Locked On Cardinals - Daily Podcast On The St. Louis Cardinals - DECISION TIME: Cardinals Catching DEPTH Tested as Leo Bernal and Ivan Herrera BATTLE for 2027

Starting point is 00:00:00 The catching depth in the St. Louis Cardinals organization is a strength for sure. But who are the best fits for the 2027 roster? This is Locked on Cardinals. You are Locked on Cardinals. Your daily St. Louis Cardinals podcast, part of the Locked on Podcast Network, your team every day. Hey there, Cardinals fans. I'm J.D. Hafford. And today's episode is brought to you by Cal She for a limited time. Download Cal She and use code locked on to get $25 when you choose.

Starting point is 00:00:34 trade $25. Cal Shee, trade what's next? On today's show, we're going to hit some news and notes from around the league. We'll take a look at the playoff pictures, including a very scary injury to Alex Bregman, which was very similar to an injury that ended one former Cardinals career. We're going to break down Tuesday nights loss in Pittsburgh, although there wasn't really a whole lot of action to speak of in that one. But we're going to start today with the catching position for the Cardinals.

Starting point is 00:00:59 And the reason that this sparked my interest and got me thinking. about it is that ever since Leo Bernal got called up, he's done pretty much everything you could possibly want him to do to prove that he belongs in the big leagues. Now, had he come up and struggled mightily and looked out of place, we might be having a completely different conversation. But he's been pretty awesome. He's been up for going into Tuesday night's game. It was 18 games. So 19 now. But he at the time when I put these stats together, I had 79 plate appearances, was batting 311 with four home runs, 17 RBIs,

Starting point is 00:01:40 354 OBP, the slug was at 514 OPS of 868. The OPS plus was at 145. WRC plus was at 140. Like, he's been amazing. As a catcher coming into Tuesday's game, he was hitting 360 with three home runs in 14 RBI. This is a first baseman, three for eight. as a DH, just two for 16.

Starting point is 00:02:06 But among catchers of Major League Baseball, over those past 15 days going into Tuesday's game, he was third in hits. He was second in home runs, second in RBIs, second at batting average, right there at the top for all the other fun stats like the OBP, slugging, an OPS. The bottom line is that he has made such an impression

Starting point is 00:02:27 at the ripe old age of 22, that it got me wondering what, do we think they want to do with the catching position next season? Because now you got a bunch of different options, but you've got Bernal, who feels like he's the guy you want to roll with as your main catcher, the main backstop. He can do it all, switch hitter, good defensively, although I feel like we have seen him struggle here at the major league.

Starting point is 00:03:04 league level so far. Made his fifth error already on Tuesday night, another catcher's interference call. But he's got a strong arm. We've seen that on display. We also know we can play some first base, which is great. You like somebody who can do a little bit of everything outside of just having to be a catcher, you know, when there's a day that or an injury or something that requires him to play some first base, you're okay with them doing that. You've also got Yvonne Herrera, who is in his first full season after offseason surgery, and has really struggled throwing runners out. He struggled before the surgery, he struggles after the surgery,

Starting point is 00:03:47 has trouble throwing runners out from behind the dish. And I keep saying this over and over. It's not always his fault. But people take advantage of them. Offensively, hasn't been quite as productive as he was last year. 2025 he appeared 107 games, 452 played appearances at 284, 19 home run 66 RBI's OPS plus of 138.

Starting point is 00:04:10 He was amazing. This year there's been some drop off. 692 plate appearances coming into Tuesday, hitting 247, 18 home run 68 RBIs, the OPS plus down to 114. Not that those numbers are bad. That's not what I'm saying. They just aren't at the same pace as he was last year.

Starting point is 00:04:29 And perhaps coming off of surgery, that's part of it. perhaps playing behind the plate as much as he has has worn him down. Perhaps other people around the league have figured out ways to get him out regularly. Either way, I don't think the Cardinals are ready to punt on him as a member of the catching group. But when he is behind the plate, he's been a liability at stopping base runners from stealing. That's just the facts. Next on the list you got Pedro Pahez.

Starting point is 00:05:01 defensive first guy. Everybody loves him in the clubhouse. You know, he's one of those guys that everybody gets along with. But OPS plus of 66 this year. And that's just not nearly good enough to be in a regular rotation when you've got two other guys in Bernal and Herrera who hit much, much better than that. And they've had all three on the roster since Bernal got called up. He's appeared in just six games over that time span, 10 played appearances. Having three catchers on the roster next year makes very little sense to me. Like, you know what Ivan Herrera is. And if you're going to continue having him be a catcher, he's going to be one of two.

