Locked On Bengals - Daily Podcast On The Cincinnati Bengals - Will the Bengals' pass rush make or break their season?

Starting point is 00:00:00 There are a lot of questions surrounding the Cincinnati Bengals pass rush. And if they don't get them answered, could that sink the season? Let's break it down. You are Locked on Bengals, your daily Cincinnati Bengals podcast. Part of the Locked On Podcast Network, your team every day. What out, Bengals fans, and welcome to another episode of the Lockdown Bengals podcast. Part of the Lockdown Podcast Network, your team every day. I'm Jake Liscoe.

Starting point is 00:00:32 He's James Rapine, and we are your host of the Lockdown Bengals Podcast. We've been covering this team on this podcast since 2016 between the two of us. And if you're looking for a place to get daily updates, news analysis on your Cincinnati Bengals, you are in the right place. You can hit that subscribe button on YouTube or anywhere you get your podcast and join all the everydayers out there that don't miss an episode of the Locktown Bengals podcast. We appreciate all of you so very much, including those of you who make Locktown Bengals your first listening and have all those good listening habits that we'd like to talk about here on Locked On. Bengals. For those of you wondering, we are back to five episodes a week, the week before training camp. So we've got one more week on the three episode a week schedule, the everydayers

Starting point is 00:01:17 know this and have heard us talk about this before. But for the next couple of weeks, or for the next week, I guess, we're coming up on training camp in a hurry. Look for episodes on Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday, afternoon, evening. And then we'll be back with a training camp preview that week before training camp. Today, James, we dive into a vintage Lockdown Bengals Mailbag where there are just a ton of questions here about the pass rush in some way, shape, or form, whether it's about Trey Hendrickson and Shemar Stewart, whether it's about even if Trey is Trey, where's the pass rush coming from?

Starting point is 00:01:51 It's a big topic. It's heavily on the minds of our listeners today. And I think at this point in the off season, a good time to talk about it. So let's start here. Before we dive into the questions, how concerned? do you think people should be overall about the Bengals pass rush? And let's say assuming Trey plays this year. Concerned.

Starting point is 00:02:12 I think that's the biggest question mark of the defense. To me, there's reason to believe the secondary could be okay. And we've seen Logan Wilson play solid. They drafted a linebacker who should be entering his prime right now. So I think when you look at that, it's like, all right, well, what's the biggest concern? and they address T.J. Slate, and they address the nose tackle issue from a strict run-stopping standpoint. I think he'll help there. But it's pass rush. Are you going to have enough juice? Are you going to be able to on third and 16 and fourth and 16 get after opposing quarterbacks and make them uncomfortable and not let Jaden Daniels stay in rhythm all game long? not let Lamar go up and down the field like he did and make him uncomfortable.

Starting point is 00:02:58 Are you going to be able to do that? That's the question. And the pass rush would go a long way. And with Trey, you still need, I would say, multiple pieces, multiple guys, whether it's Joseph Osai, Miles Murphy, obviously Shamar Stewart, step up on the edge. And then you're really hoping that T.J. Slayton can unlock a bit more on the interior, whether it's BJ Hill, whether it's Chris Jenkins, what one of these guys, maybe it's McKinley Jackson,

Starting point is 00:03:28 to give you some interior pressure, we'll see if it happens, but I think it's the biggest question mark when it comes to this defense by far. It's kind of the piece that could either lock or unlock the rest of the defense. It's a band-aid for so many teams where, yeah, if they can get after the passer, it can cover up deficiencies in the secondary potentially,

Starting point is 00:03:55 or it can cover up issues elsewhere, coverage bust, for example, because you're home that quickly. And we've seen Trey Hendrickson specifically accomplish this before on his own at times. He can take over games at times. But to your point, I really wonder about the interior pressure and where that part is going to be solved. So while we know that's a concern, let's get to our mailbag questions that are thematically on point.

