Locked On Colts - Daily Podcast On The Indianapolis Colts - Indianapolis Colts DC Candidates Dennis Allen, Steve Wilks Offer Fast, Pressure-Filled Defenses

Starting point is 00:00:00 The list of Indianapolis Colts defensive coordinator candidates is getting longer, and we've begun talking to people who are experts on these guys. Today, we talk about two who have got a long track record of success. Let's get to it. You are Locked On Colts, your daily Indianapolis Colts podcast. Part of the Locked On Podcast Network, your team every day. All right. Thanks for tuning in and making us your last listen of the day.

Starting point is 00:00:34 First listen of tomorrow. It's late. I don't know. But thanks for joining us. This is your daily podcast covering your Indianapolis Colts. Part of the Locked On Podcast Network, your team every day. And today's show is brought to you by GameTime. Download the GameTime app, create an account, and use code LOCKEDONNFL for $20 off of your

Starting point is 00:00:52 first purchase. What's up, everybody? This is Jake Arthur of HorseshoeHuddle.com. I am your resident credentialed media member for the site. And today we are talking about some of these Colts defensive coordinator candidates. We're going to talk about two of them in real specifics about guys that know quite a bit about these candidates. We're going to talk to Eric Crocker of Locked On 49ers about Steve Wilks and his time with

Starting point is 00:01:18 the 49ers. Now, Crocker obviously is an NFL veteran. He's been around. He knows guys around the league. So he's got a pretty unique perspective on how Wilks is viewed around the NFL. We're also going to talk to Joel Erickson, another guy who has a unique perspective. So Joel, before he came to the Indy Star to cover the Colts, he was down in New Orleans covering the Saints. So he covered Dennis Allen in his time as a defensive coordinator down there with the Saints,

Starting point is 00:01:51 knows how that may translate now to the Colts and their current personnel. So a really good show ahead of you for today. So let's talk about these five candidates real quick. The ones we know about so far, and I'm still not convinced that this is the end of the list, but interviews have begun nonetheless. So we're looking at former Saints head coach Dennis Allen, like we mentioned. He's also got a background as a defensive coordinator for the Saints before then under Sean Payton, former Bengals defensive coordinator Lou Anarumo. It's kind of a polarizing guy around here. Uh, fans look at how porous the Bengals defense was last year, you know, costing Joe Burrow, like a historic season, basically costing them, uh, any chance of getting to the post

Starting point is 00:02:31 season and having success that defense did let them down. Uh, but there's a ton of context there when it comes to Lou Anarumo. Uh, he's definitely had success in Cincinnati as a D coordinator. Uh, you got it kind of a young-comer that not a lot know about. That's Browns safeties coach Ephraim Bonda. And he's another one who, again, there's not a ton of readily available information about him. But among league circles, this is certainly kind of a bright young candidate. We see these offensive guys come up all the time, seemingly coming out of the woodwork.

Starting point is 00:03:05 Bonda kind of comes from that mold, but from the defensive side of the ball. Michigan defensive coordinator Wink Martindale. Obviously, you more so probably know him as the former Ravens defensive coordinator, former Giants defensive coordinator. Went and spent a year with Michigan. Had them, I think, 11th overall in the nation. They had some really big performances. So wherever he's been, he's had at least some sort of success.

Starting point is 00:03:33 Martindale, of course, obviously interviewed for the Colts head coaching job, was a finalist as well back in 2023 when they ultimately hired Shane Steichen. So the Colts are plenty familiar with Wink Martindale. Same can be said for Steve Wilkes, former 49ers defensive coordinators also had time with the Panthers and Cardinals. He's been around a lot. So the Colts actually, I think they interviewed him for a defensive coordinator back when they hired Gus Bradley. So these are kind of this kind of Chris Ballard coming back through his Rolodex of guys he knows very well. Now Ballard crossed with Wilks back in their Chicago Bears days as well.

