Loremen Podcast - Loremen S5Ep54 - The Crooker of Derwent River with Willow Winsham

Episode Date: October 17, 2024

A country walk always brings to mind certain maxims. "Stop and smell the roses," for one. "If a tree falls..." is another. But now there's a new one - "Beware the Crooker!" The boys are taken to a spooky Derbyshire riverside by historian and author Willow Winsham. You might feel a gnarly wooden finger tingling your spine in this episode. But James and Alasdair find time to ask the big questions. Where is the River Darren? How do you hypnotise a chicken? And what do you call those ski lift things where the cars are on... like... cables? Find Willow's range of books here Come see the LoreBoys LIVE in Balham on Sunday 17th November on "Who Knew It? with Matt Stewart" https://www.designmynight.com/london/pubs/balham/the-bedford/who-knew-it-with-matt-stewart-live?t=tickets This episode was edited by Joseph Burrows - Audio Editor. LoreBoys nether say die! Support the Loremen here (and get stuff): patreon.com/loremenpod ko-fi.com/loremen Check the sweet, sweet merch here... https://www.teepublic.com/stores/loremen-podcast?ref_id=24631 @loremenpod youtube.com/loremenpodcast www.instagram.com/loremenpod www.facebook.com/loremenpod Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Mama, look at me! Brum, brum! I'm going really fast! I just got my license. Can I borrow the car please, Mom? Kids go from 0 to 18 in no time. You'll be relieved they have 24-7 roadside assistance with Intact Insurance. Mom, can you go to Nana's house tomorrow? I want to- Go to Jack's place today. I'll just take the car. Don't wait up, okay? Kids go from 0 to 18 in no time, don't they? At Intact Insurance, we insure your car so you can enjoy the ride. Visit Intact.ca or talk to your broker. Conditions apply. Take back your free time with PC Express Online Grocery Delivery and Pickup.

Get in-store promos, PC Optimum Points, and more free time. And still get groceries. Shop now at PCc-express.ca. Welcome to Lawmen, a podcast about local legends and obscure curiosities from days of yore. I'm James Shake Shaft. And I'm Alistair Beckett King. Oh, and Alistair, we've got another guest deputy law person for a start today. Guest deputy deputy guest law person. Exactly that, it's Willow Winsham.

From hashtag Folklore Thursday. The very same. Whole founder of the concept of Thursdays. Yes, and she's got a very spooky tale from the River Derwent in Derby. Shire. Shire Derby. Shire. Shire, yes. Shire. And she's got a very spooky tale about a spooky tree that's

trying to drag you into the depths of the River Derwent. ["The River Derwent Theme"] Alistair. Hello, James. Hello. How are you? I'm very well. Good. Have you just choked on tea as well? No, I haven't choked on tea. That's why I'm talking in this silly way, it's not actually. Are you doing the secret guest whisper James? I'm doing the guest whisper that I- I recognised it from other episodes. It's the one where I think that the guest that's already on the Zoom call can't hear me.

Cannot hear you if you whisper. Alistair, if you've read the episode notes and episode title for this episode that we've yet to write, you'll know. Yeah. We've got a deputy guest law person. You're blowing me away with these facts, James. I know. I'm also with the voice as well.

I need to get way less breathy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't maintain that. We've got a deputy guest law person. Tell me more. It's Willow Insham. She's not only a historian, she's also an author and alongside Dee Dee Chaney has authored the Treasury of Folklore series.

And the most recent one is Waterlands Wooded Worlds and Starry Skies, which I got recently and I've really been enjoying. It's lovely. Welcome Willow, how are you doing? Willow Mellon Hi guys, lovely to be here. Willow Mellon I'm looking at the cover now and I know you're not supposed to judge a book by its cover, but I am and it looks fantastic. It's really illustrated by Joe McLaren. The front cover illustration is beautiful. Willow Mellon We love the work that Joe's done. I mean. He's illustrated all of the books in the series and designed all

the covers. Every time we've seen them for the first time, it's just blown us away. But the one for this collection, because it brings elements from all three of the books together, it's just keep looking at it and spotting different things each time. So it's like, oh, there's Pegasus, oh, there's different things lurking in the background. So it's, we're blown away by Joe's work and so excited that he's been part of the series with us. So. I think my book, my local bookshop always has a little display and they're regularly, they're regularly on the little display, but we didn't bring you here to discuss my local bookshop's little table.