Starting point is 00:04:22 The first one from Booney K.Y at Boone KY to you on Twitter asking, assuming Trey is Trey, which bangle do you see being the second highest sacker this season? And how many? Where is that secondary pass rush coming from? Oh, boy. Oh, boy. I think the most popular answer would be Joseph O'Sai. I have an idea that it might be Shamar Stewart.

Starting point is 00:04:48 I still think, I still think that it could be Shamar. And it would be so funny if he, like, everyone says four and a half sacks coming into the year and then he ends up with five or six. And that's kind of the question for me. I don't really care who second. What's that second number? Because I wanted to be like eight, to be clear. Like, eight is like the, like, when you think of Hubbard and Hendrickson and when Sam Hubbard

Starting point is 00:05:14 was at his best, he's getting you like seven, eight sacks and was really good against the run. And like, you can deal with that. And I say deal with it. You'll live with that and you'll feel pretty good about it. But if whoever it is, if it's Osai or Murphy or Stewart, it's like five or six, well then you're going to be like, ah, everybody better have five or six. That better be why. And so that's where I'm at is it's like I think it could be any of those guys.

Starting point is 00:05:42 I think a lot of people would say Osai. We'll see. I think Joseph Osai has a lot to prove. Consistency, health. There's a lot of questions. So I would probably say Shamar Stewart knowing that that wouldn't be necessarily the first or even the second option. So just looking at the last couple of years, but PFF's sack counting. So PFF doesn't do half sacks.

Starting point is 00:06:03 They do only, they say if you got a sack, you got a sack. It's a full sack. Trey last year they of course had at 18 sacks. Second was Joseph Osai with five sacks with second in pressures for the Bengals. In just 15 games was BJ Hill in 2024. And BJ Hill probably has an outside shot at being the second highest. If they have a bunch of guys right around five or six, like you said, in that world, BJ Hill has done that sort of thing before you go back two years.

Starting point is 00:06:31 Trey Hendrickson had six using PFF counting. BJ Hill again in 2023 was second on the team in pressures, had five sacks. Sam Hubbard had six sacks, according to PFF counting in 2023. Go all the way back to 2022 and Sam Hubbard had. 10 PFF sacks. Trey only had nine that year, but more pressures. B.J. Hill, again, right there with five. So the question is really,

Starting point is 00:06:58 does Joseph O'Sai jump up to eight? Does Miles Murphy jump up to eight? Or are you talking about a conglomerate of guys who are going to be around that five, four, six? And can you get multiple guys at four to six sacks to go with Trey, hopefully, reprising a 15-ish sack season. Because if you could get that, then maybe that's enough.

Starting point is 00:07:25 But this is three years now. We're outside of trade. They really haven't had enough. There's no one else winning on their own. They've got all these young pieces now. They need somebody. Ideally, somebody on the interior too, and it's hard to see where that's coming from

Starting point is 00:07:41 based on what we've seen from those guys so far. But you need somebody to step up and be a real secondary piece. Yeah, it would be nice. And maybe this is their realistic hope. Instead of one guy giving you 10, maybe it's like 6, 6, 6, and then you get an interior guy not named B.J. Hill with 4. And so B.J. Hill has 5 or 4, and then you have another guy on the interior that gets you to that number.

Starting point is 00:08:08 Because then you look up, and if Trey Hendrickson's at 15, and then you have three guys that have five or six, and then you have two interior guys that combine for a number. eight you look up and it's like okay well you're getting to the quarterback enough you're getting by and you're going to have some blitz sacks and hopefully maybe dachshund gives you three or four you know who knows who knows how they they go with that but you're going to have to get to however it is the sum of the parts is going to have to be what what do you think overall sackwise you 50 sacks where were they last year like 35 or something like It was miserable last year.

Starting point is 00:08:49 I think there is a minimum that you have to get to be reasonably viable, but where they haven't necessarily had crazy sack totals in the past, they've been able to get after the passer in significant ways from a pressure perspective. Last year, the Bengals had 36 sacks. Yeah, there were only three teams with more than 50 last year. The Broncos led the way with 63. So if you get in the 40s, you're probably you're probably. good. You know, you want 43,

Starting point is 00:09:19 43 to 47 in that range. So you're probably passable at that point. You go back to 2022, they only have 30 sacks. So you're passable at that point, 2020, 17 sacks. So like the Bengals, for the most part, have not been racking out sacks at a rate where you need them to to be where you need them to be.

