Loremen Podcast - Loremen S6Ep7 - The Witch That Wasn't with Willow Winsham

Episode Date: March 13, 2025

Author Willow Winsham joins the Loreboys with a tale of a woman more witched against than witching! The infamous Ann Wagg simply could not move without being accused of witchcraft. Ironically, locals said she was casting curses that rendered them unable to move. Eventually, a lawman was called in. Will Ann Wagg face the wrath of her neighbours, or will an alleged witch win, for once? Order Willow's book The Story of Witches HERE. This episode was edited by Joseph Burrows - Audio Editor Join the LoreFolk here... patreon.com/loremenpod ko-fi.com/loremen Check the sweet, sweet merch here... https://www.teepublic.com/stores/loremen-podcast?ref_id=24631 @loremenpod youtube.com/loremenpodcast www.instagram.com/loremenpod www.facebook.com/loremenpod Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Enterprise. For lives in drive. and around the globe. We'll keep you moving forward. Enterprise. For lives in drive. Welcome to Lawmen, a podcast about local legends and obscure curiosities from days of yore. I'm James Shakespeare. And I'm Alistair Beckett King. Alistair, we've got a special Deputy Guest Law person again today. We do, don't we?

It's the author Willow Winsham. Returning to the podcast. Returning. And she has brought to us a tale of witches and specifically a witch that wasn't. What? I know, a witch that wasn't with Willow Winsham. That's so many W's. Try saying that when you're as drunk as I am.

Ha ha ha ha! That's like... sex-tuple W's or something. It's like two...internets. Yes! World- I know the World Wide Web isn't the internet, it's a way of looking at the internet. Okay, so Alistair. Yes, James. Shake shaft.

Alistair Becker-King. Yes. We've got a deputy guest law person hence my deputy guest law person whisper. That's why we're whispering behind this curtain. That's my whisper. I'm going to pull back the curtain now and reveal to you. Wait, are we behind the curtain or is she behind the curtain? Everyone's behind the curtain when a curtain's involved.

Oh, good point. Yeah. Who's to say which side of the curtain is behind? I didn't mean to blow your mind while we're still in this horse whisper mode, because it's hard to tell how blown your mind is. It's very blown. It sounds like we're blowing each other's minds whilst trying not to wake up the spinster aunt. And who is that spinster aunt? Let's go back.

No, no, that's not an acceptable introduction to a guest. Let's see who we're not trying to wake up this week. We have woken them up. Let's see what prize the listener could have won. It is. It's Willow Inchell. Hello, Willow. Well, we have woken them up. Let's see what prize the listener could have won. It is. It's Willow Windsor. Hello, Willow. Welcome, Willow. Hello. Thank you for having me back on the podcast.

And can I apologize for spinster widow ant? What did we say? I can't remember. Was, I think I was reaching for dowager aunt, but I went with weirdly spinster aunt. Although spinning is a useful skill, a way women can contribute to the local economy. Exactly, as Kylie Minogue has demonstrated. And Kylie Minogue had an evil sister as well.

So that's quite a fairy tale. Evil? I just assumed, I have no information. I just assumed Danny Minogue was evil because I heard about her second. Oh, she was in Home and Away at one point. Evil, yeah. Which is evil. Evil neighbors.

Yeah. Yes. I'm glad that's borne out my theory that Danny Monogue is evil based on no information. And because she's got the darker hair. Yeah. And Kylie's got the blonde hair. You've made me forget the fact that you were calling me a spinster, dowager, whatever, aunt. So, you know, you've glossed over that really well and moved on. So, yeah.

You're not a spinster, aunt. You are, you're an author. Which is way, that's something completely different. Yes. No spinning involved. Yes. And you've got a brand new book out, right? Yes. No spinning involved. Yes. And you've got a brand new book out, right? Yes, on the 13th of March. Excellent. I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

From Paul Bookshop. The Story of Witches. And that's a really beautiful cover. We've got a witch about to French kiss a dog. Is that? I hear they get up to all sorts of things with animals. Oh, is it a demon dog kissing, kissing the devil on the mouth, which is not the, not the worst place you can kiss the devil.

