Locked On Cardinals - Daily Podcast On The St. Louis Cardinals - St. Louis Cardinals’ Masyn Winn Out of Top 10 Shortstops—Is It JUSTIFIED?

Starting point is 00:00:00 Mason Wend just put together a defensive clinic this season, setting a new gold standard at shortstop for the Cardinals. But on today's Locked on Cardinals, we break down wide, despite his defensive performance, he's still not considered elite. You are Locked on Cardinals, your daily St. Louis Cardinals podcast, part of the Locked on Podcast Network, your team every day. Hey there, Cardinals fans. I'm J.D. Hafford, a former national radio sports anchor, born and raised in St. Louis and a lifetime Cardinals fan. and welcome to another episode of Lockdown Cardinals. Part of the Lockdown Podcast Network now, the number one, sports podcast network. Thank you to our everydayers for always being there.

Starting point is 00:00:43 For you newcomers, welcome aboard. We're over 13,500 subscribers now. So thank you very much. This is a show serving Cardal Nation, giving you all the info about the birds on the bat. Today's show, we will not be working with a frozen screen because we figured out what the problem was. So now you'll get to see my ugly mug moving around like normal.

Starting point is 00:01:03 You're also going to find out. out of where the Cardinals Farm System ranked among the rest of the teams, according to Keith Law from the athletic and his thoughts on the team's top prospects. But we're going to start today talking about the shortstop position where the Cardinals Mason win had, I mean, one heck of a season defensively, right? So much that he won his first gold glove award, right? That's special. Establishing himself as one of the best defensive shortstaps in the league had a 994

Starting point is 00:01:29 fielding percentage, which was first among all qualified shortstops. He had a plus 21 outs above average, which was second only to Bobby Witt Jr. from the Kansas City Royals. He committed only three errors in 501 total chances, which was the lowest total among qualified shortstops. He was tied for seven and defensive runs saved. And overall, his 2025 ranks among the best defensive seasons by a shortstop in MLB history. It truly was a special year for Mason win with the glove. offensively. I don't think there's going to be a lot of people out there who disagree that I think all of us as a collective, Mason included, expected more.

Starting point is 00:02:11 We expected more offensively, but we know that knee injury popped up and ended up having surgery on it. And that was one of the reasons why things slowed down. Finish with the 253 average nine home runs, 51 RBIs, nine stolen bases, the OPS plus of 90, which, yeah, below a league average, which is 100. But I would, I'll give it a respectable, right? Respectable, but most of that damage was actually done in the first half when he hit 259 with seven home runs, 32 RBIs and had five stolen bases. The second half, the numbers dip big time because he was only held the 44 games.

Starting point is 00:02:48 The knee injury was a problem. He got shut down early because of it. It was an issue in the second half. So we don't know where Mason win. have gone. Maybe the numbers would have stayed going down. I don't know. I can't I can't predict that. But we know that his defensive prowess was huge. We know how big a deal it was. And we know that he was a pretty good offensive player, but was being as good as he is defensively. Remember back of the day, Ozzie Smith, my favorite cardinal of all time, was not much of a hitter for the early years of his career.

Starting point is 00:03:26 He didn't really become much of a hitter until the late 80s and early 90s. So for a while there, it was all glove, no real offense, speed. He had the stolen bases, but still, he was considered an elite shortstop, right? So would Mason win coming off a year like that, would that get him inside the top 10 shortsteps in baseball? I thought maybe it would. I was wrong because he's not there. MLB Network released their list of the top 10 short steps. and Mason Wynn is nowhere to be found on this list.

Starting point is 00:04:00 So let's go through the list here real quick of the guys that they deemed better than our friend Mason Wynn. Number one, Bobby Witt Jr. Number two, Corey Seeger, three, Francisco Lendor, number four, Gunner Henderson, number five, Mookie Betts, number six, Adiraldo Pardomo, number seven, Trey Turner, number eight, Jeremy Pena, number nine, Ellie Dela Cruz, and number 10, Zach Netto. Now, when you look at this list and you see,

Starting point is 00:04:25 see those names, you might agree with them. There are a lot of talented shortstops in the league right now. Bobby Witt, Jr., number four pretty season last year is up to number one. It's hard to argue with that. He's great at everything. He really is. Corey Seeger at number two, that seems like a little bit of a reach for me, only because he can't stay healthy.

