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Cincinnati Bengals' 2024 FA Class, Front Office on the hot seat?

November 12, 20240 comments♥ 0
00:01Cincinnati Bengals fans are looking for changes.Let's answer some questions from fans that are wondering what needs to change for this team to turn it around.You are locked on Bengals, your daily Cincinnati Bengals podcast.Part of the Locked On Podcast Network, your team every day.Well on Bengals fans and welcome to another episode of the Locked on Bengals podcast.I'm your host, Jake Liskow.He's your host, James Rapine.We are Locked on the Lockdown Podcast Network.
00:37covering your team every day. We're on YouTube, where you get your podcast. So shout out to theeverydayers who have come back for another episode of lockdown Bengals as we get through the mini byhere leading into Sunday night football coming off of Thursday night football. And shout out to allof you who make us your first listen. We really do appreciate those of you who make us part of yourdaily routine and welcome into the new listeners. And if you're looking for a daily stop for CincinnatiBengals analysis and news while you're in the right place, you can hit that subscribe button to make sureyou don't miss an episode.Today's episode of Lockdown Bengals
01:10will be a mailbag.We're going to answer your questions,and a lot of you are very clearly unhappy,and rightly so with the way this season is going.In an episode brought to you by Fandallwhere you can place and win a $5 betto get $150 in bonus betswhen you win that first $5 bet.
01:27You can check out fandle.com to get started.And James, the general tenor of questions in this mailbagwas about as critical of the front office.and it's critical of the Bengals as I think I can remember in quite some time,which makes sense because outside of Joe Burroughs injury last year,it's been a while since we've been doing the show,and it's been a season for despair.The last times we've seen this team be relatively healthy,
01:54they've been on track and meeting expectations and making playoff runs,and this year went healthy, not on track for a playoff run.And so the first question that we dive into today is,is reflecting on free agent classes.And Tom Cole asked,can we talk about Sheldon Rankins and Gino Stone,specifically why is their playmaking from last year evaporated?Is it on Lew and the staff?
02:17Is it on the players?Is it on the front office?And to me, James,this opens the door to a broader conversationabout the free agent class in general as well.It does.And there's a lot here.Let's call it like it is.
02:28They're both free agent busts.That's what they've been.What we label draft picks busts really early in their career.I think of Dax Hill,when it wasn't necessarily fair.Heck, even Miles Murphy right now,I think some people view it that way.And we just don't know yet
02:42because those guys haven't established themselves.There's no reason why Sheldon Rankin's should just be done.And yet he looks done.I mean, he's, is it his pressure rate, I believe,and I'm doing this off the top,it's 2%.2%.It's me in math class.
02:59He got 2%.That is, that's not why he's here.The Bengals,invested a ton of money in him.And I think he's the biggest disappointment of the season thus far.Like the biggest.Worse than Gino's Stone because you're paying him.But Gino's what,
03:18seven and a half million?Like it's much different when you're talking about a guy that,one,was supposed to help transform this defenseinto the next era that got up the middle pressure.And he hasn't done that.two is at least part of the reason why DJ Reeder isn't in town.And yeah, the Bengals are comfortable moving on from DJ,
03:42but maybe part of that was because they thought they could get Sheldon Rikinsand get this interior guy that's going to generate pressure.And he hasn't done that.So I'm bumped, and I don't put that on the coaching staff.I don't put that on the front office either because I think,I get the logic.And the issue is, is he's either injured or done.And if he's injured, that really stinks, but get him out of there and have someone else, if you're the front office, in there that can do it.
04:12And they don't, of course.And then, two, if he's done, then man, oh man, how did you not see this coming at least to a degree?And I think it's probably a mixture of both, but Sheldon Rankin's just getting washed out and you don't notice 98 at all.I know we'll get the Gino Stone, but this is my Sheldon Rankin's ramp.really disappointed in what he's done so far.Yeah, the expectation was that he would come in and be at least an okay pass rush around the defensive interior, if not better.Like that has been the strength of his game for the most part throughout his career.He's had seasons where he's been around a 10% pressure rate.
