Locked On Bengals - Daily Podcast On The Cincinnati Bengals - Joe Burrow's CRUCIAL Training Camp Mission | Can Bengals' QB find the answer to slow starts?

Starting point is 00:00:00 Let's talk about what Joe Burrow needs to do to help the Cincinnati Bengals avoid the slow start narrative in 2025. You are Locked on Bengals, your daily Cincinnati Bengals podcast. Part of the Locked On Podcast Network, your team every day. What up, Bengals fans, and welcome to another episode of the Lockdown Bengals podcast on the Lockdown Podcast Network, your team every day. I'm Jake Liskow, he's James Rapine, and we've been hosting the Lockdown Bengals podcast. collectively since 2016. So if you're looking for the best place for daily news and analysis on your Cincinnati Bengals, this training camp is ramping up and you want to know what to expect from the Bengals this season.

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Starting point is 00:01:06 You can make Lockdown Bengals your first listen. And many of you, I know already do. We appreciate all of you out there that have those good listening habits very much. Today's episode is brought to you by Game Time. If you're looking for some tickets, maybe for a Cincinnati Bengals game, you can save $20 on your first purchase in the GameTime app with promo code, Lockdown NFL. James, today we dive into the beginning of our training camp preview.

Starting point is 00:01:31 and after we just spent an episode talking about Joe Burrow on quarterback on Netflix. Now we're going to talk about Joe Burrow the quarterback and what we're looking for from Burrow in training camp, what our expectations are for his participation throughout the process and how this period will be crucial potentially. And once again, trying to solve this slow start problem. Yeah, the slow start thing is going to be a thing until it's no longer a thing. So the Bengals certainly hope that they're going to be able to address it. Joe certainly feels, to me at least, from outside looking in, that he's still working through some kinks wristwise. But obviously that didn't get in the way last year when he threw for almost 5,000 yards and 43 touchdowns and broke multiple franchise records.

Starting point is 00:02:23 And so for me, expectations are that he can find a way to hit the ground running, are that he can come in and play. at the have the best September of his career. He's really, really good in December. And you got to get there and all of those things. But I think that it's realistic to think that Joe Burrow, given that he has Jamar and T. back and signed and happy, Mike Gisicki back in the mix. But we've, we've talked about Chase, but all these skill guys that we're going to highlight this week, there's no reason why Joe shouldn't be able to start out better, even with the questions in the offensive line room and some new coaches and all those things, Joe should be maybe not his best self

Starting point is 00:03:10 because I do think that every quarterback uses September to tinker a little bit and it takes a little bit of time to be playing your best ball. But he should be playing really darn well and hit the ground running here this season. Yeah, if you can get a full season of December Joe Burrow, that's different from what we've seen from Joe Burrough throughout his career. What we've seen from Joe Burrough throughout his career is already an incredible quarterback. But there's another level there that he gets to as a year goes on. He talked about that recently.

Starting point is 00:03:36 And that, I think, is the idea, as we again discussed recently, have discussed throughout this offseason, that Joe's going to try to play a little bit more in this offense and these starters on both sides of ball. They're going to try to play a little bit more in the preseason. And we'll see how that matters. I think that that is something that will obviously be scrutinizing closely when it gets to be time for those preseason games

Starting point is 00:03:59 and how that impacts Joe Burrow, if we see any evolution from preseason game one to preseason game two, if that's even going to be possible to see with the way teams play in the preseason and how simple things are kept in the preseason. But as far as training camp goes, we have this continuity. We always talk about continuity at this time of year. And last year we talked about continuity in a different way. but this year it is no skill guys, like he talked about James.