Starting point is 00:04:14 Wilks comes from that Lovey Smith tree, you know, the Tony Dungy style with that Tampa 2, a little more aggressive and maybe a little more exotic than what we would have saw with Dungy and Smith back in the day. But Wilks, definitely a candidate very well respected across the league. So let's kind of hone in on Allen and Wilks today, because that's who we're talking about when we get with Eric and Joel here. So Dennis Allen, kind of a classic example of a guy who is a really good coordinator,

Starting point is 00:04:44 but when you kind of throw everything on his plate and make him the head coach and everything is on him, it maybe doesn't work out too well. But if he's just tasked with taking care of one side of the ball, defensive coordinator, scheming things up, calling the game, Allen's got a lot of success. So under Sean Payton, when Allen was the D coordinator there, they did have some really tough defenses. I remember them for, you know, the hard hits, the really good pass rush. You know, I think at Cam Jordan getting after it, they had some really productive seasons

Starting point is 00:05:18 from some of their safeties that I remember. So Allen, good track record as a defensive coordinator specifically. Now, when he was having to call the game and be the defensive or the head coach and, you know, kind of being tasked with the defense with the Saints, things definitely slipped. The Saints defense as of the last couple of years was definitely a problem. But if you just kind of look at it in a box of Allen will only be your defensive coordinator. And when he's done that in his career, it's gone well, I think that's kind of a good way to look at it. He's a good candidate nonetheless. Now, he also is another four-man front guy, going to bring a little bit of pressure.

Starting point is 00:06:06 But rather than kind of the two high safeties, you're probably going to be looking at more of a, a single high type of look with him. And then when you go to Wilkes, Wilkes is a guy who, again, if you're looking at kind of the, the cover two type of situation, that's going to be more so Wilkes where Allen is the single high type. Wilkes historically is like to bring a lot of pressure. Now, when you look at his time in San Francisco, as Eric will explain,

Starting point is 00:06:30 it didn't really go how you would expect a Steve Wilks defense to go because they still kind of wanted to run everything that, you know, D'Amico Ryans had been running, Robert Sala, everything that Kyle Shanahan has done there in San Francisco, they wanted to keep it the same, basically. Shanahan kind of stepped out of his comfort zone, hiring someone who wasn't already like under his tree. But, you know, mixed results. You know, they ranked very highly and went to the Super Bowl overall.

Starting point is 00:07:03 But there were some moments where, you know, the defense kind of blew the game. And you wonder who to point the finger at. Well, there's the defensive coordinator calling the defense, but he's kind of hamstrung by not being able to have the creative liberties that he really wants. So here in a moment, we'll go ahead and get started talking with Eric Crocker of Locked On 49ers about Steve Wilk's time there in San Francisco. But first, a word from our sponsors. This is a message from sponsor Intuit TurboTax.

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Starting point is 00:08:24 See guarantee details at TurboTax Live Full Service. Real-time updates only on iOS mobile app. See guarantee details at TurboTax.com slash guarantees. All right, Colts fans. We are here to talk about Steve Wilks today. They obviously are interviewing him this week for their defensive coordinator vacancy. This is a guy that Chris Ballard has had his eyes on for quite a while. And so to talk about Wilks a little bit, we're going to Locked on 49ers host Eric Crocker. What's up, man?

Starting point is 00:08:49 Thanks for joining us today. Oh, yeah, man. All good. Excited to kind of give some insight from maybe a slightly different perspective on Steve Wilks. Yeah, it sounds like it's a pretty interesting situation. So one season there in San Francisco, they go to the Super Bowl. They rank pretty highly defensively. But after one year, it's in and out for Wilks.

Starting point is 00:09:10 How did that all kind of transpire? You know, one thing that was clear right away, I think early in the offseason, Wilks had uttered this in one of the press conferences, basically saying that he was still learning the defense. And he's like, well, how is a defensive coordinator still learning a defense? And I've been saying it for a while now to anyone who would listen, which obviously, you know, a lot of locked on 49er fans or any radio hits I do when the discussion surrounding the 49ers defensive coordinator position comes up, I'm always like, well, Kyle Shanahan is really the defensive coordinator for the 49ers. And what he does is he hires guys to run a defense that he wants them to run.

Starting point is 00:09:50 That was his thought process behind getting Robert Sala in there. Now, it was a seamless transition from Sala to D'Amico Ryans because D'Amico Ryans was hired with Robert Sala and Kyle Shanahan. So Kyle Shanahan started coaching the 49ers in 2017. He immediately hired Robert Sala, who was not his first choice as a defensive coordinator position. And D'Amico Ryans came in with him as well in that same year. So, you know, going from Robert Sala, where it's like, hey, you came from that Seattle cover three system. We want to bring that. I coached against it.