In fact, Willow, have you got some folklore for us today? I have. Is it moist? Moist? There is quite a lot of moistness going on in this folklore, I have to say. I've been privy to some of this already, Alastair, you see. I see. I love a clammy legend.

It's absolutely satched. Oh, good. I like it when things are absolutely satched. Now, the folklore that I'm going to share today is from Derbyshire, and we decided to look at river related folklore. The main river near to where I am is the Derwent, which apparently nobody seems to know exactly how long it is, because I tried

again, I tried Googling and it's come up with everything from 50 miles to 60 miles to 66 miles. Who knows? And apparently there are actually four Derwents in England and the Derbyshire one, I think was the second longest. Can you tell that when I research stuff, I go all around the houses and find out really pointless pieces of information? Still, top two Durwens, not bad. The action in the story that I'm going to start with takes place along the stretch of the river between Matlock Bath and Cromford.

I've been there. Are you familiar with the Heights of Abraham? Yes. Yes, I mean. Have I gone up them? No, no. Alistair, would you believe that in Derbyshire, there is a ropeway or I can't remember what's the English word for it. Can I remember the Japanese, what they call them in Japanese places, like a gondola thing chair, not a chairlift, but it's like a, there is definitely people listen to this. We'll be screaming the word there MP3 players. So I'm just going to have to simply describe it as a room on a hook that goes up a wire. A room, a room. Is it cable car? Are we talking cable car? A cable car. I think they call

them a room on a hook. I think I've always called it a room on a hook that goes on a wire. I don't, never heard this phrase cable car. I've always called it that. That's the original title of a room with a view. I mean, look at the view. That's the only thing you can do. They didn't have the budget for the, for the hook and the wire. And so they just simplified the whole thing. It's got a window. It's got, they've got a cable car in Derbyshire.

In the height, that's how you get up to the heights of Abraham. There's a cave on top of a hill, which seems odd for some reason. But it is Derbyshire, so, you know, odd. Kind of, well, I say kind of what you expect. It's what I expect after researching this story. The tale of old Crooker, who is apparently a malevolent ash or yew tree, depending on which version you listen to, on the riverbank of the Derwent near Cromford bridge. Now this story was included in Ruth Tongues, Forgotten Folk Tales of the English Counties, that was published in 1970. Friend of the show, Ruth El Tongue.

Frenemy of the show, Ruth El Tongue. Yes, good old dear old Ruth Tongue. Not friend of the show with benefits Ruth El Tongue. No, no, that would make it a very different show and a very different set of folklore. That's law men lates. That's a completely different show. That's a different type of moist folklore, which again we'll be avoiding. But apparently in the notes accompanying the story, it says that she heard this story at a picnic in Matlock in 1927.

And obviously from your frenemies comment there, you already know that there's some speculation on how much Ruth Tong embellishes stories. Can I ask, I didn't quite catch that. Did you hear it at a picnic or did you hear it, is there a place in Derbyshire called Picnic? I'm sorry for being- No, at a picnic. Okay, I can tell from your reaction that I'm wrong.

There could be a place called Picnic. There's a place called Matlock Bath. There's a place called Matlock Bath. Yep, not to be confused with actual Matlock. It's next to Colombo Shower. Well, yeah, don't confuse Matlock Bath and Mattlock because I did that. I arranged to meet up with a friend and obviously not being from the area, we'd only ever been to Mattlock Bath and we just called it Mattlock.

So when I arranged to meet my friend and her kids there with my kids, we said, let's meet at Mattlock. And we got there and they got there and it was like, Oh, where are you? And I'm like, Oh, we're just down from the train station. We need that room on the hook. 45 minutes later, we discovered that actually they were in, you know, actual Matlock and we were in Matlock Bath and there's quite a distance between the two. And to this day, 10 years later, Matlock Bath, her family, they still refer to it as my Matlock, you know,

it's like Willow's Matlock. Yeah, we're still friends. We're best of friends. But yeah, don't confuse Matlock and Matlock Bath. But yes, this was where Ruth's tongue was, apparently, when she heard this story. It's still a cracking story though. And- I think the detail that she heard at a picnic makes it way more believable, because nobody would add a detail like that if they were just making something up, would they? It's too specific. It's very, very specific. And there's verifiable links to the area in the description she gives and which are linked to local folklore. And it's even, it's made its way into more recent

