Locked On Penguins - Daily Podcast On The Pittsburgh Penguins - What lessons can the Penguins learn from the Golden Knights?

Episode Date: June 19, 2023

It's Monday, so that means it's time for another episode of Locked On Penguins. For this one, Hunter is joined by Chris Mack of Fifth Avenue Faceoff and 93.7 The Fan to talk all things Penguins. They first discuss what the penguins can take away from the Golden Knights winning the Stanley Cup this past year, especially when it comes to their blue line. Chris also brings up a good point about their forward depth before the conversation shifts to if the team can learn anything from the Panthers' run to the Stanley Cup Final. After that, Chris gives his take on what he would do with the No. 14 overall pick and if that differs from what Hunter thinks the team should do. They even have a discussion on how many total changes the backend needs, including if PO Joseph is ready for full-time second pairing minutes. Chris then gives his thoughts on what he wants some of the bottom six to look like before the two end the show with a discussion about how much "youth" this team needs going forward.Support Us By Supporting Our Sponsors!BirddogsGo to birddogs.com/lockedonnhl and they’ll throw in a free custom birddogs Yeti-style tumbler with every order.GametimeDownload the Gametime app, create an account, and use code LOCKEDONNHL for $20 off your first purchase.ebay MotorsFor parts that fit, head to eBay Motors and look for the green check. Stay in the game with eBay Guaranteed Fit. eBay Motors dot com. Let’s ride. eBay Guaranteed Fit is only available to US customers. Eligible items only. Exclusions apply.FanDuelMake Every Moment More. Don’t miss the chance to get your No Sweat First Bet up to ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS in Bonus Bets when you go to FanDuel.com/LOCKEDON.FANDUEL DISCLAIMER: 21+ in select states. First online real money wager only. Bonus issued as non-withdrawable free bets that expire in 14 days. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Gambling Problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit FanDuel.com/RG (CO, IA, MD, MI, NJ, PA, IL, VA, WV), 1-800-NEXT-STEP or text NEXTSTEP to 53342 (AZ), 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat (CT), 1-800-9-WITH-IT (IN), 1-800-522-4700 (WY, KS) or visit ksgamblinghelp.com (KS), 1-877-770-STOP (LA), 1-877-8-HOPENY or text HOPENY (467369) (NY), TN REDLINE 1-800-889-9789 (TN) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Well, I hope everyone had a wonderful, wonderful weekend. Happy Monday. The guests continue to roll in for today's episode. I am joined by Chris Mack of 93-7 The Fan and Fifth Avenue Faceoff to discuss a whole bunch of other topics relating to the Pittsburgh Penguins. That's coming up right after this. You're Locked-on Penguins. Your daily podcast on the Pittsburgh Penguins. Part of the Locked-on Podcast Network. Your team every day. and welcome back to another episode of the Locked-on Penguins podcast. I am your host, Hunter Hodes, and are to follow me on Twitter at Hunter Hodes, follow the show's Twitter at L or Swingling's. And, of course, thank you all so much for making this year first list of today. We are free and available on all platforms. Join me now for the first time on Locked on Penguins is Chris Mack of 937 The Fan and

5th Avenue face off. I went on his show about, I think it was three to four months ago at this point, and I thought it would only be right if he returns the favor and comes on my show. So Chris really appreciate you coming on. How are you doing? Great, great. Happy to return the favor anytime, Hunter. I appreciated you coming on at the time.

I think we were sitting there biting our fingernails over whether this team would actually get into the playoffs or not. And as we know, that did not turn out the way any of us wanted it to. So now we're turning the page, right? It's Dubus, it's Spetsa, it's whatever may happen to this roster in the next few weeks and months. and looking ahead to, you know, what the big three can get done in maybe their final few years together with new leadership. Yeah, there's a brand new hockey operation staff in, as he said, Kyle Dubus running the show. Jason's Betza came on board last week. I'm sure there's going to be other moves in the coming days slash week slash months.

But right now, this is the Dubis show and he's going to make the moves that he feels our right to get this team back in contention. And, you know, before we get to some of that little later on in the show, So Stanley Cup final, Chris ended last week, the Vegas Golden Knights, get their first Stanley Cup of franchise history. They dismantle the Florida Panthers and end their pretty big Cinderella run because I don't think any of us saw them going on that magical run. I hadn't talked about this topic on the show yet. And I wanted to get your thoughts on it. What lessons do you think Kyle Dubus and the Penguins could take away from Vegas winning it? Because that team is loaded again heading into next season.

I think the lesson learned. and it's something that really probably should have been learned over the last couple of years with Brian Barka, part of the leadership team, is that size and having size present on your roster does not need to negate the speed available to you on your roster as well, right? And I think that's, that's my biggest takeaway, that it's still valuable to get to the front of the net and create chaos and to have the guys that can prevent your opposition from doing that. Vegas was perfectly built to neutralize what a team like the Florida Panthers had done to get hot down the stretch and ride out three rounds of the playoffs. They had been pesky. They had been persistent. I promise I'm not going to try to use alliteration more than just this once. They were Matthew Kachuk embodied the entire team, right?

