Locked On Colts - Daily Podcast On The Indianapolis Colts - LOCKED ON COLTS -3/25- Not Your Pappy's EDGE Rankings W/@JohnOwning

Episode Date: March 25, 2017

This EDGE class IS deep, and continues to get even more interesting as the NFL Draft approaches. John Owning (FanRag Sports) drops in to spit fire from his class rankings, and an interesting trio of pass rushers the #Colts could end up having to choose from in the first-round. #Draft Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Learn more about our healthy benefits at fepblue.org slash getmore. No, I'm not for sale. You are lockeded On Colts, your daily Indianapolis Colts podcast. Part of the Locked On Podcast Network, your team every day. Welcome back to Locked On Colts, ladies and gentlemen. I'm your host, Matt Dainley, and today we've got another special guest with you. I told you we were going to lock it down this weekend weekend and we've got a special weekend edition show for you we're gonna go right after these edge rushers and we got my boss at fan rag sports and uh edge aficionado uh john owning on the line with us tonight john what is going on my man not much

man just enjoying this weather watchingness, having a good night. It is. What is it like there? It's about like 60s right now. Just chilling. I'm right above a little putting green. I kind of feel like I'm in Cali then as well because it's like 65 here in Indiana. Like unseasonably warm. Yeah. actually broke a sweat today at work. It was kind of crazy. So, well, we are here to talk to edge rushers for you guys. We've had a lot of opinions on this show,

and we've had a lot of different guys talk about a lot of different prospects and where they've got them ranked. And definitely John's got some of his own feel for sure, especially at his number two spot. You've heard a lot of different guys at that number two spot, Solomon Thomas. I mean, the list goes on and on about who is at that number two, number three spot. Who you got at your deuce right there, John? My number two guy is Auburn's Carl Lawson.

You know, he's a guy that not many have that high, but I just love what he brings to the table. His nuanced pass rush abilities is tops in the class, even better than Miles Garrett. The way he is able to set up his pass rushes with that diversity of footwork is incredible. And his hand technique is what I really, really, really love about him. He really knows how to soften that edge with clubs, hammers,

you know, using his length well. And he knows how to get his hips aligned so that he doesn't have to force his body to bend a lot because he's not the most flexible player. So he's the type of player who's not only extremely technically sound, he's also very aware of his limitations. He's a guy that I really enjoyed watching a lot. And I would continually hear people talking about like he's somewhere in the second round, mid second round, even for theirs, just for different reasons, whether it be health or otherwise. But he was always a guy that I really enjoyed watching. I thought, man, this guy is just so natural and athletic. just, I mean, he's a, I mean, the dude is chiseled and I have a hard time seeing how he lasts into the second round. I mean, I just don't see it, but, uh, like I said,

so many other people have Solomon Thomas and Derek Barnett, a lot of those guys up there. I mean, and it really varies quite a bit. Even Tim Williams for some people is pretty high. Uh, who's your, who's your number three guy that you got? So we got a little bit of comparison there. We got Miles Garrett, and then we got Carl Lawson. Who's your number three? You know how you were saying how it was a little bit unseasonably warm in Indiana? Yeah.

I think it was because they knew this take was coming today, because my third edge is Garrett Rivers from Youngstown State I should preface that by saying he has the exact same grade as Solomon Thomas in my grading system but I just placed number three because I like to do cool things like that but I love I love Rivers he's just he had He's the whole package. When you have a small school pass rusher, there's a couple criteria that he has to fit. First of all, he has to dominate the lower level of play that he goes against. He has to dominate the other small school prospects.

