Locked On Bengals - Daily Podcast On The Cincinnati Bengals - Duke Tobin's offseason to-do list is focused on the trenches

Starting point is 00:00:00 We've spent a lot of time parsing what Duke Tobin had to say in Mobile, Alabama. Let's get to the rest of his comments that point to where his priorities are for the Cincinnati Bengals offseason. You are locked on Bengals, your daily Cincinnati Bengals podcast. Part of the Locked On Podcast Network, your team every day. What up Bengals fans and welcome to another episode of the Locked on Bengals podcast. I'm your host, Jake Liscoe. He's your host, James Rapine, and we are locked on Bengals, your team every day. on YouTube and everywhere you get your podcast. If you're new to the show, you can subscribe to make sure you don't miss an episode

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Starting point is 00:01:02 So very much. This episode brought to you by prize picks where you can get, $50 instantly on your first $5 play. Go to pricepix.com slash locked on NFL and use promo code Lockdown NFL to take advantage of that offer. Jays, today we dive back into the Duke Tobin comments from the Senior Bowl interviews with Kelsey Conway and Jeff Hobson of Bengals.com, Cincinnati.com for Kelsey Conway. And the focus has been, when we talked about these comments up until now,

Starting point is 00:01:33 on the big three contracts that are up for discussion for the Bengals this off season and financial aspects thereof. In addition to a little bit about the players themselves, we're going to get more into alternatives, alternative plans and stuff like that in the future. But today, there was certainly some indication from Duke Tobin's comments in these interviews that points to the rest of his priorities for this offseason. And there's definitely a focus. Let's start with the offensive line on the trenches and on the offensive side with guard play yeah jake let's get into guard something that i think a lot of our listeners and viewers have focused on have prioritized so how big of a priority is it for the bengals this offseason well let's start with a quote from duke tob and

Starting point is 00:02:20 this to kelsey conway quote the way we play requires a firm pocket and we've hired a new offensive line coach we're hopeful that there can be some improvement made technique wise with him and obviously they hired Scott Peters last month, moved on from Frank Pollack, and he said, for sure there will be competition at those positions. We have to evaluate who will come back and who will not come back. It's a spot that we're focused on. We're going to continue to work with guys that we have on the roster, and we're going to try to evaluate how to get better with the guys that aren't currently on the roster, and whether that's young guys from the draft, whether that's free agents. We're going to add to that group. We're definitely going to add to that group. And honestly, I think that

Starting point is 00:03:01 that's exactly how the approach should be, right? Obviously, you want Scott Peters to make the guys that you are going to keep better. At the same time, you can't neglect what has been a spot of weakness. And the guard spot, really, I would say outside of 2022 for Alex Kappa has been a weakness at both spots more so than not at any point, but certainly over the past couple of seasons. Yeah, I think definitely over the past couple of seasons. I think definitely over the past couple of seasons, definitely throughout the Joe Burrow era, the offensive line in general has been an issue.

Starting point is 00:03:36 And there's, yeah, I think been maybe a handful of games in that period of time where we felt like, yeah, the guards are okay this week, you know, going into a game. And we haven't thought about the threat that exists in the middle of the pocket for Joe Burrow to deal with. And Duke Tobin highlights out at the beginning of the quote, right? Like the way we play, it requires a firm pocket. And so that's one of the reasons that they're thinking. Scott Peters, past pro technician, we can change the way that we're playing stylistically,

Starting point is 00:04:06 perhaps on the interior offensive line for the way that Joe Burrow wants to play football. But also, the reason that this is a noteworthy quote is because he did not say it's a spot we're focused on. He did not say we're going to add to that group, we're definitely going to add to that group to emphasize it. He did not say that about every position that he was asked about. and he did go out of his way to say that about this spot.

Starting point is 00:04:33 And we're going to get to the defensive side of the ball too and the things that he talked about and the things that he didn't talk about. But it's not just a throwaway for Duke Tobin when he says we're going to add to that group. That is from him a very clear indication that there are plans to spend assets this offseason to improve a position. It's not just we, like the guys we have, there's going to be competition.

