Locked On Bengals - Daily Podcast On The Cincinnati Bengals - Development and Consistency Key to Bengals Bounce Back on Defense

Episode Date: May 28, 2025

We've said it once, we've said it a hundred times: Al Golden has his work cut out for him in getting the Cincinnati Bengals' defense to bounce back in 2025. Jake Liscow is joined by Joe Goodberry to discuss how exactly that could happen, including how scheme can help veterans like Cam Taylor-Britt and Geno Stone bounce back, and how development will be crucial in the front seven for players like Myles Murphy, Shemar Stewart, and Demetrius Knight.Join the Locked On Bengals Insider Community! https://joinsubtext.com/lockedonbengalsFind and follow Locked On Bengals on your favorite podcast platforms:Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/locked-on-bengals-daily-podcast-on-the-cincinnati-bengals/id1159723162Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7AObc0lh0WmQl5fJVgtajsGoogle Podcasts: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vbG9ja2Vkb25iZW5nYWxz?sa=X&ved=0CAYQrrcFahcKEwio_sXtj8nuAhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQAgStitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/locked-on-bengalsSupport Us By Supporting Our Sponsors!Support Us By Supporting Our Sponsors!FanDuelRight now, new customers can get TWO HUNDRED DOLLARS in BONUS BETS when your first FIVE DOLLAR BET WINS! Download the app or head to FANDUEL.COM to get started. Bet with FanDuel—Official Partner of the NBA.Monarch MoneyTake control of your finances with Monarch Money. Use code LOCKEDONNFL at monarchmoney.com for 50% off your first year.FANDUEL DISCLAIMER: 21+ in select states. First online real money wager only. Bonus issued as nonwithdrawable free bets that expires in 14 days. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Gambling Problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit FanDuel.com/RG (CO, IA, MD, MI, NJ, PA, IL, VA, WV), 1-800-NEXT-STEP or text NEXTSTEP to 53342 (AZ), 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat (CT), 1-800-9-WITH-IT (IN), 1-800-522-4700 (WY, KS) or visit ksgamblinghelp.com (KS), 1-877-770-STOP (LA), 1-877-8-HOPENY or text HOPENY (467369) (NY), TN REDLINE 1-800-889-9789 (TN) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Let's talk about Al Golden's biggest priorities as he looks to get this Bengals defense to return to form in 2025. You are Locked on Bengals, your daily Cincinnati Bengals podcast. Part of the Locked on Podcast Network, your team every day. What up, Bengals fans, and welcome to another episode of the Lockdown Bengals podcast on the Lockdown Podcast Network, your team every day. I'm Jake Liskow host of the Lockdown Bengals podcast, where we've been covering the Cincinnati Bengals Daily since 2016, getting you that great Bengals news and analysis, joined today by Joe Goodberry, whose work you can find on Bengals on the Brain over on the first off logistics YouTube page where he provides great content, breaking down film topics

around the Cincinnati Bengals. And today we dive into how the Cincinnati Bengals defense can get better, low bar in 2025. The everydayers knew this was coming. Yesterday we spent a lot of time talking about the offense and specifically stars like Joe Burrow and Jamar Chase and finding ways to get even more out of the players who are already great on this team to take the Bengals further in the playoffs

and they've been in a few years. If you're not in every day or yet, you can become one by clicking that subscribe button it'll help you make sure you don't miss an episode on YouTube or anywhere you get your podcast and develop good listening habits like making Lock on Bengals your first listen. Love those good listening habits.

Today we dive into the defense, like I said, and starting with some players that we've seen play well in the past that the Bengals need to reach those heights again and be those players again. And then we're going to talk about what Al Golden's top development priorities are because I think that those two elements are probably the biggest deal in terms of getting this defense to play at an even average level. I think we'd all be pretty happy with that.

It's not going to be perfect. I think that would be a monumental achievement. I don't think anyone can reasonably expect that. But a lot of defense is getting players to play their best and play in a cohesive manner. Where offense, I feel it's much easier to talk about how individuals can do things a little bit differently. You can do that on defense for sure. But so much of defense and why it's so much less stable than offense to me, Joe, is it's such a, team process.

