Locked On Bengals - Daily Podcast On The Cincinnati Bengals - Did NFL Combine Shake Up the Bengals' Options At #10?

Starting point is 00:00:00 Surprising perhaps no one, the Cincinnati Bengals spent a lot of their combine interviews talking to defensive linemen. Let's get into it. You are locked on Bengals, your daily Cincinnati Bengals podcast. Part of the Locked on Podcast Network, your team every day. What up, Bengals fans, and welcome to another episode of the Lockdown Bengals podcast. Part of the Lockdown Podcast Network, your team every day in the number one sports podcast network in the land. He's Jens Rapine. I'm Jake Lisco.

Starting point is 00:00:35 and we've had you covered here on lockdown Bengals every day going all the way back to 2016. Your best one-stop shop for all things Bengals online. And today, as the Combine is starting to wrap up or has wrapped up, rather, we're going to start working our way through the various position groups that the Bengals spent a lot of time and paid a lot of attention to in Indianapolis. And of course, there are interesting results across the board. And that includes linebacker and safety, which we're not going to get to today,

Starting point is 00:01:06 but we're going to start in the order that the combine did with the big guys on defense, the defensive linemen, and the Bengals did spend a lot of time talking to those guys in Indianapolis. We'll get you some of the more notable names that the Bengals talked to and some of the more notable storylines coming out of Indianapolis is Ruben Bain didn't end up testing, but we did get an arm measurement. And Peter Woods, who I think I said in an episode last week, James,

Starting point is 00:01:30 I was really excited to see him test. He didn't test. So that's a bummer. for me and everyone, I think, but did weigh in and did meet with the Bengals. So we'll have a little bit to say about Peter Woods as well as we focus in on the defensive line and how that syncs up with what Al Golden told local media he's looking for on this defense and a really interesting conversation that he had with you guys in Indianapolis last week as well. So that's what we're doing today. FanDul is a sponsor of today's episode, giving you a way to turn your energy into bigger potential wins with a college basketball parlay. profit boost. Head to fandal.com to get started. James, the unsurprising thing about this week is that the Bengals want some defensive lines.

Starting point is 00:02:15 And they spent a lot of time paying attention to this group in Indianapolis. There were some surprises, of course, to come out of Indy this week or last week, I guess. But what was the top story for you as you were tracking the defensive line and the Bengals interest therein at the Combine last week? Yeah, I think part of it, you mentioned it. Peter Woods is a major factor. We know for a fact, the Bengals want to address their interior pass rush. That's why they signed Sheldon Rankins a few years ago. They were like, we need to be better on the interior. That didn't work. Last year, we know they were in on defensive tackle in the first round. Walter Nolan, Kenneth Grant, two guys that were off the board by the time they picked at 17. There was interest there. And you could debate whether or not both. of those guys give you the juice you're looking for us, past archers, by the way. But that's what they want. And so it does start for me with Peter Woods. Because it's somebody that's really, really intriguing from a production, age, athleticism, how he was used, all of those things that

Starting point is 00:03:21 are some question marks and how he answered them on the podium. But then more importantly, how he answered them in the meeting with the Bengals, he feels like he would still, at least as of today as we're entering the month of March and it is a boy oh boy how big of a month is this for the bengal's organization right so they i highly doubt that they've ruled out the idea of peter woods being a bengal at number 10 so just throw that out there take it run with it do whatever but the other thing in the the elephant in the room is the the reuben bane scenario and we knew his arms were going to be short. They were short.

Starting point is 00:04:06 And I think that has impacted the way some think that this first 10 picks could play out or the first nine picks ahead of the Bengals could play out. And that can only be a good thing for the Bengals, Ruben Bain potentially being there at 10. That doesn't mean that they're going to pick him if he's there. Maybe they have Peter Woods, wank, well ahead of him. Maybe they have one of these other defensive linemen ranked well ahead of him, David Bailey, who we could talk about or whoever else. But two things.

