Locked On Bengals - Daily Podcast On The Cincinnati Bengals - COMEBACK MATH | What has to happen for Joe Burrow’s return to genuinely MATTER?

Starting point is 00:00:00 Joe Barrow returned to practice for the Cincinnati Bengals, but is his return to play conditional on how the team performs and how much of a difference can he make? Let's answer those questions today. You are Locked on Bengals, your daily Cincinnati Bengals podcast. Part of the Locked On Podcast Network, your team every day. What up, Bengals fans, and welcome to another episode of the Locked On Bengals podcast, part of the Locked On Podcast Network, your team every day.

Starting point is 00:00:34 I'm Jake Liscoe, one of your hosts of the lockdown Bengals podcast, joined today by Paul Dayner Jr., whose work you can find covering the Cincinnati Bengals at an elite level, just like Joe Flacco. But without the 20 years of means over at Theathletic.com and on The Growler podcast, Paul Dayner Jr., with me today to talk about Joe Burroughs return. I want to get from you, Paul, like what the feel was in the building when that news happened on Monday, if it was as much of a surprise to you as it was for the rest of the world. and then we're going to get to the real stories, things we actually should be talking about for the second half of the season, but with Joe Burrow gifting us some news on a Monday out of the by week,

Starting point is 00:01:14 that's where we start today. Welcome back to everyone who makes locked on Bengals there first list, and everyone who is an everyday listener out there. You can also check out the growler for all of those additional Bengals news needs. And Paul, let's dive into it, Joe Burrow. Let's start with, you're in the building,

Starting point is 00:01:31 you're down to Paycourt Stadium or maybe on your way into Paycour Stadium And suddenly, you know, we think the news of the day is Antoine Powell Vryland, perhaps. And this move to add depth, the guy that maybe can rush the pass for a little bit. And then, no, Joe Burrow practicing today. What was a ripple effect from the media perspective from the in the building perspective down there? I think there was kind of a little bit of a surprise probably to it. This was, to me, this was like the big reveal.

Starting point is 00:02:02 Okay. It was, hey, guess what? We've been holding this secret. His rehab has been going really well. Like, we were kind of suggesting to you guys, it was going well. You know, we kind of knew that things were going good, but guess how good? Joe's going to go practice today. To me, it was more, and he's going to talk.

Starting point is 00:02:22 It's like, okay, oh, finally we get to talk to Joe. I mean, was kind of where my head went with it more than the fact that, okay, he's practicing. Because here, I mean, you know, no, matter what, we know a little bit better now, but I mean, when you hear the news, it's like, yeah, they could open the 21-day window, they could activate him, he could be inactive for the entire season, and it doesn't necessarily

Starting point is 00:02:44 mean anything, but let's talk to Joe, because it's, it's been 57 days since Jacksonville, and we have some thoughts and some questions that we all have for him in terms of what he thinks of what's going on. You never know, like, and we'll talk more about what

Starting point is 00:03:02 happened yesterday, but you never know what direction it's going to go with Joe, because he can take it, you know, he can strike the match, he can be a calming influence, he can be philosophical. We've seen it go of many different directions, and specifically in a moment like that, that was where my head went, was I wonder what Joe's going to say today. What direction do you think he took it out of those categories? Like, we got crystal talk, we got some reflection on how, you know, the feelings that he went through and the loneliness of rehab a little bit? What was your takeaway from,

Starting point is 00:03:36 from the few minutes of borough? It was, I am focused on myself and my rehab. It was, this is not a day for big picture. It is not a day for me to, uh, lob grenades where they might eventually be lobbed,

Starting point is 00:03:52 right? There's time for blame, I believe was, was kind of the, the phrase, a bit of the phrasing. It was like, this not right now.

Starting point is 00:03:59 This was about, I'm rehabbing. I'm focused. on coming back and doing everything that I can to be part of this team, perhaps on Thanksgiving, whenever. And there were plenty of opportunities to go philosophical about how things have gone wrong, to tell us exactly what he was thinking. You know, we got the standard Joe Burrow long pauses that you get where he's contemplating

Starting point is 00:04:24 kind of his thoughts on a question, which I always appreciate. You know, you're at least getting thoughtful every time you talk to Joe. But you were getting those in regards to should I go here? You could feel like it was a question where there's a lot of different things he could do. And it was very much more like this is about the fact that I'm trying to come back and trying to help this team and be in calming. And maybe at some point this year in 2025, for it's up, will go different directions. And I think that's certainly on the table. And I would actually expect it judging by the history around here.