Starting point is 00:04:31 It's Jamar Chase, it's T. Higgins, it's Andre Yoseva, this Mike Keseki, is Chase Brown. It's the return of Somaget P. Ryan, the return of the beard and the continuity that came with Somaget P. Ryan, and that being a guy that Joe Burrough trusts. And this year, that is where the notable continuity is on offense. Obviously, center tackles, got continuity there as well. overall on the offensive line though

Starting point is 00:04:58 hard to say that that's a unit that feels like it's very stable year over year with the new offensive line coach changes a guard but what we talked about in terms of the chemistry that exists there the experience that exists between Joe Burrow

Starting point is 00:05:16 and his skill players you'd like to see that playing up in training camp and it's something that we talked about throughout the offseason program as well but instead of the catching people up on things, which the players have talked about as well, and trying to acclimate guys to the system, it's the graduate level, postgraduate level, PhD level, like, here are the little things that we can do on the margins to really get more out of this offense between

Starting point is 00:05:45 Joe Burrow and the skill players. And I'm very interested to see how that plays out in training camp. Well, it's the little things that Joe is going to notice. We talked to a, a few days ago about quarterback and the conversation with Jamar that Joe had where he's recalling a route from LSU. And he's like, oh, you remember that route at LSU? The more you play with guys when you're Joe, the more you remember, the more they remember. So can you imagine? He's like, oh, Mike, well, the route you ran last year against this team, do that, but, and then

Starting point is 00:06:18 you add this to it. And maybe that's the difference in some of these tight games, some of these gotta have it moments, whether it's third down, whether it's fourth down, whether it's a two-point conversion on the road. All of these things that we know decide games, and the Bengals went deep into the playoffs. It was one or two plays. And last year, it was one or two plays. They weren't all on offense, but some of them were. I think people forget that.

Starting point is 00:06:42 And Joe knows that for sure. And so I think that's where maybe he's going to just be more in rhythm with his guys, hopefully from the jump. and so it isn't pressure packed in November and December and early January more so than than seating purposes, right? But I do think that when you invest the money they did in Jamar, T, Mike, all right, well, now how can Joe get more out of those guys or help this offense get to another level? I think it's there. I think they have another gear they can get to.

Starting point is 00:07:21 and it isn't just as simple as our well the offensive line needs to play better huge part of it but i do think that the the joe there's some meat on the bone there and i think he knows it especially early on in the year and for him to have a fully healthy off season and that's what he had i think that that's that that goes a long way even though he's working through that wrist a little bit he's been able to to focus on little things sharpening all the little tools so when training camp rolls around next week, he's ready to go. Yeah, I think it's different from years past. And how much is that familiarity in that drive to elevate from a quarterback and skill

Starting point is 00:08:01 player perspective, how much does that help coaches with like details? We hear coaching staffs talk about details all the time. The familiarity with the system, the familiarity with each other, the cohesive understanding of what defenses are trying to do to them that has been developed. over time. How much does that lead to the ability to elevate what you can do as an offense? Not necessarily, strictly speaking, more complex, but does that help them diversify further and add to the toolkit? I would think that it would. And we're once again, I'm sure James going to be talking about, are we going to see Joe Burrow under center again in training camp?

Starting point is 00:08:49 and going through all the play action under center stuff that we've seen. There's been a point of emphasis seemingly for the last two years. And then you get to the season and you don't see it as much, especially when Eric all got hurt and that really changed things last year. But we're going to see more of that? Are we going to see that sort of stuff again as Joe Burrow continues to get more comfortable in that setting? Or is it going to be a different approach? I think that is another thing that I'm interested in in seeing where Joe is

Starting point is 00:09:18 in terms of that part of this game. Yeah. How are they built for that? Not having Eric all matter. Like that's a factor. And last year down the stretch, when they were leaning on Chase Brown, it was a lot of gun stuff. And just because they weren't great in short yardage, I wonder if that'll be part of it,

Starting point is 00:09:40 but not a huge part of it. We'll see plenty more to discuss when it comes to Joe Burrow. When it comes to this offense, we'll continue the conversation coming up next. Today's show is brought to you by game time. We've all been there, logging early, waiting forever for concert tickets to go on sale, only to lose your spot because, well, there might be a glitch or maybe you're waiting all day, hoping to get picked and you don't get picked. Well, live music should be about making memories, not dealing with finding a way to get tickets.

