Locked On Colts - Daily Podcast On The Indianapolis Colts - Indianapolis Colts: Behind the Scenes Look At the Pre-Draft Process.

Starting point is 00:00:00 Today, we're going to give you guys an in-depth look at the other side of the NFL draft process. Let's get to it. You are Locked On Colts, your daily Indianapolis Colts podcast. Part of the Locked On Podcast your first list of the day. This is your daily podcast covering your Indianapolis Colts, part of the Locked On Podcast Network, your team every day. Now, we are throwing a little bit of a curveball in today's episode. Obviously, I'm Zach Hicks, as always, your co-host of this episode of this show.

Starting point is 00:00:52 Jake Arthur is down in Tennessee at the Tennessee Pro Day watching Hendon Hooker, Hyatt, and all those other guys. And we wanted to kind of, you know, pull it back a little bit. My good friend Nathan Shackelford here, he's an agent with Higher Calling Sports, and we kind of want to talk about part of the draft process. Now, you guys know that we talk about it from the front office standpoint, from the Colts standpoint a lot, how you go through the draft process, what the Colts are looking for, and stuff like that. But one thing I think the average fan doesn't really understand is how just hectic and how much of the process is like based on measurables profiles all that kind of stuff here so Nathan here is going to give us a little bit of of shine here into some of the draft process from the agency and the player side and if you guys

Starting point is 00:01:37 don't know one one player that he does rep is Trevor Denbo Colts guy who made the 53 man roster last year did get a couple run a couple games up on the roster last year too. So he'll be able to give us a little bit of insight there. So Nathan, before we get into this conversation, man, how's this process going for you and how hectic has it been so far? Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for having me. You'll see the Texas Rangers logo on my chest. It's opening day. Rangers should be decent this year. I'm excited for that. It's been good. I'd say the busiest time for an agent and players is just between January and April.

Starting point is 00:02:21 It's a busy time. I had my last pro day today. I've got a TCU that should be going right now. After that, it's the period that I call hurry up and wait, which is you just sit around for a month and let teams make all their reviews and processes and all that, and they come back to you. We're about to get to that waiting period where we'll figure out a little more as it comes. Yeah, for sure. We're in that a little bit right now that we call it the lull in the off season like the lull in the busy season is what we're in right now uh so getting to the process here you know we won't go too much into detail on how you recruit guys and all that stuff i know it's kind of changed a little bit over the years and stuff like that but you know you recruit your guys you get your guys

Starting point is 00:03:01 signed on how is your what's your conversation like before the like the hula bowls and the CGS all-star game? And like, how do you kind of determine where these guys are going? Is it based off of what teams are telling you or kind of how's that whole process work at the beginning? Yeah. So what I tell the guys is that it's a three, it's a three-step process really. Your first step is your film, whatever you put it on college. At the end of

Starting point is 00:03:26 the day, scouts are always going to go back to your film. So if you had a really good tape, that's going to count for something. It's not like it's just going to get thrown in the trash. Your second part is your all-star game. So like you're saying, Hula, Gridiron, NFLPA, East West, Senior, that's going to compose a big part of the grade. And then the last component of the grade is pro days. To give you an example, there can be guys that are really under the radar that had really good film, maybe at a smaller school,

Starting point is 00:04:00 that then blow up one of the other two or both of those last two components and go from being someone that no one knows about to being a guy that everyone wants. So my example for that this year would be Levi Bell. Levi Bell was one of the top guys ranked on. I think he was, for a long time this season, he was the number one ranked PFF defensive lineman in the country.

