Locked On Penguins - Daily Podcast On The Pittsburgh Penguins - Rob Rossi joins the podcast to talk about...virtually everything

Episode Date: November 11, 2020

With not a lot of content going on around the NHL, Hunter decided to bring on The Athletic's Rob Rossi to talk all things Penguins from this offseason and a ton more. They first start out talking about the new season coming up and if there are any updates with that. How many games are being considered? Could the NHL do 4 hub cities with teams for 10-12 days and then teams go home for a week? After they discuss that, they talk about the Penguins moves this offseason. Does Rob currently see them as a Stanley Cup contender? Where do they stack up in the Metropolitan Division? After that, they go into the front office shakeup and talk about if ownership potentially mandated a few of these moves. Finally, Hunter brings up the new jersey that is coming for the Penguins and Rob teases a return of the infamous Robo Penguin! All that, plus much more on this special episode of Locked On Penguins.Support Us By Supporting Our Sponsors! Built BarBuilt Bar is a protein bar that tastes like a candy bar. Go to builtbar.com and use promo code “LOCKEDON,” and you’ll get 20% off your next order.BuiltGoVisit BuiltGO.com and use promo code “LOCKED,” and you’ll get 20% off your next order. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hello, welcome to this episode of the Locked-on Penguins podcast. I'm your host, Hunter Hodes. Follow me on Twitter at Hunter Hodes. Follow the show's Twitter at L-O- underscore Penguins. So today we do have a special guest coming on this episode of Locked-on Penguins. Penguins Beat Reporter for The Athletic, Rob Rossi. Rob, man, how are you, and how's your health? How's my health?

Josh Joey has everybody worried about my health. I'm good. I'm good. It's been a, it's been a tough year for everybody. But I've, so far, I've overcome COVID, which I had in the fall, or excuse me, in the spring, right around the time the league shut down, had a concussion in late summer, and now dealing with a displaced rib that keeps popping in and out. But you know what? Small annoyances, all things. I'm very fortunate. that this has had, this pandemic has not devastated me, my friends and my family, which is not to say it hasn't affected us.

And, you know, I just say to everybody out there, if you want hockey back anytime soon, it's really important wherever you live to start. wearing a mask and start distancing. This is not a political statement. It is just based off of having talked to people with the penguins around the league in all aspects, management players, agents, whatever. This is a critical couple of weeks, a critical few weeks because if this thing doesn't start becoming under control in the United States and in Canada.

where it's picking up. I don't know how we get people anywhere close to in stands the way we want it to be, which is in the home arenas with as many fans as possible anytime soon. So we got to do this as hockey fans. As hockey people, the hockey community, we have to sort of gin ourselves up for doing the right things now so we can get rewarded later. That's all. That's my PSA.

That's actually perfect. I was actually going to ask you about this upcoming season later on, but I'm glad you brought that up now. Yeah, I think we all just need everyone to get to 2021 pretty safely. I mean, I saw the numbers yesterday, like the highest, I think, number of COVID cases now in the country to date. It's just not going away anytime soon. So, yeah, like you said, wear a mask, social distance.

But I did want to ask, Rob, is the NHL still planning on hopefully starting their season January 1st? And we saw the NBA with their announcement December 22nd. I think a 70 game season is what they're going to do. I think I saw an article yesterday on NHO.com. Gary Bettman said they were thinking about maybe doing four hub cities. You play for 10 to 12 days. You go home for a week with your family.

Is that something they're considering? Or is it just going to be like the NFL where you travel, but it's like limited fans in the stands? They're considering a lot of things. I would say that all reasonable options are on the table. So I think the way to look at this is the preference would be to start, you know, sometime in early, early 2021. Whether that's, you know, January or February, I think, again, depends a lot on what we're talking about. But, you know, the hope would be that they could start in a semi-normal situation.

it would be a reduced schedule, of course, whether it is, you know, 54 games or sort of 72 games. I think those are the two that I've heard discussed most. Something to keep in mind is, you know, about I think the conservative estimates, 60, probably the more likely is closer to 70% of the revenue for the National Hockey League comes from GATE. you would reach a point at some point very quickly that if teams can't get a certain amount of home games with a good bit of people in the stands, you know, so if you're, let's just get pie in the sky and say 50% capacity, which I think would be pretty unlikely. If you can't do that and you're an NHL team, even if you're a NHL team, even if you're a one of the teams like the, you know, the Flyers or the Rangers or the Toronto Maple Leafs that,

you know, sort of had deep pocketed, the deepest pocketed corporate owners, you're, you're losing a lot of money. You're losing almost all revenue because there isn't an NHL TV contract, at least in the United States, that's sufficient enough to overcome. And if you're the players, you know, you've already agreed to this CBA that gives you, you know, a portion. of your salary that would be honored for this upcoming season, but the owners are going to want to pro-rate that. And so that's going to have to be an issue that solves. So I think, you know, you have to get this financial situation solved.

Are the players willing to get to play with prorated salaries based off of, you know, revenue expectations and games that are available to them? Also, if the players agree to that, they'd probably have to get something back in return. Is this where the players can get the Olympics back? Might that be the big negotiating ploy? And I know people say, well, is now a kind of negotiate? Well, yes, you negotiate when you have leverage, and right now there's leverage. But the bottom line is this.

Does the NHL want to play? Yes. The biggest reasons, one, they don't want to go dark. they've done that before and though they've come back strong before when they've come back strong there was not a pandemic going on and there's most likely still going to be a pandemic going on even if they went dark and didn't come back till a year from let's say this past October the other thing to keep in mind and I don't want to talk too much and complicate this is but the other thing to keep in mind is there's there's two television elements of this right

One is the Olympics. NBC, which is the NHL's main television broadcast partner, owns the rights to the Olympics. The Olympics are also a big deal up in Canada. The Olympics would not, the Olympics would prefer that both the NHL and NBA be done by the time the Olympics are played, if they are played later this summer. The later you start this season, if you're the NHL, the less likely it is. is that that happens. The other television aspect of this is the NHL wants to have a new television deal. They have to get this deal off of its current contract. They would be negotiating a new deal this season, so to speak. And everything I've heard is the NHL wants to have a television contract, at least in the United States, that is multi-networked. So perhaps a game of the week, and portion of the playoffs on NBC, I'm just throwing out, you know, a thing here. And then maybe games during the week and select playoff games, but sort of more regular day-to-day coverage on ESPN that could help revenue for the NHO, which is going to be important.

