Locked On Penguins - Daily Podcast On The Pittsburgh Penguins - Is this Erik Karlsson to the Penguins thing going to happen, with Josh Yohe!

Episode Date: July 5, 2023

Happy Wednesday! Hunter is back from his Fourth of July celebrations and is joined by Josh Yohe to discuss the past few days in Penguin Land. They first discuss the Erik Karlsson situation and if there's anything new on it. Josh drops a couple of nuggets about it, including about how something almost happened on Saturday before they look at how he would fit onto the team. They analyze who would play with him at 5v5 while also spitballing if he and Kris Letang would run the power play since Todd Reirden would be having a field day with that. Hunter also wonders when this trade will happen since the Sharks don't appear to be in a rush to make this deal, despite not having any leverage. Also: Who would be the perfect partner for EK65? After that, they discuss the Jarry contract and Josh gives his thoughts on it before they look at who will be his backup. Are Casey DeSmith's days numbered? They then discuss the bottom six and if Drew O'Connor and Alex Nylander will take major steps this upcoming season. Could they both get full-time roles with the team? What about Radim Zohorna after he was brought back? Finally, Hunter and Josh look at what else Kyle could do, especially if he doesn't get Erik Karlsson.Support Us By Supporting Our Sponsors!FanDuelMake Every Moment More. Don’t miss the chance to get your No Sweat First Bet up to TWO HUNDRED DOLLARS in Bonus Bets when you go to FanDuel.com/LOCKEDON.FANDUEL DISCLAIMER: 21+ in select states. First online real money wager only. Bonus issued as non-withdrawable free bets that expire in 14 days. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Gambling Problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit FanDuel.com/RG (CO, IA, MD, MI, NJ, PA, IL, VA, WV), 1-800-NEXT-STEP or text NEXTSTEP to 53342 (AZ), 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat (CT), 1-800-9-WITH-IT (IN), 1-800-522-4700 (WY, KS) or visit ksgamblinghelp.com (KS), 1-877-770-STOP (LA), 1-877-8-HOPENY or text HOPENY (467369) (NY), TN REDLINE 1-800-889-9789 (TN) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

I hope everyone had a safe and happy 4th of July holiday, at least in the United States here. Joining me for the Wednesday edition of the Locked-on Penguins podcast is Josh Yoey of the Athletic to get the latest on the Eric Carlson situation and to recap all of the Penguins for agency moves and what could be ahead outside of Eric Carlson. That's coming up right after this. You're Locked-on Penguins. Your daily podcast on the Pittsburgh Penguins. Part of the Locked-on Podcast Network.

your team every day. Hello, welcome back to another episode of the Lockdown Penguins podcast. I am your host, Hunter Hodes, and are going to follow me on Twitter at Hunter Hodes follow this show's Twitter at Eleanor Store Penguins. And of course, thank you all so much for making this your first list and slash watch of the day. We are free and available on all platforms. This episode is brought to you by Fandual Sportsbook, the official sportsbook of Lockdown. You can make every moment more.

Visit fandul.com slash locked on today to get started. With that said, I am pleased to welcome the wonderful Josh Joey of The Athletic back to the Locked-on Penguins podcast. And Josh, I think we have quite a few things to discuss today. Do you me not? Yes, Hunter, it has been a busy few days in Penguinsland. I saw people complaining on Twitter in June that Kyle Dubas did not make enough moves in the first couple of weeks to their liking. I am guessing by the evening of July 1st, everyone probably felt a little differently. Just a wild day in Penguin's history with all the moves that were made. And with all the moves that could still come, who knows, we'll get into that.

But we have much to discuss. And it is always a pleasure to be on the double-h show, as I like to call it. Maybe I'll try to get locked on to rebrand it as the double-h hockey show podcast. But, Josh, let's start with a move that could potentially come at any time, honestly. And that is the Eric Carlson sweepstakes. Numerous reports have it down to the penguins and the hurricanes. Elliot Friedman had it on the 32 Thoughts podcast. David Pagnoda of the fourth period today said that it's down to those two teams.

Carlson is interested in joining both of them. The sharks could be willing to retain $3 to $4 million. What is the latest on that situation? Well, here's what I can tell you. First of all, when this news all came out on Saturday, I think it took everybody by surprise a little bit, right? And I spoke with some people I know who would have such information, and they told me, yeah, Kyle Duvus really likes Eric Carlson. And I think we all know in Toronto, he dabbled with the idea of bringing him to the Maple Leafs, too. So this has long been a player that has, you know, fascinated Kyle Dubas a little bit, I think.

He's, let's be honest, it's the Paul Coffee of our era. It makes a lot of sense. I was told that on Saturday the Penguins came, and I quote, extremely close to making this trade happen. Like, it was really close. And I think if I had to guess, I don't know this for a fact. I think San Jose kind of pulled back a little bit and assessed their options before moving forward. I do know that as of the time of this recording on July 5th, the penguins are still interested. They are not out of this.

