Locked On Bengals - Daily Podcast On The Cincinnati Bengals - BUYING Shemar Stewart Stock: Why There's Major BELIEF in Bengals First Round Pick

Starting point is 00:00:00 The NFL world is split on Bengals' first round pick, Shemar Stewart. Will he be a star? Will he be a bust? Let's chat with two people on today's show that are all in on Shemar Stewart. You are locked on Bengals, your daily Cincinnati Bengals podcast. Part of the Locked on Podcast Network, your team every day. Hi again, everyone, and welcome in to the Lockdown Bengals podcast. I'm James Irpene.

Starting point is 00:00:31 You're about to hear two awesome interviews. and they have everything to do with Bengals' first round pick, Shamar Stewart. Thank you so much for making us your first listen and a quick reminder to subscribe on YouTube, follow wherever you get your podcast. And shout out to the everydayers. All of the Bengals fans that listen to us every single day or watch us every single day, we certainly appreciate you.

Starting point is 00:00:54 And it's funny. Yesterday you had Jake Liscoe and Mike Renner. Today, you're going to have an interview that Jake did and then an interview that I did. I promise me and Jake will be back together in the near future. But first, before we get to my one-on-one interview with Chris Sims, let's get to an interview Jake did last week with Justice Mosqueda of Acme Packing Company. And before the draft, Justice was all in on Shamar Stewart. The Bengals take Shamar Stewart with the 17th overall pick. And so this is a really good conversation that's going to pull back the curtain and give you an idea of what the Bengals and what plenty of other teams across the NFL

Starting point is 00:01:32 see with Shamar Stewart. So let's get to Jake's interview with Justice. We're going to chat with Justice about what he saw from Shemar Stewart on tape, a great write-up over at Acme Packing Company, where he writes about things from a Green Bay Packers perspective. And there's a few reasons that perspective is interesting to me, Justice. One of them is that the former defensive line coach from Green Bay, Jerry Montgomery, is now coaching the defensive line in Cincinnati.

Starting point is 00:01:58 And a player that I have compared these athletic-toolsy line, linemen that the Bengals have drafted in recent years is Rishon Garrett. And we'll talk about those worlds of outcomes. But you tweeted on January 18th that when you finished watching Samar Stewart, you weren't sure why we weren't talking about him as a top five pick at the time. What were you thinking about when you were like, yeah, this guy's awesome. Why aren't we talking about him in that early part of the draft? I guess the most important thing to start with from my perspective is like my role.

Starting point is 00:02:31 world view on the position. I do believe edge rusher is the most athletically demanding position in terms of the top tier guys. Usually you look at top guys in terms of sacks over, you know, a three-year basis, right? Sometimes you get a Vic Beasley who puts up 15 sacks or whatever and then he doesn't do anything else, right? But if you're looking over, you know, the long-term, these guys are usually guys who are running 4-6, 4-7 in the 40 and have, you know, a three-cone somewhere around seven seconds. And that holds true whether you're Trey Hendrickson in the mid-rounds, right? Or Danil Hunter in the mid-rounds or you're a higher draft pick.

Starting point is 00:03:22 And I know Shamar Stewart didn't run the three-cone and you get a whole lot of that anytime you tweet like, Jamar Stewart, one of the most athletic guys that we've seen at the position, people will hit you with. Well, he didn't run the agility. Well, I've seen him bend on film at 280 or whatever he was listed at Texas A&M before he ended up dropping some way for the combine and stuff like that. I think that defense in general was focused on stopping the run. You could look at a lot of play action passes and stuff like that and notice that. Um, they saw a whole lot of quick game. They saw a whole lot of RPO.

Starting point is 00:04:05 Um, a lot of run game, obviously. There's not that like it's, it's weird, man. You look at the SEC, there's not a whole lot of teams that are just playing four down fronts telling their, their defensive linemen to pin their ears back and get after the quarterback. Um, you can look at Georgia, right? Mikel Williams and, uh, Trayvon Walker, we're both playing four I, right? They're basically playing three technique, you know, an undertackle in those schemes. And they're nowhere near the size to do that at the next level.