Starting point is 00:05:00 It's also, it's a spot we're focused on. And you get that kind of wording from Duke Tobin. I think that very clearly indicates that this is a big priority for him in the Bengals front office this off season. And obviously it should be. We all agree there. And we've, especially the past couple of episodes, have been, I don't even want to say critical, but honest about where the Bengals are at reacting to some of Duke

Starting point is 00:05:23 Tobin's comments. And that might not be the most obvious. optimistic view given what he said or didn't say. What he's saying here is exactly what I want to hear. Now, they still have to go do it. But the approach in late January at the senior bowl when he made these comments or now early February pre-combine, that's what it should be is, oh, yeah, we're going to have guys that are no longer on this roster.

Starting point is 00:05:50 Made it very clear. And we're going to have turnover. And we're going to address it. We're going to add, whether it's in the draft or free. agency. That's what it needs to be. Because I think that throughout the Joe Burrow era, if you just sum it up, the Bengals offensive line has been bad throughout the entire era. That doesn't mean that they have five bad linemen now. I think they have three good line. And by good, I mean, good starting level linemen, not assessing the backups or anything like that. But from a left tackle standpoint,

Starting point is 00:06:23 I like Orlando Brown Jr. a lot. I thought he was on pace not only to make the proble, but maybe push for an all pro not this year. Well, she's never done. I thought he was playing at a really, really high level. Amarius Mims, there's reason to believe in him. Ted Karras, that played pretty darn well, especially when you take into consideration the guards that he's playing next to. So that's where you have to get better.

Starting point is 00:06:43 And they need to add multiple. And when you say draft and free agency, Jake, I think that they know they need to add multiple. This just can't be a, let's replace Alex Kappa. Let's move on from him. He's a cap casualty. Let's replace him. they need multiple guards. And that doesn't mean they can't have position flex and play tackle two or play center.

Starting point is 00:07:04 I'm open to that. But they need two starting guards this offseason. Yeah, I don't care about position flex as much when you're talking about starters. I mean, it's nice. Don't get me wrong. It's nice to have guys that can play guard while they're learning the NFL and maybe take over for Ted Karras at center in the future. And maybe Matt Lee is the Bengal center of the future, maybe not. I don't think that that should rule out a center slash guard prospect.

Starting point is 00:07:31 And certainly they're going to be tackle slash guard prospects in this draft. And I think that's where a lot of the strength of the interior line class will come from, depending on who you ask, when guys are projecting certain tackles to kick into guard in the NFL. I think that is where a lot of strength in this guard class will come from because the pure guards, the guys have played guard in college. There's only a handful of those guys in this draft. but there are some guys available in free agency that should be starter level options,

Starting point is 00:07:59 should be solid starter level options for the Bengals to explore. And that will be their task. But I do think that when he says it's a focus and we're going to add to that spot and he reiterates it, there is an awareness that it's not just one player. And talk is cheap, quite frankly, is the other point here. And this is going to apply for all of these things. Everything that Duke Tobin is saying is great to have that self-awareness. It's great to have that plan or that idea for what you want to execute with your offseason.

Starting point is 00:08:30 It's great to talk about all these things. And I'm sure they have plans A through Z lined up, right? And all the alternatives that we're going to talk about with keeping their own guys and what direction they need to go in free agency and what direction that means they need to go in the drafts and all that stuff. But it's going to come down to executing those plans. It always does. And so while we're going to spend a lot of time today talking about the positives of Duke Tobin's self-awareness that he seems to say, yeah, we're going to fix these things,

Starting point is 00:08:57 but we know our flaws. We agree with Duke Tobin are flaws on the team and that anybody can see your flaws on the team. Then they have to turn around and they'll still have to execute those plans, right? And that's where we're going to spend a lot of time talking about these plans today. And then the underlying maybe not as said or implied a sentiment there is, then you've got to go do it when it's time to start making moves. Yeah, for sure, have to execute, have to find a way to get the best,

Starting point is 00:09:24 get the best protection for an eye and be able to run the ball. Right? Those are the two things that I think the guard play. It just left a lot to be desired. I have a question for you on how they address it. Because I think that there's, the fan base feels pretty strongly about this. And I'm curious to see how you view it. Plus, there's a Bengals veteran that is making some progress.

