Locked On Penguins - Daily Podcast On The Pittsburgh Penguins - Rob Rossi joins to talk ALL about the GM situation!

Episode Date: January 30, 2021

The Athletic's Rob Rossi comes back on the Locked On Penguins podcast for one of the longest episodes yet. Hunter asks Rob all about the GM situation and what really went into Jim Rutherford resigning. How many times did he actually tell the organization that he was leaving? Was he trying to make a trade right before he left? They also get into the shortlist and how high of a chance each of the five have of getting a job. Would it really be that weird seeing Ron Hextall as the GM? Is Colorado going to let Chris MacFarland interview for the position? Does he expect one of Chiarelli, Pierre, or Tallon to GM? They also get into some other options, such as Mike Gillis, whose application was leaked on Twitter a few nights ago. All that, plus much more on this special Saturday episode of Locked On Penguins.Support Us By Supporting Our Sponsors!BetOnline AGThere is only 1 place that has you covered and 1 place we trust. Betonline.ag! Sign up today for a free account at betonline.ag and use that promocode: LOCKEDON for your 50% welcome bonus.Built BarBuilt Bar is a protein bar that tastes like a candy bar. Go to builtbar.com and use promo code “LOCKEDON,” and you’ll get 20% off your next order. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Your Locked-on Penguins. Your daily podcast on the Pittsburgh Penguins. Part of the Locked-on Podcast Network. Your team every day. Hello, welcome to this very special Saturday edition of the Locked-on Penguins podcast. I'm your host, Hunter Hodes. Follow me on Twitter at Hunter Hodes.

Follow the show's Twitter at L.O. underscore Penguins. Joining me today, very special guest, one of the Penguins beat reporters for The Athletic. Rob Rossi Rob, have you gotten a lot of sleep in the last 48 hours? Because I feel like with one of the biggest stories in this franchise's history, I feel like you've just been up for 48 hours straight.

So how are you doing? Yeah, that's a good question. No, I haven't gotten a lot of sleep. I've tried. So it's funny you bring that up because I was talking to, wow, one of the editors at the Athletic, one of the past couple days.

and I mentioned at that point, like, my Fitbit said I had had three hours of, like, anything other than cursory sleep. And he's like, Rob, that's not good. And I was like, well, you know, I used to do this a lot. And now that I'm 42, I'm, I recover less. I recover with, I don't recover as well. from the stories like this. But the problem is I just love these stories. And as, you know, I was telling Josh O'i, he was my long-time tag team partner.

And, you know, I don't have to tell your audience about Josh. But, you know, he's, I remember when he was a really younger, really getting into the hockey writing, working with me when we were at the trip. And he came over once storing of free agency. And free agency was legendary for, us because of the decline you'd see in Rob Rossi both physically and mentally from basically 10 days before the NHL draft through about day four after free agency. I forget what year it was.

I don't think it was the Yager watch year. But one year he came over with donuts. And it was like July 1st day. must have answered the door wearing like sweatpants, a t-shirt, and I hadn't shaved. And I'm pretty sure I had showered, but, you know, it was probably like, I would shower for like five minutes when I knew. It was like, okay, this is right, right? Because I was just on the phone all the time. Yeah. Texting people trying to get information. And back then, I thought, I have to just break every story and I have to know everything.

And I remember Josh showing up that day and looking at me, he goes like, you look dead. And I was like, what do you mean? He goes, no, like even by your standard, when was the last time you slept? And I was like, I'm sure I've slept this week. And I said it and I heard myself say it. And I was like, oh, okay. And so the reason I tell that story is, you know, I'm pretty open about. you know, I was it six years ago, I went into therapy again, talk therapy, and was diagnosed with ADHD, along with anxiety and some depression associated with that.

And I didn't know I had any of these things. I probably was obvious to everybody else. And so that started me on a completely different journey of trying to live healthier. And this was the first real test of how do you try to live healthier? test of how do you try to live healthy while, you know, a story like this develops. And the real answer is you go as long as you can for as hard as you can and you know what I'm doing this weekend, which is kind of paying attention to everything, but like also trying to do basic things like sleep, laundry, grocery shopping. So that's the long. long, long answer.

But I love this stuff. It's my, it's the most fun I have in hockey is, you know, if I can't break the story, you know, getting, getting the readers of mine, the most information I can at the time, the most accurate information I can at the time, and just really work in the phone. And I love that. So it's sort of like this weird addiction. to feeling lousy. But, you know, this was a unique situation, as I tell people.

It was, yeah. Unique is probably the best way to describe it. I mean, Jim Rutherford shocked the hockey world, not just Penguins fans with resigning due to personal reasons. You know, Rob, I was listening to the 31 Thoughts podcast with Elliot Freeman and Jeff Merrick. You know, they do a great job. And, you know, some other people were reporting other stuff, like it was a contract thing. You know, he kind of shot that down by saying, like, they kind of reported.

punting that to the end of the year. It wasn't a contract, say, I don't mean to cut you off, but I'm not, like, so as you know, I don't like to make anything personal with any reporters. I don't even know who's reported what out there. I know that some people on Twitter, yourself included, have sort of, helped me bring attention, because I really don't pay attention to Twitter anymore. As if anybody's noticed, like, we have a real-time section at the, the athletic on our app, you know, gratuitous plug.

And so I use that now. And I tell people, I think I told people to be the year, like, I'll be doing stuff on that. And so I don't really send a lot to Twitter. And part of that is I don't want to, Twitter has become so toxic, not you, not others, but a lot that I just realized it wasn't good for me to sort of get caught up into that. And also, I realized several years ago that a lot of people, even in the league, are so on Twitter, and I'm talking like other scouts or executives or players even,

and they don't realize they're reading something on Twitter and it's going into their mind, and they don't realize like they're passing on bad info because they forget where they read it. So anyway, here's what I know. Jim Rutherford, so I'll start with a couple. Jim Rutherford did not have a trade in place for Chris Lattang that the penguins killed. The penguins had told Jim Rutherford, and by the penguins, I mean, you know, Mary Elamue, Ron Berkel, pretty much through David Morehouse, their CEO, that, you know, Jim, you know, Jim could do what he wanted with the roster, but, you know, they wanted him to rebuild around Crosby, Malkin, and Lattang. And that was this past summer, and that's not been different than any other conversation they've had with the GM.

