Locked On Penguins - Daily Podcast On The Pittsburgh Penguins - Can the Penguins salvage this relationship with Evgeni Malkin? Josh Yohe returns to the show...

Episode Date: July 12, 2022

As promised, Josh Yohe of The Athletic joins the show to touch on EVERYTHING regarding the Pittsburgh Penguins. The two first chat about Evgeni Malkin (3:00) and if the team and his side can reconvene for a deal, plus how the Malkin camp is truly feeling right now. Josh also touches on how Sidney Crosby is doing his part to try and get Malkin to stay (and he never goes into these negotiations), plus if a four-year term was really offered, and who is to blame in this situation. He goes into the chances that Malkin potentially stays before Hunter & him go into potential replacements. What would a Vince Trocheck contract look like? Is there a way to trade for JT Miller? The two also discuss if the Penguins are close to offloading a defenseman and argue for which one it should be before getting into the Rickard Rakell deal. How fast did that one come together? Is there concern about the term and AAV? What happens if he doesn't play with Crosby? All that, plus a lot of other info is in this episode of the Locked On Penguins podcast.Support Us By Supporting Our Sponsors!Built BarBuilt Bar is a protein bar that tastes like a candy bar. Go to builtbar.com and use promo code “LOCKED15,” and you’ll get 15% off your next order.BetOnlineBetOnline.net has you covered this season with more props, odds and lines than ever before. BetOnline – Where The Game Starts!Rock AutoAmazing selection. Reliably low prices. All the parts your car will ever need. Visit RockAuto.com and tell them Locked On sent you. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hello, Penguins fans. So got a big episode of the Locked on Penguins podcast coming for you all. Today, Josh Yoey of the Athletic is going to come on the show and talk everything regarding this team of getting Malkin, potentially signing Vincent Trocheque, maybe trading for J.T. Miller, the Ricardo-Kell deal. Who else they could go after them for agency? Are they nearing a trade? All of this plus so much more is coming up for today's episode. So let's get right on into it.

Your Locked-on Penguins. Your daily podcast on the Pittsburgh Penguins. Part of the Locked-on Podcast Network. Your team every day. Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Locked-on Penguins podcast. I am your host, Hunter Hodes. We're going to follow me on Twitter at Hunter Hodes. Follow the shows Twitter at L.O. O'Hournersquare Penguins.

Joining me now is Josh Yoey of the athletic and what has just been a ridiculous last week, I should say, for the Penguins franchise. This is, I think, a very pivotal point in this franchise's history. Josh, first off, you know, how hectic has it been for you yesterday and then today going into tomorrow? A little bit going on right now. I was about to go have lunch in Montreal the other day when the Latang News broke. Oh, boy, they got that out of the way.

And then, of course, the draft was pretty wild. Throwing a Casey to Smith contract in there. and now all of the, of getting Malcon drama with some Ricard Raquel and some other things to discuss. I can't possibly imagine what we're going to talk about for the next half hour, Hunter. Oh, yeah, I know, Josh. You know, we can just start that right now, I guess. So, you know, when I saw the breaking news from Darren Dregor, he said the sources sound like, oh, this is probably the deal, right? Because it was getting promising.

Nope, the exact opposite happens. If he got any Malkin wants a test re-agency. And then, Josh, all these conflicting reports come out. Saravali saying that they offered four years. Post-exet saying it's four times six point one. I think you and Robber saying that that never came in or Malkins Camp I think said that they never came in. And then Brian Burke says, oh, we did offer four years.

So it's kind of like a like a just playing around and round here by a rat, basically. You know, who is really telling the truth with this? But first off, Josh, is there a way that these two sides can talk again? you know, maybe let the day play out here, reconvene tonight when, I guess, people are more calm, and then tomorrow they circle back and get something done, or do you think that ship is starting to really sail? I think it's still possible. From what I've been told, I don't have direct communication with Gino, but I know a lot of

people who are really close to him, like, he's pissed. I mean, he feels like he's been completely disrespected, and, you know, he's an emotional guy. If you've seen him play hockey, you know, he's kind of the. the same way off the ice a little bit, right? When he gets upset, he gets upset. And his feelings are hurt right now. And I'm not saying that to make him look like a baby or anything. I get it.

I mean, I do. I mean, there's no question. Crystal Tang has been the priority this offseason for the Penguins. And maybe Brian Rust and Malkin, who's going to be in the Hall of Fame someday, was put on the back burner. He knows it. And then he sees Ricard Raquel and Brian Rust and Chris LaTang getting six-year contracts. and the penguins made it very clear to him.

Their preference was to give him three years. In regards to what you said about the three and four-year reports, here's what we have. We have, and I speak from some inside information here, we have the penguins leaking out information to certain people wanting them to push a certain narrative, and we have Malkins people kind of doing the same, right? That's the way these things go.

Yeah. In one's one everybody to think we offered the guy eight years and $90 million and you say it no and the Malkins people want you to think oh he offered one year for a million dollars what do you want us to do the truth's always in the middle I know this they want to sign him for three years that was always the desire a four-year deal was discussed yesterday but they actually offer him a four-year deal I'm not sure about that they discussed the parameters and what it would look like and he obviously wasn't at all happy with that deal. So what we have now is you and I are recording this. It's what, 3.30 Eastern Conference. Eastern Standard Time. So we have what, you know, 21 hours or whatever until the free agency deadline. There's still time. And just because we get to noon tomorrow doesn't mean he's gone. We don't know what kind of offers he'll get. We don't know if he'll have a change of heart. We don't know if the penguins will sign somebody at 1201 or not. So a lot of things can still happen here. I just wrote an article, incidentally, if you're looking for some hope, for some Gino hope,

I was told this morning by a couple of people that I very much trust that Sidney Crosby has kind of gotten involved in this situation. And that's something he never does. He, you know, you're too young to remember, Hunter. But back in the old days, number 66 and number 68, if they wanted something done, like they would get a coach fired if they wanted. it. They would have one of their friends signed if they wanted. Yager would have one of his countrymen from the check signed if he wanted. Trust me, they had full control and they used it. Sid's not like that.

