'll dive into Sunny Styles to finish the show coming up next. Today's show is brought to you by Fandul.

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Starting point is 00:18:29 So what stood out about Sunny Stiles? And what do you think he would bring to a Bengals defense that it's the theme for me. But if you're picking a linebacker, especially 10, or you pick it any player at 10, you want them to have an impact. Could Sunny Stiles come in and give them that kind of impact? Well, 100% I see an impact. I think this is one where I wonder a little bit about the value sometimes. But I think he's a really clean linebacker.

Starting point is 00:18:55 This is one of the more clean linebackers I've ever watched where he does a great job and run defense where he uses his hands well to keep himself clean. He reads the plays out really well. I feel like there's just a couple of instances where maybe he takes those false steps forward. He gets a little too excited, takes a couple steps forward and gets kind of caught up in the trash in front of him rather than that. within kind of hanging, reading, being confident, moving,

Starting point is 00:19:21 and staying either inside the pooler or inside hip of the running back or whatever, he kind of gets a little bit, excited, comes up a little bit. But really clean. You don't see NFL, you don't see college linebackers that come into the league with his type of run defense very often. And to go with that, usually when you do, they're just thumpers. They're just big guys that can't move. They're just refrigerators with wheels that can't be moved

Starting point is 00:19:45 and they just go make plays in the run game. I think he works well in space. He does a good job, I think, of reading out past coverages. He's a former safety, so that makes sense. But I think a lot of times he's patient about checkdowns. I think that's something that is an issue because a lot of plays are basically, you've got the deep clear-out route, you've got some bait underneath, and then you have the actual thing they want to hit behind that.

Starting point is 00:20:10 A lot of linebackers sometimes creep up towards that bait in front of them. And he doesn't really take that bait too often. I think he does a good job with pass run play action as well. So I came to this thing like, wow, this is a really clean linebacker, even in scramble drills. He plasters receivers. Sometimes you don't see that from college linebackers either, where they're so thinking, they're thinking so much about their rules and like, okay, I'm guarding this area that they don't try to find the nearest receiver and latch on to him when the scramble drill starts. So I see him do that.

Starting point is 00:20:42 I think that's good. I do think there are times where he doesn't get to his proper depth. in zones and maybe widens out a step too much you can give up a pass but it really feels like anytime I'm talking about some of the technical stuff I'm nitpicking I'm just saying like there's a little bit here and there that's not perfect and maybe that stops him from being just based off of his technical ability some type of first you know true first round grade I do think the athleticism is good but I don't think it's up at like that Luke keekly Fred Warner type of athleticism That's where I think the real concern would be where I'm like, do I take a very good but not elite athlete at linebacker who is very clean technically at 10?

Starting point is 00:21:23 I think that would be something that you would discuss among everybody. But yeah, very clean linebacker. I feel pretty good about him being a good linebacker year one, making maybe a Carson Swesinger type of impact for a defense. Carson Swessinger, who the Browns got in the second round. 33rd. Early second round. For what it's worth, you mentioned Fred Warner, Lance Zerline's NFL comp for Sunny Styles is Fred Warner, which is incredibly lofty.

Starting point is 00:21:52 And I wonder if his NFL.com overlords pushed him to come up with a very lofty comp for Sunny Styles, or if that is an original Lance Zerlind thought. I don't think he hands those out like candy. The other thing that I wanted to point out here is we've talked about three of the top five players on Dame Bruegler's board, five or four. four out of the top six, David Bailey, six, Rubin Bain all the way down at nine. But for Dame Brugler, Alvall Rees is the best player in the class. He's at number one on the top 100 that he recently released.

Starting point is 00:22:25 Caleb Downs is four, Sunny Stiles is five. So a bunch of guys here on this Ohio State defense that Dave Bruegler sees a significant impact players in the NFL. My last question here for you, Mike, is you talk about the value proposition of Sunny Stiles. Didn't mention that as much for Arvel Reese, even though it came up a little bit when we were talking about that he would be an off-ball linebacker. What's the difference in the role between those two guys for you? Why do you see one as potentially value prop question and one as, yeah, I might be more comfortable with that guy at 10? I think the role that Reese would play in the NFL just comes with being a plus pass rusher on third downs, especially if you can get him freed up.

