Locked On Bengals - Daily Podcast On The Cincinnati Bengals - MAJOR progress on Bengals stadium deal, AND dissecting Duke's "We Have Starters" claim ahead of 2025 Draft

Starting point is 00:00:00 We've got major progress to talk about. The Cincinnati Bengals in Hamilton County have made a major agreement on a new pay court lease. You are locked on Bengals, your daily Cincinnati Bengals podcast. Part of the Locked on Podcast Network, your team every day. What up Bengals fans and welcome to another episode of the Locked on Bengals podcast. Part of the Lockdown Podcast Network, your team every day. I'm Jake Liskow. James Rapine, and we've been covering the Cincinnati Bengals here on lockdown Bengals collectively since 2016.

Starting point is 00:00:41 And you can also find more of James Rapine's work over at bengalsot.com where he covers the Bengals as well. Today we dive into major progress on the Hamilton County and Cincinnati Bengals reaching a milestone in least negotiations. It's not a done deal yet, but we've got major progress. Plus, I wanted to circle back at the end of yesterday's episode to Duke Tobin's claim that they're just aren't. rookie starting spots available and that they're chock full of starters on the roster right now. We're going to dive back into that one and then finish up with some players that maybe we haven't talked about enough in this draft cycle as potential future Cincinnati Bengals. Welcome back to the everydayers.

Starting point is 00:01:23 Welcome back to those of you who make locked on Bengals your first listen. Today's episode is sponsored by Fandul where right now new customers can get $250 in bonus bets when your first $5 bet wins. And James, we've got major progress on a new stadium deal, a milestone of sorts reached between the city and the team. Yeah, huge news happening on Tuesday morning. And look, this was always, I've been asked about this a lot over the past, say, a couple weeks to a month, especially when that guy at Pro Football Talk wrote about the

Starting point is 00:02:01 Chicago land idea. And like people were legitimately like, hey, could the Bengals move? And I was like, there's a very little chance they move. And if they move, they're moving counties. Like they may move a few miles into Kentucky. Like if that does happen, I don't think that they're moving and leaving the tri-state area. But I still felt like just with those conversations in person with people, that there was still some doubt, some concern. Well, this can put that to bed.

Starting point is 00:02:35 Now, we're going to discuss the details. It still needs to be approved by the county. That vote will take place next week. But when they announce something like this, where they come to a thumbs-up agreement, everyone seems to be able to hammer out the major details. It's kind of like the Jamar and T thing, a much bigger scale. But once you get to this point, it could take a little time, but it feels like they're at a point where things are going to get done before that June 30th extension deadline. And in that deadline from a long-term deal perspective.

Starting point is 00:03:17 So this is great news. It's great news for the Bengals. I think it's great news for Hamilton County. And it's great news for Bengals fans and locked on Bengals listeners and all of the above because it means that the Bengals are staying put. but on the banks at the Ohio and Paycor Stadium is going to be the home of the Bengals for a long time. Yeah, the good news is that it could mitigate drama to me. This doesn't necessarily have to be something we're talking about when training camp rolls around. Maybe we're talking about it into June.

Starting point is 00:03:47 Maybe things will come close to June 30th. And I wouldn't rule that out. We'll talk about the details here and why I wouldn't rule that out. But it curtails a drama to some degree. It signals significant progress. and it involves a bit of an outstanding question as to where the funding is coming from, and that's what will have to be hammered out

Starting point is 00:04:08 between the vote next Tuesday, assuming that it goes as expected and June. But what has happened is that the county and the team have agreed to, this is a new term for me, a memorandum of understanding, which is not something that I've ever heard of before, with the Cincinnati business courier the first to report that the agreement is essentially that the team and county will work together on an $830 million renovation project that will

Starting point is 00:04:40 involve funding from the team, that will involve funding from the city and both, sorry, the county and both the county and the team will be seeking funding from external sources that include the state. And as part of the agreement, it involves numerous occasions in bullet points that have the Bengals and the county collaborating on securing that funding, including that state funding. And so that is the remainder of the work to be done, assuming that the, again, this term memorandum of understanding that you're going to see abbreviated as MOU and you're going to not know what the heck that means is voted on and approved next week.