How does the team play collectively? Because it's a weak link system, much like offensive line is a weak link, weak link system. When there's a weak link, it's repeatedly taken advantage of. But they have more weak links than they should have last year and some players that have been good before. And that's why I think that's where we start. Yeah, I think this is a completely different conversation than what we had yesterday with the offense, right?

I mean, the offense were your good offense, can you maintain that? or is there room to improve? And we maybe buried the idea that Scott Peters can really improve this offensive line despite not adding a premium talent to it. But the defensive side is all of it. That's the entire conversation is can this coaching staff get the players that we've seen play well before, whether that's Logan Wilson and Trey Hendrickson, maybe different ends of that where we saw Trey just have a defensive player

of the year type season. Can he match that again if he's happy, if he's here, all that? we have to assume, we're talking best case scenarios in a lot of ways here. We have to assume Trey's on the field and playing for the Bengals in 2025. And that is the hope. Let's hope that still happens. But Logan Wilson, another one, defensive captain of this team. Can you get him to play the way we've seen him play before?

Can you shore up in front of him? Maybe it's just as simple as getting T.J. Slayton in the room and having an actual nose tackle on this team to get this linebacker unit to play where you need him to play. And how does Logan play next to maybe an unknown for the first time in his career at the linebacker spot because Pratt was drafted here before Logan Wilson was. So it would be the first time with a new running mate there. How does that affect them? But I do think there is a lot of room. This is a much more positive episode in a lot of ways than even the offensive side,

despite knowing the offense will probably be good again. There is a lot of room for the defensive side to get better because they have spent so many picks on the defensive side. There are so many young resources that if they take marginal steps in the right direction, this defense could be 16th. And we know defense can be volatile from year to year, right? The output, and this is what you spoke about. Like, even the Bengals, had they kept the lieu and kept largely the same roster,

could have had a better defense in 2025. That's just how it goes a lot of the times. But the Bengals couldn't afford to take that risk, which is why they went in the direction of Al Golden with the idea of these young guys we've drafted and signed and have put these resources in, we need to get better play out of them. And I think that's the goal here. And part of it is also seemingly simplicity, right?

And pairing down perhaps what they do, maybe making it a little bit less exotic, where we saw Luana Ramos defenses thrive in their versatility, their game-to-game, game planning-based defense where they could do a lot of different things when they had the personnel for that. When they had DJ Reader and Jesse Bates especially, they had those pieces where they could be very multiple and very different on a week-to-week basis as far as what they to present to opposing offenses. And maybe they just don't have those pieces now. I would argue very clearly that they don't. T.J. Slayton is a nose tackle, sure, but he's not B.J. Hill.

And I don't think that that should be the expectation for T.J. Slayton. If he does that, T.J. Slayton is a guy that they catch lightning in a bottle, and he goes out there and reprises B.J. Hill's second contract play for the Cincinnati Bengals. That is transformative. That's awesome. Great. Awesome. That helps your defense significantly. If they can get Gino Stone to return to form, great. That helps your defense significantly. And I think that's where it's interesting as far as how can they get some of these guys to get back to a level where they're playing a little bit better.

And I think that starts probably with Logan Mose and Gino Stone, Cam Taylor Britt. It's probably that triumvirate of players, triumvirate of players that they need. I don't know if I'm using it correctly. Maybe I'll look it up while you're talking about those three guys. But if you had to prioritize which guy they need to bounce back the most, because it's not like Logan Wilson was really bad last year or anything. He actually started the year out really well. Then he had the injury.

He didn't finish a year. I would argue that he was a little bit worse than he's been at his peak. But is it Camp Taylor Britt? Is it Gino Stone? Which player do you pinpoint as like, we need this guy specifically to get back to the level that we'd seen him at previously in the NFL? I would struggle to divide or choose one between Gino Stone and Cam Taylor Britt. So I'll talk about both.

