Locked On Penguins - Daily Podcast On The Pittsburgh Penguins - Penguins end 2024 on a losing note in Detroit with some questionable officiating

Episode Date: January 1, 2025

The Penguins were unable to close out 2024 on a winning note, getting tripped up by the Red Wings on New Year's Eve in Detroit. Patrick and Hunter break down the game, including why this team, despite its recent run of good play, continues to not start games on time. They also go on an impassioned discussion about officiating in the NHL, especially last night's matchup. Then, after only getting two of a possible six points in the last week, the Penguins now have less margin for error as the month of January presents a huge challenge with playoff and championship-caliber teams on the schedule. They get you ready for the upcoming month and what the Penguins have to do to stay in the hunt. Finally, to close out the show, they hand out their weekly MVP in a quick Warrior Helmet Wednesday and talk about some expectations for 2025. Support Us By Supporting Our Sponsors!GametimeDownload the Gametime app, create an account, and use code LOCKEDONNHL for $20 off your first purchase. Terms apply. Download Gametime today. What time is it? Gametime.FanDuelYou can start the season with a big return on FanDuel. New customers can place a FIVE DOLLAR bet and you’ll get started with TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY DOLLARS in BONUS BETS - if you win your first FIVE DOLLAR BET ! Visit FANDUEL.COM to get started. FANDUEL DISCLAIMER: 21+ in select states. First online real money wager only. Bonus issued as nonwithdrawable free bets that expires in 14 days. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Gambling Problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit FanDuel.com/RG (CO, IA, MD, MI, NJ, PA, IL, VA, WV), 1-800-NEXT-STEP or text NEXTSTEP to 53342 (AZ), 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat (CT), 1-800-9-WITH-IT (IN), 1-800-522-4700 (WY, KS) or visit ksgamblinghelp.com (KS), 1-877-770-STOP (LA), 1-877-8-HOPENY or text HOPENY (467369) (NY), TN REDLINE 1-800-889-9789 (TN) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The Penguins head into 2025 on a losing note. Hunter and I are going to discuss a loss to the Detroit Red Wings on New Year's Eve, as well as talk about some expectations and the road ahead in 2025 on this edition of the Locked-on Penguins podcast. You're Locked-on Penguins, your daily podcast on the Pittsburgh Penguins, part of the Locked-on Podcast Network, your team every day. Hello and happy new year from the locked on penguins podcast. I am one of your hosts, Patrick Damp. You can follow me across all social media at synonym 4. Wet joined as always once again in 2025 with my partner in crime, your co-host,

the one and only Hunter Hodes. You can follow him on Twitter at Hunter Hodes. You can give our show's account a follow at L.O. underscore Penguins. and of course we hope and appreciate that you make us part of your daily routine in 2025. And don't forget we're free and available wherever you get your podcast as well as YouTube. If you're following us on YouTube, hit that notification button so you can be among the first to know when we drop our daily Monday through Friday episodes. So Hunter, let's waste no more time in case you hadn't heard me say it a million times. It is now 2025.

We are in a brand new year, but it's the same two dudes in hats talking about the Pittsburgh Penguins. And they had a game last night in Detroit that they lost four to two. I'm going with three to two because I usually don't really count empty net goals as goals, but I digress. There's a lot to unpack on this one, despite it only being a four two game. And I know what everybody wants us to get to. I certainly want to get to it. and I will. But before we get into the officiating in last night's game, Hunter,

your thoughts on the Penguins game on New Year's Eve. Not good enough. Those first 10 to 15 minutes, Pat, they were pretty outclassed by the Red Wings. And that's kind of concerning because the starts lately have not really been that good. It was the same thing against the Islanders in the first half of that back-to-back, right, where they were kind of outclassed by the Islanders. And yeah, I know the Islanders were pretty fired up for that game,

considering they had just gotten blown out. the Buffalo Sabers, but some of the Penguins starts lately have really not been that good. Yeah, they're on this nice stretch, but some of the starts during that stretch have not been good. They're not the ones pushing play to start the game. You can't be starting a game like you did against the Red Wings and expect to win. Yeah, they were able to tie the game late in the first period. They were able to tie the game again in the third period, but you cannot have a start like that. They didn't have a shot on goal for the first half of the first period.

