Locked On Bengals - Daily Podcast On The Cincinnati Bengals - Turf Toe is the WORST | Everything we know about Joe Burrow's impending surgery

Starting point is 00:00:00 Turf To has this cute, innocuous name, but actually it's just the worst. And Joe Burrow needs surgery. Let's break you down. You are Locked on Bengals, your daily Cincinnati Bengals podcast. Part of the Locked On Podcast Network, your team every day. What's going on, Bengals fans? And welcome to another episode of the Lockdown Bengals podcast. Part of the Lockdown Podcast Network, your team every day.

Starting point is 00:00:32 I'm Jake Liskow. He's James Rapine. And we've been covering your Cincinnati Bengals here on Lockedonged. lockdown Bengals since 2016 through the thick and the thin. And, well, we're going to go through a little bit of thin today as Joe Burrow, according to Zach Taylor, according to many reports, is headed for surgery, which is the worst case outcome for the turf toe injury, which, like I said, doesn't sound like much, but once you start reading about what turf toe is, it is a nasty, nasty injury.

Starting point is 00:01:02 That is what Joe Burroughs dealing with. And we appreciate all you every dayers, everyone who makes lock. on Bengals, our first listen for sticking with us here as we're bringing you all the information that we have about what's going on with Joe Burrow, what we can expect afterwards and everything that is currently happening with those Cincinnati Bengals. But we can say definitively, James, that turf toe sucks. It is the worst. That's right. The turf toe is the, you're right, though, about the name. They need to change the name. Turftoe sounds like, like a minor thing and it can be minor at times but it's super painful and even when you aren't

Starting point is 00:01:43 one of the two percent that need surgery it's uh well it's not fun and it keeps you out for a while and unfortunately for joe burrow i mean i i don't know about you jake i'm not holding out hope like holding out hope is the wrong thing of course you hold out hope but i'm not realistically thinking that we're going to see Joe Burrow again in a Bengals uniform at any point this season and certainly not in this calendar year. That's how I'll do it. Like I'm not thinking about that December 14th game against the Ravens or in that rain. Like, I'm not doing that.

Starting point is 00:02:17 I don't think we, I think we've seen the last of Joe Burrow in 2025 and probably the last of him this season. The idea that this could be as little as three months feels very optimistic. that is the short end. And the caveat to give there is that this injury requiring surgery is particularly rare for quarterbacks. It's rare in general. It's especially rare for quarterbacks.

Starting point is 00:02:45 There was a Harvard study that looked at all turf toe injuries in a range that ended in 2017 in which four of the turf toe NFL injuries they looked at were quarterbacks. None of those needed surgery, which led to this idea that this is unprecedented for quarterbacks to have a turf toe that require surgery. That's not the case. Patrick Mahomes just had it after the 2020 season after the 2021 Super Bowl three days later. He had surgery to repair turf toe that he played through and worsened, thus requiring, I think, that surgery.

Starting point is 00:03:14 So definitely not something that you can play through for a long period of time. They did it with Patrick Mahomes in the playoffs. It made the toe worse. He recovered fine. Patrick Mahomes, soft tissue, seems to recover great. We've seen that from him with the high ankle sprain, saw it with him with the where he was ahead of schedule, but ahead of schedule for Patrick Mahomes meant that having that surgery a couple of days after that Super Bowl on February 3rd, he was ready to do some stuff,

Starting point is 00:03:40 was the quote for OTAs in late May. And he was good to go for training camp, but being ahead of schedule was February, March, April, end of May, nearly four months to do quote, some stuff in OTAs. So what we don't know here is the difference in the severity of the damage between. Patrick Mahomes, which required surgery, and Joe Burrow, which is going to immediately require surgery. But it wouldn't be crazy to assume that Joe Burroughs injury, at least initially, was worse because Joe had no illusions of playing through it,

Starting point is 00:04:14 where Patrick Mahomes managed to do so for two and a half weeks. That's speculative, but I think could be a reasonable deduction. Three months would be awesome. We would take that. And we could talk about what that would look like and what Jake Browning would have to do. to keep the Bengals afloat and all those things. But it does feel optimistic. I agree.