Starting point is 00:04:23 No one knew about him. Goes into his all-star game at gridiron switch he's going to switch to fullback upon recommendations of scouts every single rep when he was in fullback either guy was on the ground or 10 yards off the line of scrimmage yeah and every team that was there including the colts came up to me and said, where the heck has this guy been? And then he goes to his pro day, and at 260 pounds, he does 33 reps on the bench press, 37.5-inch vert, and then runs a 4.58. And so suddenly you have a guy that goes from who is this guy to now teams are talking about he gets drafted. Yeah. That's crazy explosive for a

Starting point is 00:05:06 fullback so um just shows you the process is so multi-faceted and each part of it really matters and um each part of it's really important to take seriously yeah yeah for sure so getting these guys to those those all-star games though is that something where you as an agent you know you're evaluating say you have an offer from hula and cgs for you as an agent you know you're a value say you have an offer from hula and cgs for the same guy you're like you're just evaluating where to send your guy best or is there something where scouts are saying like hey we'd rather see you at this bowl like how do you determine where to send your boys uh when you get those invites yeah there's typically a pretty pretty regular pecking order um which is going to be senior followed by

Starting point is 00:05:45 this one can get dicey, either Shrine or NFL PA. I think Shrine this year is over. It was over PA. And then Hula has actually jumped Gridiron. Gridiron used to be above Hula, but Hula has leaped Gridiron.

Starting point is 00:06:02 Gridiron and then Tropical and then everything else you have from there. So we had a guy that was at Gridiron. He got an invite for Hula, and I said, hey, you just got to take Hula. We had a guy that got an NFL PA, and, you know, that was his highest one. So we said, hey, let's just stick with PA. So it's kind of just on really what they get invited to. Agents can try to get guys into those, but really, especially your top three games, they kind of pick on really what they get invited to um agents can try to get guys into those but really

Starting point is 00:06:26 especially your top three games they kind of pick who they want um some of those games like gridiron hula you might be able to say hey let's try to get this guy in and you might be able to pull some things but uh those bigger games are just taking who they want yeah um yeah yeah yeah for sure and so say you got your guy has great film like you said like levi is a great example you know great film you go to cgs has a good good cgs there now we're getting to the pro day process and i know you know obviously it's not the end of the world when these guys don't get that combine invite they're doing their pro days surely people sitting at home always say ah pro day numbers are inflated and stuff like that we can't think of them too much too serious but how big are these like pro day numbers when it comes to teams

Starting point is 00:07:08 evaluating these players yeah the funny thing is i'd actually say it's flipped i'd say combine numbers are inflated um especially the ones that you get um because they're going off of laser a lot of times and laser is about a tenth of a second um about a tenth of a second faster than hand is what we found traditionally. So my guys train on laser, and then we tell them at Pro Day, expect a.1 on everything you do. And we found it to be pretty accurate. So generally the Pro Day numbers you're seeing, those are what scouts are just doing on their hand. And even at Combine, when you see those numbers, a lot of times scouts aren't taking those numbers. They're taking their hand numbers because they don't trust lasers.

Starting point is 00:07:50 They just trust their hand. But, yeah, it's a huge part of the process because really you have – I mean, it's going to sound really at the point of sounding extremely obvious. There's three things that can happen to you at a pro day. You can go up. You can go down. you can stay the same um and so if you were a guy uh that someone liked going into their pro day um and you have an average day and you stay the same you're still in that same spot you go and you have a better day maybe you move up a little bit on

Starting point is 00:08:20 their pecking order or if you're on a friend if you're a fringe guy if you're especially if you're on that fringe of mini camp or low low free agent signing i mean if you go and you have a bad pro you can fall off the board completely yeah yeah it's it's big um it shouldn't it shouldn't be as important i think um i think with the evolution of game speed um especially the technology we have there there's no reason we shouldn't just be of game speed, especially the technology we have there. There's no reason we shouldn't just be measuring game speed instead of 40. Training guys for a 40 that they're never – unless you're a receiver running a go or you're on kickoff, you're never going to run straight down 40 yards. There's a lot better ways to measure game speed in my opinion,

Starting point is 00:09:00 but that's still how scouts kind of look at things. It can's important. It's very rare that it's going to take a guy that was completely off the board to being a drafted guy. You kind of have to, you kind of can move up a little bit in ranks or go down a little bit in ranks, but it's not like if you were a first round draft pick and you have an awful pro day, suddenly you're a mini camp guy or, you know,