04:51Last year, he had 42 pressures on 431 pass rush snaps for the Texans.Years before that, 25 on 300, 22, on 400, 26 on 200, 90, 22 on 200,000.30. So there's years where he's right around 10%, years where he's a little bit lower.But you have to go all the way back to his first year as a first round draft pick.He's a 12th overall pick for the New Orleans Saints back in 2016.And to go all the way back to his rookie year for anything that comes close to what he's done this year from a pressure productivity perspective.And that was 13 pressures on 243 stats.Even that's better than what he's done this year, which is four pressures on 163 pass rushes.
05:32it's more than twice as good as his productivity this year.And that's his only year that really compares from a productivity standpoint to this year.And Rankins has always been a part-time pass-rush kind of player for the most part.He did some more run defense responsibilities when he was with the Jets.He talked about that.We talked about that when they signed him.But he was signed by the Bengals.It would be a pass rusher.
06:00and they just haven't gotten that impact from him for whatever those reasons are.Maybe it's the snaps that he's playing.Maybe it's the way he's been deployed to some degree.If you wanted to look for reasons besides that he's just hit a wall or that he's injured,there could be some of that at play.But the bottom line is that he's just not producing at a level that was expected for him,not producing at a level that's consistent with his career.And you know how over the cap does those valuations?
06:35Oh, yeah.Valuation based on various factors.They're looking at stuff like, you know,tackles for loss and sacks and that sort of defensive lineand how many games they've played, et cetera.John McIntynex at this point is an OTC over-the-cap value of under $1 million.for sure he's getting paid over 12 million dollars this season and is on the books next yearfor an 11 and a half million dollar cap hit and the Bengals can get out of that pretty easily he
07:11didn't have a big signing bonus and a lot of people are asking is he a cut candidate yeswith Gino stone right now and some others are our cut candidates when we get to the offseasonat this point in the season yeah and by the way thingscan change. And so the, and we're going to talk more about the front office, but the thing thatthat annoys me, let's just say Sheldon Rankin's is hurt. And he's playing through it and he's gotthat big elbow braids on and his hamstring is getting better. But the elbow brace, there'ssomething there with his arm or, well, you should have enough depth, even with him making whathe is to say, all right, we're going to get you healthy. We're going to get you right because
07:51we need you. We brought you in to make an impact when games are on the line. Right now you're not doingget you healthy. And do we think they can afford to do that? And you may argue, yeah, because he'snot doing anything. But if you have the depth that is required to be successful in this leagueon the interior, then it would be fine. But you don't feel confident in that because you'rebanking on two rookies already. We've seen how thin that defensive line is behind B.J. Hillon the interior. So that's the part of the.on the front office that's frustrating.But, man, the Gino Stone won.
08:33I think you could make a really good argumentthat the safety play this year, Jake,is worse than it was last year.And maybe that's starting to changewith Jordan Battle, getting more reps, we'll see.But Gino Stone has been such...I think he's almost been worse in a lot of phasesbecause you thought he would at least be buttoned,
08:56up and communicate right and just do all of the basic things that veterans do.And it doesn't feel like he's doing any of them.He's not a sound tackler.He takes poor angles.They still give up big plays deep downfield.They still have miscommunication issues.All of those things.And then to top it off, we knew he wasn't a great athlete coming in.
09:15And so he just gets more and more exposed.The tackling issue is actually pretty consistent with what he did at Baltimore, at leastfrom a PFF tracking perspective, the mistackle percentage.right in line with his last two years in Baltimore.The big thing with Gino Stone that we're missing is where are the plays?Where are the big plays that he racked up in Baltimore over the last couple of years?Last year, all the interceptions that he put together this year, he's not finding thoseplace.
09:43He left them there.And this one, I would to some degree say is the way he's being used.I think that it was just a much better fit.And Mike McDonald had a much better understanding of where toput his secondary. You're seeing the fall off for Mike McDonald's departure in Baltimorefrom last year to this year as well where you can pass all over the Ravens now.I think a lot of credit for Gino Stone is Mike McDonald, perhaps, in retrospect. Andthe Bengals not getting that impact. But there are some other free agents that we have not
10:14gotten to yet. We will need to continue the discussion going into our next segment here as we wrapup our review of the Bengals' 2024 free agent class and where the Bengals just aren't gettingenough as this 2024 season goes on. We'll do that next.This episode of Lockdown Bengals is sponsored by Fandul America's number one sportsbook,and it's the best place to get into the NFL action right now because new customers can bet $5 and get $150 in bonus bets if you win that first $5 bet.The Fandul Sportsbook app gives you everything you need to place to place on the NFL in one place.So if it's more than just Sunday night football that you want to get into this weekend, you can check out the latest ads.You can check out live play-by-play all on the same page where you place your bets with Fandul.