Well, no, which brings to the other point, but we won't go there yet. Are we bringing that up yet, James? Well, I was going to say that the mainstream media would have it that you shouldn't judge a book by its cover. They do say that. This is an excellent cover for an excellent book. Absolutely lovely cover. Go for it. Go for it. Fill your boots. Love the cover. We've got the amazing Katie Ponder to thank for the cover and all the illustrations in the book. And a big shout out to Katie because... Nice work, Katie. I do love the book. I keep picking the book up and going, oh, it's pretty.

I periodically pick it up and take it off the bookshelf and just go, oh, look at that. I think people underestimate the amount of time authors spend rubbing their own books. You see, that's probably one of those things that if you did a poll or asked about it, you'd find that there's probably a lot of people who do do that. I hope so. Otherwise, this just comes across as really weird and leech. Right in, if you're normal and you think that sounds weird. I have a couple of questions. First of all, you said that there was a hidden bonus on the cover.

I would like to, can we reveal what it is? You can reveal what it is. Yes. If I hold it up, Alistair, can you see a rev, can you reveal a bonus? Okay. I'm just waiting for the camera to come into focus. Okay, so I can see a cat sort of marching with its, with its paw out and its tail up. Is there a, I can't work it out. Is it some kind? Warmer, warmer. You're getting warmer. So I feel like it's, it's quite an angular shape and I,

I feel like something is encoded in there. Is mine any clearer? Hang on. Oh, I can't even, where am I holding it? I feel like my child trying to show people things. Is that clearer? Oh, that's much clearer. Yeah, that's great. Give it a little glance around the tail area. Around the tail. It's got a bumhole. It has, the cat has a bumhole. It's so, so subtle. Very tastefully done. Yeah. Cats are the kings and queens of strutting into your space and going, Hey,

here's my snowflake when you're least expecting it. And also obviously with the whole witches and, you know, kissing the devil on the backside and all the rest of it, it's all very topical. And sometimes a dog on the mouth based on what I've seen recently, which will be awful because dogs don't really have lips. They can't really pucker, can they? Oh no. I mean, I'm not saying that's the worst part about kissing a dog.

No, but that opens up a whole new set of things to think about in the middle of the night that probably wouldn't have considered. So thank you. Not many animals have lips. Now I come to think of it. Thank you for coming back, Willow. It is lovely to have you back on the podcast. And you're going to talk to us about witches today, I

believe. I am, yes. My second question from earlier, my two questions, I was reading your book and I realized there's a word or a name that I've never said out loud. So therefore I don't know if I'm saying out loud. It's a Greek goddess called Hecate or He-kate or as a third option that I can't even conceive of. You're having the exact same problem I have with literally half the words I write, because there's always that dread that you're going to have to then pronounce it in front of people. This one I did check and to the best of my knowledge, it is hekate. I mean, don't quote me

on that, but that is my, as far as I know, that is the pronunciation. I find in my experience, if you want to pronounce a Greek word accurately, you just say it in what sort of like half a Mexican accent and it usually comes out fine. I don't, because usually they don't pronounce the H like actual Greek people. When, if it begins with an H like Hellenic or what, you know, those sort of words, they don't say the H like we do, but then there's, so there's a correct English pronunciation of the Greek word. And then there's the Greek pronunciation, which is how Greek people say it.

And we don't care about that. I, I've got a fear, Alastair. Now my dad, Jimmy Shakespeare, East End gangster from London, did spend a lot of time in Greece and was famously a very tanned man. I think you might have just asked him how to say a word and he's because of being a cockney has dropped that H. I think if you say it, whatever you say, as long as you say it with confidence, then people just assume you're saying it right. I did a talk two weeks ago, there were words where I said them and they left my mouth and my brain went, what, what, what was that? What did you want? I said that

word in your head a gazillion times, you have never read it, the way it just came out of your mouth and I just carried on. I was like, yes, that's exactly, I think it was assizes or assizes, I don't know, you know, the courts. Oh, that's a word we would never get wrong. Shame on you. We have never pronounced it correctly at any point on this podcast. Someone corrects us every time and we go back to saying it the wrong way every single time. If we go for the Bowie influence, which is inaccurate for once. Aziz's. Aziz's. Aziz's. Aziz's. Yeah, but you say about the saying it confidently, I confidently for probably a decade, used the word hyper bowl, which sounds like one up from the Super Bowl.

