Locked On Penguins - Daily Podcast On The Pittsburgh Penguins - Jesse Marshall returns for A LOT of Penguins offseason content!

Episode Date: June 9, 2023

It's been a semi-busy offseason for the Pittsburgh Penguins and it's about to get even busier with the NHL Draft and free agency on the horizon. With that in mind, Hunter decided to bring on Jesse Marshall from The Athletic to preview these next few weeks. Before that though, they discuss Kyle Dubas and whether it was the right move to give him a seven-year term. They also look at who some of the candidates could be to be the GM under Dubas while also wondering if Dubas would ever give up some of his power to the GM at some point. After that, the two look at the latest news surrounding Tristan Jarry, and Jesse gives his take on whether he will be returning for next season. He even gives his prediction on which route Dubas will go for getting a starting goaltender. They also discuss changes to the backend and how many there could be before Jesse gives a bold prediction about a trade this offseason. The two even analyze whether Dubas could trade down from the No. 14 pick if it meant getting out of Mikael Granlund's contract for the next two years. All that, plus much more, is on this episode of the Locked On Penguins podcast.Support Us By Supporting Our Sponsors!BirddogsGo to birddogs.com/lockedonnhl and when you enter promo code, LOCKEDONNHL, they’ll throw in a free custom birddogs Yeti-style tumbler with every order.GametimeDownload the Gametime app, create an account, and use code LOCKEDONNHL for $20 off your first purchase.eBay MotorsFor parts that fit, head to eBay Motors and look for the green check. Stay in the game with eBay Guaranteed Fit. eBay Motors dot com. Let’s ride. eBay Guaranteed Fit is only available to US customers. Eligible items only. Exclusions apply.FanDuelMake Every Moment More. Don’t miss the chance to get your No Sweat First Bet up to TWO THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS in Bonus Bets when you go to FanDuel.com/LOCKEDON.FANDUEL DISCLAIMER: 21+ in select states. First online real money wager only. Bonus issued as non-withdrawable free bets that expire in 14 days. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Gambling Problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit FanDuel.com/RG (CO, IA, MD, MI, NJ, PA, IL, VA, WV), 1-800-NEXT-STEP or text NEXTSTEP to 53342 (AZ), 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat (CT), 1-800-9-WITH-IT (IN), 1-800-522-4700 (WY, KS) or visit ksgamblinghelp.com (KS), 1-877-770-STOP (LA), 1-877-8-HOPENY or text HOPENY (467369) (NY), TN REDLINE 1-800-889-9789 (TN) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Congratulations. You have all made it to Friday. Happy 6-9 day to everyone. And for today's episode, The Log Compainments podcast, I will have Jesse Marshall from the Athletic on to discuss everything regarding this team from Caldupus getting a long-term contract, trades, for agency, all that plus so much more is coming up right after this. You're Locked-on Penguins. Your daily podcast on the Pittsburgh Penguins. Part of the Locked-on Podcast Network. your team every day. Welcome back to another episode of the Lockdown Penguins podcast. I am your host, Hunter Hodes,

in order to follow me on Twitter at Hunter Hodes and all this shows, Twitter at EleanorSler Penguins. And of course, thank you all so much for making this your first listen slash watch of the day. We are free and available on all platforms. This episode is brought to you by games time. I mean down the game time app, great account, and use code locked in the shelf

for $20 off your first purchase. Without further ado, it is my pleasure to welcome I'm on Jesse Marshall from the athletic, a reoccurring guest for the show. He's been on numerous times. And Jesse, another gorgeous day out here in the city of Pittsburgh, and it's been a little over a week since Caldubis took over as president of hockey operations. No moves yet, but I do think those are coming. Do you agree with the report out there, or do you agree with the decision about the report

that they gave him a seven-year contract where he will be here for not just the end of the Crosby-Malkan era, but going into a rebuild. No, I mean, I think that was part of the allure of getting him here. I mean, that's kind of like, to me, just an inconsequential number because they could fire him at any time.

You know what I mean? Like, that money is, that, that's free money, you know, in essence. So do what you will. Sorry, my charger is falling out of my laptop here. You know, do what you will with it. You know, it's FSG's foot in the bill, right? So, yeah.

At the end of the day, I kind of expected they were going to toss him a bag and that was going to be a part of the allure that brings them to the job. So I think money in term are probably two things will expect to see in the finer details of this when it officially gets released. But not surprised. Yeah. And again, like if things go really poorly, they'll separate from him and they'll move on and that'll be the end of it. You know, they'll, again, it's their foot in the bill here. So I think at the end of the day, he wouldn't have taken the job at all if it was a, they said, hey, come be the general or the president of hockey ops here for two years, right?

What's in it for him to do that? Even if they're paying him a lot of money, that's just not enough, right? So I'm assuming that, you know, with total control comes term financial stability and all of the things that are kind of necessary to woo a guy like that over to your city. Yeah. No, I agree. I mean, I heard a couple of days ago that it was seven times six, which is a pretty good payday. And I think it makes a lot of sense that, you know, when you give them that kind of money, it's hard for, I think, anyone in that situation to say no.

But, you know, be the president of hockey ops. He's going to hire a GM at some point. Wanted to ask you about that, Jesse. You may have known at the press conference. He's going to wait until July to really get this going. No one, he even said, and I agree, no one is going to give permission to talk to anyone right now because the draft is in two, two and a half weeks at this point. Pre agency is in about three.