And I think Cam is probably the opinion wrong with the loose scheme versus what could happen here with the L. Golden scheme and the change. It's shown the ability, I mean, just the interception versus. the chiefs. That hobby of tackler, a hitter, run defender with speed, with intelligence, right? So like, how do you end up being so inconsistent as a player in the Lou Anurmo scheme in year three, which we were talking about at this point last year. Hey, if Cam takes a step in development, we're talking about it in a contract extension. And maybe we still are, although I would have some warnings about that based on his age. Anyway, getting Cam to play with consistent level, consistent level of play and technique is probably

one of the biggest goals for Lou and Ruma. Part of the issue with Lou's scheme was, and maybe the big issue, was the communication and lack of answers when offenses presented them with something they were unprepared for. And I think this is something I've talked about with subscribers a bunch, and we may have talked about this

when we've done episodes together, whether we're streaming or on lockdown, Jake. But I think it's coming. out more and accepted more. Logan Wilson talked about this when they first arrived, when players first arrived back in Cincinnati, he's been very open about it. But I think the defense and the players were searching for

answers. When they got to something, every defense has rules and answers for whatever offense is presented. Okay, they want to go three by one, and then they're going to motion to a two by two set. You take him. I've got one. You've got two. Like, everyone knows what's going on and what the answers are. But it seemed like the Bengals

only had, and this maybe isn't a, will be offensive to Lou Anuromo backers, but 75% of the playbook and answers they needed. And the other 25% was a great area. And I think Cam really struggled with that. I think Jordan Battle, I think a lot of these young guys really struggled with that concept of communicating on the fly and figuring it out. And that's why Bell and Bates worked so well.

And you had Chiodobie Ouzier and, you know, everyone in their prime at that point. And they were taken upon themselves to have great communication. And they really did pre-snap to post-snap. but when you mixed up the safety room, it really took a toll and had an effect on all these players. And I think Cam, if you can straighten him out, get him focused, get him to play like a veteran, get him to lock in and play with great technique down to down.

I still think he can be a very, very good player for this team. And then that bleeds in the Gino Stone. When they simplified it, that second half of the year, whether you want to use PFF grades or just look at the tape or watch how often he was making an impact, it really leveled up the final five weeks or so. for Gino Stone, and we've seen him be a good player in the NFL, and he is still very young. He's not some 28, 29-year-old veteran that we're hoping could relive glory days.

He is in his prime right now. Now, what is his prime and how good could it be? I think a simplified defense that also puts these guys in clear position. Simplified doesn't have to mean it's less aggressive or less confusing for the offense. What it means is these guys have the answers and know how to play fast down to down, which I think is key for both of these guys. I think some thoughts on both of those that will get into a little bit more detail.

What those positions that play to their strengths and how the Bengals can play to those guys' strengths because they are both key pieces. We'll get into those thoughts coming up next. This episode of Lockdown Bengals is sponsored by Fandall. Fandle knows the NBA playoffs are in full swing and delivering those highlight-worthy performances, major comebacks and momentum shifts and can't miss moments.

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But the Ravens at minus 140. The Bengals at plus 220, some positive odds for the Bengals. future. Maybe you even want to look at week one where the Bengals are five and a half point favorites against the Cleveland Browns. Right now you can get $200 in bonus bets to play with Fandul. If you win your first $5 bet, again, if you're new, you sign up, go to fandul.com, place your first $5 bet. You'll get $200 in bonus bets. Make every moment more with Fandul, official sports betting partner of the NBA. Joe, what I want to talk about next was as pertains to Gino Stone and Cam Taylor-Ritt in particular is what

schematically fits them better than how they were used last year. I think there's a very clear answer here for Gino Stone where for Camt Taylor-Brit, I feel like more of the plays that stand out to people negatively last year, plays where he just doesn't seem to be on the same page as the rest of the defense. And I think your communication point is really salient there, finding ways to make sure people understand what their jobs are on a play-to-play basis so you don't have those lapses. I think that really stands out for Cam Taylor Britt,

but there are, I'm sure, things that can be done to amplify him from a scheme perspective as well, where Gino Stone is more, let's not have him playing post-safety as much. Let's give him more opportunities to play half-field coverages, third-field coverages, where his responsibility isn't anything deep and pick aside and really challenge that range. And if he doesn't guess right or have those anticipation plays where he understands what the offense is doing and can break early,