So there was no trade for that that got scuttled. There was no contract issue. The Penguins had never even opened negotiations with Jim. It's my understanding talking to people on both sides. You can read into that what you will, that there was an, you know, an understanding. understanding that they wanted Jim to be the GM. They wanted to talk to him at the end of the year. And the reasons for that, there were a couple.

Primarily, they wanted to, they did not want to be doing any type of extensions with any type of employees that weren't players during a pandemic when they still haven't been able to bring back all of their own. employees yet because of revenue issues. And also, they just, you know, I'm, this is me talking, but, you know, they're a pretty savvy media organization. They took some heat, I think unfairly, for the loan they received. And I only say, I think unfairly because it wasn't against the rules. and, you know, why, if it's not against the rules, why are you mad at the people that took the loan as opposed to have made the rules? But they took some heat for that. They hadn't been able to bring back all their employees.

And what revenue they did want to spend, or what money they did want to spend and sort of commit to, they have to pay players, and they would have rather done that with players. So that was explained to Jim. And it was my understanding that when it was explained to Jim, you know, early this or late this summer he was okay with that so there was never even negotiations um and the other reason was i i do think they wanted to talk with jim after the season and see what his interest was because at that point he would have been 72 um everybody knew going in this was going to be

another weird year um probably even weirder because you you know weren't going to be at all at like he wasn't going to be on the road much if at all yeah exactly the ice isolation and everything. So I think they wanted to see, like, Jim, you know, how long do you want to do this? And by that, I mean, they had always given him a three-year extension. But, you know, they were going to try to have a conversation with him about like, look, if he want to do this year to year, we can. You know, because, you know, we don't want to be in a situation where, you know, you would get three years and then decide after one that you're done. And then, you know, that puts us in a tough bind. And that's not because we wouldn't want to keep you in the organization. into capacity afterwards, but there's a difference between what they pay a GM and what they'd pay sort of like a senior advisor or, for lack of a better word, a liaison. So there were those factors, but Jim was okay with that. So if Jim suddenly wasn't okay with that, that was on Jim. But I can tell you from talking to Jim, both Josh and I, there's just no indication that this was a contract issue.

That's what it sounds like. Yeah, El Friedman was basically saying he thinks it's something, it was philosophical, Topical between him and the ownership group. They must have, like, disagreed with something about, you know, that maybe the future of the team or just a retool or something like that. And I think Jim just, I mean, me speaking, I think he just said, you know what? You know, we disagree and my contract's up. So I'm just going to leave now.

But it was just such weird timing. You know, you're not even 10 games into the season. You just retooled the team a bunch. You know, you made all these moves, get at Gisbury Cap and in buying out Jack Johnson, and ringing a couple bottom six forwards. You made, of course, you signed Yonik Weber off of the street. And then you just say, okay, I'm dipping. We were like tied for a second in the division at the time.

And it was just like, wow, like what weird timing that was, I think. Right. So let me say this. Starting with your last point. I've learned in the past few days that I don't want to say who signed Yonick Weber because I honestly don't know who actually signed. him. Here's what I've reported. I think I put this on that real-time section last night. I think it was last night, Friday sometime. So, you know, there was a point on Wednesday morning where Jim was still acting as the GM, even though he had resigned.

And there was a lot of discomfort with the few people at that point than knew. And I can't stress this enough. The people that knew about this, even at the 10 o'clock hour within the organization, it was very few. That's one of the reasons this didn't get out. They, you know, they, I guess I should say, if you haven't read the story that Josh and I wrote, you know, I think we talk. I know I know I talked over 20 people, so I forget what the final number was. But, you know, I can tell you with fair certainty, Tuesday afternoon, Jim and David had a discussion that Jim thought was more caustic than David did. at that point Jim decided he was resigning.

It's my understanding that David was like, look, Jim, let's talk after the game. Game days are, you know, he, by his own admission, Jim doesn't like to speak to people because he gets very agitated as a former player. That kind of carries over. We talked after the game. Jim didn't back down. Either sometime during the game or right after that conversation. I don't know which time, maybe both.

David did alert the owners. And, you know, I wasn't in on those conversations, so I, you know, I don't want to put words in the people's mouth. It was my understanding that at that point, the owners were like, well, look, he's going to, he's going to wake up tomorrow and not want to resign. So, but when Wednesday came around, in a very early Wednesday, nobody had heard from Jim. they hadn't been able to get in touch with him at the earlier hour. That's when they convened a web call with very few people. I don't even think anybody in hockey office was on it. To my knowledge, I think it was a very small group of just need-to-know top-top executives in the organization.

And it's my understanding at that time the decision was, or the way it was framed by the people speaking on the call was, we think Jim's resigning, so we need to be prepared. But they were still willing to give him that one chance. And, you know, as the day progressed, things happened. And one of the things that happened was, you know, Jim made it clear he was still resigning when he and David talked. At that point, it's my understanding, Mario had told David, look, you know, if he does, if he still sticking with it, let him resign because honestly, you know, if people don't want to be here, we don't want them here. So, which is consistent with what I've always heard of you, you know, he's very loyal, but if you don't want to be, you know, you go somewhere else, no hard feelings.

Anyway, when they had that conversation, David and Jim, on Wednesday morning, and it was sometime mid-morning, Jim said he was getting them a defense. And David said, what do you mean? You're not the GM anymore. You've resigned. He's now accepted your resignation. You know, we needed the, you know, he was speaking still in terms of like, we need a defenseman. I don't want to leave the penguins in a bad spot. And, you know, I'm close to making this trade.