I believe it's three weeks from the Saturday is the pre agency. So when you hear that, who do you expect to be in contention for the GM job, maybe outside of Brandon Pritom? Because I think everyone knows that they're going to try to talk to Toronto in regards to getting Pritom. Outside of that, though, who do you think are some strong candidates for the position? I'm going to lead on Matthew Darsh. I think that, you know, if you talk to people around the game, he's got a low, probably, I think one of the more low profiles out there.

perhaps among some of the names with star power attached to them, so to speak. But if you talk to anybody that's been around him for any measure of time, there's a recognition of his smarts, his thorough evaluation process, his reliance on non-traditional methods of evaluation, his cap savvy. these are all things that I think make him a good candidate for the position. And, you know, somebody that, you know, would have the guidance, so to speak, to be able to sit under Dubus's wing a bit and learn from someone who's been in the position and has, you know, been in a high pressure position for an extended period of time.

That, I think, is a – that's probably a preferable place for a Darsh to go, right? Because, you know, that – you kind of have him – being shielded, I think, a little bit there from, like, you know, dubous, you know, I'm thinking of the meme where the army guys got his arms out like this and there's someone sleeping peacefully in the bed. You know, that's kind of the setup here, right? You get the ability to have a little bit of a lower pressure start. So I think that's one, you know, Jason Bottero is another one that I think probably still

banting about out there. I don't have strong feelings or attachments to him one way or another. I think he'd be a fine pick. I think they could also do better. But I think if he landed in the position, they'd be just fine. And again, someone who's more renowned. I think their big strength is their cap savvy over their player evaluation process, and the ability to hide and work around money and launder money, if you will, in the salary cap.

And look, hey, the penguins could use all of that that they can get. I mean, they're going to have dead money on the books. You know, you got to assume McHale Granland's going to get bought out. That's dead money. Jeff Carter, you should, you know, I think they need to take that toy away from Mike Sullivan Hunter. You know, I think unfortunately we've learned he's going to use it if it's there. So you buy that out, you eat 100% of that, right? You can't get any wiggle room there.

So you got to find someone who's really savvy at freeing that money up. And there's, you know, argued it Bauderl's probably the best in the business at that. So I still think that those are two names that aren't going to be spurned away by the fact that they didn't get the other position. And it's still, you know, potentially open season for them to step in and, you know, still have a, still have a, you know, in one case, I think a promotion. and I think in another case, you know, a pretty high profile role with, you know, the ability to take it and run it with a sort of unfettered, if you will. Yeah, I definitely understand that. You know, I've been running with this thought on my show this past couple,

you know, about the past week or two where they definitely are thinking about maybe promoting someone from another organization to that GM role. I've also had the thought that they maybe want to structure the front office similar to what the avalanche do right now. Because Joe Sackick for a long time was running the show. He was grooming Chris McFarland. And then now Sackick's the president of hockey ops. He kind of helps out McFarland, but McFarland makes the moves.

I think eventually that's what the penguins are going to want with Cal Dubus. Because Dubus, even when he hires a GM, whoever that is, he's still going to have the final say. I don't think the GM is going to be going out there and saying, oh, well, I want to do this. And then Dubus is just going to be like, well, okay, you can do that. Like, he's going to have the final say. no matter what. But I do think eventually a few years down the line, he's going to want to maybe pass off some of that decision making to the GM

while he can just be up there in like that sactic position where he's just helping out like when McFarlane needs help and whoever this new GM is. That's the kind of thought that's been coming into my head for the last week. Yeah, I think that's all. I think it's all. And, you know, you hinted at this to, Hunter, when we started, I mean, I think everyone's kind of like got their own thought process in terms of him potentially leaning one way towards a guy that he really likes and knows personally and has a long history with maybe being the option that's obvious and right under our nose. But I wouldn't rule out, you know, now that he's here and developed a new relationship with Mike Sullivan, has learned the lay of the land, has talked to people around the organization, you know, needs evolve, I think, and you may have a perception of a situation when you go through an interview process and then a reality.

that may sit in for you a little bit differently, that may change your perception of what's required in the job. So the reason I bring that up is I do think that there may be evolving. I think one of the reasons there's a patience here, Hunter, is that there's maybe evolving understanding on his part of what it's going to take to dig out of this to get back to the playoffs, which may require a set of skills that some of the people he's known from his past don't have. in that case, I don't think you can roll out the options that you're suggesting and the fact that he may go deep outside of this organization and just completely pluck somebody that we weren't even thinking about at all given what's in front of them.

I can definitely see that. I am curious to see how he builds out the front office in general. You know, it's been a little over a week. Hasn't really brought anyone in yet, Jesse, which is interesting. I guess he's just maybe being a bit more patient. I mean, there's really, when you look at the front office structure right now, there aren't a lot of, experienced assistant general managers in there. I mean,

Eric Heasley was kind of running the show a little bit as an interim guy, Alex Schall, is not there anymore. Kerry Huffman was let go, Tina Murray. Are you expecting any hires to be made before the draft? I mean, we know Jason Spetsa is probably going to come

aboard as an assistant general manager. He loves Kyle. But outside of that, you know, do you think any hires are going to be made here in the near future? Yeah, I think so. I think especially to his immediate, personnel, like what's around him in his inner circle.