Starting point is 00:05:49 You know, you want to be able to have somebody else who can do more things for you. You want to have, you know, a C.J.C. and it for mean. And you like having a guy like a Brian Torres who can do a bunch of different positions, positions from the left-handed side. You know, who knows? Who knows who else they'll have up on the big league roster as a utility guy? We'll see. But it doesn't feel like three catchers is something they're going to need to do next year.

Starting point is 00:06:15 And then you've got Jimmy Crux. Never got going offensively at the big league level last year when he got called up. And this year, he got a longer look. And the results weren't all that impressive this year either. Hit just 179 with five home runs and 14. RBIs, 48 strikeouts at 149 plate appearances, strikeout percentage was at 32.2, OPS plus of just 68. Again, that's not going to get it done.

Starting point is 00:06:42 And he continues to hit really well at AAA Memphis at another big night on a Tuesday night for Memphis. But for whatever reason, the big league level, maybe it's because he's not getting normal playing time. it just it just never clicked quite the way we all hoped it would. And then at AA, you have your top catching prospect, who's rated as the top catching prospect in baseball, according to a lot of publications in Renio Rodriguez,

Starting point is 00:07:14 who's still just 19 years old. But all he's done is that it's not out of the baseball at every single level he goes to. And he's helped lead the Springfield team to the. Texas League finals again. Now, there's no rush to bring Rodriguez up. And if there's a work stoppage, he's not on the 40 man, so there's no danger of him not being able to play. He'll be eligible to continue playing in the minor leagues while the labor dispute

Starting point is 00:07:41 runs its course. It's fine. I ran a poll on X asking about how fans would attack the catch situation for next season, what they wanted to look like. And just under 50% of the votes went to Bernal Herrera duo. 31.8% said Bernal and crooks, 15.2% said Bernal and Pahas, but just 3% going with the three-headed monster of Bernal Herrera Pahas. The idea is that if Herrera isn't part of the catching, at least in my eyes,

Starting point is 00:08:15 if he's not a part of the catching situation that he'll either be a DH the whole time or they could use him as trade bank. to help strengthen other areas on the team that need some attention, starting rotation, bullpen, third base, center field, you know, can never have too much pitching, right? So I don't know. Let me know in the comment section, what you feel about the catching situation,

Starting point is 00:08:40 what you want to see done. Are you a believer in Herrera? Do you think the bat will come around and be better next year if he's not catching as much and is more of a DH? And if that's the case, do you have to carry a third catcher? So if something happens to your first catcher, or are you worried that you have to lose the DH

Starting point is 00:08:54 in a game. Like, I mean, is that that big of a deal if it happens in one game? I don't know. I don't think so, but that's just me. Anyhow, that's what I want to hear from you about in the comment section down below. So give me your thoughts. Up next, Andre Palantes, excellent start wasted in Pittsburgh. This is Locked on Cardinals. If you've got a sweet tooth like I tend to do, you know how tough it is to find that perfect treat without all the sugar. You know, Halloween time right now. candy everywhere. Can't be eating all that stuff. So you got to find something to like take care of that that sweet tooth craving. And that's why the fruity rainbow five hour energy shot helps me out. It brings that nostalgic flavor back in a whole new way. Fruity rainbow five hour energy shots. They treat your

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Starting point is 00:10:41 Before we get into the rest of today's show, it's time for the everyday icon presented by stance as the official sock partner, Major League Baseball stance knows greatness, isn't built in a single moment. It is earned over time through consistency, preparation, and showing up every day. That's why each week we recognize one player

Starting point is 00:10:57 whose performance embodies those same qualities. This week's everyday icon, and I'm doing this because he's back in Pittsburgh. And I want to go with JJ Weatherhole because usually, at least when we've seen him in Pittsburgh so far in his career, he's been really good. Things did not go so well on Tuesday night for anybody in the order, really. But did not look great for JJ,

Starting point is 00:11:20 but I'm hoping for good things. And I hope that he ends on a strong couple of games to wrap up the season after coming back from the wrist tendonitis. So the everyday icon is presented by stance. Check out the icon collection from Stan. premium comfort performance and durability designed for whatever your day brings. Use promo code locked on and check out for 20% off your first purchase. Stance, the official sock partner of Major League Baseball.

