Locked On Bengals - Daily Podcast On The Cincinnati Bengals - It's about time for a Cincinnati Bengals youth movement and "evaluation mode", plus thoughts on the biggest issues and Frank Pollack's future

Starting point is 00:00:00 The Cincinnati Bengals are very, very close to evaluation mode as we head into this by week. Let's break that down and more in this week's mailback. You are locked on Bengals, your daily Cincinnati Bengals podcast. Part of the Locked On Podcast Network, your team every day. What up Bengals fans and welcome to another episode of the Locked on Bengals podcast. I'm your host, Jake Liscoe. He's your host, James Rupin. We are locked on Bengals.

Starting point is 00:00:35 of the Lockdown Podcast Network covering your team every day on YouTube and everywhere you get your podcast. Welcome back to all the everydayers out there. Shout out to those of you who make us your first listen. We appreciate every one of you making us part of your routine. And if you're still here during the bye week, while you're probably looking for a place to get consistent Bengals news and analysis, and if that's you, you're in the right place. You can hit that subscribe button to make sure you don't miss an episode of Lockdown Bengals. Today we're going to dive into a mailbag in an episode brought to you by prize picks, where at prizepix.com slash lockdown NFL promo code at lockdown NFL will get you $50 instantly to play with when you play your first $5 lineup.

Starting point is 00:01:16 James, a lot of the questions in the mailbag that we solicited today on Twitter, follow at Lockdown Bengals on Twitter to get your questions in. We're pertaining to the future in varying degrees. I don't think we're exactly ready to get to some of those off-season conversations. just quite yet, but there are questions pertaining to the future that fit into the context of what's happening for the rest of this season. And a few of you had questions about managing playing time. And I think that fits into this theme of, are they getting to the point where they're in

Starting point is 00:01:51 evaluation mode? And well, we see them embrace that. And I think that's another part of the question. But Flea Higgins and Brimey 82, both asking similar questions around this topic. At what point do you shut down aging bets like Sam Hubbard to evaluate draft picks? and as the season unravels which young guys need to see more snaps to develop and which vets should see their snap counts diminish, as they're not or shouldn't be part of future plans.

Starting point is 00:02:13 Yeah, it's a loaded question because the Bengals are going to come out of the buy, whether you like it or not, thinking, okay, let's run the table here and getting them in the playoffs, and that's still their mindset. I promise you. They aren't thinking retool, rebuild, mail it in, and obviously, Joe Burrow, Jamar Chase, T. Higgins aren't going to be thinking that way either. T. Hendrickson. But you can't argue with the fact that you need to, one, figure out if these young guys can

Starting point is 00:02:47 contribute, but two, find answers anyway. It's not like the aging vets are performing the way you need them to perform. And so I do think that that's the delicate balance. I mean, you have guys, you know, Sheldon Rankins, who's been awful, quite frankly, and misses a game due to an illness. Well, how is he feeling health-wise, not just illness-wise, but injury-wise, the elbow brace, the hamstring from earlier in the year coming off of the by? Because if he's just going to be the Sheldon-Rankans that we've seen so far this season,

Starting point is 00:03:24 I don't need to see that. I know what happens to Sheldon-Rankins this off-season. And it means he's cut. and in that you need snaps for Chris Jenkins and McKinley Jackson. So I think that's the balance that we're probably not going to have a full answer to is, okay, well, can Rankins do something that he hasn't done so far this year? If not, then yeah, get these young guys in there because the results haven't been there, regardless of what these guys are making.