Starting point is 00:04:57 But that was not what Monday was going to be. And so I, you know, I think that was his very purposeful approach. One thing that stood out to me as I listened to his comments was the, we'll see how the next two weeks go. And it was, well, we'll see how my toe responds to football activities to more explosive movement, which I would assume he's done some of. And his rehab, he said he's been running for a while now or for a few weeks now, been lifting for a while now. And the test is not to do with throwing. He looks like he's throwing pretty comfortably. We've seen him soft tossing on the sideline.

Starting point is 00:05:36 We know that that toe, and he confirmed it. It's not like bearing a ton of force in a typical throwing movement. But as soon as you have to move, you know, you got to push off that toe. Anyone who has toes knows what that feels like, what it feels like if, you know, things are torn on the bottom of your foot. But the other, the other aspect of it is like, we'll see how the team is doing in two weeks. And that gets to the aspect of like, is there a world where Joe Burrow recognizes

Starting point is 00:06:08 we're not getting back in this thing? I'm going to shut it down. I'm going to let this thing fully heal. I see what's happening with Brock Party who didn't have the surgical repair. He's wearing a steel plate in his shoe. He's still re-injured the thing. Now he's dealing with the fallout there.

Starting point is 00:06:24 Or is it like, no, I'm playing. Screw you guys. I want to play football. I think I can play football. I'm going to play football. Do you think that his return is conditional on how the team plays? No, I think his return is conditional on how he feels. I think this is about a guy feeling healthy.

Starting point is 00:06:41 And if he feels healthy, he's playing football. Okay. Like, this is the guy where there's always something to play for. I mean, four and eight last year, we're going to see who the future of this team is. You know, they rip off a bunch of wins. and I think they hope that they found some things and he said some things and the core of the team did kind of get built whether it's good or not.

Starting point is 00:07:04 The offense is still good. But I don't think, I'm just saying mentally from his approach, right? It's going to be, I want to play football. And if they're three and eight, there's a difference also between like, I might kind of come back early.

Starting point is 00:07:22 It's not quite there. And all right. like if you're cleared if you're healthy if you can play this is your job this is your position there's always something and so i i think that's far more what it is then it's like i mean joe burrow's not a man we're out of it i've seen this dude play when they're down 30 plus he's getting pummeled with zero blitzes okay that's his attitude that's who he is as a football player. That's who he is as a person. It's what's gotten into this point. Some

Starting point is 00:08:00 say he needs to stop being so much like that, but I don't think you're changing who he is. And whether they're until they're officially eliminated, I don't see a world where if he's healthy and cleared, he's like nah, dog, I think this season's over.

Starting point is 00:08:16 I don't see that as part of this equation. And if he feels good and he goes out and he's healthy and plays and has no issues, I think he finishes out the season. regardless. Yeah, I think I'm inclined to agree, but I do have one follow-up question for you around his return to play. And does the organization have what it takes if they feel like they need to stand up to Joe Burrow and say, we're shutting you down? Well, we'll get to that topic here

Starting point is 00:08:44 because I feel like Joe pretty much gets what he wants and we'll see if this is any different in your eyes. We'll get to that topic here coming up next. This show is brought to you by Better Help is the days get shorter and the nights come earlier can start to feel a little heavier, especially when life is already packed with work, family, and everything else. And this season, it's really important to reach out and check in with family, friends, or even yourself, just like checking in on a teammate or reconnecting with someone you haven't seen in a little while can lift your spirits. Reaching out for therapy can make a real difference to him.

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Starting point is 00:09:43 BetterHelp makes it simple to take that first step. Listeners get 10% off their first month at BetterHelp.com slash lockdown. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com slash lockdown. Because taking that step towards support might just leave you wondering. Why didn't I do this soon? All right, Paul, we have to talk about whether Mike Brown is going to intervene here. Do you think that Mike Brown is going to look at this thing? If they get to three and eight, they're thinking about Joe coming back for that Baltimore game on Thanksgiving.

Starting point is 00:10:17 Well, what are the odds we're giving of someone organizationally intervening here? Minimal. That only person from the organization intervening is a doctor. That's what's going to drive this conversation. This is Mike Brown wants to win football games no matter what. Like that is never going to change. That's who they are organizational. It has dictated some of the way they've operated at the trade deadline over the years.

