Loremen Podcast - Loremen S6Ep33 - Hy-Brasil with the Map Men

Episode Date: September 18, 2025

The Loremen meet the Map Men. Yes, it's the crossover we can only assume people have been clamouring for! Jay and Mark joined us to discuss the mythical island / clerical error known (amongst other things) as Hy-Brasil. Prepare for some dodgy pronunciations and little local lore from Enfield. Watch the Map Men on YouTube and pre-order their book. And see the Loremen LIVE in London on Oct 15th. This episode was edited by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Joseph Burrows - Audio Editor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Join the LoreFolk at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠patreon.com/loremenpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ko-fi.com/loremen⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Check the sweet, sweet merch here... ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.teepublic.com/stores/loremen-podcast?ref_id=24631⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ @loremenpod ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠youtube.com/loremenpodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.instagram.com/loremenpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.facebook.com/loremenpod⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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restaurants in Canada. Welcome to Lawmen, a podcast about local legends and obscure curiosities from Days of Yore. With me, Alastair Beckett King and me James Shakeshaft. And in this episode, James, we are joined by the Map Men, probably in the top two of the X-Men category. The top being the X-Men, and then the Map Men. And then probably Law Men, it's probably the third best. Yeah, I don't think there's any other type of men around, really.

White men, right at the bottom. Sorry, guys. And in that spirit, here is a podcast with four white guys. Oh, oh, I didn't really think the intro through. Anyway, we're absolutely thrilled that the Map Men have joined us. We're huge fans of the YouTube channel, and people keep begging us to get them on the podcast. Well, we've done it.

Here it is. Hey, James, James Shakeshaft, get over here. Yes, yes, Alastair, Alistair Beckett King. I've been handed this mysterious vellum parchment. Which ones? Are you about to do... Sorry, James, before we go on with this act out, were you about to say that it can't be both vellum and made of parchment?

Were you about to correct me on the... material of the map? Yes, and I was also going to ask what vellum was. I think it's goat skin. I was also going to mention a rat you're a vegan. This is not a vegan message. Well, James, you've ruined the whole act out. I'm so sorry. But with pedantry, so I respect that. It was going to be a map, and it was going to be a really fun way of introducing our guests for this episode. But forget about all that. And please welcome Mark and Jay, aka the map men. Hello, thank you very much. Off of YouTube's Mapmen. I'm like, I'm saying that correctly. I think I mispronounced YouTube somehow. YouTube.

Sounded like an insult. Maybe we've been pronouncing it wrong all these years and maybe the emphasis is meant to go on the tube. YouTube. YouTube. Yeah. YouTube. I think that's how Matt Berry would say it. YouTube's Mapman. From YouTube's Mapmen. Hello. Well, anyway, thank you very, however it's pronounced, we're very grateful to be here. Thank you for having us on the show. We've wanted you on the show for ages. And I know our listeners have because they tell us in the discord. And by sheer coincidence, you guys got a book out? Oh, we do, and it is a sheer coincidence. Are we allowed, since we're on your podcast, are we allowed to mention the name of the book and where you can buy it from various good bookshops and so on? I think legally you can. This isn't the BBC. It would be good

if you had a rule where you couldn't, though, would me? And also, the people only found out at this point. Yeah, yeah, we went until the recording has started and then we say, no, you can't plug your book? You actually can't do that, everything but the title. So we can do plugs at the end, but do you want to tell us something about your book? Jay, can you remember the title? Yes, our book is called This Way Up When Maps Go Wrong, Open Brackets, and Why It Matters, Close Brackets. It's basically, if you've ever seen Map Men on the internet, it's the book equivalent of Map Men. It's like a video with a very, very low frame rate, depending on how fast you read.

He's got chapters all about the best stories that we could find about maps that went wrong. And that means anything from borders put in the wrong place with hilarious consequences or a very ill-advised shortcut with hilarious consequences. Or one time when a map was used for a surrealist French movement in the 1950, or with suitably hilarious consequences, and there's some maps in there too. So if you like maps and you like slightly silly things and you like the odd hilarious consequence, then please do buy our book. And if nothing else, it's a nice shade of orange.

So it'll look nice on your bookshelf if you're missing the orange. What I like about you two as a double act is on your Wikipedia page, it says that you met at the Edinburgh Festival Fringe. And then there's a little note saying that that's not a reliable source. And the source for it is you, Jay, saying that that's the case. And Wikipedia is like, I just don't trust this guy. Now, hang on, Jay, it's very unreliable on our origin story. Well, thank you for coming on this show.

What we've actually managed to do is cut out the middleman being YouTube because I'm regularly sent your video on how to pronounce place names because of my terrible pronunciations of place names. So thank you very much. Please feel free to correct as we go. And if you do have any back corrections to do, please, please take that way. Possibly a flash forward to some of the place names that are going to come up in this episode. But before we leap into the bit of law that you boys, or indeed men, boys two men have brought,

Jay, you're from Enfield, is that right? I live in Enfield now, but I'm new to Enfield, and I'm sort of learning all of the stories that people who grew up here have always known, and I'm learning them one at a time through Wikipedia. Well, my law senses tell me that James Shakeshaft might have some little pieces of, some little nuggets of law, Some little lawlets to drop I do, I do From the excellent friend of the show Walking Haunted London

By Richard Jones 25 original walks Exploring London's ghostly past They're not covers All killer walk No filler walk I mean as anyone going on a walk knows the best thing that you need

And get for a walk Oh look at that I must say I do appreciate, especially when we're looking at these sort of old folklory books, the ones, the two things I'm after, apart from like good content and stories and stuff, is an index and a map because then you can kind of work out if it's near where you've heard of because you've invariably never heard of any of the places. But this one is Enfield, so hopefully, Jay, you will have heard of some of these places.