Sid might have the occasional conversation with Mike Sullivan about who he wants on his line. But that's about as far as it goes with him. He doesn't flex his muscles in the front office very often ever. But from what I've been told, he let Ron Hexel know, hey, I want Gino taken care of. And he also talked with Gino and basically said, hey, you got to settle down let's let's think this through rationally we want you back we need you back in pittsburg um you know how much we love you let's see if we can still make this work um so we'll see i i know malcon has told teammates and people close to him that he's gone um and maybe he is

that would seem if i had to pick one way or the other i'd say that's the most likely outcome at this point um but he is emotional we all know emotional people right sometimes they go nuts on you for a few hours and they settle down and you get a slightly different reaction i think that's what crosbie and the penguins are hoping for um they they want him maybe to settle down and maybe ron hextall to up the offer a little bit and see if they can get it done so i know crosbie hasn't given up hope neither of the penguins but it's still not looking great and i don't think either side comes out of this looking totally unscathed to be honest with you yeah you know that last point especially you know when i was talking on my episode on monday you know i kind of just reamed both sides because it's

just like, you know, it shouldn't have never even came to this. You know, it's 48 hours at that point when he told them that he's going to UFA and today there's really been no movement. You know, this should have been done, what, three, four weeks ago, maybe even longer than that. And the fact that now Cindy Crosby has to finally get involved when you said it, he doesn't usually do that with regards to whoever the general manager is. I think that's just speak to how dire I think the situation is.

And, you know, I know he said numerous times, I think, to it, whether it's you, Rob or other reports, you know, it's him and Gino in this city. And, no, I, I struggle to think about how he will react if he does sign somewhere else. I feel like it's just going to rub him, like, the completely wrong way. And he's just going to be really gutted about it because, you know, I think he sees him as his brother in a way. And, you know, again, it's definitely something that, you know, it should not have come to this. And, you know, I do think Gino has a right to be pitiful. off. I mean, this also goes back to the regular season. I think, Josh, you're extending Jeff

Carter for a couple years, but you're not going to do Evgeny Malkin, and Carter is older than Malkin, which is the weird thing. Brian must, okay, he's still one of your core players. Then you have Casey DeSmith, like, okay, that could have waited because I know the gold tending market is, not what it usually is, but I feel like that could have waited. Letang is, I think he should have been the priority, and that's no disrespect to Gino. So I understand where he's coming from. from with that. But, you know, in terms of the offer, you've been reporting, and I think Elliot Friedman said that this morning in his blog, too, it was in the three times six range. Gina, I think he said that Gina was looking for three times seven. If it really was, this was over a

million dollars or over one year of term, you know, I don't know. I think that kind of puts the organization in a little bit bad of a light there because you're telling me you couldn't come to an agreement based on those two things i i feel like each side was like standing too firm and i just find it hard to believe that there was no middle round well what's interesting is they gave latang rickle and russ all six years yeah you know they didn't want to give them all six years there's no way so they clearly budged with all three of those guys and i realize especially in the case of latang and russ they took less money per year than they could have received on the open market because of the term that they received. But still, the Penguins, they got out of their comfort zone a little bit and gave those guys more years than they wanted to.

So the question then becomes, why wouldn't you do it for the future Hall of Famer, right? And I understand why they didn't give him a new deal back in. You referenced the Carter contract. That was the road trip, Malkin came back from the knee injury. I understand them wanting to see how he looked for a while before they just threw money at him. I get that. And as for the Carter deal, like it looks terrible now. At the time, it didn't necessarily because Carter, at the end of his first season with the penguins in the first three months of last season, he was awesome.

He was playing well. I will say that. He's at a 40-gold pace. It was like, three and a half million, whatever, sure. For that point on, he struggled. So, yeah, that makes that deal that much worse. But yes, they've had, the penguins were eliminated. on May 15th. This is July 12. It's been two months, which all goes back to, you know,

the point I actually tweeted about last night. And I'm not inside of Ron Hextall or Brian Burke's minds. I frankly, I don't know either one of them that well. They're not Jim Rutherford. They don't, especially Hextall. You're not going to tell you what he thinks. But it seems to me, if they really wanted Malkin back that badly, wouldn't they have compromised a little bit the way they did for Rust and La Tang. It just seems off to me. And it makes me think, like, how badly do they want him back? What is their plan B?

And, you know, Burke's given interviews today the day before free agency, which you don't typically see from team officials. It almost feels like a little bit of damage control. And, you know, Hextall at the draft last week, we asked him about the contracts. They said, oh, Latang, that should be done soon. and we think it can be done with more Montreal and it was. And we asked him about Malkin.