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Starting point is 00:10:51 Again, all you have to do is creating an account, redeem code, L-O-C-K-E-D-O-N-N-N-FL-L-N-FL-N-FL-N-FL-N-FL-FL-E-L-N-FL-E-L-N-FL-E-L-L-E-L-N-E-L-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-L-E-R-E-E-L-E-R-E-E-R-E-E-R-E-E-R-E-E-R-E-E-R-E-E-R-E-E-R-E-E-R-E-E-E- will be fascinating conversations and seeing where the offense is because the offense is built around Joe Burrow. And, you know, Ben Baby pointed this out over on ESPN.com. Joe Burrow wants a running game. He talked about that in quarterback last week, too. The ability to develop a running game would go a long way for Joe Burrow.

Starting point is 00:11:46 So that's why I bring up the undercenter stuff and seeing where the offense goes in that sense. And the other thing that's always interesting is what is Joe Burrough's mission for this year? Coming into Camp Healthy, a big difference from recent years. So where last year there was this big emphasis on how can he improve the dynamic athleticism of his game and be more of a threat with his legs and working on strengthening his lower body to break tackles and all those things because he could, right?

Starting point is 00:12:21 Like he was limited a little bit with his wrist, but his lower body, wasn't limited at all. It's always interesting to see where his, what is the thing that I'm going to focus on? What skill am I interested in refining the most in training camp? And do you have any ideas there? I mean, he plays us pretty close to the vest, obviously. Yeah, I think the thing that he's always focused on is like the,

Starting point is 00:12:46 at least the past couple of years is the off platform, not set, the jump throws, all of those things. he doesn't have the strongest arm in the world. And I think he's as accurate as they come when he's set. But it's those things. And he's gotten much better at it, I think, over the past year or two. And so that's the thing I notice. But he'll go into his, bigger, faster, stronger, all of those things that he tries to focus on. But I think that's it. I think when someone's bearing down on you and you can't step into a throw, can you still get it and rip it. where you want to get it to. And that's something I've seen him focus on for sure. And I do think it's been a focus this offseason as well.

Starting point is 00:13:31 Yeah, it's a thing that kind of always has been invisible in training camp practices and certainly has been notable in offseason practices. This year was notable in training camp practices last year. What do you think the most important thing for Joe Burrow to accomplish in this training camp is going to be? Well, it's twofold. One, it's always going to be health, especially coming into training camp. You just want him feeling great. How many seasons has he felt great going into them?

Starting point is 00:14:07 His rookie year? And then I think that was a weird year. It was a super weird year. Probably felt pretty good at the beginning of the training camp before. He got appendicitis that year. And then he had appendicitis. Yeah, I heard he felt great. But then he had the appendicitis.

Starting point is 00:14:24 and this appendix burst and everything, you know, he weighed a buck 50, not really that low, but I mean, he lost a lot of weight. So that would be one health. Just being Joe, week one would be it. But then two, however he reads defenses, obviously he sees it as well as anyone and probably the best in football when he's there. And in it and locked in. Not that he hasn't been locked in at the beginning of the year, but you can see the difference late in the season. versus early.

Starting point is 00:14:57 How does he get there? Is it preseason reps? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, preseason reps are vanilla defenses. And, okay, so I don't know.

Starting point is 00:15:07 I don't know what it's going to be, but whatever it is, figure out the routine. So when week one rolls around, you're seeing it enough and you're trusting it enough to let it rip when you need to. So when it's seven to three

Starting point is 00:15:19 in the second quarter against Cleveland and it's third and three, and you can either go up 14 to 3 and just completely put a bad Browns team in a bad spot. You don't hold the ball, get sacked, crowd goes wild. It's those type of moments. However, he can get himself ready for that, do it. And it's not just on him, obviously, there are least season struggles.