I think, frankly, he probably knows who those people are. So maybe he's trying to be a little bit respectful right now by, you know, giving some time. But yeah, I think so to answer your question, yeah. And I think, again, hockey op staff that's really in his direct immediate vicinity is going to be on the list that we see go first and probably scouting too would be the next one, I would say. Yeah, as well. But those are two areas that are definitely going to need to be filled out.

Ron Hextall had a lot of people with no experience doing scouting and player evaluation. So, you know, you're going to have to continue to work to build that. So overall, yeah, I mean, I think that I think we will start to see some movement. Yeah, one guy that I do think he's going to try to bring on is West Clark from the Toronto Maple Leafs. He runs some of their scouting up there. He'll probably replace Nick Pryor, if I had to guess. To be honest, I think Pryor's probably going to turn in his resignation after the draft because, I mean, you know, his dad got fired and I don't really think he's going to want to work under, you know, Kyle Dubus in that situation. But that wraps up this first segment as we discussed Kyle Dubus and obviously the big hire with him being president of hockey operations.

Coming up in the second segment, we're going to get into some big decisions that he's facing. I'll get get Chessie's thoughts on what he thinks Dubis could be planning with a couple of their big pending free agents and some of that cap space. But before we dig into that, we do have to discuss game time, which is a new sponsor here at Locked-on. Buying tickets to your favorite events should not be stressful. And that's why there's game time, which is the fastest and easiest way to buy tickets for all the sports, music, comedy, and theater review. With killer deals on last-minute tickets and their best price guarantee, you can stop stressing over the tickets and start getting hyped for the fun that you will have. It is the place for last-net ticket deals. Again, forget planning months in advance.

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Last minute tickets, lowest price guaranteed. We're back here on this episode of the Lockdown Penguins podcast. I am your host, Andrew Hodes. I have Jesse Marshall from the Athletic here. So Dubus was asked quite a bit of questions during his press conference, Jesse. Just about the future of the team, what he's looking to add, mentioned forward depth. He mentioned the back end, which we'll get into in a second. But he was asked about the big elephant in the room, which is the goaltending position, which was Sanjari.

And he didn't really commit either way. He said he would look to look at the market. look at the trade options and if Tristan is the best option there, he would bring him back. But based off that answer, I didn't really get a good vibe that he was going to bring him back just because I think he's going to look for someone who's a bit more cheaper. When you heard that answer and when you really just think about the goaltending market as a whole, Jesse, do you expect Tristan Jari to be the Penguins number one net minder next year? No.

I think he and Elliot said this, you know, and I had expected this hunter before Elliot said it. I think he's looking for term. I don't think he's in a position in his career where he's like interested in a one-year bridge deal. What happens to him if he takes a one-year bridge deal with a Penguins, approve it, you know, contract, heavy air quotations, and he sucks. It's just falls flat on his face. What's his financial future look like? This is the cash in opportunity right now, right? right now. There's questions on his game that haven't been answered,

and he'll get paid despite them still being questions, right? Playoff performance is a big one. What's his capability in the playoffs? Right now, we don't know. Not good so far. What's his ability to stay healthy consistently? We don't know that either. Right now, not great.

But nobody's going to care. Evolving Wild is a site that I trust with my heart when it comes to contract projections. I think they get it right a lot, and I think their process is sound. They've got Tristan Jari making like $5, $6 million next year with term. And I think that's reasonable to expect. I think someone's going to do that. I just don't think it's going to be Kyle Dubas. I don't think it can be, right?

No. I think, and by the way, just as a side note, I think it's stupid, period, to give your goaltender term, unless you have you have Patrick Waugh. Great, you got Patrick Wall, lock him up. Give him a hundred year contract. Henrik Lundquist, 100 years, great. I don't care what you do. But, yeah, a great one, right?

But how many guys did we just name? Right, three over a generation, right? These guys don't grow on trees, Hunter, and I just, I'm against the thought, period, point blank, all things nonwithstanding of giving a goaltender term. I think that's a crazy thing to do. So three to four years is like my comfort level in that space. And again, I just don't, I don't, I think he's going to get way more than that. Yeah.

And especially for someone who has been inconsistent throughout his career. He was good not this past season, but the season before that before he got hurt. I would argue, Hunter, he was good last year when he was healthy. Yeah. Like his replacement against league average are generally really positive or good, right? But the problem is, is like there's always this. This is the Tristan Jari experience in a nutshell to me. Get hurt, okay?

Get better, get better, get better, get better, get better, get better, get better, get hurt. Get better, get better, get better, get better. So, like, the life that you have at that peak of the mountain is very short, right? It's very short-lived. And then what drags that peak down is, like, the ramp up you have to have in getting healthy. And then last year, that ramp up never came because he was hurt the entire time. Start to finish. Hurt from start to finish.

And they never addressed the backup situation. So they had to overplay him, right? They had to consistently lean on them in situations. They probably weren't comfortable doing so. So I think you need two goaltenders. Boy, what a math. That was going to be my next question to you. Like, would you get rid of Casey to Smith as well.

Yeah, yeah, I would. I would start. You got to just start from scratch, which is hard to do, man. Like, what a difficult ask on Dubas right out of the gate, right? Is not only do you have to address, you know, I'm sure we'll get into the defense, I'm sure we're running forward. But the goaltending is the biggest elephant in the room. You said it and you introduced the segment.