Starting point is 00:05:23 I feel slightly less sure about this, James. You likened it to the Jamar Chase and T. Higgins final days when we knew that that was essentially done and we were waiting for the, you know, quote unquote, official go ahead from the agent and players that it was done. I'm a little bit less certain about it just because this is local politics involved, right? Or politicians involved? Who knows, right? But it's very likely that given the news today, you should see this MOU approved next week. and then some work remaining to be done to secure all of the outstanding funding sources that the team and county are seeking. Yeah, with deals like this, it just there's more to it.

Starting point is 00:06:08 So, yeah, you're right to be a tad more skeptical. Like, we knew Jamar and T were done. And it was the behind the scenes there was getting the guys into the states and getting them back to this country and then going from there. This is obviously different. It's banking on a few things. But honestly, my biggest concern was the county and the Bengals finding common ground in being able to find that area. I've said it a bunch of times on the pod.

Starting point is 00:06:39 You're probably sick of me saying it. And maybe our everydayers are too. But like the county got its butt kicked in the 90s during the stadium deal. And they were well aware of that. And they clearly didn't want that to be. the way it felt this time. And the Bengals had a great deal and have a great deal. And they probably knew they would have to bend some, but can they find that common ground? I was legit wondering if that would be possible. And not that they were moving. I didn't think they would become the

Starting point is 00:07:10 St. Louis Bengals. Like, I didn't think that. But I thought that they could potentially move counties. I thought that was a very real possibility that the Bengals didn't prefer, but had to be open to in their mind and that Hamilton County deep down didn't want but when you're playing the negotiating game you have to be at least semi open to talking the talk and in potentially going down that that path of walking it and the good news is is the fact that they found common ground this early I mean pre-draft two plus months ahead of that deadline early I think that that a if it is or I I thought this would be something that would, maybe June 22nd, they get a memorandum of understanding. I googled it, by the way, to figure out what MOU.

Starting point is 00:07:57 I've heard of IOUs. I haven't heard of no MOU. I've heard of the MCU. I haven't heard of Emma, you know, but yeah, I think, and I don't think we're alone in that bucket, by the way, of not knowing the MOU. But a memorandum of understanding is a memorandum of understanding, and it is good news for all involved. Classic local politics terminology.

Starting point is 00:08:17 So the Bengals and Hamilton County have agreed to turn. on an agreement, that they will continue to work toward an agreement. It's an announcement of an announcement a little bit, but it is significant progress that indicates that they have found that common ground, like you said. They've got an understanding of where the funding will coming from, WLW, even sharing some screenshots that include what the team is funding in phase one of a multi-phase project, which includes club lounge renovations and renovation of suites, concession improvements and some stadium beautification improvements, whereas the county is in line to fund

Starting point is 00:08:54 vertical transportation, so elevators, escalators, electrical power, and code upgrades, sweet seats, and the jungle vision control room listed in some of those photos or screenshots shared from WLW. you. So some concrete ideas here in place and this agreement and certainly significant progress and something that should ease the mind of Bengals fans that were concerned about the team leaving Cincinnati. Yep. Great news. And it's great news and what hopefully is a great week for the Bengals, a big week for the Bengals, because while they need starters, at least we think so, Duke Tobin doesn't. We'll get to that coming up next. Today's show is brought to you by America's number one sports book, Fandle,

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Starting point is 00:10:50 At the end of our show yesterday, James, we got to a Duke Tobin quote from his pre-draft presser that demanded more conversation. And we often don't have the opportunity to circle back to topics like this. But this one, I thought we would. Duke Tobin, as part of that presser claiming or stating or lying directly that the Cincinnati Bengals don't have a bunch of starting means. They have starters across the board was essentially the Duke Tobin claim. There's not a whole lot of space for them to absorb, was I think the word he said, rookie starters.