And so here's the thing. I'm not going to say who the trade was with other than it was a North Division team, mostly because I need to protect my sources. But it was trade with a North Division team. It wasn't a significant trade. It was a depth defenseman from a North Division team. And the penguins' assets that they would have been given up wouldn't have been considered. Like a pick, basically, I guess.

Yeah, you know what? I shouldn't say that. It wasn't like they were giving up anybody off their roster or anything. It was just an asset for a defenseman. At least it's my understanding. Maybe they were. And here's why I bring that up. At that point, the GM has resigned.

Now he's trying to make a trade. And if you're the penguins and you're thinking, Well, we don't really know what he's telling us to be true. So he could make this trade. And A, is he even allowed to make a trade? Probably not. And B, you know, he might be telling us one thing. And Jim's been known to do this.

Get on the phone, make a trade. And then sweeten the deal to get the guy once. And it's like, okay, well, we can't have that. So it's my understanding. A call was placed to Mike Sullivan, who didn't really know a lot of this was going on yet. He gets clued in and they're like, he's like, okay, you know, you can imagine Mike Sullivan taking this call.

Oh, God, yeah. And then having it explained to him, we're going to, you know, he's talking about making this trade for this particular player. It's my understanding, Mike's like, well, wait a minute. Like, there are other guys we could get without giving anything up other than money. And, you know, they, they, it's my understanding that, you know, the question was basically asked like, okay, well, who? and he's like, well, you know, Yonick Weber is available.

I'm sure he'd like the job and, you know, I know him. So, okay, well, you know, so at that point, I don't know if they reached out the, I don't know if like David had somebody reach out the Yonik Weber or if they had Patrick Alvang do it as his first act, but I do know this. sometime around 11, in the 11 o'clock hour, I think Patrick on his call said it was 1130. He found out he was going to be the interim GM. And deal for Yonik Weber was kind of struck in that same time period. Gotcha.

So, you know, the reason I say that is, is like, even on Wednesday morning, it was still a very chaotic situation. and I don't fault the penguins. I mean, look, I've been very critical to penguins when I felt necessary. I don't know what they're supposed to do when a GM quits three times. On the third time, they finally decide to take the resignation, and then he still wants to make a trade. Yeah. And to me, it speaks a little bit about the mind frame Jim was in,

and which is why I give credence to this notion that it wasn't any one thing, but that a combination of factors, Jim was not, I don't believe. This is me speaking. Nobody's told me this. My conversations with Jim over the past few months and lead me to believe that for whatever reason, Jim was not thinking clearly. I don't mean he was thinking poorly, but not thinking clearly. So if he was normally at 100%, maybe he was at 90. but that's a big difference from and that to me is why you could have somebody in one way quit and also in another way at the same time quit but be trying to make a trade like that doesn't make any logical sense

right it doesn't no if you're penguins and you're believing that as most of the organization do that whatever issues there were Jim thought they were bigger issues than anybody else did then you can sort of understand how this thing went sideways very quickly, which I think explains why all of a sudden, Jim, who can be impulsive? I mean, he's a very emotional guy.

He admits this and he can be impulsive. I really think this was a combination of his impulsivity, if that's a word, on Tuesday, his stubbornness on Wednesday sticking to it. but also just not really reading a lot of situations the right way, one of them being he thought there were more problems than the penguins did. And, you know, that's how a relationship goes south in a way that nobody was expecting. In my opinion, based off my reporting. Yeah, that's all very interesting.

It's just, you know, like I said, man, it's just it leaves the organization in such a weird spot now. because now you kind of have a lame, I shouldn't say a lame duck head coach in Mike Sullivan. He's still under contract for a few years. He's in the first year of a four-year extension that's made him one of the top five paid coaches in the league. I mean, they're not going to ties with him. Yeah, I wouldn't think so, though.

You know, I get scared that like a new GM can be like, whoa, I want my guy. And if they're not doing well, they can, he could just like. Well, that, you know, that's a fair question. But I'll say this, you know, when they hired Ray Shiro, they told him you're keeping Mike Tarian. Oh. That was a condition.

And if they want that, they'll stick a condition on this guy. I mean, the GM they hire is going to be told you're signing of Guinea Moken this summer to an extension. Yep. So, like, there's going to be conditions to take this Pittsburgh job. That's just the way it is. Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. You know, we still have a lot more to get to. You know, Rob, I saw those short lists that they have from your article.

We're going to get to that coming up in the next break here. Before we do that, it's time to talk about BetOnline. There's only one place that has you covered, one place we trust. That is betonline.ag. You can sign up today for a free account and use that promo code locked on for your 50% off welcome bonus. Don't just sit down the sidelines anymore. You can get in on the action. Don't forget to use that promo code locked on to receive a 50% off welcome bonus with that first deposit.

That's Bet Online, your online sports book experts. All right, welcome back to this episode of the Lockdown Penguins podcast. I'm your host, Hunter Hodes. So, Rob, you know, I was reading your story yesterday, you know, with the GM shortlist one. I'm great reporting as always. You know, I think of this list, there's two that really stuck out. Chris McFarland of Colorado. I think he's Joe Sackick's right-hand man, if I'm not mistaken.

They've done a hell of a job building that team in Colorado the last few years. I mean, I think there are a lot of people's picks to win the Stanley Cup this year. They were my pick to win the Cup this year before it started. He's just, that would be a great hire. And also, you know, Ron Hexthall too. Some Penguins fan. I mean, I wasn't alive when he chased Robbie Brown around the ring when Lemieux got his seventh point there in that game. But just his distaste for the penguins throughout those years in Philly, it would just be hilarious if they were able to hire him.

But also, he's almost like the anti-Jim Rutherford. And when I say that, you know, he's very patient. He was just so patient in Philly. The reason they're so successful now is because of his patience. I mean, he drafted Ivan Probrov, I think. Carter Hart, I think, was his doing. So many, like, I think Morgan Frost was on there, too. I'm not sure if he drafted nor if that was Chuck Fletcher.