Starting point is 00:04:37 These teams are really trying to stop the run first. I use Tennessee as an example, but they're not the only one, right? There's teams like Ole Miss, all this stuff who do the same. And Tennessee, they're running 100 true drawbacks in a season. and, you know, that's excluding screens, RPO's, you know, all that stuff, play action shots. Shemar Stewart's, you know, run defense grades, if you look at pro football focus and stuff, you know, gone up significantly year by year. I think we're at this point. I know Michael Williams kind of got this branding, but I think Shamar Stewart should probably get it too where it's, you know, he's a high-end run defender at this point.

Starting point is 00:05:22 And, you know, he's got all the traits and stuff like that. I think as a pass-fresher, his get-off elite, right? Like, he's blowing up plays off of his feet alone at times. And I do think, you know, particularly in like the Arkansas film and stuff like that, when you see him get more of these pass-rushing opportunities. And, you know, clearly thinking pass-first, he does show the bend and things like that. You got to remember Nick Skirton, we just saw him, you know, fall into day two of the draft. he was a guy who had top five pick hype coming into the season as one of the biggest

Starting point is 00:05:59 you know transfer portal guys going into college football in 2024 i think he had like five sacks too right so it's like this whole a and m defensive line i think they got what three ed rushes drafted and then the second shamar at defensive tackle who went in and they had like no pass rush production so the nfo clearly thinks that they could have gotten more out of their pass rush. It's just kind of not what Mike Elko's crew was doing there. So you have this combination of what college defenses are focusing on and how college offenses are playing football.

Starting point is 00:06:37 This also extends to certain positions that don't really exist in the NFL, in the secondary that you see in college, but certainly the third safety, the outside line, The pass rushing outside linebacker playing in the slot, your edge defender playing basically a defensive tackle position. It gets real funky, man. The RPL rules, the wide hashes, you know, the limitations on the type of athletes that you get. It changes the math on this stuff very quickly.

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Starting point is 00:08:28 When that bet wins, you'll get $200 in bonus bets only at fandle.com. So when you're looking at that, and Green Bay has this history of drafting crazy athletic players. Like that's Green Bay's M.O. in the draft, right? And so from your perspective, you've seen two sides of this with a Sean Gary and more recently, Lucas Van Ness. And you've seen different coaches get different levels. of competency out of these players when they get to the NFL. And so from a Bengals perspective, Jerry Montgomery, now the defensive line coach in Cincinnati,

Starting point is 00:09:05 but based on what you've written, Montgomery wasn't necessarily the guy credited with Rishon Gary's development in Green Bay. You credit Mike Smith for that. And so, DeMarcus Covington, a former coworker to Jerry Montgomery in New England, going to Green Bay, where do you see? Jerry Montgomery's role here or ability to develop edge rushers based on what you saw from him in Green Bay. Yeah, it's really interesting.

Starting point is 00:09:34 So Montgomery came to the Packers from the college level. He first got to start under Dom Capers. But what he's best known as is kind of like the 3-4 defensive line coach, right? Like he's coaching the 3-4 ends, nose tackles in Green Bay. And what they did under Joe Barry was a lot different than. you know, what's being asked at these guys now, where, you know, they were a very quarter, it's almost like college football, right? They were a quarters-based system.

Starting point is 00:10:06 They really wanted the line of scrimmage to hold the point of attack, slow down things so that, you know, they're playing too high safety so that the safeties can get into the run fit. You're really slowing down kind of the run fit so that the linebackers can fit in so that the the safeties can fit in. And now the Packers are in a situation where they just want to, you know, do the thing that I think most people want defensive linemen to do, which is kind of pin their ears back and get a whole bunch of production and stuff. They got a lot of production when Mike Smith was the coach, because you got, you know,

Starting point is 00:10:41 Roshan Gary turned in from this, you know, raw ball of clay into a guy who's making Pro Bowls, right? And then Zadaria Smith, a guy who is a situational pass rusher, for the Ravens who, you know, if you look back at the time, people are like, why did they give Zadaria Smith so much money? That was kind of the instant analysis of that free agency was just like, wow, they gave, you know, however much it was, $15 million per year, whatever it was for a situational pass rush. And he ends up being, you know, a legitimate candidate for defensive player of the year. We saw that drop off with Brebevich.