Starting point is 00:23:06 I'm not sure. I don't, at least I didn't see anything in college that said Sunny Stiles can be a plus pass rusher on passing downs. I think he's a guy that you're going to leave in coverage more often than not or try to scheme up maybe against a running back. Whereas with Reese, I think you've got opportunities to not just improve your linebacker unit, but to improve your pass rush too. So just his ability to rush the passer, I think gives you a little bit more, a little bit less worry about the positional value.

Starting point is 00:23:32 Although I do think it probably should come up just a little bit just because if you are going to play them mostly at offball linebacker, if you don't get into situations where you can just let them loose and rush the passer, then the possessive value does come up. But I think if you're thinking of them as players, Sunny Stiles is kind of more traditional, offball linebacker, and he's not going to do much for your pass rush.

Starting point is 00:23:52 Mike, let's say the Bengals did take Sunny Stiles at 10. What would your reaction be versus Rvel Reese where I think you'd be smiling? I think you'd be smiling even bigger for Ruben Bain. I think you'd be cheesin if it was Caleb Downs. If it's Sunny Stiles, though, what would it be? And I have a follow-up after that. that. I'm smiling. I'm smiling for some of

Starting point is 00:24:12 styles. Yeah, it's a position of need and he's a good player. Is that smile bigger or smaller if David Bailey is the pick at 10? Ooh. Full circuit. That's tough. I think they're pretty even for me. I think style is the

Starting point is 00:24:28 better player. Bailey gives you more value because he's an edge rusher. I might be if I'm just thinking of the players. I kind of think styles. I kind of think styles, yeah. I look at that and I just kind of think, ah, man. I know I feel way more confident in styles. I just like in the Bengals defense of it all,

Starting point is 00:24:45 year one impact, et cetera, I feel more confident styles. He's so clean as a prospect. Now I'm not sure what the, if the ceiling's going to be the same or if David Bailey hits his ceiling and he's a top 10 pass rusher or something, then you're probably looking back and going like,

Starting point is 00:24:59 I'm not sure we should have done that. But for me, when I just watched him, yeah, I kind of lean styles just a little bit. I wonder who's an NFL comp for David Bailey? Who comes to mind for you right away? Does this one come to mine?

Starting point is 00:25:11 Like the spin move, the ghost move combo? Those are the iconic David Bailey moments to me. Yeah, I mean, honestly, what he reminded me of was Will McDonald coming out to be a little, which I guess it's okay. He's been solid. He's been a solid pass rusher. But that was what I was thinking of. NFL.com said Nick Benito, just since we're sharing.

Starting point is 00:25:35 I don't see the Benito stylistic similarity. to Bailey as much there are mason thomas who will probably talk about another day he came up a little bit when we were doing the two round mock earlier this week is more than nick benito style player to me in this class and so you know we'll see but let's say nick benito for the sake of comparison nick benito versus fred warner i still think that's fred warner right if they hit those like upside yeah you're elite that's and that's why you if you have a lead it doesn't the position is it becomes less important if it's that that that you great.

Starting point is 00:26:09 Yeah, for sure. Well, we've covered a bunch of options. Many of these guys probably not available to the Bengals, right? Like, we're expecting our Belvoir used to be picked. We're expecting Ruben Bain to be picked. But Ruben Bain was just mocked to the Bengals at 10 by Field Jates. I think I've mentioned that on the podcast this week. Rubin Bain is ninth for Dame Bruegler's big board.

Starting point is 00:26:27 And if a couple of receivers sneak into the top 10, Carl Nel Tate, Jordan Tyson or something like that, calm down, trench fan. Then maybe. I'm just thinking about Bain at 10. What are you talking about? Yeah, there you go. Maybe.

Starting point is 00:26:39 Rubin Bain makes it to the Bengals at 10. But that's going to do it for this episode of the Lockdown Bengals podcast. Until next time, thanks for listening. Hootay. And have a good one.

Locked On Bengals - Daily Podcast On The Cincinnati Bengals - Breaking Down Bengals' Pick 10 Options: Rueben Bain, Arvell Reese, and Sonny Styles

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