he's going to have a hard time covering all of that ground because that's just not his strength, right? I think you go back to how he was used at a top level in Baltimore. It was less single high kind of stuff. And where that fits in without Golden and where I wonder what direction they want to go there is Golden played a lot of one high man coverage at Notre Dame. And so I do wonder how that,

translates for Geno Stone, but what are your thoughts about how schematically those guys can potentially be amplified if you get the basics and the simplification and the communication stuff down? Yeah, because communication and having those answers is key to anyone playing faster, more confidently and better overall. But I think the change to man coverage and a more man cover heavy defense can be good for almost everyone. I looked at PFF grading going back the last four years for a lot of these guys. And everyone has had a solid year in man coverage or has been better in man coverage based on PFF grading throughout their career,

whether that's Dax, DJ Turner, Cam Taylor, Britt, even the linebackers, Jermaine Pratt, we'll see, you know, he's not here, but he was an example. Logan Wilson has been, I think for Cam, getting him in those situations, simplifying it that way can do wonders for him and allow him to play a little more freely and understand, hey, I got my guy, that's it. play to the best you can. And he's in a contract year, which usually helps players play at their peak as well if he wants to have a long and lucrative NFL career.

Gino Stone, on the other hand, I agree. And it's funny because I think the Bengals overcorrected a bit. They're like, yeah, we got Jesse Bates. He's this great, rangy-free safety. This is great. Draft Dex Hill. And, oh, he can't do that. This is a shocker, which shouldn't have been.

But Nick Scott can't do it either because he didn't do that either. So they were like, okay, let's get Gino, Stone, who has done some of this at Baltimore, has made some plays doing some of this, but Baltimore had a very safety-friendly defense. We see Mike McDonald leaves and goes to Seattle, and Marcus Williams swallows off the map in Baltimore as well. But Gino Stone, they're like, okay, go play free safety. And that's it. That's all we want you to do.

And you're wondering at times watching those games, like, why is Stone just standing there? I think they wanted them just to be the deep last man standing on this defense. So they weren't killed with explosive plays again the way they were the previous year. when Dax and Nick Scott were back there. And it turned into just him looking like a statue and being hesitant far too often. And I think you need to mix it up. I think he can be an effective blitzer. I think he can come down and play the box, be the robber safety if you want.

But that means who is the other guy that can go back and play that? Is it Jordan Battle? Battle has. Battle did it at Alabama. He did it his rookie season when they were trying to figure out what Dax was. You watched those final four games again from 2023 when it was Dax and Jordan Battle. and Dax was actually playing the strong safety slot and battle was going back and playing the free safety.

Dex was really good at that. That's where I thought they'd end up playing him. But Battle can do it, and he had a lot of experience doing it, Alabama. So if you get him locked in as well, I think these are three guys that if you get them focused and playing the right way and playing intelligent, hungry football from the start, you can really shake up and make this secondary much better. Yeah, the amount of investment in the secondary in general is, I mean,

the defense on the whole, I was going to say just a secondary, It's actually everywhere. The amount of investment in recent years on the defense, you got first round pick in 2022 in Dax Hill, second round pick in 2022 in Cam Taylor-Breda, third round pick in Jordan Battle in 2023, and a second round pick in DJ Turner in 2023. And the free agent acquisition in Gino Stone,

like all of these guys are guys that they've gone out and prioritized and spent premium draft capital or free agent resources on, to some degree, at least, for Gino Stone. And so I think where that's, dovetails into the development conversation is Al Golden's top development priorities, right? And so, like, DJ Turner, Dax Hill, I think both those guys are good players. It'll be really interesting to see where Dax lands from a positional perspective because if Cam Taylor-Brit's going to start and DJ Turner's going to start and Dax Hill's going to start