Oh, do you mean there's more than one ghost story in Enfield? I've picked the top three. But do all three of those ghost stories take place in the same house? You're thinking, I think, of the Enfield haunting house. I'm thinking of the famous The Enfield Haunting haunting. Oh, that's a little bit mainstream. Oh, nice. We are more about sort of little hauntings that you probably don't know anything about.

They haven't gone mainstream yet. They're kind of underground. And we also did the Enfield Haunting already. It's been done, as it were, to death. And beyond. We, well, I've got one from a house. The Old House at the Top of Oak Avenue? Not the old house at the top of Oak Avenue.

Yeah, the old one. That is in Enfield. Where's the old house? It's just off the ridgeway, near Gordon Hill Station. That's where Jay drops me. Even I know this. I'm in now. Mark's involved.

You've brought Mark into it, James. Well done. Excellent. Well, on the 5th of April 1873, as I'm sure we all remember, Mr. Jay Wessefield, a solicitor, came to dine with two. Spinster sisters who lived in an old house at the top of Oak Hill. Two spinsters. Double Spinths.

How many spinsters there, two? Greedy for spinsters. Yeah. I was going to say he's going to be soliciting, but that sounds, given the context, wrong. Could you sing that to the tune of the different song, Jay? You probably could, couldn't you? So he's welcomed in and shown to a bedroom so he can change for dinner, and he takes off his jacket, and he hears a noise.

a strange noise, a peculiar, trembling sigh. Is it a third spinster? That sounded immediately behind him. I may perhaps trying to say that soliciting a spinster sister. And it just comes out. But he thought it was nothing more than the wind in the chimney. So he continues dressing and then he hears it again, but this time louder. And from then on, he became aware of this presence that followed him all around the room

and emitted this tormenting sound every few minutes. So he dressed as quickly as he could, went down, joined the sisters at the dinner table. For the whole dinner, he's hearing this. Is that how it's written in Richard James's book? It's spelt. I'm just wondering how you're getting that interpretation, James. It's phonetic. I like the way you're sort of doing a scale there.

Well, maybe it's warming up. Yeah, the ghost. He leaves and the presence stays in the house. it doesn't follow him to presumably Gordon Hill station. Just quick sidebar. Is there a Gordon Hill? Or is there a hill that's called Gordon? There is a road called Gordon Hill.

It's not a hill, it's a road. And then there's a station also called Gordon Hill, which is a station not a road. But none of them are hills. Sorry, it's a, it's a road not a hill. There is no hill called Gordon Hill. They called a road that has nothing to do with a hill, Gordon Hill. Well, the road goes up a hill.

Well, the hill doesn't have a name, but the road that goes up the hill is called Gordon Hill. and then the station at the top of the hill is called Gordon Hill Station, which is not a hill. Are you sure the hill the road goes on? This is no, this is too much. Let's carry on. If you look at the map of Gordon Hill, it'll show you Gordon Hill the station and Gordon Hill the road, but the hill that Gordon Hill, the road and the station are on doesn't have a name.

So I assume that the hill has no name and the road's called Gordon Hill and the station's called Gordon Hill Station. I suppose it might be possible to draw a different inference from that, but who am I to contradict one of the math name? Jay only looks at road atlaces as well. So he's working off a road atlas in the first place. It's quite clear. What we need is a map that predates Gordon Hill the station and Gordon Hill the road, just in case Gordon Hill the Hill, which predates the station and the road, was called Gordon Hill.

I think Gordon's a lovely name for a hill. I think what you're conjecting is a map of Gordon's. It just kind of is sort of live updates where any Gordon's are. And if they're a hill, doesn't really need to update very much because they tend to be quite, you know. When we got a teddy bear for our son, who's now three, were trying to decide what name to give him. And my wife came up with, why don't we do like Paddington and come up with a name from a station?

And then straight away we decided, Gordon, like Gordon Hill, that's the perfect name for a little teddy bear. It's quite nice and cuddly that name, isn't it? Anyway, we're going down so many rabbit holes of sidebars now. Yes. So back to it. He saw the two spinsters again, told them about the... And unsurprisingly, they laughed.

Was that the sound of their laughter? Basically, many videos. visitors had felt and heard the ghostly resident, though no one knew who it was or what it was or even why he had chosen to take it up its ghostly occupancy of that particular room at the old house at the top of Oak Avenue. And some say that to this day, if you listen very carefully in the old house, you can hear the next train to arrive at Platform 2 is the 1347. Is that Gordon himself? That voice sounds like a Gordon, doesn't it? It's very Gordon, eh? Gordon coded. And one more little brief one.

So, first of all, now this is going to have been no surprise to you. Enfield Chase, Alistair, is this a surprise to you? Enfield Chase is spelled C-H-A-C-E. Oh, I've not seen that spelling before. Chase is a stretch of land, right? I can nerderly point you to two facts. First of all, I can tell you why it's spelled with a C-R-N-S. because it comes, I'll tell you why, because it used to be King Henry VIII's hunting ground

and hunt in France's shus, which is why it became Chase. Although come to think of it, that should be spelt with an S. But yeah, that's technically etymologically why. That's fact number one. Are we sure it wasn't his chaise? Is it possible that it was a small... Very large chair. Ouch.