folklore books. So even if its origin isn't what it, what was said to be, since then it's made its way into more recent folklore books. So even if its origin isn't what it was said to be, since then it's actually become folklore. It's like one of the, found it on a paranormal database, old Crooker is actually on there as you know, a water spirit on the Derwent and the story itself found in more recently published stories. So it's fascinating itself seeing how folklore develops and almost gets created even if its origins aren't what they're stated to be. Will Barron Yeah, the lie to folklore pipeline is real. Emma Watson So the story, I'm going to actually read the version, the original version. A traveler was on his way to Cromford late in the evening when an old woman came from

the hillside and met him. And where are you bound for so late? She asked. The sun has gone down and it will soon be dark. This is no road to travel at night. He was silent and then she said, I see you are wise enough not to speak and put yourself in danger, but I doubt if you'll be safe from Crooker without any of the right kind of help." He looked at her in the afterlight and saw she was holding out a posy to him.

He hesitated, for it seemed as if she were dressed in green, but then he saw the posy was St. John's Wart. The old woman nodded. "'I wish you well,' she said. "'You once freed a bird from a fowler's net. I knew that bird.' "'Take the posyy and when you travel Cromford Road, show it to Crooker.

Who is Crooker? said the traveller. But the old woman was gone. He was all alone with the posy in his hand. That was an honest warning, he thought, but I must go on to Cromford for all that. And he went on his way. Another old woman was waiting for him on the lane side and though it was getting dark, he thought she was dressed in green and held a posy of primroses. No one travels Cromford Road at night, she said. I must, he said, for he knew by the posy that she wished him well. My old mother is ill and needs me. Then show these to Crooker, she said, as he took the second posy.

You freed a rabbit from a snare. I knew that rabbit. And you need the right kind of help. Who is Crooker? asked the traveller. But she too was gone and he was all alone. It will be dark before moonrise, said the traveller. I doubt I'll need my two posies on the road. That was some more honest help, but I'd feel even safer with three. I must hasten. And he went into the dusk. At the corner of the lane he met a third old woman in green holding a posy of daisies. Tis a dark and dangerous time to travel Cromford Road, she said. You can do with the right kind of help. Take the posy and show it to Crooker.

Who is Crooker? asked the traveller. She did not answer but said, You freed a vixen and her cub from a trap. I knew that cub and that vixen. So here's a second bit of advice. Keep as far from the Darent River as you can and Cromford Road runs beside it. You must be on Cromford Bridge before the moon rises. And then she too went away into the hill. And there he was, all alone with his three magic flower poses. I'll need these, he thought. Honest help never comes amiss. But I am so weary I doubt if I'll reach the shrine on Cromford Bridge before moonrise.

I'd be glad of its light, for they say Darent runs fast and deep and I'd not like to miss my footing and fall in. But when at last he came to Cromford Road, the moon was high overhead and very bright. The river swirled by just below and there were great trees on the banks above the road. They cast strange muddling shadows that moved in the breeze. I don't like the look of those moving branches, said the traveller. There's one tree all by itself that frightens me. Its shadows look like skinny clutching hands. I'm close to

Cromford Bridge now. I'll run past it." And for all his weariness he did. Then the river began to ripple loudly as if it were crying, hungry. And on the moonlit road before him he saw the chasing shadow of long crooked hands like branches. Crooker! gasped the traveller. And without looking back he hurled the posy of daisies over his left shoulder onto the road. A shadow disappeared. Darent River cried, Give! And there was a splash. A terrified traveller began a hobbling run for the safety of the bridge and its shrine. But once more the chasing shadow of Crooker came onto the road in front of him and he hurled the posy of primroses over his left shoulder. Crooker stopped.

Darent River cried, Give! And there was a second splash. Fear lent wings to the traveller's weary feet. He was almost at the bridge itself when once more the clutching shadow lay across his way. With his last strength he turned right round and flung the posy of St John's Wart straight at the wicked tree. It cried out terribly as the traveller gave a despairing leap

onto Cromford Bridge and fell in a swoon at the foot of the shrine. Derrent River roared and moaned and the good people of Cromford looked at each other white-faced. Derrent and Crooker, they whispered, We must go at sunrise and get the priest. There'll be another dead for the churchyard. Do you remember the old beggar woman we found with a broken neck? Drowned in the Derrent one night she was, he roared then. But when they came to Cromford Bridge in bright sunlight, one night she was, he roared then. But when they came

to Cromford Bridge in bright sunlight, there was a pale, foot-sore traveller saying his prayers at the shrine. He got up stiffly and hobbled on his way to the village, while the darrent river ran shallow and sunny below the bank where a great ash tree stood. Stunt. Ooh. What I like about that story is he gets the first posy and he's like, oh, posy. I'm not really interested in that. One more question and then she's gone. Whoa. And then another posy. It's like, okay, just answer me this old lady.