Starting point is 00:09:43 Yeah. So a big task ahead. think for them from a pressure perspective this year. We have a couple more questions about the past rush about defense events. We will jump back into those questions coming up next. Today's show is brought to you by Game Time. We've all been there, logging on early and waiting forever for concert tickets to go on sale, only to lose your spot for a show you've been dying to see. Live music should be about making memories and not dealing with a stress of ticket shopping. That's where Game Time comes in. Game time makes getting concert tickets easier and faster

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Starting point is 00:10:50 Again, created an account and redeem code L-O-C-E-D-O-N-N-FL-L-N-FL-L-N-FL for $20 off. Download game time today. Last-minute tickets, lowest price guaranteed. Diving back into the mailbag, James, we have predictably, a Shemar Stewart question. This one comes from Tony Blunt at Admiral Task Bar on Twitter, assuming that Shemar Stewart is present for the entirety of training camp. And what sense, at what point will we get a sense of how ready he is for the NFL?

Starting point is 00:11:21 It seems like it would be hard to judge a rookie edge rusher adequately in a training camp setting. It will be. It will be. And I think it's going to be hard even in preseason. Let's say he's out there. You want to see the disruption. You want to see how he does look when they go live against Orlando Brown Jr. And go live against him, of course.

Starting point is 00:11:42 But if he's dominant, you're going to be like, okay, well, he's still going to have to get to quarterback on the ground, which obviously was an issue for him in college. And if he's not, what's okay? He's figuring it out because he's going up against those guys. Like, so it's, I'm not sure we're going to get an answer one way or another, but you get some information. And that experience is the real key, I think, is it getting through whether it's figuring it out or figuring out the strength and the size and everything that he's going to deal with in the NFL. And he's got plenty of it, but it's different in the NFL. Life is going to be different. So we're going to be able to tell some of it, but we've seen, we've seen guys be disruptive

Starting point is 00:12:22 in the preseason. Joseph Osai, when he got in the preseason, it was like, oh, my goodness, his rookie year, he's going to matter. Then he gets hurt. And really since then, outside of some flashes, it hasn't been there. It doesn't mean it's not going to be there this year. It could be. I get why they resigned him, by the way.

Starting point is 00:12:42 It's not an anti-Joseph Osai thing. But my point is, is you want to be. to see flashes, but even if you see those flashes, it doesn't mean he's going to be great. At the same time, if you don't see those flashes, it doesn't mean that he's going to be a bum or a bust. And so I think that gathering the information is valuable, but I'm not going to overreact. And by mid-year, we should see some regular disruption. I think that would be a realistic thing.

Starting point is 00:13:11 That might start week one, and you may check that box. but it may take a few weeks for him to get acclimated for sure. The thing that I like about this question is that it's when will we know how ready he is for the NFL? And I think the Joseph Osaya example is so interesting because yeah, he got hurt and that probably really threw things off for him. But he was also playing a ton, which suggested that from a coaching perspective, they think, thought he needed that run. They thought he needed that experience. And so I think if we're seeing a lot of Shamar Stewart late into preseason games, especially as a preseason is coming to the end, have a pretty good idea of how ready the coaches think he is for the NFL. If they think he needs

Starting point is 00:14:02 those reps, that probably means the coaching staff thinks that he's not quite ready. He needs more seasoning. He needs that experience. He needs as much experience as he can get. If we see them scale it back for him a little bit. And you see a ton of production. You see him, you know, working in with the ones and practices. You see him taking over with the ones and getting a predominant stretch of work with the first team defensive line in team drills. And then you see that also translate to preseason games. Or maybe it's early in the season. Maybe it's week two. You see Shamar Stewart's a starter. Then I think you'll have a sense of what the coaches think. Now, whether or not the coaches are right is another question, but I think that is the easiest

Starting point is 00:14:47 barometer from the outside for the question of NFL readiness. Like the coaches are probably sitting there assessing his NFL readiness as much as they can going into the season because they're trying to figure out what are our rotations. Is this guy active? Or do we think Cedric Johnson is in a better place because he has a year of experience under his belt? Like, I'm not saying that that's a likely question. I should be talking.