Starting point is 00:04:34 One, Ruben Bain, it felt like he'd be long gone entering the combine when the Bengals are on the clock at 10. And maybe that's not the case. And two, we know that they're just, they're in the desert right now praying for Gatorade when it comes to the defensive tackle spot. They want some pass rush juice. They don't have it right now. And so Peter Woods and any of these other interior pass rushers, they will be looking

Starting point is 00:04:58 no stone unturned at all of them. Interesting that you use a Gatorade drink specifically because there is a Florida Gator that we will be talking about. How about that? I didn't think about that. Look at that. Yes. Yeah, just a little Freudian Gatorade there. So Clemsonson's Pro Day is coming up on March 12th. And hopefully Peter Woods does testing then. If he doesn't, I don't know what's going on. He'll probably do private workouts if he doesn't. But I assume he'll do his testing then. That's only about two weeks away, less than two weeks away. Miami for Ruben Bain isn't until later in March. It's 11 days later, I believe, March 23rd.

Starting point is 00:05:36 So for Rubin Bain, who we're going to want to see the on-field testing, ideally we would have seen some of this stuff in Indianapolis, some of the other participants in the national championship game, notably DeAngelo Pons, did go through his workout. So not such an excuse that you can point to, but Ruben Bain often not to this week. and so hopefully we'll get that full picture of his athleticism at his pro day in Miami later this month. But it's a bit of a shame that Peter Wood didn't test.

Starting point is 00:06:10 I think that his ceiling in the draft is probably the Bengals that picked 10. I'd be pretty floored if anyone picked Peter Woods ahead of the Bengals at this point, given the way that he's being discussed by various national media members, the way that his combine went. it was pointed out to me by our friend Joe Goberry that Mel Kiper talked about, I believe it was Mel Kiper talked about Peter Woods because he saw all of his peers dropping Peter Woods into the 30s or late 20s on their respective draft boards. So he started calling his NFL sources and according to Kiper, they kind of scoffed at it

Starting point is 00:06:46 and still see Peter Woods as a first round guy. So I know for a fact that Dame Bruegler is also talking to NFL sources and that is part of his process as well. And I think when you listen to Dane talk specifically rather than just looking at his big board or reading the beast when it comes out, he talks about, yeah, the NFL saw this guy a little bit differently than I did. So you'll hear some of those insights then. But I did find it interesting that the entire industry of draft media dropped Peter was

Starting point is 00:07:19 to roughly the same spot. And then Mel Kuyper came out and said, you know what? I talked to some teams and they still see him as a first round guy. I think they do need to see him test. I think we do need to see Ruben Bain test because it would be unprecedented for arms his short to be drafted in the top 10. Now, does that mean that he's going to suddenly be a terrible player in the NFL

Starting point is 00:07:39 because he has short arms? No, do the Bengals have a history of drafting guys and signing guys with short arms of their position? Yes, are they thinking about extending one this offseason and DJ Turner? I know it's a different position, but yes, they are. So I don't think that Ruben Bain is eliminated, for them. And I think if he does make it to 10, you said, you don't know if they'd pick him there.

Starting point is 00:07:59 I think there'd be a pretty dang good shot. They would pick Ruben Bain, James, if he makes it to them at 10. They're looking for guys, and this came from Al Golden. Maybe we dig into this next. They're looking for guys who can win their one on once. And that is part of what you get or what you're hoping you get if you draft Ruben Bain. Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree there. And I thought Ruben handled it pretty well when asked about it because some athletes, it's like, I don't want to talk about this or that. And he didn't go full Joe Burrow and say, I'm going to retire because my hands are small type scenario.

Starting point is 00:08:37 I wish you had. That's part of it, right? And look, Ruben Bain stuck out to me when I watched Miami. I think he's disruptive. I think he can help the Bengals. When I pick him at 10, sure I would. I just don't want to guarantee that the Bengals will because I just, I don't know. No. Do I think they like him?

Starting point is 00:08:54 Yes. That's part of the combine. And now that I'm back and I'm rested and I can reflect on things, I know the Bengals like Ruben Bain, LePler. Do they like him enough to take him at 10 if he's there? It would be nice if he tested. We'll get to Ruben Bain's comments and continue this conversation. And you're right. You got to do the athletic tested, baby.

Starting point is 00:09:11 It's a top 10 pick. You can't take a player that can't do the athletic testing because you got to pass those tests to be a top 10 pick in the NFL draft. That would be certainly something, a threshold that I, I would have if I'm the Bengals, we'll continue the conversation with Ruben Bain Jr's comments coming up next. Today's show is brought to you by Fandall. Fandall is America's number one sportsbook and college hoops is nonstop. It's been a tough year for my Cincinnati Bearcats, but college hoops has been a lot of fun. The Miami Red Hawks still undefeated big games, tight spreads.