Like a large chaise long for Henry VIII. So I've just remembered another fact that's probably the nerdiest fact ever, which is the Enfield Chase with an S is how it's spelled most of the time when it's the name of the area and the name of the roads that go through it and the station and so on. Enfield Chase with a C is used in only two instances, well, three now instances that I'm aware of. One of them is a local school. The other one is what they were going to call the borough of Enfield in 1965, but decided against it because nobody could spell Chase with a C. And number three is that book that you just showed me just now.

Ooh. Walking Haunted London. Wonking. Camlet Mote. I know where that is, but I don't know what the ghost story. attached to it is. At the time of writing of this book, which is the 2001. Really? The cover had had very strong 1986 vibes. So it's a wooded area and it had previously been owned by the Demanderville family. Absolutely not sure that's how that's pronounced. And one member of the

family had found themselves under suspicion of treason. No time for a retake, James. Stick with treason. Tresion. One member of the family found himself under the suspicion of treason. So He put his treasure in a box, lowered it into a deep well, and hid the well with branches and stuff. He himself hid in the branches of a great oak to basically just keep an eye on the treasure that he'd hidden. And then it says here one day,

so this happened over multiple days he was up in the street because one of the days he was up there, he fell out and fell on his head and died. And now his ghost haunts the area looking out of people who are getting near his well. And if anyone tries to pull the treasure out, which apparently is pull-outable, it will get almost up to the top

and then the chain will snap and it will fall back down. Oh, treasonous treasure. That's very good. A treasonous treasure. I did have a little tale about a Bobby Bird who was going to the Boys Brigade on his bike,

but I've lost my pop shoes. Instead we have to stick with a sinister story of sister soliciting siblings. Is Enfield a particularly haunted spot of London? I think comparative, I don't think like density, it doesn't appear to be. But there seems to be like if you look at the map, there's a run along the top where there's a whole bunch of ghosts. Yes. Ah, the Enfield oblong.

For the listener, the ghosts are on this map indicated by little pictures of capes with eyes. I wonder if high density of ghost stories implies that there's not much else to talk about in this area. Because Enfield, and I've looked into this, because I'd like to know more about where I've now settled. and it's not really very famous for much. As far as I know, Enfield is famous as the birthplace of Chaz and Dave. They used to be a gun factory. I once saw there was this map that showed each most famous person from each London borough. And for Enfield, they chose Amy Winehouse because she's from Southgate.

But the thing about Southgate is, if you're an Enfield nerd, Southgate straddles the Enfield Barnett border. And Amy Winehouse was born on the wrong side. So there is no one famous from Enfield except either Chas or Dave from Chaz and Dave. or the ghost from the Enfield haunting. With Amy Wynes having such good hair, it just seems right that she should be from Barnet and not Enfield,

because it's just slightly funnier. Oh, that's good. A high Barnett, no less. Oh, hi, Barnett. Speaking of places with High in their name, that's quite a good link, but we may not keep the rest of it in, so I'm going to start again.

So if we might travel west, quite a long way west, from Enfield and maybe up a little bit, we are going beyond the M25. Mark and Jay, we said, Do you know any good law that relates to maps? And you came along with something quite interesting. Yeah, well, the thing that we're most interested in probably in maps in general is,

well, actually, linking back to the book title, as it suggests, it's when maps go a bit wrong. You know, because they're just representations of the earth, the fun thing to do is just to stare and stare and start until you go, oh, that's changed, oh, that's different. Oh, that looks like it's in slightly the wrong place or, you know, all that. So one of the kind of richest phenomenons and something we did an episode about a year or two ago

is something called Phantom Islands. Oh. And yes, indeed. Oh. Which are... The island of the spinsters. I was just trying to evoke the Isle of Spinster. That probably is one.

It does sound like an island, the Isle of Spinster. Yes. Somebody should Google that while we. But, yeah, they're generally quite small little dots on the world map, although one or two of them are a little bit bigger. And the thing is they come for all sorts of different reasons. They crop up for different reasons. I mean, sometimes they are simply a product of an explorer or, you know, someone who set out

on a boat for whatever reason, labeling an island because they think they are somewhere where they're not. So there was quite a famous one called Peep's Island, which the, I can't remember the name of the explorer who founded it, but basically sort of drew lots of pictures of it and all the rest of it. And it was somewhere sort of up in the Atlantic or towards the Americas. But it turned out in the end, eventually it was disproven. It was figured out that this was the Falklands, and they had already been found.

But he just thought he was miles north of the Falklands. But for a long time, Peeps Island remained on maps because it was very hard to disprove these phantom islands. In the days where you obviously didn't have satellite technology and you just had people coming back with reports about their location and what they had seen, if that then got drawn onto a map and it got reprinted and republished, it took quite long time for somebody to go there and not see it, for sure, because they might have been wrong. about where they were. So Mattmakers would need a lot of notseeings of it before they would

get the message and get rid of it. But the one that we brought today was not a case of somebody just thinking they were in the wrong place or whatever it might be. Some of them were first of sometimes sailors, sorry, hallucinated these islands as well. This one is something that kind of sits in a really interesting grey zone between folklore and cartography and the age of discovery. and it's sort of, sometimes this one's quite hard to grasp how it actually came into existence and why, because there's so many stories associated with it, as is obviously the case with law. But it's called High Brazil, or sometimes just called Brazil. And Brazil is sometimes spelt with a Z, like the country Brazil, but more commonly it's spelt with an S-Brasil, and the high is spelled H-Y.