And so when they got finally to the Stanley Cup final to face the Vegas Golden Knights, they were up against a team that was built to neutralize that with the size they have on their blue line. You can look at their blue line. I don't think there's anybody smaller than six do. It's a bunch of beasts. It's like skating into a bunch of redwood trees. So even if you are pesky, even if you are persistent, it's not always going to produce results. And that's what the Florida Panthers saw up to it, including their guy not being able to play in the final game of the series, right? because he had been so physically abused by those big blue liners for Vegas. So I think the lesson there is that you can build a team that has that size available to it,

but can still skate and therefore play Mike Sullivan's system and a system that should benefit a team like the Pittsburgh Penguins. Yeah, they're kind of like the hybrid team that I think a lot of front offices are going to try to build now. You look at a team like the Dallas Stars, they have a good mix of young, speedy, skill players and some veteran guys who can bring a little bit of physical presence. They have a deep back end. Vegas, especially on the blue line, they are very deep with their back end.

And I think that's one of the biggest things Dubis is going to look to do this summer is change up that back end so he can get maybe a bit bigger back there, a bit faster, you know, add some players who can add more offense to the back end. That's not just Crystal Tang and maybe a little bit of Jeff Petrie. I think that's what I think a big lesson that could be learned from Vegas winning is the penguins getting a similar kind of defensive back end. Yeah, and I think it's teaching guys how to use their size to their advantage. POJ still hasn't really filled out.

He's a guy that can use that to his advantage. Marcus Pedersen, despite maybe having the size to do so, is sometimes reluctant. I think we saw a little bit more of it this season, but sometimes reluctant to engage that way. So again, you look at Vegas's roster all the way down through their prospect pool. I think there's maybe two or three guys on the back end. who are smaller than 6-1. You've got to be focused on how you can use size and speed.

Those things are diamonds in the rough to find with the same player. They've got the opportunity to build someone into those roles with guys like Pedersen and POJ, who should be the future of their blue line. The question is, are those guys ready to take that next step? Pederson, I think, is. Is POJ ready to, I don't know what his off-season plan is, but is his offseason plan include getting bigger and stronger. It should because that's the kind of defensemen you're going to need in this day and age.

And if you're really going to try and truly copy the Vegas blueprint for success. Yeah, I would agree with that. I do think with POJ, I mean, they see him as that full-time player for next season. He played most of the games this year. Even though I do think they're going to make changes back there, I don't think he's going to be among them just because he's still a young player, someone who can grow, you know, both offensively. And I thought he was good offensively this season, but especially defensively.

I thought he gave a little bit back in the defensive zone. Wasn't good enough if he can work on that part of his game heading into this year. He can form a pretty bona fide, whether it's a second third pairing. I'm guessing he'll be on the third pairing. I don't know for sure, 100%, but my guess right now is it'll be on the third pairing with, you know, Jan Rudda, if he's still there, someone else, maybe Chad Ruehle, if they want to give him more minutes or they'll bring in someone else. I don't know.

Yeah, the key there. I think is don't, don't, I'm not as convinced that this blue line is, it needs as much work as it does. I think it's about working with the pieces that you have, like I mentioned with Pedersen and POJ. You'd like, I think, to get Petrie's number off the books if you can. Good luck pulling that off. Maybe I know we'll talk, I know we'll talk a little bit about what they do with the 14th overall pick. That might be something that you package with Petrie. I don't want to say simply to get the number off the books, but it might be something that you have to do. Or you use. live with Petrie as maybe a third pairing defenseman, cut back his minutes even more, let him focus on

penalty killing. But then if you're pairing him with Ruta and you've got two slower, bigger defenseman on your third pairing, that's going to expose that third pairing, even if all they do is skate 12 minutes a night plus a couple of penalty kills. So Ruta may be one that you look at as a spinoff option. It's not as big a number to get off the books, but it gets a couple of years. off the books. I really like going forward the top three that they have in place of Latang, Pedersen and POJ. And I think POJ should get second pairing minutes. I don't know how much longer they're going to wait for him to develop. He's 23 now. He's been at this level for a full season. Let's get him in there. The feet are beyond wet. It's now about learning to swim in the

deep end for POJ. And I think if you if you're keeping around either Ruta or Petri for your third pairing, then now it's about, you know, do we, do we believe in a freedman or a Smith maybe as the other piece on that third pairing? And what else are we looking to do to help POJ as a second pairing defenseman? Is there a veteran compliment out there that can play the other side? There's, there's some things to figure out there. But I'm not nearly as worried about the blue line as some people are and certainly not as worried about it as I am the forward depth on the third and fourth one. Yeah, the forward depth is also a pretty big concern considering they don't really have much of a way in the bottom six and then they'll still have to figure out goal tending.

I am so of the belief, Chris, that they need to go out and get at least one bona fide, top four left-handed defenseman for this offseason to either play on the second pairing or especially to play with Crystal Teng. I like Marcus Pedersen, but I think he serves you better in a second-peering role. And you can bring in someone maybe like a Noah Hannathan or someone else that's on the trade market to come play, you know, 24, 25 plus minutes a night with your workhorse and Crystal Tang. I think that's definitely up there on Dubus's wish list. And I'll be curious to see if he, you know, get that at some point.