Starting point is 00:10:27 I think that was a very strategic and difficult defense to go up against, even though he destroyed it like that last year. He was with Atlanta in the playoffs. But he's like, I want that defense. So he handpicked Robert Sala, brings him in. Obviously, Domingo Ryan's in there. Throughout their time, you know, a few years into it, a lot of people have caught on to the Seattle scheme. Officer coordinator starting to attack it in different

Starting point is 00:10:48 ways. So they did, you know, transition to more of a two-high defense. But again, Robert Sala, D'Amico Ryan, Kyle Shanahan, they're all in cahoots with this and all on the same page. Well, you go from Robert Sala to D'Amico Ryan, D'Amico truly understanding what Kyle Shanahan is looking for. And then when he gets a head coaching job with Houston, now you have to figure out, okay, am I going to, how am I going to fill this vacancy? And I thought it would be someone in-house, but he went out-house and tried something maybe he maybe wasn't the most comfortable with, but he brought in Wilks and Wilks was highly respected during his time with Carolina. I had great insight from, you know,

Starting point is 00:11:28 players that are still there, some high-end players on Carolina who had nothing but amazing and great things to say about Wilks as a coach, as a skiing guy with the X's and O's, or as a leader of men. Like, I just asked, like, hey, man, how is Wilks there? And, I mean, this guy just rattled off. Man, it was J.C. Horn. He just rattled off all these great things that he had to say about Wilks there. And I mean, this guy just rattled off. It was JC Horn. He's just rattling off all these great things that he had to say about Wilks. So he was highly thought of, but with the 49ers, he was different. The 49ers had D'Amico Ryan's Robert Sala, these raw, raw guys.

Starting point is 00:11:54 You see them on the sideline. They have kind of this like, you know, demonstrous bravado about them. And then, you know, they get excited. They're turned up. Well, Wilks was in the booth and some of the players had an issue with him being in the booth or Kyle Shanahan had an issue with them being in the booth so halfway through the season they made Wilks a guy who's comfortable seeing the game a certain way calling the game a certain way move from the booth to the sideline and I thought it was a scapegoat move, in my opinion. The 49ers had three straight games where they didn't score more than 17 points. They lost those games to the Cleveland Browns, the Cincinnati Bengals,

Starting point is 00:12:31 and the Minnesota Vikings, and it was almost like everyone turned on Wilks during that time where his defense wasn't giving up a ton of points, and I think they gave up 19 points, 22 points, and then they did give up 30 points against the Browns, which Joe Burrow just eviscerated them. But everybody made it seem like that this was an issue throughout the year, which it was not. I thought the defense was pretty good. And what was it perfect? No. And I don't think, you know, from year to year is going to be perfect, you know, on either side of the ball, but they were good. And you talked about some of the metrics and the statistics,

Starting point is 00:13:06 and they were good in those things. Maybe there was a drop-off in certain areas. I think that could have been personnel issues and whatnot. But overall, it wasn't a bad defense. And you talked about the Super Bowl that the 49ers went to. I mean, they held the Kansas City Chiefs to 19 points in regulation. And I thought he did more than enough as a defensive coach, right? Like if I were to tell you, hey, Kansas City Chiefs, at the end of regulation, they're only going to have 19 points.

Starting point is 00:13:31 You would tell me a 49ers team is going to win that football game in regulation, and they didn't. So I thought he did a lot of good things, but I think just personality-wise, you know, not being what Sah and Ryans were for the players and what they were used to, I guess there was just kind of a clash in personalities. And I think it didn't work for that reason, but not because it felt like it was a guy that couldn't be a terrific defense coordinator in the NFL. Yeah, and it's interesting how the Colts so far seem to be going about this because, I mean, Gus Bradley is who they just dismissed, and he is from that same tree, that Seattle tree. But with Wilks, you know, he crossed over with Chris Ballard in Chicago.

Starting point is 00:14:21 Seems to have a variant of the defense that Chris Ballard has always looked at. So my understanding with Wilks is generally he's been more aggressive with blitzes than his time in San Francisco. Let's say he catalogs a little bit of what he took from San Fran, because coaches are kind of pieces of where they've been. How would you imagine Wilks would go into a situation like Indy, for example? It's already a four-man front. They have been with Gus Bradley for three years, so not like wildly different than maybe what he was doing in San Francisco. But between dominant coverages and packages and blitz percentages,