All of that said, there's a lot of reasons for them to want to get this thing going and to get this thing moving. and they would like to do it in a way that they could start next season, you know, God willing, everything's safe by then as normal. And when I say next season, I'm talking now 20, 21, 22, yes, 2021, 22. They would like to start that next October and have sort of like a normal 82 game season. But to do all that, they have to figure out a way to get this season played. and they have to figure out a way to get this season played in a way that is economically sensible for them.

And again, even in their bubble concept, they can't do a full year without fans or even with, you know, greatly diminished fan presence. Because that is just going to kill them financially. I don't know if some teams can survive doing that. It would make more sense from the owner's perspective, if that's the case, to not play the season at all because they wouldn't lose as much money. But if you shut the game down for a year like this, how many teams would come back at all? So it, I said, I didn't want to talk too long, and I did. So let me just summarize this. It's a mess. It's a complicated mess. It's a mess that does a lot of things completely out of their control. Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the Olympics one,

because, you know, I think that starts mid to late July. You mean, they don't want to play well into there. I mean, I don't even really think the players want to play end of July. Anyway, so they would probably just want to end the season around mid-June like normal, you know, the TV deal. You know, I've always said for a while, you know, it would be great for the league. They would make a lot of money if they would bring back ESPN as one of the primary rights holders for the United States. I know they've kind of, what's the word I'm looking for here? They've kind of neglected hockey at times, I would say. You know, they don't have the best panelists, I should say, for hockey. But I really

think you could come up with some big names that would go to ESPN, you know, to do the games. And, you know, bring back Gary Thorne. I mean, I just, I loved him when he did it. But I think ESPN, look, there's interest by ESPN. And, you know, it makes a lot of sense from ESPN. ESPN needs, look, sports programming did not do as well during the pandemic as everybody's thought, but it's still, you know, traditionally one of the great. draws in American television. And I know from the NHL standpoint, they feel that the best way to get covered by ESPN is to, and I'm talking like mentioned on their ancillary programming, right, which is

really big. Think about it. Like the entire Crosby-Ovetchen era has not been really one that featured a lot of attention from America's largest sports network. And that's primarily because ESPN doesn't carry games. They have no stake in the NHL. If they had a stake in the NHL, how much more recognizable would Sidney Crosby and Alex Ovechkin or any of the great players be? So that's a factor.

Also, nothing against NBC Sports Network. In fact, I can make an argument right now that NBC Sports Network, especially with its Peacock streaming app, I'm a fan of Everton in the English Premier League, the soccer league, and I can tell you that the Peacock Network is great in terms of being able to watch all types of games on that network. So NBC is growing, but NBC doesn't have that type of reach the ESPN has, which is why I think the NHL would like to combine both. And they do have digital rights that are attractive. You got to keep in mind, too. One other element of this is these teams all have local television deals, right? And if they don't play, that's money they give back.

I mean, they may work out the deal so it's extended by a year, but that's money they're not giving in this year, so they're essentially giving it back, right? And that's part of their revenue slice too. And so, look, it's a business. And you have to do the business safely, but I just encourage everybody to look at it this way. You know, are you at your office right now? I'm not, you know, athletic week. I'm not at mine because mine's usually an arena.

Most people aren't at their offices. We don't think most people will be at their offices through the early winter. Well, the NHL's offices are the arenas. And they have to figure out how to get people in their safety. but they also have to figure out what's the cost versus the loss and and the players do have an interest in this right because if you're let's just say you're let's take of getting malkin right you're making $9.5 million next year right well you've two years left on your contract well you also you took a hit last year because all the games weren't played and the revenue was down

You know you're going to take a hit this year because that's the way the CBA was negotiated. You're likely going to take a hit the next year if this thing doesn't get under control really quickly. So now you're talking about a guy who on the final three years of a contract is taking less money and potentially on the final two years of that deal taking, say, 70% of the money. And that's if they don't come to some sort of agreement on a pro-rated. portion. And that's going to be a big chunk of the league. And so you're going to have people that are veterans and you're going to have people that are sort of mid-tier players, but also guys like John Marito who would be due a rookie or could be due like a new contract this upcoming summer, right? Yeah. The Penguins would probably like to sign him long term. How do you do that

with a flat cap when you don't know your revenue streams? Because you might not be able to get a long-term TV deal, especially a multi-packaged deal during this. And also keep in mind this, and again, this can get very big and depressing. And I'm not trying to do that to people. But I also want to just say to people this, I covered the league coming out of the full lockout season, right? And so that would be coming into the first year of Krosby and Ovechkin, 2005, 06. there were a lot of players, good hockey players, that tried to come back, but because they had taken that year off, right? They weren't the same. They were never able to get it back. And the truth is, when you take a year off in your 30s, it is really, whether it's through injury or what, it is really hard to get back to that level. if you have a year off where you really can't train the way you're normally used to training

if you're Sidney Crosby and those guys that go to Colorado to train in the mountains and you can't do that stuff there's no way to get back that training and it's possible that we're going to see some of these great players you know the Crosby's the Ovechkins the Malkins that name any of these guys in their 30s it's possible we're going to see them come back looking a lot different because if they don't play hockey from say September of 2020 through till say maybe October of 2021 you're talking about the same thing as the NHL lockout only they weren't even able to train the way they want to and are used to so there's a lot of there's a lot of motivation to play to get whatever you can out of this season

the problem is it's coinciding with, at least in the United States and Canada, spikes in a pandemic that we don't have under control yet. And the NHL has said this to me privately, as has the NHLPA. The biggest hurdle they have is not so much the pandemic. It's that they have a hard time making plans for a pandemic when they're aren't really plans, at least in one of these countries, to really follow. And that's a real challenge for all these leagues. Yeah, I think that's that last statement is probably, yeah, and that hits the nail on the head

because there's just, there hasn't been any plan for almost like since this started, basically, what, back in March, you know, was when the league basically shut down end of February basically. So, yeah, I mean, this is, it's going to be interesting to see what happens. I agree with you, you know, if this somehow goes a full year without playing, you know, Sid and Geno may look a lot different. You know, they're older, they'll be, what, 34, 35, 35 at that point, I think. They'd be 30, 35, 36.

