Locked On Bengals - Daily Podcast On The Cincinnati Bengals - INSIGHT: Mike Renner's take on Bengals' Draft | Upside swings, but what about value?

Starting point is 00:00:00 The Cincinnati Bengals certainly drafted for upside. I'm joined today by Mike Renner to discuss the Cincinnati Bengals 2025 draft hall. You are locked on Bengals, your daily Cincinnati Bengals podcast. Part of the Locked on Podcast Network, your team every day. What up, Bengals fans, and welcome to another episode of the Locked on Bengals podcast. Part of the Lockdown Podcast Network, your team every day. I'm Jake Blissko, and as Lockdown, Bengals goes, we've been covering the Cincinnati Bengals since 2016, joined today by Mike

Starting point is 00:00:41 Runner, CBS Sports analyst who's been doing awesome draft work between this time at PFF and now with CBS Sports for years. We've been having Mike on the show to talk about what his thoughts are before the draft, after the draft. And today will be an after the draft episode. If you're an every day or welcome back to lockdown Bengals. Appreciate you coming back. If you're not in every day yet you can hit that subscribe button to make sure you don't miss an episode and also want to thank all of you out there who make locked on bengals your first listen and mike i went through your top 150 again before we started recording and the bengals got some guys in there i think four of the players of bengals drafted maybe five four of the players of bengals drafted in your top 150 and i asked

Starting point is 00:01:27 you before we started recording would you agree if i described this bengal's drafts you draft as a draft for upside. And you said, yeah, but when you think about that answer, how many of the players of Bengals picked do you see as upside picks? Like if you go through each one, how many of them are swings for the fences? Probably four, I would say, I think Stewart pick, Demetra Snipeak, Barrett Carter pick, and Gillen Rivers pick. I think all of those are upside plays.

Starting point is 00:01:58 Fairchild feels like not as much, felt more. of like a scramble at the time where it's saying, hey, we need someone who could probably play for us this year. And he was probably the best on the board for them in that regard. But it felt like an upside draft, but also a draft where it's like they really identified holes and said, we have to go there, unfortunately. And I feel like that's, that's just not how you get surplus value in the draft ultimately. It's how you end up getting reaches more often than not and maybe getting guys earlier than where you would like him. So it just felt like they're like, we have to get a lineback,

Starting point is 00:02:35 we have to get a guard, and we have to get a pass rusher in the first three rounds. And then by the third, they're like, okay, well, we're stuck with, you know, Dylan Fairchild, who's top of my board. Dylan Fairchild is a guy that I think the Bengals see as a player with upside. What, when you think about Fairchild, do you think makes him more of like an immediate play versus an upside play that stands him out from the other guys. Well, what is don't think he's like a physically dominant guard, right?

Starting point is 00:03:03 I don't think he is this impressive specimen at the guard position, even in the way that like maybe his teammate, Tate Routich is. I think he's just like a fine athlete. And I think watching him on tape, he, you know, going against the level of competition he went against.

Starting point is 00:03:22 I just feel like he's a little more NFL ready, although he hasn't played a ton, you know, a year and a half, I think about in terms of snaps as a starter. So he does need more reps, but it just isn't quite the high-end athlete that those other guys are. Gotcha. Obviously, I'm going to start with Shamar Stewart here,

Starting point is 00:03:38 even though we've talked about some of the other guys. But in terms of an upside swing, Samar Stewart described by NFL GMs and the executives in the athletics, post-draft, gathering feedback from executives article as an upside pick, obviously there's upside when you consider his college production versus his traits and in that regard there's productivity upside especially when it comes to finishing play sacks tackles for loss where he's a very disruptive player or at least a disruptive player if not very disruptive player but the finishing isn't a big part of his game right now there's another side of this coin to me

Starting point is 00:04:18 Mike, which is when you have that level of athletic tools and that size, and by all accounts, football character, good character, he's going to go in there and work hard, that offers you a bit of a floor in the way that Amarius Mim's size and athletic traits offered him a floor. He was more technically refined, I think, as a player coming out despite the inexperience than Shemar Stewart. But how do you balance those things when you think about upside versus floor for a guy with the traits that Shumar Stewart has? I feel like we were just saying this a couple years ago, though, about Miles Murphy.