But, you know, just some of their other players that are on the team right now that are young are because of Ron Hextall. And I think he would be a good hire. But just if you had to pick one of those five as, like, the early favorite or who you think could get the job, who do you think it would be? Well, I mean, that's so tough because, I mean, they're going to, you know, they have a short list and that short list can probably change every day right i mean that's problem a person like me in this position you could put literally something out my i think jessie marshall tweeted uh mike futa's getting right right after that and i'm like hey great scoop i'm like i heard he was more like somebody they wanted to talk to um not necessarily like they didn't view him

necessarily as you know a serious contender but that doesn't mean he couldn't blow them away in an interview. All right. So the people on the list, Chris Drury is not, at least as of Friday, was not going to receive permission from the Rangers to interview in season for this job. I don't know that McFarland would either, and I don't get the sense from the few people I've talked to that McFarland is itching to leave Colorado. Interesting.

Or any job, mostly because it's pretty much been decided he'll be the, the GM there when Joe moves into a, you know, different role. Okay. And he's basically the GM now. Uh-huh. Like, Joe is, you know, the GM in name, but I mean, Chris is doing a lot of the work. By the way, that's not this similar to the way it was for Jim when Jason Botryl was associate.

You know, Jim sort of had the big vision and then Jason had to do all the work. Okay. So those two. Now we're talking the other three names. Hextall. So here's what I've heard about Hextall. First of all, him and Mario actually get along. So if there's any like ill will, that's all the thing by the way.

You know, they did hire, they did hire Ray Shiro who was a son of Fred Shiro, who I'm pretty sure partly got into the Hall of Fame because he could count on beating the Penguins in Philadelphia every year. So, you know, I don't think that's really going to matter. And the truth is it's a dirty little secret between the franchises because their fans love the rivalry so much. But the franchise is like ownership wise, upper management wise, the Penguins and Flyers get along really well. So, okay, so Ron Hextall. Here's my thoughts on Ron Hextall. The two things I've heard about him were, one,

what you said, he's very patient. I don't know that that would be a bad thing because, you know, Jim's made so many trades. I don't know that at some point it's like not a cumulatively dizzying effect on the franchise. Two, the other thing I heard that might be a concern is that he always wasn't great at communicating with people that wanted to know what was going on. Now, that's a tough thing to say because it might just be. sour grapes from people that wanted more say or more info or whatever. But if it's true that he wasn't exactly communicative, that would be an issue that they would need to resolve more than the

patience thing, because anybody who takes this job is going to have David Morehouse as a guy that he reports to. Now, that doesn't mean David's going to be involved in hockey decisions. It does mean David likes to be involved in hockey discussions. And as a CEO, that's, you know, his right. And by the way, Maryle and you and Ron Berkle want it that way. So, you know, again, one of the conditions. So those are the two things. But I have to believe if Hextall was their choice or was somebody they really wanted, then that's going to happen relatively quick because there'd be no reason not to do it quickly

because he has permission from the Kings to talk to them already. So if, you know, they want to talk to Ron. on Hextall and they think he's the guy. It's literally a matter of getting a contract on and making an announcement. And hell, for all I know, maybe that's coming early next week. I don't know. Okay. The guy on that list that's most intriguing to me of the short list is John Ferguson, Jr. And I had somebody in an organization tell me, Ferguson Jr. reminds them a lot of Mike Sullivan, a guy who was kind of thought of as a very talented guy who in his 30s sort of got his dream job that being the GM in Toronto right um didn't go well I don't know that it went badly on his account but it didn't go as well as he'd want and then he goes and sort of

carves a really impressive respectful career doing other jobs that aren't the limelike jobs right and And now, you know, 15 years after that episode in Toronto, you know, he might have shown he's learned from what mistakes he made as youth still has all the talent he had back then, but has shown that he's grown with the game and has had other roles that, you know, including personnel director with Boston, that currently, that would make him, you know, maybe an ideal candidate. Now, here's a thing. I don't know that Boston's given them permission to talk to him. But to me, he's the one who's nobody talks about that I go, boy, that fits in a lot of ways. The other guy, and look, you're going to hear a lot of names. I think they are going to talk to Fuda.

I think they're getting pushed to talk to Kevin Weeks by the league and by people that know Mario. Interesting. Who think highly of Weeks and think it would be a good idea for them to talk to him. I mean, I say getting pushed. I don't mean they're getting pushed to hire him. I getting pushed to, like, talk to him. And I think they will.

I think they're going to talk to Kevin Weeks, you know, formally do an interview. But if they don't do this within the next month, I'm going to go back to something. Somebody told me that story that ran, that's on the site now. We get to April, the Penguins owner of the GM, and Tom Fitzgerald has not been announced that he has a new contract with the devils. Yeah, he'll be. Well, it's the person that one plus one still equals two. And everybody I've talked to thinks Tom Fitzgerald would be the best fit. And I guess if I'm the Penguins with any candidate,

whether it's Tom Fitzgerald or Chris Drury or John Ferguson, Jr., whoever, and it's literally just a matter of waiting until the off season, but that's the guy you want. I don't see a need to hire a guy right away because what's the GM going to do right now anyway. And also Patrick Alvane, as the interim, look, they're going to keep him. The new GM is going to have him as an assistant GM. Patrick's still overseeing amateur scouting. So it's not as though they'll take a huge step back there.