Yeah, yeah, it's another. I mean, yeah, if Gennie's 34, Sydney's 33, yeah, I mean, it's, we're getting there, right? And, you know, and if you're the penguins, then, you know, if you're the penguins, and that's the case, and that's such a hypothetical, but I think even what we have experienced now changes a lot. of what the way the penguins were thinking about sort of the end of the Crosby-Malkin era, I think if this were normal times, I think you might have seen them this summer really, as much as ownership is willing to, and it's always been my understanding that ownership has no taste for letting Malkin go. Crosby's a non-factor, right?

But I really think you might have seen them try to sort of do the whole, make even more moves around Crosby and Malkin and just sort of accept that they're going to be lesser players, but they're going to finish their career here. But maybe you would have moved the Latang this summer to try to get some more return for that because it could be harder to move high-ticket players next year when revenues might be even worse. But I think now because of this, look, if you're the Penguins or any team, you have to think about not only putting the best team on the ice to win, but you also have to start thinking about like when fans are going to come back and there will be this rush of when fans come back.

They'll want to get into the buildings. But there will also be this thing is you're going to want players that they love on your roster because you're going to want to give them added incentive to go to these games. Because let's face it, it might be something that they feel like is a risk. And, you know, it's I guess I don't want to say it's more of a risk worth taking when you can go see players that fans love. but, you know, it is to a lot of fans' minds. And so that, you know, I think that plays a part in the decisions they'll make too. And that could directly impact the way they're trying to build a team not only for this year, which I think is more of a one-off, but in future seasons.

Yeah. And we're going to touch on, you know, what the team is, you know, going into this season looking like as Jim Rutherford made a flurry of moves probably was more active than any other general manager around. But before we do get to our next segment, We can talk about Bilko a little bit. You know, whether it's a mental or physical wall, you can break through it with Go every day. It's the best workout gel on the market. You can put it in your pocket to get through the day.

Put it in your briefcase for the most focused presentation ever. There's three delicious flavors, the chocolate mint, chocolate coconut and the peanut butter, honey. There's an offer. You can go to Bilko.com and use promo code locked and it'll get 20% off your next order. That's promo code locked for 20% off at Bilko.com. Let's go. Rob, so as I just said with the Penguins that saw season with Jim Rutherford made a ridiculous amount of moves, was definitely not happy at the end of the season when they lost in four games

to the Canadians. Do you think he made enough moves to get them to be a contender going into this season? Just because, you know, Krosi Malkin don't have, you know, a lot of time left here, and he said he wanted to get younger and faster going into the season? That's such a great question. By contender, I'm assuming you mean for the Stanley Cup. Yes. So I've sort of taken this rule, and I was slow to come to this,

but for years I used to argue that it was a myth that any team that qualified for the tournament had a chance to win. I looked at the data, and the data suggested that wasn't true, especially in the cap era. you had, you know, the winning was being done primarily by, you know, a handful of franchises, the Penguins included. I do think that's changed. I do think now if you get in, you probably have an equal chance to make a, make it through a couple of rounds. And, you know, I've long thought if you win two rounds, the difference between ruining two and four is usually, you know, are you able to win one game in each of your next two seasons?

series that you probably shouldn't have. And that usually, the Stanley Cup champions usually determined by that once you get to the sort of conference final, which team can win sort of two games, the rest of the way that they shouldn't have one in each series, right? So that's sort of my general view. I do think the penguins are a playoff contender. But I don't love where they stack up in their division. I think it's going to be very hard to be one of the five teams that qualify for the playoffs,

if the playoffs are traditional and the Metro would get five of the eight teams, which means they would get the two wild cards. I think that's going to be really hard to do. I think it's going to be hard for every team in that division to feel good about itself other than the devils. I think when you look at Columbus, the moves Columbus has made, when you look at Carolina continuing to get better every year, when you look at the New York Rangers, how well they were playing at the end of last season, how intriguing it is that they might not have the Henrik Lungfist thing holding over them the way it did last year. and then you look at they added a, you know, another top winger prospect in this draft who can be a difference-making player and also gives them a chance to maybe look at Kako as a guy that they could move to improve. You know, I think Philadelphia showed you that even though they do have some veterans, they also have a lot of good young players. I think for the first time in our lifetime, at least since the days of Ron Hextall,

people that are in Pittsburgh don't look at Philly and go, oh, the goaltending is going to be the issue because Carter Hart's, he's the real deal. And, you know, I haven't even talked about the Washington capitals who are still pretty good, who have a pretty good coach. And, you know, I haven't, I mean, I haven't talked about the penguins, really, who in theory should be still pretty good and and the islanders who I think are the best team in the division um and I think the islanders are sort of at that point right now where after the last two seasons if they are going to take that next step I think you're going to see it over this season or next and by that I mean from team getting better to team contending for a cup I mean again in a traditional format you only get

five so no I don't feel good about the penguins position. only because that division is a murderer's row. Here's what I will say. I know a lot of people are down on what Jim Brotherford's done. I could quibble too. I will say this. I think I understand what his approach was, what his thought process was. Whether he executed that approach the way he could have, I think, is a fair point to debate.

But it seems to me he looked at the last few years where they tried to be a team that had sort of depth throughout the lineup in terms of, you know, four lines that could play the same way. And, you know, right left on defense all the time. And, you know, certain guys could sort of be floaters, right? You know, and you heard that a lot, right? guys could be floaters uh you know duos of two with a guy that fits in with you know crosbie and gensel and that i think i think what jim rutherford looked at and said look that's not working um i i do also think he looked at the most hidden problem with the penguins over the past couple of years it's not something a lot of people have pointed out i remember talking

with josh oi about it they've become a hit or miss offense they go through these runs where they score five, six, five, six, seven goals. And then they go through these runs where they score one or none. And unfortunately, in the playoffs, when they've run into defensive teams or teams that have had decent goal tending, it's been more like one or none. Okay. So I think I see what Jim Rutherford was doing in that he did want to get faster. And he did.