Oh, she's gone. And then his first thought is, well, narratively, I'm going to need three. So he's way ahead of the story. He's like, two is fine, but it feels like this is a three situation. Oh, there she is. So we're all there going like, come on, get on with it. What is, who is this crook, crooky guy? What's his deal?

So it's the river called Darren in that version of the story. It is. The explanatory notes say that it's the Derwent and I'm wondering, and again, this almost lends, you know, what's lends credence to the fact that actually is a real story because, Darren, is that a mishearing of somebody with a local accent saying Derwent? Yeah, that makes more sense. I thought you said Darren, James. I like the idea of there being a River Darren. Just a very down to earth river, normal guy, just Darren.

The River Darren, you know, best mates with the River Bill, you know, and then there's Steve, the River Steve's the, you know, the best one. They both know the River Steve, but they don't sort of know each other. They don't know they know it. Yeah. Yeah. They know each other through Steve. It's very awkward when they tributaries into each other because they don't really know how to chat without Steve there. Yeah, I do wonder if that's what's happened, if it's like an accent thing and the darrent derwent because a lot of the information, I mean the stuff about the shrine and everything on Cromford Bridge, there was an old chapel there

and everything. So the sort of situational evidence plays out that it is the Derwent that it's talking about. It's a simple Matlock bath confusion. Terrifying though. So the croaker is that is a spooky tree. That's the spooky tree apparently. With With claw like hands that are reaching branches. Yeah. Takes its sacrifice, so to speak, unless you happen to meet three ladies dressed in green. Are they definitely three different ladies?

James, James, didn't you hear the story? He met one lady and then she went away. And then a completely different lady appeared. With exactly the same vibe. And a very, very similar vibe. Yeah. James, old ladies dressed in green with similar vibes look the same to you. Shame on you. I am an old lady dressed in green racist. Yeah. Do you not know this about Derbyshire? Down along the river at every like, I think it's about every five meters or so, there's a little hut with a little lady dressed in green.

Yes. It's like those old phones a little lady dressed in green. Yes. It's like those old phones they used to have in case you broke down on the motorway. It's the same as that. Yeah, yeah, just like that. The whole, you know, oh, she's dressed in green again. It doesn't actually explain that in the story. I'm assuming it's the fairies wear green, you know, don't, I'm assuming that's what we're going for.

He's cautious. He's like, oh, she's wearing green, got to be careful here. He mustn't accept anything, mustn't talk. And I'm assuming, like I say, that that's, but yes, I'm assuming that that's what they're going for with the whole green thing. It's like, you know, beware green. The other interpretation of that character is that she's the old beggar woman, the spirit of the old beggar woman, I think. Ruth El-Tung, if she is the author of the story, has deliberately given us sort of two possible interpretations there. Like

you say, green fairy, but also maybe she's the ghost of the beggar who's trying to help someone out. But then I suppose the relationship she has with a wide range of wild animals does suggest she's more of a sort of witch or fairy figure, doesn't it? I mean, she or the three separate ones, who knows, who knows, but yes. Could be a separate woman. Or the one who knows all of the local wildlife. It's a good argument for being nice to animals though, isn't it? It is.

It is. It is. Or, you know, also a bit name droppy, you know, like, oh yes, I know that. I know that fox that you knew. Oh, and I knew that one too. It's like, you know, is there like a bit of competition going on with all the little green ladies along the river? Who knows? Yeah, I knew the vixen and the cub. I knew the rabbit before it was in a trap.

Actually. I won't digress and start talking about Mary Toft and the rabbit births. I'm just reading a book about that at the moment, but no, will not. Is she the woman who gave birth to a lot of rabbits? Yes, or allegedly gave birth to a lot of rabbits. But... Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa. Did you think that didn't happen? Well, apparently not. Where else did you get rabbits from? I really liked how we used the posies, like sort of ninja weaponry, like cal troops, cal tropes. I thought it was quite Mario Kart, like a banana skin over there.