I was going to say, our less geographically well-versed listeners might recognize Brazil from the country, Brazil. But that's not what you're talking about, right? Well, the thing is, the two Brazils have got rather a lot in common, because they are both in the Atlantic and they are both off the west coast of Ireland, and they're both spelt sometimes BRA Z-I-L, sometimes B-R-A-S-I-L. I'm not sure many people would describe Brazil as off the west coast of Ireland. So, if anyone went, where's Brazil? It's off the west coast of Ireland. It's many things. So Brazil is, you know, it's off the west coast of Ireland.

It's outside the N-25. To the extent everything is off the west coast of Ireland, including England, if you keep going. It's also, yeah, it's also off the east coast of Ireland then by that. Exactly. It's off Ireland. It's not Ireland. Crucially, Brazil is not Ireland. And that's the only thing we can say for sure. And you can put that on Wikipedia if you want. That's a good source. Sorry, Jay. Yeah. So, and then, but yeah, the Brazil and High Brazil, they have, the names have totally different etymologies as well. So there really is no connection between them. It's not like one ended up being sort of named after the other or anything.

But, yeah, High Brazil is like... It's actually possible that it's not even meant. to be pronounced Brazil, because if you'd never heard the word before, and you knew that it came from Irish folklore, you'd probably pronounce it Brazil, with the emphasis on the brother. Yeah, a brisal I've seen in my research. I've also found people claiming both that Brazil is named after, you know, that high Brazil, the Irish island, is named after Brazil, the country, and the other way around that when they arrived in Brazil, the country, they thought, oh, it's that famous Irish island. I thought we would have got to it a bit sooner.

This must be Brazil. I don't think either of those things are true. Well, the thing that I'd heard for the etymology of Brazil, as in the real Brazil, the country Brazil, is that it's named after the Brazil nut and that it's that way around. I think that's the most commonly accepted one anyway. And High Brazil, Brazil, I think, is a sort of Gaelic etymology. Isle of the Blessed. I don't think anybody knows exactly when it started where it comes from. It's probably a pre-Christian thing.

but where the myth of High Brazil comes up is that ends up, sorry, is that it's a wandering island because it gets spotted by Irish people down in from off the coast of County Cork all the way up to Northern Ireland, even round onto the sort of northeast coast at Antrim. Everyone concludes that this wandering island, that this island must wander.

That's the only explanation for why different people are seeing it in different places. And also the other part of the myth that becomes quite established is that it only appears every seven years and is the rest of the time shrouded in mist. So that's the sort of origin of it. And I think there's some other stuff, some ornate stuff around it as well.

Like the initial myth is that it was on gold pillars and it's somewhere where you can't get ill and it's a kind of paradise and all this. But then all this kind of very obviously folklore stuff starts to get muddled into the age of reason and discovery where things start to become a bit more empirical. And people go looking for it. like explorers go looking for it and come back saying they've found it.

And then it starts to become a bit more confusing the story. Because it's like, well, hang on. Was this obviously law? Or are these people actually finding some land and now that land has disappeared and we're not sure what they were actually finding? Was it a little rocky outcrop or something? Or were they making it up? And so High Brazil is full of conjection.

It's kind of really interesting. We did an episode about Raven Sarod, which is an island that did come into existence and then did wash away. sandbank off East Yorkshire. So islands do sort of come and go and volcanic islands appear. So it seems possible. You can see why people thought maybe there could be something where there hadn't been something before. I think we've also done an episode about an island that turned out just to be a big whale. That's Ayahuascus. Is it from the voyage of St. Brendan? Oh, the voyage of St. Brendan. So I think, so it's because St. Brandon goes,

St. Brandon goes to High Brazil at one point. If he's the sixth century monk, I think, he claims to go, there's a lot of monks who go there. And I think the monks who come back saying they've been there, I'm less inclined to bleed. I'm sorry, that, you know, if I'm casting aspersions on the, I'm not casting aspersion on the religion. I think monks, they're even less reliable than Jay Foreman, in my opinion. They come back and they, they totally are embedded with the mythology. Every time they come back, they say, and the island sank back into the sea and the mist surrounded it as I was leaving, so you won't be able to find it. That happens again and again. Yes, I think St. Brandon went there with some folks. I've got a couple more in

encounters, first-hand encounters, if you'd like to hear them. Well, it's Captain John Nisbet's encounter. Nisbet. This comes from Thomas Johnson Westrop, Tommy Johnson, Westrop, who wrote a, well, gave a presentation to the Royal Irish Academy. And then even the name Royal Irish Academy should give you a sense of the date of this presentation, which was 1912. I can't imagine the Academy continued being royal for too long after that. He gave a presentation called Brazil and the legendary islands, which was then published. And Westrop was, an amateur archaeologist and folklore enthusiast. Among other things, he saw the island himself as a child.

Or the illusion of the island, he wrote, I myself have seen the illusion some three times in my boyhood and even made a rough-coloured sketch after the last event in the summer of 1872, which as far as I can tell has been lost. Nobody seems to know where that drawing is, unfortunately. It was a clear evening with a fine golden sunset when just as the sun went down, a dark island suddenly appeared far out. to see, but not on the horizon. It had two hills, one wooded, between these from a low plane

rose towers and curls of smoke. My mother, brother, Ralph Hugh Westrup, presumably that is a list of people and not the same person. I'm confused as I'm reading it. My mother and brother, Ralph, and several friends saw it at the same time. One person cried that he could see New York, which I guess is how they interpreted it, knowing that that was what, it was America, that was New York, we normally think of it as being off the west coast of Ireland, James. Good point. I thought it was just north of Brazil. Could it be that they had actually sailed very, very far out indeed, and they just were looking at New York? Well, I think in this case, he was standing on the coast. I think they were standing inland. In his piece, he describes the story of lots of people who actually went there. So Captain Nisbet, Captain John Nisbitt.