That is the fact. This team needs someone who can give them an average performance consistently. it's crazy to say that, but that's what they need. And they get into the playoffs with it, frankly, last season. If somebody's just average for them all year long, great, 60 games of average, they're in the playoffs. They didn't get that. They didn't get that. And too often, you know, they live and die by the sword, Hunter.

They're a risky team. They love the forecheck. They love to activate their defense in nonsensical situations sometimes, which we'll see, you know, if Todd Reardon were to float about and get another job somewhere. We'll see if that changes any. but, you know, they have a license to play loose, right? They do at the end of the day. You got to have at least average goaltending if you're going to play hockey like that.

They didn't get a save when they needed it enough last year. So, yeah, I've rebuilt the whole thing. You know, the one thing you could say about Kyle Dubus is this. And I wrote this in my article for the athletic this week. His goal, I give his grade in goaltending management a C minus. He never found a long-term solution. No, he did. in times where he bombed he also found somebody that worked there was like a ying yang to his

goaltending signings like for every crap one there was a good one that never stayed healthy or kept it together the whole time but he he has shown a pension for being able to address goaltending quickly on the fly in in an unconventional fashion so i think that's good um flip a coin as whether it's going to work out you know i think it's like is what are we stuck with here but you know i think he's shown a pension to do that so and with that Do you expect him to go via the free agent route, even though the class is not that good? Or do you think, Jesse, he's going to try to go the trade route and maybe get one of those big time goleys who are out there? Yeah, maybe not even a big time goalie hunter, right?

Like, you could go knock on the door in Arizona. I mean, the future of that team is a disaster. And you have no idea what's happening. And they've got a heck of a goaltender down there that you might be able to snack. You and I both said, I think at one point or another, Aidan Hill was the name that we loved. You could probably toss that in the toilet and flush it, you know, given the work that he's put in a Stanley Cup final. Oh, get too much money. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. No, priced out, right. So, yeah, I mean, the other options out there, what's available, right? Okay. I don't know. I'm not crazy about, I don't know, Cam Talbot. Frederick Anderson is a guy who has a lot of history with Caldubus. And, you know, could potentially see a reunition.

I mean, even though he went to Jack Campbell over him. so. But, you know, I don't know. Like you said, I think if you're going to get a backup, let's put it like this. If you're going to get a good backup, I think you could do that through free agency. I think that's the crop where you go get a backup. If you need a starter, I think you go probably address that through a trade. And if you do get a starter, I think you've been banging this drum. I have said this on my show in the rest times. Jesse, please do not go out and trade for John Gibson. He's not that guy anymore. He has not been that guy for since 2018 or 2019.

He is not worth it. Yeah, I said, you know, he was from Oregon. He was some goalie that was from Portland, Oregon. I don't think anybody would really care. You know, it's the Pittsburgh connection. And I want to be clear, man. Like, he's not horrible. Okay?

It's not like, it's not like the bottoms falling out, right? But like we, what's 2023, right? We have the ability to account for his contacts. Yes, the ducks are bad. Right. Adam Gretz pointed this out. His backups are outperforming him. Right. So it's not the ducks. You can't blame the environment. His other goalies that he's on his same team as him are in the same environment and are playing better. I think it's just that he's underwhelming, man. That's at the end of it's the name power, the town power, the recognition that sort of like encompasses that. That's what this is about. It's certainly not about recent performance. And, you know, I'll cite a study that I put on my Twitter this week in a person who wrote it. I don't know. There's only so much I can keep up here. I have a two-year-old. You're lucky I'm even here. Somebody wrote an article this week. I put it on my Twitter about how a player's individual war impact hunter, right? Like the way that they impact your

team statistically does not highly change team to team. Right. So if I'm a two-war forward, I'm a two-war forward in Pittsburgh, Florida, Calgary, and Vancouver, right? You put me in any of those environments, I'm going to give you the same feedback. It changes based on like generational talents and some players are really good, obviously. So like, yeah, there are exceptions to this rule, but for the most part, impacts don't change with environment and environment doesn't affect impact like you think it does, right? So that's just something I'd call out for people that are interested in like this redemption story. You know, like the penguins, quote unquote, rehabilitating defensemen, right, and being this like school of it, it's just sensible deployment.

in it, man, they don't fix things as much as they just bring people in and deploy them in a fashion that makes sense and is suited to their skill. That's what makes Sullivan's good at most of the time when it comes to defensemen, not forwards as much. But, you know, that's, that's a whole other conversation. But that's my thing is like, I, yeah, I, there you go. That's, I'll get down off my soapbox about John Gibson. No, no, you're fine.

I just, yeah, I'm not, I'm not fan of paying for him and just, that's 6.4 million for the next, what, three to four years? That's just... Well, what's the incentive for Calgary to eat that? You know, they're not going to... They're not incentivized to say, yeah, we'll take 75% of that contract. You know, like, that's not in their, their current environment that they're trying to build up there. So, yeah, I'm with you.

Yeah, that would make sense. And then he was not asked about this during his press conference, but I'm wondering what the status will be of Jason Zucker, 27 goals this past season, had one of the finest seasons of his career. He did say, though, that, you know, he mentioned, Jake next to Sid, mentioned Malkin with whoever he can put around him. But he did say that he's like, do we need another piece to supplement those guys up there? And that was like, okay, he looks like he could be looking, he looks like he could be deciding about making a splash, whether it's for agency or via trade of a top six winger.