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Starting point is 00:11:36 Again, that's ND dot com slash podcast. Terms the conditions apply. If you need to hire, that's a job for Indeed sponsor jobs. All right, Jake, let's get to Ruben Bain's comments because he was obviously asked about arm length. He said, quote, none of the teams seem too concerned with it as long as I talk the talk. walk the walk and play with technique. Nobody really asked me about it. I really don't give the kind of time of day for it.

Starting point is 00:12:02 That's the stuff I feel like you see on social media. None of the teams had concerns, so I'm not too concerned. I hope the first nine teams are concerned. Because if Ruben Maine's there, it's going to be really hard to pass on them, like you said. And to just double down to multiple different people, I put it like this. The Bengals like Ruben May. it would be great if he tested well enough for them to to be like oh yeah he he's our guy at 10 but not too great to where he's going to the jets at 2 find a way to get to 10 it would be great

Starting point is 00:12:35 I by the way as this combine week was playing out we had Mike renter on in January and he was still like he does this lives and breez lists all year long but still early from a big board standpoint and stuff from a, you know, pre-combine big board being set. What did he talk about? He talked about deep linebackers and how Ruben Bain was the second best player on his board. He clearly nailed the linebacker part of it. The Ruben Bain part of it, hey, fall to 10. That'd be great because the Bengals, they would get that pass rushers they really need.

Starting point is 00:13:09 This is maybe a bigger conversation for another day, but since you brought up linebacker, I tweeted sometime late in the week last week, what's the biggest combine hot takeover reaction we could have? And one of the two examples, one of them was Dylan Theeman ahead of Caleb Dunes. That would be a pretty big hot takeover reaction, right? Dylan Theateman, I think for a lot of people, he's a baller. He's a baller. He worked his way into their knowledge and was like, oh, yeah, this guy is really good.

Starting point is 00:13:33 He's definitely going to be picked in the first round. And I shouldn't say that so declaratively, but that's the way it seems to be going. Now, I think you're... The other one was Sunny Stiles is going to be picked ahead of Rubin Bain. And everyone that replied me was like, you sure that's a hot take? You sure that's an overreaction? I think that teams knew that Sunny Stiles was going to be a free athlete. I think the teams knew that Ruben Bain's arms are going to be short.

Starting point is 00:13:59 And we would love to see Ruben test. Don't get me wrong. Until he tests, that that's a big hole in his profile. But assuming he tests like, I don't know, a decent athlete, I don't think he's going to go test necessarily like David Bailey, especially in the 40 because David Bailey looks faster on tape to me. We'll see what Ruben Bain does or doesn't do. I do still think, and again, this is a bigger conversation, teams really care about the financial cost of draft fix and the surplus financial value that you can get on some really expensive positions.

Starting point is 00:14:33 Because if you're drafted at number two or whatever, you're on a $50 million contract. And if you're a quarterback, a $50 million contract for four years is a whole lot different than if you're a linebacker and you're on a $50 million contract for four years. I think I looked at it and if Sonny Stiles were drafted second because I think I heard some people saying that that's his ceiling second, he would be already the eighth highest paid linebacker in the NFL. That stuff does matter to teams. Whereas Ruben Bain, if he's drafted early, is like the, I don't know, 20 something, 30 something highest paid defensive end in the NFL. Like that surplus value really matters, especially for a team like the Bengals that is dealing with a second quarterback contract and has big capital. allocations for some of the stars already on the team. They need to find cost surplus good players really badly.

Starting point is 00:15:29 And that's a big part of what they're going to be thinking about at number 10. Yeah. That and because they're going to be spending on this deep, like it would be great for them to have a cost-controlled option as well because it's going to be built with a lot of free agents or guys' second contract corners, hopefully and that's it and so yeah it would be really beneficial that's a good point by the way i don't believe maybe this is a take sunny style should not go ahead of reuben pain it's a take we're going to have comments get in the comments you think sunny styles is getting drafted ahead of

Starting point is 00:16:05 reuben bay let's get it on record right now and by the way he might he might but for the bengals which one would i want well one's deeper than the other in this draft mentioned the linebackers there's so There's one. There's a lot of them. My goodness, there's a lot of linebackers. There's a lot. Again, it's unbelievable.

