Locked On Bengals - Daily Podcast On The Cincinnati Bengals - Time to Lift the Curtain on the 2025 Defense! | Can Golden's Plan Deliver Wins?

Starting point is 00:00:01 Bengals fans may be wondering, what should we expect from Al Golden's defense in 2025? Let's break down the biggest scheme changes and what we expect to see from Golden's unit in his premiere this week. You are Locked on Bengals, your daily Cincinnati Bengals podcast. Part of the Locked on Podcast Network, your team every day. What up, Bengals fans, and welcome to another episode of the Lockdown Bengals podcast. as part of the Lockdown Podcast Network, your team every day. I'm Jake Liskow, your host of the Lockdown Bengals Podcast, where we got you covered for daily Bengals news analysis

Starting point is 00:00:43 the best you'll find in a one-stop shop across the internet, joined today by Mike Santagana at Bengals underscore Sands. On the social media, as you can find his writing about the Cincinnati Bengals of Bengals Talk, S-I. And, well, Mike is with us because he's a film grinder. He's the guy that watches coaches clinics for fun in his free time. and as a person who also enjoys the game of football, and I like watching film,

Starting point is 00:01:08 sometimes I put those clinics on, and I got to be honest, Mike, I fall asleep a little bit. But today, we're going to dive into what we're expecting from Al Golden's defense, especially differences between what we saw from Luana Rumo's unit and where we are hoping perhaps they can improve, especially based on what we saw in the preseason.

Starting point is 00:01:31 and we're going to go from overall schematic philosophical ideas. We're going to talk about trench differences specifically, back seven differences specifically. We're going to finish up by thinking about what do we actually think Al Golden needs to accomplish for this team to accomplish its goals in terms of pushing for a championship title. Today's episode is brought to you by Mazda. Just like there's more to every player, more dedication, more attention to detail, there's more to a Mazda vehicle.

Starting point is 00:02:02 Stay tuned later in the episode for highlights in this week's moving the game forward. Mike, let's start big picture. We spent a couple episodes with you earlier in the off season really diving into, based on Notre Dame, what we thought we would see from Al Golden as he is coming to the NFL. And obviously, difference there, defensive head coach integrating those philosophies. now with Al Golden in Cincinnati. Having seen what we've seen from him in the preseason, schematically, has your idea of what you expect to see from Golden

Starting point is 00:02:39 in terms of the approach to running the defense changed at all? Are you still expecting a lot of what we saw from him at Notre Dame? So when we did that episode, I remember at the end, I did say, I don't expect nearly as much man coverage. And that is really the main difference that I saw in the preseason was, yeah, they're going to drop back. and play more zone than they are. They're not going to trust that the NFL's hard.

Starting point is 00:03:03 The NFL's hard to play man coverage like that. Only a couple of teams do it. And when they do it, they play like 40% man coverage. They're not playing 75% man coverage. It's more like situational, short yardage. We trust our guys, you'll handle that. But first and 10, I'm still going to be in some type of eyes on the quarterback zone because that's better for the run game and limits explosive plays.

Starting point is 00:03:25 So that's the main difference. A little less aggressive, but I also thought. thought that's preseason. Like he could be more aggressive with some of his stuff. And he still was more, he ran more stunts, more blitzes than you might expect, at least that Lou ran. And, but a lot of it was similar. It was like four down, get off the ball more than it was for Anuruma.

Starting point is 00:03:48 Anirumo was more of like a react and then attack. And this is more attack the ball and then react to what you're getting. and we saw that get just annihilated by different pooling schemes because that's your natural answer. That's rock versus scissors. You know they're going to play scissors, so let's pool the guard and play rock. And the example of that, I think, is a play,

Starting point is 00:04:14 well, a couple plays maybe against Washington. I think they got hit with crunch, and you have two defensive tackles that are like three yards in the backfield looking for like, okay, why are we here? Nobody's blocking us. And then you're getting trapped. Do you think that that approach is going to continue through the regular season? So let's get specific here about trenches and the way that we expect this team to defend the run.