Kyle Dubas really likes the idea of either Chris LaTang or Eric Carlson being on the ice 80% of the time. And you can see why. The penguins are a team that are, you know, they're founded by offense. And if you could have Sidney Crosby and of getting Malkin almost exclusively on the ice with either Eric Carlson or Crystal Tang, you can see what they're thinking. And I think Kyle, I think Kyle made the Penguins better on July 1st. We'll get into that. I think they're marginally better. I don't think anyone would be surprised if they were a playoff team next season.

But to really make that jump into the tier of contenders, I think there's a feeling that penguins needed. do something. They need to make some kind of a change, some kind of a splash. Maybe Eric Carlson is that guy. We will see if it happens. I don't know if it's going to happen, but it sure sounds to me like Kyle Dubas wants it to happen from everything I've been told. And he didn't dodge it at his press conference on Saturday, Hunter. He came right out and said, well, yeah, I'm not doing my due diligence if this guy's available and I don't talk about him. That was pretty interesting to me. Most general managers in that setting would say, well, I'm not talking about a guy who plays for another team, not Kyle.

That's right. I mean, he basically flat out said that, yeah, I gave San Jose a call. And yeah, I'm interested. And I think that's going to continue until the situation sorts itself out. I would assume if the penguins were to get him, that a whole bunch of salary would be going out the other way because, well, they're over the cap right now, number one. And that's how it would have to be. You know, Jeff Petrie, I assume, would be involved, Mike Kyle Grambling, potentially. maybe a first-round pick.

But the thing is, I understand maybe the sharks wanted to pull away a little bit, but they don't have a lot of leverage in this situation. The player wants out, and he has a no-move clause. They're not going to be getting this massive return that you see sometimes for a true star player. Like, I don't think you're going to be seeing a trade like Matthew Kachuk for McKenzie Weeger and Jonathan Huberdow like we saw this past summer. What you're probably going to be looking at is just a couple of players who, are fine, but they're not world beaters, maybe a pick, it may be a prospect and the penguins.

Even though they don't have a lot of assets, Josh, I still think they can do that. They don't have the prospects that Carolina does or the cap space, but I still think they have a package that could theoretically work because, again, the sharks really have no leverage in this situation. No, you're right. I had long been under the impression that the sharks were happy just to ditch themselves of his salary. They're a rebuilding team.

They stink. So if you're a rebuilding team, why would you want to be paying a guy $11 million? As great as Carlson is, it was a ridiculous contract at the time. So I was always under the impression if they could shed themselves at that salary. They weren't going to be all that greedy with whatever they got in return. It feels like that's changed a little bit. I guess, funny what a 101 point season can do. You know, Carlson all of a sudden it looked like he was on the,

the decline for a couple of years and maybe he wasn't. He just had a magnificent season. So, yeah, the sharks want something more, but I still don't think it would require some kind of massive package. Number one, Jeff Petrie absolutely would need to be included. There'd be no room for him in Pittsburgh with Carlson and LaTang. He makes what, six and a quarter million? That would go a long way. And you have to assume the sharks are going to retain a chunk of his salary. We don't know how much. I've heard 20%, 30%, and that they don't want to go much higher than that. If Carlson's willing to play for, you know, 8, 8.5 million, or rather, I should say, if the

sharks are willing to let them play for that much, if they retain the rest, you trade Petrie. That goes a long way toward becoming cap compliant. Not all the way, but it's a big step. So the question is, what else would the sharks require? maybe a first round pick next year. I know Kyle said he doesn't want to trade first round picks. Maybe he would for Eric Carlson. We know the penguins don't have much in the way of prospects.

I got a couple. Maybe something along those lines. I don't think it would take much else, quite honestly. And I think the sharks are waiting to see if other bidders come to the table. So far, they have not, by all accounts. So if it's down to Pittsburgh and Carolina, we will see what happens. Carolina has more in the way of prospects to offer. Don't forget, though, if you're Eric Carlson,

people might say, well, wouldn't he rather play in Raleigh? They're better than the Penguins right now. Yeah, maybe they are. We don't know that he wants to play there. There are a lot of Swedes on the Penguins roster, too. He could play with Marcus Pedersen. That's his countrymen. I've heard he's a good relationship with their Carder Cal.

And if you ever watch the aftermath of the Chris Kunitz game, Game 7 against Ottawa in 2017, I will never forget the conversation Crosby and Carlson had in the handshake line. If you think there isn't mutual respect there, you're wrong. Those guys get along. And if you're Carlson, maybe, you know what? I could be on a power play with Sidney Crosby and Abgeny Malkin and Jake Gensel. Hey, that sounds okay. So who knows where Carlson wants to play?

I wouldn't be shocked if he'd prefer Pittsburgh. though. I wouldn't be either. And you're right, going back to that 2017 game seven, Cindy Crosby and Eric Carlson had that very lengthy chat in the postgame handshake. And Carlson flat out said to him, yeah, go get another one. You're the best out there. And it was a really nice handshake, very classy, I think, from both of them.