Yeah. But then just as it's going well, get like a lightning and shrink, spin around. Yeah. Oh no, the ink is coming and now I've lost all my power-ups and there's a blue shell. Yeah. Oh no, not the blue shell. This is where as a SNES owner, I'm backing out of the conversation because I have no idea what squid ink or indeed a blue shell is. I've never heard of such things. Oh, you're lucky. You don't know the horror of the blue shell. No, but I admit with the Switch, I do like the fact that you don't fall off.

You can set it so you don't actually fall off the road, which is a game changer for me because I'm not very good at staying on the pass. I was on the grass the whole time. That sounds like a different confession. That sounds like a different confession. Yep. So the moral of the story is be very nice to old ladies, be very nice to animals and horrible to trees. But only trees that apparently entice people into the river and aren't very nice, maybe. Yes, not all trees.

Not all trees, no. Murderous trees. No, which it's interesting that there's the, was it an ash, was it a yew? Because some versions do say it's a yew tree. And yew tree, that's a phrase with absolutely no negative connotations. So it just doesn't make any sense. I mean, ash was meant to give protection against snakes, apparently, according to Pliny. As in like you make a stick out of ash and you can hit a snake with it or?

Well, apparently he'd put, apparently he tested this. He put a snake and a fire inside a circle of ash leaves and observed that the snake would rather go into the fire than cross any of the leaves to get away. Is this Pliny the Elder or the Sequel? Do we know which Pliny? I believe it's the Elder in 77 AD or CE, depending on which one we're going with. I believe that's the Elder one. Pliny the Elder died at Pompeii, I think.

Oh, wow. If he's the right, if he's the, let me double check. He sailed his boat in from Naples Bay to go and help rescue people from the eruption. Oh, wow. That's a pretty heroic end. It's noted by Pliny the Younger, I think. Okay, well, you know. Yeah, he was still pretty good.

He went to, he might have died near Herculaneum. So to a snake, they would think that Pliny's are resistant to Naples because they'd rather go into a volcano than stay in Naples. What are the properties of the difference? So what did we have? We had St. John's Wart. We did. Oh, I made some notes on that one.

Primrose. That's a famous, famous for its medicinal properties, isn't it? St. John's wart. That's one of the famous ones. One of the more famous warts. Well, apparently in the 15th century, it was believed that if someone was carrying it, the devil couldn't get within nine paces of them. Again, very specific there. I get that's like the, you won't know this, Alistair, this little sound box from Mario Kart that will just pop. Yes, yeah. There's sort of the,

Only defense against the blue shell. Absolutely rubbish and useless if you get overexcited and set it off at the wrong time, which I did yesterday when playing with the kids on it. So it's a devil, Devil repellent. Anti-dog whistle. Yes.

A devil repellent, that's a better one. Anti-devil spray. And if you gathered it on a Friday and hung it around your neck, it would drive away all fantastical spirits, apparently. It was well-known protection against witches and enchantments. And that was like well into like the 19th century. So yeah, it's generally, it seems to be, and the fact he left it till last, this is like the big guns, this is the other two. It was like, you know, just testing the waters, no pun intended, start off with the weakest of the lot and then it was like, save this one for last.

So, and I suppose you could argue, you know, the tree, is it the devil? Is it, you know, what type of evil spirit is this? I've read a lot of stuff saying that Crooker was like a water spirit and that people used to worship it and stuff, but have not found anything that really corroborates that. It more seems to be sort of extrapolated from what Ruth's tongue has said. I haven't found anything about old water spirits as such there. I think it's kind of interesting because people like to maybe impose a sort of systematic coherence to stories like this. Yeah. Like you said, it's a water spirit and this is how the water spirits work and it's all a little bit D&D, I think.

I just don't know the actual focal works like that. But also Ruth O'Toong, if there really was a picnic, if there really was a story, it's clearly applying a particular narrative sensibility to it and structure to it. We know all the dialogue from it. It's just not the way folktales work when you get them in their raw and incoherent forms where they've been sort of shaped through the natural erosion and deposition of the oral tradition. Just a very wise observation from me though. That was a very wise one, yeah.