Starting point is 00:04:51 And obviously, his floor has been pretty low, right? And you look at his athletic traits. And it's not as if we haven't seen a Shemar Stewart ever, right, in terms of the athlete. And obviously, you know, Miles Murphy ran a faster 40 than he did at a heavier weight and has explosive traits that are in the ballpark of what Shmar Stewart has. Now, I do think on tape Shemar Stewart is the Twitter athlete, but I thought Miles Murphy, like earlier in his career, Clemson had some better tape and put better tape out than Shmar Stewart really ever did at Texas A&M. So I'm not necessarily certain it gives you a high floor, especially when he does miss as many opportunities as he does. And it's like infuriating watches tape and it's going to be frustrated for Bengals fans because I haven't seen a lot of guys in that mold who are just struggle as much as he does to finish at the ball care, whether it's like any position, right?

Starting point is 00:05:42 I think tackling in and of itself is a skill. Yeah, it can be coached up. but if a linebacker can't tackle up the collegiate level, he's not all of a sudden going to be Bobby Wagner in the NFL, right? It's not something that just turns around wholesale. He can get better at it, but I think it's always going to be an issue for a guy like that. But the reason I worry about him and like when I did a bunch of exercise

Starting point is 00:06:03 in terms of pre-draft mocks and like what we would do, what I would do sort of mocks and with other people, just everyone continuously didn't really want to take that chance on Shmar Stewart. just because you could be ending up with that guy who three years down the line you're still trying to talk yourself into and just he really has to take that next step in his development. Now it doesn't take a lot when you are that physically gifted to, you know, I was a Pax fan. I'm a Pax fan. Rishon Gary obviously was in a similar mold and two years of frustrating play and then all of a sudden year three, he looked like a changed man. And obviously that pick turns out to be a good one in retrospect.

Starting point is 00:06:40 And it doesn't take that many moves. Like, Rashon Gary really just learned a bull rush and kind of a counteroff of it. And that's who he is now. And that's really all he does. And he can be effective because he is so gifted athletically. But it just might take you a while to get to that level of consistency. And even Rashon Gary now, even kind of having lost a step after the ACL is really neutered in terms of his effectiveness. Really was not the same player last year.

Starting point is 00:07:05 There's also Lucas Van Ness on the other side of that for the Packers. I just talked to Justice Muscatah actually. Two Green Bay perspectives here on Samar Stewart. And that episode will be out tomorrow for those of you who are watching this before that episode is released and talked about exactly like you said. The plan for Shamar Stewart is give him a pass rushman. Get him one move that he can do at a high level and get him a counteroffing. And that's exactly what you're talking about with Rashan Gary.

Starting point is 00:07:34 But with Shamar, you're saying, I hear you saying that you like my level. Murphy on tape better. The big difference between those guys athletically is the jumps. Jumped. And Schramar didn't do agility. Talking to justice, he thinks that when Shemar Stewart had the opportunity to pin his ears back and try to turn the corner, he saw a high-quality bend on tape for Shemar Stewart. But what about the run defense? So a lot of people will point to the PFF run defense grade and that trending in the right direction. The ability to when he does try to play with technique in the run game, use his length in the run game to lock out a block,

Starting point is 00:08:18 shed a block, when he has his eyes on the ball, where do you think he is as a run defender right now? I think he's okay. I do think he really struggles to find the football and to kind of recognize and react. If it's just base block, tackles attacking him, and he knows I can just go into his chest, right, long arm, whatever. I think he's fine. I think his technique solid there. And I think like he can be