Starting point is 00:04:46 It's not because he's not good. When he's on the field, easily one of the best short stops in baseball, the offense elite, and then the defense. while he was out there this year was elite as well. So hard to argue with him at number two. I would drop him a few tears, though, just because the injury risk. Like he hasn't played,

Starting point is 00:05:05 I think more than 125 games. He's only done it once, like in the last five years. So I would strike that as a negative. Francisco Lindor, switch hitting stud at number three, no arguments there. Gunner Henderson was number one last year, but had a rough year for his standards in 2025, but still had an OPS plus of 121. but shows you how good he really is.

Starting point is 00:05:27 But defensively, he committed eight errors and was a minus three DRS and minus three outs above average. Mookie Betz is a freak. He's just good at everything. It goes from being a gold glove right fielder. It's playing goal glove worthy shortstop at age 32. Who does that? It's weird.

Starting point is 00:05:42 It's crazy. Mookie Betz does it. He's a freak. Offensively, he slipped quite a bit dropping from a 143 OPS plus in 24 to 104 last year. Is this the beginning of the decline of Mookiee bets? or was it a one-off this year? We'll see. Perdomo is our first unranked guy from last year

Starting point is 00:06:00 who exploded onto the scene, going from three home runs and 37 RBIs in 2024 to 20 bombs, 100 rubies last year with a plus five outs above average plus 3 DRS. I remember a buddy of mine in our fantasy baseball league, and he was in, I think he was in a differently. It wasn't an out, maybe it was hourly. But he was asking me like, hey,

Starting point is 00:06:21 what do you think of Perdomo? Like, because somebody was, putting him in a package with a bunch of other guys. I think Paul Skeens was the other guy to try to get Otani from him. And I kind of scoffed at it. I was like, I don't know. He's kind of a defensive guy. And this was early on in the year. This was like May, maybe early June at the latest. And Perdomo took off. So, uh, sorry, Noah. Trey Turner is still a hell of an offensive thread, won that batting title in the L this year. I'll be it with a 304 batting average, which is, uh, kind of sad, right? Um, but,

Starting point is 00:06:54 but plus 16 outs above average. Feels like he should be higher than seventh, in my opinion. Jeremy Payne from Houston was also unranked last year, but had a great season. Defensively, he's fine. Offensively, though, big jump. Went from a 99 OPS plus to 132, cut down his strikeouts, took more walks, led to much better numbers all around.

Starting point is 00:07:16 The Reds, L.A. Cruz, ninth, perhaps the most gifted athlete in the league, but still figuring things out. He's still only 24 years old, which sucks for. us in the NL Central, played on a bum leg last year in the second half, but still managed 37 steals, 22 home runs, 86 RBIs. Defensively, though, he's not good. Minus three outs above average, minus five, DRS, let all shortstuffs with 26 errors. He's got to work on that. 10th, you had the Angel Zach Netto, who had a minus eight outs above average, but was plus 13 defensive runs saved, but he did hit 26 home runs, which was third most among all shortstops.

Starting point is 00:07:54 is not in the top 10, including Mason win. Willie Adomas, who slug 30 jacks for San Francisco, Danesby Swanson from the Cubs, who's got a couple of gold gloves on his mantle at home, also hit 24 home runs last year for Chicago. Not in there. Boba Shett, the prize free agent signing, who is now joining Francisco Lindor in New York did not make the cut because of his defense, I guess. Trevor Story had a really good year last year. Jacob Wilson with the A's, defensive issues probably on both of them. That's why they didn't make it. So looking at that list, should Mason Wynn have been inside the top 10? No. I think they got it right. We love Mason Wynne. I think he's fantastic. I think he and JJ Weatherholt at some point being the guys up the

Starting point is 00:08:48 middle are going to be phenomenal to watch for multiple years. But what I'm saying is I understand like looking at these guys why Mason didn't crack the top 10. And if he wants to be one of these guys, if he wants to be considered elite and in that top 10, he's going to have to step things up offensively in a major way. We're going to talk about where he needs to improve. What is it that he's got to get better at offensively to jump into that next tier of shortstop and be one of these top 10 guys? We'll talk about this coming up next on Lockdown Cardinals. Tax season doesn't have to take over your life.