He has to dominate those accountants, those lawyers. And then number two, he has to show up in the all-star circuit. He went to the Senior Bowl, was the best edge defender there by far to my eyes and to most of the people around me's eyes. So then he checked off that. And then the third, the last step he had to do is he had to prove that he was athletic enough to transfer his skill set from the FCS level to the NFL. And he tested as one of the best athletes in Indianapolis. So he really passes everything he's a type of guy that he's very technically sound despite being from a small school you see

him play his run fits well you see him squeeze his gaps you see the good hand usage he plays with good leverage good pad level he does good with his get off his pass reps is just is very good instead of being a hand technique kind of guy like Carl Lawson is, Derek Rivers is more of a guy that likes to play through an offensive tackle's pads. He likes to do those push-pull moves. He likes to do the slingshots, those snatches where you get a really hold of the offensive tackle and move and counter based off his weight distribution and whatnot. So he's kind of that type of guy.

And I would like to see him develop maybe a little bit more with with his hand fighting so that he can get to the quarterback just a little bit faster but besides that he has everything else you want he has the bend he has the closing speed he has the get off he's just an incredible player to watch you know watching him at youngstown state against those other small school players those left tack those uh right tackles actually because he was a left defensive end had no chance it was unfair yeah i really liked him too and you know there it was i was writing one of my articles on some edge guys like uh i don't honestly i don't even know maybe a couple months ago maybe not even

quite that long and thought like i was on something here i'm like i like this dude and i've not heard anybody say anything and i swear i didn't even have the thing published yet. And Joe Marino was on him, just talking him up like crazy. I swear, it was almost like I wrote it, go to Twitter, and then Derek Rivers is just going crazy on Twitter. And I'm like, I am not on this guy at all. Everybody's on this guy. What is going on? But he is a really impressive guy. Now, how much do you think, I mean, because when you look at guys like this in the FCS level, you're looking at guys that, like you're saying, oh, they dominated this guy or they dominated that guy. But that's not really what you're looking at for them, is it?

I mean, you're looking at their traits, like you said, their hand usage, actually how they dominate their opponent. And Rivers does that, like, feasibly without any problem whatsoever. And his stuff's really technical it's really nice too um because he can he can he can do both the power and and the uh the swim moves i mean he can get he has more uh tools in his chest than people are going to give him credit for exactly you know when you watch him you see the his hand placement You see him play with his hands above his eyes. You see him shed. You see all the technical things that you look for in any edge defender.

He shows a lot. He's obviously not a perfect prospect, but he is one of the most technically sound ones there is. With the fundamentals, his fundamentals are really, really good. I really like him too. I'm excited to see where he goes. I know that he's been getting a little bit of pub i think from teams as well i think teams are really starting to pay attention to him as well but uh man it's so interesting once we get into this time of year to not only see to different analysts uh points of

views on these kind of guys but to it'll be really interesting, obviously, once the draft is here and we really get to see where teams have these guys on their boards, more or less. Some of it you don't get to see because guys get drafted and you don't know where they were on their board. But when they take a guy in that first round, a lot of people are going to think some of it's a reach. A lot of people, that's just where their board's at. Hi, this is Maury Moreland-Morrison,

here to tell you Geico has more than just great their board's not. All the more reason to say no other auto insurer has more more than Geico. Geico, expect great savings and a whole lot more. This, you know, one of the other guys that I got to talk about on here that I did not see it with this guy. I've heard a lot of different people talking him up, but I've also heard a lot of people, you know, kind of been, you know, kind of soft on him a little bit. And it's TJ Watt. He's a guy that I, for the life of me, I've watched, I think I've watched like three or four of his games. I felt like I could get a pretty good gist of what he would bring to the table, but I just don't see him being that edge rush guy in the NFL.