Starting point is 00:09:21 a mini camp guy and you have an amazing day, you're a third round pick. That's not how it works. It can move up and down a little bit um but it can be the difference of thousands of dollars for the guys yeah for sure and the last thing i'll ask you before we jump to our next segment we'll talk more about the draft eggs itself and and all those things like mini camps and all that is you know i i've heard in the past you know this is a story that i heard about a scout is a scout really liked a player, and he told the player, you have to hit this minimum vertical jump for our team to draft you. You have to hit this or we will not draft you. If you do hit this, though, we will draft you.

Starting point is 00:09:54 It was something like that. I won't say too much about the scout involved, but it's someone who works with the Colts now, so there's a little tie back to the Colts. How common is that kind of in this practice where you have scouts or you have NFS people, whoever, with teams saying like, hey, we like your guy a lot, but you've got to get him to this number for us to take him.

Starting point is 00:10:15 Yeah, I'd say, I mean, it's generally going to be saying a specific hard line number is going to be tough. I mean, if you say you have to run a four, five, eight, yeah, it's generally not going to be that showing me something like, Hey, if he's in the four fives, he's great. Or Hey, he's jumping around 34 around 36. So they'll give you some benchmarks. Um, but like it's, it's not going to be a set. Okay. I need you to bench 30.

Starting point is 00:10:43 I need you to hit 32 on bench. And that's the difference maker. Um, it's going to be a set. Okay. I need you to bench 30. I need you to hit 32 on bench. And that's the difference maker. It's going to be a range and depends on what scouts are kind of looking for. People are looking for it because a lot of times scouts go in with kind of favorites of who they like and the pro day lets them pitch those guys harder. So there was a guy, one, there was a guy that the Colts really liked in mind. He didn't have quite have the pro day he wanted. So now it's going to be harder for, for that,

Starting point is 00:11:08 for that scout to go to his guy and say, Hey, we need to sign this guy because he didn't have the pro day that he was wanting him to have. So pro days can be leveraged for scouts to go to their higher ups and say, Hey, he hit this number. So let's get them in. So a lot of times when they're saying that they're saying that's that's the ammunition i need to be able to make this pitch um because there's a lot of stuff in the background you don't see going on definitely definitely so coming up we're going to talk about

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Starting point is 00:12:22 You can vote every day in in march so hop in and support your pick all right nathan so before we get right into like what is draft day itself uh you when we were actually talking about doing this episode beforehand you were saying that the way that teams grade players isn't so much like how we do it in the media you know we'll in the media we'll slap on first round grade slap on second round grade slap on high the media, you know, we'll in the media, we'll slap on first round grade, slap on second round grade, slap on high second, high third, you know, all that stuff. But for you, from your experience, it's mostly more like draftable pro, like, you know, priority free agent, mini camp guy.

Starting point is 00:12:56 Like how do they kind of separate on their boards from your understanding? Yeah. I mean, it can go as broad as you want or as deep as you want. So there's from a broad perspective, for guys draftable, for kind of the broadest terms, you're going to say frontboard draftable, backboard draftable, and then free agent and minicamp. I mean, those are kind of going to be your biggest terms. But really how it gets broken down is you kind of have grades. Your first, second round guys, first three rounds, I mean,

Starting point is 00:13:26 decently set in stone. I mean, if you have a first, second, third round grade, where it gets dicey is kind of fifth round and on. You'll kind of hear different terms there of what that means. And a lot of times with draft grades, once you start getting to that fourth, fifth round, especially if it's fifth to seventh, you might as well take that as a 50-50 shot

Starting point is 00:13:49 the guy gets drafted. When you hear that, it's not, oh, he's going in the fifth. It's, oh, I like him enough that I can justify drafting him in the fifth, but that doesn't mean I need to draft him at all. You're going to have these different things where what I tell my guys is if a team