Starting point is 00:11:26 And I'm looking at the depth chart right now. And I see Cordell Vos and Cody Ford still penciled into starting jobs. Lucas Patrick potentially in contention there at Guard. Jackson Kirkland potentially in contention there at Guard. I mean, all right, let's get to the defensive side of the ball. You saw have Jermaine Pratt penciled in as a starter. We're expecting the need for a third linebacker to play, I would say at least 20% of the Bengals snaps in 2025,

Starting point is 00:11:59 and that's not a huge amount, but linebacker three currently Oren Berks or Mumajong Mehta or Shaka Hayward, and there's no linebacker too. If you assume that Jermaine Pratt is a guy that they're seeking, to replace. There are questions at safety, although I could buy Duke Tobin at least selling me on the idea that we have our starting safeties. You could get to a point where you can sell me on that if it's Geno Stone and Jordan

Starting point is 00:12:24 battle, but I have a much harder time getting there at guard and at linebacker. And even to some degree, like who's starting opposite Trey Hendrickson right now? I would guess that that could be a veteran even if they drafted a guy in the first round at Edge. but that rookie edge rusher, if they do take him in the first time, we're getting to the lineup very quickly. So I'm just not there. There's some clear starting needs, especially at Guard. And I just don't buy you, Duke.

Starting point is 00:12:56 I'm not buying it. It's fair. I think how many edges are starting over Miles or Joseph? There aren't many. Well, there aren't. Not right away. Not in week one, but I think like by week six, if they drafted a guy that they should have drafted in the first round.

Starting point is 00:13:18 Mike Green? I don't know. I don't know if Mike Green starts at all. But that's it. If they take him at 17, you would hope, right? Anyways. The same way I felt about Amarius last year when we had this conversation about Amarius fits, not necessarily having to immediately start, but I maintain after they drafted him that he should be starting that season.

Starting point is 00:13:38 I don't think it's close to that. I think it's because Miles, they're hoping Miles Murphy is a dude, like a real dude. Okay. Great. Hope all you want. You know?

Starting point is 00:13:51 Sure, but they took him in the first round. Like, and they fired their defensive coordinator partially because he couldn't get Miles on the field enough or didn't get Miles on the field enough. Like, I think that that's part of how they view that. But to your point,

Starting point is 00:14:03 they need starters. And there's going to be, like, I kind of think that they're starting defensive, line is already there. It doesn't mean that they don't need more pass rush because they do at both spots. So I'm not debating that. And if you draft one, they're going to play a lot. They'll play enough snaps to make an impact. The germane Pratt thing is so interesting because he was clearly out on germane. Like when you when asked about it, like yeah, we've tried to trade him.

Starting point is 00:14:29 We've explored that. This linebacker class isn't that good. Like, you could get really stuck if that's what you're banking on. And so I don't know. I don't know what the thought there is. Maybe that's why Germain is still on the roster. They don't want to get stuck. I totally agree with you 100% on. I don't think they have a starting guard.

Starting point is 00:14:52 They've had like selling the idea that Lucas Patrick is a starter because he started games is like saying Orrin Berks is a starter because he started games. They've usually started games because there were backups thrust into that role. Now, Lucas Patrick is far more established. I get that. But we kind of know what he is. And he would be a really high-end backup with versatility. But if he's a starter, he's a below-average starter, is how I would phrase that. And so, yeah, guard, certainly. You need pass rush. You have snaps everywhere, honestly, that you could address multiple spots. There's a reason we haven't talked about wide receiver. We think wide receiver is pretty much short of. It doesn't mean they

Starting point is 00:15:34 wouldn't take one because you never know, but probably not. That's not a need necessarily. Outside of that and like quarterback, there are needs. Now, some of the needs are bigger than others, but you could go up and down from safety to linebacker to defensive line, to guard, to running back, to tight end and be like, eh, can use another guy. And so I think that's where, that's where hopefully they are deep down, even though, yeah, Drew's, Sample is starting, is their starting tight end. Like I get it, but come on. And we just spent so much time last night discussing, ringing hands over how they could

Starting point is 00:16:19 potentially convince themselves of taking a tight end early is the right thing for them to do to make the biggest impact on the team. And Drew Sanfell is, like you said, currently Pencilton as a starter, which is a a wild thing to put next to each other a couple of facts there. And for those wondering, yes, Mike Gaseki is re-signed, but he's basically a wide receiver. You should think of him as a receiver with the way they use him because Drew Sample is the one that's blocking and doing all of the tight end stuff. So tight end aside, we can agree that there's obviously a starting need at guard. No questions about that.