I mean, against a team like the Red Wings, who are one of the worst defensive teams in the league, I know there are only three games into the Tom McClellan era, who is a pretty solid defensive coach. I think he's going to turn that around at least a bit in Detroit. That's still, again, not good enough when this team has given up quite a few shots per game, quite a few goals per game. They haven't gotten good goaltending. You're not even getting any offensive zone time. Like, you cannot win games with that type of start.

You really can't. And the thing that is really puzzling about it and especially was puzzling last night is the literal first shift of the game, the first 30 to 60 seconds of the game. The Penguins actually came out pretty well. They had a solid chance to start. Shot gets blocked, goes into the corner. Detroit eventually breaks it out. But after that, they just went back to sleep. They started off quite literally started off in a not so bad way.

And then it just all went out the window. Like you said, they go seven, eight, nine, ten minutes without a shot on goal. They give up the first goal of the of the game. And they just weren't ready to play right off the gate. But they were able to get it back, especially because this is not a very good Detroit team. We talked about that yesterday on the preview episode. And they're able to tie it up with a goal from Drew O'Connor, who gets his first since the eighth grade picnic. Nice to see him finally get that monkey off of his back because you could see after he scored last night.

And this is another place I want to go before. Yes, I am going to continue to make you wait, dear listener, before we talk about the officiating. You could see after he scored, it was quite literally like a thousand pound weight was lifted off of his shoulder. He started to look a lot more like the Drew O'Connor that we saw to end last season. he was definitive with the puck. He was skating with a lot more confidence. He was playing a game that had us ready to say he could have been. And maybe still could be if he goes on a heater, a 20 goal score in the NHL.

Yeah, no, I agree with you. I mean, you saw the celebration after he scored that goal. He got so fired up. All of his teammates came over to him to give him the biggest hug. They all knew what that goal meant to him. And it was a great finish. Also, really nice job from Cody Glass. to drive to the net like that before firing that puck to O'Connor,

and he made no mistake with that one time. That was a goal a long time in the making. He had a really nice second half of a back-to-back against the Islanders. I think he got a little bit unlucky. But before that, he had a lot of really underwhelming games, a lot of them in a row. So it was nice to see him get two goals in this one, and that's really now two strong games from him in a row.

He's able to really build on these two performances, especially getting these two goals. That's, I think, going to be huge for not just him down the stretch, but for potentially this team as they try to stay in the wildcar race. I also like that he got the power play goal, cleaned up the garbage right in front of the net. I loved Eric Carlson's shoot first mentality there. He was able to fire that one-timer, scramble in front of the net, and then O'Connor is right there to clean up the garbage.

Really nice shot for him and a great game from him. Yeah, he played very well, even with the penalty at the end, and that is the transatlantic. I need to talk about this. Listen, we just spent about six minutes talking about how this was not a great effort. The penguins slept through the first 10 to 12 minutes of the game, fell into an early hole, giving up the first goal. But you can't talk about this game without talking about the officiating last night. And I'm going to bracket it this way. I'm going to start it with this. The penguins did themselves no favors. You take off half of a piece.

period, you fall down one nothing, regardless of your opponent in the National Hockey League. You are not helping your own cause. But two of three Detroit goals were direct results of penalties and missed calls, including the game winner. So early in the game, Evgeny Malkin, and this is the shift that I'm talking about, their literal first shift. He gets tripped up right in front of the net with the puck on a scoring chance. the officials just look at it.

You minutes later, he gets ever so slightly a hook or a slash onto the hip of a Detroit Red Wings player and he goes for slashing, I believe it was. Okay, you know what? Sometimes that happens in a game later on in the game, again of Gennie Malkin. Netfront scramble. He gets cross-checked from behind into the post face first by Ben Sharrat. But refs again right there. Even if you call that both ways and just say,

hey, listen, it's a net front scramble. You're getting two for roughing. You're getting two for roughing. Go sit down. We're going to play four on four, coincidental five on fives, whatever. But absolutely nothing called. Then with the penguins on the power play, they blow a play dead because they're going to call Brian Rust for splashing.

The refs talk about it and say, no, the guy broke his own stick. That's still a penalty. He slashed Brian Russ stick and broke his own stick and they called nothing. It should have been a five on three. So again, terrible officiating. And then finally, this leads to the game winning goal in the third period. Mo Sider gets absolutely burned by Brian Rush short-handed, hauls them down, and they don't call anything.