because those are your three best corners, where are you lining those guys up? And I've made the argument several times that Dax could step into a Leon Hall role where he's outside on base downs, which are going to be few and far between, kicks in to nickel, inside corner, DJ Turner comes onto the field in the nickel package, or Camp Taylor Britt, whichever one of those guys is going to be your CB3 out of those three, depending on how that shakes out. But for Turner and Dax Hill, it's largely like yesterday was in Orlando Brown and T. Higgins' point, get through the season healthy, bigger injuries for those guys, where they both missed the remainder

of the season with an ACL and the collarbone issue. But staying on the field for those players can go a long way and get. giving us a full picture of who they can be over the course of a full season because I think both of them can be good. Both of them showed significant improvement last year. So those guys are huge development priorities in my mind the way Jordan Battle is and the way a lot of these guys that have been added in the last couple of years in the front seven are. And some rookies specifically, Demetrius Knight and Barrett Carter, Samar Stewart, Miles Murphy, not a rookie, but in this conversation of really important development pieces,

also second year players with Kinley Jackson, Chris Jenkins. I think that group of players, the rookie second round players in the front seven, Jordan Battle as a guy who is probably stepping into his best shot as a starter in year three at this point, but has played a lot of football. And you're just looking for consistency there, right? Those guys stand out to me as your development priorities. if you're Al Golden and your defensive coaching staff with the Cincinnati Bengals. So let's finish the show by talking through those developmental priorities for the Cincinnati Bengals.

And what these guys need to do to help this defense get back to a place where it's stable and not just a total liability like we saw in 2024, because that's going to go a long way for the Bengals and winning games in 2025. We'll do that to finish the show next. All right, Joe, I gave you a lot of players there to think about. But let's finish out the second. of a Jordan battle from a development perspective and then get to the front seven. When we talk about development for Jordan Battle, what comes to mind?

I think it's consistency in terms of knowing his responsibility. And maybe that is just a Lou issue. Because when we saw Battle play really well as a rookie, they were also pairing down that defense. Again, Lou did this two years in row when they were not making the playoffs or at least at the cutting edge in 2023 and 2024. And they had to play a lot of these young guys and they rebound. did the dead cat bounce two years in a row. So we saw battle play really good.

And then we saw battle start to get mixed in halfway or a quarter of the way into the season last year. And they're on tape, but you'd see like five snaps and then he wouldn't appear anymore. And then watching on tape, you go, oh, it's because he really bit on that crossing route. And Lou hated that. So like, can you get him to consistently know what he's doing and do it at a high level and be in great shape to start this year, which I think was an issue with him last year as well? So as a player, I think he's, the flashes we've seen are close to what he will be,

but can you get him to do it more often, which is the definition and consistency. So for battle, I think that's an easy one. But forward, I think it's different. And I do think, yeah, just for battle, I think part of it is just like let him, like they didn't have the patience with him. Like it would be those five plays like he said, and then, you know, you're yanking him, but he needs to stay on the field. And I think that's the opportunity he has this year.

Obviously, you'd like him to not be making those mistakes. If you're thinking those are simple mental mistakes, maybe this is Louana Ramos' perspective on him and why he's coming off pretty quickly at times last year. But obviously, the physicality he brings is a tackler in the run game. And when he does make those high-end plays, all of that is in his game as well. And so if he has more opportunities to show that he can do those things,

you'll see more of those plays. Consistency, name of the game, for defense in general, in the NFL. Like just do your job as consistently as possible, and you will have the most stable defense you can imagine. And it's hard to do that. If it was easy to do that, everyone would do that, right? It sounds easy.

It's an easy concept, but actually doing it when offenses are doing everything they can to make you wrong, it's a hard job. But I think I'm excited to see if Jordan Battle does grasp this thing and get the full opportunity, how much more often we see those flashes and that level of play from him. Yeah, I agree, because after that rookie year, like, based on PFF grades,

I'm bringing it up. And, like, these are the top rookies over the last 10 years or so at PFF at safety, and battle was amongst them, and they were all good players. So the Bengals really may have shot themselves in the foot by not investing and letting battle be the unquestioned starter and get that development last year, because you need these young pieces to develop and become those players for you. And now we're kind of questioning or hoping he can get back there. But I think if we're saying, like, prior,

prioritizing development and what is a key one for Al and this defense in 2025 and beyond. The linebacker room is a large conversation because you spent premium picks. I mean, that's the conversation. We just said this with secondary defensive line, but also you spent a second and a fourth at linebacker, which is as high as you should draft linebackers in that range and where they've had success with Jermaine Pratt and Logan Wilson and, you know, as third rounders. But second, fourth, Demetrius Knight needs to come in and play well. And there's a reasonable expectation that he does and hope that he does.

