Locked On Bengals - Daily Podcast On The Cincinnati Bengals - Breaking Down Duke Tobin's Presser: Bengals’ Frustrations, Offseason Needs & Urgent Changes Ahead

Starting point is 00:00:00 Duke Tobin isn't making sweeping changes to the Bengals front office structure or apparently the processes, but there will be changes coming on the defensive side of the ball. Let's break down Duke Tobin's one hour presser. You are locked on Bengals, your daily Cincinnati Bengals podcast. Part of the Locked on Podcast Network, your team every day. What up Bengals fans and welcome to another episode of the Lockdown Bengals podcast. Part of the Lockdown Podcast Network, the number one sports podcast network in the land. I'm Jake Liscoe, and we've been covering your Cincinnati Bengals here since 2016 on the Lockdown Podcast Network. That's a good, consistent long run of making this the best, most consistent place for you to get all of your Bengals news and analysis. As today we dive into a much longer than expected, quite frankly, Duke Tobin press conference that fans found quite frustrating, James. I think that we got some tidbits from Duke Tobin that we'll dive into in this episode, and I'm sure we will allude to this.

Starting point is 00:01:06 presser quite a bit throughout this offseason, at least until the next time we hear from Duke Tobin. That's what we dive into today throughout this episode of Lockdown Bengals. And an episode brought to you by Price Fix. You can download the Price Fix app today and use promo code Lockdown NFL. You get $50 in lineups after you play your first $5 lineup. And we're dropping this episode early. So from a scheduling perspective, the everydayers heard this at the end of our previous episode. But this episode will be coming out on Friday night.

Starting point is 00:01:32 And the next time you'll be hearing from us is sometime. in Monday's evening. So this episode will get you through the weekend, through your Monday commute, hopefully, and then we'll be back with you on Monday evening for Tuesday's episode, and then we'll be back on schedule for the rest of next week. James, a lot of frustration I found was the reaction to the Duke Tobin Press conference on Friday.

Starting point is 00:01:58 I did a poll. I did a Twitter poll. I'd like to do these to gather public sentiment at times like this, and 1700. voters responded to the question, how do you feel after the Duke Tobin press conference? 50% said they feel discouraged or worse. 46% say they feel about the same. And about four and a half percent, I rounded up the numbers.

Starting point is 00:02:20 Four and a half percent say they feel encouraged or better after listening to Duke Tobin for an hour on Friday. It's interesting. Look, it's interesting. I think that there was clearly a disconnect from what, could potentially happen on Friday with Duke Tobin talking end of season wrap up type of press conference versus like the reality and the behind the scenes and what went into that. And that's okay. And I also understand why fans would want, hey, Zach and Duke are back.

Starting point is 00:02:57 Are they adding seven scouts? Are they going to tweak that here as they start to evaluate? and really dive into the offseason and their plan and all of those things. And you could kind of tell it, but like a lot of the scouting, not all of it, obviously you have the combine and stuff like that, but they have write-ups and info and breakdowns on a lot of this draft class already. And it's just about getting familiar, having the coaches watch, all of those things that go into it.

Starting point is 00:03:27 And so the scouting on a lot of these guys, I'm not saying it's done, but there's a lot in the file. there's a lot in the chamber, so to speak. So I think that's where people were sort of bummed, honestly, is, all right, well, Duke Tobin, he's still going to be director of player personnel. Contract talks are going to be spread out. There was no clear, this is what this person does and this is what this person does. And by the way, that's something that I've really struggled with when it comes to blaming just Duke

Starting point is 00:03:56 because it is a collaboration. And I know it ends with him in a lot of ways, but in a lot of ways it does. And so that's what's tough. So I get the frustration. I'm also not surprised that he said what he said. And a lot of what he said is true. And I also understand the frustration. And that frustration really isn't going to change unless the Bengals do what they need to do

Starting point is 00:04:24 over the next four months, I would say. And those four months obviously include free agency and the draft. Yeah, I think part of this is there's nothing. Duke could have said. It is going to come down to what Duke does. There is a criticism that when asked about certain processes changing, right, you asked about guaranteed money in years two and three. You asked about, did they sign enough external free agents last year? Some others asked about why didn't it work? Why didn't things come together? Duke Tobin didn't really answer those questions. There wasn't a clear reflection on, yeah, we didn't sign enough.