Which is the New Zealand pronunciation of Nesbitt. Possibly, possibly. He says he said from Killy Beggs for France. Is Killy Beggs? Is that your nickname version of the place, or is that the real name? That is his actual name, Killy Beggs. Spilly bags. Nice, I like it. He was going to France in 1674, and I'm going to read from Westrop's account, after a clear frosty night, they ran into a fog and high sea near an unknown island. The mate with eight persons landed. Now, that tells you that this is the next generation and not the original series.

Otherwise, the captain would have gone. Thank you, James. No. On landing, they passed a wood and found cattle, sheep, and horses with black rabbits. They reached a strong castle and knocked and called in vain. They returned to the shore and lit a fire. the night being cold. A hideous noise ensued, and they fled to the boat. The next day, an old Scottish gentleman and servants appeared on the shore and told the captain, when taken on board,

that the land was, O Brazil, as it is spelled in this edition. How are you spelling that? That's B-R-A-Z-I-L-E. O-Brasail, which makes us sound a bit more Welsh, like, oh, Brazil, oh, oh, oh, Brazil. He also said that he and his men were long imprisoned in the castle by the malicious diabolical art of a great necromancer, which is spelt in a archaic and vaguely racist-looking way. Oh. The castle had fallen when the fire was lit. The island was 60 miles long by 30 miles wide and full of,

I nearly read Furries, it's actually furies. Okay. The rescued men were brought back to Killie Beggs, and by their ancient clothes, money and old-fashioned talk persuaded many of their truth. So he's actually been there. Mark, you're telling me this place is fictional, but take that up with a 17th century captain.

This is totally it. Because Nesbitt is one of the really interesting ones. We really like this period in cartography history, the kind of the 1600s where you've got this history of maps that were pretty bad and very speculative and weren't using a lot of maths to make them. And obviously, a lot of the world hadn't been explored and all the rest of it. And so you get that Herbie Dragons thing and you get the monsters at the edge. And I, you know, that's fine. That's sort of interesting. But, you know, sometimes I find those very fantastical maps just sort of, I can't really get on board with them because it's like, well, this is just sort of too ridiculous for me. But then when you get some sense coming into the map, but you clearly have people, mapmakers and explorers who are very imbued with the old ways. And they are just confused about what is real and what isn't. They're sort of starting to get a grasp on what is rational science and empirical. But they, you know, they, you know, they,

They still completely believe in a lot of the superstitious stuff and they've grown up with it or wherever it might be and it's on the maps. And they're not quite sure where the line is. And Hybrasil falls into that, I think. You sort of, people are like, it does sound like folklore. So is this the sort of thing we should be ignoring? But wait, I'm going to go and discover it and see it for myself.

And then, yes, it is real. And then it's on maps all the way up into the 1800s solidly, despite its very, very well-documented, very obviously myth foundation. That's what stunned to me that there are 19th century maps where people are going, well, better just err on the side of it's there, and they're popping it on. All the maps I've seen so far say it's there, and I haven't been there, so it must be there. That's basically what keeps happening. There's an interesting thing when it comes to the superstitions.

Yeah, obviously, when we're talking about before the 14th century, things are quite fuzzy, and Westrop's explanation for that is in part, a quote from Brunetto Latini, Dante's tutor, explaining that in the old days, we did have compasses and things. but sailors didn't really like them. It was kind of bad look to have a compass on board a ship, and sailors regarded compasses as an infernal spirit, apparently. So it was only, according to Genta Westrop, it was only around 1360 that people started using compasses on boats,

which I guess gave you a certain amount of riffing freedom in the early days of exploring. It's kind of like my uncle in Saturnav. Well, yeah, I mean, even now in 2025 or whatever year it is where you are, you know, you look at a compass spinning on its own and always knowing which way up is. And it's sorcery, isn't it? How does it know?

What else does it know? It is sinister. Also, the maps were so bad back then that if you followed the compass correctly, you would end up in the wrong place. I mean, the tech was too good for the rest of the tech. Essentially, it didn't sink.

You also have to remember that throughout most of history, like we take it for granted now that on pretty much all maps today, North is up. But for most civilizations and throughout most of civilization, on most historical maps, up is east. So the compass would have got you lost and sent you to 25 degrees the wrong way.

Not 25 degrees, what's the number of... 90 degrees the wrong way. Jane, make sure to leave that mistake in. Map man caught out in degree fraud. Yeah, actually, I'm sort of stealing it because we had this fact in a video of us because compasses came from China first, but the Chinese name for a compass

is a south-pointing stone, which I always thought was really interesting, because they took... Oh! You've got a 50-50 choice up, And they decided they pointed south rather than north, which is great. I suppose as well, the sun goes around. Yeah.

Yeah, their north home is around. The sun goes round that way, isn't it? Yeah, I think south. Yeah, south was probably the second most cardinal direction, if you like, after East in the old days. East was where it rose. That was sort of the most important thing a lot of the time. South was where it stayed. Oh, yeah, that makes sense.

And North was generally seen as this sort of bottom priority direction for a long time. Yeah. And there's no sort of reflection of that in. modern British politics either, which is really cool. Satire, they're biting. That's really good. That was really good, James. Wow.