Starting point is 00:14:05 says to me hey we have a so for example i was talking to a team they said we have a seventh the pfa on them and what i tell a guy is that means that most likely you're not getting drafted but when they go to their team and say hey we should take this guy the argument is going to be well we had a draftable grade on him so that so let's just sign him now so when they're putting that seventh the pfa on you or that fifth the seventh a lot of times they're using that as leverage to be able to go back in and say hey we had a draft grade on this guy we just weren't able to draft him so now we're going to take him so generally when you hear those late round i mean your first three rounds i mean those are pretty set um maybe in order where they go or how they're

Starting point is 00:14:43 fighting for what spot. I mean, maybe that changes. But from that lower level, from day three on, it gets pretty dicey. And it can be the difference of, you know, a team has a fifth-round grade on your guy, and it gets to the sixth round, and they go, oh, we had a fourth-round grade on this guy at the same position. Now we don't need your guy anymore.

Starting point is 00:15:08 So then that kind of falls to the back end of the draft where you have guys that are considered kind of the categories from there are PFA priority, free agent, free agent, which is kind of your low level signing guys and many camp guys. Generally what I consider, you'll hear the term PFA thrown out a ton. And I think it really, really what it means it it's used to broadly. I think it kind of almost a lot of people use it as just anyone that signed after the draft really to me, when you're talking PFA, you're saying this is a team that at least three, four,

Starting point is 00:15:37 five teams really want. And there's a bidding war that's going on. Right. So we started off at 2000 and we're signing for 10,000. Generally a PFA is going to be signing for at least 5 000 if not 10 signing bonus and so it's it's something where you have a lot of competition so a guy like levi if levi's not drafted levi will be a priority free agent where we'll have teams lining up to call we'll go through it that way then you kind of have these guys that are you know know, regular free agents, which is, Hey, we've got a little, we've got a thousand dollars left. We've got $2,000. Can we get your guy in the door?

Starting point is 00:16:13 At least have a contract going in. And then you've got your mini camp guys who are literally just hoping that they, I mean, hoping they can impress someone and get a contract. I mean, it's, it's an uphill battle, but at least they get a shot. Yeah. So last year, let's, let's, let's look a little bit at Trevor Denbos from last year. You know, this is a guy last season, I'm sure on draft day, there was a chance that he could have got drafted, you know, cause he had a great off season, great pro day numbers. I mean, his pro day numbers were outstanding. I was looking at them the other day. It was like four, four flat, like 38 inch vertical, like real good numbers. He did the special teams in in college he did some punting in college too like he did it all in college there so this was a guy where there was

Starting point is 00:16:49 a chance he could get drafted there on day three what was it like for you like the turn of round four into round five you know you have a guy like Trevor Denbo who could get drafted but teams are already calling with the UDFA on or the PFA offers and stuff like that walk us through that that process right there when you get into round five and you have a guy like Trevor Denbo. Yeah, I'd say, you know, Denbo is going to be one of those PFA categories where we had a really good pro day. We knew teams were going to be calling.

Starting point is 00:17:17 The Colts were actually one of the first ones to start calling because they, they didn't, they straight up said, Hey, look, we're just, we're just not going to, we just don't. I mean, I think really that they knew they didn't have to draft them because they they didn't they straight up said hey look we're just we're just not gonna we just don't i mean i think really that they knew they didn't have to draft them because they weren't worried anyone else was going to draft them um which somehow is how pfa has become draft fixes 10 teams are negotiating and they go forget this i'm not i'm not going to a twenty thousand dollar signing bonus i'm just going to draft you exactly exactly they just pulled the cord so um but i think for the colts they knew that he wasn't there wasn't a team that was really going to draft