Starting point is 00:04:35 Yeah, it does. Now, a couple of things. One, we know Joe Burrow is as tough as they come. I've probably listened to as much about Joe Burrow and read as much about Joe Burrow as humanly possible, probably. And I know Jimmy Burrow has said this multiple times, his father. Joe's always been a fast healer. So that's always been a thing.

Starting point is 00:04:59 where he's going to push. I think his mindset is going to be to return this year. I'm hopeful that we'll hear from Joe at some point this week. As of now, and we're recording this on Monday at 4 Eastern, there's not a surgery date set. They're still evaluating that part of it. And that's a big part of it too. When does he actually have the surgery?

Starting point is 00:05:25 Because once you have the surgery, then you can start to recover. And until then, well, it's going to, you know, there's just time burning. But I think there's a reason why, and Zach alluded to this a little bit and mentioned it, like there's a reason why they can't just do it right now and get the show on the road. So hopefully it's soon. Hopefully he can have surgery soon.

Starting point is 00:05:43 Hopefully we hear about his mindset and approach. But it's just a bummer. Like, it's just such a bummer, Jake, because if you would have told me, and we were recorded our last show together, we did, I did the emergency show this morning, but our last show together after the game, even if you said two months, well, you're like, all right, well, there's a realistic path that the two and no Bengals could be relevant in two months without Joe Burrell. But when we're talking about three months being optimistic, and honestly, for me, and I don't want to speak for you, but I would say four months is semi, like there's a, there's a,

Starting point is 00:06:24 there would be a chance then. Let's say they're, they're 11 and six and going to the playoffs, and we're going really orange and black color tinted glasses with that. But like, could Joe play that third week of January? Well, like, there might be a realistic shot at that. But that's so far away. Like, they have to be so good as a team to get to that level, to get to that spot, that it's just, it's tough to see right now on September 15th when your franchise quarterback and the, the organization basically goes

Starting point is 00:06:58 down and could potentially be out for the season. Yeah, it is a bummer. It feels like an understatement. It's frustrating. It's infuriating. It's tragic. It's devastating. This team can win games with Jake Browning,

Starting point is 00:07:13 but I don't think that barring some renaissance from Browning, some reinvention of self, some massive development, the like 0.0001% chance that, you know, he has a Tom Brady-like breakout. Like that's what we're talking about here when we're talking about them being relevant in January. I think they can win games with Jake Browning. Sure. But that's because they have these other stars on offense. And Jake Browning has a competency to get the ball to those guys.

Starting point is 00:07:47 But like, yeah, I mean, we're talking about the engine of the team and how many times we've set it throughout this off season. Joe Burrow is the thing that drives us to. without Joe Burrow, yeah, they still have talent. There's still guys that know how to win. But when you're talking about true contenders, it's a way that I've often joked about the Steelers over the years. Like, yeah, the Steelers are going to win some games, but who cares? Like, that's not where you're quite jumping to here, I would say,

Starting point is 00:08:13 but like unless Joe Burrow comes back, that is where I land ultimately. Sure. Yeah, they're not going to suck. I think they're going to be fun. They may win this week. They may go to Minnesota and win. but when you enter the season like a lot of our viewers and listeners and that a lot of people in the building and I'm at Paycourt Stadium right now. It's called the Jungle Lounge right next to the Bengals locker room.

Starting point is 00:08:38 But when you're thinking Lombardi and you hear about the Santa Clara standard and everything that we've heard over the past couple of months in off season and when they signed Jamar and T and Joe has the best training. camp he's had and really good in the preseason when they score four touchdowns and five possessions even if they do suck right now on offense overall and they did they did and the majority what three out of the five quarters that Joe was under center I would say they they were under par will say you still had that belief that they'd figured out and be one of those teams to reckon with and now it just the margin for error is so much thinner with Jake Browning versus Joe Burrow absolutely is it's wheat too as well. I mean,

Starting point is 00:09:28 I guess if you're going to have a long-term injury, getting it out of the way earlier in the season, the later in the season is something, at least they're 2-0. All those things we were talking about yesterday, though, about maybe there's enough cushion at 2-0 for them to absorb this. That's when you're thinking, like, maybe it's a six-week injury.