Starting point is 00:11:43 You can learn more at stance.com. Thanks for making Lockdown, Carlos, your first listen of the day. Thank you for making Lockdown, the number one sports podcast network now in an upcoming show later this week. We're going to be talking about some of the former Cardinals who were still in the playoff picture. There's quite a few of them sprinkled around the league right now. And a few of them are already clenched and going to the playoffs. So I want to just kind of see how they've been doing and give you guys an update on that. So we look forward to that at some point this week.

Starting point is 00:12:18 Now, Tuesday night's game, the Pirates and the Cardinals, they've both been long eliminated. But there's still a thing that we call pride, the thrill of competition, right? The need to go out and beat your opponent. You don't want to lose to win, despite wherever you are in the state, standings or where you are in the season. You compete. You go out there. Tuesday, you had Andre Palante who competed his butt off. While unfortunately, your offense looked like they wanted to be anywhere but on a baseball diamond in Pittsburgh. It was a cool fall night in Pittsburgh, very different from what we've been dealing with in St. Louis, where it's just 95 and hot and human all

Starting point is 00:13:07 the time all over the country. Temperatures dropped this this week now that fall is officially here. And our St. Louis Cardinals, maybe it had something to do with the weather that threw them off. They look terrible at the plate. Man, it's just one hit and nine innings of baseball. One. Not an easy thing to accomplish in this day and age. But that's what we witnessed on Tuesday night as the team got utterly dominated by Jared Jones and the Pirates in what ended up being a two to nothing snooze fest that I genuinely nodded off watching, I would say at least three times during the game. Now, part of that is because I'm sleep deprived. I've been busy. I've been out of town and I've been on the road.

Starting point is 00:13:55 I've been doing a bunch of things. So I'm a little worn out. The other side of it is that I have a dog that has been under the weather and waking me up every two hours to go out side to go to the use of the bathroom for like the last week. We're trying to figure out how to get her back on a good schedule because she's killing me, small. And the other part of it was this game was boring. It was. Now, here's the thing.

Starting point is 00:14:23 What's funny is if this was a playoff game or these two teams were competing for a wild card spot and you had a two to nothing ball game like this where there was low scoring, great pitching, you'd be like, this was awesome. This was so intense. Things could have changed at any moment. But when it's two teams that have nothing on the line right now, very easy to get distracted by other things or to have your eyelids shut down for a couple of minutes at a time because there just wasn't a lot going on.

Starting point is 00:15:02 You know, I found myself actually flipping over to the Yankees of the race game for a decent amount of this because that had some meaning. I just, I really miss the Cardinals being playoff relevant. I miss it so bad. But anyways, back to what we did see. Good stuff from Andre Palante, who rattled off six innings of one run ball. He allows just three hits. Only walks to, he strikes out to 13 ground balls. Very Andreesque, right? He's been such a pleasant surprise this season. And because of this, instead of being someone who's just, you know, we thought maybe it was just holding down a spot in the rotation during a rebuild year, he's now someone that you're kind of counting on for the next year or two. Or you can even use him as trade bait,

Starting point is 00:15:50 depending on how you feel about some of the guys that are behind him, health-wise, that could make an impact the next time they take the field, whatever that may be, hopefully 2027. The one run that he does allow in this one comes in the bottom of the sixth inning when he allowed a one-out walk to O'Neill Cruz. And we know how the cartels just don't have a lot of room for stuff like that. And when they walk somebody, a lot of the times they come back to bite him. And he gives up this one-out walk to O'Neill Cruz. Cruz was breaking on the ground ball that was hit the third base by Raphael Flores Jr. So that force, Jaycey, who was playing at third base tonight, to go to first base with the ball. So now you got two outs, but a runner on second.

Starting point is 00:16:36 And, you know, you got to tip the cap to Ryan O'Hart, who did a good piece of hitting. He kind of inside outs, swing from the left-hand side and punches it between short and third to make it one to nothing. Cruz, if Cruz is it running on that one ground ball, the third base, that's probably a 5,4-3 double play. And we're not talking about this at all. But the pirates get the ball in play on back-to-back. at bats and they capitalize on the walk, they use their speed. That's what you got to do. That's what you got to do, man.

Starting point is 00:17:10 It's the ways that a lot of these teams that aren't slugging teams, that's how they win ball games. And the pirates did it very well right there. But overall, Palante strong and it's too bad. The offense offered almost nothing to support him. Rob Raines points out that this was actually Palanté's first road loss of the season. and I did not know that. He had been 7 and 0 with 5 no decisions and 12 starts on the road this year.