And honestly, who Carlson would play with was going to be one of my next questions, but you basically answered it. I would also put him, well, you can do either one. I'm not crazy about Ryan Graves on the top pairing. We'll get to Ryan Graves a little bit later because I think Marcus Pedersen is a bit better for the top pairing at this point. But even if you did Graves in Carlson, I think that could work. As long as you put someone with him who has a decent defensive presence because I think everyone knows Eric Carlson's defensive work is not good anymore. And that's being nice.

It's flat out horrendous. There are people out there who don't like Chris LaTang's defensive work. Yeah. You will see that times 100 when it comes to Eric Carlson. Great player obviously puts up a lot of points. But if you don't like Crystal Tang's defense, you know, you're going to wish Crystal Tang was out there making lower mistakes than so on like Carlson, which is why you need like a pure defensive defenseman with him. Like you could have Pedersen with him, but I like him on the top here.

But Graves, I think, would also work just fine too. Well, I'm sure they would try both looks. And you're right. Carlson is not a great defensive player. I don't know how much of that is an inability to play defense on his part. I don't think he's great defensively to begin with. I also think just playing in San Jose the last couple of years, I don't know how much he cared about playing defense.

Excuse me, I think he wanted to put up his numbers. It's funny you bring that up. Chris Lattang had a bad year last season. And when you're analyzing Lattang's career, for all the greatness you cannot deny, the guy makes mental errors sometimes that can absolutely drive you crazy. However, Crystal Tying at his best

was not a bad defensive player, and I hope history will not remember him. He's actually, in that way, he's actually a really good one-on-one defender. He does some things defensively very well. I can't necessarily say that about Carlson, but I mentioned Paul Coffey earlier. You're too young to remember Paul Coffey, Hunter.

I'm sure you've seen the videotapes. I remember watching the doctor in the 90s. Paul Coffey didn't play defense. Okay, his idea of playing defense was holding on to jerseys. He would always get holding penalties because he'd be behind on the plane. He'd be trying to catch back up. But he also put up 100 points a season. And most defensemen can't get away with that.

Guys like Coffey and Carlson, even more than Lantang. Because Carlson's better offensively than Lutang. He's way better. They can get away with certain things. But you're right. You have to have the right defense. defensive partners. And we'll talk about Graves later. I don't think he's a great player. I also think he's an upgrade over Brian Dumlin at least. So Graves and Pedersen, they are kind of

more of your traditional stay-at-home guys that would make sense playing with the likes of LaTang and Eric Carlson. I like how we're just talking about Eric Carlson this whole segment. It's kind of fun to talk about, though, isn't it? Just the idea of another Hall of Famer of his ilk. Josh, there's nothing else going on in the offseason right now. Honestly, I personally, I personally think everyone is waiting to see what happens with this situation before other moves are made. Noah Hannafin hasn't been dealt yet. You have the Connor Hullabuck situation that hasn't come to a head yet. Vladimir Teresenko, we thought he was going to sign in Carolina, fired his agent.

Now he's being represented by J.P. Berry and Pat Brasson, so I don't know what's going on there. There's a whole bunch of moves that haven't been made. And I think it's because of this situation. I was going to ask, when do you see this coming to a head? head this week next week end of july august this this has to be happening at some point soon right you know maybe um i know i've been thinking about that a lot myself and hey it could happen today and it wouldn't shock anyone but i wouldn't be surprised if this drives on for a while quite honestly i don't sense that the sharks are uh panicking or in a hurry to move him immediately

I think they'll wait during the course of the summer and see what the best offer is. It's interesting. You mentioned Noah Hanofin. I know for a fact the Penguins inquired about him as well. That was during draft week. He's a guy they were certainly interested in. But a deal like that might have been even harder for them to pull off because Hanofin, you know, is what one year left on his contract, I think. He only makes 4.9.

they're probably looking for better players in return than the sharks are if that makes sense. The sharks have so much more about just salary and salary space. And the penguins can still create some of that if they want. But Hannifan was the guy they were interested in. They talked about him for sure. But yeah, Carlson, I would guess at some point in the next couple of weeks we might have an answer. But it could drag on for a while. I hope it doesn't.

I don't really want to deal with this all summer selfishly. but I don't think the sharks are, I think the sharks are kind of waiting for somebody to sweeten the pot a little bit. That's my sense. Well, Seattle's already out, according to numerous reports. Ron Francis was in there for a bit,

and then he ducked out and now it's just these two teams, but maybe a mystery team comes out of nowhere. But I hope it does happen soon as well. I'm heading to the beach this upcoming weekend through a little bit of next week. You know what I mean? It's totally going to happen during that time, I think. That's often the way it is. And I will also say this.