I mean, I'm not a body language expert. He got uncomfortable. Like, you got the sense that, yeah, we're not very close to Gino. This might not happen. And I can tell you, Hunter, I've talked with a couple of agents around the league. This was two or three weeks ago. And one agent literally called me and said, you know, I talk with Hextall a lot. And he led me to believe this deal's not going to get done with Gino.

know like this agent said I was really surprised I said really and then another agent told me I don't think Chino and Pittsburgh is necessarily going to get done I I wrote about it at the time like you know I'm kind of hearing from people that this you know most people assume this would get done at some point now we're to the point where Malkin's feelings are hurt he could become a free agent in 21 hours and what does Malkin do now if he hasn't signed at noon tomorrow and if you're in Malkin's shoes and the Colorado Avalanche call you and say, listen, we can't give you a long-term deal. We'll give you $7 million for this year, though,

if you want to come play behind McKinnon. That'd be a hard thing to turn down, wouldn't it? It would. Yeah. I wouldn't blame him. I get it. I mean, he doesn't want to leave. I promise you, he's never wanted to leave.

He has always wanted to stay. And it's easy to say, well, you know, Gino said I'm a really rich guy and now he's not signing the deal. I don't think it's about the money. I think his feelings are hurt. I think his pride is wounded. I think he feels like Hextel and Burke haven't really shown him a whole lot of respect. And again, I don't know if that's true or not.

We're not in the negotiations. I'm just telling people how Malkin feels. And I think it's pretty obvious that he, you know, he's hurt. He really is. And this is now a very real possibility that he plays elsewhere next season. And my God, what a sight that would be for Penguins fans, no matter where he would end up, especially. I'm 40.

God forbid it's a New York. Or where you live. Yeah. Yes. No, I mean, Washington would seem a possibility. I don't know. But I was thinking about this. I'm 42.

I'm an old guy. But for the younger Penguins fans, like I would say fans between like 20 and 35, whatever, in that range, like that generation has grown up with Sid and Gino. So this is going to be like a really traumatic thing for people. if Malkin leaves, the only penguin's hockey they've ever known has always centered around those two guys. And it's funny, yesterday's news, I saw this.

It was the 20, I believe it was the 21st anniversary of what happened with Yager, if I'm afraid, right? So, of course, that is just a terrible day for Pittsburgh, just a terrible day for Pittsburgh overall. And that was different, too, because in 2001, for those who don't know, the penguins didn't have any money. Mario Lemieux had enough money to buy the team. they were running along okay but back then there wasn't a salary cap there was not p ppg paints arena um they just didn't and yager was making like 10 or 11 million a year at that time which was an enormous amount and they literally just couldn't afford him that's all the dying alive stuff like now they would have made it work out he never really wanted to leave but they couldn't afford him

this is a much different situation the ownership group just spent 900 million dollars to buy the pittsburgh penguins they still have you know 10 million dollars at cap space space. They can make it happen. Yeah, no, they have, the funny thing is, they have the room to sign him right now, even with that Raquel train. And if that comes in at six or seven, probably seven at this point, you still have three million left over to maybe sign someone else or you can move salary out, which is, I think, you reported. And we'll get to all that a little later on in the show. And I'll also talk about the potential agent angle with this and then the Ricard Raquel contract

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off at belts.com. All right, we're back here on this episode of the locked on penguins podcast. I am your host, Hunter Hodes. We're going to follow me on Twitter, Hunter Hodes. Follow the shows, Twitter, L.O.N.S. Of course, my guest here is Josh Yoey of the athletic. And, you know, I was thinking about this yesterday, Josh, you know, has J.P. Barry Malkin's agent been, you know, a pretty big factor in him maybe wanting to go to market more than Gino himself. Maybe he's just, I don't know, in his ear a lot more saying, hey, you know, you can get this on the open market or all this other stuff. Because, you know, you know, everyone knows that he wants to come back to Pittsburgh.

You know, that's been his main focus ever since the season ended. But, you know, has there just been, has his agent just been a bit too tough in it? Or is, I mean, it's just this typical, you know, an agent wanting to get his client the most amount of money. Yeah. You know, it's tough to say, but I don't sense that JP wants Malkin to leave. I have always felt like all of Malkin's representatives have ultimately wanted him to stay in Pittsburgh. And remember, J.P. Berry works for the same organization that Pat Brousan works for.

There's Sydney Crosby's agent. They're all pretty close. They all have a great relationship with one another. You know, I've talked with Pat. I've talked with Sid in the last week. like everybody wants Gino to stay in Pittsburgh. And I don't think it's different with JP. I mean, could Malkin make more money on the open market than he would make in Pittsburgh?

Yeah, probably. It only takes one team, you know. I always tell people, you think, oh, that guy wouldn't make that much on the market. It doesn't matter if 29 teams wouldn't give it. If a couple teams would, that's all it takes. So I don't know that JP's driving that heart of a bar. bargain. I just get the sense. And again, I'm not trying to villainize her on Hextall. I think he's, man, he's taking a lot of heat lately. And I don't think he's in an enviable

position. I think there are some people think he should just give Gino whatever he wants and letang whatever he wants. Like it doesn't work that way. Like you still have to have some boundaries, which I understand. But I do sense that it's the penguins who really aren't budging a whole lot from from their demands and their requests as opposed to Balkans people. but it's interesting you have crosbie and malkin really good friends they they are represented by the same agency so there's a lot of familiarity there um it's just you know i keep going back to sid's involvement in all of this it's just so interesting to me because he never flexes his muscles when it comes to stuff like this he really doesn't he just kind of stays in the background and whatever happens happens that's just

kind of his polite way um but i actually talked to him on uh thursday night the night that Crystal Tang signed his contract in the first round of the draft. And I spoke with him after the draft late that night. And, you know, he gave me a quote about Crystal Tang and how happy he was for him and everything. And Crosby even said, you know, I want to, I hope we play six more years together, which kind of the first time Cid's ever said, you know, how much longer he wants to play. And then he threw in at the end, though, hopefully Gino's next. Like, he made sure to include that.