Yeah, sometimes I do maybe a little interjection about Mario Kart, sometimes it's just very wise. I mean, obviously this guy who was walking down this down Cronford road, maybe he had a little pad and paper with him and at every point he was like, could you just say that again to the lady or ladies in green? And maybe that's why Crooker nearly got him because he kept pausing to write down his, whatever he was saying. I carry a dictaphone in situations like that. You would have escaped. You would have got away from Crooker because you wouldn't have kept stopping to write your

lines down. So what sort of property do Primrose have? I see there's a type of Primrose called the Creeping Jenny, which seems appropriate in this situation. Especially, there may even be a Jenny Greenteeth knocking around, creeping along. So yeah, what's Primrose do? They're also known for protective qualities. In Ireland, they used to place them around doorways or windowsills to protect cattle, especially on May Day and May Day Eve to keep out witches and fairies. And this one I didn't know, which I was like, oh, there's apparently

quite a common belief that eating a primrose meant you could see fairies and in some areas were known as fairy cups. I did have to Google and check Primroses aren't toxic to humans, but they are to cats and dogs. Okay. So you're more scared of them than a cucumber. Yeah. So, so if you want to go eating a Primrose in order to try to see fairies, that's fine. Just don't feed them to your pets.

Yes. In fact, the Lawmen podcast recommends that you do eat one primrose. That is our medical advice. And don't feed it to your pet. But do not feed it to your pets. That is our veterinary advice. Primrose a day keeps a homicidal ash tree away. I'm always saying that. You are actually. And this is the first time it's made sense. The Latin for primrose is primula vulgaris. So I don't know if primula, the famous cheese spread,

has the same fairy viewing properties, but you know, give it a go. There's so many experiments that I'm going to have to carry out now from this conversation. It's, yeah, though I suppose on the cheese front, you'd need to be careful not too close to bedtime or you'd end up, you might see fairies or even worse in your dreams because the whole cheese, though I don't know again, is that just one of those old wives tales? Last thing about primroses, you have to be careful how many you take into the house. If there were less than 13 in the first bunch that you brought into the house in spring, then the number of primroses you did bring in would be the number of eggs that each hen

or goose you owned would hatch in that season. So basically, less flowers equaled less chicks. So if you went out and picked some primroses and only bought in a little bunch of three, all of your hens or geese would only lay three eggs. Right. So you want to be coming in with great armfuls of primroses in spring to guarantee a good haul of eggs. And they were known as goslings or gosling flowers in Ireland apparently because they

flower at the same time of year. Oh, that might explain the connection between them and chicks then perhaps. So yeah, that's some of the random information I came across when I was researching this story. Nice one. What a triumphant conclusion to the story. Yeah, thank you very much Willow. That was a wonderful story.

Thank you so much. Thank you for the story and for the random extra bits. Yes. I like that a lot. Excellent facts. I'm going to neck a handful of primrose tonight. I'm going to fling all kinds of vegetables at a cat just to see what happens. I'm going to run at plenty with a map of Naples. Anyway, Alistair, are you ready to score us? Yes, yes, I am. I'd love to pass judgment, not just on you, but also on Ruth Le Tongue. OK, Ruth the Tongue, El Tongue.

That's what they call her. She uses that tongue for lying, for lying. Or being a writer, really. Just write stories as an author yourself, Alastair. My books are all true. First up, Willow, I suggest let's go with naming. What's your first category, Willow? Naming.

Excellent work. Well, first of all, your name is very good. Willow Winsham, that's a fantastic name for a folklorist slash historian. I don't know if this happened by chance or whether you've forged it out of the very raw materials that names are made on. The letters chiseled it out of the letter cliff. Or alphabet. I was immediately on board as soon as I heard your name. Oh, actually, I'm a little bit scared now because the baddie in the story is also a type of

tree. So I'm a bit worried at the end. Willow's going to pull up. That's a good point. Like it's sort of a reverse Scooby Doo. She'll pull a face mask on and it'll just be a shrubbery. I am actually Crooker. Yeah, it was me. It was me. He was on the Zoom for the entire time. Yeah. The Zoom is coming from inside the cops. That doesn't make any sense.

Yeah. That's where I hang out on the banks of the River Derwent. Well Crooker is a great name just in itself. It's classic. Crook. Beware Crook. Oh, you'll meet Crooker. Who's Crooker?