I am going to see my children in Canada this weekend, and the penguins love to make moves, like, right when I'm at Border Patrol, and I don't have any cell phone reception. They've done this. Jim Rutherford made three or four trades, literally when I was, like, handing my passport to somebody and had no internet access. And he always promised me he would try not to do that in the future,

but then he quit his general manager. So I don't have that luxury anymore. I just don't feel like I know Kyle well enough to say, hey, Kyle, can you hold off this weekend? So maybe this weekend is when it happens. He'll do it just as by both of us. This will be interesting. You know, also seeing Carlson on the power play.

There's many alignments you can make up for that. Crosby, Malk, and Gensel, Latang and Carlson at the two points. If you want to do that, you can also have Carlson run it himself and take Latang off. But honestly, Josh, I don't know how much Latang is going to like that because he's run the power play for his entire career in Pittsburgh. outside of the early years when Sergey Gonshar was still running it. But you can do a lot of things with that unit. And I think Tar Reardon would have a lot of fun just to wrap up this segment.

No, I do too. And we were talking before we went on the air. I can't wait until the Penguins are like losing 3-2 in the third period with 10 minutes left in a game just to see Latang and Carlson on the same pairing. You know somebody's going to score on that shift. You have no idea which team it will be, but you won't be able to take your eyes off the television when it happens. Those are, you know, two of the great talents you will ever see at that position,

theoretically playing on the same team. Sign me up for that one. Every game, 7-6, 8, 7, 9-A. Let's just go back to the 80s. Bet the over. Yep. Bet the over every night on Fanduel. Honestly, speaking of Fanduel, take your first swing at betting MLB on Fanduel

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locked on. Fandul, the official partner of Major League Baseball, and locked on. All right. We're back in this episode of the Locked on Penguins podcast. I'm Hunter Hodes joined by Josh Yoia

of the Athletic. Another, well, I shouldn't say another, but a big move that was made over the weekend. Josh was Tris and Jari five year deal,

5.375 million percies and it came after a lot of goalies signed with other teams like Jonas Corp Rosal and Ottawa. He also got a five-year term, which was a little

much if you asked me. Got Cam Talbot going to Los Angeles, Jonathan Quick, to New York, Frederick Anderson and Ansi-Ront City Carolina. And that left just the Penguins really, maybe a couple other teams. And there was Tristan Jari, not many other options on the free agent market,

but trade options with Linus O'Mark, maybe, Connor Hellebuck, John Gibson, Vemalka. When you saw this deal, what was your immediate reaction to it and how are you feeling about it now? My immediate reaction was it was a really good day for Tristan Jari because Tristan didn't want to leave. He likes it here. And he's set for life financially now. I wouldn't have given him that many years.

I wouldn't have given him that much money. But I can't objectively look at it from Kyle Dubas's standpoint. And you have to realize how bad the goaling market was. All those names you just mentioned that signed in free agency. Are any of those guys Stanley Cup winning goalies? Probably not. Outside of Aiden Hill who got his deal? No.

Right. And that's the thing. It's such of an unpredictable position. Look at the last few goalies who have won Stanley Cups. In the last six years, you got Matt Murray and Jordan Bennington and Aden Hill. I mean, these aren't Carrie Price or Henrik Lundquist or Mark Andre Fleury or, you know, it's a difficult position to figure. I was surprised Kyle gave him that big of a deal.

I feel like ultimately Dubus felt like he was a little trapped and he had to do something. something to make sure he had a number one goalie. And if you consider the assets that you'd have to give up for Hallibuck or Gibson, you know, you're having to give up assets, you're having to pay them more this season. And in Hellabuck's case, he's a free agent after one year. I think the idea of Jari was probably more appealing. And I will say this for Tristan, I've been really hard on him in the last year. I will say this.

He is physically gifted. Okay. You can make a pretty compelling argument just based on physical tools. He's one of the 10 best goalies in hockey. With him, you worry about it upstairs. You worry, does he have the mental toughness to be a Stanley Cup goaltender? Is he going to meltdown in big moments again like he has the last couple of years? How was his health?

All of that stuff you worry about moving forward. I understand why Dubas did it, but if he gave Kyle some truth serum, I bet he would tell you he was a heck of a lot more. comfortable offering Tristan Jari two years and 10 million, not five and 26. I mean, I think any GM in that situation, even maybe Ron Hextall, if he was still the general manager by the divine situation, would probably be hesitant. And honestly, I listened to Elliot Freeman on 32 thoughts. And Hextall and Burke, he reported that they balked when Tristan asked for five to six years

during the season. So something must have changed. He also said that they switched out their athletic support staff. I found that interesting, Josh, so he's going to have a whole different system there, you know, in terms of, you know, medical stuff and just people getting him ready to play and also just making sure that he's hopefully not going to get hurt going forward because that's the big thing with him. I do think when he is healthy and when he is on, he's in like that second to maybe third tier of goalies. Maybe he's like a top eight to 12 goalie in the league, nine to 13.