Starting point is 00:17:37 And now has allowed only 21 runs in 71 in the third innings in those starts, ERA at 2.65. That's getting it done. The other run for Pittsburgh came in the 7th inning when yet again. It's a walk that comes around to burn him. Justin Bruill walks the lead off hitter. How many times do we tell you? No, no, no, no, no.

Starting point is 00:17:56 Make them hit to get on. Don't walk them. They'll come around. But he walks Horowitz on four straight when he comes in the game. One out single by Connor Griffin makes it first and second. But you get a line out to center field. Horowitz tags up, goes to third base. Two outs.

Starting point is 00:18:14 So Ali goes to the right-handercade Winquest to face the switch hitter Reynolds. He wants Reynolds hitting from the left side. Winquest goes up on him, oh, two count. O two count. He throws a wild pitch, breaks one off that almost hits Reynolds in the foot, not even close to the strikes. So Bernal had no chance whatsoever. Goes all the way to the backstop, brings in run number two. Griffin, who was stealing on the play, sees that it's been a wild pitch.

Starting point is 00:18:41 So he rounds second and tries to get the third. Heads up play by Bernal, who turned and saw him and just throws a seat down to third base, guns him at third base to end the inning. So that was actually a really nice play by Bernal. But another learning moment for WinQuest, who continues to show the strikeout stuff. and whom I have high hopes for next year as a member of this bullpen. But, you know, he just spikes it there, trying to, trying to overthrow it and get the strikeout. It ends up costing the card little an extra run there.

Starting point is 00:19:10 Not that it mattered in the end because the offense was atrocious. But Jared Jones, fine young pitcher, had his A-stuff going and just slice through the hitters like a knife through warm butter. Jones had a perfect game going until the sixth inning when Nathan Church flared that bloop double to break up the bid for history. but that was the only hit in the game for St. Louis. It was an absolutely miserable night with the sticks. Just one hit, two walks, 14 strikeouts. You're one and two hitters, J.J. Weatherholt and Yvon-Herrera, when it combined 0-4-8 with seven strikeouts,

Starting point is 00:19:40 Herrera against the Golden Simperero strikes out four times. The only hitters who didn't strike out were Alec Berlison and Jordan Walker, who were 0-4-7. Walker just looks worn down. He has worn down considerably here at the end of the season. Last 15 games, he's batting 100. No home runs, no Rolson. RBI's 20 strikeouts and 50 at bats.

Starting point is 00:19:59 Last home run September 1st in L.A., which feels like 100 years ago. Leo Berdall, 0 for 3, two strikeouts, another catcher's interference call against him in this one, which I don't know if that was a problem for him down to the minor leagues, but he's not got five errors since getting called up, so you've got to clean that up. Another nugget from Rob Raines. This was only the second time in 211 games. The Cardinals have played at PMC Park since it opened. open in 01 when they were shut out on only one hit.

Starting point is 00:20:30 The other time came on April 17, 2013. The only other time the Cardinals were shut out on one hit in Pittsburgh was back in 1935, long time ago. Forgettable night for sure for the St. Louis Cardinals. Coming up next, we're going to do some news and notes from around the league. We'll talk about the playoff pictures. We're also going to talk about the minor leagues, including losses for Springfield and Memphis. 0 for three for the organization on Tuesday. not fun, not fun. We'll get to that coming up next on Locked on Cardinals.

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Starting point is 00:22:09 Now, St. Louis was trading at 44% to beat the Pittsburgh Pirates on Tuesday night, which meant that a $100 trade would have paid out $21. if they had won. Now, if you had gone with the Pirates on a $100 trade, that would have paid out $175.85, and they ended up winning. So it was up to you on who you wanted to go with. And those who chose the Pirates ended up winning. On CalShe, you're trading against peers at a live market, meaning there's no house.

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Starting point is 00:23:02 for more information. See calcci.com slash regulatory. Once again, thanks for making lockdown Cardinals your first listen of the day. And thank you for making it locked on the number one sports podcast network. So the Springfield Cardinals

Starting point is 00:23:23 lost in game two of their Texas League championships series. I know. Shocking stuff. They got shut out too by a score 4 to nothing, which is crazy, considering how their office has just been cruising.

Starting point is 00:23:36 Joyker Pujardo took the L, giving up all four runs in three innings. Daniel Egan was awesome over the final six innings. He allowed just four hits and struck out seven. Just like the big league club, though, the offense just could not get anything going. Championship will be decided on Wednesday night in Springfield. Liam Doyle gets the start. So that should be cool.