With that, do you expect him to really go into contract negotiations wanting Zucker to say, or is Zucker just going to price himself out of the city? I think the bummer, Hunter, is that he probably is priced out at the point where he finally got it together and gave a Pittsburgh good return, you know, which is kind of like what we were waiting for this entire time. And, you know, injury and circumstance kind of robbed the city of that. But I don't know, man. I'd love to have him back at a reasonable cost. That would require him to take a pay cut, I think a little bit based on what he could get on the open market. I haven't done a contract potential run for him yet.

I should do that and see what it is on evolving hockey. I don't know. I haven't looked yet. But I'd imagine it's going to be, you know, pretty penny man. Especially because let me say this, you have to consider the flavor of the national hockey league right now. Seattle and Florida both just set the world on fire with their forecheck, right? They took the top off the can and let the forecheck go. I think that's going to be the way of the world, right?

Mike Sullivan steered the boat that way a little bit when he took over the penguins, but now I think it's gone off the Niagara Falls and a good, and that's great for hockey, by the way. But guys like Jason Zucker, tenacious four checker, puck retrieval ability, dump and chase, ability to go up ice and attack. People are going to be all over that. And I just think that the penguins are probably better served to go out and try to get like Michael Bunting. There's the Michael Bunting reference.

I mean, hey, I'm all for it, man. I'm all for it. Give me bunting Malkin. Very Caldubis-like move. You can go into a free agency. I would love someone like Tyler Bertuzi, but he's going to price himself out way. What about Alex Colorn?

Isn't he in his, what was he, 33 now? So you're not going to get younger with the unrestricted crop of reagents. That's right there. Like, there's no, especially I think anyone really impactful. But yeah, no, I mean, Bertuzi's out. I don't think there's any route to that

without like jettisoning Jake Gensel first, which, you know, is a possibility, I guess, right? But, you know, I, uh, there's nothing that like, I think you really, you look at. I mean, I think Ryan O'Reilly is another one. You know, I think it would be great to get that center depth rounded out, but I just don't think they're even in on that. You know, I think that even is probably too far out of their, out of their price range. They do have to figure out a third line center situation, man. Like you can't go into next season with what, Jeff Carter's your third line center, Ryan Paley.

They will have to go out and acquire someone to play in that spot. Like they have no choice. Yeah, 100%. Agree. No, I mean, you have to. Yeah. And I'm all about like, Palin could be the fourth line center. That's great.

Cool. No trouble for me on that part. But yeah, 100%. You got to, you absolutely 110%. Oh, maybe it's Kerfoot. I don't know. But I keep down. What I'm doing is like naming former Kyle Dubus associates right now.

I feel like that's what we've devolved it to do here. But I feel like there's credence to it too. It's not like, I don't know. I feel like I don't feel like he's poorly nepotistic. Does that make sense? Like I don't feel like he goes back to people that have failed him. I feel like he goes back to people that did a good job for him at one point, which I'll take.

I'll take that over like, you know. People who were good like six years ago. Yeah. Like the Jim, sorry, the Jim Rutherford approach, you know, to signing a certain Ron Hextall too. Or Hector, yeah. But yeah, I don't know.

I think that I'm excited to see the possibility. I think Hunter, my prediction is this. We get at least one major trade that makes us go like, ooh, a little bit. Not in a bad way, but makes us as Penguin fans, like maybe a little bit uncomfortable, right? Like, I think Penguin fans are going to have to maybe part with someone they really like. And that it might be uncomfortable for them, but might be necessary to kick this thing off and turn the boat around. the way it really needs to be turned around. So maybe that's Brian Russ.

I'm just throwing names out there. But I think that it's a lot easier to operate with a couple extra million dollars of space, and there's only one way to go about getting that. And this is the most amount of cap space they've had going into a UFA slash offseason. It's still not that much. That's the crazy part.

It's the most they've ever had. It's still not that much. I know. You have teams like Chicago who have probably, what, 40 million? I think it's probably, yeah. Yeah, look at the contracts they're giving out up there. yesterday they I mean I'd love to get one of those paydays

Andre that's nothing to see at 4. You guys you guys you could Hey I'll go 0 and 82 you pay me that money I don't care I won the whole game I'll try every shift but I don't care if we win or not I got my contract

yeah yeah and now I think one of those situations will be potentially towards the defense which we're going to get to coming up right after this but before we get into that we also have to discuss bird dog shorts

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I'm back in this episode of the Lockdown Penguins podcast. I'm your host, 100 hodies. Remember follow me on Twitter, Hunter Hodes. Follow this show you's Twitter, Elwhore St. Penguins. And, of course, thank you so much for making this your first lesson slash watch of the day. Okay, Jesse. So another thing that Kyle really discussed during his. presser and I probably said that at 5,000 times this episode was the back end.