Starting point is 00:11:21 Forever Rich really didn't end up developing anyone. So as far as Jeremy Montgomery goes, I don't really know. Because I haven't really seen him in charge of edges before, right? I mean, he was really an interior defensive lineman coach for the Packers. And he inherited Kenny Clark, but the team outside of that didn't have much on the defensive interior. But they also didn't spend much. in terms of at like outside of devonte wyatt um it's you know he was starting guys like um

Starting point is 00:11:58 you know kiki kinsley and you know dean lowry and stuff like that it's not like the packers were we're pumping in high draft pick so i don't really know that you've got a huge look at um what he looks like as a developer of talent it'll be interesting to track i will say kind of get used to it, man. I know people don't want to look at developmental guys, right? They want guys who can hit the ground run and especially with the rookie contract stuff, all that. If you look at kind of how the NFL is working right now, one, the pipeline coming in, I don't think college players have ever been more raw. And that's with them changing multiple schemes, getting chances with multiple teams, multiple playbooks, all that stuff, different coaches in their ears, all that.

Starting point is 00:12:56 And then on the other end, I kind of think the NFL salary cap going up $25 million a year and everyone just like eyeball in 2029 and expecting this even bigger jump in terms of the salary cap has influenced free agency and what players are available. stuff. I think what you get out of Ricky contracts, or at least early on in Ricky contracts is going to matter less because everyone's going to be able to retain their own players. So really what matters is kind of like the upside and what you can develop these guys into. And I think a lot of these teams who are, I mean, we saw it with a defensive tackle run on day two. We saw it with the cornerback run on day two where teams are just like, well, we just need

Starting point is 00:13:46 someone to play this year. I think a lot of those teams are going to end up regretting that down the line because I don't think that's what the job is anymore is just like finding warm bodies on rookie contracts. I think it really is about, you know, draft and develop and puts a whole lot more stress on coaches. I fully believe that. And, you know, if you don't make a good decision on a positional coach, it might hurt you a lot more in today's NFL than it has in the past. I'm hearing a few themes there that are very relevant to the Bengals. A lot on the coaches plate. I feel like Al Golden coming in as a new defensive coordinator has a ton of pressure with a little change defense outside of the draft picks this year, two linebackers and of course, Shamar Stewart.

Starting point is 00:14:30 And then some changes of positional coaches, changed an offensive line coach. The other theme that is relevant to me as someone who covers the Bengals is the everyone will be able to keep their players comment with the difficulty the Bengals have had. in that department. But let's close with my last question for you is essentially, if you were thinking about Charmar Stewart's development and how to get the most out of him at the NFL level, with the ability to show that explosive athleticism linearly,

Starting point is 00:15:03 you think that you've seen on tape an ability to bend the corner. The criticism that I've heard is maybe the game needs to slow down for him a little bit, needs to be more aware of where the ball is. And in addition to that, maybe develop some pass rush moves. If you were putting together a development plan, Mr. Mar Stewart, with points of emphasis, what would your plan be for that kind of player coming into the league? Yeah, past rush moves.

Starting point is 00:15:26 I've seen that edge bend. We're training the hell out of the edge bend. And, you know, because I don't worry about any sort of length that he has in the run game, stack and shed stuff. You know, we've seen him down at, you know, the 250s now, or 260s. I can't remember what he weighed in at the combine. We've seen him a little bit bigger, you know, on film at A&M. I'm not, I'm not worried about the body type. I'm not worried about the length. I'm not worried about his ability to, you know, play on the edge or anything like that.

Starting point is 00:15:59 My worry is like lean into what you do well as a pass rusher and then figure out a counter move. I mean, it really is as simple as that. I would just be focusing in on the pass rush. And by all counts good kid um young kid right i think he's only like 21 22 something around there um it is three years the a and um you know he's not one of these knucklehead dudes um that you might hear about like some of like the walter nolan stuff right where like ESPN reported like you know half the time he's walking out on practice mid practice and things like that you're you're not going to run into that issue so hopefully just you know getting him to hone his craft and realizing kind of like what the upside is there.

Starting point is 00:16:44 I'm sure, you know, having a guy like Hendrickson in the room will certainly help. I do see there's a lot of parallels between the Packers and Bengals. It's kind of funny. Oh, yeah. Because one, we're like the only teams that like look at four-year contracts, right? Everyone in the NFL wants three-year contracts. We want four-year contracts. We're kind of in a draft and develop type of mold as a franchise, all that stuff.