I see you. Oh Crooker out there on Darren'll meet Crooker. Who's Crooker? I see you. Oh, Crooker out there on Darren, the River Darren. The River Darren. Great name for a river and his pals. I've never seen a river wearing a pair of Nike Air Max before, but no. I've never seen a river with a fade shaved into his hair. Apologies to the Darren community. Yeah. Apologies to the middle-aged Darrens.

Who would have worn a shell suit back in the day. Well, we all did. It was the nineties. I was born wearing a shell suit. I didn't. I never had a shell suit. You didn't have a shell suit? I didn't have a shell suit.

No. What? Not even a shell top? You know what's most unbeatable? A blue shell suit. I don't know what a blue shell is. I'm just guessing based on what you've said. That's very accurate. Yeah.

We've got loads. I mean, there's so many good, just St. John's Wart, Primula Vulgaris, the Creeping Jenny. Oh, I forgot about Creeping Jenny. I think it's very good. I think it's a four. I think it's a four out of five for names. Yes. Excellent work, Willow. How do you like that? I like that.

That's a good start. Imagine you've just driven over a question mark block and whoa, what's coming up? What's coming up? It's a four. That's pretty good. Right then. Let's go with the next catch. We go with supernatural, I think.

Let's get him while he's on the ropes. Okay. Well, if true, it's extremely supernatural, isn't it? Monstrous and mysterious things are occurring throughout. The creepy fingers of the twigs. The long creeping fingers of the wet tree man. The three apparitions, three separate witches, or indeed just one witch. Like me going to the shops has just forgot something.

I've just got to pop back and get your primula. And then here's a daisy. And the three witches who are kind of one witch, that's a bit, that's quite folkloric. I'm sure there's some Macbethy stuff going on there. That's quite good. Three is a good number, isn't it? The poor lady that got moided by the river. The moided lady, yes.

By the croaker. And we had the number nine, another powerful number. Nine paces distance for, if you hold, I think if you showed the devil a courgette, he doesn't like that. I think that was that. Yeah, yeah, that'll do. Yeah. Throw a courgette at the devil and he runs away.

Throw nine courgettes at the devil and he never comes back. Shame on you. Just these well-known sayings. It's good to know where they come from. Yeah. Don't throw cats at anything, though. Never throw a cat. Never throw a cat. But if you hypnotize a chicken, you can do whatever you want with it. That is not advice.

Do not do that. We are not doctors. We are vets. Do not hypnotize a chicken. No. If you hypnotize a chicken, do you get it to pretend to be a person? That's a very good joke. Or it could pretend to be a courgette. Just frightening cats getting his own back on cats. It's five out of five. I think this story is true. I think it all happened exactly as described. I don't think Ruth El-Tung would lie to us again for the 19th time.

This time, you know, the old saying 19th time's the charm. This time it must be a true story that she didn't clearly make up and then lose down a well or whatever it was or, oh, my dog set fire to my shed, burned all my homework. Okay. Whatever it is. She just went to the wrong matlock. She went to the wrong matlock and lost all of her notes. I think it's true. I think it's supernatural. I think we finally proved that trees exist. Five. Excellent. What's the next category? Friend of Flora and Fauna and another old lady name. And another old lady.

I see. So you're trying to get two for one here. That describes two of the three old ladies, but also all of the animals and plants that appeared in the story. That's cheeky. And that's cheeky. There were lots of animals. If it was one point per animal, we got vixen and a baby cub, vixen. Yeah, rabbit and a little bird.

And a bird. So that's four. That's four already. And that's just the fauna. Yes. Fauna. Fauna. And then we got the three... Three posies. Yes, the three different posies.

Protective posies. And we've got the three ladies, two of which for some reason you've chosen to name in this. We couldn't think of a third name. Maybe Ivy, maybe it's Creepy Jenny. It could be Creepy Jenny. These are all good, but none of them quite add up to five. And you can't just add all of them on top of each other, otherwise that will be way too high a number.

So my feeling is you've bitten off more than you can chew with this category and I think it's a four not a five. Crooker himself, I'm saying himself, is Crooker a he? Yes, he definitely gives. Crooker is also a tree. Does Crooker count as being part of the flora and fauna? But they wouldn't be a friend of it. Well, you've solidified my decision to give this a four now. He's put the four in flora and fauna. But they wouldn't be a friend of it. Well, you've solidified my decision to give this a four now. He's put the four in flora and fauna. That sounds painful, but okay. What's your final category?

