Locked On Colts - Daily Podcast On The Indianapolis Colts - LOCKED ON COLTS -5/3- Deep Dive on Colts Draft Class W/@EliotCrist

Episode Date: May 3, 2017

Eliot Crist (NDT Scouting, Pro Football Focus) joins Matt to take a deep dive on the #Colts draft class, looking at strengths and weaknesses of each as well as what to expect and what not to in their rookie seasons. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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No, I'm not for sale. You are locked on Colts, your daily Indianapolis Colts podcast. Part of the Locked On Podcast Network, your team every day. Welcome back to Locked On Colts, ladies and gentlemen. I'm your host, Matt Dainley. And thank you guys for joining me again tonight. And today we have a fantastic guest with us today, Elliot Crist of NDT Scouting and Pro Football Focus. What's going on, Elliot? How you doing tonight, man?

Nothing much, man. Just still basking in the glory of NFL Draft Weekend. Trying to get some recaps done and looking at all the fits. Good to have you on. We're going to break down the Colts draft hall this year and kind of, you know, kind of sift our way through it a little bit and see if we can't dig heard us go through this draft class a few times over already. But Elliot, I love some of your perspective on this. And this is kind of why I asked you to come on the show, just because a new set of eyes and another opinion on these guys is always a wonderful thing to talk about. So we'll just start obviously with Malik Hooker, the first round pick of the Colts at safety there from Ohio State. What were some things that you initially thought of the pick as it happened?

So I thought this was kind of the right range. I didn't have Hooker as a top five guy like everybody else. I had a second round grade on him, but I saw his ceiling is so high. He's the kind of guy, kind of that 15 to 20, 25 range is where I would like to see him go. I really like the fit in Indianapolis. Chuck Dono comes from the Ravens that likes to have a single high safety, and he can really use his ball skills and center field skills to the Colts' advantage on defense. They really need that guy that can force turnovers and get the ball back in Andrew Luck's hands, and Hooker has that ability.

Now, Hooker also comes with some issues in his game, and there are going to be some growing pains. He really struggled against the run, not just his tackles, where he missed 24.9% of his tackles, according to PFF, but his run angles are pretty atrocious. There are some that look good, and one of the things I noticed on tape was a lot of them that look good seem to be schemed, where he was coming up before the play was happening,

and he was set up before the play was happening, and he was set up to kind of be in that spot. When he had to come up on his own, he missed a lot of tackles or was just in a bad position that allowed big runs. One of the runs that stands out to me was against Wisconsin, where Corey Clement broke like a 60-yard run. And, you know, if Hooker took a better angle, it's like a 3- or 4-yard run, but instead it's a 60-yard run. Yeah, he breakser took a better angle it's like a three or four yard run but instead it's a 60 yard run yeah he breaks his head a lot too i mean uh i noticed that a lot when watching his film that that that's something that is really i mean not only is it scary because the guy's got

notable injury history as well but i mean when you look at like you said the the missed tackles and and not even i mean even when he's coming in up you said, the missed tackles and not even, I mean, even when he's coming up for an assist, he's just kind of throwing his body in the direction of the ball carrier. Yeah, and he's going to be the last line of defense. So you kind of want a guy that tries to wrap up. Like, safeties are going to miss tackles. I just thought he missed too many, and his angles were left a lot to be desired.

The other interesting thing with Hooker is that he comes from a Ohio State defense where he played with two first-round corners in Conley and Lattimore, and his offensive line, sorry, his defensive line, both ends are supposed to be first-round picks next year. It's a loaded defensive team going up against not the best offenses in college football. And I feel like some of the things he did looked better because of the players he played with. And the Colts, you know, Vontae Davis and Quincy Wilson are going to have to hold their own for him to kind of have that smooth transition as a center fielder.

He only played one year, so while he's got incredible range, I don't want to not address that. His range is special. And that's why he gets the Ed Reed comparisons, because of his range and ball skills. But he can be manipulated pre-snap by NFL quarterbacks, play action, all that stuff. He can take a misstep, and he's going to be out of place on a couple plays. But if the Colts are patient with him, he's got an incredibly high ceiling.

So let me ask you this. Do you think that a lot of his perceived range here, one way that I can attribute it to is a defensive end or something that's lined up on the line of scrimmage that is perceived to have really high upfield burst, but it's all because of timing on the snap, as far as that goes, you know what I'm saying as opposed to just little legitimate physical aspects of it do you think that his is just playing against some of these college quarterbacks that really i mean a large percentage of them are not going to be nfl caliber quarterbacks but that he he is kind of taking advantage of the fact that they aren't able to manipulate him in any way shape or form and that he's kind of just uh out there for that they aren't able to manipulate him in any way, shape, or form, and that he's kind of just out there for the pickings. Not to mention he was on a really good defense, like you said, and that kind of covers up some of the warts of if he was to get himself

out of position. Right. I don't think it's everything, but I think it's a part of it. I think he is a special athlete, and the one play that made me feel a lot better about it was the playoff game against Deshaun Watson, where he read and reacted and sprinted back there and caught the interception on Watson when he targeted Renfro.