Starting point is 00:03:50 You know, Sam Hubbard's in that mix, too. I want to see more Miles Murphy. I think the coaching staff has been pretty impressed with Joseph Osai. I think that'll continue. Fine. There's still snaps to be. found for Miles Murphy. They're going to be forced to play Josh Newton regardless. And I think safety-wise, for me, and I've always been bullish on Tyson Anderson, I would be looking

Starting point is 00:04:15 at Tyson Anderson a bit now. He's the best gunner in football. I think he has a real chance to make the Pro Bowl as a special teamer. But can he contribute on defense? Is he better than what you have, it wouldn't hurt to take a look. So I think there's a delicate balance there. Obviously, I'm fully focused on the defense because I think that's where most of these discussions are. Yeah, I think that if you were very obvious, and Miles Murphy is the most obvious out of all of these. I know that they like what Joseph Osai is doing, and that's great and all. But Miles Murphy is a first-round pick that's going to be part of this team going forward. I think that's an obvious one. I think Jordan Battle is an obvious one. I think Jordan Battle is an obvious

Starting point is 00:04:59 one as well. You're talking about safety just because of the investment. I'm not opposed to seeing what Tyson Anderson can do out there, to your point. I'm not opposed at all to seeing what he can do and some defensive snap opportunities. But I feel like at this point, I don't know, like some of the guys that you've invested draft picks in, that's where I'm looking. And you're talking about some rookies this year, the defensive line rookies obviously, and Vig Newton. Yeah, absolutely. And you're going to see Josh Newton out of out of necessity, like you said. I also agree that there isn't going to be a huge incentive from this coaching staff or front office to get into evaluation mode

Starting point is 00:05:39 probably until they're mathematically eliminated. And that could be quite some time. I mean, they're well behind the eight ball, as we've discussed. You're talking about when they would make that switch and get into that evaluation mode. A lot of us are ready to transition to already. They're not going to do it until there's literally no way they can make the playoffs. Well, they have coaches that are coaching for their job. And that's part of it too.

Starting point is 00:06:10 You better believe there's pressure being felt. And so it's like, oh, well, put Matt Lee in and bench Alex Kappa and move Ted Karras to guard and like mess with that. Like it's like, okay, well, yeah, they aren't performing well on the interior offensive line. I get it. But is that something, Zach? Frank or insert anyone wants to do knowing what they could potentially be coaching for right now. And I do think there's some pressure there. And obviously, Lou is in the same boat with multiple guys like that.

Starting point is 00:06:41 I think that's why we've seen as much of both sides we've seen is because it's like, all right, we have to find a way to get stops, to get the most out of what we have. And he trusts Joseph a bit more. He just does. I don't know why necessarily. but that's the delicate balance here too is you have guys that are certainly coaching for their jobs. Not necessarily, Zach, but not not Zach. I think it can go either way.

Starting point is 00:07:09 I really do. Well, and that's the thing where you're talking about like guys they trust for whatever reason. Like, sure, but the guys you trust aren't getting the job done. Not to pick out Joseph O'Sye or anything, but like some of the veterans that you're putting out there, Sam Hubbard being an example that was specifically pointed out in some of the questions this week. Like, do we still need Sam Hubbard to be leading that rotation and snap count? I don't think so at this point, you know? So I think you're ready then to see what the younger guys can do in a greater sample size,

Starting point is 00:07:45 even if it still includes a healthy dose of Joseph Osai, fine. But you're not even sure that some of these younger guys can't give you the best shot of winning. And while they're not incentivized to put seventh round rookie Matt Lee on the field for those same reasons, because you don't know exactly what you're getting there, at some point, why don't you find out? And they know more than we do. They see these guys in practice and all those things. They have an idea of where they're at from a mental perspective for how they're performing in the meeting room, on the theoretical part of the game, how they're performing on the practice field and those things as well.

Starting point is 00:08:23 But at some point, you need to find out what they can do on the field. And so, well, I think that most fans, and I think we agree, are ready to see some of these younger guys to see what they have and what can be part of the core going forward. There is that balancing act, like you said, they're not eliminated. They're going to come out with that mentality of just win the rest of the games. And I don't think we're going to see this shift until, like I said, they're eliminated officially from playoff contention. Yeah. And that's why I think there still can be a balance. Tyson Anderson, I know he can tackle.

Starting point is 00:08:57 I've watched it on special teams. Is he really going to hurt you on the back end? I don't know, maybe. But I would be willing to see. And so those are, I think Jordan's gotten plenty of snaps. That's why I didn't even include him. I think he's going to be part of that. But can you make it Jordan and Tyson for a bit?