It would probably be as simple as the penguins going the rest of the season and bringing in somebody in a consultant role or some type of role where they bring in somebody with some experience doing sort of the crossing of the T's and dotting of the eyes. of just being a general manager so that, you know, nothing slits through the cracks. Yeah. That would make a lot of sense, especially if they don't want to hire someone right away. You know, my next question for you, Rob, you know, I think some people in the fan base have been wanting this, you know, for a little over a year now just because, you know, they thought

the gym had lost his way. You know, I did think that he was making some trades or some signings that were just not what he was usually doing. And so I just, I think they have to nail this hire for a number of reasons, you know, one, of course, to close out this era. And two, you know, if they want this person long term, you know, they have the inevitable rebuild that's going to come at some point. Do you get the sense, Rob, though, that they want someone who's a bit more younger,

more innovative, maybe uses analytics more, just like, I guess is my way of saying it? Or do they want someone like, how do I say it? An old head, I guess, you know, I know a lot of people don't want Dale Talon, myself included, Peter Shirelli, Peter McGuire, people like that. Yeah, well, you know, if the options were Dale Tall and Peter Shirelli or Pierre McGuire, I would tell people that you should hope the option they'd pick is Pierre McGuire because I think he'd be better than the other two guys. I think if Pierre McGuire wasn't on TV and you just looked at his credentials,

he'd be a guy that everybody would go, oh, that fits a lot of, that checks a lot of boxes. but I don't think it's going to be either one of those guys. I'll say this. GM to the Penguins has become head coach to the Steelers. And I guess you can nitpick if you want, but the bottom line is, you know, Mario Lemieux, he wasn't the owner when Craig Patrick was hired,

but Mario had a lot of influence, right? You know, they haven't missed on any of their GM hires. Each one of the last three, is one of Stanley Cup. Two of those guys have won multiple. And for the most part, other than the five years when they went intentionally into the tank so that they could

try to rebuild, partly because they didn't have money to spend, and partly because there wasn't a cap system, they've been a playoff team throughout that round. So I actually trust them to make the hire. I don't, and by that I mean, I don't know that, I'm sure they have some ideas,

but I think they're also looking at this is like, you know, the best thing we can do is keep it open mind. So it's like, say, you know, take Scott Mellonby. I don't know that. Maybe that's not a real, you know, sexy pick. But, you know, it's not like they wouldn't have done a lot of homework on a guy that works under Mark Bergerman, who's Mario's best friend. And it's not like, you know, a guy like Melanby isn't well thought of. So whether it's a guy like that who's sort of been an assistant and might be ready or, uh, Whether it's a younger guy, like, you know, jury who I think may be younger in age, but, you know, has, you know, sort of had the Billy Garon trajectory,

which is a really quick movement from retirement towards people thinking he's ready to be a GM. You know, if that's the direction they go in, I don't think that signals that they're going to rebuild right away. Because they're not. They want to try to win with Crosby and Malkin, and I think Latang, the GM who comes here is going to have to try to retool around that like Jim Rutherford did, like Ray Shiro always did, year to year. And at some point, but not like next year or the year after it, at some point, probably four years from now, yeah, they're going to have a stretch where it's like a much older

version of Crosby and Malkin and, you know, they're probably going to have to get a lot younger. But they're not there yet. Even if you think they are there yet, they don't. So the new GM is going to come in here with a mandate, whether he's experienced or not, to do what Jim Rutherford did at the end of the Shiro era, which is get them back to where they are at least getting to the second round of the playoffs. Yeah. Now, here's the thing.

You know, with regards to Jim, you know, I try to look at these things. as soberly as I can. And so, you know, I look at it this way. His teams won non-consecutive playoff series. In that process, they won the Stanley Cup twice. And had they won 10 consecutive playoffs series, they might well have won 12 because I do think if the Penguins had survived the Capitals in 2018,

they probably, they certainly, I think, could have won three years in a row. And so you can't take any of that away. But since 2018, the off-seasons have been very degrees of bad. And I would just say that anytime you're averaging 12 trades a year in a three-year stretch, that's too many. That clearly means something's not working. I mean, I know it became cute to be like, oh, gambler gym, you know, he'll just do anything.

But like, when you're trading guys that you got and then trading them away or like, or or making signings that nobody in the league can go, wait a minute, why did you give that guy that term? Or even with the capitan trade, like, you know, they jumped out in front of that so early. They did. So much when I think a lot of people went, look, if you'd have just taken a deep breath and pause for two minutes, you know, the market wasn't indicative of what you were giving up. So here's what I'll say. It might have been time for Jim Rutherford. I think it probably, you can make a strong argument it was. It doesn't mean they were looking to get rid of him. And it doesn't mean his tenure wasn't a success.

But, you know, the penguins are not in that much better shape they right now than they were when Jim Ruff. Rutherford inherited them, except that Crosby and Malkin and Latang are older. And so, you know, I guess what I'm saying is what I think they're going to do is try to find the guy they feel. I think the priority here is not going to be look for our next GM for the next 10 years. I think it's going to be who's the right guy to do what Jim did and orchestrate a very quick turnaround. And, you know, I think if they got a guy for three years,

years, but in those three years, they were, you know, not counting this season, but in the next three years, they went to the second round every year, and in one of those years made a deeper run. I think that they'd consider that a success. And if that guy is an older guy that wants to retire after that, fine. If that guy's a young guy who, that's the start of it, and then after that, he kind of starts more of a harder rebuild. Yeah, I think that's fine. I think what they're hoping for is they find somebody who can do what we said, have those

type of three years and also at the same time bring them so that they don't have to do a full rebuild they can sort of do what Detroit did they don't and when I say that like between Detroit's 08 and 09 seasons and their previous cup runs it was still really good right yeah they transitioned now they fell off a cliff uh the penguins don't want to fall off a cliff and everybody well they're going to have what happened to the Blackhawks and what happened to the Kings. And in my argument there is, no, they're not for this reason. I know if getting Malkin isn't off to a great start. A lot of that is because, and I put this on Jim, the hockey observations was so small

that they didn't have anybody who was in contact with Malkin. Because the guy that they, Jim used to go through Malkin was Gondchard, they fired him. So they should have known that Malkin was having trouble getting a wait room in Mokin. They should have bought weights and sent them over there to him. They should have had somebody checking in constantly. They should have said, Evgeny, we want you back by December. You know, we're fine with you going home because you haven't been there in a year and a half, but we want you back by December so we know all this.