Starting point is 00:15:45 But I'm sure he looks back at a lot of these weeks. I should have been better, especially last year against a Patriot's team that was just awful. And the Bengals knew they were awful. There was no one in the building after that game, Jake, that was like, oh, well, yeah, the Patriots are going to sneak up on teams. No, they were like, I can't believe we lost that game. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:16:08 Can't repeat that little bit of history, recent history. And here's my argument for why, and I'm sure I've said stuff like this before, why the preseason could help Joe Burrow, even if it is vanilla defenses. Because even if you're getting very basic coverages and very basic defensive line play in terms of stunts and games and basic blitzes, if you get any blitzes. And I wonder how much dialogue there will be between Zach Taylor and opposing head coaches in the preseason? Probably not much. That's more of a joint practice thing. But Burroughs seen pretty much everything defenses can throw at him at this point.

Starting point is 00:16:53 he's been in the league long enough. Teams are doing different stuff to him every week. He's having to diagnose on the fly every week. So as much as it's getting a feel for what opposing defenses are trying to do for him, I think it's also just speed, just living through the speed of a live play with guys that are really going to come and hit him and finding the timing for like, okay, yeah, it's cover two. I know what to do against cover two, but let me feel that speed

Starting point is 00:17:26 and just getting that, getting used to that. So even if it is basic, that to me is the upside. Obviously, you got to keep him healthy. You got to limit hits. You got to coach smart. You got to block well,

Starting point is 00:17:39 all those things. But just getting that exposure to, okay, it's cover one, here's me reacting to cover one, just getting those reps under his belt. Even if it is basic. that that's appealing to me given what we know about how Joe Burrow

Starting point is 00:17:56 kind of processes and gets better over time in the season. Yeah, but it's a really good point because there's no joint practice, there's no practice, doesn't matter what happened. You better not touch the merchandise. You better not get the Joe Burrow and even touch him, let alone hit him.

Starting point is 00:18:18 Of course, he must be hit, James. A little bit. bit, right? Like, yeah. To your point, the speed is the way to put it. Like, I don't think he wants to be hit ever. But knowing that they aren't going to hold up and, and slow down, and they are going to hit you. I think it's like, oh, oh, we're playing football now. And it's, that matters some. And by the way, players used to always play in the preseason. It used to always be a thing. Joint practices never used to be a thing. And so I, I, I, I guess. that and if that's what it takes and maybe it will to turn Joe's supercomputer brain all the way on

Starting point is 00:18:59 for the next season then he'll be just fine and we'll see I think it's it is going to be nerve rocking though watching it's it's going to be because you you just you know it's meaningless football but it'll mean a lot if he's ready to go with that jb9 processing system boot it up and ready to go in Cleveland on September 7th. Yeah, that's all you're really looking for to get to the regular season. Health and get them primed. That's the engine that's going to make the team go. We'll finish up the quarterback training camp preview.

Starting point is 00:19:38 We're focused on Joe Burrow here. Let's be real. To finish this episode coming up next. Jake, I saw something last week. It might have been PFF, but it was something where Joe Burroughs projected to lead the NFL and passing yards again, lead the NFL and passing touchdowns again. Where's your expectations for him? Do you think he's just going to do that and set another franchise record, 5,000 plus,

Starting point is 00:20:07 45 touchdowns and do that? Like, is that where you're at for him as a whole? Because even if he starts low, we've seen him. He's going to put up numbers, set records last year. I sort of think that'll have similar numbers, even if they drop a little bit. but what do you think? I don't see a great reason not to think. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:20:30 He's going to repeat that season. That's a good way to put it. I don't think that anything that he did last season is particularly unsustainable the way that people, not teams, people were critical of the 9-8-9 season when all I was was throwing go-ball to Jemar Chase. People are like, ah, they're not going to keep that up. Teams are going to take that away.