Starting point is 00:08:43 an edge setter. I just don't see a guy who's ever going to who's not ever, but like who right now is going to do much more than just hold the point of attack. You know, asking him to shed finish plays, I didn't see that consistently on his tape. That obviously shows in the any of the numbers you want to go into about him. So obviously like the athlete, the strength, the explosiveness, it's all there to be a high end edge setter and a high-end run defender, but just technically right now, it really is just he can hold onto a block. That's about all I felt good about seeing on tape from him. I have one more question about Samar Stewart. I do well, maybe two. I have two more questions on Samar Stewart. It turns out, well, we'll finish up on Shamar Stewart and then get to the

Starting point is 00:09:28 rest of the draft class coming up next. This episode of Lockdown Bengals is sponsored by Upwork. And Upwork knows that scaling your business requires the right expertise at the right time. And with Upwork, you can find those specialized freelancers in marketing, development, design, and more fields, experts ready to help take your business to the next level. Upwork gives you that flexibility you need by connecting you with top freelance talent across multiple industries, including IT, AI, web development, and marketing, whether you need extra hands for a project or a long-term partner. Upwork makes hiring simple and affordable.

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Starting point is 00:10:35 revolve around your idea of if you were in charge of his development plan, what would that look like? And then a comparative discussion around Miles Murphy as a prospect versus Jamar Stewart as a prospect that you've alluded to a little bit here, but I want to dig into a little bit more. But I ask Justice the same question.

Starting point is 00:10:52 So we'll get this answer from Justice in the next episode for the everydayers, but I want to get your take as well. If you're looking at Shamar Stewart, being experienced as you are as a draft analyst and a guy who's followed the Packers, what would you say is priority one and priority two for his development? I mean, I think it's just the long-arm bull rush is priority one, getting that to a point where you just feel confident in it.

Starting point is 00:11:16 I think getting him, gosh, I almost want to put him on a basketball court too and just get him. Because he is a little more laterally twitched up than he can really cross-face on an offense tackle when he wants to. So, like, getting that into his game as well and more refined because I just don't see a, You know, like a crossover move in basketball, there's like a salesmanship to it. There's a body control that like your body goes one way before it goes the other to sell to be an offensive lineman. When he would do inside moves in college, when he would do things of that nature, there really was none of that, right? There was no setting the offense tackle up. It was just a super linear, you know, same thing you worry about or talk about when it's like tight ends route running and things of that nature where they just straight line to straight line.

Starting point is 00:12:08 You need a little bit more salesmanship when you're trying to get past an offensive tackle. So those two things are priorities 1A, 1B for me in Shemar Stewart when watching his tape. He does have one clip that I know I've seen on Twitter where he actually has that bit of a Eurostep kind of thing. So what I'm hearing is just put him over the center and have him watch a bunch of Miles Garrett and Michael Parsons and learn that crossover move, right? Euro step. Yes. Just have him watch Manu Genoble. 2006 on repeat.

Starting point is 00:12:41 There you go. The next topic here before we turn the page on Shamar Stewart and get into the rest of the class here as a conversation is you made the comparison for the Bengals of they drafted another really athletic player in Miles Murphy. Obviously, there are differences to their game. But when you consider what you saw from those guys on tape, you consider what you expect them to be in the NFL, what do you think the, the, the, primary differences are and having seen miles murphy's development so far i guess do you still think

Starting point is 00:13:15 that there is a chance for him to to find his footing in the nfl man he just had such a bad year this past year and i don't know what it was um but again he is the guy who was very young still young coming out um and that he's younger than a lot of guys who were like top two rounders you know he's two years younger than demetri's night right so he has room to grow and i'm not going to write off any guy who's africish and like he was good as a true freshman at clemson so like there there's there is innate talent there but it's just he's got to get more under control man i just watch him and it looks like a chicken with his head cut off there just needs to be a plan snap in and snap out from miles murphy and unfortunately just have not seen that from him throughout his career this