Yeah, I mean, there are names out there if you just scroll through. And all you have to do is, you know, we know how to do it. I'm sure a lot of fans know how to do it too who listen to Lockdown Penguins is go to cat friendly, sort the information, find your left-handed, unrestricted free agent defenseman. and then start looking at some of the stats that are available to you, even if it's things like Corsi and Fenwick for and against. And you scroll down the list and you start to find maybe some affordable options who haven't gotten the exposure in the markets that they've been in,

or maybe your journeyman. I have no problem, for example, going out and adding, I don't know, I'm throwing a random name out there now, Calvin Dahan on a one-year deal or a two-year. You know, this is, it sounds random at first. You go, what the heck do I want that guy for? But you're talking about piecing something together, finding a veteran compliment for POJ who might be able to provide what he needs to let him skate. Let him skate.

And again, on the back end, use his size to do some of the things that we saw, I think the Vegas group do on their run. Yeah, no, I for sure agree with that. Lastly, though, Chris, before we get to a break here, do you think there's any lessons to be taken from the Panthers and their Cinderella run to the final? Do you think the Penguins can take anything from that other than a goalie just getting hot and trading for a top 10 player in the off season? Yeah. I mean, is it that easy? I think, you know, to me, I kind of take it at more of a 50,000 foot level. Yes, players like Kachuk, I think are invaluable. But there's not a lot of players like Matt Kach.

So don't hold your breath that they're going to run out and find one this off season. I think it's more about the idea. And, you know, I've heard for years people say, ah, the regular season doesn't matter. The regular season doesn't matter. The regular season doesn't matter. The regular season doesn't matter. Just get to the playoffs. Well, getting to the playoffs is not as easy as it once was, especially in the Metro, especially in the Eastern Conference. And I think there's got to be an adjustment in attitude and philosophy. Look, the Panthers struggled with it much of the year, despite going to the conference finals a year ago, right? They struggled to stay focused on regular season, regular season until their backs were up against

the wall, the final few weeks of the regular season, and they stepped on the gas and found their way in and left the penguins out. The penguins never stepped on the gas. They never found the on switch at the end of the regular season. And I think this is more of a Mike Sullivan, Sidney Crosby type task where how are we going to lead guys into hitting the switch, stepping on the gas earlier? Look, no one wants to think of a of a team with Crosby, Malkin, LaTang at the helm as a team that needs to relearn leadership. I don't want to call it re-learning leadership, but looking at the October, November, December, early January games, as importantly as you do, late February, post-trade deadline,

March games and saying, hey, everything is worth two, maybe three points, but at least worth two to us in the standings. what do we do to get up for those games in early January, even February before the trade deadline, and stop telling ourselves, hey, we'll find our way in. It's okay. We'll find our way in. I don't want to say that's what was going on in the heads of the penguins guys in the penguin's locker room this year. But I do think that it's natural when you've been to the playoffs every single year of your career other than your rookie year. I think that's just human nature to think that at some point the switch will get flipped and you guys will figure it out. I think that happened to them a bit down the stretch this year.

And when the switch wasn't flipped, when they didn't find the desperation, then that's what you see, what we saw, that final week of the regular season, failing to beat Chicago at home in the month, the four to six weeks preceding that. Losses to Ottawa and Montreal and just the loss to San Jose. home, right? One point, one point, Chris. That's all they needed. One one of those games, Hunter, goes to overtime. And they're in the playoffs. And we're not talking about Matthew Kachuk right now. Maybe we're talking about the Bruins going on a run or whatever it may have been in the Eastern Conference. But that's that needs to be put up. They've got a bunch of signs, you know, those single words, motivational signs, integrity, discipline, honor, all that stuff. Up on the walls of the Penguins locker room. All

All I need to see up on a giant sign and Mike Sullivan can write it on the dry erase board the first day of training camp is one point, one point. One more point gets us in the playoffs and we're not talking about the end of the playoff streak. One more point. Who knows maybe where the team that knocks off the Bruins and goes on a run? We don't know if it could have been us, even though nobody believes it could have been because we didn't get that one point.

And so I do think there needs to be more of a killer instinct in this team. And hopefully simply missing the playoffs this year and having to sit at home and watch the team that costs them that playoff spot go on a run is enough for them to feel that motivation. But again, I think it's on Mike Sullivan and Sidney Crosby to drive that home this year from day one of training camp. One more point. And we're the ones in the playoffs, not the team that ended up going to the cup final from the Eastern Conference. It's just so crazy how I had like a rippling effect or a domino effect. Whatever you want to say, you see those memes on Twitter of just the dominoes. That's what happened with this.