And just seconds later, Detroit goes down the ice, takes the lead on the power play, and listen, again, penguins did themselves no favors. It was a sloppy game by them. But realistically, yeah, you get no asterisk in the standings.

They come out of a soft part of their schedule with only two of a possible six points, which puts them in a not a bad position, but not a great one either. But there were moments of this game. What do we always hear from NHL anonymous officials, whether it's refs or people in the NHL head offices? Well, you know, we don't want officiating to impact the outcome of a game.

By not making those calls, you have now officially impacted the outcome of a game. And Detroit deserved the two points. They played a lot better overall. but there were a lot of moments where the officiating helped them quite a bit. It's great that Pat is finally starting to see the light of what I have been saying on the show for the last couple weeks now. The officiating has gotten really bad this year.

To start the season, I felt it was fine. They were actually making correct calls. They weren't missing a lot of stuff. But right now, especially these last two to three weeks, the officiating has been disgraceful. And that's what it was on New Year's Eve in Detroit. The officials that ref that game, I'm going to go as far as to say this, they shouldn't rough a game for a long time. That was bull crap in the highest degree.

And I'm not going to sit here and say, oh, they're the main reason the Penguins lost. No, not going to sound like a sore loser with that. Penguins, they made their own bed. They didn't show up for the first 10 to 15 minutes. They also could kill off those penalties, considering they have one of the best penalty kills in the league. They had killed off 21 of 22 power plays heading into this game. and you allowed two power play goals and you lost the special teams battle.

Yeah, the Penguins Power Play scored one goal, but you still lost the special teams battle, even though coming in, you had the advantage for both because you have a top 10 powerplay and a top 10 penalty kill. So they made their bed, they got lying in it. That said, one of the factors in this game, one of the reasons why the Penguins lost was because the officials did not do their jobs. How you don't call that cross-check on Ben Chiron on the beginning Malkin is, lunacy. The ref is literally standing right there. He's looking at the play. Call a penalty.

You're later on in that game. You're right. Mo Sider gets burned. Brian Russ is about to potentially get that chance. Halls him down. Ref is staring right at it. No call. How are you as a referee going to be able to sleep well knowing that you missed easy calls like that that ended up making a big difference in the game? You call that there on Mo Sider. The Red Wings don't score that goal. Who knows if that game goes to overtime. Who knows if the penguins are able to steal two points out of that game. It's not good enough. And I keep saying this every year.

The officiating continues to get worse and worse and worse. And the league does nothing about it. I am so tired of the officiating in this league. I don't understand why they continually get worse and worse while Betman and Daly just sit up there and like, oh, no, our officials are great. Our officials are great. No, they're not. those that referee stuff last night that's like playoff officiating this is the regular season like

i just want consistency man that's all i ask for you want to call something like that malkins slash okay i want to see that called 10 times a game then because that's the type of slash that goes uncalled 10 times a game oh but we're going to call it this time no consistency that is the thing i want to see from officiating in this league man is consistency and we don't get it so i'm sorry i'm pretty fired about the officiating in this game because the penguins were pretty shafted. But again, they kind of made their own bed with the way they played. They could have played a lot better. It's something I always say.

Both can be true. The penguins made their own bed. They did not give their best effort, but they were also not helped at all by some pretty poor officiating. Both are allowed to exist. It doesn't have to be one or the other. But that is something that Hunter and I could probably rant about for three straight hours. And you've got more important things to do on New Year.

Day, then listen to that. So that is going to do it for the first segment. When we come back, I said in this segment, Penguins had a soft schedule to end 2024 to start 2025. They've got a bit of a gauntlet waiting for them. And we will talk about that when we come back right after this. We've got to tell you about our first sponsor, though, and that is Fandul. The NFL playoffs, they're almost here, but it's not too late to get on the regular season action

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All right, welcome back to the New Year's Day edition of Locked-on Penguins. I'm Patrick Damp, joined as always by the one and only Hunter Hodes. And this was a pretty easy end to 2024 for the Pittsburgh Penguins. You look at their schedule the last two and a half-ish weeks, Nashville, Philadelphia, the islanders, the red wings, a lot of teams that they are starting to get some separation from in the standings as they push towards the playoffs. But as we start 2025, the next three or so weeks are going to be a significantly harder challenge for the penguins. It all starts this weekend, Friday night, they head to sunrise to take on the Florida

Panthers, the defending Stanley Cup champions. Then on Sunday, it's off to Raleigh to face a team that they have been absolutely bullied by for quite some time. And that's the Carolina Hurricanes. Then they're at home for five games, but it is no cakewalk. They've got, it starts off with Columbus. Hopefully you can find a way to beat up on Little Brother. But then you've got the Edmonton Oilers.