Do you see him kind of translating into a different type of role, or do you see him kind of breaking out in that way? I'm very different from a lot of people. A lot of people that like him would play him off the ball or at outside linebacker in the 3-4, but I'm one of the few who believes that I think his best position would be at defensive end in the NFL. A big problem with his projection from Wisconsin is a lot of what Wisconsin did on defense

inhibited Watt from showing his real pass rush traits consistently. Because if you think about it, on half the snaps already, he's dropping back in the coverage. And then on top of that, on the snaps that he does rush a lot of times i would even i don't even know a lot of times he is asked to run stunts with the defense attack or the five technique defensive end for wisconsin and that took him out of a lot of snaps and then other snaps where he rushed the passer he had to first read his run keys

or make sure the tight end wasn't, or the running back wasn't leaking out before he rushed. So you don't see the first step explosiveness that you really want in a pass rusher. But when you isolate the times where you can tell that he's going to rush before the play, you know, he's really leaning heavy on his front foot. You could see him coiled,

ready to explode off the line of scrimmage. that's where you start to see his really good first step quickness that's where that combine his really good combine showing really shows you see the bend you see him be able to bend even though he doesn't do it consistently because he still doesn't know how to use his hands very well as a pass rusher but you see all physically you see everything you want you see him be able to create steep angles with his ankles hips knees as he's running the corner and you see power with his hands you see everything you need you just want to see him develop a little bit more because he's a guy just like his brother jj in college he's transferring over he was a tight end when

he came to wisconsin right and 2015 he just transferred over to defense so you know he's still learning he still has a lot of things a lot of the technical nuances that like derrick rivers thrives in he doesn't even know yet and i think probably guys like me i don't necessarily give him the credit for that too that's quite a transition though huh it is quite a transition but from everything that I've read about him from his days at Wisconsin is that he's a really, really hard worker. So I'm always a sucker for guys that I know

have amazing work ethic to go with a really good athleticism because you know they're going to put the work in to gain the knowledge of those technical nuances that are just going to allow him to exacerbate his athletic advantage even more. Yeah. And that's probably,

you know what, that's a great point too, because like I said, that's probably, I'm, that's something I hadn't really taken into account. Like I said, just watching the straight film.

And then you, if you're not considering that he's, he's just getting there, you know, and where he's at already. Definitely. I didn't think he was terrible by any means but you know when you uh see some of these other guys that are big physical and have you know that get

off and stuff and it just makes you feel like i think he's a little behind but yeah he's behind for a reason but you know another thing that kind of jumped out to me watching his tape was that it seemed like he was really slim but when you look at at his, uh, measurements, uh, six, four to 50 plus, that's right about par for a lot of this edge class. I mean, for the majority of them. And then you look at, I mean, the, the bigger guys, you know, in the two sixties, two seventies, but that's, I mean, this is a very widespread, there's 20, 25 pounds between a lot of these guys. So, I mean, there's a little bit of something for everybody. This is definitely a, uh, uh full of different looks and different flavors for sure. It's going to be, the interesting part about this is there's so many teams that need dominant

pass rushers. There's also a handful of teams that just really would love to get a fantastic edge guy to be able to, you know, a strong side backer to be able to shore up the running game. Is there somebody that sticks out in this class that may be getting a little more pub as an edge rusher who you think would project a lot better as a strong side outside backer? Yeah, guys likeyan anderson type of guy from alabama i think would really do well there and then and then guys like um a guy i really like that a lot of people aren't on yet is uh carol phillips from illinois he's a undersized very very undersized for an edge defender but if you put him at like that strong side outside linebacker he's going his athleticism his flexibility his

the jolt that he packs in his punches for how small he is is really really really good now he's an older prospect he's 25 so that's gonna you have to think about that when you're thinking of second contracts with edge players but i think immediately he has the athleticism and the athleticism is not only the bf factor as like maybe if you want to reduce him down to defensive end in in obvious pass rush situations or you can put him in coverage he's that fluid of an athlete there's another guy on this list uh that i kind of i mean just from watching this guy's tape specifically i haven't watched all these guys by any means but another another guy on here is Joe Mathis. That's kind of how he jumps off.

That's what I see in him is a nice, strong side backer who may have some of that edge rush mentality in him, but I just don't think that's him in the NFL. Yeah, he's going to be a butt kicker in the nfl against the run i think as a strong side backer as you say he he doesn't have the length and stuff that you want and he doesn't have exactly all of the quick twitch muscle fibers and athleticism and bend and you know awareness as a rusher but in the run all of his traits go well. He's so violent with his hands. Yes.