Starting point is 00:15:12 But it's not a totally unreasonable thing. Like if Schmar Stewart doesn't show up for three weeks of training camp, because I can't get the deal done, and he doesn't get onto the field, then that's a real question going into the regular season. This is saying, assuming that he's there for all of training camp, they should have those answers by then. But I think those are the ways that you'll be able to determine how ready, at least the coaches feel he is to play in the NFL.

Starting point is 00:15:38 Hopefully he's getting a lot of playing time because we've got this history. with Cincinnati rookies, especially first round rookies, not making a big impact unless their first overall picks or fifth overall picks. And so it would be nice to see the bagels get that first year impact here from Samar Stewart. Yeah. If I'm him, I would be approaching training camp.

Starting point is 00:15:59 Obviously, you have other contracts left, but you also have to separate that. If I'm him, my goal will be, all right, I'm going to be a day one starter. And that should have been his goal when he was drafted. That should be his goal now. We'll see if he can get there. or we'll see if he can earn the trust.

Starting point is 00:16:12 I get it. Joseph, besides a veteran, all those things, Miles Murphy's year three, prove it. I'm Shamar. I'm like,

Starting point is 00:16:18 I'm bigger, better, faster, stronger than you. I'm going to go earn it. We'll see if it happens. But that should be his mindset, I would say,

Starting point is 00:16:27 as training camp approaches. Yeah, exactly. I mean, should be everybody's mindset. You know, you can deliver on that mindset. Well,

Starting point is 00:16:35 like Charlie Jones knows he's not starting. You know, like every young player on this defensive line, be going into training camp thinking, I'm going to win a starting job. You think? You think Chris Jenkins could win starting over B.J. Hill, I guess. That should be the mentality.

Starting point is 00:16:51 I mean, B.J. I mean, Chris Jenkins is a starter in some packages because like defensive tackles weird. Slayton's going to be a starter and the starter quote unquote in some packages. And I think unless it's McKinley Jackson, then it's going to be Chris Jenkins and other interior defensive linemen combinations. Yeah. I don't think there's as many start. starting jobs.

Starting point is 00:17:14 Anyway, I'm not trying to take it down that. I mean, I'm mostly thinking about edge, right? Like, every single edge guy besides Ray Hendrickson should be going into I'm going to go win that job. And that includes Samar Stewart. Absolutely. But like whether or not you can deliver on that mentality is an entirely other question, separate question.

Starting point is 00:17:32 No doubt. One of the many questions as we go into camp. Speaking of training camp, a couple of questions here pertaining to potential moves that could happen as a result of training camp or potentially some outside of the box thinking requested from from our listeners we'll finish with those questions coming up next some moves some moves you got a question about some moves everyone knows i like moves jake yeah yeah like like dance moves or what well yes everyone that watches knows i like you got to got to hit them with a shoulder shimmy all right what what questions we have so so just to set the stage here

Starting point is 00:18:13 One of the first questions I saw when I was looking at our mailbag questions was from Bengal bro Nick. And he was asking, do you feel like the Bengals Brass are that much smarter than fans? The glaring need of guard literally puts your entire franchise in limbo. So that's like the mentality that we've got with some fans right now. As Paul D.N.r. Jr. is currently conducting his fan survey over the athletic. And it's always interesting to see those results. Tend to tend to be on a downslope when the team isn't performing well. And I'm expecting that'll be the case this year.

Starting point is 00:18:43 But Paul Kennedy then asks a specific question and love it when we get questions from over the pond. Paul's in Manchester in England. Which position group is most likely to disappoint in training camp in the preseason so much that the team is forced to go get a guy? Is it the interior offensive line and they feel like they have to get Scherf or have to get Rizner? Is it at safety? Julian Blackman. We've talked about him a ton. Is it a corner?