Okay, they are faster now than they were. Yeah, I agree with that. He did want to get younger. And they did. They shaved about six months off their average age. I think I see a plan in that you have a defined top six, right, with, you know, Crosby and Malkin as your two centers. You got Gensel and Russ and Zucker and Capitin as your wingers in the top six, right? And those are your top six wingers. And then you've got this group of bottom six that I think, and I think that top six

becomes they're going to count on them to carry a lot of the offensive load. That's what I'm thinking too. And then the bottom six is, it seems like it's going to be, you know, defend like mad banjies, right? Yeah.

And when you look at the defense, if you believe, as they did, even if they didn't always say it, that the weak link was really the third pairing of Schultz and Jack Johnson. Well, neither of them are there. And they brought replacements in.

they can still go left right, you know, with their pairings. And they think in goal they have Jari who is, they think Jari is going to be better for them day to day than was Murray. Okay. So I see what they were trying to do. I think the question is, and maybe I'll throw it back to you, is I guess my concern is, I don't know if they got the right players for those roles. And when you are a cap team as they are,

and your plan coming out of the season was to leave room under the cap to make moves in season, which was the plan that Jim Rutherford pitched to Penguin's ownership in the days after the loss of Montreal. And then you start making trades that adds salary and you end up being a team that is going to be right up against the cap, but you're paying guys who aren't even going to be playing for you. It's a real curious way to execute the plan. It's bizarre. So I guess my, you know, I guess what I'm saying to you is, I don't disagree with Jim Rutherford's plan. I do doubt if the plan has been executed well enough to work.

Yeah. Like my big thing with him is, you know, he brings in Jankelski, who had a good year about a season ago before this one, 17 goals, 25 points. But are you going to get that same version of him with the penguins? I'm a bit skeptical. His numbers went in California the next year. You bring back Evan Rodriguez. Okay? I remember reading that he was, oh, he was so great in the camp before the return to play.

Why didn't he get any ice time? You're continuing to play, you know, some players in the lineup that were just... By the way, I can confirm he was great in the camp, and none of us understand why he didn't get ice time. Yeah. Like, none of us. So it was baffling to me that they were interested in bringing him back. Yeah. And then they play Patrick Marlow.

in there and that's just like I mean he was well I'm sorry I don't want to be rude but you know it was almost like watching like just a corpse run around the ice no disrespect to Patrick Molo he's a great but I just felt bad watching him play but then you know you see players sign some of these

contracts you know for agency Craig Smith who I was a big fan of his underlying numbers are outstanding signs in Boston for I think not even like I think it's like three point something million per season for the value that he brings the offense is how much he shoots the puck, his playmaking ability.

I would have loved the penguins to go after him. And then another player I really loved was Yesper Foss, who goes to Carolina, I think, $2 million per. You're telling me you didn't want to pay an extra $600K for him, but you're going to bring in two players that combine for 1.4K to just play defensive-minded roles. It's just, it's questionable to me. If you're going to have your third line consist of Rodriguez, McCann, and Jankowski. I don't know about that.

I think you need to surround Jared McCann if you want me to be the third line center with more offensive players, you know, like a Craig Smith or a Yesbeth, who is also good at penalty killing. And then, you know, for your defense, you bring in Cody Cici, who has just had a tire buyer of a career. His underlying numbers are just, I could talk about those all day. They're just not good.

I mean, Demich, I think, Philberovich on Twitter, showed that clip of him missing the net by about 150 feet in the return of player in Toronto. though. It's just some of these moves are questionable. You know, I even was questioning the cost to acquire for Casperi Capon, and I like Captain, but, you know, he needs to get back to the level that he displayed a couple years ago.

So it's just... Well, and I think what you're hitting on, too, is... Go ahead. I think one of the things you're hitting on is the... So players have these defined roles, right? Well, are they in the position to succeed in those roles? You know, I don't think... I think Jared McCann's a fine two-way player, but he's also a guy that should be a 25 goal score in this league.

Now, in theory, they're looking at it like McCann can be the Phil Kessel of that third line, you know, on a wing with two guys that, you know, are differing presence, right? You know, Jankowski can be maybe a big center who can play a little physical and play a possession game, they hope. and then Rodriguez can be a guy that, you know, I guess in that situation would become more of the Carl Hagelin, right? Except that I don't know that you can look at Rodriguez or Jankowski and really say that there's a whole lot of evidence that where they're at in their career. they were anywhere close to what, you know, the penguins had with that HBK line around Kessel, you know. Jankowski's not what Benino was. This isn't a case where they have another Carl Haglet. And Jared McCann's not Phil Kessel, you know.

For all of maybe his fault, Phil Kessel is one of the few wings in this league that has never needed a center to create offense. Yes, I agree. Okay, now your fourth line, I like your fourth line a lot, but, you know, they have guys coming back to this team that I don't know that they need because I think they might have guys in the organization that can better fill the roles. And so when you're still paying Jack Johnson, you know, $2 million against the cap or whatever it is not to play for you, when you're still paying a guy like, help me with his name, I forget. Nick Bustead. I apologize. Nick Bustead, yes, sorry. Yeah, great guy, I didn't see him play enough to remember his name. I apologize, but in so many names this year.

Still got a guy like Nick Bustead who you're paying not to play. And then you got Zach Asing Reese, who's getting a million dollars a year from you against the cap. And to be honest, I don't really see where he fits better than some other guys could. You know, when you're looking at a, Jared McCann even, I think paying Jared McCann cost the $3 million to be on your third. line, I think, is a waste when we've seen that he's not really a third line guy. And especially when you have those defined roles. And if you thought last year, the problem was the third pairing on defense was a weakness, well, I don't know that it's still not a weakness.