That was just important to him that everybody knows, you know, hey, I want this to work. And it's a fascinating week in Penguin's history. And anybody who tells you they know what's going to happen is lying, nobody really knows at this point. It doesn't look great from my vantage point for Malkin coming back. But Gino's Gino. He could change his mind tonight. He does that a lot. He's a pretty impulsive character.

And, you know, and it's not all on him. The penguins can always call him and say, all right, here's four years, you know, six and a half or whatever it is that you want. Anything's still in play, I think. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't be surprised at all. If they were to call him, whether tonight or tomorrow morning, make, hey, you know, change our minds. We budged a little bit. You know, does this maybe work for you? And then they can see if that works.

But, you know, you wrote something interesting, I think, in your story yesterday, Josh. and I'll ask this again here is are they feeling the pressure from the ownership group to get this done? Because I feel like you know, you said I think the ownership wants all three to retire with this organization. You know, are they going to be really upset?

Especially because, you know, they didn't hire these people. You know, with Fenway, you know, I went back and looked at Liverpool and a couple other things. And, you know, they've gutted some of their staff when they came in and they want the best of the best, I think, is what I've read. Right. Do you think they will be really unhappy if the management is not able to get this done?

It's a great question. I will say this about Burke and Hextall. They don't have the sentimental romantic attachment to Malkin that Jim Rutherford had or that Ray Shiro had because they've only been around here a year and a half. They've never even seen the Penguins win a playoff series. So it probably is different for them. I don't know that I think they feel pressure to win. And I also think they feel pressure to be marketable and to fill seats.

I don't know if that's necessarily, you know, specifically geared toward Malkin or not. I don't sense that it is. I still remember a conversation I had with Ray Shiro 10 years ago now, 10 years ago, 11 years ago, I guess, during something we like to call Yager Watch. And Ray Shiro said to me, he said, I wasn't here in 1992 when he was won in Cups. I don't give a shit about that. He said, I don't have any attachment.

The guy wants to play for the offer. We made great. If he doesn't, okay, I don't care. Like, that was the mentality. Now, I don't know that Hexon and Burke are to that extreme. I mean, they have been around Malkin for a year and a half, and I'm sure they have an appreciation for all that he has done. I don't doubt that they do for a second.

This is an all-time great player. this is a guy too who I don't think we can ignore has sacrificed his health. I mean, he was playing against the Islanders on a partially torn ACL in the playoffs last year, and he knew it. It's insane. And he did it anyway.

He was one of the best players on the ice. So, I mean, and you can't say this guy doesn't show up in the playoffs. I mean, does Gino take a game off every now and then in the regular season? You bet you. Does he get hurt a lot? Yeah. Okay. Do you want him on your side in a playoff series?

Yeah. I mean, he's still one of the great big game players in the game. You could not deny his will to win. And how much his teammates love him for what that's worth. He's an enormously popular man in that locker room, I assure you. So this whole thing is just kind of a shame. It is. I don't know why it came to this.

Yeah. Maybe both sides were being a little obtuse. And the penguins are going to catch most of the heat for it. And that might be fair. You know what? My question on all of this is, Hunter? I mean, listen, and listen, I will preface it by saying, I've seen a little bit of,

a little hint of Ottoman Malkins game, maybe more than Crosby or Lattano. You can see he's not as explosive as he once was. He's starting to slow down a little bit. That's fine. But my question is, okay, you let Malkin go. Who are you going to get that's better? That's my question, because everything they've done in the last six months

is to win now to have this two or three year window. Carter, Russ, Raquel, Latang, all these guys you're bringing back. You're going for it now. You're going to trade more prospects, whatever. Well, okay. Who are you going to get that's better than I'm getting himalk? And if they do, if they pull off some trade for J.T. Miller, who might be better than I'm getting him all going to?

Okay. Great. But I don't see any evidence of that happening. And if he just let him walk, it just, to me, it betrays everything that you've done in the last six months. It just doesn't add up. No, no, I agree with you. people have, you know, coming to my mentions on social media and they're like, oh, yeah, it's time to let him go.

He's not good at five on five anymore. It's a turnover machine. I'm like, okay, show me the data on that. And then show me who is going to come in and be a point per game player like he was last year when he played half a season. And so by the way, by the way, Hunter, he was playing much of that year with Casperi Captain and who didn't even know what planet he was on, I don't think. Yeah. And, you know, an injured Jason Zucker and Raquel for a little while. But, you know, and he still needs to produce and he should still produce.

And he wasn't great five on five. But he had a lot working against him last year. He was coming off of a major injury, did not have much in the way of linemates, still put up better than a point per game. We can't ignore that. The guy is just a point machine. He always has been. Yeah.

And your power play is going to suffer if he's not there next year. I don't know who the heck is going to be in his spot. And, you know, I'm sorry. You know, Vincent Trocheck, I like him as a player. He's not, he's not of Guinea Malkin. He's never going to be, Evgeny Malkin. I don't like what the numbers are looking like for him. I think some, I think you said it's going to be maybe a six-year term.