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Starting point is 00:11:02 locked on Cardinals and all your favorite locked on shows with no interruptions. Members only Discord access all for just five bucks a month or $50 a year. If you're a big fan of the Lockdown podcast network and you jump all over like I do where I go to Lockdown Blues. I'm at Lockdown Packers. I'm at Locked on him. I'm all over the place. It pays off. Five bucks a month. That's it. Go to LockdownstL Cardinals. Supercast.com or he can check the link. in the show notes to learn more about this. Back to Mason win. I have a hard time believing that Mason win,

Starting point is 00:11:35 when you talk about him offensively, that he's ever going to be a consistent 20 home run guy. It's not that I don't think he can get there if he wants to. And it's not that I don't think he can consistently get to around 15 because I do. I think that's certainly in the realm of possibilities. But the thing is, I don't want him trying to hit home runs and sacrificing what I think is the most important thing about him offensively. and that's just his ability to get on base in the first place.

Starting point is 00:12:00 I don't need him sacrificing that just to get a couple more over the wall at some point in the season. I think he can help this team in this lineup a whole lot more if he doesn't hit a whole lot of home runs and just concentrates, line drives, base hits, getting on base. I want more contact. I need less strikeouts. I need more walks out of base and win as well. be that on-base guy who, yeah, can take you deep if you screw up and leave one over the play. But not a guy who's trying to go deep so often that he's whiffing all the time. That I do not need out of Mason when.

Starting point is 00:12:38 Batting average on balls in play when he put the bat on the ball, put it in play. 301 batting average, right behind Perdomo's 304 average. I like that. Mason wins walk percentage, 6.3%, which was 20th, which is smack dab in between. between Bichette and Netto. Netto made it in the top 10. Bichette did not. But he's got to improve on that too. That's another thing.

Starting point is 00:13:01 I need, I need more patience. I need him to take more pitches, especially if he's going to be at the top of the order, which is I think where he'll probably be. That's what I need. K percentage, 10th highest among all short steps. No, it's got to be better than that. It's got to be better than that.

Starting point is 00:13:21 Basically, here's what I need him to do. I need him to cut down those strikeouts. I need him to be more like Jeremy Pena. The way he was for Houston, who bumped his on-base percentage up by 55 points this year. From where he was in 24 to what he got to in 25, 55 points on base percentage. Batting average jumped from 266 to 304. And he still hit 17 jacks.

Starting point is 00:13:50 Drove in 62, added 20 stolen bases. The home runs, I don't have Jeremy Payne's spray chart in front of me. Maybe, you know, he takes advantage of the Crawford boxes in left field in Houston. Certainly something the Cardinals do not have. It's not a home run-friendly ballpark that they play in. So that's going to make things more difficult for Mason when to get to that point all the time. But driving in 62, he definitely could do that, 20 still on bases. I think all three of these are really achievable for Mason.

Starting point is 00:14:21 not sure where Ali envisions him in the lineup card, but Pena did most of his damage batting first for the Astros. And the Cardinals don't really have a legitimate leadoff guy unless they expect Victor Scott to morph into that guy. I think that's the idea. They would love to see him at the top of the order and getting on base a whole lot more. In a perfect world when things are going great,

Starting point is 00:14:44 I would love to see Victor Scott batting first, Mason winning second, Alex Burlinson, batting third, Yvonne Herrera batting. fourth and so forth down the list we go. I think that's that that would be ideal. But these guys have to prove that they can pull it off at the top of the lineup. Victor Scott being the one that really needs to. Mason went.