I just think that he's going to have some growing pains. But if he stays healthy, he went to a good spot for him to develop. I just wouldn't expect him to be like this all-pro, pro-bowl level safety for at least two or three years as he kind of gets a feel for the game. So let me ask you this. Does it benefit him to have a guy like Clayton Gethers back there, not necessarily back there with him in a two-high, but to have Gathers in a role to where it kind of blankets Hooker or kind of helps him in a way to where Hooker isn't the literal last line of defense, especially against the run, but also in some underneath coverages and stuff like that.

Yeah, I would say that's a huge help. Plus, Gathers can cover tight ends. And I didn't love Hooker in man coverage. Basically, I think this is a ceiling pick, which kind of sums up the entire Colts draft when you look at it. So many of these guys have high ceilings where if they hit it, the Colts could have the best draft of any team in the NFL. I think Hooker's floor is the highest of every prospect,

but I think there are definitely holes in his game that got ignored by a lot of the big media members. I would agree. I would agree with that. I really like the pick a lot, and I think I gave it a B+. I mean, I hate the grading part of it, but that's part of, you know, uh, nobody wants to hear good or very good. They want a letter grade to it, to, you know, to actually have it sink into their brain of what they think of what somebody else thinks

of the pick. But I think I gave him the pick of a B plus, uh, The value was good. The player has, like you said, a high floor, but there were definite issues. Like when you look at the injury and the lack of physicality in the running game that are realistic, especially when you get to the NFL level. And that's something that's not just going to be covered up because everybody likes him yeah and the other thing is like he's been compared to Earl Thomas and Ed Reed way too much yeah you know what I mean like the expectations for him right now are through the roof with Ed Reed's arguably the greatest safety ever right and Earl Thomas is arguably the best safety in the NFL right now and those are the two guys that he constantly gets comped to because of his range.

But those guys can also are excellent in the run, are good tacklers and great man corners. They need to be. So I, I think the scary thing for a fan is when you watch hooker, you get all these Ed Reed comparisons and there's going to be growing pains. They're going to be holes in his game. You're like,

where's the Ed Reed guy that we were promised? Right. Yeah. I think that, I think that a lot of that'll come for sure. But I think, like you said, any of these comps, I mean, when I think that, you know, and I don't think that a lot of people understand the comps, uh, to be honest with you. I think when somebody, uh, says that either they need to be a lot more clear

with what they mean by it, or they're just, you know, or people need to be a little more reserved about what they think they're hearing. Because when I hear someone say comp, to me that tells me style of play, not always what kind of a player they are. Ed Reed, oh my God, he's going to be the best in the game. That's not what they mean by comp. They mean that his style of game is similar. And I think that people read way too much into that. Oh no, I agree. I think comps are one of the dumber things.

Because you're basically trying to compare a trait, like you said. But people get carried away with them. People get really excited because there are a lot of people that follow the draft that don't watch a whole lot of college football, and they just want a name that they know, and then they start associating that player with this other player. That's how we get guys that are perceived busts, even when they have good careers,

just because they didn't live up to those common comps. I agree. I agree. So let's move on to Quincy Wilson, the Colts' second-round pick, cornerback out of Florida. I think I felt a little similar to the hooker pick on this one. In fact, I gave it a little better grade because I felt like Wilson was a legit first round corner just from kind of my untrained eye or whatever. But I felt that his man skills were good

his instincts were good his ball skills are really good his athleticism size and length and everything else that comes with it so like you said i mean the traits that he possesses are things that are imperative in the colts scheme currently and if there's anything that he needs to be coached up on i kind of think that there's a pretty good uh to be coached up on. I kind of think that there's a pretty good group to coach him up on there. There's no personal issues with this guy or anything like that. It's just simply coaching up the intricacies of the game. But I really loved this pick. I thought, like I said, I thought that they got him at fantastic value here. And this is a great move, in my opinion, for the future. What were your thoughts? So I agree with you that I really like where he went.

So I thought he was an early second-round talent. I thought there were a lot of people talking about him as a top-ten overall pick. I didn't see that with his film. That seems high. Like Hooker, though, his ceiling, man. You're going to hear me say that basically on all these picks. Not to sound like a broken record,

but Ballard clearly saw the upside in a lot of these guys. I really like him in cover three, too. When he drops and has his eyes on the quarterback, I think he's got great range and great feel for receivers. There was one play against Missouri where he actually had two guys in his zone, was on one, and faded back, had a feel as Missouri's quarterback threw the ball, and he goes out back and makes an interception, which was fantastic. He's a solid tackler. He's got good press technique. The thing I worry about him in press is he got beat across his face a lot.

And when he got beat, he didn't recover necessarily very quickly. He was the number two corner behind Tease Tabor. But his physicality, his size and length, ball skills, they're all A-plus traits that you look for out of a corner. And where he went in the second round, that's excellent. On a normal year, he probably goes in the first round, but because of the depth of the corner class, I think you saw

it across the board where Marshawn Lattimore, for example, was considered a top-five guy. And he falls all the way to 11. And it just kind of has a trickle-down effect throughout the course of the draft. I really liked the pick. And if he can hit, if he hits on the opposite side of Bonte Davis, the Colts are in great position, and it'll really help Hooker's development as well.