Starting point is 00:04:39 And maybe not as much DJ Reader, you're going to sit here and anchor at the point of attack and you're going to be able to react and then attack the way you described it. We talked a lot about that before. So maybe reintroduce those ideas, attack, React versus React attack. And is this consistent with what you thought we would get from the approach in the run game from the defensive front? Yep. It's intuitive. So React attack would be I'm going to see process what the offensive line is doing.

Starting point is 00:05:16 And then based off what they're doing, I'm going to react to it and then attack. So if I'm getting a certain type of block, if I'm getting a wide zone block, I'm going to see that I'm getting that. I'm not going to get upfield, even though that does kind of kill zone. I'm going to see that, and then I'm going to put two hands into them and attack. The feet will move last in that system, thinking of how Reader would hands into a guy and then start stepping and getting into his spot versus attack react, where I'm going to move my foot first. That is the first thing.

Starting point is 00:05:48 I'm getting off the ball. No matter what, I'm going to get some penetration, because all penetration can be good penetration. Not always is, but can be good penetration. And that's more of what I think we saw. You get a little bit of both. It's not like they never play React attack, but you get more attack react because you're in your four down, which is what they were for a majority of this, where they have four defensive linemen. And those guys just fire off the ball. And Rimo had the nickel. And when he would play four down in there, he would ask them to play it slower, but it's just playing it slow versus playing fast. Do you want to be the aggressor? Or,

Starting point is 00:06:25 do you want to see what they're doing and react to it? What are the pros and cons then of that approach? Because I feel like when I think about the teams that like to fire up field, I just think back to like Gus Radley defenses often and the way that when the Bengals had success running the ball, especially in the last couple of years, it's been against those kinds of defenses, especially like those are the ones that for whatever reason, the way the Bengals approach to running game seem to be a good matchup for the angles in the running game. Do you think that there's, I mean, obviously there's a place for all

Starting point is 00:07:00 these things in the NFL at different times because so much of it is that paper rock sedgers game. But do you think that that is something that will lead to or could lead to if executed well a consistent level of run defense? Or is it kind of more lending yourself to boom or bust plays? Yeah, I think so. So the Texans will play that way. The 49er system would be what you'd look at and be like Robert Sala, so the Jets when he was there, and Domeko Ryans, and they wanted to fire off the ball. They're always four down. They've got those wide. I think Nick Bosa's probably in a nine technique, almost every down.

Starting point is 00:07:36 The problem with that is they have, if you think about those teams, at least the Jets of 49ers, they had great linebacker play to go with it. You can think of Fred Warner and the other side, you had the Mosley-Quincey Williams combo, which is a very good combo. So Texans not so much, what the Texans get is maybe what you're hoping for the Bengals is that these big ends are just really good run defenders like Will Anderson. And they can handle taking on double. You might have to take on double team as an end in this four down system because you don't have all the gaps covered up front. So they can combo you get to the backer. Is that why you're interested in Shamar Stewart more than you are in one of these smaller ends? Because you think, well, he's got the mass, he's got the side.

Starting point is 00:08:18 he could take on a double team if we really need him to. See, they've had to have Murphy do it at times as well. Hendrickson, you're hoping he's on the weak side. You're hoping he's not in a double team range because, one, you don't want your star player taking body blows like that, but two, probably not his strong suit to hold up against those, but they do like these big ends, and that feels like a pretty decent fit in there to be like,

Starting point is 00:08:44 okay, this guy can be a really good run defender in size and strength. I wonder if, and we're going to go here next, because I have a question about this. I wonder if that's where the five-man surfaces we've seen a lot of from Al Golden in the preseason will play a part in this as well. When I say a five-man surface, it looks like a three, four a little bit, or it can. They're putting extra linebackers on the field, but one of those linebackers is essentially on the line of scrimmage playing more in an edge defender, edge setter role. And it's been interesting to see the Bengals used.