And you're right. One of those games goes to overtime or heck, they even win one of those games they lost in overtime. Earlier in the year, excuse me, when they stunk in OT, they're in the playoffs and none of this happened. But, you know, I know missing the playoffs this upcoming season is not an option for this franchise. And I think you're going to see a very hungry core group, you know, trying to get then back to the playoffs. I think we'll find out very early on, Hunter. They'll inevitably have, you know,

everybody has a moment in October or November, or maybe they lose a couple of games in a row, or maybe they lose an ugly one that they didn't expect to lose, whatever the moment may be. They'll have a moment early in the season, maybe an unexpected injury, although knock on wood, that doesn't happen. But something will happen early in the season

where they'll either stand up and show some desperation early on or they'll be what they've been the last few years, which is those kind of sit, back and say, ah, we'll figure it out. They can't have that passive attitude this year. There's got to be a much more aggressive, like I said, killer instinct, desperation, the kind of things that teams who haven't gone to the playoffs in a couple years would have. Well, you missed it this year. Let's step back on the gas, like I said earlier. Yeah, no, I agree with that. And I do think you're going to see that as well. That wraps up this first segment. Coming up after this

break, we're going to get into some more stuff regarding the initial draft. It's nine days away. The Penguins have the 14th overall pick. We're going to get into whether Chris thinks they should keep it or potentially move it for someone coming in or maybe attach it as a sweetener for something else. But before we get to that, for a championship team, it's all about making sure every player is a perfect fit. It's the same when it comes to your vehicle. Every part needs to fit just right. So the next time you need parts and accessories, you can head to eBay motors with eBay guarantee fit. You can be sure every part you need fits right the first time around. Just add your ride to my garage and look for the green check to know the part will fit.

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let's ride. eBay guarantee fit only available to U.S. customers, eligible items only, exclusions apply. All right, I'm back here on this episode, the Locked on Penguins podcast. I'm Hunter Hodes. I'm joined by Chris Mack of 937 The Fan and Fifth Avenue Faceoff. So, Chris, the draft is in nine days for crazy how this is coming up really quick.

And I think you're probably going to see it get maybe a little bit more busy this week with teams, maybe getting to some business. Penguins have the number 14th overall pick. I've had a few guests on the past week or two just getting their thoughts on the situation. Chris, what would you do with the pick? Because I'm dap into my draft prep for the show later this week, into next week. there are some really good players that could be available for the Penguins with this pick. But when it comes down to it, do you think they should keep it or do you think they should move it?

I don't know if the 14th spot overall, and I'm no draft nick by any means. I defer to people that know more about the prospect pool in that instance. But I find it hard to believe from just the cursory reading I've done that you're going to get someone at the 14th pick overall, Hunter, who has impact within the next two years. And if that's the case, then I've got to think about what else I can get done with the 14th overall pick other than drafting someone. And that's where it becomes about offloading a big cap hit. If I can do that, where it becomes about maybe acquiring someone young but NHL ready, maybe with a year or two of experience under their belt already. Whatever I think I can get done.

Maybe it's the goaltending issue that gets fixed with the 14th overall pick because that still needs to remain. and I think is Kyle Dubus and Jason Spetz's first priority is remedying the goaltending problem, knowing there's not a lot out there on the free agent market this year in the goaltending market, that 14th pick overall might be prime for using to pull off a goalie swap of some sort. So that's where I would be looking is using it to fix an issue on this year's roster, rather than trying to use it to fix a projected problem on 2025 or 2026's roster. Because to be quite honest, we don't know what this team is going to look like then. And I think Kyle Dubus has been handed pretty distinct marching orders,

which are build an organization that can get these guys one more good run at the cup, even if they don't win it. And when it does come time for them to cast to the wind, these three, whether it's in a couple of years in Malkins or Latang's case, or many years, as I've, believe it'll be in Sidney Crosby's case, then worry about the rebuild. Don't worry about that now. Worry about what you've got at the NHL level right now, which is what I would use the

14th pick for. Yeah, I also think it could be a situation where you see how the board is falling, I guess, with who's getting picked. For example, you know, my dream scenario for the Penguins is Zach Benson at 14. I think he has a top five potential in this draft. There's chances that he could fall. But if he doesn't, I would maybe start looking to move on from it because, you know, I like Braden Yeager more than most.

His shot is beautiful. But at 14, I don't know if that's truly good value. You have Gabe Perrault who could fall there as well. Quentin Mustie is also there. Those are just some options that I've been really been really watching over the weekend and into today. But if you can't get one of your top options, I do think it's probably best for you to try to get what you can for it or potentially move down in the draft and try to recoup some picks. I've seen that idea thrown around a lot because Kyle Dubas has had a tendency. to do that when he was in Toronto.

And maybe, you know, you do move down, you know, six or seven spots and you attach a bad contract and say, hey, if you want to move up, you can have our pick, but you got to take on, you know, part of this contract. Maybe we'll retain a little bit of it, something like that. Yeah, I think it becomes not even maybe necessarily moving back in the first round, depending on what they think of the guys who are somewhere in that 10 to 40 range. But maybe it's more about moving back into later rounds. Hey, if I can deal 14 overall with, again, I'll throw a name out, Yon Ruda's cap hit to get it out the door.