Starting point is 00:09:42 You know, maybe it's a grade two that needs time, but doesn't need surgery. But then as soon as it's like, yeah, those ligaments are torn, there's a surgical intervention required. the tone certainly shifts and you know the team has to keep going they still have to play all the games obviously they still have the stars on the team but i've got some more thoughts about the the injury itself maybe some information about what turf toe is if you haven't gone out and read about it yourself i spent my morning what i do when these sorts of injuries happen james is i just go find

Starting point is 00:10:12 all the information i can about them read as much as i can so we can talk about that a little bit as well here coming up next. This episode of Lockdown Bengals is brought to you by Mazda. I love my Mazda. I've been driving to Mazda 3 for a few years because Mazda craft cars for those who do more than simply move

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Starting point is 00:12:06 Use code locked on NFL at Monarchmoney.com in your browser for half off your first year. That's 50% off your first year at monarchmoney.com with code locked on NFL. Oh, you know, Jake, one thing that I want to point out, and I hope after today, this never happens again, but back-to-back shows now you've had to use the term surgical intervention. And I just hope I never hear it again. I just wanted to point that out before you dive into more of everything you read about turf toe. But I'm hoping I never have to hear that again. Yeah, I mean, I can just say he needs surgery instead. No, it threw me off.

Starting point is 00:12:43 No, it was fun. It threw me off on Sunday. and then you said it again today and I was like, all right, I let it go Sunday. I'm not letting it go today. My man said surgical intervention. No, it still sucks. It doesn't sound any better or worse. It's because everyone knows what it is still. It's just the fancier way to say it. So let's give our audience an idea of what turf toe is because while those ligaments, I wish I could give him my toe ligaments because I don't really need them as much as Joe needs his. Yeah. And if only that would help, I'm sure half of the city would be willing to cut off their entire foot.

Starting point is 00:13:19 I think more than half. But the idea here is essentially when your toes are under extreme weight bearing, as they were, when his toes were kind of trapped under his leg, you're hyper extending those toes, or hyper flexing the toes. I guess your toes are flex pulling toward your ankle, if you can imagine it. Or like, if you've ever jumped in your life, I imagine most of you have. A lot of times you're bending at the toes, right?

Starting point is 00:13:49 And when you're doing that under load, according to one article from ESPN, you can as an athlete load up to eight times or more than eight times your body weight onto one toe, that being your big toe. And when you exceed that pressure, and when you exceed what is normal for your foot's biomechanics, that joint can bend more degrees than it is designed to bend instead of rotating the way that it normally would.

Starting point is 00:14:20 And when that happens, there's a bunch of structures around this very small joint. It's been described as a pea-sized bone where all of these structures kind of come together. And whether it's a tendon or a ligament, there's all these structures in place that when they're stretched, you can start to tear. Joe Burrow has a ligament tear there. This is his, what, third major ligament injury, not to mention minor ligament injuries between the ACL and the knee injury, his rookie year, the wrist a couple of years ago, and now this in his foot. It was essentially a non-contact injury. He's pushing the foot that is not directly contacted into the ground as he's trying to just get away from Eric Armstead, who is bringing up to the ground on the play. And there's just too much force on the toes.

Starting point is 00:15:08 One thing to point out here is it is called Turf Toe because it started to be a much more common injury with the advent of AstroTurf in the 70s. Turf does have a higher incident of these injuries because it's just a harder surface. There's not as much give. You can see if you watch a replay, Joe's toes really caught underneath him on that play. Maybe if it's a nice, soft, well-maintained grass field, the field gives there a little bit more. it's possible, but one of several reasons that there are some injuries that are associated more with turf than grass. That's why it's called turf toe is because it was associated with turf being a much more common field for these sports to be played on. And it's most common,

Starting point is 00:15:53 unfortunately, in football. Yeah. It makes sense. It sounds much cuter and fuzzier than it is. And it really sucks. Like the thing that stands out to me every time that I've looked and I did some research, of course, and there's multiple, there are go-to resources doctor-wise and physical therapy-wise that I go to when there are injuries like this that I don't know a ton about. They've all kind of said the same thing, but, man, Sunday night before that NFL network report specifically, and I think Schaefter had something, but really the NFL network report where it's like, oh, they think he'd need surgery. It felt like max six weeks.