That's a hard pass for me right there. Six times six for him is just. Yeah, I mean, listen, Vince is a good player. He's a good number two center. That's what he is. The luxury the penguins have always had is that they basically have had two number one centers all these years and they theoretically still could for a couple more years and that would seem advantageous for them and there are some other centers like nasm cadre's a really good player

somebody's going to overpay for him like you can and he's like i think 31 32 he's not a kid i think the penguins are going to go after him right josh i haven't heard them linked to him at all um i think burkey did draft him if i'm not mistaken so there's a little bit of a connection there i have not heard his name at all i think somebody's just going to to pay out the ass for him. He's going to get eight years, eight million somewhere. Hey, God bless him. He had a great season in Colorado. He's going to earn that money, but I don't think the penguins can afford him. You're going to hear some other names out there, Andrew Kopp or Strom or. Yeah, I was going to ask you about copy. When you look at the data for him

and the county stats, I kind of tend to side with him over someone like Vinny Trocheck. Have you heard the penguins in on cop or nothing with him really? heard one way or the other on him. And he's a good player. Like to me, he's one of those guys, like he's a spectacular number three center. I don't know. Yes. Going to score enough to be number two. Whereas Trocheck, like, he'll put up 20, 25 goals. I mean, he's just going to put up solid number two center numbers. You know, he's only had one season where he really won off, I think, in 17 or 18. So, yeah, I mean, and I go back to J.T. Miller. I mean, listen, he's the one center who's available who he had 99 points last season and this guy has turned into a

spectacular hockey player all indications are Vancouver isn't even really going to try to resign him they know they can't is one year left on his deal it makes 4.5 mil then he's going to be a much wealthier man after this next season I'm sure JT and Vince you know they both skate and cranberry every Wednesday night in the goat league they live two miles from the practice facility both of them I have no doubt they'd both like to play in Pittsburgh. I believe that pretty strongly from things I've been told. The problem for the penguins, though, how do you get Miller?

And I know everyone says, oh, Jim Rutherford's there. So you can destroy Casperi Caput. And Marcus Patterson, like, nah, it's not that simple. You know, maybe those would be pieces of the puzzle. I was going to ask you about that. How would Patrick Alvine feel about, like, I don't know, Zucker or Capon or Marino unlike Rutherford? because it is different when he's the general manager and Jim Rutherford is not.

I mean, I don't know how much power Jim has over him or how much influence Jim uses. I don't know. And Jim's always been used to being the guy. So I'm sure he still has some clout. And Jim does like Capitan. We know that. He does like Marino. He does like Patterson.

But the fact of the matter is, and this is where the Penguins, you know, years of trading away prospects and draft picks is catching up to them. It's not just that they don't have the talent pool. is that they don't have the talent pool to make trades with other teams who want young players. I'm sure they'd love to add J.T. Miller and why wouldn't they? Boy, would that be a nice one-two punch for the next four or five years with Sid. But other teams have better prospects. Other teams have more draft picks that they're willing to deal. So I just don't see how that happens.

And it's funny. You look at the Penguins roster hunter. It's still a pretty good hockey team, really. Yeah. You still have maybe the best line in hockey. You've got, you know, decent bottom six. Not a great one, but it's okay. You got a pretty decent blue line.

You got a good goal tender. They've got some pieces. And like I like Ricardo, Raquel. He's a good player. Maybe they overpaid a little whatever. That happens sometimes. But Ricardo Raquel is the kind of guy. If you don't have a great playmaking center to play him with, what's the point?

He doesn't really generate that much offense on his own. That's what I'm concerned about with him. And, you know, we'll obviously dive into that little in the next segment. But yeah, I mean, that's the one I'm really concerned about because you don't play him with Sid. And Gino's not back. Right. You know, what are you doing there?

You know, do you, I guess I'll get to that in the final segment as well. But, you know, overall for tomorrow, say Gino, you know, does not come back, Josh. Do you expect the Penguins to be pretty aggressive tomorrow with that 10 million? Because usually this team does not have that much space. I will say that. It's probably the first time, I think. First time that I can remember that they probably have that much space going into the free agency. And, you know, my biggest concern is, you know, they're waiting for Malkin to make his decision.

And then cop signs, trochec signs, all these other guys sign. And then you're sitting there like, oh, what's going to happen here? So, you know, what do you think the penguin strategy is going into tomorrow for that 2C spot? A couple of things. First of all, I know for a fact that penguins for days now have been trying to, to make a trade. They're trying to shed some salary. And Marcus Pedersen's probably the most likely guy to go.

From what I've heard, he's the person they'd prefer to move out of the blue line. You save, you know, then he's slide P.O. Joseph, it will make, you know, around a million next year. So you save more than $3 million if you can get rid of Pedersen. Makes sense. I get it. And people can argue about if Dumlin should be the guy to go or whatever, John Marino, from what I've heard, is the player everybody wants around the league.

and he's the guy that penguins don't really want to give up. They like the idea of Latang and Marino on the right side for the next few years. If they can make a move to clear some space, that would make their job a lot easier and they could be a lot more aggressive tomorrow. That said, I think they will be aggressive. I wouldn't be shocked if J.P. Barry and the Penguins talk again tonight or tomorrow morning, but I'm telling you, if it gets to noon, and if Balkan still hasn't signed,

whether this is Ron Hextall's fault or not, and you can certainly suggest that it is, he's in a bind at that point. Okay. He can't sit around and let Trocheck and cop and whoever else, Strom, you know, all the cadre, all these names you're going to hear. He can't sit around and let them all sign elsewhere

and then have Malkin go sign in Colorado and have Jeff Carter as the number two center when the season starts. That doesn't work for anyone. It just doesn't make sense. So I have to think there's a better than 50-50 chance that by this time tomorrow, we will know who the Penguins number two center is. I just can't imagine them sitting around for long. Yeah, no, that would make sense there.