Starting point is 00:09:15 Could we see that? Because those guys are going to be on the roster next year. And I'm not sure either starting safe. is. Maybe Gino is, but I'm not sure that's necessarily going to be the case. We have plenty of questions to get to moving forward. We will answer your questions coming up next. Today's show is brought to you by prize picks. Prize picks is daily fantasy the way it should be in the best place to get real money sports action with over 10 million members and billions of dollars in awarded winnings. Prize picks has made daily fantasy sports accessible to all. All you do is pick more or less on at least

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Starting point is 00:11:43 at checkout for 15% off. Just a quick note, Jake, before we get back to the mailbag, Zach Taylor did confirm that DJ Turner had a broken clavicle will go on injured reserve. Didn't say a season is over. I think that would be more dependent on the playoff run idea of them being able to stay in it and make a push. But tough blow for the second year cornerback. Most likely a season ender.

Starting point is 00:12:12 Certainly a tough blow. You hate to see it because of the way he was playing. He was certainly flashing this year was starting to show some pretty consistent. an ability out there, wasn't making the mental mistakes that we've seen from the secondary for the last couple of years. Hopefully bright future there. I think that is a piece that we're going to see more of next year the way this year has gone. But as we discussed yesterday when we were talking about this injury and the impact there,

Starting point is 00:12:43 there need to get some help there now. It's a shame that you don't get the full, you know, seven more games, six more games, however more games are our set of snaps for him and playing time for him to see how he would hold up down the stretch. And obviously, wishing the best in his recovery. Another tough break for this team that now has lost two of their better performing corners this year. And we'll have to continue to see how some of the other options down the depth chart are

Starting point is 00:13:12 looking. Back into the mailbag, though, James, we have a question here from Blue Resident at Gem City, Bengal. They want to know what we see as the... the single biggest issue with this team. And for Blue Resident, for Gem City Bengal, it's the offense's inability to gain three yards when they need to. The short yardage game is still atrocious and seems to disappear at the worst times.

Starting point is 00:13:36 I honestly, I think, and this is really both sides of the ball. And it's kind of like a team thing. I don't think they're close to as physical as they need to be. And that doesn't mean they don't. have guys that are tough. I'm not saying that. But I think one of the toughest guys on the roster is playing quarterback. He's getting hit more than anyone.

Starting point is 00:14:04 And I think when you have that, you need these glass eaters to be glass eaters. And that mentality works for both lines. And I don't think they have enough of that on both lines. I don't know if there's enough nastiness throughout the roster. for some of these games. And the Chargers game is certainly one of them. We've seen the Browns have their number over the years. And I think part of it is there's going to be times where you have to get in the trenches.

Starting point is 00:14:36 Like, and by trenches, I don't necessarily mean just the lines and be nasty. And I just don't think they have enough of that. Now, of course, talent-wise, in the trenches that needs to be boosted too. They need to be able to get pressure. I would say if you talk about more than just the physical play, that would be it. is they have one guy that can get pressure on opposing quarterbacks. It's a quarterback's league. If the Bengals were playing,

Starting point is 00:14:59 if the Bengals offense was playing the Bengals defense, Joe Burrow would have no problem dealing with Shrey Hendrickson on the edge. He wouldn't because it's one guy. And he's getting pressured from multiple spots. Meanwhile, the Bengals can't get pressure from multiple spots. And I think that's a tough thing to deal with week in and week out. Yeah, but here we are again, ad nauseum, year after year talking about the trenches

Starting point is 00:15:25 when we're talking about some of the biggest problems or the biggest problem trying to isolate a single largest problem with the team. And it's one that we thought early in the year was a little bit better. And then interior offensive line play, I think, has deteriorated as the year has gone on. And part of this certainly is missing Orlando Brown Jr.

Starting point is 00:15:44 I think that having him out there to stabilize the left side or not having him out there to stabilize the left side in recent weeks is obviously a huge day. difference when you go from a guy that was playing pretty well, extremely well, especially in pass protection, to a guy in Cody Ford who shouldn't be playing tackle. And they've had injuries there. You know, we probably would be seeing Trent Brown if he weren't injured at left tackle and Orlando Brown were injured at left tackle.

