Locked On Bengals - Daily Podcast On The Cincinnati Bengals - CHAMPIONSHIP CHECKLIST: Burrow, Chase, Higgins LEAD—Defense Must RISE to Contend

Starting point is 00:00:00 Daniel Jeremiah laid out a 12-point plan to build a championship team in the NFL, and the Bengals check a lot of those boxes, but they'll need some help and development on the defensive side of the ball. You are Locked-on Bengals, your daily Cincinnati Bengals podcast. Part of the Locked-on Podcast Network, your team every day. What up, Bengals fans, and welcome to another episode of the Locked-on Bengals podcast. He's Joe Goodberry. I'm Jake Lisco. We are your host of the Locked-on.

Starting point is 00:00:35 on Bengals podcast covering your Cincinnati Bengals every day. And today we're getting into championship talk. That has been the theme of the week as the Bengals open OTAs and the wide receivers are talking championships. Joe Burrow obviously talked championships a couple of weeks ago when he met with the media. And one of the ways you can evaluate whether a team has a championship caliber roster is just take a look at Daniel Jeremiah's steps to becoming a championship contender. He has a championship foundation criteria list that includes 12 positions that need to be filled.

Starting point is 00:01:11 And Daniel Jeremiah, obviously, a long-term player personnel staffer in the NFL who now works for NFL.com, a respected scout in the industry. If you're wondering why we care about what Daniel Jeremiah has to say, wondering who Daniel Jeremiah is, you're not up on the latest from NFL.com and all those things. Well, we generally respect a lot of DJ's takes. And this one, I think, is pretty interesting. The Bengals check a lot of these boxes on offense, which is why we're going to save that part of the conversation until a little bit later in the show, because maybe the offense can overcome the questions

Starting point is 00:01:47 that we have about the Bengals on defense. But when you take a look at that criteria, and Joe's about to break it down for you, the questions for the Bengals will be who will emerge into some of these roles on the defensive side of the ball. Yeah, so starting from the top of the table. the list. We'll break down what he says you need. Number one, you need a franchise quarterback. You need three offensive playmakers. You need three quality offensive linemen out of your five.

Starting point is 00:02:11 I think that'll be a fun discussion towards the second half of the show. But the part we're going to really focus on here is, he says you need two pass rushers. He doesn't say what that really means, though. So I've listened to him in past seasons, and he said, like, good pass rushers. You know, he said quality and other times. So we're just going to say, like, you need two impact pass rushers and then three defensive playmakers. And I think that's the bulk of our discussion here because number one, let's just start with pass rushing and start on the defensive line. It's been a big discussion this off season.

Starting point is 00:02:41 The Bengals made a lot of moves at that side of the trenches. Clearly, Dexter Lawrence being one of them and being one of the best players in the league, especially at nose tackle and a pass rusher at that position, the question really comes, can one of these other guys, and I think they have a complimentary set of pass rushers. They could be eight deep on the defensive line. But will one of those emerge as a go-to pass rusher, as a quality pass rusher, someone that can win on those third downs? It's probably helpful that Lawrence is going to receive so much attention in the middle. And we've talked about that on previous episodes. But can Boyer Mafé take one more small step in his game? I think he would

Starting point is 00:03:22 qualify. He'd probably be the next one. And then when you spent your top pick on Cash's Howell as like a defensive pass brush specialist, does he have that chance as a rookie to hit that mark? Yeah, I wonder how much production the Bengals get out of Cassius Howl's house of rookie. We've mostly seen clips of him dropping into coverage, discussion about him playing more of that overhang role, the Viper role maybe a little bit in Al Golden's defense

Starting point is 00:03:48 where we got sick of seeing the Bengals dropping their best pass rushes into coverage last year. And we might get sick of seeing Cassius Howell drop into coverage a little bit this year. although there is a clip. One of the first plays that I saw when I was watching Cassius Halt tape after the Bengals drafted him was him carrying a wheel peeling and carrying a wheel route

Starting point is 00:04:06 and being in great position to make that play really difficult for the running back and it ends up being a pass. So it's not like he's totally estranged from or four and two the concept of playing in that role and he has the athletic toolkit to do it, but he also is one of the more accomplished pass rushers in terms of at least what he did in college on the team.