Starting point is 00:17:12 the other thing is we're both coming off of uh not great returns on a first round pass rusher early on right you guys you guys with miles murphy us with lucas van ness and it's it's funny talking to fans and just seeing uh because a lot of packers fans disagreed with me and did not want shmar stewart right because it's just a whole we just got lucy's van ness we want lucy's van ness we want the opposite of Lucas Van Ness. Let's go get Donovan as a Rocco. He's, you know, he played under Jeff Haffley, all this stuff.

Starting point is 00:17:49 Let's get him in the ground run and get production immediately. But just remember, like, just because you didn't, one of these guys didn't pan out, doesn't mean that another one won't. And that's no reason to change your entire scouting process, right? Like the Packers turn that pick in for Rishongeri every single time. And just because Lucas Van Ness didn't work out or, you know, Miles Murphy. it didn't work out. That doesn't mean that you don't do it again. And there's still time for those guys, right? They're still young enough players that they can turn

Starting point is 00:18:20 a corner. I do wonder what the difference is. But yeah, when you see guys that are as athletic as Samar Stewart in specific, you go look at like the RAS guys that are, what was it cutoff, like 9.8, 9.9 or better and a certain weight, which I think was 256, those guys all turn into more or less productive NFL players. And the track record there is really good. There's a certain point where, you know, NFL GMs even, the athletic, I think, put up a piece today where they had executives talking about other teams' drafts.

Starting point is 00:18:56 And even at that level, they're talking about Shamar Stewart is this boomer, boomer bus prospect, which is to some degree, I think, true. But there's a certain point where athletic tools give you a floor. And that was another thing to be talking about with Amarius Mims last year, too. Like there's a certain point where you're built a certain way. And as long as you have your head on straight and you're trying hard, which we expect Samar Stewart to do, it's going to give you a floor that it should be a productive NFL player because you're that rare athletically and from a physical build perspective, right?

Starting point is 00:19:28 Yeah, 100%. And if this makes you guys feel any better, I was told, you know, Green Bay and Seattle were having talks potentially. Seattle holds the pick right after you guys. And the apple of my eye was always Shemar. And I've done this long enough that I, you get feelings about what guys that the Packers would like. And I think the guy that they were eyeing at 18 was probably Shamar, the guy that they brought in on a pre-draft visit.

Starting point is 00:20:01 And then once Shemar was off the board, I think trade talks were off the board. And they were just sitting pat, Matthew Golden, fell to him. And they just took them. but I do think that there would at least been conversations if he had fallen one more draft pick. The unpredictable nature of the draft. Appreciate it, Justice.

Starting point is 00:20:21 You can find his work in a great pre-draft scouting report on Shemar Stewart over at Acmepackingcom. Justice, appreciate the time and your perspective on Shemar Stewart. Yeah, man, whenever you need me. Really good stuff there with Jake and Justice Muscatta. Again, shout out the justice for coming on and spending some time with Jake and really good stuff on Shmar Stewart. The good news is we have more good stuff on Shemar Stewart and Al Golden. Chris Sims of NBC Sports, you'll hear and see my conversation with him coming up next. Say goodbye to sticky notes, scribbled plans on the fridge, and overlapping calendar invites.

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Starting point is 00:22:08 because I know that there are a lot of people that listen and watch Locked on Bengals. that might not necessarily pay attention to Cincinnati Bengals talk that in this entire conversation is over there. But this is the the really meat of the conversation about Shamar Stewart. And I led things off by just simply asking Chris Sims, who had him, Shamar Stewart as his second ranked edge rusher going into the draft, what stood out when he watched him and popped on the film before the draft? Well, I think the first off is just he is a physical freak, right?

Starting point is 00:22:37 And I look at him and go, this is one of the safest picks in the draft. That's the one thing I love. Let's just start there. Doesn't matter who he plays against, what team the Bengals are playing. You're not going to have to worry about Chamor Stewart going, oh, man, we might get overpowered this week, or we got a real mismatch issue. I mean, his floor is like, oh, he's our starting defense end for the next five or six years, and he's a good player. So I like that aspect, let alone his ceiling is as high as anybody in the draft. He could be a superstar.