And, you know, coming up here in the final segment for the show, yes, Theron, I heard that too, buddy. It's okay. My little puppy over there is Heaven Wolf, bit of fun. I'm coming up here in the final segment. We are going to get into the Ricard Raquel deal. A couple other things for tomorrow. So stick around for that coming up here in this final segment. All right.

We're back here on this episode of the Lockdown Penguins podcast. I am your host, Hunter Hodes. Josh Yew is, of course, my guest here for this final segment. So Josh, you know, so people were wondering last night, is Puckpedia an actual source? And I was like, no, no, that's, they have all the agents on there. and they have their own sources. And, you know, very, very weird.

It came out of nowhere that the penguins extend Ricard Raquel, six years, five million per year. You reported, I believe, Josh yesterday or the other day that it sounded like it was unlikely that he was going to come back or that he was going to be going to market. How quickly did that deal come together? Because by the sound of it when I was reading your article, it sounded like they didn't even have any discussions. So that deal wasn't have came together in like, what, five minutes?

It happened yesterday. after the Malkan circus or whatever I want to call it kind of blew up yesterday. I can tell you that the Penguins and Raquel's representatives, they had talked weeks ago, and basically Raquel's representatives said, here's what we would want. This is the kind of deal we would want to come back to Pittsburgh, and they didn't hear from the penguins for quite some time.

And then all of a sudden the penguins basically called back and said, all right, let's do this. Then we like your guy. We're okay with that. He's a player the penguins really liked from Dave One. And you could see why. We knew this was a guy who had some goal scoring talent, who was a gifted player. What I didn't know, and we quickly saw watching him plays, what a complete player he is. Like he'll go to the net and take a beating. He'll add kind of a physical element. He passes the puck even better than I realize. He can do everything. and he's a good hockey player. I don't know that they really wanted to give him six years,

but that's how it goes on the market, Hunter. Like, I remember years ago when Rob Scudery got that second contract with the penguins and everyone went nuts. I thought with Ray Shiro the day of the deal, I said, four years. And Ray said, I don't want to give him four years. It's free agency. It's the only way you're going to get people. The same thing with Jim Rutherford.

I actually texted him when the deal with TANF came down. I texted him six years of the question. question mark and he called me he said his free agency what you have to do otherwise you don't get players every we all overpay in free agency that's why the teams that are built in free agency don't win stanley cups uh you can certainly help yourself with the player here and there of course but you have to be careful yeah and you know the biggest thing you know i had pros and cons to to it i mean six years you know it is a long time i mean you can definitely make the argument that no one is really going to care at that point.

The team is going to be bad. I don't even know if Sidney Crosby, to be honest, is going to be even playing at that point. I mean, maybe, I guess. But the thing that got me, Josh, is $5 million, though, for Raquel. I mean, it's just, it's a big commitment for me because 20 game sample, basically, and that's what you're going to give out. You know, I just don't know if, like, that's the best way to do business.

And, you know, I think we discussed it a little bit in the last. segment, you know, the biggest thing for me, you almost have to play him with Crosby if you want to get the most out of him. Because say Malkin does walk and you do bring in someone like, I don't know, a trocheque, Andrew Kopp, is he going to really produce with that player? Right. That's, that, that's the big thing. And if he's scoring less than 20 goals and you're making $5 million, I think that's going to rub some people the wrong way. That's the thing. And listen, I, I really like Raquel. He's a good player, a legit top six winner. He's not the kind of. He's not the kind of a guy that creates a lot of offense on his own.

Yeah. He's just your classic guy. This is going back many years. It reminds me like Peter Sikora or James Neal guys. So you put them with a talented playmaking center. They'll finish and they will help you. But you need to play him with someone like that. And you mentioned Trochuk.

Let's just hypothetically say they signed Trochuk. Just looking ahead because we all like talking about line combos. I think Raquel on the top line would make a hell of a lot more. sense. Trocheck and Rust are basically the same player. Like they're both kind of undersized and fast, tenacious guys. They'd probably be good together. I don't know if Trochuk would really bring out the best in Raquel. So if they had a lineup like that, they would have to take those things into consideration. So listen, they gave Raquel a lot of money for a lot of years.

He's a good player, though. So I don't think him coming back is a bad thing, but you sure is better have someone to play with him. And that's why I said, like, I like this roster in general. If you get a good number two center, I still think they're a playoff team. I really do. I mean, they have an intriguing mix of players, no question. But there's just that gaping hole on the second line right now that can't be ignored. Yeah, and honestly, you know, someone from England sort of said this last night before the Raquel deal with when the Malkin thing happens, like, wow, it's almost like it's hard to replace almost a entire second line during the off season. They just got Raquel.

So that's one. You're going to get your second line center. who is going to be that other winger. I don't think it's going to be Kisbury Kappen. I was going to ask you about that too, Josh. People were wondering he got qualified 800K. That's a no-brainer. You can retain his rights. You know, I don't think

you need to let him go for nothing. Is there a chance that he is traded? Because, you know, I think that would make sense to get him a fresh start. But in the back of my mind, I'm kind of thinking, man, is the organization like him more than I think they do? Some people in the organization do.

Um, it's weird. Mike Sullivan has a particular soft spot for, for Capon. Very weird. And I know Caponinin drives him crazy too. Because you know how it is with Capon and he'll look. Some nights, he looks so good. Um, and I can tell you, I took a lot of hell for saying this, but I mean, I'm not the only one who said it.

He was their best player in training camp last season. He was unbelievable. I thought he was going to have a 30 goal season. I really did. Um, then he was just a complete disaster. I think he's a little immature. sure. And I think he's just kind of lost as a hockey player at times. I'm all for giving him the qualifying offer.