Starting point is 00:10:45 It had an impact this year. They are never going to give up. They are never going to say they're not trying to win. And they're never going to do everything in their ability to make that happen. And that obviously includes Joe Burrow being out there as a quarterback if he can. if there was some risk of severe like re-injury that could be significant that the doctors said look if you put them out here now there's a chance and i don't get the impression with this injury that that's necessarily the case because he did have surgery and is back now this is not like a high re-injury rate thing when you've gone to the lengths that they've gone to here um so if they come back and say look, there's not some heightened re-injury risk here. He is healthy enough to go out there and play and move and do what he does.

Starting point is 00:11:39 Then the expectation is going to be that he's going to play and the organization's going to support that. If there is any sense, though, that like there's a risk involved in this for because of the toe or whatever, then, yeah, then I think the organization would have different feelings about it. This is going to be driven by the doctors. And those are the people that are going to be steering this. And the Bengals are going to be trying to win games no matter what. And I think that's Burroughs approach as well. So those probably do mesh in the middle. It's just going to be a matter of the doctor's opinions on that.

Starting point is 00:12:19 A lot of the feedback that I've noticed since, you know, the last 24 hours essentially, since Joe was going to return to practice, was like, but why? Why risk it? why put them in a position where this thing could get re-injured? So I'm curious, and, you know, if, do you, is that a sense you've gotten from talking to people in the building that, like, since they went the surgical repair option, that the risk of re-injury is lower, is that your own independent research? Because I haven't gotten there quite yet, but I've not gotten to or seen risk of re-injury for surgical intervention turf toe injuries versus just return to play. But you think about prominent turf toe injuries in the NFL, guys that don't. have surgery, AJ Green, of course, in Cincinnati, an example, Brock Purdy, the example this

Starting point is 00:13:03 year, the risk of re-injury does always seem pretty high. I mean, that's just what I've heard from doctors that I talked to at the original outset. Gotcha. Okay. Now, again, if you're the doctors that they're going to be dealing with are going to be Joe's docs, like what, how they view it. And I think that's what they're going to be with, whatever that information is to them in terms of, okay, there is a 10% higher risk of re-injury today

Starting point is 00:13:33 compared to in what, you know, in 10 days against Buffalo in not an or this is going to be there the rest of the season. Then yeah, then I think the conversation is is very different. That's what's going to be the driver, the driver here for me. The other side of this is to me, and it's kind of the bigger picture, the sadness of this situation. I had to like a great Bengals fan sent me the Lieutenant Dan meme yesterday of New years and like the celebration, but Lieutenant Dan is just sitting there sad. Like it's just the thing is this is not fixing the problem. The hot take from yesterday is the biggest news that came out of

Starting point is 00:14:16 yesterday was that Trey Hendrickson is already doubtful for Sunday. Yeah. He is the Joe Burrow hero that needs to come flying in right now. Not actual Joe Burrow. And that's nothing against Joe Burrow as a great quarterback. They currently have since Joe Flacco got under center for the first time here, the number one offense and football by EPA. Like they have that. They scored 80 points the last two weeks.

Starting point is 00:14:41 They've needed anybody capable of making a stop, anybody that can make one play that you can win 38 to 35 instead of lose 47 to 42. Trey Hendrickson is that guy. He's the elite closer. That's his skill. The one thing that they've needed more than anything the last two weeks, he has not been able to provide because he hasn't been out there. And the fact that he is already doubtful,

Starting point is 00:15:11 you know how they love to string these injury situations out and like, I don't know, we'll see, keep them guessing. Not going to, no need to reveal anything. already like yeah doubtful after the trade deadline everybody can can try to read between lines and whenever they want that to be you're never going to get a concrete answer on that but the bottom line is they need trey hendricks and more they don't need joe burrow right now because the offense is humming along just fine you're always going to take joe burrow like over joe flacco but what flaco is currently doing is leading the best offense in football what else do you want is

Starting point is 00:15:49 know, is Burrow going to come back and they're going to score 100 points in two games? Like, they're scoring at such a high clip that, you know, this is always going to be about the defense the rest of this season. And so it's cool. It's a nice distraction, but it's really the same conversation we had when Burrow was playing at an MVP level last year. Does it even matter? And the answer is it probably doesn't until something else changes. And that's sort of the sad aspect that hovers over all of this. Yeah, the defense is still historically bad in many categories, which we didn't think it could get worse than last year.