And if he does and you upgrade from Jermaine Pratt, which I think is one of the few areas where they may have upgraded this year, if night is good, could make a big impact on your defense. Working linebackers can come in and make a big impact. They can play well. Can, and it seems like Al Golden's specialty is that position. Can you get Knight in there? Can you get them to make positive plays? And then Barrett Carter wasn't too far from. Demetris Knight on their board. I know they hoped for night so much and, you know, they made

such a big deal out of it, but they also really like Carter. And I made the tweet at the time, there's reasonable sum of outcomes. One of the, and, you know, alternate universes is that Carter is a better player than Knight in three years. That could happen. It happens around the league all the time. And watching Carter already, going back and watching him after their draft, watching them, how fluid he moves, how quickly moves. That could. be an asset to your defense. I think coaches see that stuff when they get their hands on these guys and they go, oh, I can find a role for that and figure out how that guy gets on the field. And if that's the case, you can get an impact from both these rookies pretty quickly.

I'm excited to see if it happens and how big of an impact it is or if we're dealing with rookie issues next to Logan Wilson or rotating with Logan Wilson or whatever it is. But that is a position to talk about. I think that you're hitting the nail on the head when you say they need to get that development. that is one of the biggest priorities in addition to, I think, Samar Stewart and Miles Murphy and that, I mean, all of the defensive linemen. It's hard to actually delineate,

which is the most important thing because of defensive line really needs to take that step. But because of the investment, I think that's what makes it so important that they get high-level play out of these linebackers. Because you spent the second round pick, because you doubled it, and went back to linebacker at the beginning of day three

with the last of your, you know, reasonably early picks in the draft before you get to the fifth and six, you're talking about late round picks at that point. Getting those guys to make impactful differences to your defense early on is pretty ideal. It's hard. It's hard for rookie linebackers to come in and hit the ground running and be great right away, but it's doable. And so whether that's the steady presence of Logan Wilson,

if they can get him to get back to the pro-bowlish level that we've seen, him play at throughout his career at times and the do-it-all kind of guy that he can be getting that level of play and finding a role for Barrett Carter like you're talking about, like finding a way that Barrett Carter can make an impact. If they can do that, then you're paying dividends with those picks that you invested in the 2025 draft. But maybe saving the most important thing here for last, I mean, I think a lot of these veterans in the secondary certainly critical that we've talked about so far.

We've talked about the linebackers, but can you get some of our student on the football field for one? And for two, what does he look like as a rookie? How much can you get done with him in preparation for the 2025 season and throughout the 2025 season? How much can you get done with Miles Murphy from a technical improvement perspective, from a past rush plan perspective? How much can you get done with McKinley Jackson and Chris Jenkins in terms of getting those guys to fulfill the roles that we're going. were envisioned for them when they were drafted and how of those roles changed in terms of the vision for them with Al Golden replacing Louana Ruma? Yeah, I think you're getting the nail on the head with all those guys and what it is.

And you can add Joseph Osai and Cam Sample, still kind of unanswered questions on investments they've made at those positions. Both guys that they could play a role on this team, especially if they're going to go light at defensive tackle, maybe heavier at D.N. Those are two guys that can kick inside, add in Shmar Stewart as well. so maybe those three guys, those trio are active and making an impact that way. But you're right, to me, I'm looking right at Miles Murphy. I think this is his best chance to carve out a sizable role on the team.