Starting point is 00:16:35 And that's what really sucks, is. The 2%, I want to hammer that home. Like, of these injuries, it's so rare to have to need surgery. And if you don't need surgery, it wouldn't be season ending. And he would be able to come back at some point this year, maybe before the buy, maybe right after the buy, but in a realistic part of fall. And we wouldn't be talking about calendar years and maybe season ending and all of those things. So that sucks because it's such a small, rare, it's not a rare injury in general, but it's rare. to have it to this degree, to this level, to where you're going to have to have to undergo

Starting point is 00:17:11 surgery and be out for as long as he's going to have to be out. Especially for quarterbacks at the NFL level. You see this much more commonly require surgery for receivers, for running backs, especially guys that are getting tackled frequently while they're trying to drive forward, much less common for quarterbacks. Like I said, Patrick Mahomes is the only example that I was able to find, James, in terms of quarterbacks that have needed surgery on this. That was after the 2020 season.

Starting point is 00:17:37 But worth noting that even though he did play through it, generally that the pain is so acute here. I mean, imagine just trying to push off of any surface as an athlete without the use of your big toe. Like just go outside if you're sitting in your car or whatever when you get home and just try to like push off of your foot without using your big toe. Your big toe takes so much weight. You don't think about it until you don't have it. but generally speaking described as too much pain for any sort of localized pain killer. And if you were to do something like more numbing, you can't numb the entire foot. You need to feel your foot.

Starting point is 00:18:17 So like those sorts of solutions don't really exist, even if there wasn't risk of making the injury worse. But if you try to play through it, as we saw the homes, you can definitely make the injury worse. And we saw this was AJ Green as well with the Cincinnati Bengals, what, just a few years, I guess a long time ago now. but 2018 doesn't feel like that long ago. Yeah. Yeah. And receivers, it's so common. I mean, that's what I think of.

Starting point is 00:18:40 When I think of Turf, I instantly think of receivers, maybe some corners here and there because of that quarterback's band. I mean, it's just, it really is awful luck how it, how it went and worth pointing out before we get into what's next for the Bengals, just diving into the fact that Dalton Reisner took full blame. Shout out to him for doing that.

Starting point is 00:19:02 Not that I blame Dalton Reisner, but he talked about how he didn't stay up or couldn't sleep, stayed up. And I went up to him before the rest of the media. There weren't a lot of guys willing to talk on Monday. Went up to him before the rest of the media. And I was like, hey, can I ask you about yesterday? And I literally was like, just what are your thoughts when you find that out about Joe? And he literally is like, I take full blame and instantly goes into that.

Starting point is 00:19:26 And that wasn't my thought at all. And I was the only one there that got that initial quote. other people, you're going to see have other quotes. But it's just shout out the Dalton for literally going out of his way, I think, because that was not my agenda at all to take blame for the Joe Burrow injury. Give them credit for taking accountability. That is something. It maybe isn't a whole lot.

Starting point is 00:19:48 I think we can talk about that play. We can talk about a little bit of what could be next for Joe, as well as the Bengals here as we wrap up. And we're going to be talking a lot about Jake Browning here over the next. well, several months, I guess. But a little bit more to get to before we talk about what's next as well here to finish up the show coming up next. Today's show is brought to by Fandall.