Yeah, and you know what, there was something, like you said, he got beat across his face quite a bit. I never, I don't want to say never, I rarely saw him manipulate the receiver into going where he wanted them to go. I didn't see him changing, getting a hand on their shoulder to kind of take them off their route and reroute them a little bit or anything like that. Not a lot, but he does have that natural athleticism. And it's not scary, but is the problem with uh some of these like uber athletic guys is that often they rely on their athleticism and a lot of the technical

pieces of their game are what has to be coached at the next level and early so i i couldn't agree more with you and i love that you pointed that out um As a Jets fan, my favorite player ever, we don't have very many good ones, but was Darrell Rivas. And I remember when he was young, he kept talking about technique is everything for a corner. And he would talk about he would push the receiver to where he wants to go. He would use the sideline as his friend. He would understand if there's inside coverage that he can push him towards,

and then the guy's really running into a linebacker, and even if he gets beat inside, he's not open. I would like to see Quincy Wilson do that more. Me too. If you have linebacker help inside, then it's okay if you get beat inside. That's where you want to push

him. If you want to push him outside, push him towards that sideline. The sideline is your best friend. With your size and athleticism, you're going to have a huge advantage if you can use the sideline. That can be taught, and it requires a ton of work ethic, willingness to learn. If he gets that aspect of his game, his ceiling is incredibly high. I agree.

And like you said, but ceiling is where it's at. I mean, that's ultimately what you're trying to find with these picks. You want as close to a sure thing in the first couple rounds, I guess, as you could possibly get. But the idea behind the draft is ultimately to find that two and three year projection for these guys and to hope that they can maintain that throughout the rest of their career. And these are, like you said, two guys with high ceilings, the first two picks, and these guys are guys that are definitely going to be relied upon to kind of change the coverage culture in Indianapolis

because it's been pretty terrible the past several years. So I'm just very hopeful with the size of Wilson, over 6'2", 10. You couldn't ask for a better-sized guy with the athletic traits and stuff that he has to kind of start this. I mean, the past two seasons, the Colts have been 27th and 24th in pass defense, and that's just inexplicable how that happens. But injuries, poor roster construction, and a lot of other little pieces there accommodate to that. But this is a good step in the right direction to changing that for sure.

I agree. I hope they don't put him on a bunch of speed receivers to start his career. Because I think cornerback, a huge part of it is confidence. I would love for him to match up with the bigger, more physical receivers. Because I think he could struggle off the line with quickness. And like we said, if he gets beat across his face or beat outside, he doesn't recover the best. So going up against elite speed guys may give him a little bit of trouble.

So I would love to see them kind of manage his matchups and try to build his confidence, because if he gets his confidence and technique down early, he could be a top 10 NFL corner. Yeah, and you know what? I agree with you, and that statement's awesome because it allows, if they were to put him on more of a possession-style receiver anyways, that's going to allow his footwork to build and to grow along with everything else that he has. And another thing that you said in there that pointed out is,

Jonah Tolles and I have talked about this several times, but there is such a mentality and a mental aspect to playing cornerback. I don't care at what level and just in general, you have to mentally believe that you can beat the receiver to where he wants to go, knowing that he's the only one between the two of you that knows where he's going to go. Right. Yeah. It's such a huge aspect of football is the mental side of it. I mean,

a great example is the Packers Falcons game last year, where not only was Julio Jones better than those corners, but they all knew it the second they stepped on the field and Julio was just blowing by him every play. And you could tell their confidence was shot, like, dude, I don't know what to do. Like, I can't do it. And the second you believe you can't do it, you're done.

So I think building Quincy Wilson's confidence would be a huge aspect for him. So it helps that he has Vontae Davis on the other side, right, that can trail the best receiver, or he can use his technique against smaller, faster guys. But Quincy Wilson matches up really well within the division if you're looking at a guy like Allen Robinson or a guy like DeAndre Hopkins. I mean, they both have good feet, but they're not that T.Y. Hilton, for example. I mean, obviously he's on the same team.

But even Corey Davis, Corey Davis is fast, but he's not going to be a T.Y. Hilton. So I think he actually matches up really well with the young receivers in the division as well. Yeah, I think a guy like Fuller out of Houston would be a deadly thing because of how quick his feet are, and he can create separation. I mean, Wilson has a lot of speed, but I don't know that he's got fuller speed.

You know, that would be kind of out of control to watch that. That might be a bad matchup to get into his rookie season. So, in the third round, the Colts picked up Terrell Basham with the 80th overall pick. Outside linebacker, defensive end at Ohio. I was absolutely in love with this pick. This was a guy that I had been kind of pining for for months now. I think I probably wrote three or four articles on him at least,

or at least a piece of it had something to do with him. But this guy really jumped out on tape to me. And I think that a lot of people came around for sure on him. And they really started seeing how explosive he was, how quick his hands were and accurate with his hands, where he really attacks the joints of the offensive lineman that he goes up against. He can be inside or outside, beat you with an inside or outside move. And he, you know, Not a lot of versatility, but the guy lined up as far as in a four-point stance as a true D end a

lot. But even when he was standing up and he was on two feet, that he really was able to continue to showcase his speed and his explosiveness as well. This is a fantastic pick. I mean, the Colts grabbed Jabal Shear. They got John Simon now, a couple guys who are kind of tweeners, if you want to call them, between pass rushers and run stoppers. But Basham definitely adds some pure pass rush, and he's pretty good against the run, too. What were your initial thoughts on him after the pick? That's a tough follow-up right there. He gave a pretty good evaluation.