In fact, I don't know you it still could be a weakness. It's maybe just not as weak of a weakness, but it's still weakness. Yes, that's basically, you basically hit the nail on the head. there. It's still a weakness, but as long as you don't have Jack Johnson on the team, they're not going to be as bad. I mean, the same with Justin Shultz, because he was just terrible in that

playoff series. I mean, Cody Cici's not much better, but if you're paying, if you're giving Mike Mathesing and Cody Cici, I don't know, what do you think you get, 12, 14 minutes a night? It's not going to kill you like Jack Johnson. Well, you know... It's a lot of money for 12 or 14 minutes a night, though.

That's the thing. And they don't, what I also don't like is they don't have a real lot of opportunities going into camp for guys to win spots. Now, what they do have is guys that are signed to one-year contracts that are easily disposable that if guys come into camp and prove they're ready and then go down to Rokesbury and sort of light it up, you can probably easily dispose of guys like Jankowski, right? You can probably move a guy like Zach Aston Reese to create room for these guys. you know the biggest question i have for the penguins despite everything we discussed um i could see

all that working out here's what they don't have i have grave concerns about the goaltending i think tristan jari has all the potential honestly he's i think of him similarly the way i think of mark andre flurry um as gifted as they come but as we saw with matt murray until you prove that you can handle a 50 plus game workload, which is something Matt Berry never proved he can handle consistently. You're just part of a goaltending tandem. You're not sort of a number one. He's never proven that at this level, so we don't know. His backup is presumably going to be Casey the Smith. They might be a fine tandem, but I guess I would have argued that this would have been a year to invest in a more solid number two because in case Jari gets hurt.

or in case Jari falters, and because the schedule could be compacted, you might want two goalies that can play. They have a great unknown at goal, and we're basing a lot of what we saw from Jari in 30-some games. Yeah. And, you know, that's, I guess I would feel better about that if I don't, didn't feel like they, it's not quite the same risk they took with Matt Murray, but they basically bet on Matt Murray to become what they thought he would become when they picked Murray over Flurry.

And my argument at the time, and look, I think everybody knows my relationship professionally with Mark Andre Fleury dates back to when he was 18. So, you know, I'm fond of him. But I also like Matt Murray a good bit. But I think my argument at the time was, you know, could you have written out the last great years of Mark Andre Fleury gotten more from Matt Murray because you knew what Matt, you knew what Mark Andre Fleury was, you were betting on Matt Murray sort of becoming what he had shown you to be in small stretches. And they're doing the same thing, only I don't think there was ever a chance they were going to keep Murray this time.

But you are betting on what Jari conceivably will become. And he has to become that. And until he does, I think you have to put the Penguins goal tending. It's certainly not a strength because it hasn't proven. that it can be yet, and I'm talking to the goaltending as a whole, and it's an unknown, but that doesn't mean it won't end up being a strength and a

difference maker in a good way, because maybe he becomes a Carter-Heart type player. That would be the best case scenario. Right. I mean, honestly, I remember reading this on Twitter, you know, it was almost like they're kind of doing like a coin flip here with, you know, deciding to take

Jari over Murray. Small sample size, are you going to get the guy for 50 to 60 games that played? Well, enough to be an all-store, or are you going to get the guy that faltered a little bit down the stretch where his save percentage dipped, I think, below 900? And then, of course, I know he did have that really good playoff game. So, you know, it's such a sore sample size. Like I said, you're almost like flipping a coin hoping it works because I could have seen the option to keep Murray, but, I mean, you're not going to pay him $6 million per year. The fact that he got that from

Ottawa stunned me pretty hardly, pretty hardly, just pretty hard, pretty hardly, just pretty hard. a lot. That's not a word. Good for him, though, but it's going to be interesting. I think this team overall is a playoff team. I do agree with the Metro is a murderer's row, though. I mean, Washington is in the same predicament as Pittsburgh.

There's writing out the last few years of their core. The Islanders, for as much as people like to say how their style of play stinks, I'm one of them. I can't watch Barry Trots hockey 82 games a year. It's a very effective, and it works, and they're a good team. Philadelphia, I mean, yeah, I can't really pick on their goaltending anymore because Carter Hart has made me E. Crow. And then, you know, the Rangers

to me are fascinating because, you know, they were playing great down the stretch. Artemian, I think, should have won the Hart trophy. He had my vote. He was my first place. If I had a vote on that chapter, he would have gotten mine. But, you know, their goaltending, Schesterkin's still a bit of an unknown, but, you know, they're not that deep either. And besides Adam Fox on defense, now I know they have Tony DiAngelo, Jacob Fruba, who's played a little bit down.

You know, I don't know how much I trust them. So I think they can finish over them for sure. And then, you know, Carolina is they're getting better too. But, you know, I think. Well, you didn't mention the team that I think's the most intriguing is Columbus. Yeah, that's interesting. Because I think we tend to sleep on Columbus because it's the blue jackets and it's that market. And, you know, it's torts.

But, I mean, I think we have to look at this. They've quietly developed one of the best systems in hockey. They're a type of team that Tortorella can coach and coach well. I think they have the best defenseman in the league when he's healthy and Seth Jones. I think they might have the best top pairing in the league. And, you know, they added a top six element that they were lacking. I think Columbus is very intriguing. I think they could be very Carolina-like where all of a sudden they go from some team that was building to also an entertaining team.

And I agree with you what you said about the other. Look, the Rangers, I think, are all upside. We don't know what they are. But, I mean, look, the facts are at some point the Penguins and Capitals, it catches up to them that their cores are as old. And when I say old, I mean, they've just got a lot of mileage on them, right? At some point it catches up to them. And unlike in years past, now, I wouldn't say this was the case last year, or maybe even the year before. But this is going to be three years in a row now, I think, where the metro is just, you know, a fight of, you know, I compare it to like the old Godzilla movies where Godzilla always had to face a new monster.