11:04Again, you can check it all out at Fandul.com to join today and you get $150 in bonus bets if you win your first $5 bet.That's Fandul.com, America's number one sportsbook and official sportsbook partner of the NFL.Today's show is also brought to you by prize picks.It's prize picks is daily fantasy the way it should be.So I know a lot of you and many of you, and I experience the same thing yet.You have injuries in your season-long leagues.Well, you don't have to worry about that with prize picks.And you also don't have to worry about thousands of other players.
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12:10We'll certainly take the less than on Sheldon Rankin Sacks and less than on Geno Stone Interceptions.All right.I kid, I kid.But you can get in right now on Daily Fantasy the way it should be.by downloading the prize picks appand using Co-Locked-on NFL to get $50 instantlyafter you play your first $5 lineup.Again, download price picks today
12:30and use Co-locked-on NFL to get $50 instantlyafter you play your first $5 lineup.Price Picks, run your game.James, did you want to wrap up any thoughts on Gino Stonebefore we get to the rest of these free agentsand round out the conversation on the free agent classand get to the Duke Tobin conversation a little bit?Yeah, I think.
12:55the the geno stone bit element i i think it it ties in there those are things that the bengalsabsolutely nailed with mike hilton's fit dj readers fit got it wrong with tray wanes butoutside of that during their run how many free agents trey hendricksons fifth did they getright and and now we see this pattern with safeties where nicksScott just looks completely lost.And it's like, oh, well, it's a Nick Scott problem.They're going to go get Gino Stone.He had seven picks in Baltimore.
13:32Okay.And the other point, you mentioned Mike McDonald, and he leaves,and he goes to Seattle.And it's this huge loss for the Ravens.The Seahawks could have used a Gino Stone.And it doesn't feel like they went after him that hard.And I do think that that is one of those things where you look at it.You're like, huh, that's interesting.
13:57That's interesting that they didn't go that route.So just something I noted back in March, but you're like,we'll see, it should be fine.Well, it hasn't been fine, Jake.Another common factor with those two guys.And this is an oversimplification.I'm not saying this is exactly what happened is they both had great games againstthe Bengals last year.
14:15And we joke about it a little bit,but this is a pretty common theme around the NFL.The Bengals are no exception.When you see players have good games againstyour team, those guys end up on free agent target lists, right or wrong. And in this case,those moves haven't paid off. The other free agent signings for the Bengals this offseason forexternal guys, Zach Moss had been okay. He had been a frequent target of praise fromBengals' leadership, including Joe Burrow, for being about the right stuff, being in the right place,
14:50being at the right time, and being very reliable player. But he wasn't a difference-making. He wasn't adifference maker. And you did feel the drop-off in receiving production at the running backposition this year. I think you continue to feel that. Von Bell, they brought him back essentiallyfor free, hard to be too critical of that move, but hasn't been the Von Bell that was a greatfit the first time they signed him when he was running back there with Jesse Bates, who was obviouslya great fit in this defense. Trent Brown was playing fine, got hurt. They had issues, I think,getting him brought up to speed.Maybe that's just a Trent Brown issue.
15:27That's a common refrain throughout his career.And it was an unfortunate injury for Trent Brown.I don't think that was a bad move.And Mike Keseki, I think, has been a pretty good move.But you're one for as far as guys that have made a continued impact on this team forone reason or another, whether it's injury or fit.You go back to last year, you're one for Orlando Brown Jr., along with Cody Ford, NickScott, Irv Smith, Sydney Jones, Terrell Basham.
15:52Not a whole lot of impact there, but Orlando Brown undoubtedly a good move.Definitely missing the impact signings like you mentioned of guys like Mike Hilton, Chinobe, Awuzier, Trey Hendrickson, DJ Reader.Those excellent free agents they signed in 2020 and 2021.And even Ted Karas Alex Kappa, who have been long-term impact players for this team in 2022,they've not had those hits with that regularity lately.and when you combine that with the draft,well, we turn our attention to Duke Tobin.By the way, before you do that,
16:30I disagree with you on one thing.The receiving production out of the running back room has been fine.They're going to have more running back receptions this yearthan they did last year.And look, it is what it is.You lose Zach Moss, and that's going to hurt some.But Chase Brown has 30 receptions this year.Zach Moss has 23.