Starting point is 00:16:24 It's unbelievable how they've done this. Hey, it's a weird year for wide receivers, double dip. Weird year for tight ends, double dip. Weird year for linebackers, double dip. Feels like a reach, at least on the first one. Barrett didn't feel like a reach necessarily, but like just, they kill me. But when it comes to pick 10,

Starting point is 00:16:45 and this is just me. And I want a game-changing player. That's it. That's it. It's really hard to find that, but that's where I start. And if it was picked 28, that's where I would start too.

Starting point is 00:17:02 So it's not like it's just, oh, well, it's pick 10, so you target that. It should be easier at 10 than 28, but that's what I look at. And then, if you feel like you have two game-changing players, do I take into positional value

Starting point is 00:17:14 into account or need or whatever? fine, that's fine. But man, does it start there? And it does feel like Rubin Bain may fall because of his arm length. But I said before we started record, I think the Bengals could get a hell of a player at 10. And for a draft that didn't sound top heavy and you got analysts and it'd be better to be picking 25th than sixth in this draft, no, I feel pretty good about 10 because there's going to be some guys that are overthought. and teams overthinking and you're going to look

Starting point is 00:17:48 and if the Bengals get the right guy, they're going to get a guy that's going to help them in a big way. Yeah. I can say that for any draft, especially true, the earlier you pick. And it's going to come down to, I think,

Starting point is 00:18:00 how many offensive tackles, corners, and wide receivers are picked one through nine is going to dictate how deep the pool of options is for the Cincinnati Bengals at 10. Because I do, do think they're probably entirely out of the market, probably for those wide receivers.

Starting point is 00:18:21 We'll talk about this more another day, I'm sure. Probably not in the market for those wide receivers. Probably not as interested in the tackles, given that none of them played left tackle most recently. And Maui Noah might be a guard in the NFL. And apparently that G is pronounced as an N. Yep, it is. I learned this week.

Starting point is 00:18:40 But all these other positions that they might target, I think that's what you're looking at. from one to nine. Now, back to the topic of hands and some of the defensive linemen here, just some of the other edge guys they met with before we talked about the interior guys they met with because they met a whole lot of interior guys.

Starting point is 00:18:55 They very clearly want to address the interior defensive line. I think they're going to address the defense line with multiple players in this offseason, and I think that's probably their baseline expectation as well. But they met with Ruben Bain, David Bailey, Keldrick Falk, all of whom have been discussed as potential picks at 10 at some point or another.

Starting point is 00:19:16 And Danny Dennis Sutton from Penn State, who went out and had awesome testing as well. And Danny Dennis Sutton, Denise Sutton is going to be a guy that could be considered if they don't get one of those guys in the first round. And I'm not sure there will be like a perfect option in the second round. They don't have meetings that we've heard about yet anyway with guys like Akim Mesedor, T.J. Parker, R. Mason, Thomas, Zion Young, gave Akis. or Derek Moore from Michigan. Those are other guys that are on my radar. Malachi Lawrence from UCF also had a nice little combine for himself. So those are some guys to watch as well.

Starting point is 00:19:55 But they did meet with all those potential number tens, including Keldrick Falk, who I think is somebody that we'll talk about more another day and David Bailey, who it'll be really interesting to see how consensus changes. Because as of pre-combine, Ruben Bain's consensus opinion was a couple picks higher than David Bailey and very interested to see if that changes or not in the wake

Starting point is 00:20:20 of potential overreactions or correct reactions somewhere in the middle to this NFL combine. A bunch of defensive tackles, though, also on the Bengals radar, in addition to what Al Golden is looking for from these guys, we'll finish the show they're coming up next. Today's show is brought to by GameTime. Game

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Starting point is 00:21:48 James Rapine. Bengals spent a lot of time with these guys, not a particularly excellent draft class. There are some interesting guys. Don't get me wrong. And I think the Bengals didn't meet with some guys that I find interesting at least.

Starting point is 00:22:03 So I don't take issue with the guys they met with and they met with a lot of them. But when you kind of mess up who they met with, what Al Golden said. And we talked about this with the defensive ends, right? They're looking for guys who can win one-on-ones. I think they're pretty happy with T.J. Slate, and they're pretty happy with BJ Hill.