Starting point is 00:13:59 far i think that the hope there is that a new coaching staff that yes is explicitly been hired that has explicitly been hired to try to develop young players in a way that Lou Aniruma and staff was unable to do so. That's a hope there. Then last thing, what's what's a big difference to you between Samar Stewart and Miles Murphy? Or what are like the couple things that come to mind at the top of the list? I do think, like I said, Stuart's a little, Murphy a little more linear than Stewart. Stewart does have a little more lateral in general to his game. I did think Murphy was stronger, though, coming out of Clemson, like a little bit more like when he's engaged on a block, you saw physicality with his upper body and ability

Starting point is 00:14:44 to shed. Now, obviously, that has to translate to the NFL. But I do think like that still, he is a little bit more of a strength power sort of player, whereas Stewart's more just an athlete in terms of how he wins at this point. Interesting stuff. Let's shift gears and talk about that player that is a little bit older than Miles Murphy. The Bengals go linebacker Demetrius Knight in the second round, who, again, is in your top 150, but is your linebacker five, I want to say behind Nick Martin, who I thought was maybe six, who was Nick Martin, I thought was a very early pick.

Starting point is 00:15:18 And in the third round, you think that was a more appropriate time than I did for him to be picked, judging from your top 150 here. And behind guys like Chris Paul, Danny Stutzman, who go a little bit later what were your thoughts when the Bengals were on the clock in the second round, Demetrius Knight ends up being the pick, both about the pick and what you thought could have been an alternative plan. Yeah, I just thought it was a misappropriation of value, unfortunately. Like I think Demetrius Knight's a fine linebacker.

Starting point is 00:15:47 It just was not the position where you necessarily needed to take a linebacker. In this class, it felt like Jahad Campbell, Carson Swessinger were the two guys where it's like, yeah, you see starters in those two. And then after that, there really wasn't a guy who I would have taken until Nick Martin came off the board at 75. I think that was actually the next linebacker on my board was 75th overall. And so it was just not a good linebacker class. And it felt like them saying, you know, we're going to cut remain Pratt. We need an offball linebacker.

Starting point is 00:16:18 We have to get it. Let's get it here at 49 when, you know, Demetri Sites, I'm not putting it past him. He is a dog on tape. But he plays super physical. He's a hitter. He's a good straight line athlete. He's a good tackler out in space. I do worry about him in coverage a little bit, even though he has athletic tools to go sideline

Starting point is 00:16:40 and sideline range-wise. I just think he's a little stiff turning his hips, matching and mirroring. I don't think he's at his best, but he does have like a great frame for the position. He obviously hasn't played a ton of football at linebacker, so maybe there's some development there. I'm not saying he's going to be a bad player. I'm just saying, man, that was 49 overall. But like that's a top 50 pick in the NFL draft.

Starting point is 00:16:59 There are guys that came off the board that could be like Nick Scorton, a couple picks later could be a high-end edge rusher someday. You had Benjamin Morrison, who was like a first round talent at corner that fell to that point in the draft because of injury. But like there are players in the top 50 that are, it's still a premium pick. And I just, Demetri Snight's best case scenario feels like, you know, $15 million a year type of player, right? And that's just, in my opinion, misappropriating value at that point in the draft. I want to ask one follow-up question about the coverage stuff, because I agree. We've talked

Starting point is 00:17:38 about the misappropriation of value. I've talked about it as an opportunity cost of, I don't have major issues with the player. I think that he will be a starter for the Bengals. I think he'll play a lot of snaps. I think he'll be a solid player. And you talked about the skill set. It's just what are you passing on in order to make that pick? And we've talked a lot about Tate Ratledge, but you talked about some other guys there as well between Nick Skirton and Benjamin Morrison, who obviously has a lot of familiarity with how Golden being a Notre Dame guy.

Starting point is 00:18:10 There's also Trey Amos, I would throw in to the list of guys and Andrew McCuba if the Bengals were interested in the secondary, which I think they were interested in safety. Kevin Winston was a guy that we'd, We've talked about on lockdown Bengals as a guy that they may have been considering at this point. But as far as coverage concerns, is that more of a man thing with Demetrius Knight? Because it seems like in zone to me, just watching a little bit on tape.