And I read Josh's article in The Athletic today. I definitely have gotten the sense that he's not going to say it, but I get the sense, and this is just me guessing, that he's not happy with how that blue line looks right now with how it's mainly just Crystal Tang, Marcus Pedersen, and a whole lot of blah, to be honest. You got P. I hope PJ, Petrie's overpaid. Jan Ruda, who doesn't really do much of that.

anything. Chabarweedle does what he can do just a lot cheaper. Right. Doom one's walking. You have P.O. Joseph, who's still decent, but I don't know how good he's going to turn into tight. It's still there. Do you expect there to be a major trade or just a major overhaul of the back end this offseason? It has to be. Yeah, it has to be. You know, I think the, if we follow the evolution of this and like where it went, you know, the idea was we've got to get bigger, right? We've got it stronger. We're going to get tougher. Last year? Yeah. Yeah. year and that ultimately meant worse, right? I think ultimately that's the direction it ended up. So, yeah, you've got to make, you've got to make changes. You know, I think Chris LaTang,

no issue, right? You said it. Marcus Pedersen, you know, no issue. I think Dimitri Kulakov experience is probably over, right? Anyone one? Yeah, you could probably move Jeff Petri when it's, I think, 15 teams on him maybe it's it's a 15 no 15 yeah so there's possibility there like a little bit more I think um I think Yon Rood is the one that's the one that you look at and you that sticks out like a like a sore thumb you know um that say like hey you can probably move this player and get something you know decent for him um you know the name that I think like has come up uh to me a bunch that I'll throw out there is Carson Sossi um you know that's coming out of

Seattle has a history of linkage to Kyle Dubus, good penalty killer, which the penguins could really use. So that's that's one I'd think about. There's a lot of names I'd avoid, to be frank with the honor, like Matt Dumba, no thank you, right? I think if you could find a way to get Goss Disparer, great. That'd be a great ad. I don't know how you do that. But again, we're in the same kind of lane here when we're talking about, you know, this is trade and sign, right? Like, you're going to need to move to add. So I think you potentially have someone coming in from being signed somewhere, maybe. But I think at the end of the day, maybe there's a player for player trade you make, like a D for D swap you do with another team based on a need that they have.

And I'm talking about, you know, with Jeff Petrie, you have the ability to have a power play point producer for a first or second unit potentially. And that talent may still be there for someone. So, you know, you need swap with people potentially. Yeah. But I, yeah, to answer your core question, I would 100% like to see it get overhauled. I'd like to see more. And it's funny to say this. But like, I do think this is where Kyle Dubus has done his best work.

okay like ultimately like going out and getting a marked giordano um the leafs breakout was really patient and i know that people think of like the leaps is this fast attacking team and that's true but they do a lot of that off the counter that's off the counter they've still they've stolen pucks and now they go back in a count their actual controlled breakout is methodical slow and will be restarted ad nauseum until it's right that's that was the one they those forwards were looped back like they were in the day 21500. If it wasn't there, like they were going to come in. So the reason I say this is it required a type of defense.

That defense was patient, patient, patient, methodical, could handle the puck, could distribute the puck, and could skate. There were a lot of guys that came through that worked out really well in that regard. I mentioned Mark Geronano as being one of them. You know, you could go, I think even further back. Jay Brody, sorry, the name is skit me for a second. T.J. Brody is when I talked about extensively that fit that need and was super good for Kyle Dubas. So he's got a track record, I think, of going out and finding guys that could do

this job. You know, the rehabilitation, if you will, of Cody C.C. really started there and ended in Pittsburgh. So I trust that those, the player evaluation decisions will be strong. The track record of that is there. But to your point, you know, yes, it needs to change and yes, it's going to be a heavy lift. He also went on and got Jake Muzon when Muzon was still Pretty good. So he has shown an ability to know who good defensemen are in this league and pay a premium to get them. You know, so whether you're trading for, I don't know. I mean, I've been throwing out Noah Hannathan out there.

I put Matt Grizzlik on my show yesterday because Boston has a cap crunch coming. Maybe you could do Brandon Carlo if they want to trade him or something like that for the right side. I'm not really sure, but I just, I know that they need to get so on, to play on the left side in the top four. If your top four is P.O. Joseph and Marcus Pederson, I mean, I mean, I mean, no disrespect. to either one of those two. No, no. And, oh, Hunter, you know, I'm very bullish on Marcus Pedersen, but he has to have somebody else there with him that's

got a little bit more oomph, if you know what I'm saying. Yeah. And I mean, no disrespect to P.O. Joseph, too. I think he's a fine NHL defenseman, but if those two of your top four on the left side, there's problems. Yeah, 100%. You need to go out there and get someone who's... You could argue Columbus is doing...

Go ahead. You could argue Columbus is doing better than you, right? They're the class of the Metro. What a contract that is. Damon Severson, eight years, 6. $6.25 million. You know, that's someone who is trying to save his job and you all know, kick a line right now. And if they do bad again next year, he's probably going to get fired.

If you make it that far, yeah. But yeah, I definitely do think they're going to do make some serious changes here. You know, I've been beating the drum. I think Crystal Tang needs a new partner to play with. I don't, you can do Marcus Pedersen with him, but I think Pedersen probably better suited to play on the second period where he's not eating as many minutes per night. And then the other thing, Jesse, if you can go out and get four more bottom. six forwards. I think that's a job well done. Yeah. I know you're going to have, it's probably likely you'll have Jeff Carter playing,

even though that's going to make everyone sad, but that's just how it is with this contract, unless you can come to an agreement where he sits in the press box every night or just find a way to for him to move wave is no trade clause, no move clause, excuse me, to go somewhere, but I think it's unlikely at this point. Yeah. Ryan Paling is a free agent or RFA. Drew O'Connor, same thing. I think that they'll both work. turn. Outside of that, though, everyone else in the bottom six from last year can go. And this is another area where I do think Kyle Dubus has done a great job over the years, Jesse.