Starting point is 00:23:07 He could be Miles Garrett. He could be one of the best past wrestlers in football. So that's what I love about him. And too, what he did at Texas A&M, and this is where I know we're all about the, oh, he only got one and a half sacks and all that.

Starting point is 00:23:22 And I think you've seen some of the things I've said. Disruption is production, right? Well, I have a thing that I call on my podcast, F the playup. There's too many plays or too many great players in football who ruined the design of the play and somebody gets the tackle and I want to go, okay, great. He made

Starting point is 00:23:38 tackle the star of the play is the guy who ruined everything and sometimes that gets lost in translation a little bit with the fans because we're stat line readers where we just look at the bottom line and go oh he had a sack or he had a tackle he must be really good no and so there is value in that and i see him disrupt a ton of plays so i love that i love the physical ability i love the size he's never going to have an issue with anybody there and then i also love the untapped potential. That's what's there too. He's raw. He doesn't have any pass rush moves. He's going to learn that in a hurry in the NFL and go, damn, if I knew this in college, I would have got seven sacks last year. And that's what I love about it too. So I think it's a very good pick by the Cincinnati Bengals. And I think it's getting a little too much a negative reaction, in my opinion. Yeah, I think that the safe part is is so interesting because on draft night, almost everyone was like, well, this is a big role of the dice. This is a big game. gamble. But to your point, he has a high floor because he's a smart kid. He's going to work hard. I met him already and chat. Exactly right. Right. And all the physical traits. I mean,

Starting point is 00:24:48 what, what's the worst that could happen that he's a productive starter for a decade? Yeah, exactly. That's where you look at it. And here is a team that we know in Cincinnati that needs someone that can start and play right away in a division where there's some big offense alignment and people that move people around. And you got, I know, a quarterback in that division who can really run and move as far as Lamar Jackson's concerned. So you got to worry about him and have a plan for that. So yeah, I love all of that stuff. And then I think on top of that too, we talked about a little bit of the rawness and all that. The game is going to be simpler for him in the NFL. And that's where I think people miss it too. A little bit like Will Anderson a few years ago when he

Starting point is 00:25:31 came out of Alabama, I was a little like, wait, I don't love this tape. All right. And I think the thing where I messed up in evaluating him and where I took that into account this time with Shamar Stewart is the fact of he had to do things and was asked to do things at Texas A&M that Al Golden and the Bengals are not going to ask him to do. He was asked sometimes the lineup head up on the tackle and two gap, sometimes just barely get on the edge. He played nose tackle because he was such a freak of nature and they went, wait, he can do it. And this will let us get some other good guys on the field that can't do that, but we can move them outside. So he had the ability to do that. But now the life is going to be simplified in the fact of,

Starting point is 00:26:14 hey, just line up outside, get wide. And we're not asking you to do a whole lot here other than pin your ears back and just go this way after the quarterback. And I think with that simplification of how he plays and what he does, yeah, I think the NFL is made for a guy like this. And let me just throw one other thing to you as far as my experience here, right, with these type of situations. With these guys a lot of times, right, James, they're raw. They've been physically dominant their whole life. They haven't needed to push the boundaries of that physicality and some of the things they do. And they get to the NFL a bunch of round at alpha males who were crazy about their job, crazy about being good. The de-coordinator,

Starting point is 00:27:02 the defense line coach for the first time in his life are like, we want more, you think you, we think you have more, that's not good enough. And he's going to look around the league and hopefully Trey Hendrickson's there. And he's going to go, wait, if I do what he does, I can get $30 million a year. Oh, oh, okay. And I've made that mistake of not projecting some of that growth

Starting point is 00:27:25 that we see these alpha freak of nature guys go to that next level once they get in this environment. And I just feel like back to your point with he's a good guy. He's a worker. He likes football. Those are signs to me that show, hey, when he gets in this environment, he'll only thrive in the NFL. Yeah. Oh, man.

Starting point is 00:27:45 There's so much there. I think the F the play up part of it is so interesting to me because the Bengals clearly didn't have that last year. They had one guy that could have to play up. Exactly. The fourth and 16 against the Chiefs. And if it wasn't Trey Hendrickson, it was nobody. Right.