Starting point is 00:04:29 And so a lot of times when we're talking about players and how they translate to the NFL, it's they're going to be who they were in college. And they might be it to a slightly lesser or slightly different degree, slightly greater degree. Sometimes you see a little bit of development there. And sometimes guys come out of nowhere. It's not like that's unheard of.

Starting point is 00:04:46 But those are the exceptions, not the rule. The rule is you're generally going to be a version of yourself that you were in college. And so when you're looking for that second piece, if we're calling Dexter Lawrence, one of the pass rushers, right? More of a pocket compressor than a guy who will necessarily fill up with 12 sacks himself. That would be incredible. Jonathan Allen, I think, will be a very useful designated pass rusher for this team

Starting point is 00:05:09 that they haven't had since Larry Ogunjobie in terms of his skill set as a pure pass rusher. And I think he's more than a pure pass rusher. But from what you've observed around the players that the Bengals have on the team, Joe, what's your opinion about where the most likely pass rush juice will come from for the team? And to what degree do you think that juice will arise? You know, I still look at Miles Murphy and wonder if that fourth year, if he continues to progress, it's been small increments and then a bigger step last year. If he takes one more step in that direction, there's no reason why he couldn't be on a

Starting point is 00:05:46 boy A-Mafé type level, which if he's right at the line, and I'm not sure if I want to qualify Mafei as that. There are moments and times where I thought Mafay was great for the Seahawks. But then, I mean, we're talking about a guy who had two sacks last year. Same with Jonathan Allen. Like, these are the guys we're expecting to hopefully pick up the slack and get six, seven, eight sacks.

Starting point is 00:06:06 If one of them can, they would probably qualify. Murphy, maybe the next guy that you would pin and say, he has the potential to do it. We've seen some flashes. We've seen progress. Can he take that step? And I think the wild card after that is Shamar Stewart because you drafted him 17th overall.

Starting point is 00:06:22 he is very raw but has all the tools you're looking for in terms of height, weight speed. And honestly, he plays like he'll run through your face similar to, you know, Eric, all on the offensive side. Shamar will do that and worry about the play afterwards. Maybe it's because he doesn't know where the ball is all the time. But that can be a useful asset on the defensive line. I tend to say, like, this is maybe a little bit overrated saying I need two of them. I like the idea of the Bengals having eight guys that can help on the defensive line.

Starting point is 00:06:50 I think if the pass rush is going to be good in 2026, it's because they're deploying waves. And these guys are fresh throughout the game and still look good in the fourth quarter where they can close with a new set of pass rushers. I kind of think of what's that nickel package going to look like, right? And what's that nickel package going to look like in the fourth quarter when you need a pass rush on the opposing quarterback? Is it Cassius Howell, boy, Mafei. Do you find a way to get Murphy in there as well? Maybe kick Murphy inside. Do you find a way to get Shamar in there and kick him inside?

Starting point is 00:07:19 And then what do you do with Dexter Lawrence and Jonathan Allen? I like that you have so many options. Yeah, there are a lot of options. But I would say that when the Bengals had success in this Joe Burrow era, they had a closer. And that was Trey Hendrickson. Trey Hendrickson's proclivity for closing games is something that I think will be missed and needs to be replaced. And so well, one of these guys emerged as a closer. Maybe it is all of them.

Starting point is 00:07:43 Maybe it's just a closer by committee thing. And one week you got BJ Hill making a play to win the game. One week you got Jonathan Allen making a play to win the game. One week he got these edge rushers that we're talking about, Cassius, Hal Miles Murphy, Boyer, Mafei, taking turns, making plays. And that's where you need the front to come together. But that's not all for the defensive side of the ball. And I think that we'll have to see how these guys come along.

Starting point is 00:08:08 As a lot of the defensive players, especially, Mafei and Murphy both stand out for hitting this criteria to me, Joe. is they will be asked to be winners a little bit more often. They'll be asked to be the Trey Hendrickson role, not that level of play or anything like that, but Trey a lot of the times is a guy that's like, you're going to have to go win on this way. We're going to have contain rushers on the other side.