Starting point is 00:17:50 him like that and so really towards that end of the draft is when we start communicating of hey if he's not drafted you know we want him here what does that look like the first number is always laughably low um you know like it I mean, you're just like, I'm not even getting, I mean, that does nothing for me. And then you just kind of, I mean, there's different strategies to do, but I just like to field offers, take my time, let things happen. And then as teams get more nervous, they'll call you back and they'll almost bet against themselves and just keep

Starting point is 00:18:22 upping the price because they, they start getting worried. This actually happened. One of the really good example is a few years ago when I had a kicker, Chris Nagar, we had a four team bidding battle that started the Colts were one of them. And I remember the Colts, like everyone, everyone was calling from the Colts from the,

Starting point is 00:18:43 you know, from the scout to the special teams coordinator to the GM saying like, we want to get him here. We want to do it. But, you know, he had a man up in his mind. He wanted to go to the Jets. That's just where he felt like the best opportunity was. But, you know, you just see different people calling.

Starting point is 00:19:02 And it depends kind of how much leverage a guy has on who needs to call, who needs to be involved in that. And then the bid just kind of starts going up for a guy like that, for a guy that has some interest. And for us with Trevor, though, I mean, from pretty early on in the process, we knew that Trevor's ideal spot was the Colts. And so we wanted to get him a fair deal, but just get him in there.

Starting point is 00:19:28 We didn't want to play too many games where we really made the Colts angry or did something and then worried about it. So we just wanted to get him a good deal and then get him where he wanted to go. So that's kind of what we did with Trevor. Yeah. Yeah. So shifting to Levi, you know, this is your, one of your top guys this year. He's a fullback, obviously. It's not a guy who is going to go round two or three or anything like that.

Starting point is 00:19:51 But it is a guy that some teams have that draftable grade on and stuff. Like, when do you expect that bidding war to start with you for a guy like Levi? Does it start, like, round five, round six? Or when do you think that's going to start with him? I mean, it will depend on how many teams are interested in how teams do things there are some teams that will start almost kind of throwing offers on day two i mean just kind of put something out there um real intense bidding though generally starts for a guy like that probably around the fifth um fifth sixth um and then it wouldn't surprise me if we had a deal done before,

Starting point is 00:20:25 before the draft was done. Just having that locked up and that way, any team calls to say we want them, we say, well, we've got a deal in place. We're ready to go. If you want them, I mean, you can draft them, but yeah. So that's, I mean, I'd expect, I mean, fourth is pretty early generally around fifth sixth

Starting point is 00:20:46 kind of when stuff picks up yeah fourth round is when it's like that back end of the draft board typically i know that for for instance in the past you know guys like grover stewart carrie willis for the colts is they moved up to draft those guys in the fourth but five six seven it's like early undrafted free agency you know it's kind of what i always say to people is that's when you're taking your chances. You're going to give these guys a lot more than you give an undrafted free agent. So you have to be sure that you want to take them there. But these can be guys that you have the PFA grades on,

Starting point is 00:21:15 that you're taking around five or six because you heard, just throughout a Colts player like Isaiah Rogers, for instance, that took a couple years ago, big special teams guy. You could have heard that he's getting offers in the 100 000 or 200 000 or something like something crazy so you're like well that's what it takes to draft him let's just draft him now you know so that's kind of how that day three goes from everything i've heard from from other agents and from you yeah it's um really you're looking for traits in those last few rounds you're looking for developmental um what i tell my guys is hey if

Starting point is 00:21:46 you're if you're fifth on your your mindset should be i'm not coming in as a safety i'm coming in as a special teamer yes can play safety i mean i think honestly this year i think whichever i think that's going to flip a little bit um with safety depth um but uh and when you come in the door your first year you're not you're not going to most likely see the field for your position you're going to see it for special teams they're looking for traits of guys who can

Starting point is 00:22:13 why does it matter how fast the guy's 40 was that we're drafting in the 7th round we're going to put him on team so how fast can he get down field, how fast can he get down on coverage you'll see a lot of teams take guys that have some freak out, like they did something crazy in testing. They have really long arms. Some kind of trait that they really feel like is going to be hard to find in that priority free agency or free agency period with some traits that make that guy a little bit different