And it stinks that they drafted Shamar Stewart for him because that probably had to have been a hit to his psyche, like, man, that's another guy in front of me now, potentially that I have to fight with snaps. Looks like he's in the best shape of his life. Looks like he's training and trying to figure out the past fresh plan stuff based on social media posts, which I mean, they are what they are. But it's good to see that he looks. He looks, I mean, even in the clips and videos we see, he looks cut and lean.

It could be really big for him. But the pass rush plan is a big part of it. And he's never was that natural pass rusher even in college. And same way we criticized Shemar Stewart. There's a lot of parallels there, even if Murphy had better production to an extent, never looked like as fluid and as a confident and a rusher with a plan. But can one of these guys step up and do that? or is it, here's how you get better at that position.

You have more athleticism. You have hungrier players. You have more of a rotation, which is an issue I thought we had with Sam Hubbard, especially the last couple of years. We were saying, why is Hubbard even on the field in these situations? They're out there in a full pass rush package,

and Hubbard's out there. Like, one of these guys does not make sense to be on the field in third and seven plus here, and Hubbard's not even kicked inside, which I thought there was something he could have done. I don't think Hubbard wanted to move around as much as we always envisioned he could. I think he was maybe,

a roadblock and some of that. So now you have guys that maybe you can play both sides. Maybe you can move them inside, kick them inside, whatever you want to call it, and get more production. Maybe it's more of a NASCAR package. And we see four defensive vans out there. That could get me excited. You know, even the idea, they're not great players, but they're athletes. They're young and they're hungry. And I'm moving them in different positions where now maybe that that agility for like a Miles Murphy or Schmar Stewart isn't an issue inside because you're going against guards. You're going against guys that aren't as long as you are, aren't as quick as you are. And you can create advantages there.

And then, of course, we have to talk about Chris Jenkins and McKinley Jackson because they didn't add a defensive tackle or a pass rushing defensive tackle to this room. Can one of those guys become a penetrator or be a pass rusher? They didn't have the profiles of it coming out of college. So now we're hoping for them to achieve something that maybe is on the slim upside for them of outplaying or being an outlier. But to me, I think Chris Jenkins can be.

maybe a low-end Christian Wilkins type of player. And Wilkins is a guy who gets about four sacks a year. And if he even scratched a bit of that, that's a huge boost to this defense. But they are really taking a big risk at defensive tackle as we stand here. Now they absolutely, we talked about it would be nice if a lot of these guys developed. They absolutely need more out of Chris Jenkins or McKinley, Kinley Jackson, at least one of them to become a contributing defensive tackle number three. That DT3 plays starter snaps, one of the.

needs to be good. Well, they're going to play a ton in this Bengals defense because T.J. Slate is not going to be on the field in a majority of clear passing situations. And that's where they're going to figure out, is it BJ Hill and a CAM sample or a kicked inside Sam Stewart or Joseph Osai? And they'll have to figure out those packages. But on the mixed downs, when Chris Jenkins is out there or McKinley Jackson is out there when it's a first in 10 or a second and six, where you're getting one or the other, getting more production out of those players in those situations and getting a second year step from the game slowing down for Chris Jenkins and McKinley Jackson.

And I think we started to see that late in the season for McKinley Jackson, getting that to parlay into a more productive 2025 and anchoring the front of that defense, that goes a long way where the run defense was a few. huge problem for them last year. They're expecting T.J. Slayton to come and help with that by being just an actual nose tackle and not being forced to play guys out of position there. But McKinley Jackson has a body to do that too. So is he going to be a versatile piece who can stand up to double teams when he needs to a nose tackle and also be a penetrator when he gets opportunities to rush a pass around mixed downs? Because, you know, I went back and I watched

Matravius Adams when he was a potential signing for the Bengals. And that one didn't end up working out. but a lot of his pressures come when he's head up over the center, and it reminded me of McKinley Jackson and the way McKinley Jackson won. And so not the Montraevis Adams is necessarily the standard to which you should aspire if you're McKinley Jackson, but stylistically, if you can look at the way that he wins when he's head up over his center and the way that he plays as a stunter and he's a bit smaller, but plays up to his athleticism,

McKinley Jackson could take that stuff. And then for Chris Jenkins and while we're here, pet sims is the guy that always, did that as well. And for a Bengals fan, that maybe knows him better. That's who I think McKinley Jackson can be. Yeah.