Again, not a big cap hit, but if I deal that, okay, now I've got a chance to bring back not just the cap space. And yes, again, you'd like to move more cap space out than just two and two and three quarter million, which I think is Ruta's cap hit for the next couple years. But maybe I'm bringing back a second round. Maybe I'm bringing back a third and a fourth. And I'm thinking about, you know, this team has found value in those rounds before. They found value in the college free agent market in the past. And I think those are the paths that help you surround the aging core of this team

with capable talent faster than necessarily going out and getting the kid who's going to have another year or two at juniors. And then a year of seasoning in Wilkesbury, maybe before he finally hits. That's not, if I'm Kyle Dubas, we can work on those things later in the draft, maybe. But I am all about right now and what I can get. for now because it's about what I can do in the next two years immediately because of the next two years, that's when Sidney Crosby's contract expires. And we're going to want to sign him to an extension. And I am, again, of a personal belief, I've talked with lots of people about this, that he,

I think he might be one of those guys who's like got that Tom Brady kind of mindset who wants to play until he's at least 45 because we don't see it in an appreciable drop off in his skill level. And if that's the case, he is going to want to keep playing. He loves the guy. game too much to not play. And so I'm going to, I'm going to focus on the now if I'm Kyle Duvus. Yeah, I think these next couple of years are the big ones. He is going to sign an extension here. They're not going to let him go to a team like Colorado or something like that so he can team with Nathan McKinnon. But the focus, you know, first off, it's this year getting this team back, maybe getting them to be a contender because after all, Vegas, they missed the playoffs last year,

then look what happened here. I know a little different situation with the team they have. So I think that's going to be Kyle Dubus's goal heading into this offseason. But, you know, switching gears a little bit from the draft. Obviously, I think, Chris, you are in the same with me with goaltending. I think that's the biggest priority without or what, 12 days away now from free agency. There's not a lot out there. You're probably going to have to go out via trade if you want to get rid of Chris and Jari. And there's really been no update on whether they have started contract extension talks with him.

They're keeping that very quiet. they have. But outside of that, what are you looking for in a new bottom six for this season? Because they need to add players who can support the top guys when they're not on the ice because it can't just be Cindy Krazi putting up 90 plus points. It can't just be of Guinea-Malkin putting up 85 plus points. Jake Gensel scoring 35 plus goals. Ricard Raquel, same thing.

You need adequate depth to score maybe 12 to 15 goals on your third or fourth lines, something like that. What are you looking for in terms of the new bottom six this year? I think this is going to sound crazy, but bear with me as I explain this, a little bit more of what they have. They've got Drew O'Connor. They've got Alex Neelander. They've got Ryan Paling. All guys with a little bit of size, O'Connor could still fill out a little bit more, or at least he doesn't look.

He's 6-3-200, 205, whatever it is. He doesn't necessarily always play like he's 6-3-205. I think it's in there, though. But O'Connor, Nealander, paling. are a good start to a bottom six, I think. I think they can play a Mike Sullivan style. I think they can be agitators at times, especially O'Connor. They can get in people's kitchen. They can play that Matthew Kachukh style that we talked about. They're not as talented as Kachuk, obviously, but that's why they're on the bottom six. And then I think you've got to go out and you've got to

what's nice about them is you're not talking about anybody over the age of 25 in any of those three guys either. So you're young, you're fast, and you're willing to throw yourself around a little bit, whether it's in front of the net or in the corners. Because, again, the game has evolved from a puck possession game to a puck retrieval game. It's all about going and getting the puck deep in the opposition zone and then creating below the hashes. This isn't what it was even five years ago, six years ago, when the penguins won their last

two cups, when you could, with a talent like Chris LaTang, skate the puck up and out of the zone, through the neutral zone, have a nice clean entry, and create a. offense like that. It doesn't exist anymore, not with these guys at this age. So go out, find yourself some young, speedy guys who are willing to throw their bodies around. And I think they're already halfway there again with O'Connor, Nealander, and Paling, in my opinion. I do like O'Connor. I think he can be good in a third or fourth line role. I want to see more from him in a full-time capacity.

I thought down the stretch, he kind of faltered a little bit. but, you know, the games were, I think, getting a bit, a bit more important. And also he wasn't playing with the best talent in the world down there. Let's be real. Ryan Pilling, a little concerned about his back, though, Chris. I just hope that he's healthy heading into next season. That's fair. Now, Nealander, curious to see what he can do as well if he is given a shot.