Starting point is 00:15:06 I could see him being number one, your lead off hitter on opening day. I could totally see that. But that's what I really want and need from Mason. If he's going to be considered one of the top 10 best short stops in baseball, and I think he can get there. That's what I think. he's got to do. He's got to be more like Jeremy Payne was for Houston. So leave your thoughts on this below. Should he be in the top 10 already? Because on the fan vote, he was number nine. So that doesn't

Starting point is 00:15:33 always work. We see how fan voting works in the All-Star Games and stuff. So maybe Mason's a good looking dude and he's a good guy and people voted for him from St. Louis. Maybe that's what happened. But did not crack their top 10 fan vote. He was in the top 10 at number nine. But do you think he should maybe they're already just based on how good he was defensively. What numbers do you think are achievable for Mason? When? Do you think he can reach the Pena type numbers that I'm talking about? Or is that too much of a reach? Am I asking too much?

Starting point is 00:16:01 Leave your thoughts below. Moving on to the farm system, which, you know, and this rebuild is getting a lot of positive attention right now for national media members, which I think is great. That's awesome to hear considering this reboot. You know, it's really only a little over a year old. you go back to when they sold off at the trade deadline in 24. Drafting J.J. Weatherholt seemed like to be the starting point of things where like,

Starting point is 00:16:27 all right, this is where we really got to start churning and burning and doing some good things. Keith Law released his farm system rankings at The Athletic.com and had the Cardinals coming in at number 11 overall, which, you know, it's a little bit lower than most places rank them. He broke these down into different tiers. Tier one, he had the Brewers, Dodgers and Mariners. people love the brewers right now as far as their farm system tier two you got the pirates guardians and nationals you're noticing there in that grouping well at least nationals are pirates a lot of losing uh in recent years so they they should be getting up there because they've had a lot of higher

Starting point is 00:17:01 traffics than some of these other teams um next year it was the tigers white socks oriel's boston and st louis kind of fitting that he put boston and st louis right next to each other since they have so much in common and they're like bfps and maybe they're going to make a third trade with Brennan Donovan, which is a possibility. So we're keeping our eye out for that one. But here's what he had to say about the Cardinals in general. So as the Cardinals brought in an all new player development leadership group, and they saw immediate results with a large number of their prospects,

Starting point is 00:17:32 including Joshua Baez and Toccoir Robi, the latter of whom, unfortunately, needed Tommy John surgery, just as he was on the cusp of the majors. Yes, I know that stings. But he says they have the best catching depth of any team in baseball, and they've already shown they can help hitters and pitchers make real mechanical and stuff changes. There were some setbacks, including injuries to Roby, Quinn Matthews, and Cooper Jerpy. But on the whole, it was a very positive year and a great sign for the future of this system. Now, Keith also has just three of their prospects in his top 100.

Starting point is 00:18:05 Most areas have got five guys from the Cardinals inside the top 100. Keith's only got three. J.G. Weatherholt comes in at number seven overall, which, again, again, is a little bit lower than some places actually have JJ going into the year. But then he's got Liam Doyle all the way up to 26. And right now Rodriguez at number 29. So both of them are actually higher than a lot of the other places. Now, the ones that he left out of the top 100 that are usually in our outfielder Joshua

Starting point is 00:18:35 Baez and then catcher Leonardo Bernal. For JJ, though, he did say he's not going to play shortstop, definitely not with Mason when in front of them. but he has the hands and instincts to play second or third and will stay on the dirt. Again, we're not sure where they're going to put him yet, whether it'll be second base, whether it'll be third base. We'd love to find him a home and make that his. Nolan Gorman's going to get a crack at third base, obviously.