And I think a little bit more explosive. I mean, Pat Sims was agile. They called him dancing bear, right? But yeah, a little bit more explosiveness, I think, potentially for McKinley Jackson. And then Chris Jenkins, I wonder if they can get him to be that, you know, for Sacky your kind of player. Because, like you said, that would go such a long way just to have that

three last year. Production. Yeah. The pressure to sack ratio quite high. Consistency, correct. I would imagine, because not creating a ton of pressures. So really, that's probably what we're looking for, is that disruptive piece who can flush pressures into the arms of the edge rushers

from a draft capital perspective and a Trey Hendrickson perspective, assuming he's around are the strength of the team. And on the topic of Trey, just to close things out here, assuming that he's around, I wonder how willing he would be to move around. Because if you're talking about Trey Hendrickson and the way we talked about the stars, Jamar Chase and Joe Burrow getting better on offense and finding marginal improvement. I think if Trey Hendrickson is willing to move around a little bit, that's where you can find the marginal improvements for Trey.

Say there's a juicy matchup against the opposing team's right tackle, and you don't like the left tackle matchup quite as much because the left tackle is maybe Trent Williams or something. I don't know. I'm not talking about the Lions. That's Pena Soule on the right side. But you get what I'm saying here. Yeah.

If you can find a matchup to let Trey go to work on somebody, the way Chris Jones will move around for the Chiefs and take whatever weakest link he wants to attack on a given play, that could be a way that Trey Hendrickson can squeeze a little bit more out of his season, where he can beat up on good tackles. We've seen it from time to time. We've seen him take it to good tackles in the NFL. But if you can get him against a bad tackle for 10 plays a game

instead of maybe a half play a game on average. He doesn't say, would they play that card three times last year? Yeah, like he hardly moved. that could be a way to squeeze a little bit more out of this pass rush rotation as well. Yeah, and I'm with you on all that. And right, we're talking margins for Trey Hendrickson, getting in the camp, getting him here, getting him happy. Could be a big thing to making sure and ensuring you get that, but also could give reps to these young guys while he's not there.

We'll see if that's beneficial or not. Didn't really help them last year when all these DNs were getting hurt and defensive tackles were getting hurt. And it really didn't help the progression for these, Well, Jackson and McKinley Jackson, they started the year as well. So I guess they were in that group. And so was Miles Murphy. Forget about that.

That may have affected Murphy for a while. So getting a full camp for a lot of these guys, especially those three. And then hopefully Hendrickson could go a long way in their development. Yeah. Just getting a good camping. Not getting nicked up in camp, like you're saying. I mean, that certainly contributed to some slow starts where Miles Murphy did play better down the stretch and did play better when he was healthy.

and it's getting through those early weeks, you know, those dog days of the summer, getting out of that period healthy. That's a big deal. And it's not something that's easy to control. It's not something you can predict. It's why they take it easy, though, sometimes. And people get on them, but, like, health is huge.

It's also, like, a criticism of the depth that they've built, especially on the interior. You deal with an injury there, and you're right back to where you were in week one, week two last year, where you got guys that are no longer in the NFL. no longer on your team. And that's who you're running out there to start on the interior. Hopefully they don't have to deal with that this year.

But getting health, adding a player on the defensive interior, these are some things they can do to help as well. But Al Golden, obviously, work cut out from here from a structure perspective, buying perspective, getting guys to understand what you're trying to achieve perspective, and then development, finding roles for certain guys. A lot of young players, a lot of premium picks. Al Golden was hired to get the most out of those guys, and that's his job for 2025.

You can find Joe's work, like I said, on Bengals on the Brain over on the first show logistics media page on YouTube where he'll have film breakdowns for you, a couple of shows a week there. You can subscribe to him on Twitter as well at Joe Goodberry on Twitter. That's going to do it for this episode of the Locktime Bengals podcast. Until next time, thanks for listening. Ho day and have a good one.