He's going to make, what, 8 or 900,000 this year if he signs? Okay. It's worth taking a flyer on him because he has talent. And now that you've got Russ and Raquel locked up as your right winger's on the top six, you can put cap in and then more of a bottom six role where there's less pressure on him to score. You know, he and Jeff Carter actually looked good for a little stretch in March or April, or whatever it was together last season. Maybe they have something that can give you a decent third line. I don't know.

But because you have Raquel and Rust also, I think that gives you the flexibility to trade cap it if you want. I mean, he doesn't need to be here. If you do, you know, do business with a team that for whatever reason is intrigued with him, I could see it happening. He's just, he's a maddening player. They gave up so much to get him. You can see the talent that he has,

but I just don't know if he's ever going to put it all together. Yeah, and that's just like, you know, how are you going to actually bring him back next year and just stick him on the third line again? We all saw how bad that was Carter. We saw that was Malkin, when he was still producing, even though Kaplan was bad, you know, that doesn't make too much. Even if they do bring him back,

I think he should be used as trade. But, you know, I do think, Josh, they should go out and get another winger for that second line as well, on the team if they have the space for especially if they do make a trade to open up some more you know if you have a brand new second line if malcon does walk um you know i think maybe you can sell that a bit more to the fans but you know right now if you're running it back with you know someone like capning up there you know jason zucker who i know is you know he plays his tail off every night but i know how banged up he gets i don't know if that's really going to you know

I guess be like a good message to the fans is what I'm trying to say. Yeah. Doesn't it all go back to whether or not you can trade some money off of the blue line to really go get an impactful player? Like I don't dislike Zucker. You're right. He works his ass off every game. He was snake fit last season.

But I thought he didn't score a goal in the playoffs. I thought he was really good though. He played great. He did. I don't have a problem with him being on the second last. line, but given his injury history, you'd like a little more depth there for sure. I don't think his contract is tradable. And even if it were, you still have a hole in the top six if you trade them.

That's the problem the penguins find themselves in, I think, regarding that spot. But it all goes back to being able to trade one of those defensemen. If you can, you know, what are they up? I think they're about $10 million under the cap right now. Let's assume cap it and signs, so it's really $9 million. If you can trade Pedersen for a draft pick, slide PO under the lineup, then all of a sudden you have 12 million in cap space.

Yeah. Okay, then you can get, whether it's Malkin or Trocheque or whoever, it's going to cost you around $6 million, right? So then you still have $6 million to play with. You could go get, you know, what, a second or third line winger and an impactful one, perhaps, or get a couple of guys making $2 or $3 million

who can maybe make your fourth line better. So if they can trade, that defenseman that gives them so many more options. And I know they've been trying. Everyone thinks it's so easy. Maybe teams don't want Marcus Pedersen for a million year. I think we're running into that. And they don't want to trade Dumlin because they just give LaTang six years. And he likes playing with Dumlin, right? And they don't want to trade Marino because if you trade Marino, that puts Ruido or Friedman in your top four, which you don't really want to do. I get it. I think finding someone to take Pedersen is what it all comes down to.

Yeah, I think that until that domino falls, it's just going to be tough for them to really get, you know, even more cap space. You know, do you see that trade happening before noon tomorrow? I mean, I think in a perfect role, Josh, they would want it to happen before then, right? Anything's possible. But so, yeah, I mean, listen, this is so by the time people watch this, who the hell knows what might have happened, everything is so fluid right now. But I kind of feel like if they could make a trade to free salary space, they probably would have by now. And Hexel even said at the draft, I think it was Friday morning. So that's what about four days ago, four or five days ago.

He said, yeah, we've got offers out there. We're trying to do something. So that tells me there are no takers yet. That can always change. Free agency day changes general managers decision making and motives a lot. But you kind of feel like they would have made that deal by now if they were going to. But certainly they're still true. And for all I know, there is a team that would take Pedersen and Hextall wants more in return than he's been offered.

I would think just as a salary dump, and I don't, I'm no Marcus Pedersen hater. He's okay. You know, but the fact is he was a healthy scratch a lot in the second half last season. He certainly has fallen out of favor with the coaching staff. So it's the logical guy to move. And I think we can agree whether you like him or not. He makes too much money. He definitely does make too much money. I will argue that I thought he was pretty good last year.

I don't know if he really deserved to be scratched at times. If it were my way, Josh, I would have them trade. I would have them trade Dumolin, but I understand why they don't want to because he's comfortable with Chris. And, you know, it's the thing, you know, his contract's up next year. I do feel like with the Stanley Cup pedigree and him being a defensive defenseman, you know, teams. You know, you know, there's a general manager out there. Like, oh, that guy's got two Stanley Cup rings. We've got to get him.

Oh, I mean, Chris Drury gave Barclay Goddrae six years last year, which was ridiculous. I mean, they made a bunch of mean moves and they came within two games of winning, going to the Stanley Cup final. So, you know, it just goes to show how, you know, those moves sometimes work out. And, you know, it's just because Dumlin is, he's not what he used to be. And my thing is also, like, do you want to lose him for nothing next year? And, I mean, I don't know if they were going to bring it back. I personally wouldn't because I think the decline has really started with him. Well, he's an interesting one.

I have so much respect for him. I did. In the career, you know, in 16 and 17, he, he's. He was so good. He was so important to what they did. He's a really good guy, too. He hurt his ankle in St. Louis. That was, oh, God, it was Thanksgiving weekend.