Starting point is 00:09:17 a lot of this, I think, throughout this preseason. And I wonder if that's part of it as well, because Trey Hendrickson plays one side. And maybe that changes this year, but you're talking about hoping Trey's on the weak side. One, they're going to take him off the field in obvious running situations, I think, with some regularity. They want him out there to pass rush. They want him out there in some neutral downs,

Starting point is 00:09:37 but in obvious running situations, I don't think he's on the field. But if he's still playing on the right side consistently, he's not going to be one of those guys that switches sides to play on the weak side. Not really the way he's kind of played in his NFL career. But Mike, let's get to those five-man surfaces. We'll start working our way back. Talk about the linebackers, what needs to be different for them based on what we saw in the preseason, what we're expecting for linebackers in the Al Golden defense coming up next. This is Mazda's moving the game forward, brought to you by those who believe it's not just about playing the game. It's about

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Starting point is 00:11:58 order. That's supplyhouse.com, real people, real service. All right, Mike, let's dive into the second level a little bit here. And I want to make sure we get to the pass rush as well. maybe we'll go run game then passing game run game i think a big concern right now really the entire defense has concerns people are really concerned about the secondary too but for me it's really the run game is is my focus and one thing that we saw a lot from al golden that to me is a difference we saw some of jermaine pratt playing in that edge roll last year but it was less than a five-man surface they didn't use as many three linebacker sets and i think we saw more of that from al golden as well. So when you're thinking about the linebackers role in all this in run defense, what are you,

Starting point is 00:12:45 what are you thinking about the way they were used and the way they played, how well they played, or how poorly they may have played depending on the game, depending on the moment, depending on the player in the preseason. Yeah, I thought the five minutes service was interesting because the one I remember is Burke's lined up on the line of scrimmage and then had Knight and Wilson on off the line of scrimmage. You can really use either. I don't know if I'd use Wilson, but Knight, Berks, Carter, any of those guys, I think, could fit into that role and play on the line of scrimmage, just with the athleticism. All of them, especially Knight and Carter, the athleticism and the pass rushing ability. And for Berks, just the experience and kind of knows what

Starting point is 00:13:27 he's doing. I think with the linebackers, they would be really well suited to have, it's tough. So like what Knight did, it just looked like he was learning. It looked like he was learning a lot and the game, the NFL game is faster. So I feel like that ended up dragging down Wilson's play too because a lot of times linebackers are really, they have a symbiotic relationship where Knight, let's use the GY counterplay that went for an explosive play touchdown for Jacori, crossing Maryland vaulted about fantasy football boards and everything. So on the play, he's supposed to come down and it looks like going to spill an overlap

Starting point is 00:14:15 based off of how he comes and takes the leverage, which means he's going to take the inside. And when you do that, you have to gain depth because the whole thing here is, okay, if you gain depth and go inside, then Wilson has time to get around that and go outside and be a free runner to the ball carrier. But instead of gaining depth, he stood where he was, then tried to still take the block on the inside. And now you're taking on the block five yards deep. So let's say you just destroyed that block. You're still giving up five yards, but that would be better than what happened. Doesn't take on the block too well. Ends up getting, becoming a log jam for Wilson who can't get around it and it's off to the races. The safety's didn't make the play either.

Starting point is 00:14:59 So what I think Wilson would really benefit from would just be somebody who's doing. their job next to him. I know that Knight and Carter, they've got way more potential. But for me, like when I'm watching, I'm like, man, I think he might work with Burks, because Berks isn't going to do anything that's like, oh, what an extraordinary play. But you're also not going to notice him. I'll be like, well, why'd that run break? Why'd that run for a huge run instead of just five yards? And so I think he does his job. So for me, I think the linebackers are better suited for that. I think the main issue I'd think of, but this is more a passing downs thing.

Starting point is 00:15:37 Like, I think that works better in the run game. And on passing downs, they're both better suited to kind of be the hook zone dropper. I think Berks is all right, just manning up on running backs. I think your issue could come if they play heavy and now he has to man up on a tight end. But that's where I think the real issues would come. But, man, maybe you're thinking about matching personnel and using your athletic guys to take on tight ends when that opportunity presents itself or maybe just use the safety if you're going to be playing in a one high system.