Starting point is 00:28:00 and it costs them. And I could list a bunch of different games. I think right away he can help out in that department alongside Trey. Obviously, you hope that Trey's back because he's an awesome pass rusher. But on the other side, if you got a guy like that, that's just doing a bunch of one-on-ones, he wasn't getting, you watch more than I did. But I'm almost positive. Shamar Stewart wasn't seeing a bunch of one-on-ones in college. He definitely was. That's all you have to take into account, too, and the context clues. One, the context clues are he did things. he didn't, he's not going to get asked to do in the NFL. Other things that are context clues and big time passing situations,

Starting point is 00:28:37 I don't know for the guy that only had one and a half sack, I sir saw a lot of people going over there to block him. It wasn't like the other team was like, well, just leave him there. He's only got one and a half sack. Let's put the running back on him or are below average tackle on him. No, you saw it a lot of big situations. They were like, oh, he got doubled. Oh, they put the tight end over there.

Starting point is 00:28:56 Oh, they put the back over there with the tackle to get, get them and chip them and give them issues that way. So I think within that too, you're being told by the SEC going, well, they were a little scared about them with the matchup on a week-to-week basis and in obvious passing situations. He's the disruption, the power. I thought his speed to power was the best in the draft. And it's really one of the only moves he has and he still was able to be successful with that over and over.

Starting point is 00:29:25 So there's so much there. I think he's made from the NFL, and I think a guy like Al Golden will know how to get the absolute most out of this guy right here. It's music to Bengals fans' ears, for sure, especially ones that were worried about the pick. There was someone on the elevator at Paycor Stadium on Draft Night that said to me, anyone but Shamar.

Starting point is 00:29:45 So that's where the fan base was before the pick. Hopefully this helps them out, gives them a little piece of mind. Hopefully it does. Last thing for you, Chris, and I appreciate the time. From Shamar Stewart to Demetrius Knight to Al Gold. the things that they did in free agency, getting a nose tackle. How do you feel about this Bengals defense going into year one with Al? Well, I love Al.

Starting point is 00:30:07 I'm a huge fan of Al, his creativity, some of the things he does on the defensive side of the ball. I do think you're a team that's going to play a whole lot more man to man maybe than you did with Luan Arumo. But still within that, it's going to be game plan specific. It's going to be creative. And hey, the big question I do think is, yeah, we got some unproven commons. oddities in the secondary, but I still look at the secondary and go, man, there's a lot of talent there.

Starting point is 00:30:32 I know there's some guys that we need to take the next step or Dax Hill might move a position, but I still look at the talent and the physical ability and go, man, I like a lot of these guys. I really do. The big thing with them, the Bengals, is just the D-line. The D-line. And we try Hendrickson, the D-Tackle play. Is that going to be up to par? Because that was an issue last year.

Starting point is 00:30:53 And we know that. When DJ Reader left town, it was like, uh-oh, who's in a situation? stop the run. We're playing the Ravens and that big old line twice a year and their run game. We're going to have to deal with that. So I've liked the adjustments to this point. And I think Al Golden will cover some of the other holes that need to be need to be covered as we go forward here. Really good stuff there from Chris Sim. Shout out to him. Shout out the Justice Muscatah. Shout out to you for watching, supporting, sticking with us, listening. Because I get it. This, we're entering offseason mode.

Starting point is 00:31:23 But the Bengals are in the building. And from Tuesday, where there's open media availability to rookie mini camp on Friday. We're going to have you covered every single day. So make sure that you hit that subscribe button on YouTube, follow wherever you get your podcast. And by the way, do this. I don't ask this a lot. We don't ask this a lot.

Starting point is 00:31:43 Leave us a five-star review on Apple or Spotify or wherever you're listening. It helps offset some of the silliness that people go out there if they don't like our opinion or something. But if you're an everyday air and you haven't left us a five-star review, please do so. but that's going to do it for today's show for jake let's go i'm james rpeen thank you so much for watching and listening to the locked on bengals podcast

Locked On Bengals - Daily Podcast On The Cincinnati Bengals - BUYING Shemar Stewart Stock: Why There's Major BELIEF in Bengals First Round Pick

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