Starting point is 00:05:02 guys last year in free agency to set our defense up for success. That wasn't bluntly said. Now, Duke did say they came up short on defense about six different times throughout the press conference and took responsibility for that. He also said that they need more talent on defense probably seven other times at least throughout the press conference. And it's a little confusing because he also said stuff like, we have a championship roster. He would then clarify at times, that he felt that way about the talent level on the offensive side of the ball, and that's where he felt his expectations were, and obviously they're 6 and 11,

Starting point is 00:05:40 and he even said, well, yeah, you guys probably think I'm an idiot, essentially, saying we're 6 and 11, we have a championship roster, and I know a lot of our listeners are saying, yeah, you're right, Duke, we do. And I know that that's a response out there. I've seen it on social media. And I can understand that frustration in that the process at times, and I was frustrated listening to a few things myself, James, the process being described as collaborative.

Starting point is 00:06:03 And I know that's what it is. That's how they work. But when he's asked, like, essentially, who controls a 53-man roster? I don't know that we've ever clarified that. It's a collaborative process. Like, that's a little bit frustrating to hear about an organization in the NFL, which is a multibillion-dollar organization, right? Like, you would expect that delineation of duties to be clear.

Starting point is 00:06:26 Honestly, I would. Even though it is a collaborative process and I get it. It should be. Yeah. Collaboration really started to feel like a buzzword that was pretty meaningless at some point as it got repeated throughout the presser. It should be, but again, like, there were people, I'm just going to use Jermaine Burton because he's the most recent example, but you could go Joe Mixen or whoever, like whoever's been cut in recent years. Like, that isn't just Zach saying, all right, we want this guy gone or Duke saying we want this guy gone. Like, that needs to be taken up the chain of command.

Starting point is 00:06:59 Like, that's what's tough. And you're right. You would expect there to be that. And if you were someone that was expecting on Friday for Duke to say, all right, I'm the GM, this is how it works. This is how we're going to do it. I'm going to make the calls on free agents. This is how it's just not how the Bengals want to operate. They want to operate where everybody's negotiating at least some with different free agents. Katie handles the big ones.

Starting point is 00:07:29 And Duke won't say it like that. I will. The big free agents, Katie is the one that handles them. But that responsibility is broken up some. And obviously the other assistant general managers want as much experience as they can. It's like Dan Pitcher, Colin plays in the preseason or Brian Callahan, Colin plays in the preseason. You want to experience. You want to negotiate.

Starting point is 00:07:49 So you want to push for some of those chances. And I don't think it's ever going to be clear. I think those lines are going to be blurred as long as the structure is what it is. and I was not expecting. I very much knew that this was Duke talking and not a structural overhaul of what is in that building and what's going on in that building.

Starting point is 00:08:13 Yeah. I think that that was my expectation as well. At the same time, it is frustrating to hear spelled out some of the things that we've kind of suspected. We've been critical of their process in recent years and it's felt haphazard at times. and perhaps haphazard, haphazard.

Starting point is 00:08:32 Anyway, part of the reason for that is I think because it's so collaborative and malleable, and people are asking like, what are you going to change in the process? Well, part of that could be defining processes more clearly so that they're not changing as much as they do because they do seem to change kind of willy-nilly year to year. And in that haphazard fashion where you end up with certain draft selections that don't seem to have consensus that Duke talked about, you know, generally they get to a point where they have consensus. Well, we strongly believe that that wasn't necessarily the case for certain picks over the last few years.