Starting point is 00:16:08 But yeah, what I saw from the linebackers was I feel like the young guys were a little, I felt like Knight was out of place a little bit more than he should be, and it really affected Wilson's play. It didn't help that they're trying to bring like some blitzes on the back end, and it felt like the offenses were ready for those and not only ready but ready to punish those. So it was all a mess at that point. So how much of this can be experienced?

Starting point is 00:16:32 explained by what the Bengals kept saying, like from players to coaches, we've talked about it a lot on this podcast that we were showing like 10% of our playbook. How much of that fits into what we saw? Because obviously, like where you have guys not taken on Bloxmo, where you have guys that are out of position, that means you're not executing some of those 10% that you had in in the first place. Maybe you got hit with something exotic. I mean, running out crunch in a preseason game, a little bit mean, you know, but it's a great play. And it really did his job quite well. So I guess my question is, how much of this can we chalk up to preseason football in the run game versus like where you're not game planning? You're not running your whole complement of playbook. You're trying to keep some of that in the back pocket until week one, week two of the season before teens get the book on you. What are your thoughts around that argument? I think you make that argument some. I think when you look at it, you go, okay, they're not running any exotic.

Starting point is 00:17:30 Like when I talk about them blitzing, a lot of their blitzes were just, I'm going to send the linebacker to the A gap and slant the nose to the opposite A gap and very plug, just like a plug type of blitz, just something that's just, we're just sending them in there trying to play a little fast. We're probably not going to confuse the offensive line with this or anything. We're not getting an exotic formation to set this up. On the other end, this is the 10% of the playbook. I don't understand why they weren't executing the run fits

Starting point is 00:18:00 for only 10% of the playbook, because I can't assume that it gets easier with the more exotic looks to do those. And second part is, there's no real excuse for just going out there and get your butt kicked. To me, that's just like take pride, even if this is a preseason game.

Starting point is 00:18:17 Like, don't go out there and let John Bates put together a four-minute highlight reel of blocking plays and 10 snaps. I don't think we need that. So take on those blocks with some pride. Take them on. and actually shed the block. Put your hands into them.

Starting point is 00:18:32 Be physical. I think that's the part of the preseason that may be a little bit more concerned was just like, yeah, I don't care that like, oh, they got you with this scheme. It wasn't the X's and O's part. But those runs should be going for eight yards, not 40.

Starting point is 00:18:45 They should like somebody go make that tackle. Somebody be physical. Somebody go make the play. Yeah, that part is definitely concerning. We've talked about that quite a bit. The guys that are out of position or appear to be out of position, I guess I should caveat.

Starting point is 00:18:59 We're not in the first. room we don't know exactly who isn't doing their job on some of these plays we don't know exactly whether it's you know a total play call issue maybe some of this is just on whatever al golden throughout there on a particular play and it actually was executed the way it was drawn up and it just was the wrong decision at that time i don't think that's the case i mean i think we we know what we're looking at these are very educated guesses mics out there watching the coaches clinics on on all these different run fits and all this stuff that's going on that's why we're talking to him but One thing that we didn't really see a whole lot of from the Bengals,

Starting point is 00:19:32 at least the starters, was getting tested in the passing game like Cam Taylor Britt. I don't think he got targeted because he didn't play in the first preseason game, got run all over on defense in the second preseason game. So let's talk a little bit about the secondary. Let's talk a little bit about what we should expect from a coverage perspective from Al Golden's defense coming up next. This episode is presented by Yahoo Fantasy. In the NFL season, right around the corner,

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Starting point is 00:22:04 And if you win, you'll get $300 in bonus bets to use across the site. Mike, let's talk about this secondary, the coverage approach. What did you see from the Bengals in these preseason games? We were fearful, maybe not quite the word, but maybe a little bit leery of the preponderance of man coverage in Al Golden's unit at Notre Dame. What did we see from them in the preseason as far as trends went from me? your perspective. So I saw them play zone, but I did see more man than I,