And then it was, then it was like, if it wasn't enough, then it was like, well, you had to face a bunch of monsters. Right. And then it was like, well, now we got to bring King Kong in to help Godzilla because there's too many good monsters. Well, I think the penguins are Godzilla and the capitals are King Kong, but the rest of the division is like all these other monstrous. You know, and it's like, it's just going to take something out of you. And if the idea is to win another championship, I don't know being a team with aging cores in a very competitive division in a playoff format that every. emphasizes getting out of the division, I don't think that helps your chances. Maybe it does. Maybe it steals you for a long run. But boy, it's going to be interesting to watch. It's kind of one of one of the big reasons I hope there's a season.

Me too. It's fascinating. And I think, and I do think, you know, I didn't mention this either. I think Jim is going to make a move during the season to really. Oh, of course. He knows this is the last two, three years of Crosby, Malkin and Latang at an elite level. He's going to want to milk the best out of them to try to get them before. because, you know, you get four, that's rare territory.

You're already in rare territory with three with this core, but you get the four. I've said this on this podcast for it. You're almost at the immortality stage where it's just like... Yeah, I mean, it changes everything about them. I mean, you know, as I've talked to Evgeny for his book, you know, he's well aware. Not only would he be the only Russian with four, but, you know, as Evgeny has told me, you know, it puts him and... Sydney, even with Gretzky and Messia in Edmonton. That's right.

And that, look, that's big territory. I mean, I, I think we're going to look back at the three and go, wow, because, you know, they did go back to back. And let's not forget, they went to back to back finals twice. And it's only because they played an all-time great Detroit team that they didn't go back to back twice. Yeah, it's one of the best teams of ever. So, like, this has been, I've said this.

I know people have questioned me. It's the greatest air of Penguin Hockey. It's not even close. With all due respect to the Mary Lameau, and Mary is the greatest player in history, the franchise is the greatest player in history of hockey. And with everything Yarmir did, and I still think Yarmir at his peak

is probably a notch above slightly Crosby in terms of just how dominant he was individually. We forget how many average teams Yager dragged into the playoffs and two playoff victories in his last. latter time with Pittsburgh. But we've never seen a run like this. I mean, it's going on a decade and a half. It's had winning on the ice, consistency on the ice, unparalleled financial success. These great players that they've drafted have, you know, they've won MVP's scoring titles. You know, they've, for the most part, averaged going deep into the playoffs, even in the years

where they lost in the first round. Those are sort of outweighed by the times they've gone to the conference final. And look, I'll say this. And I know, you know, this means a lot to me as a covering it, you know, I've covered the entire era. And I haven't had to write any stories about these guys being like bad human beings. And that means something. You know, they've been exemplary citizens. That said, every era comes to an end.

And I do think Penguin fans, and look, I think you've a better fan, you've a better grasp than this than me. My sense is there's a portion on Twitter, as there always is, or social media, how you want to say it, that is never going to be happy, right? Yeah. But I would say that it's probably 20% that and 80% no matter how this era ends, they've enjoyed it enough that they kind of want to see Crosby and Malkin just finish it out here. And if the penguins can be competitive during that, great.

But, you know, sort of, they want to sort of, there's a generation now that's grown up with this team that I think wants to see that sort of end with those guys in town. And they're willing to maybe be, they're willing to take maybe just being a playoff team. the fans I'm talking about as opposed to, to, you know, being a cup team every year. And look, you have an ownership that's going to try to spend every year that they have those guys to be a cup team. So it's a lot of good situations in Pittsburgh. But, you know, whether it's the Crosby-Malkin era or the Mike Lang era or, you know, whatever era, we are closer to the end of some great times than we are at the beginning just because of age. and, you know, that makes me a little melancholy.

I'm not going to lie. I don't know what I'm going to do when Mike Lang calls it quits. That's going to be a sad day. I think, you know, to your point about the fans, I think a lot of them, you know, for the ones that I follow, at least on Twitter, I think they want one more. And then they'll be like, okay, you know, they got four. Now we can just, you know, if they want,

they can be competitive the rest of the time. I think one more, though, is the big one that everyone wants. You know, we all know the team is going to stink once they retire. I think everyone is also already preparing for that. It's going to be – there's going to be some dark days ahead for the franchise once they retire. But, Rob, before I do let you go, I want to touch on a couple things. Go ahead. Rutherford, you know, they had a big front office shakeup this off season.

I didn't really see that coming. You know, Jason Carmanos was let go a couple of things. a couple weeks ago. You know, I read about it on, I think, a couple stories. You know, he basically was like, yeah, I'm not really going to get into the specifics about it. Specifics about it. And it's like, okay, it seems kind of fishy that he's not going to really want to talk about that. I don't really know what that's about. And then, you know, they promote Sam Ventura, which is awesome. I'm a huge fan of his work. I'm honestly of the opinion, man. I want him to get consideration for the GM job once Rutler resigns, calls it quits, or somehow fire, because

I don't think the organization is going to do that. what do you make of the front office shakeup that went down with the penguins? I was stunned by the Carmanos dismissal, and I'd be lying to you if I told you I had any inside info. If I did, people would have read it by now. They've kept it very closely under wraps. I don't believe that it was just Jim Rutherford's decision. It's a tough thing.

Everybody says great things about Jason. Carmanos. Jim and him are extraordinarily close. They basically have a father-son relationship. I find it peculiar that at a time when Jason Carmanos seemed to have his stock be at a high, I mean, he interviewed for a GM job this year. I remember that. You know, the promotion, you know, look, they needed, they needed a GM in Wilkesbury. He was the logical guy to be the GM in Wilkesbury. So, you know, I put less into that and more into the, it just, seem puzzling, right? That said, I will say this, I have long thought very highly of Patrick Alvin. I like guys that have worked their way up. He came into this organization in the Ray Shiro

era and worked his way up from, you know, the very basic scout to ultimately director to now GM. I think he's going to bring a key awareness for young talent, which is something that I think they've lacked since really Jason Botryl was in the organization. By that I mean being able to identify young talent, not just in your own organization, but out there that you can maybe get that maybe other teams don't value as highly. I also think Patrick, more than anybody in the organization, has been very adept at looking at things from an analytical point of view, using metrics. Most hockey teams talk about metrics.