Really good with that hip roll, creating movement. He can reset the line of scrimmage. He can shed. He can penetrate. He's going to make somebody very happy in that role, in my opinion. Yeah, I totally agree with you. I was watching him, and I'm sitting here thinking, no, I'm not trying to get this guy the rushbacker.

This guy, that's just not him. But, man, he's going to fill a role for somebody for sure, and he's going to be good at it. Every time at the snap you see whatever tackle he's working against, they're getting basically a car wreck just from his arms right into their neck and their shoulders and their chest i mean he is off quick and given i'll tackle everything that they can handle yes he's he's the the word that just comes out when i watch him is violence he's a violent fighter and that's exactly what you want in that type of role yep absolutely i would be all for that uh later on and in the uh

in the draft for sure for him. Now, there's a guy that you've got ranked around 10, I believe. You said at 10, I think, with Jordan Willis, correct? Yes. Now, he's a guy that I felt like I weathered the storm with a lot of people that were kind of saying, you know, he's not that good, but he is going to blow up the combine and stuff. And I was like, I don't care what he does at the combine.

I like his tape a lot. I don't think he's that, you know, a lot of people are talking about his bend and how he can hit the corner. And I understand that too. But this guy is going to go through people and he has enough hand technique and he has a ton of coachability, in my opinion. You can see the way he's transitioned throughout the season that he's gonna learn about everything you could possibly learn except that

extra bit of uh bend in the ankles in order to hit the corner and i want this guy on my team yes he's a very he is a very perplexing watch for me just because i got so hung up on the combine measurables between the three cone and his ability to bend on tape is is not good right but i think a lot of that has to do with is a lot of these players when they go to these speed camps they're training like track athletes and a big part of being in track is being flexible. And I think my theory is that at one of these speed camps, whatever he's at, Exos or whatever, they probably really worked on his flexibility, and that unlocked the elite-level athleticism that we have seen him now.

Because even in stuff like him flipping his hips in the linebacker drills that he did at the combine, that was way more fluid than anything drills that he did at the combine that was way more fluid than anything you saw him do at the nfl yeah and i that was due to them unlocking his athletic potential by making him a more flexible player now on the field he he might have the best motor in this entire class and when you combine a great motor with a elite like 99th or 90th percentile athleticism you're going to get a player that should be able to develop into something very very good for a team there's another guy on this list that you know i really enjoyed watching i've got a piece coming up uh

here in the next couple days so i'm not going to give too much of it away. But Tyus Bowser really impressed me. I mean, he's a super athletic guy. But he's another guy who's going to have just, he seems like he's going to have a very defined role as well. Like it's either going to be headhunt the quarterback or drop in coverage. Because he was dropped into coverage a ton. And he's so quick, though. He is explosive, explosive, explosive. I don't know that he's a three-down player. I don't know. I'm not saying that I don't think he is. I just don't know.

But I love his athleticism. I love his ability to go after. I was really impressed with his ability to split a double team. I mean, he's a big dude, but he does come off a little thin in there. But, man, he gets through a lot of the double team. He's quick around the edge when they send him. But they just sent him, they dropped him in coverage so much that it was really hard to tell, you know, what you're going to get out of that guy at the NFL if you do send him, you know, 60% of the snaps that he's playing.

But I'm interested to see how he translates to the NFL because the guy's got a crazy amount of athletic ability and he's got plenty of speed and he's got plenty of size and power too. So, I mean, he's not a guy who's weak by any means, but he is definitely a guy that I've got on my radar to make sure that I'm following. Now, who's a guy that you see in this edge class here that nobody's really talking about even still? It can't be Derek Rivers. Draft Twitter has ran him in the ground right now. He is not sneaking up on anybody, but who's somebody that you think is sneaking up on some people in this draft? One guy who I like who hasn't been getting a lot of pub is Terrell Basham from Ohio. Love him.