Starting point is 00:22:40 but then you would expect from what Anaruma would play. And I think mostly of the Philadelphia game where they faced a lot of quick game from Tanner McKee. And it was just like a lot of slant stick, just whatever. I remember a lot of slant routes against man coverage. This is really what I remember where it felt like DJ Turner and struggling a little bit, keep up and then you'd have what Josh Newton man coverage on Johnny Wilson giving up 10 inches of height or something that's that's tough too so I did see some man I saw some zone that's the one

Starting point is 00:23:16 I'm not 100% confident I'm really what they'll do because to me that is where they could get more exotic where what are they going to do with their man coverage are they just lined up and just play like it just play man to man right here because we're going to do something more interesting later with like match coverages or maybe we'll drop the safety and have him rob an overrout or something so that to me is where i i do buy more of the excuse about how they're hiding some of their stuff and only 10% of the playbook was being shown yeah and i think that is something that makes a lot of sense too one thing that seemed to stand out to me is in training camp anyway any where some of the plays that we saw were there were motions and

Starting point is 00:24:03 and the Bengals were showing one thing based on how they reacted to motion, and you'd end up with guys in different positions based on motion, where maybe you're bumping a safety down, maybe you have a corner rotating back to safety, those roles changing a little bit based on how golden is disguising. I'm very interested to see how those disguises play out in the regular season. I think I agree with you. One of the big places where we didn't get a feel for what we should expect

Starting point is 00:24:31 from the golden defense is in coverage. because if you listen to Joe Burrow talk throughout the preseason, he's talking about how well the corners are playing and understanding their leverages in terms of the coverages they're being asked to play. Their disguise has been referenced by multiple players on this Bengals offense. And this is maybe the most compelling bit of evidence.

Starting point is 00:24:52 They got stops. When the Bengals were playing 11 on 11 in preseason practices, they were stopping Joe Burrow in the offense. Not always. But they had their fair share. And based on my expectations for this Bengals offense this year, I feel like that has to mean something. Maybe it's just that they're very familiar with how Joe Burrow wants to go at them, but it's still Joe Burrow thrown into Jamar Chase and T. Higgins and all those weapons.

Starting point is 00:25:21 It's not just those guys, obviously. But that has to mean something to me. The other thing that I wanted to get to, Mike, before we talk about really the baseline, What we think the Bengals need Al Golden's defense to do is we're seeing a lot more twisting and stunting from this defensive front. What do you think the impact is there in terms of the pass rush when you make that kind of change and put a lot more of that sort of approach in to your pass rush? So you're going to stress the communication of the offensive line more than you're going to stress stress their physical abilities. So when I think about just a standard pass rush, you're stressing the tackles ability to set out and to get to him. and stop the speed, but also be able to anchor down and stop power.

Starting point is 00:26:05 Well, now that when you start stunting and twisting, let's say like an end tackle twist, then you're going to stress the communication between the tackle and the guard, and can he set out to that speed of a Miles Murphy, of a Shamar Stewart of Trey Hendrickson, and then also redirect inside, communicate with his guard, and be able to pass that over and have the tackle loop back around and be able to go back out and pick that guy up. it wasn't super effective in the preseason, but it does look very effective in the practice clips you see.

Starting point is 00:26:35 So that's another part of like, maybe they've got something working on the stunt front. They're also not facing a ton of passing game in the preseason. And I feel like they're facing more passing game. And that's why I think they might be getting more stops. They're getting more passes. So, yeah, I see the stunts as being a way to stress communication. And if you're struggling to, let's say, like last year,

Starting point is 00:26:58 they struggled a little bit to rush the pass. or like Miles Murphy may have got some pressures, but he had zero sacks. And when Henderson came off the field, they were one of the worst past rushing teams in the league. Well, let's not ask them to just win that way. Let's ask them to work together and come up with a team type of win. Yeah, find another tool in the toolkit.