Starting point is 00:18:39 It seems like his own instincts are pretty good. He seems like he has a pretty good understanding for the most part of what teams are trying to do from a passing concept perspective and being in the right place to try to take some of those windows away. Yeah, it's more just fluidity in space. You know, so whether that's turning and running and say like the runner in cover two or whether that's matching up on a tight end of man coverage. It's more just like having him change directions, those sort of thing. I'm not saying he's like lost. I do think he is good in zone coverage.

Starting point is 00:19:06 I mean, the guy was a former quarterback, right? He came into college thinking he was going to play quarterback. So I think he understands offense and how it works and isn't out of place and doesn't lack instinctual football plays. But it is more just I think he's a little tight hip. for an athlete to be, you know, to just reach like the pinnacle of the position at lineback. So I think you're going to give up some limitations for other strengths in this game. We did see the Bengals double dip at linebacker. So I have a little bit more on the linebacker topic.

Starting point is 00:19:38 Want to talk about Jalen Rivers and Taj Brooks as well. We'll talk about those guys. And honestly, I have a philosophical question to get to here, Mike. And we'll close the show on those topics here coming up next. So the Bengals draft the two linebackers, obviously. So they come back and draft Barrett Carter on day three, and that's a guy that they had graded at least a round, if not more, higher than where they were able to select him in the fourth round.

Starting point is 00:20:04 It was a surprising double-dip to me, to be honest. I was certain they would draft at least one linebacker, and I knew that they probably wanted to. But what was interesting to me about it the most was maybe Al Golden discussing the roles for these guys as entirely different types of players, seeing Barrett Carter as a true, like, stack potential future Mike linebacker, where he described Demetrius Knight as more of a traditional outside linebacker. Like, he could be an outside linebacker, sure, in a 4-3,

Starting point is 00:20:37 and he well do that for the Bengals. That sounds like that's going to be their base. But also in a 3-4, he feels like Demetrius Knight could line up and be a bit of a pass-rusher in that role. So when you think about these guys in the different roles they play, Does that resonate with what you thought when you were watching these guys on tape at all, if you were envisioning roles for them in the NFL? Yeah, I do think Knight can be more of like a strong side or a three, four outside linebacker,

Starting point is 00:21:01 if that's like what you're playing now. More trend more towards offball, obviously, but I think he's a much better blitzer than Bear Carter. Carter, I saw as more of a weak side linebacker, truthfully. Now, if you wanted to play him at Mike linebacker, I think you can in a pinch. I do worry about his ability to stack and chat. I think that was the biggest reason why, I don't know, after his, what was it, a sophomore year of Clemson, 2022, I was like, man, this guy is such a good athlete. He's so fluid. And I think truthfully, like they're dime linebacker, third down linebacker.

Starting point is 00:21:32 He's the best one. He is your best coverage linebacker right now on this Bengals roster. He really is fluid. He can move. He can run. He looks like a safety out there at the linebacker position. But when you ask him to go down and take on blocks and really do the dirty work, that's where I saw him struggle.

Starting point is 00:21:50 I think he got bowled over more than I'd like as a tackler in terms of just like giving up ground on contact. And so it really is the play strength and physicality with him. That's the biggest issue. That's why I trend more towards weak side linebacker with him rather than Mike linebacker. But I don't think he's completely unwilling to play blocks between the tackles. I just don't think he's particularly good at it. It sounds like the early envisaged role for Carter is, it sounds like the Bengals are going to want to match 12 personnel with base this year.

Starting point is 00:22:24 It sounds like they're going to want to put three linebackers on the field. A lot of times, and they've done this in the past, but a lot of times they would match out with five defensive linemen. A lot of times they would match out with keeping Mike Hilton on the field in the past when Mike Hilton was on the team. He won't be back this year, obviously. In that world, to me, the idea of Barrett Carter being your, I'm going to deal with the athletic tight end of that 12 personnel package makes sense to me.