Yes. He's a guy. He was a fun guy to watch. He's a dang spark plug coming off the line. He is going to explode every snap as a pass rusher off the line, which is great to see. And then you see him with, you know, he's not the most technical guy, but he does have solid technique. And he's kind of a stiff-hip guy, but you see him be able to work things like a spin in. You see him be able to be tight and compact with his hands at times. He's the type of guy that I would want to bring it and develop and be somebody

who can develop into that number one or number two pass rusher for a team but he's gonna initially because of him against the run right now i'm not gonna i don't think he's gonna be that effective against the run so i would play him in a situational pass rusher role initially before maybe giving him a bigger role, maybe year two. I would like to see him drop a little weight because a lot of his, um, it looks like a lot of his natural movement at the position reminds me a little bit of Freeney because you can see that he tries to spin in both

directions a lot and that he does, you know, command that presence once he, uh, you know, forces the contact with the tackle or whoever he's getting around. He, he just come off to me like that. Now I'm not saying he's at Dan or at, uh, Dwight Freeney's level by any means. I'm just saying that he just comes off. I mean, maybe it's bodybuild watching the tape or something like that. And then seeing the spin moves too. I mean, it's, it's something you've seen in the past and you just, you know, it's automatically what you go to. But I think that if he was to drop a little bit of weight and would get some of that speed within his game at the position, I think that would help him a little bit too. Not a lot, just enough to increase his mobility and would allow him to get

through that edge a little bit better. So who's the most intriguing guy that you've seen? Somebody, and it doesn't have to be somebody that's low-balling. For that matter, it could be Miles Garrett for a guy that just absolutely jumps off the screen at you. But who's a guy that kind of has something all his own maybe that the rest of this class doesn't really have i would say the most interesting guy for me in this class is derrick barnett from tennessee because he's such an interesting player because he's a guy who wins with bend and he wins with flexibility you know really running the arc contorting steep angles he might have the best the best bend in this entire class yep but you have there's questions about whether his upfield burst his initial quickness is good

enough for him to be able to take advantage of his great bend because for you to be able to bend around the corner you have to get to the edge of the offensive tackle and there's no way he's going to get to the edge of the offensive tackle if he doesn't stress their pass set enough and if he doesn't have the outfield burst uh um stress their pass that he's gonna have to develop way better hand technique than he has right now his hand technique as a rusher is very rudimentary as a run as a run defender you see more nuanced hand technique but as a pass rusher he's very very very raw in that area which is weird for a guy who's so highly touted and has so many sacks of him but he just doesn't you just don't see him consistently create separation you know you don't see him

consistently beat the hands of an opposing tackle he's just running around them using flexibility you know maybe barely swipe like softening his edge with a chop move or something but it's very rudimentary at this point yeah and that's really the key with a lot of these guys is attacking the joints i mean anything with the joints it's you know open game you're going to loosen the grip you're going to uh help you know uh get their hands out of your way and get your body into them and be able to swim and hook. I mean, it's really a key thing. Like you said, as much as this guy has just blown up the sack numbers through college,

it's something you wouldn't expect to hear is that his hand usage is a little bit south of where it needs to be, and probably quite a bit, actually. But he is a guy that i've loved watching but i've had several people tell me that they don't think that he's going to be around for the colts at 15 and i don't disagree with that but i need from you three guys that the colts are going to be looking at are not necessarily they're going to be looking at but three guys that are going to be there at 15 that the Colts should choose from.

All right. First guy that I think they should choose from is definitely the guy we talked about earlier, Carl Lawson. You know, Indianapolis, you guys need a bona fide, butt kicking pass rusher and Carl Lawson would be, would be able to develop into that kind of guy for your guy, for you guys, in my opinion. So he's number one.