Starting point is 00:16:13 So they've lost two of their starting tackles this year. Amarious Mims has been fine. He's a rookie tackle who's been fine for a rookie tackle. but when you look at, for example, the way the Cincinnati Bengals' offensive line tries to move the opposing defense in the run game. And you look at the way that the Cincinnati Bengals' defensive front gets moved in the run game, whether it's physicality, whether it's play strength, whether it's whatever, there's a stark difference in the way the Bengals are playing in the trenches. And I'll just isolate the trenches specifically versus the way other teams are playing in the trenches. And then you can expand that to issues dealing with stunts, which is a recurring issue for this team that's happening again this year that was on full display early against the Chargers when Joe Burrow was taking pressure on more than 50% of his snaps without Khalil Mack on the field for the Chargers in the first half of that game. Or like you pointed out, James, the inconsistency around Trey Hendrickson out there where.

Starting point is 00:17:18 when Trey Hendrickson has to deal with a really, really good offensive tackle who can contain him, there's no one to help on that Bengals defensive line in terms of getting pressure, which doesn't even mention the stuff I'm talking about earlier with the way that they're getting blown off the ball sometimes and how difficult that makes defending the run, which is something that they've dedicated extra resources to because of some of these issues. And I think that they have been somewhat respectable in dealing with run games, but at the expense, perhaps, of other parts of that defense. So, yeah, I mean, if you're looking for a single biggest issue to isolate,

Starting point is 00:17:58 it's around those units to me. And you could definitely talk about secondary as well. I think the secondary issues are a close second between Cam Taylor Britt and the safeties and the way that those guys have played collectively this year. But I think it starts up front because, you know, if you're getting, if you have two Trey Hendricks is on the field, which no one really does, let's be honest. But for the argument's sake, it's going to mask a lot of what they're dealing with in the

Starting point is 00:18:23 secondary too. And so, you know, cause and effect, you can isolate the trenches if you're trying to isolate one thing. Yeah. It's just, do you ever feel like they're going to go out physical, push another team around? You ever feel that way? No, I thought that was rhetorical. No, fair.

Starting point is 00:18:45 But like, you never feel that way going into any game. It doesn't matter what the record is of the other team. It doesn't matter if they're playing the Raiders. It doesn't matter if they're playing the Patriots week one. You thought the New England Patriots were going to be more physical. Like it's just. And just a couple of weeks ago, we're talking to Kevin. And Kevin's telling me about how the Ravens haven't been able to get pressure.

Starting point is 00:19:04 I'm like, I'm still worried about it. And then look what happened in that game. I mean, the Ravens ratchet up their pressure in that game against Joe Burrow. Yeah, for sure. I mean, hit the crap out of them. So that's frustrating. We have more when it comes to pressure on Joe Burrell. Is it reasonable to evaluate Frank Pollock right now?

Starting point is 00:19:26 Can they? With the Orlando Brown Jr. injury, we will discuss the Bengals offensive line and more coming up next. Time is our most precious commodity. So don't waste it scrolling through the same mind-nummy content for hours and hours. How can you spend it wisely to improve yourself? Our sponsor Hillsdale College is offering more than 40 free. And that's right, free online content. courses, including Constitution 101, the meaning and history of the Constitution, the great American

Starting point is 00:19:57 story, and much, much more. All of Hillsdale's courses are fast-paced, so you can start whenever, tune in wherever, plus you can go deeper with readings, quizzes, discussions, or just enjoy the lectures. All you have to do to sign up is go to Hillsdale.edu slash locked on to enroll. There's no cost, and it's easy to get started. It's hillsdale.edu slash locked on, Hillsdale.edu slash locked on. James, we have some questions about coaching to finish up the mailbag because what will we be doing talking about the Cincinnati Bengals for an episode in the bye week?