He's not one of the top five to seven. I'm not saying that. But when he is healthy, we have seen it before. Heck, last season before he broke his foot when Andersly rammed into him late in the season, he was one of the best goalies in the league back that year. And if he can get back to that, I think this deal could look really good. It's just that it can also go on the other side where ages like milk if he continues to get hurt and all this stuff. It's a chance.

The penguins are taking a risk. And if you look at Kyle Dubus' history as a general manager, I think he's done a lot more good things than bad. If there's one position that has burned him over the years, it's cold tending, it's always been the issue for him. And you mentioned Tristan, I do often go back to the 21-22 season. He was outstanding that year.

And that was, of course, a few months removed from that dreadful Islander series, which, let's be honest, They lost that series because of him. They didn't lose it because of anyone else. They lost it because of him. And his whole thing that season was, it was about redemption. And he talked about it.

He talked about how embarrassed he was by that playoff performance and how he wanted to get back and prove who he was. And he had that great season. And then he breaks his foot. He can't play against the Rangers until game seven. And he goes out there with his foot still very much broken and plays games. seven at Madison Square Garden did not play a horrible game that night either, but they lose.

And that could have been his last ever playoff game was at Pittsburgh-Keywin goaltender. Now he will presumably get more chances. It's an interesting story. I question his mental toughness at times. I don't necessarily trust him to be the guy. We know he has the talent to be the guy. Man, they're betting on him pretty big, though. They definitely are.

And outside of Tristan being back, Casey to Smith still there. They signed Alex Nadelcovic to a one-year deal, 1.5 million per. And they also signed Magnus Helberg. So he is there on a one-year one-way contract. That just means he gets the same salary, the NHL and the HL level. But overall, four goalies on one-way contracts. How is outside of Tristan Jari Josh, how is that situation going to shake itself?

out. Do you think Casey DeSmith has played his last game as a member of the Penguins? Because it's funny, when you look at all three of their numbers, and I'm talking to Delkevich, Helberg and DeSmith, Desmith is the better goalie by far, just numbers wise. But how is this all going to shake out? Great question. I wouldn't expect all four of them to be in Pittsburgh when the season starts. I definitely think Casey is a trade candidate. Yeah, when you look at the numbers, Casey's a good backup. And if you look at his numbers all the way through his progression to the NHL, he often outplays Jari.

His numbers are sometimes better. Now, we must consider Casey's never played 55, 60 games in a season. A lot of times, guys like that, when they have to play a whole season, their numbers start to decline. They're no stop built for the wear and tear. And you can argue maybe Jari isn't too because he always gets hurt. But in theory, he's a bigger guy. He's always been durable.

before the last 12 months. You know, they're in an interesting spot. I think it probably behooves them to move Casey. That's no knock on him. Man, isn't it tough, though, the idea that they would bring back the same two goalies again when goaltending has betrayed them as much as it has, especially in the postseason the last few years? You think they might have something different in mind?

They might keep three, and I bet they will, and if somebody will play in Wilkesbury, that's fine goal-tending depth has been an issue for years so i appreciate that dubus is kind of recognizing that and bringing in a bunch of guys um my guess is there's a real chance to smith has gone before the start of the season though i wonder if he would be involved in a carlson trade or just in another trade to bring in another forward or something like that just like a package or something because it just seems weird to have three other goalies behind Jari, and they're all vying for that one backup spot.

They're all kind of support. And you don't usually see a lot of teams during the season carry three goalies on the roster unless someone has to be called up. So that's going to be really interesting to see what happens over these next several weeks slash these last couple of months until training camp starts in late September. That's, I'm really curious. It wouldn't shock me if he would be in, involved in the Carlson trade.

You know how sometimes when you see a player in person and he plays an incredible game, it kind of enhances your opinion. Casey DeSmith played the game of his life in San Jose last season. I was just thinking about that. Peng was played a terrible game in San Jose. The Smith said had a good game, but he was literally the only guy who played while the Smith stood on his head all game. Maybe my career was watching.

I think, damn, this Casey de Smith isn't bad. We might want to get our hands on him. Who knows? Stuff like that does happen on occasion. I just, they're not going to have four guys on one-way contracts when the season begins. So I would think there's a real chance that Casey goes. I would agree with that as well. But that wraps up the goaltending part of today's episode.

Coming up to end the show, we're going to get into the rest of the moves that Kyle made over the weekend. And outside of Eric Carlson, what he could have planning for the rest of the offseason. That's coming up right after this. All right, we're back here in this episode of the Lockdown Penguins podcast. I am your host, Hunter Hodes. are going to follow me on Twitter at Hunter Hodes, follow the show's Twitter at Ellen Armstrong's for Penguins. And, of course, thank you all so much for making this

your first list since last watch of the day. We are free and available on all platforms. It's great that Twitter is back working now, unlike on Saturday when it was just a total. What the hell was that? Of all the things. Oh, no. It was literally brutal just trying to refresh,

and you just got rate limited every time. All the memes were tremendous. But that's where Kyle did, a lot of work, even outside of Tristan Jari, bringing in Ryan Graves, six-year term a little below $5 million per. Matt Nietto, Noah Chari, and Lars Eller. We'll start with the bottom six, Josh.