Starting point is 00:09:07 But if they have more stringent processes and more clearly defined roles, and that's what Duke wasn't able to really define today, then perhaps some of these decisions don't happen. And Duke did take responsibility for that in terms of helping to avoid the bad decisions and that falling on his plate, something that he needed to. to do a better job up. He needs to do a better job of and acknowledging that every team in the NFL makes mistakes. Nobody is perfect when it comes to roster construction. But Duke's saying, you know, I need to do a better job of helping us avoid bad decisions and being the person that gets us out of making those bad decisions. There's a lot more we have to get to here, James,

Starting point is 00:09:45 including a lot of the things that Duke said need to happen. And I think there's one particular quote that I want to talk about as well at some point when Duke was asked what needs to change and he said they need to win games. We'll talk about the points of emphasis from Duke Tobin that give us an idea of where their attention will be this offseason as we continue to discuss an hour of Duke Tobin press conference in this podcast coming up next. Today's show is brought to you by drip drop. One thing that I want to do, at the end of every NFL season. I want to get healthier. I try to get back into playing shape, so to speak, and the season takes it out of you, and drip drop is going to help me get healthier and get

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Starting point is 00:12:32 I like being right. And I'm hoping I'm right, Jake, when I say that they know they need to spend significantly in free agency and upgrade. I did think that that was like a key, key thing. Like clearly Duke knows that they need to get significantly better. He talked about the trenches and this is something he said in the past. By the way, the Bengals have invested in the trenches. It just hasn't worked to the level that you'd hope.

Starting point is 00:13:02 But think about the trenches. Three out of their last four, first rounders, trench picks, two out of the last three, our defensive line edges, you know, like it's, they've invested there. Their last three actually, yeah, their last three straight have been trench picks. So hopefully we're not talking about. trenches as much because they spend some of that money in free agency and use that. Like that's, they're aware their, their talent deficient, clearly. Heads aren't in the sand.

Starting point is 00:13:35 That's a Duke Tobin reference because that's what he said. Hopefully that means that they push the envelope. And what could get in the way of that? Well, guaranteed money could. That's why I asked that contract structure could, all the things that are maddening about the Bengals with where they're at right now. So we'll see. But that's my hope is that they're not only aware of their talent issues,

Starting point is 00:13:56 but they really push the envelope to make sure that they bring in the right talent. You know what gets me every time? Every time, dude, because that's about contract structure. He's like, you really want to talk about contract structure? Like, yeah, man, it's an issue for you guys. I know. Like, you think we don't get it? Like, come on.

Starting point is 00:14:13 It's like the issue. Like, would you, I think it's like if they were just willing to do whatever contract-wise, in the borough era. I think that's a bigger issue than coaching or scouting or, like, because everyone's focused on, yeah. It's up there for sure. I would say, like, there is a lot of talk about we need to get better in the trenches. And I would like to know, like, okay, how do you get better in the trenches when you

Starting point is 00:14:39 haven't hit on a trench defensive, specifically, defensive trench draft pick since, like, Gino Atkins. Is Miles a miss? Sam Hubbard's a hit. Yeah, Sam Hubbard's a hit. they haven't had like the premier hits like Carlos Dunlap, Gino Akin since then. And we'll see about Miles.

Starting point is 00:14:56 Like Miles certainly got better this year. Year three. What about Shamar? Sometimes it happens. We'll see about Shamar. They did with Amaris, but not defense. You're right.

Starting point is 00:15:05 Yeah. There's a lot of defensive trench picks that the processes look bad at the time. We've been like, what are you doing? We've asked that question at the time the picks are made. They've had a lot of head scratching picks in this area. I would like to know what or if they're going to change in their evaluation of college trench players specifically because they've done a pretty okay job of identifying guys in the NFL.

Starting point is 00:15:30 They went out and traded for BJ Hill. That worked out. Larry Ogden, Joby, DJ Reeder, those signings worked out when they did them the first time, right? Trey Hendrickson, obviously, massive success. No doubt about it. And it went the way it went at the end. But identifying those guys and signing them in the first place, as Duke pointed out, and took credit for.

Starting point is 00:15:50 And so those are our guys that figured that out. That's great. You figured it out with the pro guys. But what's the plan to get it right with the guys in college? But to your point, they're like, at least sometimes there's an acknowledgement that, yeah, we like where we're at on offense. We have world-class talent on offense. We have emerging talent on defense.

Starting point is 00:16:09 They really like the future of Daxil and DJ Turner. And that's probably something we talk about on another day. He was asked about extensions for those guys and answered in the affirmative. but he said so many times, like talking about A, B, and C level players, we need to be better in all of those categories. We need to increase talent on that side of the ball. There's no question about it. We'll take a look and see how much we can get done.