You know, I put a lot of the problems with Malkin and Caputin getting here on the fact that Jim had turned the hockey operations department so small, and he made it so condensed and consolidated so much of it into him that things slipped through the cracks. But my point is, they really look at this as, and I don't know that they're right, but that this should be a crime job, and that their view is, and I agree with them on this, the reason they're not going to be the kings or the blackhawks is their culture is different than the kings or the blackhawks. And I would say that that is the case, because the penguins are owned by Lemieux and Berkel.

And though they're hands off, Lemieux is different than those owners in Chicago and L.A. He brings a sort of different presence. Also, Sidney Crosby and Gini Malkin are already better players later in at this point in their career than the

King's best players. They have aged better. And not only are they better players than those players have ever been historically at any point of comparison, at 34 and 33, Crosby and Malkin are just better than Cain and Caves or Copatar and, you know, um, Dowdy or everyone to put in that group. So I think the penguins are looking at this is like, you know, we got a lot to sell here.

And those two are still really good to build around. Maybe not what they once were, but, you know, they're not quite pastured yet. Yeah, I would say that too. You know, I was reading on, well, I wasn't reading. I was watching TSN, they're a little insight. or trade anything with Pierre LeBrun. And he said, yeah, there's already over 20 people that have expressed interest in the job. And I did want to get to one of them that, you know, Rob, I'm not sure if you saw this on Twitter.

This was leaked, I think, by Mike Gillis's son. Did you see that application that he sent Lemieux? I don't think that was a hoax. There was a lot of stuff on there that was almost like a slam dunk to me. I know he hasn't been a GM since he was fired out of Vancouver. Do you know if the penguins are planning on talking to him? I think we're going to talk to him. I don't know that it's going to be, I wouldn't say he's on their short list.

But I mean, Mike Gillis is another guy where, you know, I think, you know, I think Mike Gillis is more like a Jim Brotherford situation than would say a John Ferguson Jr. I think John Ferguson Jr. would be more, like I said, they viewed more like a Mike Sullivan situation where Gillis is a guy who's done the job, built some good teams. I think the concern with his Gillis has been out of hockey for a while. Yeah. And so that's tough. But he's a steady hand. He knows how to do the job. I think you'd, if you're the penguins, you know,

if you don't already have your guy in mind and you're not bringing them in at the beginning of next week or the next couple weeks, then you're kind of being derelict the duty not to look at a guy that's built a team that went to the cup final, right? I mean, in a high pressure market and that like that, you know, I don't. I don't think Mike Gillis would be the worst hire from what I know. I mean, I only know honestly what people tell me about the guy. You know, I don't think they really care about winning a press conference on this one. Because let's face it, they lost the press conference on the last one. I was there, I know.

I kind of helped give them that loss. And, you know, it doesn't matter if they win the press conference. They want to win the Stanley Cup. So, you know, and in terms of Twitter, look, there's been a lot of stuff on Twitter. You know, I think we've learned if you are related to a candidate for a GM, you probably don't want one of your children leaking photos of your proposal. Yeah, because that looked real, to be honest. I look, because the way it was taken down very quickly, yeah, I think it was probably real. So sort of like, what are you doing, bud?

Like, don't get me out of the job before I get it, right? Yeah, exactly. Secondly, with regard to Pierre's report, he's right. I mean, they've heard from 20 people. That doesn't mean they have 20 candidates. I don't hear from a lot of people. I mean, they heard from 40-some people last time. You know, if we're in the world where we consider everybody that's interested in a job of a candidate,

then we're in a really weird place because what happens in these situations, my friend, is you start hearing from a lot of people that, hey, you should talk to this guy. Hey, my friend, this. You know, and it's like, okay, yeah, whatever. you know um and a lot of there's a lot of media game playing here you know a person of influence leaks a player's name to somebody in the media or not a player leaks a candidate's name to somebody in the media and then suddenly the media does this and you know you find out later like that was never a serious thing um and for all i know that's happening to me so i'm not being critical any um the other

thing i'll say on twitter is this uh you know maybe you're going to ask me about it if you were I'll just jump the question. I apologize. The Darren Dregor tweet about Sidney Crosby. Darren's fabulous reporter. I do not have any clones with his information. But it's

not what I was told. And I can tell you that I'm pretty tight with the Crosby and Malkin camps. And there's a story in my quote in my story today. We'll just read it to you. We've been away for free, I guess.

People have it. But please go to the athletic and subscribe because you know that would be better that was the marty baron tweet right that he put out i think it was yesterday that he said i think that sid's like well i'm like thinking about no was that was that not the one uh the quote i have from somebody from the crosbie malkin world is um this and it's at the end of my story um sorry i'm trying to find this story here uh so here's a quote and it's the last thing that's on the story um they want to be penguins. They want to keep winning too. That's always been with the thing with those guys.

They want to win with Pittsburgh. They know that's their legacy. Now, when that was said to me, I did not read it as, uh-oh, they're paying attention. I read it as consistent with everything, which is, Crosby and Malkin want to be in Pittsburgh. They know that they want to win in Pittsburgh. They've experienced winning in Pittsburgh. They love that feeling. They want to keep doing it. And that's what they're interested in. Now, I don't take that to mean if they hire a guy that Crosby and Malkin think is completely unqualified that either one of them are demanding an out this summer. I took it to mean, like, look, their interest is in retiring as penguins.

The penguins have said they want that to happen. But Sidney and Gini have not taken the haircuts they've taken over the years in terms of max value and presumably won't take less money on their what would be their fourth contracts with the penguins if crosbie gets one Malkin will but i don't make crosbie might just play his current one out um but you know they're not going to just keep sacrificing money so the penguins can save salary cap space for the penguins not to be a team that's going to spend to the salary cap i think that's what that meant yeah and and that's the way i took it um i can tell you i've talked with Sidney Cosby about this.