Starting point is 00:27:17 There are obviously some drawbacks to it. It's a little bit longer to develop at time. So against quick game or maybe a quick pressure, you can get into a passing lane, maybe knock a ball down. If you're worried about playing those mind games, Some of those are a little bit slower to develop. I'm very interested to see how that plays out, especially with

Starting point is 00:27:36 Trey Hendrickson back in the fold. I want to see some Trey Hendrickson packages beside Samar Stewart, put those guys next to each other on the field, let them just deal with one side, the right side, most likely, or the left side of the offensive line, left guard, left tackle, center, and see what kind of havoc you can create

Starting point is 00:27:53 with those guys. That part seems fun. But I think one of the takeaways for me is because, of the way the free season goes, you get such limited time on task against the running game, you get such limited live reps defending the run because of NFL rules in the preseason, because of Bengals aren't ever going full contact,

Starting point is 00:28:14 take guys to the ground in practices, it just, it kind of makes sense that that would take a little bit longer, right? Like that aspect of defense without having the ability to get the live reps, it would make sense for that to take longer. hopefully the start they have against one of the worst offenses projected in the NFL and the Cleveland Browns gives them a chance to get off on the right foot that way. But that's going to be something that we're talking about between now and Sunday is what does this front defense look like out of the gate?

Starting point is 00:28:45 How do they perform immediately when they're tested by the Cleveland Browns who are going to want to run the ball? They're not going to want to ask Joe Flacco to sit there and drop back a ton unless they absolutely have to. So I think that's going to be interesting too. Let's wrap up, Mike, by talking about success here quickly. for what we think the Bengals need to do to be in a place where they can content. And to me, they don't have to even be an average defense in terms of like yards for play or success rate or EPA or anything like that. Honestly, I think back to honestly 2005, like the opportunistic Bengals defense of that

Starting point is 00:29:20 Carson Palmer year where you're getting the takeaways, you're finding ways to get stops in the red zone. And that was a big pillar of Lulu and a Rimmo defense of Ben Don't Break. they would find a way to firm up in the red zone. There were some hints of that from the Bengals this preseason while they weren't quite as effective at it. But that's it to me. Like get the ball back to Joe Burrow once or twice a game.

Starting point is 00:29:43 Maybe not every game. That's asking a lot, right? But like find the opportunistic plays, find the key stops at key times, and be able to play with a lead and find ways to get stops when you have a two-score lead in the fourth quarter against the Baltimore Ravens, right? Like that kind of thing.

Starting point is 00:29:58 again, it's easier said than done, but that to me is what stands out. Not necessarily like asking for them to even get to average, but find a way to be opportunistic. Yeah, I'd say get off the field. And that could be an opportunistic thing. That could be they got a sack on first down and then put them behind the chains and they're just able to get off the big. The Bengals were just so bad getting off the field last year. They were terrible in the red zone. They were terrible on third down.

Starting point is 00:30:22 So if you could just shore up those areas, you've got a better defense. And what you're probably looking for is something like what the commander's defense was able to give them like round league average and points, but they were pretty good in the red zone. They were solid on third down. They had a few more turnovers. That's really what you're after. So I think he could do that, especially we talk about the disguise and stuff, get a couple extra picks on the year, get some extra sacks with the, with the communication stressing of the stunts and twists and blitzes and just find ways to put the offense, the opposing offense behind the chain so that you can end up getting off the field. Because getting off the field was the biggest part.

Starting point is 00:30:55 there was a, I think it was like 60% of Trey-Henderson Sacks, they still got a first down after. Find a way to stop that. Don't allow them to get behind the change and then still pick it up. Yeah, that's pretty unacceptable stuff. Like, sacks are mostly drive-ending in the NFL, more often than not.

Starting point is 00:31:11 And the fact that that split was the opposite for Trey Hendrickson, Sacks last year, pretty inexcusable stuff. Well, we've got a game week here, Mike. We'll probably be talking to you next week when we have some film to break down, some film to talk about. about what we see from Al Golden's defense now that we're actually going to see it in a game

Starting point is 00:31:29 that matters. We've got a crossover coming your way for the rest of the week as well. We'll have a game preview to finish off the week here on Lockdown Bengals. So until then, thanks for listening to this episode of the Lockdown Bengals podcast. Hootay and have a good one.

Locked On Bengals - Daily Podcast On The Cincinnati Bengals - Time to Lift the Curtain on the 2025 Defense! | Can Golden's Plan Deliver Wins?

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