Starting point is 00:16:31 There's honestly so many times that he says things like, yeah, we need to make the right decisions to improve our football team, particularly improve our defense, where, like, there's a clear awareness of the need to get better on the defensive side of the ball where it gets complicated for me james and and one of the things that for me was like an underlying concern here is all the talk to tovin had about like yeah but it got better you know i watch this get better as the season went on it's a testament to our coaching staff we're gonna we're going to see the dividends paid for for the growing pains of playing these linebackers this year

Starting point is 00:17:08 we're going to see that pay off in the future so for all this discussion around like yeah we need to get better we need to get better on defense and i think that there's a clear your understanding of like trench play especially past rush especially that was a big point of emphasis for duke tobin as was a clutch play which we'll get to maybe in a few minutes or maybe another day we'll see what about the linebackers what about what about the third level where he expressed a lot of confidence in the cornerbacks and even in jordan battle how far does that extension go because When he was asked how many starters they need on defense. He, I think somewhat wisely declined to answer saying that he didn't think he could answer

Starting point is 00:17:51 that question without giving away his plans. But clearly, the answer is some. Now, where they are is a question because I was a little bit fearful listening to Duke Tobin talk, quite honestly, James, that there's a lot of stock being placed into this improvement on the back half of the season where some of the competition wasn't as strong and some of the games really were relatively speaking quite meaningless. Yeah, I would be more alarmed if he was like, yeah, Gino Stone was solid for us. You know, like, gone, get them out of there.

Starting point is 00:18:24 The linebackers, they did grow. They were better. I didn't notice them as much down the stretch. But to your point, it better not stop them from getting better. I don't care about. Yeah. We've talked about three level improvements all month or however long we've been doing it. Well, let's do this.

Starting point is 00:18:46 He won't be there. But if R. Val Rees is there at number 10, guess what you're going to do, right? Like, you can't dismiss. I'm not avoiding linebacker because of what we saw from Demetrius Knight or Barrett Carter. Right? Just like the Browns shouldn't avoid quarterback because of what they saw from Shador Sanders. Like, it's a very similar thing, right? Barrett Carter's fourth round pick, Sanders' fifth round pick.

Starting point is 00:19:11 He's talked about way more. Knight's a second round pick. I wish you would have shown enough. And I'm sure what they're thinking is, man, this is deja vu. We had Logan Wilson and year two of Logan. He was ready to go. Jermaine Pratt, year three, ready to go. And we added around those guys.

Starting point is 00:19:27 Fine. But they still need, I would still certainly be in the linebacker market. I also would prioritize the pass rush. I also think that they need to find a stabilizing force at safety. and whether that's in the first round, whether that's in the fourth round, whether that's in free agency, I prefer it to be in free agency. And I asked him that. And that's where we can continue the conversation is that part of it.

Starting point is 00:19:54 Because I do think part of why the drafts have been what they've been is because what they've done or haven't done leading into that. And that's scary because that leads you to, well, Duke Tobin draft and someone Jake Liskosage. We'll continue the conversation coming up next. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. A new year doesn't require a new you, requires a new James or P, but maybe not a new you. Maybe it's just a less burden you. We carry things that weigh us down or hold us back.

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Starting point is 00:21:25 That's BetterHelp, help.com slash locked on. Today's show is also brought to you by Game Time. Game time is exactly where you need to go. It's the app you need to get to your favorite live events all off season long. And obviously the NFL season, the playoffs are here. It's a big weekend in the NFL. You've got the national championship game in college football. And then before you know, we're going to be talking about opening day.

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Starting point is 00:22:29 Locked on NFL for $20 after your first purchase terms apply. Again, creating an account, redeem code locked on NFL for $20 off. Download the game time app today and get back to be. being their life. James, you asked you Tobin about going into the draft with oppressing needs at particular positions. Duke. Always.