Starting point is 00:08:35 We're going to try to flush the quarterback in your direction, not let him escape elsewhere. You need to win your matchup. And in the past, Miles Murphy was in that contain role a little bit more. He got to be more of a, okay, this is your, job to go win this play. You started to see the past rush win rate improve a little bit for Miles Murphy. And so these guys in those roles where they're going to have to be winners a little bit more will be a bit of a difference for them. And I want to get your thoughts there, Joe, before we talk about

Starting point is 00:09:02 the defensive playmakers because to me, there's one very clear playmaker on this Bengals defense that is not in the front four. And beyond that, I think we start to have some questions. So we'll wrap up the conversation on defense, we've got to talk about whether this offense can carry this team the way we think it has the potential to. We'll get into those topics coming up next. Support for today's episode of Lockdown Bengals is from Square, the business platform that helps sellers become neighborhood favorites. Whether you're gearing up for a busy season or just trying to keep up with everyday demand as a small business owner, Square will keep your business running smoothly from payments to online orders, inventory, staff, and more, it's all in one

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Starting point is 00:10:26 Square and build a setup that works the way you do. So we've got two past rushers potentially. That discussion is a, you know, who steps up into that role. And I like that you ended that with putting these guys in the Trey Hendrickson role to make them the playmaker, right, on the defensive side. I think we need to separate. And I think Daniel Jeremiah, does separate the playmakers from the pass rusher. So we can't use Dexter Lawrence again. We're talking about playmakers. While he is and, you know, a very good player,

Starting point is 00:10:57 I think this is saying, you need five of your 11 plus guys that rotate in to be impact players. So do the Bengals have three playmakers on the defensive side? I'm with you. I think you're saying DJ Turner is one of them where he, I mean, I think he had 15 passes defense. Some had him at 17, getting your hands on the ball at ton, being a guy that can travel with number one receivers, change game plans because of it. We saw him get into the slot, go out wide, handle bigger receivers, smaller receivers.

Starting point is 00:11:25 I think he's probably still a guy that you worry about his size at times. But when he gets that interceptions against, D.K. Mechav, who's one of the biggest, most physical receivers in the league, you kind of don't worry about it. You'll take your lumps with DJ Turner if he's so good at other parts of his game. Yeah, DJ Turner's kind of the bizarro world, Mike Hilton, where both guys were undersized with Mike Hilton is like an undersized linebacker playing corner. and DJ Turner is just an undersized corner who's still really good in coverage but doesn't make the

Starting point is 00:11:51 the run game plays. He's a past game playmaker getting his hand on the football. Mike Hilton was previously a playmaker for this defense in a very, very different role even though they played the same position there in the same positional meeting room, right? And so when you get beyond DJ Turner and all of the ball production that he had

Starting point is 00:12:07 last year, getting his hands on a ton of passes four interceptions, or sorry, two interceptions to go along with those past breakups, then it's, okay, where's the rest coming from? And Dax Hill certainly, I think, flashed that ability down the stretch last year and you can make an argument that it will be him. The Bengals made a big, big cash payout to bring in Brian Cook. And I think some people out there thinking, well, yeah, of course, Brian Cook is going to be the next

Starting point is 00:12:35 guy. I think that there are different kinds of safeties. And that's where it's interesting. And there are the solid, consistent safeties. And there are. And there are. are the guys that will create turnovers and will force defenses to change the way they're approaching them. Ed Reed, Troy Palomalu, obviously in classes of their own in the AFC North, but those guys warped defenses. Now Kyle Hamilton does that to some degree for the Ravens. Nickyman worries on his way to doing that for a very, very good and deep Seattle defense. So it might be a little bit harder to make the argument that it's him individually. But that takes us to the question of, well, Dax step up and be that consistent playmaker?

Starting point is 00:13:18 And will they just have two corners? You have two corners that are your playmakers? Awesome. I don't think anyone's expecting it to be at the linebacker level. So it needs to be from this secondary. And I don't think anyone's expecting you to come from the slot this year either. So it's really, can Dax Hill and Brian Cook make enough plays? Can Jordan Battle make enough plays?

Starting point is 00:13:37 Can the linebackers where they're not going to be playmakers? But as we were discussing earlier this week, can they be inconsistent in a way that is we're getting high outside plays in addition to the inconsistent plays. So they're sprinkling in their playmaking. Well, sometimes there are some gaffs along the way. And I don't want to write off linebacker right away, right? These guys could develop. They could make plays.