You've got the Ottawa senators who you are deadlocked with. in a fight for the second wildcard spot. Then the Tampa Bay Lightning, who are always good, the Seattle Cracken, who are starting to figure it out a little bit in the Western Conference. Then you close out that three-week segment with Buffalo, who we know is miserable, but wouldn't put it past the Penguins to take that night off. Then it's the Washington Capitals,

who are suddenly one of the best teams in the Eastern Conference. So Hunter, this loss on New Year's Eve looms a little bit larger now because you're just one point out of the second wild card spot and you've got a lot of good teams coming on the horizon. And again goes back to another point that I've been making for the last couple of weeks. This is why you really needed to take advantage of this schedule to end 2024, you know, i.e. that soft schedule. Pat, their last three games, two against the Islanders, one against the Red Wings,

two out of six points. I'm sorry, that's not good enough. If you want to contend for the wild card spot throughout this year now, because I know Pat keeps saying, I know happy New Year, guys, because yes, it is January 1, happy New Year to everyone out there. He's probably said that 10 times on our show already. He'll probably say it a couple more times for our final segment. But you needed to bank those points.

You didn't have a good enough effort in the first half of the back-to-back. You win the second half, that's good. You needed to win that game against the Red Wings because now, your schedule is really about to heat up again. They faced another gauntlet like right around, you know, Thanksgiving into December. And they were able to pass that gauntlet. Well, you have another one coming up now.

Two more road games to end this week and weekend against the Panthers, who are great. The hurricanes, they've been struggling a little bit, but that's still a team that gives the penguins a lot of problems because they fire a lot of shots. They play very well defensively. They really don't give the penguins a lot in the offensive zone.

And it's just a really bad matchup of the penguins. It's been a bad matchup for them for the last few years. You know, I feel like these have been kind of 50-50s, but each one has gone the Hurricanes way because they're able to make one or two more plays compared to the Penguins. And both these games are on the road. You cannot go O-Fler this week in terms of points. You're going to have to find a way to split these two games against the Panthers and the Hurricanes.

Yeah, that's great. You already beat the Panthers once this year. but that game was a little bit fluky. The hurricanes, they've dominated them in both games that they have beaten the penguins in this year. And you need to find a way, again, to really get a split. Because after that, you mentioned it, they have the Edmonton Oilers coming in, who they have really struggled over the last few years against. It feels like every time the Penguins play the Oilers, they get absolutely blown out.

You have the Blue Jackets, which, you know, considering how the Blue Jackets have struggled in Pittsburgh, the Penguins, they need to find a way to win that game. Also, the Penguins are playing great at home lately. You have the senders coming to town on January 11th. that's a game where you need two points as well, especially when you look at the standings right now, Pat. You have to take two clean points.

Don't even give away a loser point there against the sentence. You have the lightning who you've already lost to once. You have Seattle. And then you have that massive seven-game road trip to end the month of January, which that's going to be tough. You have the California teams. You have Washington and there. And I know you've already beat Washington,

but that was Washington's probably their worst effort of the season, if I'm being honest. They even spoke to the media after the game saying like, yeah, we didn't expect. the penguins to play that hard. It's like, hmm, kind of a weird thing to say out wow, but whatever. But getting back to my original point, it's why points like these last three games are so precious this time of year, because those three games, those dropped points, that could be the difference late in the season

between you making the playoffs and you missing the playoffs. And you gave away four points just recently against two of the worst teams in the conference. For sure. And I don't want to overstate this or over exaggerate this because this isn't the end of the world. There's still just one point out of the wild card. You can only play the game in front of you. They are in the fight. And that is something that we asked of them on this show for this season. We just wanted them to make it interesting.