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Starting point is 00:20:42 Joe Burrow will be back for the playoffs, maybe sooner. Well, regardless, you've got to get to Fandall because if you're ready to play, download the Fandall app now and use Fandle.com and you're going to get started with, well, that first $5 bet. And when that first $5 bet wins, you'll get $300 in bonus bets to use across the app. That's Fandle.com to place your first $5. bet the one thing i wanted to hit on here before we just totally move off of of joe's injury for today is as i was reading about turf toe and the recovery and what certain players have gone

Starting point is 00:21:19 through in the past and how it can become a chronic issue if it's not managed well one of the things i was thinking of is you know in terms of the timeline of him returning i hope it's not rushed in any way shape or form like i know joe's going to want to be back on the field as soon as possible right? If the Bengals are in the hunt, Jill's going to want to get back out there and try to play with the team and do everything you can to do so. But one, I really hope that this

Starting point is 00:21:47 thing is long-term managed. It is not an unprecedented recovery in the way the wrist was and you have to rebuild the risk mechanics for a thrower versus the wrist injury that he had that is more common in other positions. This is the same sort of mobility

Starting point is 00:22:03 and function that he will need to regain in that big toe is everyone else who deals with turf toe. But the way this thing can just come back and come back and come back, need to take that rehab to the full extent, right? And make sure that that thing is good to go because risking the re-injury is a specter that is scary for me. Also, wouldn't be surprised if he revisits his footwear in the future jades and goes with a more firm soul.

Starting point is 00:22:33 Like there are certain sorts of things that they can do for these to prevent that that part of the shoe from bending to the angle that would cause this kind of injury wouldn't be surprising to me to see Joe revisit that in the future after his recovery. Man, oh man. New sponsor deal with Allo. The Joe Burrow Allo souls that you need to prevent any type of toe injury. I like the idea of that there's something behind that, Joe, if that happens, I'm going to need a cut. Anyways, but before, and I hope that happens, and I hope he has special souls for December, by the way. I'm not trying to pour water on that.

Starting point is 00:23:14 I just think it's unrealistic, and I think you feel the same way. You know the other thing that I think is unrealistic, Jake? Kirk Cousins becoming a Bengal. I don't think that they're going after Kirk Cousins. By the way, I wouldn't necessarily say on paper, like, they shouldn't. but I don't think that that's something that they're discussing. And even if the contract wasn't a major issue, I still don't think that they would, and it is.

Starting point is 00:23:42 I still don't think they would be jumping at that. And then the other guys we can talk about. But yeah, Kirk, I just, I think it's unrealistic now. In two weeks, if something happened to Jake Browning, would they go that route? Who knows? But I think Jake Browning is, is their guy for sure. Yeah, I think Kirk, the salary, just makes that totally untenable. I think there's guaranteed $10 million next year, too.

Starting point is 00:24:04 It's like a 20-something million dollar salary this year. So even if they were to acquire him, they'd have to redo his deal. And it doesn't seem like something the Bengals will want to really consider. And I think part of it is that they probably don't think that it would be much better than what they're going to get from Jake Browding. And you'd have to like bring him in and get them up to speed and build this whole offense run. I think, they're looking for backup solutions for Jake Browning, whether that is practice squad additions so that they have additional depth or supposedly they're inquiring around for veterans that are available that apparently they've called about Malik Willis, according to some reports or

Starting point is 00:24:46 suggestions. I don't buy that. I don't buy that at all, by the way. Fair enough. But they're sniffing around four quarterbacks. That was an Adam Schaefter tweet. For sure. They're looking for something, but it's not going to be, you know, a starting needle mover. Like, James Winston is the other big one that I've seen throwing out. Well, see, I would say they should go after James Winston with the idea that he's your backup. Like, I think, and they want, look, the Bengals want someone that isn't going to go throw, and I guess Jake Browning just did, but he's going to be able to run their offense and not throw three picks and be so hot and cold. And usually Jake isn't that way.

Starting point is 00:25:26 in their minds at least, right? But for a, because now your backup, like, especially if you're going to stay afloat for Joe to come back, you need to ask yourself, is Brett Rippin, the practice squad quarterback? Is that the guy? Is that the guy that you want to be one play away from having to start? And if the answer is no, then maybe you can acquire James Winston, who has a manageable contract. Here's the problem. is he is a big name, former number one overall pick.

Starting point is 00:25:57 And if you put that at backup quarterback behind Jake undrafted Browning, it makes it tough because everyone, the moment Jake Browning screws up is going to say, all right, well, we want James Winston. They're going to be guys in the locker room that buy in on James Winston. And so there's a delicate balance there.