Starting point is 00:19:14 Do they feel like they're going to need to go get a veteran corner? Is it a wide receiver? Do they feel like maybe their depth is tested and they need a better option to be wide receiver three? Or is it not listed in this set of multiple choice answers from Paul? Is we're not doing health, right? We're not saying, oh, well. I mean, obviously, if a guy gets hurt, then that could force their head. So as it's presently constructed,

Starting point is 00:19:40 what where is it oh man if this is a tough question i don't think it's receiver right and i'm going to leave off the field as well you obviously hope germain can establish himself as a fourth guy i think they feel really good about one through three and mike kisicki's part of that three i don't think it's a tight end i think they feel pretty confident there i'm just trying to think of like where it would be and and to me because a lot of people would say guard but wouldn't they just say, all right, well, Cody Ford, all right, well, Cordell, or all right, well, maybe they go to the Matt Lee or the Jalen Rivers. Like, I just think that that's where they would go before signing.

Starting point is 00:20:25 Like, I really do. And so it's tough for me to say that. I think it might be safety. They save some money on Gino if, if Gino just is awful in camp. And I don't, I haven't heard that that's, that was the case this off season. And so maybe it's not, maybe he's playing well. I just, I don't, I don't think it's linebacker at all. I, I don't think that they're going to say, all right, well, we're going to go sign Zadaria Smith now on the edge.

Starting point is 00:20:55 I, I may, maybe you could say interior pass rusher, but there's a reason they haven't gone out and gotten anyone yet. And there really isn't much out there. So I would say probably safety would be the one. And I don't think it's that likely either. Like I just, I kind of think that they like where they're at in a lot of these spots for better or worse. I think from a perspective of the positions listed, I tend to agree. I think they have too many options on the offensive line to really say that they're going to go make a move, which. In their mind, in their mind.

Starting point is 00:21:29 They absolutely should. But, I mean, we've consistently all off season been asking for them to sign a real starting guard from. First wave free agency to every single week since that. Corner, I could only see corner happening if they really have a lot of injuries there. I think that's also true for wide receiver. I don't necessarily think a safety move is likely. I think that if you were to say what position is most likely to see the Bengals have to go sign a veteran in the preseason process, I would say interior defensive line.

Starting point is 00:22:10 But that's assuming that, like, health is a potential issue at some point because it seems like it's often an issue and they only have four guys and a couple college free agents there. One injury. Exactly. Like if BJ Hill isn't fully healed at the start of camp, well, they're probably adding somebody, right? Yeah. If it's like a start of camp issue, then it might be a college free agent type, like a CFL type of play, you know, something like that.

Starting point is 00:22:37 like a guy that's like a long shot to make the practice squad. And we've seen them do this in the past, like the 90th player on the 90 man, if BJ Hill is not ready. But if it's something like, you know, what they dealt with last year where they had guys go out and they weren't going to be ready for week one,

Starting point is 00:22:53 then I think having lived through what they lived through last year, they might go get a veteran in that case. And now it might not be a guy that you're very excited about, like it wasn't last year. But I think that that depth, issue there could force their hand. Yeah. It's it's wild because

Starting point is 00:23:15 a lot of us would say guard, a lot of us would say pass-fisher. Zadariah Smith, you'd be in on, right? I would. Like, why not at a proven guy? Julian Blackman, we'd be in on. I think a lot of people would be in on Justin Simmons. And what's interesting is, is I don't, I think

Starting point is 00:23:31 the Bengals would say, not we like who we have, but we have guys that are just as good. Like, Gino Stone is better than Julian Blackburn. There's a reason he's out there. There's a reason why this guy or that guy. I will see. Assante Samuel Jr. would be the one that I would be open to. Even with the health stuff, I know he's getting,