We don't mind if you lose, especially given what the plan is for this team retooling and rebuilding on the fly. Just don't get embarrassed. Just don't get your lunch tape. lunch money taken from you. And the last month, the close out 2024, they played pretty well. In fact, they didn't just play well. They resurrected their season because if you remember Thanksgiving Eve after that loss, we were all just like, okay, this is over. They're done. This season is a wash. It's over. Pack it in. Get what you can. The Utah game because they beat the Canucks

Thanksgiving Eve. So you mean the Utah game. Thanksgiving Eve is when it all began. But after the Utah game, it was time to pack it in. But now to bring this all full circle, you only get two of the six points available to you in the last three. And now your margin of error is much, much smaller. And no one would be surprised if, say, you lose to Florida, you squeak out a point against the hurricanes, you beat Columbus, excuse me. and then that little mini gauntlet, even though it's at home of Edmonton, Ottawa, Tampa Bay, Seattle, you might not come out 500 from that because these are all very good teams. But if you were to take more than two points in this last week, that's not going to be that detrimental.

Now, these games have a lot more purpose and you have to finish over 500 during this home, especially during that five-game homestand, or we could be right back where we were a month and a half ago talking about how they just need to start getting assets and pack it all in. But before we throw it to break, Hunter, anything you want to add about this upcoming month? No, not really. It's just it's going to be kind of like the gauntlet we just saw

where you were playing playoff contender after playoff contender. And they did really good with that gauntlet. Let's see if they can go two for two with this upcoming gauntlet. Huge, huge challenge. facing the penguins in January. It feels like we're really going to learn what this team is made of. Speaking of what this team is made of, you might have heard. It's a new year.

It's 2025. Hunter and I, when we come back, we're going to talk about just some realistic expectations and things we want to see from the penguins in this upcoming calendar year. And we will do that when we return right after this. And we're going to tell you about our final sponsor. and that is Game Time. I absolutely love going to live events,

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Download the GameTime app today. What time is it? It's Game Time. All right, welcome back. It is another edition of the Locked-on Penguins podcast. I'm Patrick Damp, joined as always by Hunter Hodes. And I want to start this segment off Hunter with something that if you would have asked me this one year ago on January 1, 2024, I probably would not have said it. And I kind of said it a little bit in the season preview, but now I'm hardening on it a little more. in 2025, I want to see this Penguins team earn a playoff berth.

I want to see them make the 2025 Stanley Cup playoffs. I have absolutely zero expectation of them should they get there because let's be frank, this is a fringe playoff team probably with it best. That is probably this team's ceiling. But given the way they have played, the way they have conducted themselves over the last month. I'm finally ready, man. I'm going to hit the hello we're back department button and file a claim because, listen,

there are definitely warning signs on the dashboard for this team. The goaltending is still not where it needs to be. The defense has its issues, but damn it, man, this team has more heart than I've seen out of a penguin's team in quite, some time. They stick their nose in to every single game they're in for the last month. They have battled. They're getting some good depth scoring. Their top two lines are figuring it out. If nothing else, I want to see this team continue this effort. And if they miss by one to three points, I'm not going to crucify them for it. But the way they played to end the year,

I want to see this team right in the mix, if not finding their way into the playoffs. Well, I'm still not ready to push that button yet. I know you just did, but I'm still not there, especially after how losing two of these last three games, just leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Let's see how they do this weekend, how they do with this upcoming Kotlin. If they're able to have another really nice stretch,

I think I'll be ready to push that button. But I still just see, you know, a few consistency issues that I don't like. I still want the goal tend to be better. I like where the special team is around. I like where some individual player performances are at, but I still need to see a little bit more before I'm ready to fully push that, you know, we're back button. I would like to see them get in the playoffs, even if it's, you know, the final wildcard

spot in the conference. I'm always down to watch this team get in the playoffs. Even though they're not a Stanley Cup contender this year, trust me, people, we all know that. I would still rather get in the playoffs and watch Crosby, Malcon, and Latang at least one more time in the playoffs compared to them never seeing the playoffs ever again. I will always choose them making the playoffs versus not getting in. So I definitely would like to see that happen as well this year. I still think they're going to be selling off some assets at the trade deadline.