I was discussing this on my Monday episode, thinking that I think they need a little more of an offensive punch down there because I don't truly see a player who can score 17 to 20 goals for you. I see a bunch of guys who are really good defensively, and that's great. Don't get me wrong. But offensively, on the other end, I see a bunch of dudes who are only going to score you, what,

nine, ten, eleven goals. I don't think that's enough when the top six has some of those rare nights off because they had those this past season and they missed the playoffs. So when you look at the bottom six now, what are your thoughts? Well, you said it defensively much better. All of these guys, they're bringing in can kill penalties. They need that the PK was pretty bad last year. So that's great.

Lars Eller is probably a microcosm. Lars Eller is not a great player. He's not going to produce huge numbers. He's not going to score 20 goals. He's a heck of a good defensive player. He always has been. He's just really smart. There's some Matt Cullen parallels there probably.

Cullen, in his heyday, probably a better offensive player, for sure he was. But there's that kind of wise veteran who's great defensively. He's still, you know, this isn't Craig Adams. This is a guy who scored 10, 15 goals. That's fine. So across the board, even Niedo is like, he's not a great player. He can really skate. He can kill penalties.

Nice fourth liner. He's fine. And it's an upgrade over what they had last season on the fourth line. So my two things that pop into my mind when thinking about the bottom six. Number one, what do you do with Jeff Carter? Like, he's still on the roster. You can't trade him. need to just bury him on the fourth line and put him on the right wing and hope he does okay maybe i don't know

we've talked a lot about petri and in grandlin and ditching salary carter's a salary he'd love to ditch as well um but they're in a really really tough spot with him i don't even know where he fits it on this fourth line if he just put him in the press box which isn't hey if you have to you have to if you've got 12 forwards who are better then he should be in the press box. But my other thought on the bottom six, and it's a guy to me that's kind of an X factor, and that's Drew O'Connor. I like Drew. I always have.

He's big. He can skate. I mean, you can see the talent there. He had that preseason two years ago when Crosby and Malcon were hurt. He was unbelievable. He was the best player on the ice in preseason every day. He looked great in the exhibition games. The thing with Drew, I think he's a natural center.

I think that's his best position. I'm curious to see if he gets a look there, if they keep him on the left side. But I look at him and I see a guy who has like 20 goal potential, if not more. I mean that. I think it's there. They just have to get it out of him. Wouldn't it be great if he blossomed into a guy that you could even, you know, some games here and there, you could put him on SIDS line.

And he would do a, I'm not talking all the time. I mean just enough. And I'm bringing this up for a reason. If somebody like him could surprise you and become a decent third wheel even on a top six line, wouldn't it be nice to put Brian Rust on the third line? Because there's no knock on Rusty. He's been a heck of a player for a long time. He wasn't quite himself last year.

We know that. Wouldn't it be nice to have a presence like his on the third line, a guy who would still score you 20 goals on the third line? Then all of a sudden you would have some offense. in your bottom six. And you wouldn't be as worried about all the guys you brought in not being big offensive minded player. So just throwing some things out there.

I think Drew O'Connor is a very important player for the Penguins. And by the way, I'm a little surprised they didn't bring Ryan Palin back. He has like 24 years old. He's big. He can skate. I understand he's not a great offensive player, but I feel like there's some untapped potential there. I was very surprised by that move.

But regardless, I think Drew O'Connor is an important guy. for the penguins. If he can become a regular, at least get the, you know, 10, 12, 15 goals, I think it can make a real difference. If he can, he played, I thought,

decent in his time. Last season, scored a couple of really nice goals. Yeah, I mean, he finally got time on the third line. If he can produce a little bit more, I would maybe be down for him to maybe get some test runs in the top six.

I wouldn't put him there, like, right away or anything. No, me neither. But wouldn't it be nice if somebody, if one of these young guys would exceed expectations, at some point and maybe give you some options and some flexibility. I thought for a while, I know it's hard to bring in top six people. And I love Riley Smith.

He's a good player. But wouldn't it be nice if Rust could just play on the third line? And maybe that would take some pressure off of him. And he's not the kind of guy whose ego would, you know, cause a problem. He got paid. He's good. He's got his rings. Just to have a presence like him in the bottom six on a smaller scale.

It's like having Phil Kessel on your third line. I know he's not Phil Kessel, but just to have a reliable goal score down there, they just don't have one right now. But it's a problem to me. I would agree with that. And, you know, what do you think of? I also think Alex Nealander may have a shot at making the team out of camp. He impressed me in some of those games.

Lacher Josh, he almost had the game winner against the Rangers late in the season coming down on a two-on-one, fired that beautiful shot. I think it was saved by Holokk. It was trying to go Gloveside, scored that goal against Detroit that really got the Penguins going in that game. What do you think of his chances at potentially making it and then being a staple in the bottom six for this season? I'd be surprised if he didn't make the team.