But, you know, Kyle outside of that, he's done a good job bringing in quality depth to the Maple Leaf Organization. I think you're going to look to see him do that here as well. go ahead no i was just going to say you know they they've got to do a better job of you know filling out the system and i get that but again if you've if you've already got those three and you make great points about all three and why you could you could be given pause about all three of those guys um i think you build off of that rather than trying to make over two entire lines which i understand a lot of us after watching them down the stretch are probably interested in doing um but i think you've got

you've got the seeds for something there with those three. And they're all guys that I think Mike Sullivan likes the way they play. And I think if Sullivan likes the way they play, he's the one running the show as far as finding the personnel to fit his system. What we saw the last couple of years with Hex-Dall and Burke is not always going out and finding guys to fit Sullivan's system. And to be quite honest, it just didn't work at times, right? Like, I love Nick Benino. I love what Nick Benino gave them when he was here during the last two cup runs. And I was hopeful that at the very least, his style, gritty, penalty killer, veteran leadership, all of that would help them down the stretch. Now, injury prevented us from

seeing if he could or not, but I don't know if Nick Benino, a guy like that fits in Sully system anymore. No. Old, not as quick, not as skillful with the pocket. Especially getting it up and out of his own zone all the time. And so going and getting it in the opposition zone. So I think they've got a good start with those three. You know, is there a lot in the system to backfill with? Not necessarily. That's going to be tough to go out and find it, I think. Yeah, the system, at least I think you're speaking down in Wilkesbury,

not much down there, but I mean, that's not unexpected for a team. That's, you know, it's one three Stanley Cups, and you're not going to have the best prospects. You're not the Los Angeles Kings over here or anything like that. But that would do it for this segment. Coming up to end the show, we're going to get into a couple of, other topics relating to the team, including potentially some free agents that maybe Chris has had his eye on with 12 days until that Saturday, July 1st, which is when the UFA market opens.

So stick around for that coming up right after this break. All right. We're back here on this episode of the Locked-on Penguins podcast. I'm Hunter Hodes. That is Chris Mack. You know, Chris, I've been, you know, just diving into cat-friendly, seeing what options are out there for the penguins. I've looked at, you know, Edmarigas, maybe bringing him back.

There's Jamesonfer who had a really good year in Colorado. he would be great to have as someone on the third line. You can even put it on your second line. If you'd be the avalanche did that this year. David Camp, as your fourth line center would make a lot of sense. There's the Maple Leafs connection. But another one I saw over the weekend that would make sense.

Maybe it's like a reclamation project. It's maybe, you know, low risk, high reward is Jonathan Druin of the Montreal Canadians, had 29 points this season, but only two of them were goals. Played a little less than 60 games. He's a penguin killer in the past. If everyone remembers from 2016, when he just scored every game in that series with the lightning, has scored 21 goals before, scored 13 and 2018,

then scored 18 and 2019 after that. It hasn't been the same. He hasn't played full seasons, but he's also been dealing with stuff off the ice. But still this year, 29 points. That's the most he's had since 2019 when he had 53 points. Someone like that, I think, would make sense for the bottom sake. These cheap depth, maybe recommendation projects in a way

where Dubus can sign them in hopes that they can bring. value over people that run Hextal signed last year, like a Josh Archibald or something like that. Yeah, the Druin name is an interesting one. I agree with that. I think if you're really talking about you talked about size earlier, right, and how I think that's important to building out a roster after what we've seen Vegas do this year. Then you start to look at guys like a Pierre Engval, unrestricted free agent from the Islanders, scored nearly 20 goals this year. I discussed him on my show last week. I don't know how much term he's going to want or money, but he would make a lot of sense.

A ton of sense. Can play both sides. So he's flexible on which wing he plays. And then I start to look at the names that are unrestricted free agents who have been with the Maple Leafs recently. Makes sense, right? I mean, we've got Dubas and Spetsa coming in. I see an Alexander Kerfut out there. It doesn't necessarily fit the size bill that we talked about, but maybe a guy who you can get on a cheaper deal, only 10 goals last year.

I scroll up the list and I see this is a blue line option, but an Eric Gustafson, right? Gustafson, a left-handed defenseman who only scored seven goals last year, but perhaps he's a guy who helps with some experience level on the left side to POJ, like we talked about earlier. And then I see a Michael Bunting and I go, oh boy, there we go, four man's Jason Zooker. If they can't retain Zooker and they're looking for a middle six guy, I think Bunting's perfect.

Again, probably going to be able to get them. It might be a little bit more expensive than you would think the name Michael Bunting would be. It will. But I think that's, again, a poor man's Jason Zucker. Because when you start to roll through the list of unrestricted free agents, however you want to sort it, you see Zooker right up there near the top of the list in a lot of categories. And people I think around the league are going to be, look, everybody has recency bias. they're going to look at what Zooker did this year being one of the few emotional spark plugs for this team

and say, yeah, I'll take that Zooker over the Zooker of the last two or three years every single day. There will be some buyer beware because of those previous two to three seasons. But I think Zooker is going to end up getting priced out of the Penguins market more than likely, unless they're able to clear some of that Petrie cap space we talked about earlier. And in that case, then yeah, I come back to a Barbashev. I come back to a bunting. I come back to guys that we've seen do it. Ivan Barberchv might price himself out of.