Starting point is 00:17:00 Like even if you believe Cody Ford is. a starting guard. Lucas Patrick is a great versatile backup to have. Like you said, Oren Berks is a great first linebacker off the bench. He'll be a special team's key piece for Darren Simmons. Dutobin talking about those guys as having starting experience versus talking about T.J. Slayton as a starting level nose tackle

Starting point is 00:17:26 is different verbiage for, I think, a reason. Or maybe it's subliminal. And then he just didn't realize what he was doing in that moment. but he did not call those guys starting level players the way that he talked about T.J. Slayton as a starting level, no, sac. We talked about them as guys with starting experience, which I think is a tacit understanding and admission of the fact that they don't necessarily have guys there that they like to start. There does seem to be a level of confidence in Cody Ford right now that gives me some pause from the outside.

Starting point is 00:18:02 And that also goes into the Zach Taylor Presser, where he's talking about Cody Ford getting to work at one position and the fact that last year he's working at multiple positions and stepping in with minimal reps at all these different positions across the offensive line. I have a hard time not seeing Cody Ford as anything but a finished product at this point in his NFL career. Again, you can hope all you want. And I say that about a few players on this team. and we said before that hope is not a plan I think we have beaten the Dead Horse many times that we would like to see them be more serious about both starting guard spots

Starting point is 00:18:41 but at the bare minimum there's a very clear need to add one starting level guard to this team. Yeah, you just have a lot of meh. Like, Port-Al-Bolson is a fine backup. Like, I'm fine with him as a backup, but he's, you know, one of those things, Or it's like, all right, is that getting in the way? What's getting in the way here?

Starting point is 00:19:02 And maybe nothing. Maybe they draft two guards on Friday. Maybe it's back-to-back guards 49 and 81. Maybe they take one in the first round in the third round. Maybe they go two and four. And we feel completely different about their offensive line by Sunday. But as of today, ugh. Like it just feels ridiculous.

Starting point is 00:19:22 Like they you could argue that like much like they let go of Alex Capo, which was the right move from a playing standpoint. But it's like, all right, well, did you get better there? Or did you just subtract the guy and save that money? And there's a big difference between the two. And that's what's rough. It's like, all right, well, fix it. And we'll see if they can fix it.

Starting point is 00:19:50 And there are guards through day two, I think, can be starters or offensive tackles that will become guards that can be starters. And we'll see if they can get one. And then you're still relying on a rookie, which isn't the best place to be, but at least there can be a ceiling, some upsides, some growth over the course of the season, some guys that aren't essentially finished products. And it would be fascinating to see what their approach is there, as, again, they just didn't do enough before the draft to feel comfortable,

Starting point is 00:20:19 feeling more open to various other possibilities. We'll continue that conversation a little bit and then get to you some players that maybe we haven't talked about enough in this draft cycle to finish this episode. coming up next. Did you know your Fire TV is also an Xbox? Turn any TV into your gaming and entertainment hub with Fire TV stick 4K devices. No console is required. All you do is grab your paired controller, subscribe or sign into Xbox GamePass Ultimate with EA Play included, and you're ready to play. Dive into hundreds of premium titles from EA Sports College Football 25 to Call of Duty Black Op 6. As easily as you stream all of your favorite shows,

Starting point is 00:20:58 It's gaming made simple, and it's all on your fire TV. With 4K streaming, watch more than 1.5 million movies and TV episodes from your favorite subscribe services like Netflix, Prime Video, Disney Plus, Max, and more. I have a fire TV stick 4K. You are not going to regret it. Head to Amazon.com slash fire TV locked on to get started. Xbox GamePass Ultimate subscription and compatible controller are required, available, on select devices, including Fire TV Stick 4K, Fire TV Stick 4K Max, and Fire TVQ. There are some players that we haven't talked about enough throughout this process,

Starting point is 00:21:42 and some of those players could be asked to do some of these things that we're talking about in terms of some of these starting needs or significant contributor needs, as would be the case for several defensive line positions where maybe it is, you know, B.J. Hill, T.J. Slayton are your starters on the defensive intent. interior for week one. Maybe it is Troy Hendrickson and Miles Murphy are your starters for week one. Or maybe it's Joseph Osai, who knows. But maybe those veterans are your quote-unquote starters.