I don't want to put words in his mouth because he's never said to me on the record, but I will just tell you, he has never expressed any desire to me over the last 15 years to do anything other than finish his career in Pittsburgh. And I can tell you, if Gennie Malkin said that to me on the record for the book, for other stories, and, you know, I think their actions have to be trusted more than their words here. They know that they are going to be viewed as one of the all-time, in this league. If they don't finish their career together, that kind of takes a hit. And I'll just say this, too, I think people have to keep in mind, the big difference between now,

other than their age and the last time the Penguins had a GM search is, they got those the next two, right? I'm not saying they're not as competitive anymore. I'm not saying they don't want to win as much. They do. They want four. They want five, you know, but they got through. And you can't take those three away from them. And because of injuries, maybe neither one of them is going to finish where they thought they might in terms of all-time historic. You know, it might be tougher of getting to finish as the all-time leading score among Russians. I mean, I don't know that he can or can't, but that was his goal. It might be tough for Sydney to finish top five all-time points because of the injuries.

But at the end of the day, they've been MVP's, Kant-Smith winners, multiple-time scoring champions. Their team, since they've been together, has more points than any team in the NHL. They've been to four standly cup final, and they've won three of them. So, like, I think they're pretty comfortable right now that if, like, hockey shut down forever tomorrow, that's a pretty damn good legacy. I mean, one of the great legacies in hockey history for just two guys. It always will be to be. It always will be. So I don't think there's, sometimes my colleagues in Canada,

just assume that every Canadian player wants to go back to Canada. And, you know, I'll just say this. Maybe that's true, but here's what I know. The two greatest Canadian players ever play for the penguins, they never want to leave. One didn't, and I don't think one will. So maybe Pittsburgh has a little bit of Canada to it, that uh that uh that uh that uh that that makes that or maybe it's that both sydney and

what they have most in common is they're remarkable creatures of habit and they hate change and i don't think they're looking to change no i don't think so either you know i've always had people come up to me and say yeah you know i think sid will retire but malkin will go back to russia or just go to a different team at some point i'm like now they're gonna they're not going to make the same mistake what happened with yager where they let him get away and then mario doesn't want that either mario's because no look at I think there's a chance of Gennie will maybe consider going back to Russia even after he's done in Pittsburgh only because, you know,

he might be able to go over there and say for Magnitogorsk play a very limited schedule and make a ton of money doing it. And he's very drawn to that franchise despite the fact that they extorted him once to try to keep him in Russia. But that's a different situation. Yeah. And people got to remember, Mario doesn't have a lot of regret. From what I understand, one of his big ones is the Yager situation.

Now, part of that was they had to make the move financially. They felt Yager needed a change. But the big reason Mario has said he wants Yager's number retired is he feels that the way the Yager situation ended here shouldn't be what people remember as much as the 11 great seasons. Exactly. And that's why I think he's very adamant of wanting to keep these two around. He knows that in Pittsburgh, legacy matters. Yeah, exactly.

And that's why I just, I want them to finish here. I'm hoping this thing with Chris LaTang, we'll see you at that point. No, who's going to be their two centers? Like, that's why I always tell people, too, like, okay, yeah, you're going to train of getting Mov and you're going to trade Chris LaTang. Let's just say we live in a world where that happens. Who's your second center? Like, you got to go get a second center then, right?

Is he better than he's getting Malkin? I don't know. And then the same with Chris Lentan. Whatever Chris Lentang's flaws are, I think we've seen, like they only have so many guys that can play 30 minutes a night when they need them to. Exactly. Like,

there's a segment of the fan base, I think, that just takes his mistakes and puts them at another level. I'm not going to name names. I see them all the time, but it is kind of ridiculous. I mean, Chris is a fraud. Chris is an imperfect great player

So is it plenty So is Sydney And they all are I mean there's only been one perfect player The history of this franchise And they're only only one who will be And by the way You know

He was perfect except for physically His body broke down a lot So come on I mean like I do say this You know fans have always liked Not liking me in some cases And that's fine

I've played the heel and I don't run from that. I'll just say this. If you're a fan of this team and you're the age of 35 or younger, okay, you've had it really damn good. So- Can confirm. Take a deep breath. I can confirm.

I've had it very good for most of my years. It's been great. I know the end is coming at some point, but it has been great. Rob, we're going to keep you around for a little bit longer. Before we do that, we just get to see. some stuff about this year's team. We do have to talk about Bill Bar, there's 18 amazing flavors, six new ones, cookies and cream, cherry bark, lemon, almond cheesecake, or a few.

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Just to finish up on the GM stuff, Rob, before I just ask you one quick question about this year's team. I know it's a little early. Do you have a prediction as to who you think will be named general manager or do you think it's just... No, I'm not. I mean, I had to ask. I just had to ask. I tell people all the time. You know, every time somebody asks me who's going to win the Stanley Cup, I predict the

Penguins anymore. People go, well, do you really believe that? I said, you know, predictions are a real good way to look stupid. So I predict the Penguins every year to win the Stanley Cup because, you know what, some years I'll be right. Some years I won't. And at the end of the day, who the hell cares? No, I don't have a prediction. I have, here's my prediction. They will have another general manager. Okay, okay. Well, you know, that's a good prediction at least. Hey, look, I think in the days and age we live in, you know, that's maybe not as safe as it's always been. but I have a general manager at some point. Do you think it'll be within that two to three week time frame,

or do you think they actually will wait until April to name one? That's okay. That's all. I'll ask my question about it. You know, that's a good question because I don't have enough of a sense right now. I will say this. I think that if they're going to have a GM, if they're going to have a GM this season that isn't Patrick Alvane as an interim,

it's going to happen very quickly. And I would think, you know, two to three weeks within Jim Rutherford's resigning is very quick to do a search and a hire. So, yeah, I think that's a very ambitious timeline. And I would be surprised if they could do that. So saying that, I think it's probably likely they get a general manager after. the season and ride this out. But, you know, I could get a call today that would change my mind on that. And also, I'm saying that based off more reading the team leaves than anything.

I think they want to get one quickly. But, boy, that's really ambitious. Yeah, it's going to be tough, especially just with how this season is different than any others. Real quick here before I do let you go. This year's team, man, you know, they're just, it's a weird one, I guess, is the way. to describe it. You know, I didn't really think going into this year that I'd be talking about the bottom six outplaying a lot of the top six.