Starting point is 00:23:51 I heard he's going to be healthy by the time the season rolls around. So that would be a guy I would take a flyer on. I don't think they are in on it. But anyway. Yeah. I mean, there are a lot of players that you should kick the time. hires on. What about outside the box? This is the final question coming from final boss at the Cisco 89 on Twitter. What are what are the non-obvious additions that you would like to see

Starting point is 00:24:17 the Bengals make? Is it a running back, a kicker, a long snapper? What kind of outside the box addition do you think we should be talking about? Ooh, outside the box would be, I mean, I think wide receiver would be potentially outside the box. Honestly, I know we've thought, we thought about it a little bit and talked about it. It's really how much are you, because you have three guys you really believe in, and T, Jemar, and Andre. You have a fourth guy in Mike Gisicki,

Starting point is 00:24:51 who helps in that area. And then after that, it's, we'll see on Germain. We'll see on Charlie Jones. We'll see on all these guys. And I think that's, that would be the one I think. And I think it would surprise a lot of people, but Isaiah Williams, I think he's an intriguing

Starting point is 00:25:12 prospect as he goes into year two. But if he makes the team, it's probably just going to be because of his returnability. I think we kind of know what Kendrick Pryor is. So that would be the one I think that would surprise a lot of people that they theoretically could look at and be like, especially if they don't think that Germain is ready to go and say, all right, well, can we find the next Tretton Irwin, veteran stabilizing guy? that can come in and just do what we tell them to do. You're talking about the margins at that point.

Starting point is 00:25:41 It's hard to find it outside the box idea that could help them significantly because we've talked about all the things that we think could help them significantly so much. And that's like the guard, the safety, the defensive linemen. And we've talked about those a ton, all offseason. We've talked about those. The one that I would throw out potentially is maybe a tight end. I don't think that guy is out there, though. And I don't know who exactly is available.

Starting point is 00:26:12 I have to go look. But maybe a tight end is really the only idea that I've got. And luckily, Matt Bowen from ESPN just put out a new list of the best free agents available. So I'm going to take a peek at that real quick here and see if there's a tight end on his list. There's not. 17 guys oh buddy yeah there's some edge guys

Starting point is 00:26:42 there's some safeties judge of quills reportedly going to sit out the year but you know we've talked about judge of quills yeah by the way if he wasn't sitting out the year I would be in on that but

Starting point is 00:26:53 what about what about Mike Hilton you think that like totally ship sailed like say they get to camp they're not really happy with what they have in the slot you think that Mike Hilton just doesn't fit what they're doing Yeah, I do.

Starting point is 00:27:09 I think that's where they're at, unfortunately. And I love Mike. I would love to have Mike on this roster. Like, that's the balance. But I think from what they're doing, because there's a difference. One, what we would do, one, what they're doing, and one, what we think they would do. And I just don't think that Mike is in the mix there. I do think he'll sign before camp, but not here.

Starting point is 00:27:34 Not here. that's too bad too still playing you know reasonably well dude i mean yeah you could you could use him it's it's it's weird to you that he's not on a team right now yeah and maybe that says choice i i should ask him ask him how things are going i haven't talked to him in a while yeah yeah i i i hope so i the thing is you don't want him like freaking joining the steelers and blitz and burrow and having to deal with that like i just don't want to deal with mike like go sign somewhere we're we're you know what we'll see in Santa Clara Mike in February not

Starting point is 00:28:10 not before that he joins the Ravens and he's just like part of that well the Ravens are probably pretty full at corner but but yeah like the return to Pittsburgh like the James Harrison kind of thing where you just go be a thorn in the Bengal side again well we are out of time here we've got a question that is going to a prop an entire episode here from Vincent

Starting point is 00:28:34 Bayless. So look for that in our next episode. Who are the lottery players for the Cincinnati Bengals? The players that outside of the stars, you know, the long shots to hit. And if they do hit, it can make a big difference. We'll talk about the Bengals lottery tickets in our next episode. Until then, thanks for listening to this episode of the Lockdown Bengals podcast. Hootay and have a good one.

Locked On Bengals - Daily Podcast On The Cincinnati Bengals - Will the Bengals' pass rush make or break their season?

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