Starting point is 00:09:49 And he's going to be a free agent in a month. And I'm curious if you think they should bring it back. So I'll ask Jake Liscoe, both of those things coming up next. Today's show is brought to you by Fandall. It is here. It is Super Bowl week. And Super Bowl 59 is here. One game, two teams, endless possibilities.

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Starting point is 00:11:15 So they're thinking draft. What if the Bengals went and got a Zach Martin or got one of these journeymen veteran guards to plug and play for this year? How would you feel about that if they went the veteran path? Kind of like how they've gone at right tackle if they did that at guard. I would say as a patchwork solution, you'd certainly still be open to an early guard if that was the approach. I would be surprised that the Bengals went that route.

Starting point is 00:11:48 I think that from Duke Tobin's comments, that doesn't seem to be their approach to it. but while I would be certainly totally fine with Kevin Zitler being part of next year's solution. Yeah. I would want them to also have some young talent as well. Like I'm not very interested in seeing two veteran journeymen or even really good veterans just on the last legs of their career perhaps be the two guards for the Bengals. If it's one of them for one year, maybe you could talk me into that,

Starting point is 00:12:26 but it wouldn't be the most exciting plan because I do think that there are other options available to the Bengals. What are your thoughts there? I don't feel strongly about it. I just want to fix it. Now, this idea of a long-term fix, it sounds good. Like, we think Amarie Smith's is going to be really awesome and be a long-term fix. But that takes time.

Starting point is 00:12:50 And I don't want that reaching the draft. There's also some younger free agent options That'll be a little bit more expensive than the one-year veterans Sure, but they're not going to sign Trey Smith I would be shocked, right? No, I'm talking like the Will Freeze or Fry's freeze. Yeah, no doubt. No, there's options for sure.

Starting point is 00:13:07 I'm just curious. I just want the best team in 2025. And so if that means the veteran stopgap and then you take one in the draft when you see fit, I'm fine with that. I'm fine with two veteran stopgaps and one draft pick. you can't really predict the draft. I'm just kind of open to it as long as you can move, move the guys in front of you to open up running lanes and pass protect for Joe.

Starting point is 00:13:33 But I was just kind of curious. The other quick update, before we get back to Doobin's comments, Trent Brown making pretty good progress from his torn Patelor tendon, exchanged a message with him. And he's doing well. I think he hopes to be back, wants to be back. We'll see if he does return. I would be open to him returning.

Starting point is 00:13:54 I don't know how you feel about that, but the swing tackle element, assuming that he's feeling pretty good, it's not like he's going to cost a lot of money. I'd be open to him returning. Yeah, I think that you're talking about players in that category. I don't know if the Bengals experienced with him last off season where it took them a very long time to get him on the field

Starting point is 00:14:14 is going to give them pause about that. Of course, he's dealing with the injury that he's recovering from as well, but he is still a solid player. He was a solid player when he was out there, at least in pass protection. He couldn't move. But when you're talking about that being a tackle off the bench, that's a different proposition. Again, I would probably look elsewhere there. If it were me, I would spend a little bit more money there for your third tackle.

Starting point is 00:14:40 Me personally, that would be my approach there. But if you want to just try to spend, you know, just in the $2 million range on a third tackle, then if you feel confident in his record, recovery, that's the idea of the player that would feel good, but you would have to really think about how he's recovering and how that's affecting him at this stage in his career. Yeah, I think it's so interesting how they put it together, that's all, because you could sell me on him, but that doesn't mean that you don't take a tackle that you think can play guard early, right? And someone that can potentially do both with that positional flex.

Starting point is 00:15:18 ultimately we all want the same thing right protect nine and open up open up the run game a bit more yeah it's not yeah it's as important that you keep pointing this out it's not just protection protection is definitely part of it look at the teams that are in the super bowl right now chris jones and and uh why am i blanking on the last name jalen jalen davis jalen davis jordan davis jaylin davis jaylin davis jillin what uh from georgia okay you don't know it either Great, perfect. Neither of us know the names. Dominant defensive tackles in the Super Bowl.