Starting point is 00:23:56 Him and a big time moment for his team. So we'll see if he can rise to the occasion. I'm hoping he does. Memphis dropped one, game one, I should say, of their International League Championship series to the Rochester Red Wings, final score of that one, four to three catcher Jimmy Crooks led their offense with a three for four night hit a solo home run he had two RBIs gerangelo Sanger allowed four runs on eight hits he walked two he struck out six uh hansel rinconne that we got to a see for a very brief glimpse at the major league level

Starting point is 00:24:27 um he pitched in this one sandro santana was awesome matt sponson remember him uh those three guys combined for three innings of scoreless relief game two is scheduled for wednesday night at auto zone park with uh mason malina Set to get the start. Matthew Libertor is going to be on the mound for the Cardinals in the final start of his season on Wednesday night in Pittsburgh. So, you know, we'll see if Libby can end on a good note. MLB playoffs-wise, the Brewers have clinched the first round by and home field advantage in the NLDS, despite losing to the Philly, 6-4. Former Cardinal Dustin May got the start coming back on short rest so he could pitch once more during the final series of the regular season against the Cardinals.

Starting point is 00:25:09 just has to face us, doesn't he? He goes two winnings, the last two runs on one hit, two runs shot by Brandon Marsh and walked two while striking out to the ERA since the trade two Milwaukee is now at 5.61 in nine starts. So not exactly sure if Milwaukee's pleased with that. He's had a couple of good starts, but most of them have not gone so well. Cobbs ended up losing on Tuesday night,

Starting point is 00:25:33 so they haven't clinched yet. They also lost Alex Breggman to a foul ball on Sunday. He was standing not on the on deck circle where he's supposed to be, but he was on deck. And eerily similar to what happened to Juan Encarnacione when he was a member of the Cardinals, got hit in the face with a deflected foul ball and got him right, just pow, right in the face. Bregman suffered multiple fractures similar to what happened to Incarnation ended his career. But Bregman will not be going on the IL apparently. It looks awful like his face is like Rocky Balboa beat up, but not going on the IL.

Starting point is 00:26:12 So they're hoping he's going to be okay and can play in the playoffs, which would be wild. Padre's lost to the Dodgers as well, so Arizona still alive. Guardians win their sixth in a row. They remain a game up on the White Sox in the AL Central. Chicago has won three in a row to keep pace. And right now they're in a wild card spot as well as trying to win the division. raise me the Yankees at New York to win the East. Love watching that Tampa team play.

Starting point is 00:26:39 Great team baseball. They've been doing it for years now, the bunting, the situational hitting. They're smart. They're just smarter than everybody else. They don't have the payroll of everybody else, but they're smarter than almost everybody else. Just like Milwaukee does it too. They don't spend a ton of money.

Starting point is 00:26:58 Don't hit a ton of home runs. But they just play smart. Houston shuts out Seattle and Texas lost to the Mets. So they're tied in the AOS right now. So that's coming down to the wire and whomever does not win. That division in the AOS is likely staying home. So all of that fun stuff, I just wish it involved the Cardinals. You know, it's a bummer to watch this stuff.

Starting point is 00:27:26 And as a baseball fan to enjoy it and be like, gosh, look how cool this is. and it seems like it's been 10 years since the Cardinals were relevant and a part of all of this October stuff. So hopefully they'll get back there, man. They're headed in the right direction, right? They're building something. And we knew that this year was going to be a struggle. So I can't get all bent out of shape about it. It makes me wish, you know, the last time we got to see him in the playoffs was against the Phillies.

Starting point is 00:27:56 And they lost the two in a row. the one comeback victory, which against Helsley, remember? Yeah, it was brutal. But the scene at Bush Stadium in those games was awesome. I miss it. Thanks for making a lockdown Carlos first listen every day. If you haven't already gives a follow on accident, allo underscore Cardinals, TikTok, Instagram.

Starting point is 00:28:16 We're at Lockdown Cardinals. You could like and subscribe on YouTube for your second list and check out MLB Game Night, every game every night until the World Series champion is crowned. Local analysis, but on a national scale, you can find MLB Game Night on the Lockedon, MLB YouTube channel, to your podcast. You guys are the best fans in baseball for a reason. We'll see you next time

Starting point is 00:28:33 on Locked on Cardinals.

Locked On Cardinals - Daily Podcast On The St. Louis Cardinals - DECISION TIME: Cardinals Catching DEPTH Tested as Leo Bernal and Ivan Herrera BATTLE for 2027

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