Starting point is 00:15:04 how would you imagine generally his defense would look? You know, ideally, and I think this is for any defensive coordinator, you would love to be able to get after the quarterback rushing for, you know, I think a lot of people like to see the blitzes because it's sexy and you want to generate more pressure. But if you have a front that can generate pressure rushing four, which again, for a while, the 49ers were really good at being able to do that with, especially in, let's say 2019, right? Like you have Nick Bosa and DeForest Buckner and Eric Armstead and Dee Ford, and those guys were able to get pressure with just the four. So, hey, we don't really have to blitz, but there's other times where maybe your pass rush isn't as good and you have to send more blitzes and you see that percentage go up. So I think for Wilks or anyone that's going to be coaching the coach defense is what does this front look like? And do they need

Starting point is 00:15:53 help? And if they need help, then we are going to have to send more blitzes and pressure the quarterback in different ways. So I think there, again, ideally, if I'm calling a defense, which I, I'm a head coach, high school football, you know, and I talked to my defensive coordinator, I'm like, hey, if we can get after it with four and play coverage behind it, man, let's do it. But if we don't have the ability to consistently get pressure with four and move quarterbacks off of their spots, then that's when that blitz percentage will go up. And you're going to be sending five guys, you're going to be sending six, you're going to be sending four, but you're dropping an edge and then maybe sending a nickel off the edge.

Starting point is 00:16:30 So there's different ways to kind of simulate pressures and whatnot. But I think a lot of it has to do with the personnel that you have. And you mentioned being a leader of men and everything. A big issue with the Colts defense has been, you know, guys who maybe were average to above average getting, you know, nice paydays. And the Colts didn't really bring in a lot of competition. These guys kind of became complacent. You know, they didn't really have to battle for their spots. And you saw a lot of that on the field, you know, guys relying on others to make the play, get the ball and And it's stuff Bradley himself even pointed out.

Starting point is 00:17:05 So when it comes to accountability and everything, like have you seen anything with Steve Wilks in his past where, you know, players were just, you know, kind of getting off scot-free and not being held accountable? Or is he more likely to kind of make changes? I know you said it's kind of Shanahan's call there, but did you ever see any instances of that where things were maybe

Starting point is 00:17:25 slipping in that department uh we saw the 49ers in the middle of the season in 2022 they traded for Chase Chase Young and there was a time where Chase Young it looked like on film and and these clips were getting highlighted that there wasn't a whole lot of energy or effort on certain plays where it just didn't look like he was giving his all. And the fans are really upset about it. So obviously, if the fans are disgruntled, the media, they're going to bring it up. And they mentioned it. And, you know, Wilks, it sounded like he held him accountable and said that those are things that will be fixed and you won't be seeing that moving forward.

Starting point is 00:18:05 I can't think of any other instances instances off the top of my head because the 49ers, they have a really good culture of holding each other accountable. Yeah. And, you know, Kyle Shanahan has done a good job of bringing those kind of guys in, even with like the Devondra Campbell thing. If I don't know if coach saw that, but it was a guy who refused to go into the game. And, you know, John Lynch came down from the, from the, the suite and kicked him off of the field, get out of here. And he'd never put on a 49ers uniform again after that game. So I think, you know, ultimately they have a good culture where, you know, John Lynch, Kyle Shanahan, and of course his coordinators are going to be on page, on the same page with holding everyone accountable.

Starting point is 00:18:46 So that didn't seem like it was something that was going to solely have to be the job of, you know, whoever the defensive coordinator is. And at the time Wilkes, I don't think that was an issue. They have a good locker room, hold each other accountable. That's good. That's what the Colts tried to do very publicly. They talked a lot about it, you know, when Chris Ballard came in and it kind of has slipped and he's acknowledged

Starting point is 00:19:07 that a bit. So, you know, at a certain point when you, it seems like when you fire a coordinator or a coach, you want to try and bring in the opposite of that, but schematically and history wise, it seems like the Colts aren't trying to stray too far away from that. But Eric, thanks so much for telling us a little bit more about Steve Wilkes. I think that definitely helps give context to when, you know, fans see a guy was in and out after a year and things like that. I think we're going to get into that with Lou Anarumo from the

Starting point is 00:19:34 Bengals as well. There's a lot of context there. So definitely, definitely appreciate you kind of explaining that a bit. Thanks for having me on. All right. Thanks again, Eric. That was great. Again, it's really valuable to get that context when you see a guy was in and out of a building within one year. Why did he get fired? Why did they depart? I think, you know, Eric laid it out perfectly. It gives you the reasons why something didn't work out. Even if, you know, on paper, it seems like it did, you know, the 49ers did rank pretty high defensively and got to the Super Bowl while Wilks was there. So thanks again to Eric for that.