Starting point is 00:18:58 Second base, you still got Brandon Donovan there, but these are guys that can be moved around. There are different ways to make this work. I still think JJ's going to be a second baseman, but we'll see. Weatherhole, he says, doesn't have huge raw power, much close. to average than plus, but he squares the ball up very consistently. And his hard hit, which is 49% and barrel at 12.6% rates were well above the median in AAA. So he might end up with more in-game power in the end. The thing that I'm impressed with when I watch JJ hit is his ability to drive the ball

Starting point is 00:19:34 to the opposite field. And you saw that. Remember he hit the home run in spring last year? We saw that quite a few times in the minor leagues this year. Like he's got power to all fields. And the dude is built like a tank, man. He takes great care of himself. So I think the pop's going to stay. Law continues saying, I wouldn't want to change anything about his approach as he benefits by using the whole field and is very selective until he two strikes when he expands the zone more than a hitter with his hard contact profile should. He is the National League prospect about who might feel most confident saying that he'll win a batting average title someday. So more gushing over JJ Weatherholt, which is never a bad thing. We'll take it.

Starting point is 00:20:15 But as I mentioned before, most Cardles fans, they're in that mode. We're like, this is great. Great to hear all these cool things about our prospects. But we've been down this path before. We need to start seeing it in real games to believe it. And when I say real games, not minor league games. They want to see it in the big league. So see it with their own eyes. They're like, hey, this kid's as good as they say you. So spring training will be a fun glimpse where J.J. will certainly get more playing time with the main roster than he did last year when, you know, he had a cup of coffee with the big league club in spring training. So that'll be fun.

Starting point is 00:20:51 So looking forward to that in a couple of weeks. But Keith also had some great things to say about Liam Doyle and right now Rodriguez. So I'm going to share his thoughts with you coming up next on Lockdown Cardinals. Thanks again for making Lockton Cardinals, your first listen of the day. Thank you for making Lockdown, the number one sports podcast. network. We're celebrating 10 years with locked on here very soon. So we're going to be doing so apparently something specials lined up. I don't know all the details yet, but I'll keep you posted. Continuing on with Keith lost thoughts on the Cardinals top three prospects, just heard about J.J.

Starting point is 00:21:31 Weatherhole. Let's get into left-hander Liam Doyle, who I know we're very excited about as well. And here's what he had to say about Doyle. Number five pick in the 25 draft out of Tennessee had the best fastball in the class sitting at 96-99 all spring, living up at the top of the zone with the pitch missing bats over 40% of the time that hitters tried to offer at it. He has four pitches with a plus splitter, an average to above average slider, and a potentially plus cutter. He throws everything for strikes working well to both sides of the plate and getting some added deception from his delivery. Some teams were concerned about his ability to repeat his delivery as a starter, which I didn't share. And the mixed issue I could see

Starting point is 00:22:11 about his ability to stay a starter is that he throws so hard all the time, several miles an hour above where he was the year before when he was at Mississippi. He moves well on the mound and should be able to make some small adjustments to try to tighten up the slider and separate it more from the cutter, beyond which I don't think he has much left to do before he would be ready to pitch in some role in the major leagues. He'll probably start in AA, but don't be surprised if he debuts this year as long as he stays healthy with at least number two starter upside. Okay. All right. We like to hear that. Big fan, apparently, of Liam Doyle. There's been a discussion on X today in my comments about whether or not Doyle will be up on the team at all this year or not. I understand not starting the clock if you don't need to. But these guys got to progress at their own rate. So we'll see what happens. I would be surprised if Doyle made it up before September. And if it's that late and the cartels are out of it anyway,

Starting point is 00:23:17 is it really worth it? We'll see. We'll see. We're way far down the line before we got to get and worry about those things. But I would imagine he'll start at AA this year because that's where he ended last season and get a couple of months under his belt there before anything happens. And of course, you still got to move pieces from Memphis either up to the big leagues or somewhere else if you're going to bring Doyle up. And they've got a full boat of pitching prospects at Memphis this year as well, which is a good problem to have. Last one, catcher right now, Rodriguez. Keith Law from the athletic, his thoughts on the youngster. Rodriguez, offense first catcher who does project to stay behind the plate, although he'll need time back there.