Starting point is 00:14:01 I mean, that is something we are expecting, not just improved play, but hopefully getting their hands on the ball a little bit more often in key situations. That could go a long way to making their defense, that clutch defense the way it was in their championship runs. but it says a lot to say we can eliminate three positions right away of the back six. Like that's not ideal. That's not what you're looking for. The nickels spot between Jalen Davis, Jaseer Taylor, maybe Caldugger gets in there and can make some plays the way you used to back in the day.

Starting point is 00:14:29 But I agree. I think you're looking at hopefully Dax being consistent for a full season, being healthy for a full season, you know, being. I don't know that he, even in the slot, I was last year, I was excited when he was mentioned to go into the slot and start. his season there. And Al Golden never really deployed him the way they did with Mike Hilton. That was my idea in my head was, oh, you've got a bigger, faster, maybe not as psycho, but I'll take the speed and coverage ability a little bit more with Dax Hill. And they just never let him do anything. And it was hard to say if he's a playmaker based on what we've seen so far, he looks like similar Brian Cook, a steady, do your job. You don't have to really worry about

Starting point is 00:15:08 them. And they'll make plays if it comes their way guy, whereas DJ Turner was a pain in the but for offenses, right? That's a little bit different. And in fact, I would even nominate Jordan Battle as more on that side where he's more inconsistent, right? But he gets his hand on the ball much more than Brian Cook does. He is deflected more passes. He has more interceptions, force fumbles. Like, and going into year four, if you could steady him out and just flatline him a little bit on the inconsistencies, he could turn into that next guy that's a playmaker for you. Like, you get his tackling back to what it was as a rookie where he's missing fewer tackles. And you can buying that with what he did last year for interceptions two force fumbles getting his hands on

Starting point is 00:15:47 footballs that then maybe you got something there that is probably if you were looking at last year's team and to me what i think defensive playmaker i'm thinking of essentially how often do you get your hand on the football and it's DJ Jordan battle like this defense generally needs guys who are like go go get peanut tillman in here and and teach a peanut punch which i know is a ridiculous thing to say every team practices forcing the ball out of opposing offensive ball carrier's hands but the bengals last year last summer right yeah and and for the bengals last year the guys that forced more than one fumble where dj turner j jordan battle joseph o's so like where dj turner is very clearly like the past breakups are there the interceptions are there you had two interceptions had two

Starting point is 00:16:32 force fumbles as well and and then the next guys or jordan battle who's still going to have a role this year obviously and Joseph Osai who's no longer with the team the other guys have forced fumbles for the Bengals last year cam sample Jalen Davis or in berks, Trey Hendrickson and uh out of those guys half aren't on the team and jalen Davis is probably going to have the biggest role of those guys and I don't think you're counting on that level of of consistent playmaking from jalen Davis so I do think there is a big question as to where the Bengals playmaking on defense is going to come from And maybe it's just a collective, we've raised the C level. And that's the approach from the Bengals.

Starting point is 00:17:13 And they're not going to check this box, but they're consistent enough because they've got enough quality players there that they achieve the goal that we've been looking for for them, right? Be average on defense. Don't lose games when the offense scores 33 points. Just stop doing that. And then everything's fine. And then you can worry about the bespoke game planning stuff that I've talked about that

Starting point is 00:17:33 Lou Anna Rimo did a great job of. and we still have questions about whether Al Golden can do that in the games that matter. Then we can tackle that question later. But when you strictly look at Daniel Jeremiah's criteria here, Joe, they probably come up a little bit short on the defensive side of the ball. And that's why the premise is that they're going to need guys to step up if they want to check those boxes. Yeah, that's right. And I think if you get the defense, if you raise the ship a little bit,

Starting point is 00:17:57 you talk about raising the tide, right? And if you get everyone to be on a more consistent basis and get them to attack the way they were in the second half of the year, If they're clear on what they're doing, if they can play faster, react faster, and attack downhill a little bit more, some of these guys can make plays at a higher rate. So I'm interested to see that if they can raise the entire level of the defense, if that awakens some players. Well, we have questions on the defensive side of the ball here, and there will be a need for development there. There are plenty of candidates, and we've talked about coin flits on this show a lot, right? We talked about a ton of coin flits last year.