They don't use them. I think the penguins have been one of them. I find it very interesting that Patrick and Sam are sort of going into this new era together because I think they are sympathico in a lot of ways. And I think it could be very intriguing in terms of giving Jim Rutherford a completely different perspective. I think that I know that. Sam Ventura can do anything he wants to. He's one of the smartest people I've ever met. I have a lot of respect for people that are the smartest person in the room and never want to be known as it.

And he's, I think, probably the smartest person in every room he goes into. But he's very unassuming. He's very down to earth. He's very much a guy that likes to learn. I think in this role he puts himself in a position to perhaps be a guy that could either be a GM in Pittsburgh or somewhere else. And I think if the penguins are trying to groom him for that, that would be great. So I think that's, I think any move that results in Sam getting more influence is outstanding. And, you know, I'll even say this, you know, Eric Heasley, who, you know, started off in any relation. and is now, you know, doing a lot of sort of the, what I call dirty work, the crossing of the eyes and the dotting of the teas. One thing about Eric is he's organized. He's very meticulous.

And another low ego guy. And I think he'll be invaluable as an asset to Sam to have success. So I'm encouraged by what they did front office wise. And I even think bringing Trevor Daly in makes a lot of sense. I know they've told Sergey Gansharr, who they were high on, that they would hope to bring him back to the organization in some way. And I think bringing honestly, and I think this is part of hockey ops, the way I look at it is this. And also, by the way, I should say this. I still think there's a chance they're going to bring in a veteran to be part of this.

I know I reported a few weeks ago. They had interest in – oh, geez. Dale Allen, right? Yes, yes. Thank you. Oh, God. And I still think he could be a part of this, whether you like that or not. You know, but I will say this.

If you look at the moves they've made this year, it's interesting, right? Because I don't think this is an ownership group that, you know, quite candidly, it's not an ownership group that's all that engaged. You know, they'll sign the checks, but they basically like to stay out of it unless people are bothering them so much and they feel like they have to. step in, right? But I will say this. If ownership was trying to send a message,

and I'm not saying they were, but let's just humor me on this. If ownership was trying to send a message that we're not angry, but we're also not happy, I would give you three moves that to me, I think are intriguing. One, they get rid of Patrick Hornfest, a guy who's very popular in that room, right?

a guy who the players have a ton of respect for, a guy who the coaching staff has a lot of respect for, a guy who's been a warrior who's gone through so much in Pittsburgh, the guy who plays the way he does, when you get rid of a guy like that, the way they did, that does send a message that I think even reaches the top stars, you know? So, you know, that's one move that should have an effect on the way the veterans on this team, it should get their attention.

They hire Todd Reardon. Todd's one of the best assistant coaches in the NHL. He wasn't a failure in Washington. I mean, you know, he won the division twice, basically. I mean, I guess this year is kind of, but Todd's an established coach who has a good working reputation with Chris LaTang, who's an important part of this organization. Mike Sullivan had had his hand-picked assistance, right? Now they're bringing in a guy who was a recent head coach who knows the organization.

If you're trying to get Mike Sullivan's attention, I think that's a good move. And if you're trying to send Jim Rutherford a message, even if you're probably never going to do anything to really put pressure on him, you know, having him dismissed Jason Carmanos was at least uncomfortable enough to guarantee that the penguins will have gotten the attention of their core, their coach, and their GM after two disappointing seasons. I don't know what that means exactly, but I'm intrigued by it. Yeah, that was something that, you know, a couple of my friends were wondering, too, you know, just like, just to make people on Twitter, too, like, is ownership finally stepping in, you know, almost telling Jim, yeah, you got to fire Carmanos just because, like, we're not happy.

You're going to trade Papa Forkis or something like that. That might have been the case. I mean, I don't know that that wasn't the case. Like I said, the Carmanos thing has been very tight-lipped. Generally, guys like him, and I know this to be the case, have a non-disclosure agreement. Yeah. So, but yeah, it was so sudden and so out of nowhere. And it's hard to think that they couldn't have done what they wanted to do with Patrick Alvin and San Ventura without Jason.

Now, maybe it was also just financial, right? But look, I'll just say this. We focused on the moves for the players. There's been a lot, there's been a lot of happening in Pittsburgh this year. And that usually goes one or two ways, right? That usually goes, there's been too much change and the team doesn't really have anything that sort of binds it together. And, you know, oh boy. or it goes we needed some fresh perspective or we needed some people in positions to sort of

orchestrate some of the things we want done and this is going to benefit them. I don't want to sit on the fence, but I, you know, you could, I can make an argument for either one. And I don't know that we'll know this year because this offseason along with next season are going to be so different than an 82 game schedule that it's going to be really hard to judge. You know, conceivably a team like the Penguins if the schedule is 56 games could benefit more from that than most. Yeah. But, I mean, that's what makes this so fascinating.

You know, I think Penguin fans, I will caution them this. You know, it's amazing to me that we're going into what year 15 of Crosby Malkin, right? And I mean, first of all, it's just amazing to me that. I can't go to here. Yeah, that's ridiculous. But we're going into it. And there's still a very interesting team. I mean, there's still a very interesting team.

If you can, like, get past the whole championship or bust mindset and can just appreciate what we're seeing, they're a fascinating team right now. And at a particularly fascinating time, and I don't want to speak for you, but. you know, I'm pretty appreciative of the fact that at a time when, you know, everything else in life is kind of frightening, we have sort of something like this to at least muse about, to distract ourselves from the harshness of the cold, cold world we live in. Yeah, I agree with you completely with that. And, you know, another distraction.

We'll just, I'll just end with this one, Rob. It looks at the Penguins are going to be getting a New Jersey next season, as is every NHL team. Rob, is it the diagonal ones that are coming back, except they're going to be in white this time? I'm still a little upset that they're not going to be bringing back the black ones because, you know, the video with Snoop on riding his bike is just... Right.