I loved him. I watched a ton of him. I was a huge Blair Brown guy of Miami, Ohio. Whenever I threw his tape on, I couldn't help but notice Terrell Basham. Another ceiling guy. I mean, his athleticism was fantastic. The week leading up to the draft, or a couple weeks leading up to the draft, you were starting to hear first-round hype about this guy. So, you know, you can make an argument that Colt's got three guys

with first-round talent in this draft. I agree with you that he can line up in a two-point stance or a three-point stance, and that versatility will be excellent. He's got good initial hand use. I would like to see him counter a little bit better at times. Yes, I agree with you that he can line up in a two-point stance or a three-point stance, and that versatility will be excellent. He's got good initial hand use. I would like to see him counter a little bit better at times. Yes, I agree. So basically, I think that his big step is, can he go from his first move to his second move?

You know, like if he's not going to win on his first move in athleticism or, like you said, how he attacks with his hands, can he going to win on his first move in athleticism or his uh like you said how he attacks with his hands can he win more consistently on a second move I think if he does that he's going to be a home run pick yeah that's that's and that's ultimately what it is because I mean how many guys come off the edge and have a clean shot at the quarterback that just doesn't happen in the NFL you've got to have have, you know, his spin move needs some work. He has one, but it needs a lot of work as far as I'm concerned. When you start your spin move on the outside shoulder of the offensive tackle and you're kind of rolling into it,

that's not going to be very successful in the NFL because of the counters of the tackles in this league, a lot of them. And they're stronger and bigger, and they have better technique, and that's just not going to be that successful. So he naturally has some refinement that needs to be done. And like you said, another ceiling pick. I just love this guy's initial possibilities, though, as a guy that can really be – he's almost a guy who has deceptive speed because you see his size and you see kind of his power where he can basically bull rush people too.

And I think that he's going to actually have some success in that regard as well. And I just think – now, I honestly hate saying this, Elliot, I really do. But there was somebody at work the other day that asked me what my thoughts were him and then asked me to comp him. And I'm like, I'm not going to comp him. But this guy doesn't know a ton. So I told him, here's what you need to know. He's got the ferocity that you saw from Robert Mathis in his first five years in his prime, but he's got the potential to have the speed and the electricity that Freeney had with his spin move and his really snappy hands to be able to beat offensive linemen. And that was the best way I could make it clear to him of kind of what I saw in him,

but with probably two of the worst comps I've ever done in my life. So one other thing that I think he has the ability to do that Freeney and Mathis, certainly Mathis, didn't, was he actually set a pretty strong edge. He would take good angles. He would be a good tackler. So he's not just a situational pass rusher. He could start from day one. The other big question with him, of course, is coming from Ohio University,

he's going to take a major step up in competition. The Colts have had good success with that in the past with a guy like T.Y. Hilton, for example. But that's always something where you're like, well, he's a dominant athlete that dominated his level of competition. But taking that huge step may allow for some growing pains. Yeah, I agree. I think that we saw enough of his athleticism and his overall skill set that it's going to be something that he'll pair up nicely with the existing pieces. Granted, this reagent class was

really interesting to say the least, but with a guy like Sheard and Simon and some of the inside linebackers with Hankins there at the Zero Tech now, that it really is exciting to think about the possibilities of it, I guess. I just hope that there's enough of it and that there's a bunch of guys playing to their strengths throughout the season and that, what am I trying to say, that Pagano puts everybody, I guess, in the best possible scenario to succeed. Because ultimately, as this team goes, you know, you saw Basham play against a couple teams that were, you know, pretty decent. I mean, he got some action against Tennessee, Kansas, which, you know, you can say what you want about that, but Toledo, Buffalo,

Central Michigan, not the biggest, you know, craziest schedule, but a lot of these teams have quality NFL players come from them, just not typically along the offensive line very often. And that's kind of something that is the real kicker with that. But if these guys can all play to their strengths and play effectively as a cohesive unit, Basham stands to possibly get up to, I would say, seven to ten sacks. And don't get me wrong that's uh an extremely high mark but seven to ten sacks for a guy who's probably being undervalued right now or that will be undervalued once the season gets here uh with a unit that can play together cohesively like I said as a front seven effectively then he his his possibilities are really kind of endless at least

uh in my own mind they are. Yeah, no, I think that's fair. I wasn't trying to say that because he comes from a small school that he can't be successful, just that that can increase the learning curve a little bit and take a little bit longer. I do agree that he fits well with what they're doing on their defense. I think quietly they had a really good offseason. I really liked the Sheard pickup and the Hankins pickup I thought was excellent for what they need in

terms of run stuffers. You know, that defense is starting to look a lot better with Wilson Hooker and why did I just blank on his name? I'm not sure we're talking about him. Sorry about that, Basham. That was a senior moment right there. I really like that they recognize that this defense needs a lot of work, and they went all in on free agency and the draft with, you know, picking up a potential five impact starters in an offseason is a really good job. Yeah, I agree. So let's kind of move on to the fourth round pick at 137.

The Colts grabbed Zach Banner out of USC in offensive tackle. I'm not extremely excited about this pick on the surface because I felt like for the first pick in the fourth round, their first pick in the fourth round, I guess, I thought that they should have tried to go a little more upside as opposed to a guy who's an obvious project at the position. I don't mind that a lot of people from the outside looking in think that the Colts really need offensive line like virtually every draft just because they do. I think Grigson actually did a good job of getting some quality linemen last year.