Should we just end it there? I'll stop the recording. I hope politics hasn't got any better so that by the time this comes out, that will still be relevant. I came across a really folklory origin story for High Brazil as well. I caught me where I read it.

So sorry, I wish I could, I've noticed you both sourcing things very well. I can't source this, so, you know, source, J. Farmer. And better source is needed. So there's this story about a sort of like, yeah, an old, old folklore myth about a very, very horrible king on the island of high Brazil. He lived on the island of high Brazil, and he liked beheading his wives. And he gets a new wife. By this time, he's got a bit of a reputation.

She's quite suspicious of marrying him. Doesn't particularly want to do it. But she goes to an enchanter first, talks to the enchanter, and says, look, marrying this guy, I think, can I have a little bit of power to help me out if things get sticky? the enchanter gives her some power and then she marries him and she's all quite good for a while and then one day she comes in in the morning

and says good morning my king and he absolutely flips and he says that's it I'm beheading you and she freezes him and she calls the enchanter into the room who she has had dealings with previously

and the enchanter comes to her side and curses the island and saying that it will move up and down the coast and only appear once every seven years as a result. So he is frozen on this island destined only to appear once every seven years. So that's an origin story for the seven years, belief.

Yes, exactly. So that must be retrofitted, right? So what you've got is you've got the people seeing this island at various times and various places up and down the country. And then that sort of somehow coalesces into it. Well, it must be an itinerant island that is moving around the coast of Ireland somewhere

and only appears every once in a while. And then they go, well, once that has been established, then you can make that story. Yeah, Westrop's, he attributes the seven years thing to the people of Aaron specifically. Oh, yes, I heard that, yeah. There was a belief that these islands existed in a seemingly in a factual sort of way. And then, as you say, Christianity seems to come along. And so the magical islands get sort of recast as kind of heaven in some way, I think.

Yeah. So in a dictionary of Irish mythology by Peter Beresford Ellis, which does make the inaccurate claim that Brazil is named after. A high Brazil is named after Brazil. Actual Brazil. gives the synonyms for the other world or heaven, which I'm going to try to say, and I'm no doubt going to mispronance really badly. But they are, and some of them will be familiar, like Tier Nanog, the land of youth. Tier Tanigiri, the land of promise.

Tier na saura, land of summer. Mahmell, plain of happiness. Tier nambeo, land of a living. Mach de show, plain of the two mists. Tier foe-toon, land under the wave. Hi, Brazil. he says Breezel's island

that is Breissel king of the world the high king of the world and High Falga Falga's island and Dunskaith Fortress of Shadows Ooh Dunscape

That's nice But yeah So they're sort of moving Between being a real place And being a representation of heaven But bearing in mind They probably are Clouds

There's something quite Interesting about the fact That they start as islands And then sort of turn into heaven When in the culture I grew up in Clouds is also heaven It's in a completely different way, heaven is clouds and clouds is heaven. And in this case, we've got this magical island you can go to where people are forever young or furries or whatever.

Most of the time. But it's just, yeah, it's missed, it's clouds. It's just sometimes they look like an island on the horizon. I have one more case of a guy who actually went there, though. Well, I kind of a legit goer, not a monk. Not a 7th century monk. Supposedly, yeah, not a monk. A doctor, Morrow Lee, I'm not sure how to pronounce it.

In August of 1668, one Morrow Lee, living in 1684, was in a place that I'm not going to try and pronounce, to the north of Galway Bay. He was carried off by two strangers to old Brazil for two days and then was brought back to sea point near Gawley, hoodwinked. That is... It's nice to hear the word hoodwink. It's a big wing. Literally hoodwinked. The original meaning of hoodwinked. And what they'd done was they'd given him basically a medical textbook, a guide to being a brilliant doctor, which allowed him to... The rule was he wasn't allowed to open it for seven years, but after that, it allowed him to be a successful doctor. And that book exists, apparently. It is now, to this

day, in 1912, the present, in the library at the Royal Irish Academy. It's a vellum book, which is goats, James, written in Irish and Latin. The date 1434 is on page 76, and the name P. Lee is written in it. So maybe that's Le, maybe Leigh became Lee. It's L-E-Y, and then it's L-E-E. Was it any good? So was it a sort of slightly lauded medical book then that he came back with? Well, I get the impression it's a little bit like the Red Book of Appin, which listeners to the podcast might remember, which was a diabolical magic book that told you how to breed cows really well. It was probably actually just a real guidebook that was actually a medical book that was made some, you know, a particularly good doctor had this book and the myth that it was

given to him on a magical island sort of gets built up around that because it's actually just a book, which I guess to an ordinary person in the olden days was pretty impressive. Yes. Gosh, that's interesting, isn't it? And having to wait seven years, that thing about making him wait seven years to be able to, they've given him the power to cure people, but you have to wait seven years to be able to use it. You're going to have to wait seven years.

Yeah, it's deferred gratification. It's like waiting for prescription and drugs to become available in the NHS. It's like, we have the technology. Isn't that about the time it takes to trade to be a doctor, though, seven years? That is a good point. He might have just been reading it. Also, was he allowed to look at the book during the seven years between which he acquired it and was allowed to open it?

Because what if somebody was taking seven years to write it? Just slipping in and adding a little bit more. I think James has got it spot on. I think he went on a two-day bender, came back, said he was hoodwinked, realized he needed to cover stories. Then said, I've got a book. I'll show it to you in seven years. Went to medical school, came back.