Starting point is 00:22:47 And that's what Al Golden has described when you're describing the strengths and weaknesses as you see them in terms of the roles for these guys. Because also interestingly, to me, he sees it as Demetrius Knight, at least right now. We'll see what happens after he gets his hands on these guys and sees him in practice. Demetrius Knight and Logan Wilson are going to be your nickelbackers. And the backup to Logan Wilson will be Barrett Carter was what Al Golden described. What are your thoughts around that approach? Yeah, I mean, I think that makes the most sense. Like I said, Bear Carter is your best coverbacker at this point in time.

Starting point is 00:23:18 But if you're playing nickel, you still have to have two guys on the field that can really play the run. I do think, that's why I say he's more of a dime linebacker when it's like you're really not worried about the run, right? When it's like a third and long, fourth and long. That's when you probably come back on the football field. So yeah, that to me makes the most sense. You were describing Jalen Rivers as one of the upside picks here. is it just an injury question for you and the missed games throughout his time at the collegiate level? Or what about Jalen River stands out to you as an upside guy?

Starting point is 00:23:50 I think the Bengals really like the position versatility. Yeah. I think he's played a lot of tackling guard. I think he fits in far more than Dylan Fairchild does just physically along that offensive line, right? I mean, it is a mammoth tackle duo that you have there. I think with those two guys, you can do a lot of, you know, impressive stuff in gap schemes. And Jalen Rivers is a gap scheme tackle slash guard, right? Like, I remember walking past me at, I was down here at Miami's Pro Day.

Starting point is 00:24:22 And he walks past me, I'm like, that's just like, that is what it looks like when that sort of player just built differently, so to speak. Like a guy who's just long arms and not like carrying much fat to be 325. So an impressive specimen, I do think that the injuries are concerned. I don't think his tape is necessarily anything impressive in the running game as much as it should have been at his size with his physicality or with like his physical tools. So those two things come to mind. But I think he's firmly a guard at the next level who in a pinch you can throw out at a test. I think that's the idea. I've heard several people describe his pass blocking tape as boring because it just looks a little bit too easy for him at times.

Starting point is 00:25:13 Obviously, the Bengals are prioritizing pass protection. Dylan Fairchild's PFF pass protection data very strong as well. The past protection data doesn't always translate and sometimes there's technical work to be done. And the collegiate game is what it is when it comes to asking guys to hold up in pass protection, the way the Bengals are going to ask guys to hold up in true past sets. But how do you see Jalen Rivers as a hitting the ground running kind of player? Is that in the cards for him as a pass blocker? 100%.

Starting point is 00:25:41 I think there's so I did not know why I actually the Bengals day three. I did not have Barrett Carter having much lower a grade than Demetrius Knight. I didn't have Jalen Rivers having much lower of a grade than Dylan Fairchild. So like there's a very, I don't want to say good shot, but there is a shot, a real shot that River starts over Fairchild early on. He's played a lot more football. And obviously, you know, a lot of the best guards in the NFL were not guards in college. It's just easier to go from tackled.

Starting point is 00:26:12 Like, I'd rather take a tackle and put him at guard. I think that guy is more NFL ready than a guy who played guard in college because more often than not your NFL defensive tackles, not more often than not, but a lot of NFL defensive tackles you were asked to block. Well, they move like the edge rushers in college. You know, they move like the guys who you have to block out and. space. So you just get more tuned. You just the play speed and what you have to be is more like the NFL at tackle at the collegiate level than it is at guard, even if it's in the SEC like Fairchild

Starting point is 00:26:41 was. It's going to be interesting to see how those guys battled out. They might both end up starting with the Bengals, Jeff's chart on the interior offensive line. And we did talk to Mike Potts last week. And if you missed that episode, you can go check that out for the non-every-dayers out there and get his thoughts on Jalen Rivers' ability to play both sides. But last pick here before we get to this quick philosophical conversation that I want to have, Taj Brooks, 5-9-214, a very densely built linebacker, a Belcal at Texas Tech, who was extremely productive. And despite that 214 weight, a 452,