Starting point is 00:20:12 Now coming up next, we're going to talk with our guy Joel Erickson, the chat that Zach had with him breaking down Dennis Allen and his time with the New Orleans Saints. I love going to live events, whether it's sports, music, theater, comedy. I've pretty much done all of it this in the last year, kind of getting back, getting my feet wet again with the live events thing. And I got to tell you, game time has been a huge help there. One of my favorite memories was attending a concert last year. You know, I did a couple of them out at that Clipsh, Deer Creek, whatever you still call it. a huge help there. One of my favorite memories was attending a concert last year. You know, I did a couple of them out at that Clipsch, Deer Creek, whatever you still call it.

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Starting point is 00:21:47 Again, create an account and redeem code LOCKEDONNFL for $20 off. Download GameTime today. What time is it? GameTime. All right, Colts fans. We are here with Joel A. Erickson. You guys know him and you love him over at the Indy Star. Today we're not actually going to lean on his Colts fans, we're here with Joel A. Erickson. You guys know him and you love him over at the Indy Star. Today, we're not actually going to lean on his Colts knowledge, though. We're going to go back a little bit to his time covering the New Orleans Saints because the Colts are interviewing Dennis Allen for their vacant defensive coordinator job. Joel is very familiar with Dennis Allen, again, from their overlap there in New Orleans. So, Joel, what can you tell me about Dennis Allen and what are your thoughts on him as a candidate for defensive coordinator?

Starting point is 00:22:28 Well, you know, in talking to people who've been down there since he took over as head coach, a lot of the issues with head coach are not things that would be as big a deal or even really a problem with defensive coordinator. A lot of it had to do with sort of that head coaching stuff where you put yourself in front of the public and you say things and then that has ramifications in the locker room and all that stuff. That stuff doesn't happen nearly as much at defensive coordinator. The guys down there feel like he'd be he's still a really, really good defensive coordinator.

Starting point is 00:22:57 I think the biggest thing is just and this kind of goes along with a lot of the other candidates. There's there's aggression to Dennis Allen. There's there's a blitz to Dennis Allen. You're going to see him get creative. I think the thing that sticks out most is in two-minute drills and those kind of situations, late games and close, you always know a blitz is coming from him, but he's really, really good at timing it up.

Starting point is 00:23:24 It's not always on third down. It's not always on first down. He always finds a way to get an all-out blitz is coming from him but he's really really good at timing it up it's not always on third down it's not always on first down like it's it's he always finds a way to get an all-out blitz in and it always seemed to take everybody off guard uh i think the other thing is like people kind of know the saints now is like being an all-around team after the last run but when he took over the saints defense they were garbage garbage. They were worse than garbage. Yeah. It was what Rob Ryan, right? And I remember there's that famous meme of Rob Ryan, that complaining face that he had.

Starting point is 00:23:54 I think that was with the Saints or whatever. Dennis Allen comes in. You mentioned it. I mean, he had consistent top 10 units there for years as a defensive coordinator, even when he first took over as head coach, the defense was playing well. I know it kind of fell off a little bit this season with him at head coach, but yeah, it was consistent production from that defense. And again, do you think that was mostly because of what he brought into, brought to the table there? Because I mean, growing up, what I remember with those Saints defenses is, oh, Drew Brees and Sean Payton are perfect. And then on defense, they can't stop anybody.

Starting point is 00:24:27 Yeah, no, a lot of it was Allen. You know, they added some pieces, but he also got more out of those pieces than anybody else had. Like DeMario Davis is the best example. Before Dennis Allen got a hold of DeMario Davis, like he was a good starter in some places. He kind of fell out of favor in some other places. He gets the Saints. I think most Colts fans don't know this because the Saints have kind of fell out of favor in some other places. He gets the Saints.

Starting point is 00:24:49 I think most Colts fans don't know this because the Saints have kind of been out of it for a little while. Demario Davis has been like one of the top five best linebackers in football for the last five or six years. Yes. And that's a guy that really, really, he got a ton of. There's some other guys in there like Von Bell is a guy he got a ton out of that you haven't maybe gotten as much out of other places. He's really good at designing the scheme to fit things. And I think if he came to Indianapolis, one of the other things I think about

Starting point is 00:25:15 is a lot of the Saints defensive linemen kind of fit what the Colts have on the defensive line right now. They're bigger bodies, not necessarily – Latu would be the exception to this. But some of these They're bigger bodies. Not necessarily, Latu would be the exception to this, but some of these guys are bigger bodies. They can kind of stop the run and pass rush at the same time. Like those are the bodies that he had with the Saints a lot. You know, he made some mistakes. Like they probably didn't realize what they had in Trey Hendrickson. But like you said, even while they were not realizing what they have in Trey Hendrickson, they were like a top seven defense in both yardage and scoring.