Starting point is 00:16:27 It is worse than last year. That's, I think, one of the stories for the rest of the way that we're going to talk about here. I do want to make one argument about why Joe Burrow could matter. This assumes that they can beat Pittsburgh, I think. I think you have to be Pittsburgh for any of this to matter at all if you're the Cincinnati Bengals. But the Bengals offense, like you said, number one EPA offense in the last four weeks, they've scored 33, 38 and 42 points. They started to figure things out in that second half against Green Bay.

Starting point is 00:16:57 The running game has come alive. The argument that I would make about why Joe Burrow matters is when you play defenses that are decent or better, I think it gets a little bit harder for the quarterback position to keep things going. it's going to get harder for them because a lot of the success has been in the run game right flacco has been good don't get me wrong i love to get romantic poetic about what joe flacco is doing on the other side of 40 late in his career but run game big part of this especially against the jets that the passing underlying passing numbers aren't great even though there has been a lot of production for joe flacco and the defenses have been bad so if the deep if right big if and one of the

Starting point is 00:17:41 the big conversation points for us the rest of the way is if this defense is not in fact a historically bad defense and is just a seasonally bad defense and finishes at like 30th or 29th worst in these categories instead of 32nd and also like 800th in the last 800 defenses in the last 25 years then those margins matter on offense right big if to get there but having Joe Burrow running your offense obviously gives you a lower floor or a higher floor against some of the better defenses in the week. They're better with Joe Burrow. That's not my argument here.

Starting point is 00:18:16 I mean, they're clearly better. He's going to be better. I mean, his ability to create on third and longs. I mean, you've seen that. You know, the one thing you've seen is when they've needed that, like, extra play when things break down. Like, that's not going to be there. That's not really going to be part of Flacco's game.

Starting point is 00:18:31 But he's made up for that and his ability to get rid of the ball quickly and find the playmakers and all of that stuff. You're right, though, when Christian Barmore and Milton Williams are, blowing it up the middle on flacco you're gonna there's going to be a different level of concern than you're having in what they've had in recent weeks against some of the teams that with the jets and the bears and things like that that's there there's no doubt i'm not saying that it's not better i'm just saying that you know in terms of what it really means in the long run i mean you can if you're on the fence you you can push it one more week you know because of how well that they've

Starting point is 00:19:10 played where your comfort level with Joe Flacco. If we're, you know, if we're talking about, look, there's 10 days between Thanksgiving and that game in Buffalo. Okay. To me, that's probably what this conversation is about is, okay, it may be a touch early. I think in 10 days, you'll feel really good about Burrow coming back and be able to be himself, because that's it, right? Is he going to be able to do those things fully?

Starting point is 00:19:34 And we all know early week Burrow, like week one borough is, you know, no one wants to see that. You want to know that he's going to be able to go out there and you hope, be confident to fully know that he can go out there and get into it. And if you, and if Flacco has been doing what he's been doing, and Baltimore would not be one of those defenses you're referring to. They're getting better, but they're getting better. They've been better. I'm not saying they're not better. But they're, you know, this is not, you know, even New England, right? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:20:03 My point is, like, I think that's probably what we're talking about. Yeah. We're probably talking about that decision. because I think by that if it really is where they say it is and everything goes along as well as it has, I think Buffalo feels like a realistic timetable and where you feel really good probably about where he's at or as good as you're going to, assuming they're still in it at that point. And I think you can be confident that Joe Flacko and this offense could go into Baltimore and win because they have done more than enough to score points offensively against just about anybody that they've been. up against and so until i see differently uh i think you could that could be something that

Starting point is 00:20:45 affects it and after that yeah you're always going to want burrow over flaco that's to me that's not necessarily the debate it's about when you get into the little gray area there yeah i do keep wondering if the other shoe is going to drop on joe flacco at some point because it's typically what's happened for him throughout his stops i think we started to see some of those cracks but the big if is really on the defensive side of the ball. And I think that's where we go to finish the show here is like, how much should we be talking about who? Like, is it the players?