So a couple things, right? Yeah, go ahead. I wouldn't necessarily rule out that they are eventually going to try to bring back a third jersey that looks like the black one. And I have heard that the NHL might be, especially because of reference, uh exploring sort of a NBA type thing not for this coming season but maybe the season after this and beyond where teams could have sort of a regular home a regular road sort of a third jersey

that is sort of like a league wide trend jersey and then a sort of city type jersey right um i've heard that now one way one reason they might do that revenue right Yeah. But yes, this jersey is going to be basically take the 93, 94, or excuse me, 92-93 diagonal jersey, where there was black, naked white, and where there was the pigeon, put the skating penguin. I had hoped it would be an exact replica, and I had hoped they would bring the skating or the flying pigeon in

only because I always thought the logo look they have a perfect logo and they have perfect uniforms their current regular uniforms should never be changed again like those are iconic

but I didn't hate the skating or the flying pigeon I should say as a secondary logo and I kind of liked the way it looked on that shoulder pad. I always liked the way those jerseys on the Pittsburgh diagonal looked. But I also think one of the great things about those jerseys, that was back at a time when the jerseys were baggier, remember? These jerseys are more

form fitting. I don't know that the diagonal wording works as well on the modern jersey. We'll have to see, even though I'm a fan of the NHL eventually going back to wearing white at home, And these jerseys, I think, are going to be worn a couple of times, one at home, one on the road. I wouldn't get, these jerseys are going to look weird, but I will tell you, it's my understanding that the way these jerseys are going to work is they were designed to be worn with another team wearing their version. And for what I understand, the penguins were designed to go when they play the flyers. and so like you have to almost look at it like a pairing. So I don't know if we're going to see these things like 10 or 12 times. I think we probably won't.

That's what I was about to ask you too. I was talking about that yesterday on my episode. Like when they had their third jersey, which eventually became their home jersey, they wore it like what, 15 times during that season, 10 to 12, something like that. So I figured it would be the same for this. So it sounds like it's going to be different and it's only going to be worn like two times at most. maybe three. Yeah, it might be two to four.

I mean, I don't know if it'll be every game versus flyers. There might be two teams, but I know these were designed that way. I mean, and because you're going to see teams like, and these are all designed to be throwback jerseys but reversed. So, you know, you're going to see teams doing this thing where they wear an old jersey and the colors are just flipped. It's very gimmicky. Okay.

You know, so these, I wouldn't look at these as third jerseys. would look at these as sort of like special attraction jerseys, right? Yeah. Almost like they make for the outdoor games. I will tell you this. The penguins are still looking at sort of regular third jersey concepts to replace the yellow ones, ones that they would wear more frequently. Obviously, the pandemic and that has changed a lot of things.

I know they were considering a, and they still like the idea of sort of a black or even a gold. version of the diagonal, where, you know, the black would be replaced with the Pittsburgh gold. I also know that one of the things they were thinking about was the, what ended up being probably the most popular jersey of that era in terms of sales was the one with the, I don't know how you describe it. It had the pigeon and had that wraparound. Robo penguin, the robo one?

Yeah, the robo penguin, right. And I will just say this. That robo penguin jersey is on the minds of people. It would be tough to replicate that without using the pigeon. But there is, I'll just give you a little tease here. There is a, it's not going to happen this year. but we are now 30 years this will be the 30 year anniversary of Yarmier Yager being drafted he has said I wrote about this in the athletic in the fall or

excuse me in the winter so you can go back and read that story he has said he's going to come back and be part of a retirement number ceremony I could definitely see the penguins wanting to tie some form of the robo jersey's debut as like a third jersey. Not this season, but maybe the season afterwards for the sort of official kumbaya moment with Yager. And I'm not saying that's definitely going to happen, but I could definitely see that happening. And that'd be pretty cool, too, because when I think of Yager, that's the jersey I think. Yeah, I think of that one.

too. Now you have me all excited because I want that jersey to come back pretty badly. I have to give you a reason to have me on again. That's the thing. Exactly. I mean, I mean, those diagonal jerseys that they're going to bring back. I mean, I don't know. I just wish they would bring back the original

one just because of how I can't do. Me too. Me too. And in fact, when they wore them a couple years ago at the Lemieux charity event, they looked so awesome. I mean, those are, the penguins have the parents have usually had good uniforms.

I mean, they haven't had too many clunkers. I would say probably the worst uniforms I've seen were the... The blue ones. Oh, well, which blue are you talking about? The ones I think they wore after the Winter Classic. I just... Yeah, so those, right, right. But those original uniforms, those original baby blues were pretty good.

And I will say that I always thought that when Reebok took over and had... had the penguins, remember they had the thing called Vegas Gold? Yes. And the lines were very diagonal and sharp. And then Reebok took over and it became these like patches underneath the, I think it was Reebok. Yeah, I think it was Reebok. You had these like patches underneath on the side paneling and that Vegas gold became almost like a beige. And that, you know, look, that's what they won the 09 Cup played in the 08 final.

and even on the road they wore the white versions of those jerseys in 16. I always thought those were pretty bad just because they didn't pop. They just kind of faded. And that's because the color palette just changed on the penguins. But since they've gone back to this, they're in a unique position where they've got such. They're like the Steelers, I feel. They have such great basic uniforms that they can sort of take some chances on like an alternate, because you always know that, like, well, people are going to love what you normally wear.

So I'm excited to see if the rumors are true what the avalanche do, because the rumor is they were going to sort of play up their Nordique history. Only with an Avs logo, but sort of like a Nordique reverse design. And I don't know if that's true or not, but man, would that look, boy, would that look sweet. Yeah, that would be awesome. I know I think Carolina is doing something for the Hartford Whalers with theirs. Yeah. That's going to be awesome to wear. I'm excited to see a bunch of these.

I'm excited to see the Penguins won. Like I said, I'm not going to repeat it yet, especially to the black one was coming back. But Rob, thank you so much for coming on this episode. A lot of great stuff, a lot of great insight. And yeah, we're definitely going to have you back on again, you know, especially with more Jersey rumor announcements. Yeah. I love myself. I'm weird, man.

I'm a colorblind dude that loves jerseys. Go make sense of that. Yeah, I'm excited to see all that. But yeah, man, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it. We have another episode coming out on Friday, but until then, hope you all have a great rest of the day.