Starting point is 00:27:20 so he has some athleticism to him, a decent athletic tester for a very densely built running back. Do you have any significant thoughts around Taj Brooks as a potential compliment? A bit of a short yardage guy to go with Chase Brown? I was very surprised by that 4-5-2 because he does not run that. On tape, he's not

Starting point is 00:27:39 that. But he's also listed at 230 on tape. But he's been a guy who's really reliable runner, strong lower half, breaks a ton of tackles, just not explosive, though. So that's why I'm interested. Like, 452, if he really is going to trim down and be in better shape, there's some untapped potential there.

Starting point is 00:28:00 I think there's a very good shot. He makes the roster. He's going to make the roster. I think it's very good shot. He like gets some real touches because I don't think he's a slouch by any means. Like he's a fourth round back in a normal running back class. Like a lot of times more often than not, he's a fourth rounder than a six round, right? A talent like he is.

Starting point is 00:28:19 So I do think, yeah, maybe he's not like a super high upside guy, but I think he can run the NFL for sure. I think it's interesting that you're largely on the same page as we were for the value for the Bengals in this draft. And I like their day three. I thought the day three was a solid day three. And they've done this a couple of times lately where previously the criticism was, man, you're sent some of those late round picks on fire. Haven't felt that way this year. I don't really feel like they set any pick on fire, which kind of goes into our philosophical topic here where it seems like teams are getting a little bit better.

Starting point is 00:28:55 For the most part, there's still some outliers at drafting to consensus about not going totally off the reservation, off the map, and doing things that are totally unanticipated. And Eric Dacosta, the Ravens GM, went viral for a clip this week talking about teams are all essentially the same in terms of success rate. And so as a result, regardless of where you pick, you know, your first round pick might not, your, your first overall pick might not hit sometimes. And the 20th pick, you know, the difference in hit rate there isn't necessarily as big as you might think. And so for De Costa, the idea is, well, we should just be adding picks. So this brings me to this question of what do you think about the Bengals fit in this world where NFL teams are homogenizing the way they draft and the way that they approach a draft and their hit rates and those sorts of questions? I think a lot of it's analytics driven, where

Starting point is 00:29:55 most analytics departments are identifying the same red flag guys in rounds one, right? Like red flag production guys. Maybe they have, maybe your scouts come back and they said they have the athletic traits, but the, you know, the analytics says, eh, they're more second rounders because X, Y, Z. So I think you're getting the analytics departments are being more important, but then also, not to like to my horn as PFF, but like PFF Ultimate and the proliferation and ease of use of basically watching tape now. I talked to Rick Spielman when he first worked at CBS when I first got there and he said he got through twice as many players when they got PFF ultimate. So you're just

Starting point is 00:30:42 ability to watch more of some of these top guys and even guys down the board. I think just gives you better info and better insight into who they are. So I think it's kind of a combination of those things is that you're able to watch a lot more tape on these guys. You're able to get a lot more information background on them and you're able to have your analytics departments basically warn you about, you know, who has bigger bust potential than others. I think you are seeing a little convergence in the scouting community in terms of like

Starting point is 00:31:16 final evals. That's not say it's not everyone, but I do think you are eliminating your, you know, who is it, Torell Edmonds is of the world, your Cleland Furles top five. And some of those are just GMs that are also out of the league, right? When we don't have a Dave Gettleman in the NFL anymore, when you don't have a John Gruden in the NFL, we know in Bill Belichick, guys who are kind of siloed in the information they consume and people who are more willing to get the scouting processing, the evaluation process, be a collaborative effort between all aspects of the organization.