Starting point is 00:20:53 And they take it away a little bit, but can they improve the offense as they iterate the offense? The big question is really the offensive line. But for Joe Burrow, I really don't see any reason to think he's slowing down at all. And the way that he plays and the strengths of his game don't necessarily expose themselves to significant risk that comes with just. you know, precipitous cliff and just falling off it. Like that's just, it's not like if Joe,

Starting point is 00:21:31 Joe loses a step, he's suddenly a terrible quarterback. That's not, I mean, he has athleticism, don't get me wrong, but that's not how he wins on a play to play basis.

Starting point is 00:21:42 And all of the stable stuff for Joe Burrow and PFF talks a lot about stable, stable passing metrics, the clean pocket performance, all that decision making, when, when things are, on schedule for Joe

Starting point is 00:21:55 have been stable his entire time in the NFL and have been great the entire time he's been in the NFL. And then Jay Morrison, who did a great job covering this for Bengalsawks with you, James, talked about how good he's been. And I think Warren Sharp also talked about this out. I think it was Warren Sharp. Or no, it was Brett Coleman.

Starting point is 00:22:18 How his numbers, when he's pressured, or there's hardly a falloff. Joe Burrow under pressure's performance last year was great. That is less stable, but Joe generally has been as good as you could hope the quarterback could be under pressure, obviously, because he's under pressure so much and it's ever just still really good. So, yeah, I don't see any real compelling argument to think there's a falloff coming unless the guards are just catastrophic,

Starting point is 00:22:45 but they were already pretty much there last year. Yeah, they were. They were. And that's my, almost my fear, though, is, is that, like, that would be the thing is, everything he did is sustainable. But you can't take as many hits. Can't do it. Like, you talked about it on last show. By the way, if you just finished quarterback, check out our, our reaction to it from last week. But, like, I don't want to hear Joe or, wonder if Joe's neck, like he thought his neck was broken. And I know big hits happen. And it's the AFC North and there's going to be a ton of pass rushers and all of that. But hopefully, like earlier in this show, you were like, well, the play action stuff. And I do wonder, like, is this offensive line now? Like Dylan Fairchild, the one thing that you hope he can do is pass block. Lucas Patrick. And by the way, I think those are going to be the starting guards. Spoiler for

Starting point is 00:23:44 when we talk offensive line. We'll see if it happens. But he's a quality pass blocker. based on some advanced numbers, if you were going to pick a strength of his, you'd damn sure better be able to pass protect for Joe Burrow because they're going to throw it all over the field. And that's what you need to do. And so in the past, yeah, we've talked about play action and all that. Can you drop back 40 times and keep nine clean?

Starting point is 00:24:11 It's a tall task. I know that, but that's the task that they're going to have. And if they can do that, then, yeah, there's no reason why Joe can't be. the league leader in really any statistical category when it comes to touchdowns, passing yards, anything like that. Completion percentage, he's capable of leading in all those categories. If he is dropping back 40 times a game, you should probably lead in the counting stats.

Starting point is 00:24:39 It's the rate stats that become more of a question. But if Joe Burrow is leading the league in passes, he should also lead the league in a bunch of categories because he's really good. And so if the really good court, the best of the really good quarter, you know, if say you take the four really good quarterbacks, if they're all throwing the ball an equal amount of times, maybe it gets interesting.

Starting point is 00:24:59 But if Joe's throwing 50 more passes than all those other guys, yeah, you would expect him to lead the league in those categories. I'm interested to see what the offense looks like more than anything and how they build it around Joe Burrow with all the continuity they have with the skill players and what Burroughs preferences are and how they've evolved. for things like motion at the snap and, you know, receiver alignment and the under center stuff. And I'm going to keep mentioning it,

Starting point is 00:25:26 but it does dovetail into the skill player conversation and a bigger structural conversation around the offense in general. They were really good when they had Jamar Chase in motion last year. Jamar Chase was really good when he was in motion at the snap last year. He was really good in the slot last year. And this is more of a conversation that we'll get into when we get to the skill players. But Joe's comfort level with that stuff also matters a lot in terms of how much they're going to use it. We know that going back to LSU, Burroughs preference, get five guys out in the pattern.