Starting point is 00:21:16 Is it the coaches? Where does it, where does the conversation? Where should the conversation be? We'll finish that conversation here with Paul DeNir Jr. Coming up next. We're brought to you today here on Lockdown Bengals by Supply House. When the opening whistle blows on a new repair,

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Starting point is 00:23:29 and what's going to predict or predicate his return to play. But the bigger issue is that this isn't historically bad defense. You've obviously covered this quite a bit this year. We've talked about it on lockdown Bengals as well. Everybody who's watched football can kind of tell. And sometimes it's hyperbole when you're just watching a game and you get that, man, this might be the worst defense I've ever seen. But this year is statistically backed up.

Starting point is 00:23:54 Where should we be directing our focus as we talk about this topic? Obviously, the big coaching overhaul under Zach Taylor happens. And the feel at the time was like, okay, Zach, these are the changes you need to make this thing work. Okay. Let's see how that goes. And so far it's really not working. So when we talk about the stories that we should be focusing on and the people we should be focusing on for this team, is they try to find their way back to relevancy on a second quarterback contract for the first time maybe ever.

Starting point is 00:24:25 Can't seem to figure it out at that point. Where is your focus the rest of the season for this team? I mean, at some point, it's the same single focus that has been since really this point last year. When are any of these young players going to get better? Or do they just think? And when do you cut bait on it? And I think we're at the point now with, you know, a good majority of them, probably this year's rookie class notwithstanding, to cut bait time. They're not good.

Starting point is 00:24:55 the players are bad this is the problem okay this is multiple coordinators this is multiple systems this is multiple theories on motivation and these players have not gotten better they cannot do what you want them to do what any coordinator would want them to do they should be able to go out there and show you some flashes we're like not even seeing flashes with some of them okay you have we sort of we dubbed it the defining nine right these nine top 100 picks in the rotation this year all year. This is what this was going to define the season. One.

Starting point is 00:25:33 One has turned into something. DJ Turner. Cool. You got one. All right. That's the problem. That number needed to be in the four or five range. And that's before we get into some of the, you know, the other guys that are just on the outside of that,

Starting point is 00:25:50 who you've brought in and now you've given major roles. I think this is, this is about the. players. This is about the people that pick the players. This is about everybody having their hand in the cookie jars. It's absolutely about the coaches too. This is a hand in the cookie jar situation. Everybody's

Starting point is 00:26:07 in it. There's nobody that can have any sort of responsibility over this debacle happening on defense that doesn't have some part of the blame and have to have some of it on their shoulders. We're going to go back and look so much back

Starting point is 00:26:23 on the decision to move into Barrett Carter from Logan Wilson for a long time this year and to bring instability further into play, to lean further into a rookie class that already you were young, you were inexperienced, you needed

Starting point is 00:26:39 anything, and to say, you know what, in the long run, it's going to pay off. We'll judge that the second half of the season. Does Barrett Carter suddenly start playing better? Does Demetrius Knight start playing better? Can Shemar Stewart look like anything?

Starting point is 00:26:55 that other than lost right now. Like it's he the the it's I guess we maybe we shouldn't have been surprised that in training camp and in shorts that he was flashing all the time. The awareness that you want out of a player is not there right now. Will it show up? I don't know. That's the scouting report on Shamar Stewart was was that that's where the four and a half sacks thing is kind of we put it on this number.

Starting point is 00:27:19 But it was really about awareness. It was about ability to see the play, make the play and use your athletic ability. to do that. We just haven't seen that. Yeah, and finish, right. Because he's been around a couple of plays and just, you know, the mistackle issues showed up. You end up on the ground. You end up, you know, all that stuff.

Starting point is 00:27:37 Like, the bottom line is it's, it's awareness of a bunch of young players and too much youth and inexperience out there and none of it getting better. Okay. So, all right. Well, if you made this submission, who knows? I feel like you can make real arguments that. if they would have held off to the by week on the Logan Wilson, Barrett Carter thing, that Logan, well, one, would still be here.

Starting point is 00:28:02 And two, they might have won one of those two games. I don't know. It's like, it's not like Logan's been great. I'm not trying to make this some giant decision. But, like, you didn't need much. You need some stability out there. So, yours coaching involved in that. And Zach Taylor is going to have to wear this defense, whether he likes it or not.

Starting point is 00:28:19 Okay, like whether that's not really my area of expertise, as he said, when I asked him about that. Like, I get it. You are the offensive guy here. You're calling the plays. You have this offense that has been consistently good. You've dealt with adversity at your quarterback position, and you've had high-end play in both areas.