Starting point is 00:25:47 Yeah. And one thing that people have been really like asking a ton of questions about is if they hire so-and-so at defense coordinator, and we'll put Dennis Allen in this hypothetical here, you know, a lot of people are saying like, what do we need to add to the defense for that defense coordinator to make it work? Do you think Allen, especially out of like all these other candidates is the guy where, you know, he can step in and maybe maximize what they currently have.

Starting point is 00:26:09 Like, sure. We still need Chris Ballard to do something and free agency and bring in some other guys. But do you think Allen would be the type that can kind of maximize the guys that are already here? I know that was the feeling in the saints locker room. The saints locker room felt like if you play in this guy's scheme,

Starting point is 00:26:28 he'll make you better. I do think the one thing, and this is probably true for any coordinator we name, but they need better corners. They got to have somebody to play the outside. I think Kenny Moore in Dennis Allen's scheme, I think he'd have a lot of fun with him. Just the blitzing ability, the ball hawking stuff. You know, they had Matthew down there, who I've always felt is kind of like, you know, Kenny in a different position, essentially. But, like, for a long time there, they had Lattimore. And the Colts don't have – no, Lattimore is an up-and-down player. You just watch the playoff game, you're thinking, oh, Lattimore's no good. But Lattimore, when he was on one of the best corners in football,

Starting point is 00:27:04 the Colts don't have anybody on the roster right now who could approximate that so that's that's the biggest thing I would think of is they got to add corners but like I said they the guys they're the guys they're interviewing they need to add corners no matter what because all these guys were aggressive yeah and I think it's interesting too because you never would think that Dennis Allen out of a group of five guys would maybe be the least blitz like person out of all them but he kind of is out of this group like he kind of marries it a little bit better in terms of like when to blitz when not to blitz where a wink martindale is gonna blitz 24 7 every single play is a blitz with wink mart he's like me playing

Starting point is 00:27:40 that basically we're gonna blitz every single play because i can't call a coverage thing um so with dennis allen though like let's get to the kind of aggression thing because that again is a big part of this what you've mentioned the blitz isn't like the two minute drive is it kind of like like over aggression at times like a wink martindale or is it kind of like tempered aggression it's time in a sense my my sense is like my feel is like it was always timed up well. And he had some guys who were really, really, really good blitzers. Like if you go look at like Davis is a really good example. And I don't, I don't know that Zaire Franklin can do this, frankly, but like Demario Davis has like 44 and a half career sacks. And he's's got like he's got more than five several times in his saints career a lot of that is just like some of it is davis's skill as a blitzer and some of it is just alan

Starting point is 00:28:32 knowing when to call it or how to call it um so it's he came from the greg williams tree which is like a 4-3 version of wake martindale it It's like the remember the Titans. It's like the remember the Titan scene where he's like, you blitz all night. Yep. Yep. But he doesn't, he hasn't done that. And he's kind of gone away from that a little bit as he's gone on is my understanding. But I also think that, or I've been told that maybe one of the lessons of them kind of falling off a little bit beyond just, you know, like Cam Jordan got really old.

Starting point is 00:29:04 They were still counting on him and stuff like that was like don't lose what makes you you um as you go along but yeah like i said the feeling down there is that he would get back to being who he was and like i said maybe more timed up i know his blitz rates aren't nearly as high as some of these other guys like you said mart, Martindale is like – It's like 45%. It's insane. Yeah, it's like if he doesn't call a blitz, it's an accident. Right, right. It's like he hit the wrong button or something there. Two more questions here for you, Joel. Talking to – or like you've had relationships with New Orleans players,

Starting point is 00:29:38 obviously, in the past. What was the sense kind of for players playing with Dennis Allen? You kind of alluded to it in one of your other answers there that like they all kind of believed that Allen would get the best out of them. But what was kind of the relationship between defensive players and Dennis Allen? Well, so I think that was one of the things my understanding is, I think if you look, you have to go back and look at my old coworker, Nick Underhill, reporting on some of this. But one of the weaknesses was that he had a little bit of a tendency to play favorites at times.