Starting point is 00:22:23 That's what it sounded like. And they're looking for maybe more of a three-tech kind of guys. Some guys that can go win when they might be able to get one-on-ones and need guys that can win those one-on-ones. What do you think? Am I on the right track here as far as the cross-section? That's why they signed Rankins. I mean, think about that.

Starting point is 00:22:44 Like, this is multiple years in the making. where they viewed it that way and say what you want about reader. They should have just kept reader and then sign Rankin, but they didn't do that. And they were like, we could use pass rush on the interior. And that didn't work out. Last year, I think in the draft,

Starting point is 00:23:02 that's what they were looking for. And part of why you go after Rankins is you don't know if you're going to get it in the draft. And so before we dive into these guys, hey, Bengals, if you really want to address it, you better address it next week. You better address it when the,

Starting point is 00:23:17 the legal tampering period opens and maybe it's John Franklin Myers, maybe it's someone lower than that, but like it's, it's hard to find these guys. And if you can, and if you can get some interior pressure, well, that's what Joe Burrow hates the most. The edge presser, Miles Garrett on the edge is a nightmare. He's much worse if he's coming at you on the interior. Jeffrey Simmons, there's a reason why I think you and me both would prioritize him if they were just randomly available in a free agent draft, let's say. I would take Jeffrey Simmons over Max Crosby every time. Game wrecker up the middle, super valuable, hard to find.

Starting point is 00:23:56 And so the draft going to where is their best chance of finding that potential game record, but it's still obviously really, really easier said than done. Yeah, I do wonder if they're going to go spend at the top end of the defensive tackle free agent market, not that there's a whole lot there. But I wonder if they will be interested in John Franklin Myers. I wonder what they think of Logan Hall, who is the most interesting lower dollar potential name, but also would shock no one, given where the NFL seems to be on Logan Hall, if he just goes back to Tampa on a one-year prove-a-deal, and there's not a market for him.

Starting point is 00:24:31 Don't do it. But the Bengals met with Peter Woods. They also met with Caleb Banks and Caden McDonald, who all could be first-round players. They went with Christian Miller, who we drafted in a mock draft Monday, not too long ago, the Georgia defensive tackle, going to be just shy of 22 on the day of the draft. He's expected to be drafted early in the second round. So right around the Bengal second round pick.

Starting point is 00:24:55 They also met with University of Cincinnati star and fan favorite, Dante Corleone. They met with Ole Miss defensive tackle, looks like more of a nose tackle kind of player, Xavier Harris. And they met with Zane Durant, who is one of the more fascinating mid-round options, Zane Durant from Penn State, from what I recall he had a really nice combine and had pretty dang good production at Penn State.

Starting point is 00:25:25 So again, I'm intrigued with the names that they chose to meet with between Christian Miller, Zane Durant, Dante Corleone for the mid-round guys. And I wonder where they are on Caleb Banks. Because Caleb Banks went out there and was huge and jumped high. And for his size at, what was he, 327, ran a 5 second 40. It's pretty dang reasonable for that size. And then you just have to figure out the production questions and the tape questions with him. But a player that has been mocked to the Bengals of 10 in Caleb Banks, I really wonder

Starting point is 00:26:06 where they're going to come down on that one. That's going to be one of the bigger questions for us leading into the draft. Yeah, it is. It is. And you look at it and it's like, size check, power check, you know, athleticism check, will they go that route or will they look at the age? Will they look at the production? Will they look at the health history? Do they like his attitude? Do they think he's coachable? Do they think that he's that game wrecker? Do they think that the potential is there? And a defensive tackle, Like it is so hard to find them that if you think that the potential is there, then maybe you do look that way.

Starting point is 00:26:49 Maybe he's a guy that would be considered a trade down candidate, not necessarily at 10. But if you think he's that guy, then you just take him at 10. The question is, is he that guy? Is he clearly better than a Peter Woods? Like those are real questions. And it's tough. it's tough because the scary part would would be that feels like a huge dice roll and he just might not be that guy and I'm not sure what he'd really be able to do pre-draft to show that he's that guy

Starting point is 00:27:24 nothing and and so and so it would literally be all right well we'll see you in September go wreck games and like oh you You know, like, so that's the scary part if they don't spend in free agency at that spot is they may look around and say, now, I do know that they feel like that there's some depth at defensive tackle, that there are guys. In free agency? No, no, in the draft. In the draft, okay. That they could look at and be like, oh, well, this guy could help us.