Starting point is 00:18:29 They didn't really go the Bengals way last year. A lot of their bets didn't pan out. there's still a lot of raw talent over there that could be developed on the defensive side of the ball in particular. Some of those coin flips go their way this year because every team is going to have them every year. This isn't a Bengals thing. But you hit some of those coin flips this year. You've answered some of the questions on defense. Meanwhile, on the offensive side of the ball, Joe, I think we feel significantly different, significantly better.

Starting point is 00:18:53 And I wonder how much the quality of what the Bengals have on the offensive side of the ball can overcome if there are still some questions on the defensive side of the ball can overcome if there are still some questions on the. defensive side of the ball. So we'll finally get to the strength of this team. The offense obviously checks a lot of boxes. We'll wrap up the show with the offensive topics of this 12-point personnel requirement to build a championship contender coming up next. All right, Joe, the offensive players are required or a quarterback, not really any discussion needed there except for, well, Joe Burrow might be so good that he mitigates the needs elsewhere on the team. Three offensive playmakers, three qualified. offensive linemen. Some of these are very obvious to me.

Starting point is 00:19:40 Jamar Chase T. Higgins, check, check. Joe Burrow, check. Amarious Mims, check. After that, it could be a little bit interesting, but I think that you can make enough arguments for quality offensive linemen that you do get to three. Who the third offensive playmaker is, I think is a little bit interesting. The very obvious answer is Chase Brown. I wonder if anyone else competes for that spot because there are some guys that could compete for that spot. You would like to have more than three. you'd like to have depth.

Starting point is 00:20:08 When you think about these offensive requirements, Joe, are you aligned? Are there places where you think that there's something more obvious or less obvious than I laid it out? I think Chase Brown is an obvious playmaker number three. This is a guy that has accumulated good numbers for two years in a row now. And not just that, but the efficiency has gotten better. Last year, the Bengals, you know, if you take out that first three weeks,

Starting point is 00:20:32 became one of the most efficient from an EPA perspective, from a success rate. I think they were number two and number three respectively for the rest of the season, which if you're getting that again, and I've got to tell you, I've been watching Eric Gall film and re-cutting up clips and stuff, and if they can add that element back to the offense and the run blocking, if this is a top five running unit again,

Starting point is 00:20:54 and people are going to say that. And every time I've said that on other shows or other appearances, there's always a comment. Top five, what are you talking about? Look at their total number of yards. Guys, it's efficiency. It's making sure you stay ahead of the chains and keep it moving. The Bengals were really good at that last year.

Starting point is 00:21:09 So when you say top five, we're talking rushing success rate. We're talking EPA per play, right? Exactly. And those are important to measure how good your offense is in whatever phase. Because counting numbers don't always tell the story. But if you sort by defensive efficiency or passing efficiency or EPA, you typically get the playoff teams at the top. So it's a good number to use and it's a good thing to look at.

Starting point is 00:21:31 And the Bengals were up there in the running game after those first few weeks. They figured it out. I think Chase Brown is a weapon as a receiver as well. And I think he's a unique player that can do the inside stuff. But also, we haven't seen it as much. But the explosive element is alive with him. I think we may see it a little bit more. If we can just get a little bit better blocking,

Starting point is 00:21:50 I think that's where they are all fullback, H-back type role could really spring him loose. And the second half development that the Bengals found in the running game, the way Scott Peters and James Casey, who's now the run game coordinator for the Bengals, earned that title last year. and Zach Taylor praised his contributions to the running game when he was asked about it, how those guys figured out how to play to the strengths of their offensive line.

Starting point is 00:22:12 And Scott Peters remains a fascinating element in all of this to me. We'll see how things go in year two, but in year one, we were very impressed with the progression of this unit over the course of the year. And one of the examples of this is we get into the offensive line conversation is Dalton Riser, who we expected to be a good pass blocker. and he was. And then he started putting up preposterous rum blocking games in addition to that.