16:51Joe Mixon had 55.You had Chase Brown with 14 last year.I think Nixon had 53.But Chase Brown had 14.Trivian Williams had 7.Like, it's going to be similar.I don't think it's going to be that different.It may feel a little different.
17:03But outside of a few plays,they weren't really that explosive to the running backs out of the backfield anyways last year.The reception numbers and stuff might look similar,but the way that those guys are playing as receivers, I think, is visibly worse,even if the stats end up the same.But not the threat.Dad's guy says that.Oh, my God.
17:23Jake, the stats guy says it.No, I get it.No, I do get the...I think Joe Mixon's a much more natural receiver than Chase Brown, for sure.And maybe they're not using these guys the same way.But I think Zach Moss was pretty natural with the ball in his hand and catching the ball.And that's why I thought he had value before he got hurt when people were poo-pooing the idea of him being on the field.So we'll see if Herbert can help make up for that.
17:50He hasn't done that in the past, so we'll see.But I just don't think it's a huge drop off, huge drop off there necessarily.Not a plan discussion here and not something we're going to get into in further depth today.We've both made our cases there.We don't need to go further.Coming up next, let's transition to a topic focusing more on Duke Tobin.We will talk about the hot seat proverbially for Duke Tobin that may or may not exist.This certainly exists for fans, James, judging from our questions in this week's mailbag.
18:24We've talked about the coaches.We've talked about some players this week.We will spend some more time talking about this front office coming up next.Locked on Bengals fans and listeners, make sure you check out Ultimate Pro Football GM.We're going to talk about Duke Tobin's future, and is he on the hot seat?Well, Ultimate Pro Football GM has everything you could ask for because you can be the franchise GM.you can lead it to glory.And now you have a new head coach career mode that you can take the reins of a franchise.
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19:24Ultimate Pro Football GM is going to be my go-to.It can be yours as well.All you have to do is download it in the app store.And here's a special offer for Locked-on Bengals fans.Use the promo code Locked-on NFL, all caps,inside the game store to receive a free boost to your franchise.Make sure to get it as this perk will jumpstart your playand give you the advantage as you create your dynasty.
19:46To download the game, just visit Ultimate-GM.com.ultimate dash gm.com or look it up in the app store and again use promo code locked on NFL.James, the next question in our mailbag comes from Stini Millie at OS 10 with some underscoresaround it on Twitter.Stini Millie says he hasn't heard the proposition of Duke Tobin possibly being on the hot seatwith the majority of the problems coming from a lack of talent, not sure how he's not in question.And let's just say this wasn't the only question about Duke Tobin being on the hot seat orrequesting us to do an episode talking about the front office and the hot
20:22seats there after we spent some time on other hot seats this week.So Stony Millie, while you haven't heard the proposition, I think we've alluded to it.We'll get into it now.And certainly other fans have the same question.Yeah, I think can you put the family on the hot seat?Like that would be it, right?I get Duke has his flaws and there's been flaws in drafting, the free agent signings, all of thosethings. But if you gave Duke Tobin Truthium, you don't think he would want to have kept
20:54Jesse Bates or pay T. Higgins or keep DJ Reader or, and I'm sure maybe one or two of thosethings he agreed with. Maybe he agreed with all of them and I'm just not believing. But I wouldimagine that's the case. And so that's what's tough is if you're him, you've had to try,you got these guys and you drafted these guys and you got it right.Now you're trying to replace them.And it's just hard.Part of it is it's just hard.Now, the other part of it is you should be able to get some defensive line picks, right?
21:29You should be able to nail some of these cornerback selections, which now feel really rough.And that's the other element here is the past few drafts have just been so brutal.You should be able to draft quality offensive linemen.And maybe they did that this past year.but outside of Amarius Mims and Matt Lee, can we say that?I think Cordell Voulson is certainly training in the wrong direction.And so it's like, man, there's these areas, these problem areas that continue to happenand you lose these other players that you have hit on in the draft.