Starting point is 00:23:59 That said, there's always a chance as bad as so advanced that the Cardals move him to another position to get him to the big league sooner. He hits the ball extremely hard, already topping 111 miles per hour with an EV 50 of 91.3 in the Florida State League and pairs that with strong contact skills and field. for the strike zone. He does a strength and bat speed with a swing that's short to the ball with a big finish, pulling the ball in the air at a high rate already, even though he does have power the other way. Again, if you have not seen clips of Rodriguez swinging the bat, go look them up. It's pretty nice to watch. I mean, the nickname, the Hulk, you'll see exactly why he got that nickname when you watch his swing and there's just the power. Like some of them, you're just like, wow. Anyway, more from law. He's going to need work behind the play, but he's got hands and athleticism to stick there,

Starting point is 00:24:53 and his Brickhouse build suits the position. Well, if he stays a catcher, he's an all-star. And if he doesn't, he might still be one because he's going to have so much impact with the bat. He'll be 19 all of this year. And if he plays a full season, I think he'll lead all minor league catchers in home runs. Again, all good things, things that you want to hear about your top prospects. So I love it. The hype on Rodriguez continues to summer,

Starting point is 00:25:21 but we got to remember he's still a teenager, 19 years old. What were you doing at 19? Were you delivering pizzas like us? Probably. So as much as it sucks, we're going to have to monitor his development at Peoria in Springfield this year instead of St. Louis. And that's just part of the process here.

Starting point is 00:25:38 You just can't rush all these people up to the major leagues and expect them to succeed and just be wonderful you've seen the damage you can do when guys get rushed up. It's not always pretty. So all in due time, all in due time. Still got Herrera, Paez, Crooks, Bernal ahead of him. So there's no rush whatsoever at all. But I am curious.

Starting point is 00:26:02 This is something I thought of of the two prospects, Joshua Baez and Rodriguez, which are you more excited about? Let me know in the comments section below, because there's so much to like. You know, Baez had this massive breakout season last year. Rodriguez playing pro ball for the first time in the Cardinals organization this year. But the bias, like just the speed, the power.

Starting point is 00:26:31 It all came together finally last year where, you know, he's got like a rocket up his ass right now. People wanting him to be in major leagues this year could happen. Hasn't played above AA yet. But if he scorches everything at Memphis, maybe, maybe. One final order of business here. The Cardinals have announced their full lineup of theme, culture, and community ticket dates for the 26th season.

Starting point is 00:26:55 On sale now at Cardinals.com slash theme. They got over 20 different events scheduled for this season. You've got the new backyard baseball night, Grateful Dead nights coming back, Black Heritage Day, Fiesta Cardinalis. They've got a Peanuts night. They've got a Marvel night. Cancer Awareness, Military Appreciation. There's a Barbie game. I remember seeing that.

Starting point is 00:27:17 There's a lot, obviously. My favorite ones are the ones that they incorporate with the blues. They are doing another blues night in September where they got this cool blues fleece pull over that they'll give away. Big win for the blues last night. Congratulations. Over Florida. That was certainly a fun game to watch.

Starting point is 00:27:33 The blues have been in a lot of fun games this year. They just usually end up losing them at the end instead of winning. So it was nice to get the W. So anyway, keep those theme nights in mind. if you're interested, available now. All right, thanks for making Lockedown Cardinals. Your first listen every day. If you haven't already, hook me up.

Starting point is 00:27:50 Give us a follow on X at L.O underscore Cardinals at JD Sports Radio, TikTok, Instagram and Locked on Cardinals. Obviously, we're on YouTube. Help our channel and love for the Cardinals grow. If you never miss an episode, the Everydayer Club, I encourage you to jump in. It's built for you. You're going to get Locked on Cardinals, add free,

Starting point is 00:28:04 plus members only Discord access and more. Add to Lockedon, STL, Cardinals. com to join the club. Video guys, we're sitting you over to the 24, 24-7 National Lockdown Podcast Network YouTube channel. On the audio side of things, to make sure that your second listen is our guy Sully over there at Lockdown MLB. You guys are the best fans in baseball for a reason.

Starting point is 00:28:26 Enjoy the weekend. Stay warm. It feels like 9 degrees out. A freezing.

Locked On Cardinals - Daily Podcast On The St. Louis Cardinals - St. Louis Cardinals’ Masyn Winn Out of Top 10 Shortstops—Is It JUSTIFIED?

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