Starting point is 00:26:13 But do I think James Winston would make them better? Absolutely. But I think bringing him in as the backup would be the right call. And that's just tough to do. considering you'd be trading for him and all the things that come with it. Maybe that's part of the job of the coaching staff. Maybe that is the right thing to do. And you need to manage that.

Starting point is 00:26:31 Do it. I'm in. I think the reason you point that out is that you understand perhaps why they wouldn't make that kind of move. Sure. I think there's a pretty good argument that, like, yeah, you should make sure your backup is as good as it could be. There's been an argument in the past couple of years to try to improve on Jake Browning at that spot, but Jake Browning is so cost-controlled compared to Carson Wentz likely starting for the

Starting point is 00:26:54 Minnesota Vikings this weekend, right? They had to pay a whole lot more money for that level of backup quarterback versus Jake Browning at, you know, league minimum, essentially, just over a million dollars because he is a cost-controlled, unfafted free agent, exclusive rights-free agent that kind of the Bengals bought out his exclusive right-free agent years. So that's why it is what it is there, but they will make a move for a backup quarterback. We'll see who that turns out to be. from what I've heard, there aren't needle movers that are in the conversation right now, James, but it's going to be Jake Browning's show, which means once again, you know, we're going to sit here and go back and look at the tape and see,

Starting point is 00:27:32 okay, what's Jake Browning doing differently than Joe Burrow, however defense is playing the Bengals differently with Jake Browning than Joe Burrow, which Zach Taylor said they weren't for the Jacksonville Jaguars, when I think it was you that asked that question, asked him about it, and his presser. There's definitely differences. I would say that there were some differences. Yeah, I agree.

Starting point is 00:27:51 I think that that touchdown to T. Higgins is a great example of one of those differences. But then again, the Bengals got a zero look and Jamar Chase on a touchdown on a slant with Joe Burrow in the game in the red zone earlier. So maybe that's just who the Jaguars defensive coordinator is. Regardless, there will be changes coming to this offense. And unfortunately, we have to have that conversation again of, well, what's the same? scheme look like with Jake Browning. Why did it look better? Why was the past protection graded higher? What are those tradeoffs that happen when Jake Browning is in a quarterback who's obviously a worst quarterback than Joe Burrow, but has been productive in this offense in the past?

Starting point is 00:28:31 You know who they should call? I'll just give you a name. Go ahead. A bingo killer. Luana Rumo would be so nervous that he would be within 200 miles of him. Mike flight, Mike flight, why? Take him flight. He's a free agent. Dead serious. I thought he had like a workout this week or something. I feel like I've seen his name in the news recently. He might have. Other guy like Taylor Heineckee would be interesting, but no, I think Mike Flight White,

Starting point is 00:28:59 print the jersey right now, Flight White on the back of a jersey. I just got you excited, didn't I? Mike Flight White. I don't know if excited is the word. No. James would get you excited. James would be fun.

Starting point is 00:29:16 It's a backup. Yeah. It could be fun. I don't know about exciting. I don't know. It's pretty hard to be excited about the whole lot right now. I'd be excited if Joe Burrow got James Winston's toe ligaments. So I'd be excited about.

Starting point is 00:29:32 Wishing Joe Burrow are the best in his recovery, of course. Hopefully we find out about that surgery soon. Hopefully the surgery happens soon. I'm sure they're just taking all appropriate steps to maximize that recovery, given the best shot at ever covering as quickly as possible. And yeah, you're right. Hopefully we hear from Joe. He did talk to the media last time he had a season ender,

Starting point is 00:29:54 and we'll see if that's the case this time around. But that's going to do it for this episode of the Lockdown Bengals podcast. As there's more information, we'll continue to have you covered. But we're going to take a look at the film, and well, it's on to Minnesota. Until then, thanks for listening. Ho-Day and have a good one.

Locked On Bengals - Daily Podcast On The Cincinnati Bengals - Turf Toe is the WORST | Everything we know about Joe Burrow's impending surgery

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