Our final category is his bark is worse than his bite. Boom. Because he's a tree. Because he's a tree. Because he's a tree. Bark like a tree. Yes. And doesn't succeed in murdering the man. And he fails to murder the protagonist of our story, the unnamed protagonist. We don't know his name.

Apparently, Crooker was never seen again after this as well. I don't know if I actually included that on the end, but apparently that was the last that anybody saw of Crooker. He was never seen again or technically before. No, yeah, it's very convenient for the overheard. But yeah, no, great. That's right. Yeah, that's good.

I'm trying to think of a way to fault this. I'm trying to think of a way to knock this bark is because he's got bark because he's a tree and he doesn't actually succeed on this occasion in grasping and devouring that poor traveler. And now this is a stretch. If you think that Ruth El-Tung made this story up and it isn't true story, then you're safe walking by the river, Darren. In fact, the story's bark is worse than the river's bite.

I see. It's tenuous and I probably shouldn't have done that. If you're walking by the river, Darren, take this no fear gear hat and leukazade to protect you. Just thinking of things that the cool boys had when I was in school. Some pogs. Don't forget the Primula cheese. I don't think that was as popular with the hard lads in my school as you might imagine,

Willow. I had not heard of it until James mentioned it earlier. Really? It's no Dairy Lee slices. No, it's a tubed cheese. It's not a baby bell, is it? Now I'm just picturing people walking along the river with different types of cheeses. My first thought is don't litter folks. If you unwrap your cheese, do not litter.

Put it in your pocket and don't chuck the cheese in the river either because that's a waste and probably polluting. I mean, a baby bell is absolutely perfect skimming material. Have you skimmed a baby bell or even a full bell? Could you skimmed a baby bell or even a full bell? Would you skim a baby bell? When I went to Holland, I did see the midi and the maxi bells. I believe we have discussed the other bells on the podcast before, or maybe just in person and I have confused it with a recording, but I'm sure we've talked about.

Nature provides us with so many bells. Life is a source of constant wonder. It's five out of five for his bark is worse than his bike. What a high scoring round. I'm kind of annoyed at myself. Brilliant. A bit of a push over there. Primmilla cheese is a hundred years old this year. Well, that's off by now, surely. Well, that's off by now, surely. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Willow. If people want to find out more from you, read your books and so forth, what should

they do? I was going to say they can find me on Twitter. No, they can find me on X, which I still insist on calling Twitter. Also, to be fair, Twitter, terrible name, but still. Yep. So I'm on there as Willow Winsham. Also my website willowwinsham.com. And I'm also on Blue Sky and Instagram, also all as Willow Winsham. And loads of books with beautiful front covers, not to judge them. The latest of which I think is the Treasury of Folklore, Waterlands, Wooded Worlds and Starry Skies.

That's right. Yes. And I can never remember the name of it, which is why I put it written on a piece of paper in front of me. Because, well, even the individual books, just getting it around the right way, the folklore of stars and skies, the amount of times I've referred to it as skies and stars. And even then I'm like, which way is it? Which way? I don't know. I wrote the book. Can't remember. So yeah, we haven't got a hope with that longer title. Well, thank you very much, Willie. That was really, really great. Oh, thank you for having me. It's been a lot of fun. Thank you.

So that was Willie Wincham and that was really scary. Yeah, that's a really good story. To the credit of Ruth El-Tung. Yes, with those creepy, creepy fingers, tree fingers. And Ruth means honest. Does it? I think. Alistair, what could people do if they wanted to hear more?

I would suggest join the Patreon, patreon.com forward slash lawmen pod, where there's all kinds of bonuses and goodies and you get access to a law folk discord. We're appearing in someone else's podcast live show in who knew it with Matt Stewart in Balham district of London. Yes, the 17th of November, as I think Australians pronounce it. And that'll be a lot of fun. Thank Joe for editing and thank all the people that support us via patreon.com forward slash longmenpod. Can I apologize for saying, I'm sorry, go ahead. I said, tell me more because you mentioned Greece before we started recording. And then Willow said, don't start talking about Greece. And so I had in my head,

don't talk about Greece, you'll ruin the intro. And then I accidentally said, tell me more. It was unintentional. Tell me more. Do the intro properly. I'm so sorry. Well.