Starting point is 00:22:13 The official game book will list them as starters when reflected upon later. But when we talk about starters, on defense in particular, I think, this is, to me, players that play like 45 or 50 percent are more of your snaps in rotational positions. And so that definitely applies to me on the defensive line. Linebacker, like I said, I think it is fascinating. Guard, starter, very clear cut, the guy who's intending to play the whole game. Those guys play 100% of your steps, no questions there. So are there players, James, to you, especially for these roles?

Starting point is 00:22:50 We hinted at Samar Stewart a little bit yesterday that we haven't talked about enough in this process. I think another one that there's a lot of steam on social media for, and we, talked about him when he visited with the Bengals, Josh Connerly, Oregon tackle, potentially guard in the NFL. Another one of those guys. There was apparently a private workout for the Bengals with Wyatt Millen, a name that we haven't talked about a ton. That's one to keep an eye on as well. Where do you start when you want to think about guys that we haven't talked about enough? Shamar, Stuart, because of how likely it is that they take him if he's there at 17 versus how scared we are of the production and lack of refinement of his game and just getting a guy

Starting point is 00:23:35 that isn't ready to go from a pass rush standpoint and it is just kind of there. I think Shamar Stewart is going to be head and shoulders above Mike Green and James Pierce, Jr. on the Bengals board. And the only reason I'm saying it that way is because I think there are a lot of people that love those other guys, Green and Pierce. And I just, I think the Bengals are going to look at Shamar Stewart and I know they like him. And they're going to say he's going to be able to hold up against the run better than these other guys. We know he's got the athleticism. We know he's got the build and we can teach him some of this other stuff to make him a high-end pass rusher. Like I totally think that if he's there at 17, he may be their

Starting point is 00:24:15 top target. And so mentioning him, we'll mention him again tomorrow when we predict what they do. It doesn't mean we're going to make him the 17th pick, but he's going to come up. And I just want to make it as clear as possible for our everydayers for everyone watching and listening. Shamar Stewart is very much in play at 17. And we haven't covered him a ton. I think almost trying to speak it into existence that they go elsewhere. But because there's so much risk there, maybe he ends up being an awesome player. But there's a ton of risk at pick 17 for a guy like that that had a whopping four and a half

Starting point is 00:24:49 sacks over the past three years. And I'll repeat what I've said numerous times before that, there are plenty of folks that think Shamar Stewart should be one of the top edge players drafted in this class that do look at those traits and the NFL as Duke Tobin said often banks on traits and ideally as he said you have production and you have traits and you have technical refinement but often at least one of those things is missing I mean Dame Bruegler for example has Samar Stewart at number nine on his board.

Starting point is 00:25:25 And that's the lowest he's been. I think he had him higher earlier in the process. Oh, sure, for Dane. I was going to say, then you look at Mike Redder, who has him at like 39 and doesn't believe the way that some of the other scouts out there believe. But the athleticism, I think, certainly exist. Sequencing pass rush moves, finishing. Those are issues.

Starting point is 00:25:49 I mean, talk about Derek Harmon missing tackles. According to Dane Brugley, you got a 27%. that miss tackle rate. First of Marr Stewart listed in the beast, which that's unbelievable. For a defensive lineman, that's a pretty crazy number. One fourth? Like that's, yeah. Oh my God.

Starting point is 00:26:08 I mean, that's rough. That's, it's rough. But then you see like, since we're just naming, like I saw a graphic from the 33rd team, literally comparing all the measurables and pre-draft testing to Miles Garrett. And it's like, yeah, outside of the key number there. like the Sacks number. But I do wonder, like he did rack up pressures and the Bengals want disruption.

Starting point is 00:26:31 And so will they view it that way? I don't know. I'm just, I think he's, it's good that we're having this conversation because we may be having a similar conversation a few days from now after they make the 17th pick. I think everybody knows a story there. There are many, many Bengals fans that dread that pick.

Starting point is 00:26:49 And it's just a risky pick. I don't think I really, dread many picks in terms of like truly fearing like oh man that's a franchise ruining decision there's it's when they go like totally off the reservation that that it gets me and they have a history of doing this too i would throw michael williams into the same same kind of conversation by the way as another very toulsy edge rusher probably going to be seen as very stout against the run in in a conversation for the first round because they have a history of in the first round, occasionally going for those tools you guys.