Starting point is 00:22:51 Didn't give a very satisfactory answer to that question in my opinion. Talked about the fact that a lot of teams end up there. But what does it take, Duke, for you specifically not to end up there? That's what I want to know. What were your thoughts about how he addressed your question? Yeah. I think that's where the collaboration thing gets really weird. Like, is Duke not smart enough football-wise to know they needed a nose tackle before the draft?

Starting point is 00:23:22 You know, like, think about what we were talking about. Like, oh, well, they should go after this guy on day three or that guy on day three or this. And they get a guy McKinley Jackson who probably isn't even a nose tackle, really, to begin with at the NFL level. Like, it's tough. But that needs to be their goal. There's a reason why I mentioned April 1st. There's a reason why I did like they should not have any glare. They should be able to just start their season on April 20th.

Starting point is 00:23:51 And if they if they can't do that where you look at their roster, you're like, man, that is it. There's a glaring issue here. Well, then I think it's a very big mistake in free agency. It doesn't mean it's going to be perfect. I'm not saying that you need Trey Hendrickson on one side and Gino Atkins at 3 Tech and DJ Reader at Nose. I'm not saying that.

Starting point is 00:24:15 Jesse Bates at safety, but you should be able to go in and be like, all right, well, like last year, glaring hole at linebacker. Two years ago, the nose tackle spot was just screaming at you. And what you did in free agency, set yourself up to have to go after

Starting point is 00:24:32 this player or that player. And it's how you reach. It's how you have to wait multiple years to develop. And they can't wait. they need to be the team that goes from 6 and 11 to 11 and 6 minimum. And so how do they get there? I think they get there by being really aggressive and free agency. And I don't know if they will, but that was my chance to push them.

Starting point is 00:24:55 And I'm going to push them again at the combine because that's what they need to do. I don't care what they think. That's what they need to do. And hopefully they feel that way too. They clearly think highly of what they have on offense. And Duke said that many times throughout this press conference, especially when Joe Burroughs out there, But even when Joe Burrow wasn't out there, Duke spoke glowingly of Zach Taylor and Joe Flacco

Starting point is 00:25:16 and their ability to drive this offense forward. The development of the offensive line, Duke was very pleased with. He's pleased with Chase Brown and the developments they had in the running game. And when he was asked about and said numerous times, he still believes they have a championship level roster. Like really, he thinks out about the offense. He thinks they have Joe Burrow, Jamar Chase, C. Higgins, they have Chase Brown. They like the development of the office.

Starting point is 00:25:41 offensive line. They like the offensive line as a group and we'll see what happens with Dalton Reisner. It's very, very obvious. And he said it like there has not in the sand. You alluded to that earlier, James. They need to get better on defense. What we didn't get from them obviously is an answer as to like why they got to the place they're at. What failed? And it was asked in different ways. You asked, did you sign enough external guys last Duke deflected and didn't really give you a good answer there. He talked about the amount of money that they did spend and talked about the cap allocations on offense and the challenges that creates. But we know the way they structure their contracts.

Starting point is 00:26:23 We know their issues with guarantees. And it just makes me reflect on the last couple of years where they get to the draft of these glaring needs. And it's you say now in early January that, yeah, we'll consider year two, year three guarantees if we think that that's going to get it done with the player that we think we need. I'll believe it when I see it. You know, like, sure, show me. And that's part of the challenge for Duke Tobin here too. Like, ultimately, fan sentiment toward Duke Tobin and the Bengals is going to come down to how they execute in this off season,

Starting point is 00:26:55 how they do in the draft, how they do in free agency. And if it's the same of what we've seen, then it will be reaffirming what Bengals fans are worried about after today where they feel either the worst or the same, which is that truly the processes are going to be exactly the same. and we're going to see them continue to dabble in the fringes of free agency and go against consensus at times in the draft. And if that continues to occur, then, yeah, there's no good accountability processes being

Starting point is 00:27:24 used in the building. Sure. The actions part of this is big. And I do think the Bengals as an organization, generally that's why they do what they do and they talk when they talk, but they don't really talk and all this because they just know, like, hey, we're going to do our job. And if we do our job, all that other stuff, like Mike Brown for years has felt that way about everything,

Starting point is 00:27:47 all these, the ring of honor and all that. It's like, you know, those things are fun, but what really matters is winning and losing. And the answer is both, right? And you've got to have two sides of it. And they're figuring that out. And they figured that out for the past few years. You're going to have to win.