Starting point is 00:25:57 A lot of times static pre-snap because he gets a lot of information that way as well. And so finding the optimal alignment of how much you're moving guys around, how much you're getting guys spread out, those questions will be really interesting to see if we can start to get some of those answers in training camp when we start to see them going into the team you know the 11 on 11 move the ball drills those sorts of things what are the trends that we're seeing in terms of pre-snap and alignment those are always things that interest the maybe you call me a football nerd for it but always things that interest me sure absolutely the motion all of the all of the things that maybe they can evolve and build on.

Starting point is 00:26:46 The taste brown use here. There's a bunch of things. And you know what the beauty is, Jake? The beauty of this conversation? Tell me. It's football. It's football time. We have made it.

Starting point is 00:26:59 Five days a week. And we're actually talking football now. All the drama, all the, I mean, it does feel like ages ago when we were thinking. Oh, it's coming back in the near future. Yeah. That is the other thing I was going to mention. distractions, but it's not really relevant on the offensive side of the ball. No, it's not really relevant to Joe Burrow.

Starting point is 00:27:19 You know, and that's part of the leadership element, that leadership quality is I think he's good at keeping the blinders on and focusing on training camp, which should help because there probably are going to be a few distractions during camp. Yeah. The leadership question, another one that's interesting is, is do we see any evolution in terms of on-fields? leadership in the locker room leadership?

Starting point is 00:27:46 Is that something that is visible to us? Or those in the media from the training camp perspective will be something that takes time and takes getting into the regular season? I think that'll be interesting as well. We didn't really talk about the backups here at all, James, just to wrap up the show here. Jake Browning will be the backup quarterback for the Cincinnati Bengals in 2025, barring some unforeseen circumstance.

Starting point is 00:28:14 Logan Woodside and Payton Thorne will be with the team in the preseason. Logan Woodside is very likely destined for the practice squad, or maybe they'll do another surprise and they'll go find another practice squad quarterback. But we're not too far off, James, from talking about finding a new backup for Joe Burrow, Jake Browning under team control, I believe, for the final season in 2025. Yeah, you're right. and I think that they'll be in the quarterback market at some point. And I don't think Logan Woodside's the long-term backup backup.

Starting point is 00:28:52 I think Jake Browning is a really solid quality backup quarterback. He's valuable. And those are going to be the two quarterbacks, Joe Burrow and Jake Browning, two J.Bs. And then after that, it's Logan Woodside trying to prove that he deserves that practice squats, but we'll see if that works out. I think it will from everything I hear about him. works hard and knows the offense and all of those things. But I think they end up keeping two quarterbacks.

Starting point is 00:29:19 And that's a heck of a tandem, honestly. Jake Browning is developed into a nice backup. And if you need them here or there, it's a lot better than a lot of these backup quarterback situations or even starting situations in some instances. The luxury there is that he's cost controlled. And whether or not the Bengals choose to extend Browning, for, you know, going rate backup quarterback money, which is a whole lot more significant

Starting point is 00:29:50 than the million dollars or so he's scheduled to make this year. Or if the Bengals choose to say cheap there, that'll be interesting. Because speaking of continuity, that's another bit that has been steady for Joe Burrow in terms of having the backup quarterback on the sideline with him and Jake Browning for, what, four years now? Three, three.

Starting point is 00:30:10 Three years? Still, your point is, is a valid one. Yeah, Brandon Allen exists. Don't forget about Brandon Allen. I'm sorry, Brandon Allen. That's going to do it for this episode, previewing what we're hoping to see

Starting point is 00:30:24 from Joe Burrow in this preseason and training camp process in 2025. We're going to keep on going. Training camp previews all week here on lockdown Bengals. Until next time, thanks for listening. Ho-Day. And have a good one.

Locked On Bengals - Daily Podcast On The Cincinnati Bengals - Joe Burrow's CRUCIAL Training Camp Mission | Can Bengals' QB find the answer to slow starts?

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