I mean, there's not much you can say good about Grigson actually did a good job of getting some quality linemen last year. I mean, there's not much you can say good about Grigson, but you can say that he definitely tried to put the Colts in a pretty decent position by addressing the offensive line hardcore in the draft last year. Zach Banner, huge dude, 6'8", like 350. I think he's hovering right around 350 pounds right now. He's lost some weight, so that's nice because he's extremely slow in both protection and in the run game. But he just wasn't a guy that had enough upside for me

for what was left on the board. And I'm not talking about at the position. I'm talking about in general, to be quite honest, for them to grab him there. Did you have any – I mean, I thought that they could have gone guard with, you know, Isaac Asiata or Jordan Morgan or Jermaine Illuminor. Not that those guys are all like not getting, you know, picks that would be knocked out of the park or anything like that, but I just thought that they were better value for that pick in the fourth round when you could get a project like Banner, in my opinion, probably you could have switched the Marlon Mack and the Zach Banner picks or even further into the fifth round with Banner, in my opinion, and still put him on the roster and probably gotten somebody a little bit better value for that first fourth-round pick. Yeah, no, that's a good point.

I loved your point about the Colts and how their offensive line is not as bad as people think it is, especially the left side. I mean, Costanzo, Mewhart, and Kelly are a real good left side. The right side of the line leaves a lot to be desired. But before I talk about Banner, I just need to point out the fact that the Colts had an orangutan picking players, and that was amazing. Yeah. I thought you were going to blame that on the banner pick. No.

I mean, the orangutan might be the only thing on the planet that weighs more than banner. Oh, man. But we got to see an orangutan drink out of a juice box. So I appreciate the Colts forever. Mike Mayock wasn't quite so happy with it. Which is what made it that much better that they had to continue to go to it because Rich Eisen, after doing this for like eight straight hours, was losing his mind with happiness.

He was too. Boy, Banner is raw. He's, too. Boy, Banner is raw. He's huge. I think that's the thing. I was shocked when they announced him as an offensive guard because he would be the biggest offensive guard at 6'8", 350, ever. That's what

some of the guys were saying. I think he would be a developmental right tackle. His whole thing is once he gets his hands on you, he's so strong that you don't really go anywhere. But his feet are slow. He can overextend. He can get in bad positions.

I think a lot of what you said is true. Unlike the rest of the draft, I don't necessarily know if he's a high upside guy. Because of his size and his his limit his limits with his lateral quickness and ability to get his hands on people consistently he's gonna miss some blocks right um they'd have to really protect him right exactly with a lot of moving tight ends like they'd have to use literally one of the tight ends as an H-back pretty consistently as far as I'm concerned, especially when you're up against guys with strong edges.

Oh, yeah, no, I would agree. They would probably need someone to chip an edge or something like that so Banner can get in position to actually get his hands on him. But Banner's whole thing is once he gets his hands on you, you can't really go anywhere just because he's so massive. I hate to just talk about a player's size, but when it comes to Banner, that's kind of what he is. He's exactly what you expect a 6'8", 350-pound offensive lineman as a late-round pick to be, just kind of pure strength, slower feet, kind of will be, will miss some blocks. He's going to really struggle with a speed rusher, I would think.

Oh, yeah. Like. I would say that he's vulnerable to either move, too, and that's kind of the thing that worries me is a lot of these offensive tackles when they come in, they seem to either be a little slow to get out, like they don't want to overextend themselves so they don't get beat inside. And then they'll basically kind of put themselves in a hole as far as trying to keep the integrity of the pocket by getting the edge rusher as far outside as they can. But he kind of just sets up and it seems like there's an equal gap on either side of him where any creative pass rusher is going to have a field

day with him. And granted, we're not going to see him this year on the field as far as I'm concerned at all. And I don't know that he would, I don't know that he'll even make the roster at this point. And I think that's what kind of worries me. And I think that I would feel better about what I'm seeing or saying if that was a fifth-round pick at the point. But this is the first fourth-round pick that the Colts had. And it just, to me, didn't seem like there was not only much upside to it, but if there is some upside to it, I mean, you need a couple years for that to develop and not have such restrictions on this guy going forward.

When I look at the fourth round and later, I want a guy that I know is going to do one thing really well and can develop the rest of his game possibly, but be able to put him in one position to do things really well. You can't really do that at offensive line. You can't just say, well, we're only going to play you when we need you to run block. That's not going to work. But the other thing that's concerning with Banner is that he had procedures on both hips.

I didn't know that. Yeah. So you worry about someone at that size with two hip injuries with, you know, slow feet to begin with needing two years to develop. I'm kind of with you when they, when they said Banner's name, I thought it was really early. Yeah. Just, I don't know that, that now that even makes me a little more skeptical and worried about it. I don't want to talk about, about the guy. I mean, he, he seems like a guy who's really excited to get started, a guy who's got a ton of the right qualities that you want, and a guy who's going to come in and work his tail off every day and all that. But I think maybe it's just the value that really bothers me as far as that.