He might be totally priced out of the market too because of the playoff performance. You're absolutely right. But those are the names I think that you take a look at. Max Domey is another one. Middle six, right? Can play center on a third line and wing on a second line. Those are the names, just some of the names that I would have an eye towards because it's, Look, first and foremost, after getting the goalie situation sorted out, which may be difficult,

it may affect what kind of cap space you have left. My second priority is Zucker. I want him back. I know, like, I just, I'm now arguing against myself. But I know it's buyer beware because you don't want to believe that last season was a flash in the pan. But after what he did, like I said, being that emotional spark plug, I'm willing to roll the dice and bet on that being a part of his makeup. up coming back. And maybe you do get him a mill, mill and a half cheaper per year than you would

if he goes somewhere else. Maybe there is a little bit of desire to stay in Pittsburgh. If there is, then you get the deal done with Zucker and then you start to look elsewhere. But those are the two priorities for me. Fix goal tending. Figure out if you can retain Zooker or not and then start shopping around, sniffing around some of those names we just brought up. Yeah, with Zooker, you know, I love him too. I thought he was great this past season, 27. goals but as you were saying he just might price himself out because he might be looking for a lot of term and maybe something like five million per i'm just not really sure i would commit to that this time and you know just just going off that chris i thought i've had do you think some of these guys you

mentioned and i mentioned some of over 30 some are a bit younger than that yeah do you think dubus is going to prioritize bringing in some more younger players to really transition to the next era of penguins hockey or i hope so matter that much when it comes to some age You know, I hope he prioritizes. There's a reason every single guy I've brought up, I think, in this conversation is under 30. That's got to be a priority, I think. Up front especially. Look, Jake Gensel's not getting any younger. Once you get done with everything else this summer, you got to think about a contract extension for him as well. So, yeah, every single guy I mentioned on that list that we've thrown out here is under 30. I mean, it's almost to the point where when you're sorting through the names of unrestricted free agents,

you check 30 and over off the list and say, no, thank you. Because it's not even as much about planning for, again, three or four years down the line, because I don't think that should be a part of Dubas's thought process right now, certainly not a part of Spetsa's thought process, if he's tasked with focusing on the major league roster or dubus is. whoever's focused on the NHL roster needs to focus on now, I understand. Well, why not 31, 32, 33 year olds then, Chris? Because again, as we're trying to build this thing, we're building speed with size. And I'm worried about guys, 31, 32, 33, losing those foot races as they get a little bit older.

And I've already got Crosby, Malkin, and Latang. I'm not getting, and Gensel, I'm not getting any younger. So I'm not getting any faster if I'm not getting any younger either. So that would be a focus for me. I'm just, again, scrolling down the list, Bertuzi. Tyler Bertuzi, everybody thought was going to cash in, right? He was going to go to Boston. He was going to have a huge stretcher on, a huge playoffs.

Tyler Bertuzzi had eight goals last year. I know injury played a part of that at some points, but eight goals in 50 games does not get you a huge contract. It does not get you five years, seven million, a piece. It just doesn't. And if it's less than that, then that's a name I look at as well. So there's a ton out there that I think a smart GM, a smart, sorry, director of player personnel, director of hockey ops like Kyle Dubas can focus on to help remake that middle six in particular on the fly and build around Crosby and Mawken up front. Yeah, I had the mistake of some of the

players who I thought were over 30 that you were bringing up. I think I must have mistaken a couple people that I talked about on my show last week, but whether it was, you know, Mark Schifley. I love him, even though he's a little over 30, but he had 40 plus goals this past season. Connor Hella Buck and goal, he's a little over 30 now, but he's a little more left on his contract. That's still someone I would trade for any day of the week. You can figure out an extension with him at some point down the road if you want to do

that, but, you know, just a couple of players who are a little over 30, but I think could still very much move the needle. on this team. Finally, Chris, before I let you go, you know, you've discussed it a lot already. You've kind of teased at it. Who is your top goalie option this all season for the team? I mean, if Winnipeg is deciding to tear things down in Helibu's available, that's something. I would count on Dubas already having that conversation with the Jets at this point. After that, I don't know where you, Carter Hart, if the fly. are talking to people about what they're doing in goal.

Will they trade him here? Yeah, I mean, would they? I don't know. I mean, they're so deep in the hole now on the rebuild. It might be something where they say, hey, you know, we're not going to compete against these guys for the next few years anyway. Forget about it. We're willing to pull the trigger,

especially if they can get talent in return. I mean, what's a Brian Rust for Carter Hart deal sound like? Is that the starter of something where the penguins perhaps give up a little more than they're comfortable giving up to get what they believe is an answer to position they haven't had an answer for in the last three or four years. He would have to wave there, but he would. He would. But when you go to a guy who has a no trade clause and say, hey, we're talking to our bitter

rivals about trading you there, that might in and of itself get him to release the clause and say, okay, yeah, fine. You don't want me here anymore. Trade me wherever. I'm spitballing here. But Hella Buck is the first move. And then I circle back around to. after Carter Hart, I circle back around to John Gibson.