Starting point is 00:31:50 then you're going to kind of come to more of a consensus than ever before. Catching up to the process that we've been doing in our spreadsheet, where we've been trying to incorporate data as a risk weight, essentially, that is like, hey, maybe you really like this player on tape, but here's a reason that maybe you should pump the Briggs on the first round. I also find the PFF ultimate thing, just one more note there, just in case people don't know what it is and you're just rolling your eyes of PFF, it's just a tool for these NFL teams that allows them to say,

Starting point is 00:32:22 I want to watch all of the Y-9 snaps for PassRuster X. And then they can very easily see a cut up of, okay, here's all the snaps that this alignment, here's all the snaps of this alignment, here's all the snaps in this coverage scheme or against this route concept. It's a way for NFL teams to get a very targeted look at players. And if you're just watching tape, you're just going through a game chronologically,

Starting point is 00:32:47 you have to really pick those things apart. You need someone to go through and be a video analyst to put together these. Okay, here's all my clips of, you know, Barrett Carter running the pole in Tampa 2. And somebody has to go do that work manually where this PFF ultimate tool gives you the opportunity to automate a lot of that. And that's why a guy like Rick Spiehlman will say, I can get through so much more with that kind of tool. Yes. And when you only watch, you know, it used to be watched games, right? And if you pulled out four games of a guy, and even if it was his four best games competition,

Starting point is 00:33:19 and it's like, well, maybe he is hampering an ankle injury that half of the season. Then you missed like the four other games that he was healthy and was falling out or like, or if you just, you know, for some reason didn't see him at his best, but or missed things, you know, you missed a lot. But now in PFF, you can basically go back and be like, oh, I'll watch all the times where he, you know, positively and negatively graded where it's like they were actually, impacting a play one way or another, it just helps you drill down and watch more on a guy, cover more games, cover more time of him playing without watching all the snaps that

Starting point is 00:33:56 don't actually do anything, that don't actually, aren't actually him doing a thing that matters to the next level. Yeah, a helpful tool for sure. Last question, Mike, is what are the Bengals doing weird compared to the rest of the NFL? Because we talked about this a little bit before we started recording and you kind of were in agreement. The Bengals are a little bit weird compared to the rest of the NFL that's homogenizing. Yeah, they're not, they more just feel stuck in decision making that was kind of the norm 10 to 15 years ago.

Starting point is 00:34:28 I think they probably don't have a massive analytics staff in their ears about these guys. They probably don't have, you know, and obviously don't have a massive scouting staff. So again, we're reaching less consensus when you have fewer voices in the room. when it's just two or three opinions making this. Well, if one of them's way off the wall, all of a sudden, you know, that's what you, that you get a Demetrius Knight that we talked about, where even the biggest fans I saw of Demetrius Knight in the draft analysis space. I don't, I think Trevor at PFF was the highest I saw anyone.

Starting point is 00:35:05 And I'm not sure, I don't even know if he ended up with him in the top 50. So like it just felt like a position and sort of just a team saying, the draft hour used to be where it's like we have a need go fill that need and not listen to an analyst department say like hey you know from a team building strategy this is probably earlier than you'd like to go for a linebacker with his sort of grade because it's not going to you know save us any cap room and we need to save cap room so we should prioritize positions where you know you can find at this point in the draft that will save us money down the line that we don't have to pay 20 30 million dollars to to fill out our

Starting point is 00:35:44 roster if we want to go find that guy in free agency so i think that's where i see the bengals right now is they're they're just not necessarily keeping up with the joneses in terms of how they treat the draft classic bengals you can find mike's work on twitter at mike renter underscore you can find him on cbs sports where he does some great work both in writing and video for mike always appreciate the time and that's going to do it for this episode of the lockdown bengals podcast our next episode is focus deeply on Sharmar Stewart with Justice Muscatah and Chris Sins. Until then, thanks for listening to this

Starting point is 00:36:20 episode of the Lockdown Bengals podcast. Ho-Day. Have a good one.

Locked On Bengals - Daily Podcast On The Cincinnati Bengals - INSIGHT: Mike Renner's take on Bengals' Draft | Upside swings, but what about value?

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