Like, I'm not opposed to the Colts going offensive line because I'm not going to pretend that the Colts have an offensive line that is stellar. But I do think that they've got some pieces in place right now to where they can really build on that. I was in love with the way LaRaven Clark came around after watching him in the preseason last year. And then you watch him when he comes in and plays in the last three or four games of the season in relief because of some injuries. But the Colts, you know, at right tackle, you know, it's not set in stone, that's for sure. But when you look at a guy like Costanzo, who I think that people vastly underrate, I think that he's not the best.

He's not a top five offensive tackle, left tackle in the league, but he's in the top 10 to 15, I would think, just on play and knowledge of the game and knowledge and really what he does. And people don't realize how terrible the offensive line would be without him. That's just something that people completely overlook when he has a bad game and they just want to throw him to the wolves. But the Colts, I think the Colts legitimately need a guy that can eventually step into his place there because he's been so healthy. We don't even know if the Colts have a guy that can go in there if he gets hurt.

Yeah, to your point, Costanzo rated as the 20th best tackle in the NFL last year, both left and right tackles combined, and earned an 84.2 grade from PFF. It's actually his second 84.2 grade exactly in the last two years. So he's been a very consistent player. He played every game last year. I don't think Banner projects as someone that could ever be a left tackle. Yeah. Do you see that much of a difference between left and right tackle as far as

like skill sets needed to be able to succeed at either? No, but I just think a lot of it's, it's almost one of those. Sometimes teams get hardheaded and want their true pass rusher on the, sorry, pass protector on the left side and run blocker on the right side. I just think that's like the old school style of thinking. But with the way teams move, Ed Rusher is around now. I think you need both tackle positions to be strong. I was kind of wondering that because I don't really have an opinion on that, but I wanted to ask you to see if you did. Let's move on to the Colts next fourth round pick

and Marlon Mack here running back from South Florida. This was another great pick. In fact, I was at Jake Arthur's house watching this and we basically gave each other a high five on this because this guy's got so much like you, you know, you said this is going to be a common theme about this talk is, is the upside, the ceiling of these guys, a lot of them. And his speed, his ability to break big runs, he's got the requisite power. He can catch the ball out of the backfield, although he didn't do it a ton. But I think that the one knock on him, as far as from what I saw of his tape,

was probably his pass protection. His pass protection leaves a lot to be desired. The way I describe Marlon Mack is, remember when pinball was like a big thing? Yes. You would shoot a pinball, and sometimes it would hit everything, and you'd get all the points, and other times it would go straight to the gutter.

But there's really no way to ever know which one's going to happen. That's how I felt when I watched Marlon Mack play football, where some plays you're like, this guy is incredible. His athleticism is off the charts. He's a really good athlete. I question his vision sometimes. I think he'll have, he's a home run hitter. I don't think he wants a single or a double.

I've seen him have runs where he has five yards already and would probably end up with like a 10-yard run, cut back around a wide receiver and end up losing two yards. I think getting mentored by Frank Gore is one of the best things that could happen to him because, you know, Frank Gore is Mr. Fundamental. Very north and south. Right. And if you can get Mack to do that, he could be special.

So, like you said, it's a huge ceiling pick again. And I really like that in the fourth round, kind of what you can get out of Marlon Mack. The pass catching, when he gets in the open field, man, he's gone. Like, if you can get him in situations and he's in space, he's going to bring a whole new dimension to the Colts offense. If you run him in routes and he's near players, I noticed that he alligator arms the ball at times.

He's not a guy who's, he's not a natural pass catcher, that's for sure. Yeah, they split him out wide, but it was a very basic route tree. That's the other thing I noticed about him is they were very basic routes. But he has the athleticism, lateral quickness to develop that. So I think learning from a guy like Gore, not needing to play a ton his rookie year, but kind of get him in situations where he can hit home runs, he could really develop into a workhorse back year two or three if he develops his football IQ. So let me ask you this. I mean, he averaged about 14.5 carries in his senior year,

and I think that was pretty much his overall average throughout his career there. Do you see that as an issue? I mean, I guess, did you see something that would lead you to see that that's an issue with him becoming a 20-touch-a-guy game in the NFL? Or do you think that when you're watching his film that it was more of just a product of the scheme that he was in at USF? Yeah, I think he's got so many big runs, and USF runs their offense so quickly that sometimes sometimes his 10 yard runs, he runs 30 yards because he's going everywhere. That it's almost like a disadvantage to him if you make him do that three plays in a row,

you know what I'm saying? Because he's going to be shot. So, um, I think he can get about, I think 20 touches would probably be as much as I want to get him. Maybe 15 rushes, five catches. But in the NFL today, every team's got two backs. So if you need another back to take seven carries or touches from him, I think he can be the number one back.

When I say workhorse, I kind of mean number one back, not necessarily what the Jaguars are going to try to do with Fournette and give him the ball 30 times a game. But I think he can be a huge weapon for a team. That was the first thing that popped in my head when I actually watched him was that I don't think he necessarily has to just be a running back. I think you can put him in the slot if you develop his route tree. I think you can get him on reverses.