22:01And now it's been so long since you've had clear wins.Like I think Dax Hill is a win, but he's not a clear win and he's not contributing right now.So it's hard to say because he's hurt.And so it's like, oh, you look at it.And it's rough right now.So do I think Duke Tob is on the hot seat?I don't.I'm not sure what would necessarily change.
22:20I think he does a good job of balancing thingsthe way the Bengals are structured.But he certainly needs to be better and they need to be better.I don't care about the size of the scouting department.They still need to be better in the draft.And that's been a rough spot,I would say, over the past few yearsin very specific areas that are huge weaknesses
22:40on this team right now.You talk about findingclear wins in the draft.And there's this bigger issue of tying in the draft classes and free agency and wherethe coaching staff has input.They're giving their ideas of what players they want to target and how the coaching staffand front office are or are not on the same page for certain players.We talked about the language that the front office versus the coaching staff used around
23:05Dax Hill at times, especially this offseason where the front office is like, how do we thinkDax is a good player?the defensive coaching stuff has to figure out a plan.So there's all these elements,but I think there's this very clear idea of like,okay, let's try to find clear wins in the Bengals draft.You can go all the way back to when Joe Burrow was drafted.Joe Burrow, T. Higgins, Logan Wilson, clear wins.
23:28Mark Chase, clear win.You would probably say Evan McPherson, clear win as well,fifth round pick who's gotten an extension, fair to say.And then Eric Al, dealing with an injury now.that's not the Bengals fault, but did have the injuries in school.It's a good player, but now has the injury question over his head.Where is a clear win since Jamar Chase?Chase Brown probably?
23:55Chase Brown, yeah, that would probably be it.Fifth round running back?Yeah, that's insane that it took that long.Because you better believe, Jake, that if we were just drafted, and I'm not, this isn'tpatting ourselves on the back, it's the opposite.It's saying like, even us, if we just drafted all.all their picks. We would have had clear wins. Even these chuckleheads on locked on Bengals,man. But you know what I'm saying? Like, we're not the ones going to the scouting these guys and
24:20going all over and in meeting and in the Bengals, by the way, they're scouting. They do plenty ofthat through the week when their visits aren't necessarily reported. Like I know their scouts areon the road right now actively. So there's a lot of that on social media. So I don't, I dismissthat, whatever. But you got to get it right some of the time in these, these picks. AndAnd again, I think Amarius is going to be a hit.But it's too early.And it shouldn't go from 21 to 24 outside of a fifth round running backwhere we're talking about clear hits and clear wins for a team regardless of where you're drafting and what round you're drafting them in,
24:58especially with the team that values their draft pick so much because they value the draft.You know, it's rough.You can even go back to before Joe Burrow.Oh, no.Don't do it.And then you're looking like Jermaine Pratt,third round pick in 2019.Drew Sample over your second round pick,
25:19John Williams, your first round pick.D.K. Metcalfe was right there.Year before that is Billy Price in the first roundbefore Jesse Bates and Sam Hubbardin the second and third rounds to save your draft.2017, John Ross.Oh, and I loved him, but oh, man.Like the hits in the draft just aren't there
25:37outside of a couple of top five picks.It's just not consistent enough.T. Higgins, great pick as well.Logan Wilson, good pick as well.But there's this whole thing where between draft picks and the free agent choices,it's just not working right now.Yeah.And it's been that way for at least the Zach Taylor era,
25:57where they've gotten by with Burrow and Chase and Higginsand some of the free agents that they did hit on early in this era of Bengals football.Yeah.but man is a bit inconsistent for all to talk about consistency that we hear from this team.And that's why it's like, oh, well, the Bengals are good at drafting receivers.They'll find a replacement for T. Higgins.It's hard.It's hard.