Starting point is 00:22:41 of a category than your typical PFAs would be. Yeah, last thing I'll ask you here here and then we'll close it out here. And it kind of just reiterates what you just said there is, you know, whenever we see people doing these mock drafts and stuff and these, all these kinds of mock seasons and all that people are like, Oh, why did they take another running back there in round six or round seven? Or why are they taking a wide receiver? They already have like six on the roster. Why are they taking them? But from everything you just said, right. It's, it's all about special teams when you get to day three, right? That is the most important thing.

Starting point is 00:23:08 Trevor is a great example, but I'm sure a lot of guys you've worked with, like it is all special teams on day three. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, day three is a big, I mean, anyone, I mean, really the only position you won't see on special teams running down is going to be offensive linemen. I mean, even some defensive linemen you'll have if they can run fast enough.

Starting point is 00:23:27 I mean, and quarterback, obviously. But Colts use running backs in special teams. Linebackers, pretty heavy. DBs, receivers. So really just about anyone can be a team's guy. So when you're in those last rounds, you're looking for guys that can help you a little bit there because you don't want your starters in on special teams. You generally want other guys. And so you're just kind of taking cheap labor and throwing them out there. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:23:53 So just kind of taking what you can get. But, I mean, those guys don't have a lot. If you're a 6th, 7th round pick, you don't have a ton of security. A good PFA comes in and does really well. And, I mean, 6th, 7th doesn't mean you're locked to make the team. on pick you don't have a ton of security a good pfa comes in and does really well and i mean six seven doesn't mean you're locked to make the team uh if you're a pfa or a free agent i mean you're kind of this equal playing field you still have a contract coming in the door so if you surprise people i mean you're not going to suddenly you know we knew trevor wasn't going to go in and

Starting point is 00:24:17 suddenly you know beat out a nick cross from day one you know um when. When you draft a guy that high, you're gusting him pretty intentionally. With other free agents, you're on equal footing and you have the chance to make that spot if you can carve out a role, especially on special teams. We saw last year with the Colts, they took a guy in Curtis Brooks in round 5 or round 6 and he ended up not making the roster. Guys who did make the roster, Trevor Denbo made the initial 53 Dallas flowers, undrafted free agent made the initial 53 all about those special teams.

Starting point is 00:24:52 And those were two special teams guys that were, that were stars from day one and they were able to get in there. So last thing I'll ask you, and then we'll, we'll close it out here. I promise this is actually the last one. Who are we watching of your guys here for the Colts, though? Just throw out some names. You don't have to say how much the Colts like them. Just give the people some names here about who to watch.

Starting point is 00:25:14 I love Levi. Levi's not a fit probably in any because he was a fullback, really. Yeah. So, I mean, you could play him at D-line. I just don't know. I've got a couple of line – I've got a D tackle at TCU there, Terrell Cooper. I've got an outside linebacker, edge hybrid, Nelson Vanasor from Texas Tech. Texas Tech transferred to Texas State.

Starting point is 00:25:42 Texas State. Those two guys. And then we talked about lemmy before lemmy young um so those are kind of the guys that i think are kind of around they're somewhere yeah yeah we'll keep an eye on them just this wink hint wink wink there so i appreciate you jumping on today nathan and talking about the the whole draft process because again i do think there are some misconceptions about how the process plays out, the importance of pro days, the importance of day three, and what day three guys

Starting point is 00:26:12 are. So I appreciate you illuminating that for us, and make sure you guys are following him there on social media, at Shaq19. His agency is also Higher Calling Sports. You guys can find all their stuff there on social medias. And then for us, make sure you're following at LockedOnColts, at JakeArthurNFL, and at ZachHicks2 on

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Locked On Colts - Daily Podcast On The Indianapolis Colts - Indianapolis Colts: Behind the Scenes Look At the Pre-Draft Process.

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