I've got any Malkin struggles have been well documented on this podcast and on Penguin's Twitter and all that. Same with the Chris Littang. I've long said, you know, if they're going to keep playing like this, I don't think they will. You know, this team will not go anywhere just because I just think Malkin kind of looks lifeless out there a lot of times. But, you know, I did read Josh's article.

I think it was the other day where I think, you know, you said it on the podcast state too that there was just really no training for him in the offseason so he's just kind of trying to get his legs back you know when you look at this team you know all their defensive issues tristan jari um his goal saved above average is just terrible this year um do you expect it to turn around once um they get some of these players back and malkin and letang start playing like how they used to are yeah i mean i look i uh i guess i look at it this way i was higher on the team than a lot of people. They have nine points through eight games, and they have a minus six goal differential.

So I take that as like, you know, maybe they're better than we thought. I mean, they're down five of their top 12 defensemen organizationally that they expect that they expected coming into camp right now. That's really tough. It is. It's a weird year. You know, look at the two Boston games. The game, the second game in Boston is the worst of the year.

The first one I thought was the best of the year. I mean, I thought they were better in that game than Boston. I thought so, too. So I'll say this. I expect Malkin will, you know, Malkin's going to be fine once he gets his legs. Now, maybe he doesn't get his legs this year, but I think he will. I know they're working on that. You know, I think you could look at every one of their star players and go, oh, boy, you know, and they haven't been what we thought.

But, you know, their bottom six has been a little bit better. They have a little bit more adeptive forward than I thought. I long thought that one of Jim's big mistakes was signing Rico to the contract he did because it made more of a hindrance to getting Joseph into the lineup. up and I thought Joseph was closer to being ready. And even if he wasn't, I thought having him play up here would make them better midway through the season. He shouldn't see the bench again, by the way. That's happening now. He shouldn't see the bench again.

Right. So, I mean, I guess I'll say this. Two things. I still think between Washington, Boston, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, and I'll still say the Islanders, even though, man, they've, you know, been disappointing. I will still say those five teams

are probably going to finish within five to six points of one another from one to five and two of them aren't going to make the playoffs or the one of those not going to make the playoffs. And I still think that's the way this is going to play out. I think these teams are too evenly matched

and all are equally flawed in some area for they're not to be games where pace and point, you know, if the penguins come out of Boston with zero of four points, it's a disaster, but they came out with one of four, and that's less of a disaster. Look at the Rangers, right? They lost two games in Pittsburgh, but they came away with points. Same with the capitals, right?

Lost two games in Pittsburgh, came away with points. It's so hard to judge it. So that's one thing. I think the system is set up for a team like the penguins to sort of be in it. And so there's that. then there's this. Their top six scoring, you have to think that will come around.

You've seen signs of what the power play, excuse me, what the penalty kill can be. It's really tough for me to think the power play is ever going to be anything other than sort of like a cluster because it's just they seem programmed to do the wrong thing so many times. It's so terrible to watch.

It's just like the same, they're overpassed and they just don't shoot. just think that's going to change. But I think Mike Sullivan's a really good coach. I think you're seeing that again. I think Todd Reardon is a really good coach. Here's what I think. If Tristan Jari doesn't play better, it doesn't matter.

Yeah. I mean, he was starting to play better those last few games. I mean, I think he was 920 in one of the games. I mean, even in the game, the first one against Boston played pretty well. The Penguins honestly should have won that game. Gino just kind of, you know, that over today, and the breakaway, the 2-0 and overtime, it kind of just reminded me of the Chris Coonet situation

from the Cup final in game six, where you just like pass it right back when you had a wide open net. Yeah. But, and then this past game, I mean, I really can't blame Jari. I'd expect Jari to go again tonight just because I thought he was playing better,

but... The Smith is going. Oh, he is? I actually did not see that going into tonight. So I guess that does make sense a little bit that they're going to give him a night off. And they also got three and four days. So, you know,

So it's tough, you know. Yeah, I hear you. So, I mean, we'll give them a little bit of rest. I think they should be able to win these next couple games to get back on the right track. I think the Rangers are going to be a good team soon, but their depth and their defense is a major team. If they get two points out of these next two for as bad as they look at the one night in Boston, if they get three points out of the possible eight, that's not ideal, but that's not a disaster. And I think this year, more than any, people have to get used to this idea.

you have to look at it differently. You have to look at it as how, you have to look at it as like, what is the acceptable number of things before you panic? You know, everybody panicked after 0-2, right? Yeah. The number four in a row was like,

oh, well, you know, like I said, nine points after eight games, given the schedule they faced, and given there you have a six-goal negative differential, wow, it could be a lot worse. Yeah, I think it could, you know, especially just, you know, with how they've had to come back in every game this year.

I mean, Rob, I think they've only led for 25 minutes in their A games. I mean, I don't even think I've ever heard of that before. Well, I'll give you on this. They've now trailed in 12 of their first. They've now trailed first and 12 of their last 18 regular season games. On real. Dating to the slide last season. That's a problem.

Yeah, it's like, and they can't even, one, they can't even get a one-nothing lead. They can't even get a multi-goal lead. I don't think they've had one multi-go lead at all. We're almost 10 games in. That's just for Sid and Gino's Penn. wins, man, that's almost unheard of, almost 10 games into a year. So we'll see if maybe that changes tonight.

I'm sure it will as I say this. But, Bob, thank you so much for coming on. Man, man, for all that information. I really appreciate it. And, you know, who knows? Maybe they'll name a GM here in the next week or something. You'll get that call today. That'll change everything.

Let's hope not. It comes Monday. Yeah, yeah. Maybe they'll name it on Monday. But yeah, but thank you so much, man. I really do appreciate it. Okay. Anytime.

Thanks. See up, guys, that'll do it. Thank you guys so much for this episode of the Lockdown Penguins podcast. We'll be back on Monday for five more episodes, so I will talk to you all that.