26:21The same team that found A.J. Green and Marvin Jones and Mohamed Sunoo.Well, what happened?Well, they get Tyler Boyd and Brandon LaFell in Free Agency.And then they're like, uh, John Ross, which, again, I was on board with the pick if you're not taking a quarterback.but it's hard to get it right year in and you're out.And so when you get it wrong in the draft,you have to be able to spend to correct itand be aggressive in free agency or trade to correct it
26:47and vice versa.And when you're getting it wrong in both spacesand both places, this is what you see.You see a very flawed roster that is arguablythe most top-heavy roster in the leaguebecause there's like three guys and then the rest of it,even though there are guys on the rest of the rosterthat are making a lot of money,
27:08they're not performing up to their salary,which really hurts because you haven't drafted wellto help hide some of those shortcomings.And there are some other players that are like good.Mike Hilton certainly won that this stands out as like a guy that is a good player.BJ Hill is a good player,but you have an MVP candidate,an offensive player of the year candidate,
27:26and a defensive player of your candidate right now in your four and six.Tells you something about the top heaviness of the roster.Can you somehow, some way, get more,Mike Hilton on the field a bit more on money downs.Don't care if you worry about him covering.No corner can cover.Just throwing that one out there.Let's get one.
27:46Playmakers, baby.He makes plays, Jake.That makes place.Let's get one last question here quick from Patrick G.If James and Jake had $15 million laying around to spend to improve the Cincinnati Bengals,how would you allocate those funds, high impact player on offense or defense,putting the salary cap aside, expanding the scouting department, player development,or coaching or an analytics department investment,
28:08where would you spend that money, James?You better believe I'm spending that on some playmakers.And I would $15 million in cap or just straight cash?Cap aside was the way past it.So cash, I got it.I get it, cash.Well, first I would redo the media rope.No, I'm just kidding.
28:29No, I would certainly invest in some playmakers.enough and what does that mean well that means 15 million this year could have gotten you calliascampbell it could have re signed dj reader and it along with rankins if you wanted to right um butcampbell and reader and then you could have went out and you could have maybe you trade for a weaponand you absorb that with that cash money um there's a lot of ways to go about it but honestly with howweapons driven i am in the draft i think i would have been able to address the the the other side ofthe ball, the defensive trenches, and maybe get a veteran guard as well. So I would have put itinto the roster around Joe Burrow. I mean, could you imagine if they had one more veteran guard
29:15slash tackle, a guy that can maybe do both right now, plus our legitimate interior pass rushwith DJ Reader slash Callias Campbell, I would feel a lot differently about this team. And I thinkthey'd be two wins better, I would say. Yeah, I wouldn't argue with any of those things. For thesake of being different. Let's say we put the money into analytics and the scouting departmentand modernize there. And I guess the argument there would be, well, if you have more than oneperson doing analytics for your team, maybe there's two now, if you have more than a couple of scoutsand you really embrace modernity in your front office, because we can't do anything aboutthe way they negotiate contracts, I would hire a negotiator as well and a real GM.
30:01that has full GM responsibilities, including negotiations of contracts.And I would get that off of the family's plate and let the family be owners and take them out of football operations further.But I'm available.Because the family is going to do what the family is going to do for better and for worse, sometimes it works out.Sometimes it leads to frustrations.Let's modernize everything else and give us a better chance of getting things right.Because what you're doing right now is not getting things.right enough, as we just outlined, the consistency of finding contributors in the draft,
30:36high-level contributors in the draft in particular, finding free agents that fit your team andmake you better has fallen off in recent years for one reason or another. And so my thinking isperhaps we could spend $15 million. I mean, you're talking $15 million on front office investments.You can do a lot with $15 million to improve your front office.I'll do it for one millionand then I'll hire the right peopleto negotiate the contracts and do itI just oversee it
31:05no I'm dead seriousI'm not saying I would do any of that stuffI would hire the right people that could do itand I would draft Jamir Gibbsin the first roundnaming a draft crush that's allyeah there's just a lot ofyou know a lot of familiarity hires in the NFL
31:25a lot of familiarity signings in the NFLeven Xavier and Howardwho we talked about yesterday coming into Cincinnatibecause he has a connection with Louana Rumo.Like,probably you have to get away from that a little bit.That's the entire league, though.That's not just a Bengals problem.
31:38Yeah, and I would have been fine.They should have got the deal done, as we said on yesterday's show.Like, that's a no-brainer.It should have been done a month ago if Lou wanted him.I'll still do the show, by the way, just so you know.It'll be in the deal.Some conflicts.I'll do locked on from my office.
31:52No way.No way.Let's wrap up the show there.We're back tomorrow with the cross.as we look ahead to Sunday night football and turn our attention to week 11.Until then, thanks for listening to this episode of the Locked-on Bengals podcast.Hootay and have a good one.