Starting point is 00:28:39 Cool. You're the head coach. Like, you wear this defense, too, and you don't usually get to hire a second defensive coordinator. Obviously, Al Golden is wearing a portion of this, and the blanket is all on top of Duke Tobin and company. So it's, I don't think there's a way you can look at this defense and be like, oh, there's people who it's not really their fault. No, it's everyone's fault.

Starting point is 00:29:01 Like, that's the only way you land getting compared to the like 1966 giants and teams from the 20s. You know, like that's the only way you end up. Yes, that's the only way you end up in, or even the 2018 Bengals. Yeah. You know, like where you had to blow out Terrell Austin in the first year. year halfway through like and and the head coach loses his job after that like that that's the only way you end up in this spot when it's everyone's fault and so I I don't know how you like pick and choose amongst them uh because everybody's got some role in it when I have one quick funny question

Starting point is 00:29:43 first then then one final uh topic for us to hit here when when you see uh the ideas that Marvin was making all the calls that put the good defenses together in the past because we know that the it's not that funny I guess but we know the coaches are involved with with picking players in Cincinnati and you get this regime change 2019 and and they can't draft defensive players anymore when you see people like oh they should bring back Marvin Lewis to be the GF Oh my god once you get past the absurdity part of it like yeah yeah go ahead what what are your thoughts when you see this I mean, is it, it is that bad, right? I wanted to say, is it this bad?

Starting point is 00:30:29 People, it's out there. I've seen it is. I mean, I've seen it too. I've seen it too. I can't help but laugh at the concept. Like, no. I mean, first of all, like, let's not act like the personnel decisions were just stellar. I mean, there was all kinds of issues happening there.

Starting point is 00:30:44 You know, when did they draft well defensive? And they had, you know, that we can talk about the 21, 22 teams, which was a free agency microwave and like they i think that duke tobin and his crew don't probably get enough credit for what they did there it's not you don't just pay people and like it automatically hits like they hit it a crazy rate in free agency for multiple years and built a really nice thing they deserve credit like that's not the world they play in in the Cincinnati it's not and they don't get to do that when they've tried since then it's gone really bad and so you know they that's because it's not a world that anybody has that kind of hit rate that was a once in a lifetime hit rate

Starting point is 00:31:22 for a two-year run, which deserved credit, but that's not sustainable. And so you have to draft well and they have it. When have they really consistently draft well on the defensive side of the ball? Mike Zimmer was here. Like, you really have to go back there when you had that guy and that vision going for you.

Starting point is 00:31:42 They've had hits here and there, certainly, and you've had some of that. But really, like, when Zim was here, they were rocking and rolling on, defense and hitting on picks and drafting well. And then really when he left, it just wasn't quite the same. And it really hasn't been quite the same.

Starting point is 00:32:02 And I think that's not coincidental. You know, in my opinion, that's just sort of my, I don't, yeah, Marvin Lewis would not come in as a GM and, and fix any of this.

Starting point is 00:32:15 Marvin's skill. He was really good at managing up and has a great literature with Mike Brown and that helped them get a lot of things going here but being a personnel guy nailing it it would not have been where I would have pegged his strength no so you heard it here first Mike Zimmer for Bengals GM that's hey take away hey there you go Zim for G's he's look he's he's nearby just give him he could do GM from his from his ranch like he could he could work from the ranch in Kentucky, no problem. Just has to show up on draft night.

Starting point is 00:32:53 That's it. The last thing here, Fall, before I let you go, I have personally found it very hard to discuss the idea. And I know you've broached this topic that the Bengals would consider changing anything in their personnel department with Duke Tobin, who's part of the family is the only non-Brown to run the personnel department in the team's history that's had three different men in that role. 1999 what is different this year because you've talked about it I think for the first time that I can recall

Starting point is 00:33:27 we've talked about it more seriously I think than than in the past because when you have something this historically bad it kind of brings this stuff up when you look at the recent because like you guys said I think on a recent growler episode this is the same front office that just took you to a super woman a FC championship game in back to back years with the rookie quarterback contract and yeah, they had some top picks to help them get there, but they got you there. And now we're here. So how do you approach that discussion as someone who's been covering this scene for a long time and kind of knows how they work?