Starting point is 00:27:34 Miles Murphy, obviously a very recent example of this. Dax Hill, to some degree, an example of this as well. John Ross certainly an example of this from an athletic tools perspective. He was also a very productive college. He was productive. But the idea of going for traits, Cedricabwehi. another one of these where the traits were supposedly there for him to develop into this high-end athletic tackle. Billy Price. I'm just kidding.

Starting point is 00:28:03 Yeah, well, he didn't. I'm kidding. The point is, in the first round, you'll see them sometimes make those traits bets. But then it's the rounds beyond that where they go off the reservation sometimes. And that's where it's a little bit scary. Even in 24, Jermain Burton is not a pick that we anticipated at all for character reasons. McKinley Jackson was a guy that probably went around or two earlier than most projected. In 2023, it was relatively consensus most of the way through.

Starting point is 00:28:38 Charlie Jones, I think, a little bit earlier than his consensus. But 22 with Zach Carter and Cordell-Vosson, 21 with Jackson, Carmen. They have this tendency to, in the late day two, early day three window sometimes go off the reservation and those are the ones that concern me. You can't have another Jackson Carmen pick this year. Character aside,

Starting point is 00:29:04 a player that doesn't work out in the second round this year, especially if you're talking about a guard would be the franchise derailing kind of thing that I currently am worried about. Is them totally going down the board for an

Starting point is 00:29:22 offensive guard prospect that we don't expect? Yeah, just, man, that you don't expect. That would be brutal. Like, because we- Cordell was most years with something we don't expect, right? Well, Cordell was it. I didn't know Cordell. Like, I had to, like, look in the beast and, like, do...

Starting point is 00:29:39 And fourth round, by the way, he's been productive for a fourth-rounder. Like, no doubt. But it's... One, they shouldn't have put him in position to start right away. Like, that's the issue, which goes back to the Jackson-Carman pick. But you're right, even the Drew sample pick was ridiculous. And I think they know that now. But they've had those where it's like a really premium valuable pick.

Starting point is 00:30:05 That's why people got on me, but that's why they didn't rule out running back. And on day two, like I just, I'm not going to do that. I still won't. Even with the Zach Moss news, which we didn't mention, the Zach Moss's back. We don't have a contract. Yeah. Zach Moss is back. I don't think it takes them out of the running back market completely.

Starting point is 00:30:24 but I think it lessens the need. That doesn't mean that they won't address it with a talent if they is really high on their board. I feel like late day three still in play, but Duke over is in play. Talking about how deep the running back class is, maybe Duke Tobin just feels like they can get a couple of undrafted free agents that will have very clearly draftable grades.

Starting point is 00:30:47 Maybe. And if with only, like if they don't trade down, maybe that is their plan with some of the, needs and holes. Maybe that's why they've been all over JJ Roberts from Marshall, who's Mike Green's teammate at safety, is to try to get him there as an undrafted guy, even though it does feel like he's going to get picked. increasingly popular, it seems. Yeah. So I think, I agree with you. Like, I,

Starting point is 00:31:12 Shamar Stewart would be, it's a huge role of the dice. It's going up to, going to the casino and saying, hey, I'm going to put it, what? All of it on black right now. And you just, you hope that it works. Or all of it on, you're Michael Scott and you're going all in on the first hand of Texas Holden. And just, you're not bluffing anyone, but you're really banking. And that's, maybe they think he's less risky than a Mike Green or then a James Pierce Jr. Who knows?

Starting point is 00:31:46 But I certainly think he's in the mix. And I do think that off the reservation type picks, I had someone text me yesterday like, hey, what, what round two or round three guy are they going to take that no one's expecting. And so that's, that's the fun of trying to predict what they're going to do. I'm just going to shout out John Shearons, Emery Jones second round association for the Bengals, who our lads has is a second round offensive tackle out of LSU, but by consensus as a guy that shouldn't be picked until day three. And it's that kind of thing that's now living in my head, two days before the NFL draft but tomorrow james we will issue our official predictions here on lockdown bengals and we'll have

Starting point is 00:32:28 you covered every day of the draft this week until then thanks for listening to this episode of the lockdown bengals podcast ho today and have a good one

Locked On Bengals - Daily Podcast On The Cincinnati Bengals - MAJOR progress on Bengals stadium deal, AND dissecting Duke's "We Have Starters" claim ahead of 2025 Draft

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