Starting point is 00:27:58 Talked about Zane Durant. Talked about Dante Corley-up. And so maybe that's it. And Duran is very intriguing to me. as someone who can do that. I think, by the way, Ruben Bain, I think, would kick inside at times. I'm not saying he's going to be that. But I bet you their plan would be to kick him inside here and there.

Starting point is 00:28:18 Yeah, I wonder what that would look like if you have Bain, Stuart, and Murphy as part of your third down package, because Shemar Stewart was kicking inside for them last year, and I think he would continue to do so as well. And Rubin Bain's really good with some runway. Like a lot of his success comes when he's lined up outside the tackle, wide nine kind of stuff, and let him get that two-way go, put him on an island with the tackle, make the tackle figure out what to do with him. If you try to set wide, try to make him go through you, you can go through you, man. I don't care about that arm length.

Starting point is 00:28:45 And I think it was Ben Solac who pointed out the hump move that maybe even benefits and talking to Bengals coaches before the Super Bowl about Trey Hendrickson and how he weaponizes his relatively short arms, who he still has like an inch and a quarter longer arms than Bain, but relatively short arms for Hendrickson. Worth noting, by the way, for Caleb Banks and for all of the defensive tackles that the Bengals talked to, nobody's doing agility testing at the combine anymore. There were five defensive tackles that did a three cone, and that number goes up to seven. Am I looking at this right?

Starting point is 00:29:26 Seven, when you look at the short shuttle for agility testing for defensive ends, one defensive end, one. defensive end did a short shuttle three or sorry two did the three cone one of those was Danny Dennis Sutton who the Bengals did meet with and he did really well with it too so the athletic profile for Dennis Sutton is is really appetizing to go along with like solid not spectacular production but back to defensive tackle it's going to be really interesting to see what their approaches are right because it's not a great draft it's an okay draft there are some guys that that you could roll the dice on I would personally with the stakes of this year,

Starting point is 00:30:07 with the stakes of having a top 10 pick with Joe Burrow, I would feel so uncomfortable of rolling the dice on a Caleb Banks. And I wonder that that's why it's going to be one of those big questions, right, that we're trying to evaluate and get a feel for between now and April. This is a defensive line show, and I'm Trenchman.

Starting point is 00:30:30 Trenchman. But Trenchman, the vaults. Trenchman defaults to, man, get a stud. And so how do you get a stud? You get a stud and you put yourself in position to take said stud, whatever it is. Safety, maybe you want Caleb Downs. Well, free agency has to set the tone because guess what?

Starting point is 00:30:50 If you want Caleb Downs to thrive, you're going to have to get guys in the trenches that can give him a chance to thrive. And that's it. I mean, there's a lot of guys. Like, I think they could get an awesome player at 10, despite what everyone's saying draft-wise. But man, oh man, does it really set? Depending on when you're watching, maybe you're watching this or listening to this on Sunday. But Monday, a week from now if it's Monday, ooh, we are, we're cooking now, Jake, let's go,

Starting point is 00:31:19 because it's going to be a legal tampering period. And we're going to know about Trey Hendrickson's tag or no, like all these things are going to come into it to focus. By the way, I don't think, I don't think they're going to tag and trade them. even though I offered my services, I don't think that that's going to happen. But, you know, maybe things go in a different direction. That's really a week from Monday, huh? Yeah, dude, it's right. It's here.

Starting point is 00:31:45 Yeah, we got to get our free agent sheet to the people. We got to get our free agent plans put together later this week. Oh, my gosh. It's here. It's here, Ram. It always sneaks up. Get to the end of February. And it's that short month.

Starting point is 00:32:01 It's like three extra. days you're used to and it's gone and now we're already in March and it's like wait what about February 30th? Ridiculous. Doesn't exist. Let's have a look there for this episode of the lockdown Bengals podcast.

Starting point is 00:32:15 Until next time, thanks for listening. Who day? And have a good. Did you say Jeremiah love?

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