Starting point is 00:30:07 Like, that's what happened with Hendrickson. They didn't really realize what they had in Trey Hendrickson. My understanding, though, is that because that stuff ended up hurting him badly as a head coach, you know, like, you criticize a wide receiver and ignore the fact that the quarterback's not playing well. The roster notices that. But the fact that that some of that stuff happened while he was a head coach, my understanding is he got a lot better at that as the, um, like towards the end, like it, it kind of gotten away from him already and it wasn't going to come back and Derek Carr was hurt, but he was starting to do a better job of that.

Starting point is 00:30:41 And I think the feeling from down there is when he's a DC again, like he's going to be better about that because of what he learned as a head coach. Awesome. Awesome. And one more question, this one specific for you. We're not going to ask all of our other guests this one, but this is just because you're in the indie market, obviously at the indie star, how likely do you think the chances are for like a Dennis Allen to be the defensive coordinator here? I know he's got ties to a lot of other guys in this head coaching cycle, like the Ben Johnsons and Aaron Glenns all come from that Sean Payton type of tree of coaching. So that's a realistic fit for him.

Starting point is 00:31:14 But how likely do you think Dennis Allen plays into this search? I think he's somebody that Shane Steichen has a lot of respect for. I've heard him talk about going up against Dennis Allen before and kind of not knowing. You know this as well as anybody, but most of the NFL in play calling is based on what looks you think you're going to get from the defense. And I know that Dennis Allen is a guy that's considered hard to read, that it's hard to know what coverage you're going to get.

Starting point is 00:31:43 What you're trying to get into his head is way more difficult than like say gus bradley's for instance um but um so i know there's a lot of respect there and i think and i also think ballard chris ballard has some history with him from way back when um they kind of both from that texas you know southern texas area type thing i know they know each other i think the biggest thing that would make me think that there's not that it's difficult it's just like it's what you said there's there's so many potential sean payton tree offshoots like does aaron glenn take him you know if aaron glenn gets a saint's job maybe not maybe you don't want to bring him back that quickly but like if aaron glenn leaves detroit then dan campbell needs

Starting point is 00:32:25 a defensive coordinator and dan campbell worked with him for five years and if ben johnson gets a job i don't know what ben johnson's defensive coordinator contacts are but i would assume that he's been around dennis allen since the rest of the coaching staff worked with him so there's there's that piece of it i think is the hardest part with him is like, all these guys are interviewing for a bunch of jobs, but the ties, I know you do a really good job of this. Always like looking at who people have coached with the ties with Alan are, you don't have to draw them very far. They're, they're in bright red. It's obvious. And, you know, like, I don't know if you're the Colts and you go, you want him in the Lions want him. Yeah. A lot more security too, with the Lions, like, you know, Dan Campbell's

Starting point is 00:33:13 going to be there forever. He's going to get the lifetime contract, uh, and second and Chris Ballard up in the air a little bit for next year. But Dennis Allen seems like a great candidate. I think he'd be a fantastic defensive coordinator for the Colts and kind of reminds me a lot of Steve Spagnuolo in a lot of ways that's been super successful for the Kansas City Chiefs. So, Joel, thank you for joining and talking about Dennis Allen. We've got plenty more candidates to talk about here on Locked on Colts as well. Thanks for having me. All right, guys, really, really good stuff from our guests today.

Starting point is 00:33:43 I hope you guys learned a little bit something. I know I definitely did. I think a lot of this stuff starts to get confusing as more and more candidates get added to the table. So we're going to we're going to keep trying to plug away and get more interviews done for you guys so that, you know, there's five candidates right now. We've got two off the list. We want to know as much about these guys as possible. We want you to as well so that we can make informed guesses and decisions on who we ultimately want the Colts to bring in. So thank you guys again for making Locked on Colts your first listen today or your last listen.

Starting point is 00:34:18 Next, go find Locked on NFL. First, the madman Tyler Rowland is going to kick off your morning with a double shot of NFL espresso and then you got to stop by the barbershop with Tony Wiggins for some real NFL talk. Just find Locked on NFL on YouTube or wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you guys want to become a Locked on Colts insider

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Locked On Colts - Daily Podcast On The Indianapolis Colts - Indianapolis Colts DC Candidates Dennis Allen, Steve Wilks Offer Fast, Pressure-Filled Defenses

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