I think it was 2019. He's never been the same since then. I mean, that injury, his skating has never looked the same to me since then. And he looked a step slow a lot last season, and that's something that I hadn't seen before. So it would not be the worst idea to deal him. It would be pretty forward thinking, I think, in some ways. It would be essentially the same amount of savings.

I think it'd be easier to trade. I think you could get more in return for him. Absolutely. And like Marcus isn't a bad player. Marcus was good in the playoffs. It's funny. I didn't love this. I thought John Marino was very average last season.

Great in the playoffs. And I thought Marcus Pedersen was pretty average. They were good in the playoffs. They were really good. Oh, yeah. And I give them credit for how they played, the helmet gate notwithstanding. But, um, Duman in a lot of ways. And I know there's, I know people will,

especially who are in analytics, really would prefer Dumlin go when you just look at the numbers starting to regress. And listen, you could see in the eye test, too. He was responsible for a lot of goals against last season, and that's something I've never said about him before. So, no, it's something to consider. And I think they'd rather trade Dumlin than Marino.

I think they're really hesitant to trade John. They just love having those two right-handed guys in the top four with Latina. And Krober wants him so bad. I mean, their fan base just wants him. to come home, I think. Oh, Jim likes them. So we know that they need right-hand of defensemen really badly there. So it makes sense.

That's why if you hear J.T. Miller rumors, you will hear Marino's name included. I have no doubt. If you could get J.T. Miller, maybe it'd be worth it. I'm not, you know, Marino was so spectacular his rookie season. He has not been bad since then. He's just been kind of stuck in neutral. You know, the offense has really disappeared. been the disappointing thing with him.

He needs to find a way to be a more productive offensive player, especially with the way the game has changed. Look at all the best teams in the league. They all have three or four defensemen who can score. I mean, that's just the way it is. You don't have to be Colorado, but you need more production from your blue line than just letagin Mathism. Now, I do agree with that.

And, you know, there was a weird rumor, I think a few days ago that they were, I think a couple outlets reported that they were discussing a trade with Jeff Petrie from Montreal, but I don't really know how that only makes sense if you're traded merino and you need to replace him for a year. Yeah, I couldn't see that happening. It's just his salary is too much anyway. Finally, Josh, you know, before I do let you go here, you know, give me your prediction for tomorrow. How do you see it going for the penguins as you stand right here? Do they make one move?

Do they make two moves? You know, what are you thinking? What's going to happen tomorrow? Well, God, if I knew the answer, Hunter, we'd be flying to Vegas right now and we'd be cashing out. My sense is that Malkin is probably gone. And I would not be shocked if he, you know, comes to an agreement with the penguins despite all of this. And Sidney Crosby's magic works and they figure something out. It sure feels like he's leaning toward leaving.

And if that's the case, I don't think that. the penguins are going to wait around very long. They can't afford to. This might be a mess that they've created, but you can't just get the July 14th and not have your number two center and let everyone go. So I would expect a fairly significant signing tomorrow, whether it be of Gennie Malkin, Vince Trocheck,

whoever else it may be. I don't think they're going to wait much longer. Yeah, I mean, this is these next 20 hours, 19 and a half right now. I mean, this is, I said that at the start, Josh, this is probably one of the most pivotal points in the franchise is history. It is. Yeah, it's the Super Bowl of the off season. We all get excited for this day.

But excuse me, I feel like Penguins fans are more nervous than excited right now. I would say most of the fan base is very nervous. You know, if Gino does go, I hope no one really says anything too terrible about him. I mean, this is a top four player in the franchise history. This is someone who's going to have his number retired when it's all said and done. You know, it usually makes me uncomfortable. when, you know, a franchise player like that doesn't, potentially does not retire with the team that drafted him.

It's just, it would be a shame. I mean, yeah. I mean, you know, there's so many, you know, numbers next season, a thousand games, Josh, you know, so many other, I think, 400, 400, 500 goals, I think is coming up to, I think it's 400 goals for him, if I'm not mistaken. No, he's, uh, I just wrote this, actually. He's not far.

I think he's 56 away from 500, I think. Yeah, 500. It's my fault. So probably two Cs. seasons. Yeah, I mean, that, they may miss out on that. It's just. And I, I will emphasize, Hunter, he doesn't want to leave. Yeah. He's, he's always wanted to be here. But he still has an ego. You know, he's a Hall of Fame athlete, and he feels like the Penguins are kind of disregarding him right now. And it would be a shame if his Penguins' career ended like this. I will say that. Yeah. I would agree with that. You know, Josh, thank you so much for taking the time today. I'd have a little pause because of some maintenance thing from my apartment,

but we got through that. This was a lot longer than recording, but, you know, I'm glad we got to, you know. We had stuff to talk about. That's all right. Oh, yeah, no, no, no worries at all. I don't mind. This is going to be a big day coming up. And it's, I think that's probably the best I can say for it.

It's going to be something, man. It sure is. Yeah, thanks for having me, Hunter. Appreciate it. Yeah, Josh, thank you. Thank you for coming on. You go read his stuff at The Athletic. And Josh, plug your Twitter before you go.

Oh, God. I mean, I should know my Twitter name. That's embarrassing. But I'm looking at it on my phone right now because, you know, there it is. It's my name. At Josh Yoey underscore PGA. I thought that's what it was, but I didn't want to give people, you know, misinformation. These people were getting old here.

Sorry. Yeah. Yeah, Rudolph Josh's stuff tomorrow. I'm sure he's going to be all over it, whatever the penguins do. And until next time, I will talk with you all on Wednesday.