Starting point is 00:15:54 It's Jaylen, right? Man, what are you doing? Keep talking. Dominate defensive tackles in the Super Bowl. You're right. And due to acknowledging how many good defensive tackles are in the NFL, which requires you when you want to play quarterback and play offense the way the Bengals want to play offense

Starting point is 00:16:10 for the majority of the game before it becomes important to run the ball. And it's important early in the game, too, but to finish the game with the running game, you need to be able to handle these defensive tackles. And it's not just the two teams in the Super Bowl Carter, of course. There you go. You threw me off. I was not ready.

Starting point is 00:16:26 I was not ready for that. But yes, obviously, that's a huge factor. You think about how the Bengals seasons have ended the Super Bowl 56. What is it? It's an interior. AFC championship game. It is Chris Jones getting that play. And it's against backups.

Starting point is 00:16:44 And so, like, those decisions are so huge because linemen six through seven. six through eight are probably playing. And so that's a big part of it as well, whether it is the technique for the young guys, if those are young players, or it's bringing in veterans and spending a bit more on veterans. I think that they got to find a way to just be much better in that area, that area, both areas.

Starting point is 00:17:10 Because, by the way, if they can move people on the run game, it's going to make their life easier in the run game. You know, the thing I'm sick of is like, oh, it's so tough on them. Yeah. Well, if they could move someone, then maybe the Bengals would run the ball more. I don't think Joe Burrow and Zach Taylor are anti-run game. I think that a big part of it was this is not the best option.

Starting point is 00:17:31 The best option is putting it in my hands. And I'm sure Joe would be open to a better run game if they had it. There's honestly a quote from Duke Tobin that we'll get to that gets into why I think they played the way they played, especially in 2024. I do think that they're always going to be a past first team with Joe Burrow, and that's fine. But as we transition to talk about the defense, one of the things that Duke Tobin is recognizing when he's talking about, we need to get better on the defensive line and all this stuff. We need to get better in the pass rush is you have to earn those opportunities because we're in too many third and shorts on defense. And you flip that on the other side, getting more third and shorts on offense.

Starting point is 00:18:13 And it's going to make the job harder for opposing defenses. They're not going to be able to tee off as much on you in those situations, especially if you have a legitimate threat of running the ball on third and short, on third and two, where they have to think, oh, maybe Joe Burrow isn't going to drop back and try to throw this ball. Right? If you have that threat, it does make a difference in the way teams can defend you. And while that applies to the Bengals defense as well,

Starting point is 00:18:38 I think you can turn around and apply that to the Bengals offense and say, well, if we force, opposing defenses to earn pass rush opportunities a little bit more than we did by being more efficient on early downs, especially with the run game. And these things all tie together. And I'll read, I think, pretty good quote from Duke Tobin about that in a few minutes. Then it makes everything easier. I think that a lot of that does have to do with having the ability to move people in the run game on your offensive line, which they do not do consistently at all right now. I wonder if Kevin Zaitler could help that.

Starting point is 00:19:15 See, I'm not ageist. I don't care. I'm not saying you are. He could for a year. I don't care. Sure. He's not near. By the way, I don't think the Bengals would view him as a three-year solution.

Starting point is 00:19:26 Let's be real here. So I think we would be safe there if that came about. But I also don't want, oh, well, let's give this rookie a bunch of run. And he's going to be really good in 2026 or 27. It sounds good. I need to be good in 2025. And so there's the balance that they're certainly going to have to figure out. But you mentioned the defense.

Starting point is 00:19:51 Let's switch gears. Let's talk about the defense coming up next. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. What are some of your relationship green flags? We often hear about red flags we should avoid. But we focus more on identifying positive signs in our relationships, those green flags. If you're not sure what they look like, therapy can help you identify them, actively practice them, and even embody that green flag energy yourself. Whether you're dating, married, building a friendship, or working on yourself, therapy can help you form relationships that love you back.

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Starting point is 00:21:12 ball last year he's including the running game in this so clearly a big focus from duke tobin on the defense the quote goes there are elements of our team that have to get better. We have to play better defense. We have to run the ball a little bit better. But that goes hand in hand with playing defense. If you believe that you're going to hold the team, then you're a little more flexible to do some things differently on offense.