I think he will. And he's another guy with his skill level. I mean, I know the game has changed and bottom six players aren't really all that different than top six players in terms of style. But he's not your classic bottom six player. Wouldn't it be great if you could play him with Malkin, put him on the right wind some shifts and slide rust down or, or, you know, whatever. You can get creative. Yeah, he's got talent. He wasn't overly productive in his handful of

games at the NHL level, but I just thought in terms of the eye test, you could see something was there. He didn't look out of place at all. He's not afraid to shoot the puck. I like his game. I know more importantly, Mike Sullivan does too. He definitely got better over the last year or so in Wilkesbury yet. No, I think he'll make the team. And yeah, it's exactly what I'm saying between Nealander, O'Connor, one of these guys, if they could just take a jump and just be like, you know, like a top nine forward for the penguins, a regular

on one of the top three lines, man, that would give them so much more roster flexibility, would help them overcome injuries, and you could slide some people up and down the lineup, which would make a real difference. They were so top heavy with those top two lines last year, Hunter. and, you know, they didn't make the playoffs as a result. That's the primary reason why they didn't make the playoffs. And as great as Sid and Gino are, they're not getting any younger.

They need some help. They need some other people to pick up the slack and scoring. So that's certainly something to consider. Another player who I think could be called up in sports during the season is Big Z redeems a horn to return to the penguins on another deal. I like him. I think there's definitely some untapped potential with him, but I don't think he's going to be someone that makes the team out of camp.

I'd be kind of surprised by that, to be honest. I know there are a lot of big Z-chuters out there. He played pretty decent when he was with the Penguins, but the sample was so small, and you can inflate the numbers all you want. But I don't know. I mean, I like him, but I think at best right now,

he's kind of just like a fifth center, maybe a top center in Wilkesbury right now. He'll come up during the season probably, but I don't think he's going to be like this major difference maker in the bottom. six right now or anything but it's so excited that they brought them back first of all i think we should turn big z truthers into a t-shirt or something i like how that sounds yes um his first few games at the nchl i remember he he scored a few times and i know the analytics the numbers were really good

yes and yeah he's just so big he's intriguing you see a guy who's that big and he he knows where to go like he's got hockey sense his hands are not terrible i know i've always been in true jim brotherford loved him he he always told me like this guy has a chance to be a legitimate nchal player and he's never really put it all together but there is familiarity there with sullivan and in big z yeah he probably needs to play in wilkesbury for a while and kind of get readjusted to the system and everything else but boy he's not a bad guy to have around and we learned that a couple of years ago if a few people go down he has to play considerable minutes for 10 games. He knows what he's doing. He's going to score

every now and then too. Yeah. I was all for bringing him back. The only thing about him you know, if you want to see the penguins get more physical, and I know a lot of people do, and it's fair when you look at recent cup winners like Vegas, they play with a nasty edge. Big

Z's like seven foot tall and 260 pounds or whatever. He's a little too nice. Like he's not going to initiate much in the way. It's just not his game. He's a big man or doesn't play a physical game. But nonetheless, no, I think, at least in terms of organizational depth, it's a good thing. And I've always been kind of interested in him as a player.

I still think there's more there. Yeah, only had 10 points as a member of the Penguins. And that could go up this season if he does get some time. Wrapping up here with the last couple of things, Josh, Ryan Graves comes in six years. Your Brian Dumond replacement in the top four, not sure which pairing he's going to play on, whether it's with Crystal Tang, or whether it's on the second pairing with Jeff Petrie or potential Eric Carlson

or whoever will be on the right side on the second pairing. What do you make of that move by Kyle Dubus? You know, I had no problem with it. It's a lot of years. But July 1st, that's the way things go. Ryan Graves is not a great player. I think he's a pretty good one. I think he's gotten a lot better the last couple of years.

He was good in Jersey last season. He's a legitimate top four defenseman. I don't know that he does anything in particular really well, but I don't think he does anything poorly either. There's no real weaknesses. Like he's really big. Now, is he physical? No, not really.

He's a big dude. He's like 6-5-220, right? Is he a gifted offensive player? No, but he scores like eight or nine goals a year. So this isn't Rob Scuderi. This is a guy who can shoot the puck who can jump into the rush on occasion. He faced a lot of tough assignments last season. He always played against the opposition's best players,

and he did a good job. And he's by nature kind of a stay-at-home guy, which makes sense. Maybe he's playing with Lytang, which I think is the plan for now. So he's not a great player, but I think he's a good one. And more importantly, I think he is clearly a better player now than Brian Dumlin has been the last two or three years. So just looking at it from that standpoint alone, I think you've improved yourself.

You're clearly getting a better version of a top four defensive than what Dumlin was the last two years. I love Dumo, just saying, but that's not a high bar to clear just because no, it's not. It was time. I think we can all agree. It was. And your column on Gumel and just reminded me so much of his glory days with the Penguins and how great he was in 2015, 16, 2016, 17. They don't end up with 17 without them.