Starting point is 00:20:34 If there wasn't a spotlight on the coaching staff, like I said, a lot of the questions are talking about what coach would you like to see the Bengals hired this offseason? We're not quite there yet. We're not taking any of those today. Let's chill a little. We will get there. There's still a lot of the season to talk about. And trust me, like James and I have talked about this.

Starting point is 00:20:53 James has told me who's on his list and we won't get there. I promise you. There is a list. I'll write it on this pad one day. You should write it on that pad. And then when we talk about it in the future, you can bring that note back out. And those people that are watching right now will understand the reference. That's good.

Starting point is 00:21:12 I'm going to have to steal. I'm at my buddy's place. I'm going to have to steal his pad. That's what I'm going to have to do. I can do that. One post-in note. The next question we have. Taking the whole thing.

Starting point is 00:21:23 In the mailbag comes from Spartan at Spartan underscore ROC on Twitter. How do we evaluate offensive line coaches? Is there enough talent to fairly judge Frank Pollack at this point? I think it's a mixture that like there's obvious reasons why this team has struggled in the trenches. I think Orlando Brown Jr., who worked at the facility all offseason, was having a career year. I think Matt Lee showed some promise developing a bit. And I think Frank is probably the most likely of any coach to be gone after this year. It feels that way.

Starting point is 00:22:07 But that doesn't mean that that's going to solve the issue. And I think it's such a loaded question because, yeah, I think it's fair to evaluate Frank. He's been here since before the 2021 season. At the same time, do I blame Frank because he can't turn Cordell Volus? into a 10-year starting guard? I don't know if I blame Frank Pollack for that. Do I blame Frank Pollack because he couldn't get something out of Jackson Carmen that was never there that we knew was never there the moment they drafted him?

Starting point is 00:22:37 I don't really blame Frank for that. Do I think that he's a good coach? I do. At the same time, good coaches get fired all the time. Teams move on from good coaches all the time. And at some point, production is production. and for whatever reason, this offensive line has not produced the way they need to. And, you know, some will say, oh, well, Kappa regress.

Starting point is 00:23:01 I don't know. I don't know about that. I don't know if that's Frank's fault. It might be just the physical limitations of Alex Kappa's game. Now he's that he's getting into his late 20s, which is wild to say because it's late 20s. But that happens. It happens. The margin for error for a day two pick that was never an elite athlete.

Starting point is 00:23:21 it slips quick. I think that's, the argument would be, oh, well, Ted Karras has still played and held up pretty well. And I think he has, but he's still far from perfect, you know, and so this offensive line, it's frustrating. They're asked to do a lot because of the way this offense is set up and how they drop back as much as they do. So it's a tough ask. At the same time, I think the Bengals are going to evaluate Frank Pollack. That's the NFL game. You don't get, you don't get 15 years and everything isn't going to be hunky dory and perfect for you. Because if it was, then most coaches wouldn't get fired because most coaches know what they're talking about. And I do think Frank knows what he's talking about.

Starting point is 00:24:01 But it hasn't worked well enough. And injuries are a part of that as well. Would we be saying that if Trump Brown was healthy? I'm not sure. But when they signed him, they knew that he had a lengthy injury history. And so Orlando Brown Jr. goes down and it feels pretty rough right now in the trenches overall with the interior breaking down the way it has. It's the same confusion or difficulty in extracting and isolating coaching versus the front office decisions

Starting point is 00:24:33 that we've talked about with a lot of the coaches. It's extremely hard with the Bengals because we know the coaching staff is involved with player acquisition, but at the same time, we know that sometimes they go rogue in the front office and pick guys that the coaching staff doesn't sign off on. and Jackson Carmen, I think, is the example where we think that's what happened. There wasn't a wholesale buy-in from the coaching staff on that pick, we think. But as you said, James, at some point your production is your production. You go back to 2021, and the Bengals certainly had injuries that year.