I know people have questions, and I have questions, too, about the way he's performed the last couple of years in Anaheim. I'll just be real honest. I don't know if his head and his heart have been in it out in Anaheim the last couple of years with the rebuild that's been taking place. Now, that's a fair question to ask of a guy if you're going to bring him in as your number one goaltender. Is your head really going to be in it? Are you going to be? Because I don't, I don't think John has been necessarily all in on the idea of being part of a rebuild. I'm just guessing. I don't know that for sure, but I think coming here to play for Dubus and a team that is explicitly saying we're not rebuilding for at least the next few years would be more attractive

to a guy like Gibson and get more buy-in than necessarily coming here and being told, yeah, we're going to try and rebuild, but not or oh, we're all in on a rebuild. I think that's something I would at least circle back around to and have a conversation with him and his agent about and then after that you've got to turn to the the open market unfortunately um and maybe it's freddie anderson as a one a a casey dismiss one b or one two combo um there's just like you said there's not a lot out there it is a uh a yonis corpusolo as a as a as a one a to maybe a stronger one b if you spin to smith off somewhere else and get a stronger compliment uh or maybe if you retain Jari at a decent rate, it's a Jari and a Corpus Sala, a stronger compliment to Jari

than what you have in Dismith. All of those become options that I think you have to exhaust looking at if you can't get something done on the trade market. You do have the Melka on the trade market as well from Arizona. He top 15 goals stayed above expected last year. Yeah, not high. We was like 899, 900, but I talk about just Arizona being awful. Yeah. And I would look at him as more of a compliment to Jari. If you retain Jari, Vemelka is kind of a one B to Jari's one eight. Look, you know Jari's not playing more than 50 games. At least he shouldn't play more than 50 games. And you let those two play a good amount. You let Vemelka play 30 games as well. And you get to April and you say, hey, maybe Jari is an argument. Every team who went deep in the playoffs this year had to have an answer at goal in goal at some point, right?

For Vegas, they had five straight games in the regular season where they played a different goalie each game. They didn't find their answer in goal until the second round of the playoffs. You know, for Florida, I don't know if they necessarily went into it thinking Bavrovsky was going to be the guy. Nobody goes into a season thinking Sergey Bavrovsky is going to be the answer in goal during the playoffs. So you've got to be willing, I think about anything else to be flexible, to have two guys that you know you're going to show up in mid-April, hopefully in the playoffs and say, hey, if 1A isn't ready and hasn't played all that well

and isn't hot, we're going to be ready to pull the trigger and go to 1B. And a guy like Vamelka may prove to be that. You'd have to see it throughout the regular season. Corpus Sallo, I think, showed can be that at times. And that's, you know, Freddie Anderson can be that. So it is a question, too, of how much you're willing to spend on two goaltenders. And that is something that, you know, given what Jari may get on the open market, it might simply preclude him from coming back and being a part of the conversation.

Agreed. And you never really want to spend too much money on your goaltending anyway. that's usually the position where you want to spend the least amount of money unless you're Igor Shusirkin or Andre Vasselovsky or something like that. But it is going to get busy here very fast. There's 12 days in dope free agency. The draft is next Wednesday. I think this is, this is, this week should hopefully be funny.

You had all of Ekman-Larsen by-biles can happen at any time. We need even discuss Chris McCall-Granlon because I've discussed that probably. I've already waived. I've already waved goodbye and driven them to the airport in my mind, Hunter. I'm just, if it doesn't happen, I'll be. I'll be beside myself. Either way, this is the only time I'll discuss McCaugh-Grenlin on this episode.

I will be shocked if he is on this team next year. I will as well. But that would do it for this episode of the Lockdown Penguins podcast. Chris, what's going on on Fifth Avenue face off this week? We had Edzo on last week, and it was great stuff. Eddie is still, you can tell kind of chomping at the bit that if he got an opportunity within an organization, he wouldn't tell me if he talked to the Penguins after Ron Hextall was

let go, but there were some rumors about that out there. He didn't want to get into it, but it sounds like he's still kind of chomping at the bit. I wouldn't be surprised if at some point in the near future, maybe he got involved in Seattle where he's the color commentator and he's got family members working. He's friends with Ronnie Francis. Anyway, here and are there, great conversations with Eddie Olchick about much like we talked about what you can learn from Florida and Vegas and where the penguins are headed from here and just how much longer Sidney Crosby is going to play. So I encourage people wherever they get their podcast, search Fifth Avenue face off, go subscribe to it. We'll have a new episode out before the draft to kind of get you ready like we talked about for all the moves that may happen, not necessarily with draft picks, but at the draft. So definitely want to get people ready for that as well. Go subscribe. Go follow the podcast. Like I said, wherever you get it, it's on YouTube as well, much like Locked on Penguins. And people can keep up to date with both of us and how we're getting ready for this offseason. Yeah, please go listen to his show.

Chris does a great job he brings on guests. Thank you. Every week he always has Eric Tangradie on, for example, former Penguin, of course, and a bunch of other guests as well. So again, Chris, thank you so much for coming on. I very much appreciate it. I'll definitely have to have you on at some point again. This off season and then definitely during the next season as well.

Really looking forward to that. Should be a fun week here. I'm going to continue to finalize my Penn-specific draft board for later this week into next week with a draft coming up. So stay tuned for that. And we have a lot more to come when it comes to content on this team going forward. So again, thank you all so much for listening slash watching. And I'll be back with another episode on Tuesday.