And the whole thing was tied up. I mean, that would, in one fell swoop, explain everything, including High Brazil being either there or. or not there. Well, that's the thing. If we're going by his story, all we know is that he got taken by boat somewhere. He can't tell you where it is because he was hoodwinked. How does that show you where Hyberzil is or isn't? And I trust this guy because he's a doctor, but I don't trust his geography skills. He's now a doctor. But he wasn't a doctor when it happened. So can you trust him then? That's a good point. He's not a reliable source. But he becomes a reliable, yeah.

But the most recent map that contains Hyberzile would be from what year? Because it's only mean, it won't appear on any maps now. And that's not to say that modern maps don't still contain a lot of islands that aren't there. Like there was one, we found one doing research when we did a video about Phantom Islands, that the most recently vanished Phantom Island didn't disappear from Google Maps until 2012.

This was an island in New Caledonia, middle of nowhere. Sandy Island. Sandy Island, it was called. So Captain Cook had first seen it. But then I think it was kind of a strange quirk of Google Maps, wasn't it? Because it didn't quite feature as an island. It featured as a weird black space.

because they were using some data that featured Sandy Island, but then when they put their satellite imagery over the top of it, there wasn't an island there. And so it ended up being a sort of black blob, didn't it? Yeah, because the fascinating thing is, you would have thought, given that nowadays, everyone's got their own satellite whizzing around, the way you make maps is just by stitching photos of the real Earth together,

and there you have an accurate map. That's actually not how it works. It's the other way around. You take the map data that can be hundreds of years old if you trace it far enough back. And then you paste all your photos on top, carefully positioning this bits land, this bit C. And that's why, if you look on Google Earth now, the sea, most of it is just a plain blue blob, because that's cheaper and easier than having loads and loads of photos of the sea.

Except... Yeah, you've got to line up all the waves. So that could be more Ireland. That's a such a continuity issue. Genuinely, there could be. But in the case of so-called Sandy Island, what happened was Google had the data that said, over here, don't use blue, use actual satellite images because they're supposed to... to be land here. And so what you saw, until they got rid of it, like in just 2012, was

it looked like a big black smudge. But of course, what you're actually seeing is an island of genuine photo of empty ocean surrounded by fakery. So it's actually an inverted Phantom Island. They're showing a little blob of reel when they're supposed to be showing fake. So I think with high Brazil, I think it, I think, I can't remember the last day. It's definitely around the 1800s, 1865. But, but there was definitely a... That's living memory for someone in living memory. There was a cartographer in the 1700s, definitely. who sort of realized and pieced it all together that this, you know, there were people, there were honest explorers who went looking for it and didn't find it and came back

and said, I really don't think it's there, right? But it was a very, very ingrained myth. So it was hard to eradicate the idea of it. Such as the nature of storytelling, we don't remember their names or have any interesting stories about them because there was nothing there. We only remember the guys who said they have been there or did see it. Yeah, I mean, I feel like I should at least remember the name of the mapmaker who said this, but there we go. He, he, he, in the 1700s, he said, I don't think it's there. But it continues to stay on a lot of different maps for about 150 years. And it often looks the same as is the way when you copy these things. I think it was a little blob with a river running right

through the middle of it, wasn't it? It's very beautiful from the maps I've seen. Well, it's paradise. Absolutely paradise. Well, thank you for bringing us that fine and mysterious tales of the island of high Brazil. James, are you ready to pass judgment on this island off the coast of the island of Ireland? Absolutely. All right. I've never been more ready. In that case, James, our first category is naming. Ah, yes. So... It's got a lot of names.

It's got a lot of names. It's got one name that is also a name of somewhere else. It sounds like it. But a lot of things sound like a lot of things, don't they? But there is a potential argument that the big famous Brazil is named after the Little Faked Brazil. So if indeed they are the same name, it's a very influential name indeed. That's got to score highly. That is true.

It's Brazil country names. And surely Alistair's at this point. for literally just reading out a load of Irish names really badly for ages. Hey, I don't know if it was really bad. We don't know. No, I don't know that either, actually. It might be perfect.

We don't know until we read the comments. I mean, would it have been better if I'd put on a fiddledy-D Irish accent and said all of that? What, sorry? I don't know, and I'm not going to repeat it in case of offence. We did all just shout-outs, obviously,

to Gordon Hill. You did have Camlet Mote as well from me. I just want to make moments, which is... I mean, Gordon Hill is more of a just a... just a bloke, like your dad's mate, rather than a place. Or a teddy bear. Or a teddy bear. And the old house at the top of Oak Avenue, which is very prescriptive.

It's more subjective than... Oh, I should have mentioned, James, in one of the maps from 1459, it's due west of the Dingle Peninsula. Oh, hello. What was the name of the town they went off that sounded like... Killiebags. One of the nicknames that we give anything. Killiebags. And I did like...

T.J., what was the name of the historian chap? Thomas Johnson Westrop. I think the number of amazing names that have been brought to our attention to this podcast must be noted. I think it's definitely, I think I should go for a five, but I'm going to knock it back for a four because of the doubling up of the Brazil. Because of double Brazil. Oh, all right.

Because you double-briseled. In that case... It's like a double dribble in basketball, but... Well, in that case, allow me to extend that basketball metaphor by bouncing the ball, Oh, I don't really know anything about basketball. It's not working, is it? It's not working. Go back. By chest passing to the next category, which, yes, which is supernatural.