David Kamp, for example. He found Michael Bunting, who eventually played in the top six. He found Ilya McKeyev, who is now, of course, in Vancouver. He's found a lot of these good bottom six players who can produce, who can play in the defensive zone, who can foreshack, can do basically everything really well. well and compliment that those core four players in Toronto. And I do think you're going to see that happen here, whether it's be a trade or whether it's be a free agency. Yeah.

No, there's no choice. At the end of the day, the top six was good last year and they weren't good enough to carry the team in. You know, you can't look around you at these teams in the metro that you're competing with and take a look at what they're rolling on four lines, right? That is a hallmark of what you need to be. successful right now. I think that's where Mike Sullivan is at his best is when he can roll four lines confidently. So yeah, it's going to, I mean, everything we've just said is, look, it's going to be a huge

lift, but like it is. It's going to be a huge lift. It's going to be a really difficult thing to pull off, but I don't think he has a choice. You can't go in to, you know, your season with a bunch of potential six goals scores in your bottom six. Sorry. It's not going to work. Show me a team that's doing that. Yeah. Show me a team.

Yeah. Right. There's all the evidence you need, I guess. Oh, man. I would just say, I, I, that's the first thing I thought it was Ron Hextall smirk when he's like, well, Josh Hartwell's got to be a Pittsburgh penguin. And he was like, I'm like, okay, man. Yeah.

Unreal. Oh, that'll just never cease too many to be. Moving on a little bit. How do you see the role, you wrote about this for the athletic, and I really liked your piece. How much do you think you see Sullivan and Dubus seeing eye to eye going forward? Because it never looked like him and X all. No, rarely if ever. Yeah.

Ricou was probably the only player. Yeah. You could say is like one that really fit that bill. I wrote, I think to sum my article up on her, I think Kyle Dubus got in trouble when he went away from his, his, evaluation tools that got him in the position that he is, right? Because there wasn't, you know, there wasn't an analytical tool that would have said Nick Folino is a good call, right, for that team. And I know, like, the common thing to say is, well, that's a Shanahan move.

I'm not doing that. Kyle Dubos was the general manager. I'm going to treat him like he was the general manager. I'm not interested in the Toronto power struggles. You know, these are moves that are on his name, like it or not. We have to evaluate them as such. I think every move he made that went poorly was a move that he steered off his path

and stepped into like this, you know, the unbeaten weeds. When he's got his process dialed in and he's got the right people with him and his team's rolling, he wins most of the time in terms of what he gets in terms of the draft. He's got a very, very stringent best player available policy.

And I remember reading a quote from him years ago where he said, You know, drafting for a need is stupid because what's my need from five years from today? How am I supposed to know that? Like, if I had that kind of crystal ball, I'd have all kinds of Stanley Cups. I'd know the answers to every question that exists in the universe. So I love that. That's why you get good players early from him, right?

And even when he trades first round picks, he swings and hits on the second rounders. Or when he does keep a high pick, you get Matthew Nyes, right? So, like, these are, you know, these are all good things, I think, that you look forward. to, but when it goes bad, it goes bad because he steers away from that. And I think that's a lesson learned hopefully from him, right? And that's like a growth period where he's like, oh, you know, I learned that if I steer off the beaten path, it doesn't go. So maybe we'll see what we get. But like, yes, I would say it'd be hard for him, Hunter, to have a worse relationship than that X-Dall did with Sullivan, you know, and that's just based on evidence. I don't

not giving you any insider info. I don't know anything. Look at the players he brought in. They didn't fit the system at all. And I think that Mike Sullivan probably stubbornly kept playing them to prove that point. Like, I don't think he was going to overhaul his whole system in the middle of the year and try to find some bizarre little ground for a general manager that kept giving him players that couldn't forecheck. So I expect that element to be strong again. You know, I think the league's trending.

I mentioned it. I think the league's training in that direction. I think the penguins need to hard commit to it, get back to it. You can't make 30 plus, you know, 33 plus year old. players faster, but you could surround them with players that make them look faster and retrieve pucks well and do a lot of that dirty work. And, you know, there are names out there that fit that bill. There's a good chunk of them. That's for sure. You know, one thing I did notice with Kyle Dupis's history going into the draft as well, just to change years a little bit.

He likes to trade down a lot. He's a big one of stacking up draft picks. And that's Amy Wonder, Jesse, would he trade out of the 14th pick to go down a little bit? That's, kind of what's on my thing? I think so here's I think let me I'm going to tie this back into what I just said

is that it's a best player available strategy so if he's his guy at the top of his board is very clearly going to be available five six seven picks from now great what do I care right

so I think there's a business where you get into calling people who are you taking who are you taking who are you taking like can I can we broker like non you know non handshake or handshake agreement deals

that I'd like to move down what can we do here like you may see a lot of that yeah, you may see a lot of that. I think the Penguins have the crack at a really good player at 14, a number of them. I would expect to see him probably stick there unless he can use that pick to safely jettison salary. That is the one way I would consider getting rid of the first rounder.