You know, Marcus Pedersen, Drew O'Connor, Matt Grislich, etc. But, you know, I want to see some individual pro performances continue to be good. I want to see Sidney Crosby break the point per game record that he's going after. I want to see if Gennie Malkin have a really nice end of this season. I also want to see Eric Carlson continue his really nice strong month. I know he took that penalty late in the third period against the Red Wings. That one was at least a decent call. I will give the reps,

reps, excuse me, props for that. But I still think he has been fairly good throughout this last, you know, four to five weeks. And I hope that continues into 2025. So those are just a few of my expectations.

I also want to see Michael Bunting continue to play at this level. And speaking of that, you don't have it on the rundown, but it is Wednesday, Pat. It's Warrior Helmet Wednesday. and Michael Bunting does get my warrior helmet for this last week. Gets three points in those games. He's been on fire, especially on the power play this year.

He is one of the biggest reasons why the power play is a top 10 unit in the league. It was actually top five heading into that game against the Red Wings. That's how good it's been this year, people, compared to how awful it was last year. But again, you look at this last week, two goals in the three games. He gets two goals against the Islanders, no points, no goals against Red Wings. but he has been awesome as of late, 11 goals, 21 points for the season so far. He gets my warrior helmet for this past week. I will just piggyback off you for that because, yes, I did forget that it was Wednesday.

I wanted us to talk a little bit more about the month coming up as well as the calendar year ahead since it is New Year's Day. But I can't disagree with anything you said. Michael Bunting has figured it out over the past week. He has been extremely solid in looking a lot more. like the guy who nearly got the penguins into the playoffs in 2024. Last thing I want to add here real quick about my expectations. It's with the front office.

I have two expectations here. First is I want to see the trades that they have made over the past eight to nine months continue where they are maximizing the value. They're getting plenty of assets in return, whether it's draft picks or younger players that might be able to figure things out with a fresh start. I believe we have seen that in spades with guys like Cody Glass, guys like Tomasino, who have seamlessly found a way to fit into the Penguins lineup and play quite well. So I expect to see that.

That goes along with seeing Marcus Pedersen traded, maybe DOC, maybe even Ricard Raquel, depending on what they want to do with him and if there are any teams willing to take on that contract. But the other thing I expect to see, and I don't know if it'll happen during this season. I don't know if it'll happen during the summer. I don't know if it'll even happen into the start of next season, but I expect Kyle Dubus to make a big splash. And I don't mean it to be a guy for now. I'm thinking a player you and I have spoken about multiple times. Somebody like Trevor Zegris,

a younger player who has fallen out of favor, but is still very, very good. We're not talking, no offense to them, Glass or Tomasino, two guys who maybe got drafted in the wrong position really weren't worthy of that draft positioning, but are still very good players. No, I expect Kyle Dubas to make a big move

to bring in a bigger, younger name that can hang around for multiple years, even past the core hanging them up. Yeah, I do think if, for example, if Dubus is able to get a late first in a trade for Marcus Pedersen with maybe something else, you know, a bottom six forward, a prospect, something like that, it's probably going to be two pieces that come back. But if he's able to get a late first, I could see him packaging that pick to try and go get a younger player who will be here for quite a long time.

I'm not talking about a year or two. I'm talking about, you know, three to four to five years, you know, well after, for example, potentially Crosby, Malkin, let's hang up. And that player could be the start of the next wave for this team. You know, I definitely could see him making that big splash. It would probably be over the summer if I had to guess, whether, you know, it's a trade by the draft, during free agency, you know, maybe during August when there's really nothing going on.

but I really could see him packaging an extra first to try and go get that young piece. Because I do think a little bit of this is kind of eating out. I'm like, man, I want to take a big swing, but I can't do it right now. But I think he's maybe planning on doing it once the dust sells or the trade deadline and he's able to recoup some picks, prospects, maybe a player or two for the bottom six, etc. Yeah, absolutely. But that is going to do it for the Wednesday edition of Locked on Penguins.

Thank you, as always, for making us part of your daily routine, even on a holiday. Hope you are having an absolutely great New Year's Day. And I hope that you have an even better 2025. But for Hunter Hodes, I am Patrick Damp. Thank you once again. We will be back with a brand new episode in your feeds on Thursday. But until then, have a great New Year's Day. Have a great 2025.

And we will talk to you on Thursday.