Starting point is 00:21:30 I know for a fact, Joe felt very pressed to play in the way he played to try to keep us ahead in games. It's not an indictment on anyone more than me. So taking some accountability there at the end, but also showing that understanding that this all fits together. And this is one of my favorite quotes from Tobin, not that, again, words are everything, but that self-awareness that this all fits together

Starting point is 00:21:53 and this admission that the offense had to change the way it played, and Joe Burrow had to change the way he played because of an understanding of what was going on on the defensive side of the ball. I think that speaks magnitudes. Yeah, no doubt. And I'm very aware of that. I'm sure you had that conversation with Joe,

Starting point is 00:22:09 maybe multiple throughout the season. You could feel that. And you think back to Joe saying, I have to be perfect. It's really, really hard. I'll use the baseball analogy. If you go up to the plate every time thinking you have to get on base every single time. Obviously, you want to.

Starting point is 00:22:25 And if you feel that pressure even more, it's kind of amazing to see him play the way he did this year, considering that he probably thought in a lot of these games he's going to have to hang 40 on their opponent. And, yeah, I think Duke gets it. Like, it's not like he's, like you read what you read on social media and you see all these things. It's not like he doesn't understand. But like, we're talking about a guy who's an NFL lifer, and I'm sure he understands where they need to get better. My main concern, as is everybody's, can you, not can, will they, and this goes back to yesterday's show, do what's required to get to the level that they need to get to and not cut corners is the wrong word, but not pretend that they're maximizing what they have? because I do think that they know what they need to do.

Starting point is 00:23:21 And it's trusting themselves in every moment in being able to push them, push to uncomfortable levels, I would say, in that building that they haven't necessarily pushed before. Because I do think that they evaluate better than maybe given credit for. But when you're forced to draft, for example, you're forced to address defense, a defensive tackle, with multiple draft picks because you know you need those bodies and you're not going to spend more money on proven guys. Well, that's an issue. It's really hard to get a plug-and-play nose tackle in a draft that didn't have many nose tackles, right?

Starting point is 00:24:01 And so that's one of the many things I hope they kind of avoid, but they have a lot of holes that they have to fill and I think they know it. And when you say forced by themselves, right, by their approach. approach. Yes. Yeah. And so that's part of the criticism yesterday, right? It's can they take the necessary steps? Can they execute a plan that doesn't require them to go six for six in the draft this year, right? Because that's nearly impossible. It probably could happen, but as soon as much as we're going to sit here after that, after these draft picks and say, yeah, here's how this guy fits. probably 50% of them don't fit. That's just the way the draft works.

Starting point is 00:24:45 On the topic of the defense, Duke Tobin did seem particularly focused on the pass rush. When evaluating the defensive line, this is where that quote that I mentioned earlier, we need more pass rush. You've got to get yourself in pass rush situations. More than we did, we had too many manageable third downs. Playing with the lead means more than just scoring on offense.

Starting point is 00:25:01 You have to get the stops on defense to really play with the lead. We weren't getting those stops. So an awareness of multiple issues on defense there, both in stopping the run to earn those pass rush opportunities, being better on early downs, and obviously an awareness that they need to improve the pass rush. He did say that he's pretty bullish on some of these young guys. He remains optimistic, and this may be Duke Tobin do in GM speak, but he remains optimistic on Chris Jenkins, McKinley, Jackson, and Cedric Johnson.

Starting point is 00:25:27 But he also did say, we're going to add to that spot. When talking about the interior in particular, similar to the interior on the offensive line, there was a repeated emphasis on we're going to add to that spot. spot. I don't think that showed up as much at the edge position, James, where instead of talking about potentially adding to that spot, I don't think they've ruled this out by any means. He's talking instead about, I don't give up on Miles Murphy. He's got to get into groove. He's got to play more. He's got to finish his rush where he's winning. He's got to finish at the top of his rush. But there wasn't such an emphasis on adding to the edge position as I read Duke Tobin.

Starting point is 00:26:05 Now, of course, I can change once the plan comes into contact with time and they figure out who's actually available to them. We'll see what happens with Trey. If they have to make a decision on Trey, they may have to go a different direction there. But just judging from these comments on defense, the overall focus is figuring out the fit at safety for

Starting point is 00:26:23 Gino Stone, that's part of the conversation, but certainly a focus on the defensive line and the interior of that defensive line being better in both phases of his job. I think you can see the why with Lou a little bit in these comments.