Starting point is 00:22:39 And he's never done that in the NFL. He's never been a plus run blocker in the NFL, but somehow in this scheme, which is not very favorable to run blocking and offensive linemen and not very run blocking friendly, Dalton Riser's clicking. And he and Amarius Mims

Starting point is 00:22:57 beside each other in the second half of the season, especially when Joe Burrow returned, are clicking together. And so when you talk about the Eric All element of this as a more dynamic, tight end, blocking role, H-Mack blocking role with what they seem to have found in the second half in the run game, they can just start the season there and understand what they've got, understand what works for them earlier in the season, which I think we've said more than once when we've talked about Zach Taylor running games over the years. That makes a huge difference for this team in general. and it takes some of the pressure off of Joe Burrow, Jamar Chase, T. Higgins for doing everything because those three guys, quarterback, playmaker, playmaker are so good that they more than fill the requirement for Daniel Jeremiah, right?

Starting point is 00:23:47 And so, like, say you need to get, like, a point system here. If we had assigned points to things like the quarterback's worth 10 points, well, maybe Joe Burroughs worth 12. Your offensive playmakers are worth 10 points each, maybe. Well, Jamar Chase is certainly worth 12. T. Higgins might be worth 11, if not 10, and Chase Brown might be worth nine. So you're getting more than you need there. I wonder if he had done a point system here, how it would play out if he might assign points

Starting point is 00:24:11 on defense and points to overcome it on the offensive side here. I really like that idea. Maybe that's a side project we work on together. And I would nominate Mike Keseki. It's probably only three, four, five games a year. And he was injured a little bit last year, so we missed a little bit of time. But when he is needed and when those games happen, they always come out of the blue for me. Sometimes it's when T. Higgins goes down, but sometimes I just forget that Mike Keseki's there.

Starting point is 00:24:34 He goes two games in a row, three games in a row, just catching a couple passes. And then boom, he has a big moment or big play down the field. And I go, that's right. I'm happy he's on the roster. He's still a mismatch. And I remember after that Bill's game in the snow last year and I live in Buffalo, right? And I come to work the next day. And people are like, I forgot about Mike Keseki.

Starting point is 00:24:51 I'm so worried about Jemar Chasing T. Higgins. Here's this guy dunking on us downfield. I'm like, yeah, you're right. I'm glad to have him. And he could be, if he's number four weapon, That's a pretty good number four. Yeah, and then the depth, I think, is interesting. Not that you need the depth for Daniel Jeremiah's only three playmakers required here,

Starting point is 00:25:09 but where you're talking about the strength of the team, people are still very critical of Andrei Yosevash and whether he controls his drop issue this year, I think is primarily what we're going to be talking about with him, because Andre has been a guy that's been really good out of phase, really good when plays breakdown. He's been productive in the scramble drill with Joe Burrow. So that's kind of how he made his way into a consistent role. He was really good in the scramble drill and was reliable when Joe needed a place to go when the play broke down.

Starting point is 00:25:41 Last year, to me, we don't need to spend a ton of time on Andre here. There was an issue of timing and getting his head around at the right time. It was more of a mental than purely physical thing for some of the drops at least. And hopefully more time in the system, more time with Burrow, more time, with Taylor helps to smooth some of that stuff out. Obviously, a contract year for Yosevash as well that could make a difference in the level of play we see from him this year. But let's get to the offensive line conversation because there are some questions there,

Starting point is 00:26:12 and that's the last element. To me, O'Mari Spims very clearly, quality offensive linemen and ascending. After that, I think that there are arguments to be made for the rest of the four guys for being quality. I think we need to still see it from Dylan Fairchild, so less of an argument there. but we're, I think, both pretty bullish on Fairchild's future of being a quality offensive lineman in the NFL. I think Ted, Ted Karras, is a quality center.

Starting point is 00:26:35 He's not an all-star, but he's a quality player. And then it comes down to Orlando Brown and Dalton Reisner, who I think the NFL and fans see a little bit differently. And I think that's interesting. Yeah, and I'm glad that Daniel Jeremiah uses quality here. He doesn't just say three-o linemen to make you think you need three good ones, because if you look around the league, teams are struggling to find three good offensive linemen.

Starting point is 00:26:56 So can you have three quality and then figure out the other two spots? I think we could come to the end of 2026. If everyone stays healthy and say you have five quality starting offensive linemen. And that's because I'll take on Dylan Fairchild. I think you made a great case for Mims and Reisner already. Fairchild got better throughout the season. And when he missed two games or whatever it was and then came back, it was a steady progression.