Starting point is 00:25:08 They ranked fourth to the bottom, according to PFF and team pass blocking. They were a bottom 13 unit in run blocking. I think that's maybe their best run blocking year in 2022. they were the second worst pass blocking team in the NFL according to pro football focus. They were the again 12th worst run blocking team in the NFL according to pro football focus. Last year, 2003 was actually their best year, I believe, in pass blocking under Frank Pollock at 11th worst in the NFL, run blocking 11th worst in the NFL in 2024 this year. Ninth worst pass blocking grade in the NFL. And again, they've been dealing with injuries, but dead last in run blocking in the NFL.

Starting point is 00:25:50 Yep. And some of it is talent, some of it is injuries. And I think Alex Kappa fits into this category as well when you're looking at his performance this year. I think that his perceived regression is not necessarily just him aging. It's also to do with recovering from injuries and those sapping some of your athleticism. And like you said, when you're already a limited athlete and you lose some of that, it can show up. But some of the consistent issues that we've seen continue to be issues. And maybe it's not even that Frank is a bad coach. Maybe it's a scheme fit issue. Maybe it's a talent issue. Maybe Frank will go somewhere else and he'll get what he wants more frequently and we'll see those impacts. I mean, a guy that we think is a great offensive line coach, Bill Callahan in Tennessee right now, is also coaching the second worst run blocking unit in the NFL. And the fifth worst pass walking unit in the NFL in Tennessee.

Starting point is 00:26:46 Meanwhile, there's some coaches where you can tell that they're getting the most out of their players. Mackay Beckton in Philadelphia, a prime example of this where the guys playing really well at Guard. And it's a confidence that that would have been the case in Cincinnati. So whether it's a scheme fit perspective where Frank's coming from this wide zone world that the Bengals simply don't live in on offense, is a talent issue, is it a getting his guy's issue, is it an injury? issue, at some point, the bottom line needs to be with the guy that's running the unit. And so the question of whether or not it's fair, I think is difficult, to be honest, for all of these reasons.

Starting point is 00:27:30 But the way the NFL goes is if you're not getting results, at some point you need to move on and try something different. And barring a major turnaround here, because you know, never say never kind of mentality, that seems to be where the Bengals are. Yeah. And there is a huge issue in the evaluation process that, like, for example, they pass on Creed Humphrey for Jackson Carmen. Then the next year, we talk about Tyler Linderbaum a ton. I'm all in on Linderbom. Wanted him badly. And he didn't fall to them. The Ravens, I think, traded up for him at 25 overall, if I remember correctly. But had he fallen to them, they weren't taking him, which is something's wrong there. Because Tyler Linderbom is really good. I don't care. if he doesn't have those size you want. He's been pretty darn good in the AFC North. So that has nothing to do with Ted,

Starting point is 00:28:24 but if you have Linderbaum, then Ted could have been one of your guards, and then you're not putting Cordell out there early. Maybe he can develop. Maybe Frank does have time to develop. Like, it just, there's so many ripple effects that not drafting the right guys has had. And so who knows, but I do, I would be,

Starting point is 00:28:45 unless they make a run here. They got to make a run. Otherwise, I think that there's going to be some significant changes on the coaching staff. And Frank would probably be the Fandall favorite if there were odds to be out, I would say. Yeah, it's a tough situation to be in. It's a tough situation to even talk about, like I said with this team, because you can't separate some of the coaching stuff from some of the front office stuff very cleanly.

Starting point is 00:29:10 You don't know exactly where those lines are. But at some point, the product on the field leads to changes. And the first thing to change with the Bengals, especially given their structure, is with the coaching staff. Because some of the job security with the front office is either entrenched in ownership or just seems pretty untouchable. Which what a shock that would be if one day there were a significant change to the personnel staff. I mean, it's hard to even fathom right now, to be honest. that's going to wrap up this mailbag tomorrow we're going to get into some expectations from the preseason versus the reality that we've watched in season where the disappointments are trying to find somebody who's outpaced expectations that will be the next show here on lockdown bangles as we continue to get through this my week until then thanks for listening to this episode hooday and have a good one

Locked On Bengals - Daily Podcast On The Cincinnati Bengals - It's about time for a Cincinnati Bengals youth movement and "evaluation mode", plus thoughts on the biggest issues and Frank Pollack's future

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