You could even have him as a kick returner. I think his open field ability is something that the Colts should be creative in trying to get taken advantage of. Yeah, and I've said this recently, but as far as for the conversation, it's pertinent. One of the things that I noticed with the Colts' offense last year is there was, at least last year, there was so much of their production

came from inside the 25-yard line, the opponent's 25-yard line. And so much of that, the rest of the other 75 yards of the field was kind of hit or miss a little bit, and they really didn't have any big plays to, not too many, big plays outside of that 25-yard line. I mean, virtually all of, and in fact, not virtually, absolutely all of Moncrief's touchdowns were from inside the 25-yard line. Gore and Turbin, I don't think that they had a single touchdown outside of the 25-yard line in the passing game at least. And I'm not even sure that they had one outside of the 25-yard line rushing the ball

either. But that was something that I was kind of trying to get a feel for like, is Aiken going to be the guy who can kind of open that up a little bit or help open up the offense? Because other than T.Y. Hilton, it didn't seem like they had much of an, much of a weapon outside of there. But when like going through the entire thing, the one thing I found out is the thing that I didn't necessarily expect to was that a home run hitting running back, a guy who can really grind but has that potential to rip off those big 40-yard runs or catches in space and just burn the defense, is a running back for this offense. I mean, a playmaker in this offense could really set it ablaze. Yeah, no, I agree with you. I mean, I think that's what they wanted out of Dorsett,

but he kind of really hasn't developed into that. To piggyback off what you were just saying about the deep passes outside of T.Y. Hillen, a few stats on deep passes from PFF. So a deep pass is considered anything over 20 yards. Hilton led the team with targets with 33 and caught 17 of his 33 targets. No one else on the team had more than 14, which was Dorsett. Moncrief had 11. Rodgers had 8.

Rodgers actually caught 6 of his 8 deep targets. Moncrief only caught three. So your point is valid that, you know, outside of Hilton, they didn't have a whole lot of big plays. No, and not only that, I mean, and even 26-yard touchdowns, there wasn't very many, you know. I mean, just even like, I mean, literally take a yard back and the production is gone or largely gone anyways.

So I'm excited for this move. I really am. Like you said, mentoring under Frank Gore is, I think, going to be vital to Marlon Mack's growth. I think he'll have a nice role in this offense this year. But I think that second and third year projection for this guy, you really want to see him completely take the reins, and you want to see him be a weapon for Andrew Luck

in this offense, and Rob Chudzinski is a nice play designer when he's got some weapons to use, and I'm really kind of looking forward to that possibly in 2018 if he's still the offensive coordinator. Of course, a lot with a new GM is left to be determined for next year. Or, well, not next year, not this coming year, but in 2018. And so that's something that is neither confirmed or denied, more or less. But with the right offensive coordinator, and put it that way, he could really present a lot of exciting possibilities, and I'm really looking forward to his second year,

and hopefully he can rip off a few of those in his rookie year as well. Now, the final three picks for the Colts were Grover Stewart, a defensive tackle out of Albany State, Nate Hairston, a corner out of Temple, who has only played two years at corner. Anthony Walker Jr., the linebacker out of Northwestern. By and large, as far as that, you know, I hear, I've heard a ton of great stuff about Nate Hairston. I think he's a guy who can

possibly really help out with that slot role and kind of give it some diversity with a couple guys because now with the hooker draft you kind of wonder where is Darius Butler actually going to fit is he going to be kind of a journeyman across this defense or is he going to have a defined role in some way shape or form but I think a great guy to model himself after is Butler in his prime for Nate Hairston. I think Hairston has a lot of upside, and from everything I've heard, he's just a working guy. He's a great athlete, 35 and a half vertical at his pro day.

Not the most impressive 40 time, but apparently this guy has like, he's just a worker bee considerably. Grover Stewart was a guy that, like I said, Albany State, a D2 guy, doesn't have, he relies a lot on his length and his power, and he's got a long way to go as far as I'm concerned, but he is a big dude, 6'5", 295. He has some straight line speed, but his off-the-ball burst, as far as I'm concerned, leaves a lot to be desired. He was just dominating Division II talent where he was at. I wouldn't even say dominating. He was beating up on those guys a little bit. I think that's why those people that are seeing him think that there's so much to look forward to. I think actually when you look at it, and somebody asked about if he was a predecessor to Zach Kerr, and I really didn't think that he was even on the level of Zach Kerr coming out as a prospect,

as far as that goes, when he came out of Maryland. A lot of people are high on Anthony Walker Jr. I'm not. I didn't see anything out of him necessarily that got me excited. I'll put it that way. I think he, too, is a project, which it's their last pick. I'm fine with that. That's a project.

That's okay. Like I said, I wanted more value out of some of those earlier picks. I thought there was even a couple developmental edge guys that were still there that could learn their craft a little bit quicker. But do you have any takes on these last three guys that were pulled in with the Colts draft class recently? So I'm not going to pretend that I watched Grover Stewart. D2, defensive tackles weren't exactly high on my watch list. But, you know, at 6'4", 334,

I think you're kind of looking for a guy that can hopefully be a two-down run stuffer that develops into somebody. I like that Hairston played some receiver beforehand. Me too. I think that always helps. I was talking to a player a while back who played running back, and now he was a corner. And he was telling me about, you know,

different positions bring not only different football IQ, but different philosophies. So, like, he was talking about a lot of corners I like to tackle, but as a running back, he developed, you know, the desire to hit people. And he translates that to his game as a corner. I think Harrison's ability to play wide receiver will really help him with his understanding of a route tree, for example. I know Sherman's talked about that a lot.