Number two, obviously I could just go down guys that I've already said, like Derek Rivers or TJ Watt, but I'm going to give you an interesting, I'm going to think, I think if the Colts can be okay with Tim Williams' considerable off-the-field baggage, I heard that he's actually done well in testing, so there's a possibility that he has you know mitigated some those concerns but he's a guy who i think would be really good in indianapolis being able to really scream off the edge with those violent

hands and i think he would be a very very very good addition to the team and while i don't think his year one projection is as good as carl austin i think his year two three four projection is very very high if he know if he learns some more of the nuances and awareness of when to start his bend for um as he's rushing the passer and then the last guy who i think would be good as a guy who actually a couple months ago i would have never thought he would fit this but the combine just opened my eyes as a guy like Solomon Thomas from Stanford he's a guy who a lot of people have who say would work best at inside but when you're six foot three and 273 pounds you're not going to be able to make a living playing inside consistently but

he has the burst he has the contortion of his upper body. He can create angles with his lower body. But just like Derek Rivers, he's not the type of guy that's going to win with a ton of hand fighting besides a quick swim. He's going to play through an offensive lineman's pads, and he's going to push, pull, snatch, those type of moves. And unlike any of the other guys that I mentioned, Solomon Thomas is going to be a damn dominant force against the run.

So if you wanted somebody day one who you wanted to maybe make the biggest impact, I would think Stanford Solomon Thomas may be the guy. He's a guy that a lot of people have off the board before then, but not according to your rankings as well. And that's respectable because like we already talked about, a lot of these teams are going to have this, this, their list, especially in this group, vastly different from others. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of teams that were down at the, down at the combine and a lot of them were not wanting teams, other teams, scouts and themselves to kind of intermix too often because they didn't want to deal with

groupthink. And a lot of people talk about that as a Patriots, but that was the deal with a lot of different teams. It wasn't just them. They just got the, they're the ones that are getting the pub for it. So, but, and that's, and that there's a reason for that because they know what they want for their schemes and so on and so forth. And it just will do nothing but flood the gates for a certain guy. And that's how you end up getting busts when you start listening to other teams. John, thank you for joining me, man. That was interesting to get through yours, which is a little bit of a different board than what we're used to.

And that's fantastic because that's what I want to hear. I want to see and hear more options for the Colts, like different guys that are going to be able to fit those schemes, different guys that are going to be able to do A, B, and C. And I don't know that the Colts are going to go edge rusher at 15 in the first round. I would strongly consider that they do, but I think that it's quite possible that they even trade back in maybe four, five, six spots, depending on who's available to trade with and who will be a willing partner. But I still think they can get a heck of a good guy out of this group, even there, even in the early 20s for sure.

Even in the second round, like Derek Rivers is probably going to be available in that late first, early second, mid second area because he's from a small school and he's coming from health concerns. He, he had a, he battled seizures when he was growing up and so he has to take medication for today. So you never know how teams are going to react to something like that, even though he's had no problems since he's started playing football.

But that's the type of guy that if you guys could get, maybe trade up a couple of spots in the second round to get, that would be a home run. Yeah, I agree. And that's the thing. There are so many different takes on everything. And a lot of the stuff we don't even know about yet. And that's the thing.

That's how you end up seeing guys sliding up and down boards just like mad. But thanks, man, for joining me. It was excellent to get your insight on this group. Uh, definitely been looking forward to getting it for some time now. Great to be able to link up and have you on the show. Uh, definitely appreciate it. Make sure you guys are getting out there and following John owning on Twitter at John owning John. Is there anything else you wanted to plug my guy? Nope. Check out fan reg sports.com for the best football coverage. Besides that, appreciate you bringing me on.

Had a lot of fun. Absolutely, man. Thank you guys for listening. Make sure you guys are getting out there rating and reviewing the show. Get at me on Twitter at mdanley__nfl or get the show on Twitter as well at LockedOnColts. Hit me up on the email at LockedOnColtsPod at gmail.com. Thank you guys for joining me again. We will talk to you all on Monday right here on LockedOnColtsPod at gmail.com. And thank you guys for joining me again.

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