It's a island that vanishes and reappears, James. It's got columns. It's got smoke. It's got a castle that crumbles. It moves. It moves. It moves. The island moves.

And not at tectonic speeds. at beyond tectonic speeds, think about the amount of supernatural needed to do that. If somebody were a wizard in a film or a HBO series, and they were trying to move an island, they'd have to have the most power, wouldn't they? It would have even the most, like there are other sort of supernatural things

and hauntings out there, blah, blah, blah. Okay, base level of supernatural power. If you're going to move an island, you need to have all the power. It's one of the biggest things you can do. Or a mirror the size of an island. Yeah, if you were going to David Copperfield it, it will be very tricky. Yeah, I'll give you that.

You've got, you've also, you've, don't forget, you've got the cursed naughty king. It was cursed for trying to cut off another wife's head. Yeah, I feel like they could have got the cursing in a little bit earlier on him. That would have been good. Or giving her a metal neck. Give her a metal neck. Christ. So, I'm going to give that.

I think that is also going to be a four. I personally would have liked a couple more ghosts on the other. Loads of furies wasn't enough. But furies, I know I said furies when I was reading it, but furies are spirits, aren't they? I can't imagine what it is. Oh. Okay.

All right. Our next category, James, is scale. Yes. Because, I mean, that is one of the key things for maps. You've got to have one. Scale on the key, yeah. If you're pardon the pun. I mean, ironically, most of the maps are talking about.

didn't have a good scale. But the scale of this thing, again, it's a landmass. And again, lest we forget, we're talking here about the scale of Brazil, which is the fifth largest country in the entire world. Right, that is a big scale. I mean, this island could have just been really big, and that's why they thought it was in lots of different places before it disappeared. I think we had the Lake of Disappointment, which is a real scale.

Smaller scale than perhaps you might have hoped. And actually, I think it's a full five because I've remembered the ghost doing it scales earlier at the old house on Oak Avenue. Of course the ghost is doing its scales. Your own ghost impression has tipped it into a five, hasn't it? That's what's happened. Yeah, and to be honest, that's how you tend to win on these things. For the final category, before we do it, map boys, remind us of the title of your book. Up. It's called This Way Up, When Maps Go Wrong and Why It Matters, and it's available to pre-order now from all good bookshops.

Thank you. Thank you, Map lads. And in the future, it'll be able to post-order. It makes a great Christmas present for a secret Santa that you don't know very well, but you think they might like maps. That's just a great line. That's really good. In fact, that's what we were going to call it originally, and then Harper Collins said, that's a bit on the nose. Final category, James, double title, so prepare yourself. Our final category is, don't look for it. It's not there. slash not a reliable source, because we have got those in heaps.

You have brought the past and the present together in a beautiful way. Your own catchphrase, James. Don't look for it. It's not there. Well, we all know where this is heading then, don't we? A catchphrase that I originally, if listeners recalled, said wasn't a phrase and that nobody ever said that and have been roundly trounced. Then some people looked for it and it was there. I mean, this has got to be five out of five because please... You're negotiating with us in this case.

I'm going to give you a five out of five because I want to warn any listener with access to a pedalo and the west coast of Ireland. Please do not look for it. It is not there. If you peddle up, but if you do pedolo all the way to Brazil, get on the phone to Guinness because you've won. Yeah, that would be very impressive. Yes, it's not the greatest of sources. We had a lot of unreliable sources from monks to J. Jay is a Wikipedia unreliable source. I mean, that is the most unreliable...

Official, isn't it? That's five out of five. I'm sorry. Once again, Jay, I'm sorry. Well, thank you so much. Matman. Thank you very much for having us on, guys. Thank you for having us.

Thank you very much. Whoa, so much stuff. Loads of maps. Yes. Thank you very much, Mark and Jay, aka the map men. And again, apologies to Jay. Well, quite, yes.

Do check out their book, which I guess you can find out where to get it from their YouTube channel. Yeah, I think it might be available from all good bookshops. We'll pop some links in the show notes. If you want to hear more Lawmen, join us. Join us. At patreon.com forward slash Lawmenpod. Join us. For bonus episodes and access to the Discord where you can chat with like-minded law folk.

Also, if you want to see us live, we're going to be part of the cheerful, earful festival this October 2025. October the 15th. Check out the link in the show notes. That's the 15th of October in London. 2025. Brixton. Is it Brixton? No, Ballam. Balham. That does happen once.

I once listened to a Beatles-themed podcast. This is not a big surprise me talking about the Beatles. But there was a Beatles-themed podcast where they managed to bag an interview with John Lennon's sister. And she, at the very last second, said, okay, but you cannot ask me any questions about John. And they interviewed her anyway, and it was so dull. Wow. That's brilliant. Good work, John Lennon's sister.

Was the podcast named like a really obscure Beatles reference or something? It was called, well, that's the thing. She must have known, because why else would anybody want to contact her and talk about, you know, what else does she do? But that's the thing, isn't it? I think when you are that person and you spend your whole life being defined by the other people, right? and that it becomes your obsession to have your own identity and to not be talking to. But you don't see, you sort of start to ignore the fact that that is what defines you. You choose to ignore it because you can't let yourself think that.

It's like the same with the guys in Queen. You know, they think they are still. Equally as relevant as Freddie Mercury. Like literally down to the second. To the extent that they wanted their biopic about Freddie Mercury to sort of have Freddie Mercury's death be halfway through the film. Yeah, I think we're revealing it that we all listen to the rest of entertainment podcasts. Yeah, that's true.

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