They absolutely do not. And people should never forget that. But boy, the last couple of years have not been pretty. He was electric, you know, especially after Paul Marley. Martin was on the litanying pairing, going from him to Dumolin. Wow, just a beautiful situation there for the Penguins, and he was awesome. He'll get a standing ovation when he comes back to PPG Pains Arena this season as a member of the Seattle Cracken. To wrap up here, Josh, even if the Penguins don't get Eric Carlson, and there's definitely a good chance that they may not.

What do you think Kyle Dubus is going to do this all season? because I do not think for a second that he has done tinkering with this roster. No, I don't think he's done either. You're going to see a salary dump of some kind. I know for a fact, they were talking with other teams about trading Jeff Petrie. I'd be a little surprised if Petrie is a penguin when the season starts. It's possible. But I just don't think they like his salary.

And while they still think he's an adequate NHL player, They just don't think he's a $6 million NFL player And I think most of us would agree with that I still think there's a good chance he goes I think there's a good chance to Smith goes I get the sense He just really wants to tinker with his blue line

The ultimate prize is Carlson But I still think he wants to make another move You saw a pretty big one with Graves We talk a lot about the bottom six Not being great last year And obviously it was awful We all know this the blue line wasn't very good either

and I feel like that's a little under the radar Marcus Pedersen certainly had his coming out party he was good last season but we know LaTang for a lot of reasons had a terrible season Jeff Petrie wasn't very good Dumolin was bad Pio Joseph really wore down in the second night

he had some flashes early but I don't think he's like a sure thing you know as a regular NHL defenseman moving forward he has things to prove I don't think anyone the organization was blown away by what Ty Smith showed them either, which isn't to say he's terrible, but again, there's just a lot of question marks on this blue line. You don't like having question marks on your blue line.

I think Kyle would like to find another defenseman somehow before the season. That would make sense. Also potentially finding a taker for Granlin, though he talked to him up pretty much, well, pretty much a lot, excuse me, during the press conference. But what GMs say versus what GMs do. are two totally different things. I think everyone needs to remember that because this is the first time. I think a lot of fans are doing with a media savvy general manager. You go from Jim Rutherford, who would tell you everything he was going to do, to Ron Hextall, who did not say a word to anyone,

to Kyle Dubus, who says some things, but he knows what he's doing when he's talking to the media. And I think more and more people need to recognize that, Josh. He tucked up Jeff Petrie real nice the other day, in fact, which, which, but, I was kind of amused by. Oh, they went to Detroit to check him out. I'm like, well, did you now? Which they did. But, yeah, that was interesting.

One little thing I should add, and I only, maybe this was public knowledge, I don't know. But I found out a few days ago from somebody I trust very much that when Kyle was in Toronto a couple of years ago, he tried to acquire McClellan for the Maple Leafs then. That's true. So Granlin obviously is not the same player now that he was even two years. ago. But that was interesting to me, and it makes me wonder if maybe Dubus likes him a little more than the rest of us, maybe enough to make him kind of a project, a reclamation project this season. Maybe they keep him. I still think they will find a way to ditch him before the season.

That's my guess. But I don't sense he's quite as down on him as the rest of us are. That will be an interesting situation to follow as well. But either way, I don't think this team is far from Dun tankering. That's for sure. And Josh, it's July 5th. This is when Kyle said he's going to start really diving into hockey operations hires. We could see a GM being hired this month, but he's the de facto GM right now, at least. We'll have to see what happens with that, that's for sure. But I really appreciate you coming on this latest edition of the Walkton Payland's podcast.

What do you have coming at the athletic coming forward? Oh, boy, I'd like to be sitting on the beach for the next two months to be on. honest with you, but we'll be having plenty of content. A lot of Eric Carlson articles will be written in the next few days. We are certainly keeping the pulse on that situation. That's, I think, what the fans are most interested in right now. So that's what we're going to be focusing on the next week or so until there is some kind of news.

We will get you all the information that we can on that. And, yeah, there's so much to write about the team. You said it. There could be a new GM. If you're going to hire a GM, we still don't even know. He may. There could be some more assistant GMs coming. You're going to see other people out into the front office.

And, you know, before you know it, it's September 15th and training campus started. We're only a couple of months away, believe it or not. So it is not too far. No, it is not. So keep it right here on Lockdown Penguins. Also keep up with Josh's work at the Athletic. I will have another episode for you all on Thursday. I will be leaving for the beach this week.

I'll still have some content coming out for you all this weekend, but I'll have another episode for you all on Thursday, then on Friday to wrap up this weekend. And next week will be the final week of everyday episodes for the next couple of months until the show goes down to three episodes a week, which will be very nice because I don't think there's going to be too much happening, but also anything can happen at any time. So we'll just have to see again.

Thank you again, Josh, for coming on. I really appreciate it. And I'll be back with another episode for you all on Thursday.