Starting point is 00:26:39 the frustration of not playing some of these young guys. And we'll see. We'll see who's right. I think the front office is bullish on some of these past pressures. It doesn't mean, like you said, that they won't address it. But it also goes back to the offensive line conversation. If you can get a game changer in the middle, it can really change things. And a guy that's commanding double teams makes it real hard to double team,

Starting point is 00:27:06 tray and a guy in the middle. Now, I don't know if they'll be able to get that guy this off season, but it would be better. It would be ideal to find someone that can give you some pressure there consistently. That's what they thought Sheldon Rankins was going to do. Obviously, that didn't work. Maybe it's time to stop taking half steps on the defensive line, right? Like to actually make an investment there because they spent a lot of money, but they spread it out so much that you have a bunch of mid-tier guys and you're not getting

Starting point is 00:27:35 the production from them. you could get instead from some lower budget guys and one guy that actually costs some money. Sure. And I think that's the balance. We'll see who's who else is out there. I think there will be some cap casualties and some guys probably made available between now and in free agency or even sooner than that. So they have to get better there. They have to find a way. And whether it's locked on Bengals fan favorite, Klyas Campbell, I mean, he gets mentioned every podcast that's seems like whether Javon Hargrave gets released by the 49ers, it sounds like he's going to. Like, I'm not against that type of player, but you can't just do that.

Starting point is 00:28:19 You're looking at the draft, and you need to find someone that's going to give you some juice on the defensive front. You just need it. And so that'll be draft, that'll be free agency. It's got to be both. It's the bottom line. They have to find it in both spots. And Callais Campbell should be an and to any of your. plans, quite frankly, like you can do Milton Williams and Callais Campbell. You can. I promise. It works. It will be a season of upheaval on the defensive side of the ball here, James. Hargrave and Williams. Oh, boy. Now you're, now that, whee. I would have to go see what Hargrave has done lately. Oh, last year, last year he was good in 23, missed most of last year with an

Starting point is 00:29:04 injury. These NFC guys. Oh, Eagles guys. Eagles guys. They'll bring their Eagles. I know Hargrave was in San Francisco the past couple of years, but you're talking about Eagles. I mean, are we going to be talking about Mackayette Beckton again for a guard spot this off season after what he did with Philadelphia? Is he going to be open to that?

Starting point is 00:29:21 I don't know what the future looks like for Bechton and the guard spot. One last quote to close on here, James, it underlines the amount of changes that are coming. As Duke Tobin is just straight up acknowledging, we're going to have to evaluate who's going to play up to that, meaning the money they're spending and who isn't. We're going to have to make changes. There's going to have to be an influx of young players. We're going to have to reevaluate where money is being spent,

Starting point is 00:29:42 how much is being spent on each position. Is that money going where it needs to go? Underlines what we've been talking about, James, I think, quite a bit. There are a number of cuts coming. There will be money reallocated from players that they do not feel they're getting their money's worth on to players that they're hoping will provide value for that money. And that's where I come back to that idea of like playing too many mid players.

Starting point is 00:30:07 You have to do some of that. I get it. But the Bengals defense is made out of mid-level contracts for mid-level players. And at some point, that's just not good enough when you don't have the star power to go with it. And they don't really have that right now. So we'll see what these changes bring. Like I said, it's going to come down to execution. They've got a lot of work ahead of them this off-season.

Starting point is 00:30:31 But I think that these conversations did reveal that largely what fans see is problems, so does Duke Tobin in the front office. And it's just a matter of how they go about fixing it. Yep. And that's checking the right box in late January, early February. Can't do anything about it yet, realistically, but certainly checking the right box here. Yeah, there are many different paths that they can take to get there. and we'll talk about those.

Starting point is 00:31:02 We've got one more NFL game, though, this season, which gives us the opportunity to talk about what the Bengals can or should learn from the teams in the Super Bowl and exercise that I think a lot of teams and a lot of media certainly do every year. And we will take a look at that topic in our last episode of the week. That'll come out tomorrow. Until then, thanks for listening to this episode

Starting point is 00:31:28 of the Lockdown Bengals podcast. Hoodeh, and have a good one.

Locked On Bengals - Daily Podcast On The Cincinnati Bengals - Duke Tobin's offseason to-do list is focused on the trenches

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