Starting point is 00:34:01 It's hard. I think you have to do a lot of reading tea leaves. And, you know, a lot of it just feels different. I think the phrase that I keep going back to is there's, it feels like there's more cracks in the foundation now. than there ever have been around Duke Tobin. And that's not, I think, out of the ordinary for anybody who's in his type of role. But the Bengals are one of one, not one of 32.

Starting point is 00:34:32 Like, I think people that expect them to operate like other franchises, you just can't look at it that way. That said, what has happened in the last two and a half years, it just feels like it's never more pointed back. to Duke. The other side of it is, you know, this goes back to the beginning of the Zach Taylor era, really. I mean, where for the first time when they introduced Zach Taylor, Duke Tobin was up there next to Mike Brown. This is for the first time, it's him. It's his guy. The first big move, and this has sort of been the Zach and Duke show. Well, when the Zach and Duke thing starts going as sideways as it currently is, well, you, you're He has to be in that mix more so than ever before. And, you know, I think he was doing a large part in, like, keeping the franchise from falling apart when a lot of other things were not right in the past.

Starting point is 00:35:32 But now you have this thing. And his face and his job and what he's doing is just far more in the forefront of what's going wrong. And so we don't know, like, how far they're willing to go down. we know how embedded he is. We know what the trust level is. I mean, they view him as family, and we know the patience level here historically. I mean, it was just two and a half years ago.

Starting point is 00:35:56 They were on top of the world from a personnel standpoint. They had had the two best teams, arguably, in their history, and one that went to the Super Bowl, one went to the AFC championship, and the roster was deep and all that. It's just everything's been wrong since then. So it's hard to judge there's no precedent here. There's nothing to point to, like, oh,

Starting point is 00:36:15 well, we know how they are. operate in this situation. I more equated to Marvin in that at some point there will be a where you know, you can't just keep doing this. Marvin was here for 16 years and there was sometimes you wondered if it would just be forever and inevitably it wasn't. So I just feel like right now, I don't know what's going to happen this year at the end of the year. I know there's going to be a lot of answers that people are going to have to give and he's more at the center of that conversation than ever. But I, you know, it would be stunning to see him go. Like that's all. That's what I come back to. Yes, I feel like there's more cracks than before because obviously. But it would just

Starting point is 00:37:00 be stunning, giving who he is and the patience of the organization. And so we wait and we'll watch and we'll see how exactly it all goes down. Yeah, the history makes it. And the lack of precedent i've said the exact same thing like not having a precedent it will be unprecedented for the bengals to make a move there we have never seen them do it outside of bringing duke in for the first time which was not even a gm role initially he's become the de facto which is i i love how you talk about this the de facto gm which is a ridiculous title for anyone in the nfell to have yeah but it's not how it was originally and he kind of grew into that role so yeah it would be unprecedented that's why it's been such a

Starting point is 00:37:41 struggle for me to wrap my head around like how some we even talk about Duke you know like I think you talk about I think you have to talk about it I don't I don't I don't think it makes sense to be like oh yeah it'll probably never have it could like it's not I mean look he he it's not like he has no responsibility to his bosses yeah you know however long you've been here like that doesn't necessarily mean that you that you don't have responsibility over this roster and look we we've seen them with Marvin go from look we just want to feel like we're a little younger a little more on the cutting edge a little different and you have three AGMs lined up underneath that understand the organization that have proven themselves and whether it's tray

Starting point is 00:38:28 Brown who's had interviews or Steven Risivik who's run pro or mike potts who's been at the tip of this beer with college like they know the deal here and that's such a big thing when we talk about what would have to have what it would have to be like you need somebody to come in here that knows the deal and that understands what it is and that the family trusts so if you were ever going to consider something like this you would have to feel like you had something lined up that you feel like you can trust that person to enter the circle that really only one person's ever really entered totally. And so if you like that makes it a little bit more because that hasn't really previously

Starting point is 00:39:12 existed. And so now that you see it a little bit more, perhaps you can start to see things. But again, the word is stunning if that were to happen. But yeah, it's you have to talk about it because of. The also unprecedented nature of what's happening on the defensive side of the ball. Unprecedented times lead to unprecedented conversations. You can find Paul Daner's work at The Athletic and the Growler podcast has a great job with all of his Bengals coverage.

Starting point is 00:39:40 I'm sure if you are watching, you know him. But if you don't, you're missing out. Thanks, Paul, for the time. And until next time, thanks for listening to this episode of the Lockdown Bengals podcast. Ho day. Have a good.

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