I know he played some wide receiver at Stanford, and a lot of corners have talked about that that helps him. It also probably means that he's got good ball skills. I think that was one of the things that they talked most highly about him is his ball skills as well. The thing that I also know is apparently that he's going to be a good special teams player. So anytime you've got a guy in the fifth round that can contribute on special teams, it really helps his opportunity to develop because they want to keep him around more

because they know he's actually going to help them on the field year one. Anthony Walker is a guy that I think his production and name value is what gets people excited. I think he's one of those guys that we've heard about a lot. Whenever you watch Northwestern, he was talked about on the defense. He had a lot of tackles. I thought he had limited range, sideline to sideline.

I don't necessarily know if I want him in coverage man-to-man. I just kind of think he was a great college linebacker that's going to be a backup NFL player.

That's kind of the vibe I be a backup NFL player. Yeah. It's kind of the vibe I got when I watched him. Yeah, me too. And the thing that worries me about him is that there's, you know, production picks don't work out or haven't worked out in the past for the Colts. When you look at trait guys, you know, those are the ones that, you know, if the production, you know, he's got a ton of tackles, man.

The guy, 225 tackles over the past two seasons. And that is like, oh, wow, that is a ton in college. And that is a ton in college. But his production and his tape do not jive for me. And they did not jive. And I think a lot of people are seeing what they want to see, picking out the gifts that they want to show. you know look at the whole thing look at it holistically because it just doesn't uh nothing about that screams this guy's a 100 tackle uh

linebacker a year in the NFL and I I just I didn't see it I didn't see his coverage ability I didn't see it. I didn't see his coverage ability. I didn't see the smarts and the play recognition that other people were trying to pass off on him. I just saw him get confused a lot and way too much, to be quite honest with you. And he was a good linebacker in college, like you said. The production was there as far as the tackle numbers, the forced fumbles. That's something that he's very good at. Apparently four or five forced fumbles last year alone. So that holds some special teams' contribution to it, and that's fine.

I just have a hard time seeing this guy honestly make the roster, to be quite honest with you, in his rookie year. I'd be surprised if he didn't make the roster just based on the fact that teams like to keep their draft picks um especially fifth round or higher but i don't necessarily disagree with anything you just said in terms of your analysis i think one thing one important thing you pointed out there um that's not related to walker but just in general is that twitter is great for scouting and and I myself use GIFs all the time. I try to use 10 on a guy and show strengths and weaknesses.

But just because you see two GIFs of a guy making a great play doesn't mean that he's an amazing prospect. It's like watching someone's highlight tape and just saying, wow, this guy makes a ton of plays. I should be able to take any nfl prospect and go over the course of his season and give you three minutes worth of highlights where you make you think he's a great player um so i think that's a that's a real important point you pointed out there that just because you see a couple gifts online of him making great plays does not necessarily mean that

he has great traits right and it's just something that people need to understand, especially, like you said, with the highlight tapes that are put on YouTube. If it's not every play that the guy took a snap on that year, then just remember you're missing some stuff too. I mean, take that at least into consideration when you're trying to get a jive on a prospect, for sure. Elliot, is there anything that you wanted to kind of close with or anything tonight, anything that you wanted to pump from yourself, anything that you're doing? I mean, I'm just coming out with new pieces on NDT scouting every day. I'm going to come out with

my top offensive rookie of the year candidatesensive Rookie of the Year candidates and Defensive Rookie of the Year candidates this year. I mean, it's a little early, but it's always fun to try to think about not just who had the best drafts, but whose draft picks can have the biggest year one impact. NET Scouting in general, we're coming out with three, four articles a day between all of us of content. All my stuff is also on Twitter. You can follow me at Elliot Christ. But for the most part, I just want to say thank you for having me on.

I had a great time talking Colts. Yeah, me too, man. Thank you for joining me. This was a lot of fun for me. Big fan of your work at NDT Scouting especially. That's, you know, great company with Kyle and Joe and now John Ledyard as well. And you guys have a nice little team building over there and you guys are really putting out fantastic stuff. It's a lot of fun to follow. Make sure you guys are checking them out. In fact, follow all those

guys as well as Elliot because they're all doing fantastic work. Take a look at their stuff because, I mean, it's not the typical, you know, 200 words strength and weaknesses piece. These guys are diving in hardcore, and Elliot's as good as any of them. And, yeah, I really appreciate your work and really a big fan of your work, Elliot. Thanks for joining me tonight, man. Thank you. Thank you.

That means a lot to me. It really does. Thank you. Absolutely. Thank you guys all for joining us tonight. We had a lot of fun. I hope you guys enjoyed the conversation as well. Get yourselves on iTunes, give us a rating and review. It's helping a lot. Those things are building on every single day, following every single episode, and we're hitting new highs every single day as well. So thank you guys for that. Other than that, like I said, we've got some stuff in the works here for the show. We've got some, uh, other interviews that I'm really trying to, to get out. Of course, there's a little bit of red tape with some of these. So I'm hoping to, to fight through that, but, uh, trying to give

you guys the best interviews with, uh, some of the greatest people, uh, that are doing great work. So thank you guys for joining us again tonight. And we'll check y'all out tomorrow, right here on Locked On Colts. You are Locked On Colts, your daily podcast on the Indianapolis Colts, part of the Locked On Podcast Network, your team every day. Napa Know How. It takes a lot to get excited about a bag,

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