Starting point is 00:28:07 And so you've got to build a winner this offseason. It's that simple. If Duke does that, if they do what they did in 21 and 22, but to an even greater extent because they need to because they haven't done it, that's the other thing that, oh, well, we've done it. No, you've not done it. No, you haven't. And it irks me because if you run 20 miles, you have not ran a marathon. You can't say you ran a marathon. You might have gotten close.

Starting point is 00:28:34 You might have been, oh, you haven't. You might have been right there, but then whatever. You still haven't. So they're trying to find a way to not only run the marathon, but get that first place trophy. And it's really, really hard. And they're light years away. I mean, we're going to watch football. We're recording this on Friday night and we'll be back Monday.

Starting point is 00:28:54 Think about the teams. They're all flawed. But still, the flawed teams that we're going to watch this weekend, at least I'm going to watch, I don't want to speak for you. Light years different than the Bengals in key areas. And name another team that's going to start two linebackers, one in the fourth round, a rookie and one in the second round. It has no pass rush. And all of these things, all of these flow that the Bengals have, like they have a lot to fix. And deep down, I think they know it.

Starting point is 00:29:24 But whatever Duke said today, they would still have to go show it. And so it's up to them now. And the next few weeks and months are going to be about us discussing their options and what needs to happen and all of those things. and they're going to have to go do it. And man, oh man, I hope they do it because otherwise, I remember people saying how negative we were last offseason. If they don't do their job this offseason, Jake, it is going to be, because everyone is going to be negative.

Starting point is 00:29:55 Everyone is going to be like, I can't believe that this franchise doesn't get it. They'd better get it, Jake. Yeah. And that's really what I think leaves the rest of the people frustrated. We're not going to get to talk about Duke's other point of emphasis today on them finishing games and how much he talked about his frustration and then finishing games today. But I think one of the other key frustrations here from people are like, all right, cool, you need pass rush. You're like Duke has talked about needing pass rush for the last two years.

Starting point is 00:30:27 I haven't really gotten there. And I know Trey was hurt for a lot of this year. I know those numbers would have looked different and would have looked better if Trey was healthy all year. That's a whole can't. of worms itself, I think. But it doesn't sound like there's much of a change in the Trey Hendrickson situation. So now you're in a situation again where, all right, you understand what you need to do. Can you do it?

Starting point is 00:30:53 Do you have the processes to do it? Do you have the wherewithal to know how to do it? We've seen you build good defenses before. Sure. Did you get lucky? And it's because you picked Gino Atkins in the fourth round and Gino Atkins turned out to be a Hall of Fame level player? Can you do this on a regular?

Starting point is 00:31:07 basis. You haven't shown that you can. You haven't shown that you know how to. And now, yeah, you can talk about understanding where you're at and what you need to be better at, but it's an entirely different thing to understand how to do it. And that's what they have to show us they can do on a consistent basis. And so far, we haven't seen that really at any point in Duke Tobin's tenure. They've gotten hot, they've gotten cold, not too uncommon. But there are certainly teams around the NFL that have been more consistent than the Bengals. And that just tells you that there's a standard that I think you can reach that the Bengals haven't.

Starting point is 00:31:45 James, any closing thoughts here before we wrap up a tumultuous, an exciting, maybe tumultuous for some people. An interesting Friday here of Duke Tobin talking. All eyes on you. All eyes on Duke. You equals the Bengals organization. Duke, Katie, Troy, Mike, all eyes on you. And it's not just us.

Starting point is 00:32:06 Joe's watching as well. Yeah. That's going to do it for this episode of the Lockdown Bengals podcast. As I mentioned earlier, we'll be back on Monday in the afternoon and the evening with your next episode of the podcast. Until then, thanks for listening. Hoor Day. Have a good one.

Locked On Bengals - Daily Podcast On The Cincinnati Bengals - Breaking Down Duke Tobin's Presser: Bengals’ Frustrations, Offseason Needs & Urgent Changes Ahead

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