I know it seemed short-sighted to do that. But you mentioned it earlier, Hunter. This team has the most cap space open to them that they've had open in a long time. And if you could find a way to open up even more just by sacrificing 14, I'm all four. it. There's nothing you're going to get at 14 is going to, this boat has sunk from a prospect perspective and you are not patching the holes by drafting at 14. You're not. It's a nice to have is what it is. It's a nice to have. It's a luxury. It is not a need. So if, you know, I think about from, for me, Hunter, I think about it from a creativity perspective for him to be able to

use that pick to unload money. I would 100% be interested in that. I saw yesterday, you know, Kyle Davidson, Chicago Blackhawks said he's be willing to take on. contracts. He just has to talk to teams. And I was like, okay, 14 and maybe McCall Granlin for the 19th overall pick, something like that work for you. You could still get, you could still get Axel Ska and Pelica at 19. I'm fine with that. I'm just kidding. That's my personal bias at work. I see I, anywhere the Penguins go, as long as they could still get, still get him. I'm happy with it. I like him. I like Gabe Perot. I like Braden Yeager. You know, Yeager, you could probably get probably below 19, to be honest. At least that's, you know, from what I've,

But I didn't from the tape I've watched with him But I'll probably do a bunch more draft prep In the next couple of weeks But no It's going to get pretty busy here That's for sure I'm not surprised he hasn't done anything yet Because he's probably still trying to get to know people

Yeah In the organization I would assume though I was out of Mike and Tony's And had a gyro He's probably sleeping for the next time We're two hours Oh I'm sure

I hope he's been taking Lisa Permanis by now To get a sandwich I get I know Somebody tweeted me today And they're like hey I'm coming to Pittsburgh For the first time I'm going to Permianis

What else should I do I was like don't go there Don't go there No disrespect you for me. I love that place, but pick somewhere else to go, maybe. Then get back to me. Go down to Rollins at the strip. There you go.

Get a lobster roll, Hunter. Tell me about the lobster roll down there. Size of your head. Barry. And a Bloody Mary. If you're going to Rollins, you've got to get a bloody Mary too. Yeah. If I were Jen Balano, I would have sent Kyle to Rollins.

Maybe that's where she took them. Maybe that's why. Maybe that's why I took the job. Yeah. This is unsponsored Rollins podcast. Yes. Call Hunter and locked on for me. more information about picking up a sponsorship.

Follow me on that. I'll maybe get a sponsor for one at some point. I love their sandwiches. But yeah, I mean, this is a very exciting time. I don't think you'll see any moves from this team until the draft. I mean, I know there's been a fair amount of movement this week, Jesse, from around the league. Yeah.

It's pretty crazy with some of the trades we've seen. I don't think Kyle will do anything, though. He's just going to be patient for the next couple of weeks and then maybe try to see what's out there. Real quick, though, to end it. Sound like a final two games to one for the Vegas goal. of nights, the Panthers basically saved their season on Thursday night with a little over two minutes left. Matthew Kachuk showed that he still has that dog in him. He's one of the best players in the league.

How do you see the rest of the series going? Florida has to prove to me that they can continue to do what they did last night and getting to the tough areas of the ice in front of the net. Vegas has been super good at killing Florida cycle before it has an opportunity to really take off and get going. But hit them off the counter, their gap control defensively has been super progressive and Florida's had a really hard time working around that. If they equalize, I think we got a totally different series. It's the stupidest statement. Of course we have a different series on our hands.

But you get what I'm saying. Like I think if a two two series is a coin flip for me, especially if Florida can have Vegas second thinking, second guessing that tough gap. And what I'm talking about Hunter is don't, you know, for Florida, I'd love to see them lean off of dump and chase and start carrying pucks in more. making Vegas pay for being so aggressive on the blue line.

That's how you start having people second-guess themselves. You could start changing up what you're doing on your attack, make a little area passes to work around guys. If that's the way this thing goes and that's the way this thing plays out, that's the adjustment that there are adjustments that need to be made in that direction. If they don't get made, I think Florida is going to lose. Yeah, that's very fair. And I'm excited to see if those adjustments are made, you know, heading into game

because that's another must-win game here. For the cat, that building was rocking. I love seeing the rats go on the ice. It's their first and, like, a final win. I don't like that at all. PTSD for me as a child, man. I remember the other year before I was born. I was a-

I know. You are, yeah, but I was a child. It was a very presciful child. And I remember, I remember Tom Barrasso hiding in the net, like leaned forward underneath the net because the rats are coming down. And plus, like, the story of the origin of that is just so gross, dude. Like, Scott Mowling, he just shot a rat with a stick. Like that like

And then it took off like And people went crazy about it That's just a weird tradition to me It is but The building's rocking though You can't take that away from them No no You cannot that's for sure

But I think that will do it For this episode The Locked on Penguins podcast Jesse What work do you have coming next With the athletic or McKean's hockey Yeah man I'm I've been saying I'm gonna do this for a long time

And I still have to do it But I've been working on a lot of video analysis Of like What I've been talking to you about about this four-check system and these teams going real heavy on it and how I think it's going to be the new trend. So I got some stuff coming on that and kind of breaking those systems down and talking a little bit more about them. That's awesome. I can't wait to read it. You can follow Jesse on Twitter at Jay Marshoff. And of course, you can follow me on Twitter at 100 hodies. That would do it for this one.

I'll be back with another episode for you all on Monday. Hopefully this end of the final will be 2-2. Since I did pick the series to go to seven games, I don't want it to be over very quickly. but we will see what happens at game full would be on Saturday, and we'll see if maybe by some miracle Kyle who decides to do anything over the weekend, but probably not. He's probably just going to keep getting to know everyone and going to more places in this city. But again, that would do it for this one.

Thank you all so much for tuning in, and I'll see you all on Monday.