Starting point is 00:27:19 I'm doing it for the people on YouTube. A steady progression in how he looked. His film reviews were better and better and better. every week. I was enamored with him by the end. I thought he was a good starting level guard at that point, past quality. So if he can pick up from that again and take off with Scott Peters, I think that is probably your next guy and could fill number three. And I'm bullish on Caras and Orlando Brown. I think both are still quality players by definition. Caras, a good pass protector. And Orlando Brown is still tough to get through because of his size and strength. And he plays

Starting point is 00:27:52 with a level of intensity that I really appreciate. Yes, he's not the most athletic guy, both guys, if they lose a little bit athleticism, could fall below quality. But the last we've seen them, they are still quality. Yeah, I think Ted just wins with that technique and intellect that he brings to the game, that he's just a consistent rock solid player. I'm never worried about Ted Karras. Like, there are matchups that aren't going to be great for him. You put him across from Dexter Lawrence one-on-one.

Starting point is 00:28:19 He's like most centers in the league where it might not go great. But he is generally very aware, very aware of. what's going on. The communication between he and Burrow is fantastic pre-snap. He's a big part of helping them get into the right protections, which are often very complicated, especially the tides of exotic fronts the Bengals get that a lot of other teams in the NFL don't get. Ted does a great job of helping to sort that stuff out with Joe. And I think that that deserves a lot of credit in addition to what he does between the whistles or during the play before. I don't even know what what idiom I'm trying to go to here.

Starting point is 00:28:56 So let's talk Orlando Brown, because Orlando Brown gets a bad rap, I think, from a lot of Bengals fans. And he has some moments where it looks ugly. And those really stand out. And I think that's kind of what it comes down to for him. There's a handful of games last year

Starting point is 00:29:12 where it wasn't good for Orlando. There's a whole lot of plays. 90% of the snaps, 95% of the snaps, especially in the passing game, where Orlando's just fine. And even contributing as a run blocker a little bit, And so I'm not as worried about Orlando this year.

Starting point is 00:29:29 I'm interested in a succession plan. But to say that Orlando Brown is, you know, like a huge liability at left tackle, I'm not there. I think he's at least an average, which is to say probably quality left tackle in the NFL. He's definitely not Mike Clay's 31st ranked left tackle, right? You saw that? Yeah, I'm not in with that. I think he's better than that for sure.

Starting point is 00:29:52 Yeah, I don't think that the best. angles would pay the 31st best left tackle in the NFL and extension. And I know that they love Orlando and what he brings to the locker room. But I think even on the field, he's still a quality, quality left tackle. And the degrees of quality, I think, are interesting. Like if Joe's a 12 out of 10, Orlando might be like a 7, 7 and a half out of 10. And Amarius might be a 9 and a half. Yeah, he's close.

Starting point is 00:30:20 It's close to start him. Yeah. Like the step that I think we're expecting to see Amari to stake this year is definitely pro bowl territory. And Dylan Fairchild, I think just to wrap up on the offensive line, year two leap after the progression we saw from him as a rookie. And this also goes for the linebackers of some degree. But like the year one to year two is always where you expect to see that the biggest progress for young players in the NFL also applies to Shamar Stewart. And so we'll be fascinating to see all four of those guys this year. they will all have potentially some pretty big roles on this team

Starting point is 00:30:54 and could make some pretty significant impacts this year. So overall, Joe, feeling real good about the offense, Joe Burrow T. Higgins' ability to elevate and overcome. We've seen them do it when they went to the Super Bowl. They had zero quality offensive linemen that year. They just had playmakers in Joe Burrow once they got to the playoffs and started to deal with some attrition. So you know those guys can overcome.

Starting point is 00:31:18 You know the defenses can make plays. And so we need to see some development, I think, especially from the playmakers on that side of the ball. But if it does come together, then, well, that can make you feel pretty good about the future for the Cincinnati Bengals, and then checking the boxes for Daniel Jeremiah's championship contenders. That's going to do it for this episode of the lockdown Bengals podcast. Until next time, thanks for listening. Ho-Day and having a good one.

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