Yeah, it sounds like a really good birthday for 12 year olds. We're going to the hyper bowl. Yeah, you get really big cartons of pop. Yeah. Yes. We ordered the squash option. Of course we go into the hyperbowl or it's like a little aside when you go on perhaps a booze cruise to France. Like when you go to the hypermarché, it's just next to the hypermarché is the hyperbowl.

Oh yeah. You have to, you have to compete in that in order to win cheap wine. Willow, we did not bring you here to discuss possible etymologies for a word we made up called Hyper Bowl. We brought you here to talk about witches. Actually quite excited about this one. It's a local story to me and it is actually based on true events, not like some of the tales told by our previous dear frenemy, good old Ruth's tongue. This one... El Tongue. Ruth La Tongue, you sly devil. Yeah. So it's not one of her tales. It's about one of my favourite witches and really quite

close to my heart because it takes place really close to where I live and this never happens with anything ever. All the interesting stuff is always, you know, miles away. I'm now going off on one, but finding this, which was a bit like the surprise I had this week when I discovered that this really niche Swedish rock band that I'm into at the moment, actually playing in Nottingham and they're on tour and I've looked and they were in, this year they're going to be in Hollywood. Hollywood, California. They're going to be in Milan and they're also in Saltbox Sports Bar and Kitchen in Nottingham. Yes. That's why when you go into hotels, they have a clock, don't they? For New York, Paris and then Nottingham.

Yes. Saltbox. And then the Nottingham Saltbox. I've had to check two or three times. I haven't hallucinated this. Are they playing there? I've bought tickets. Is it actually happening or have I just had this really weird fever dream? So anyway, no, this witch is a bit like that. It was like the surprise and shock of something interesting happening right on my doorstep that I'm actually interested in. So anyway, I give you the story of Anne Wagg, a woman of ill repute.

Is Wagg spelled the football way? W-A-G? Or is it two G's? Oh, there is a can of worms because it really depends who you ask and even within the same parish registers, you know, it all gets a bit exciting. W-A-G, W-A-G-G, W-A-G-G-E. I was wondering if you were going to drop a final E and you did. Yep. Oh, and sometimes there's even an R after the W. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. It all gets, it all gets very exciting. As an Alistair, I am no stranger to different name spellings. Yeah.

On the an as well, sometimes it's A-N-N or A-N-N-E and you know, it's... Was one of the, was the one with the R in it, was that when Ari H Corbett playing David Bowie was reading the Church of the Seas. So she's less a wife and girlfriend, more a witch and goblin? Well, it depends. It depends which, sorry, every time I say the witch, it makes me laugh. Now, who you listen to, but yes, once upon a time there was a baker by the name of Francis Torrett, or Torrat, again, a word that I've written and read so many times I could do it in my sleep, but can't pronounce. Now, on the 18th of June 1650, Francis Torrett made the 11 or so mile journey from Ilkeston in Derbyshire to Derby itself. A baker's 10 mile journey.

How he got there, no one knows. Did he walk it? Did he hitch a ride from a neighbor? Did he tell the Ilkiston flyer bus? That one's unlikely. But let's imagine for argument's sake that he went by horse and cart. Otherwise it would have taken rather a long time to get there. Yes, standard horse and cart vibe. Someone would get in from him. But however dear old Francis made his journey later that day, he stood before justice of the peace. Oh, I've done it here. Haven't I? Gervais, Gervais, Gervais Bennett at the Derby quarter sessions and told the most weird and wonderful tale indeed.

I think it needs to be Gervais Bennett or Gervais Bennett. I don't know. We could be in a Sean Bean situation. Yes. Yeah, you've got both. We could be in a Se we could be in a Sean Bean situation. Yes, yeah, you've got both. We could be in a Seyat Leone situation. No, wait a minute, I'm confused. Charlize Theron. Charlize Theron. There are too many words that just shouldn't be spoken and should only ever be read or

written really, aren't there? So yes, good old Gervais Bennett and yes, Francis Torat told this most weird and wonderful tale because according to him, Ilkeston inhabitant Anne Wagg was well known as a witch and had been suspected as such for many years. Now his own personal experience with Anne's witchy ways had occurred around three years ago and again it's all very specific when Anne had spoken unfavourably about himself and his wife. He knew she'd done this because it had occurred in the hearing of the torrent's servant Elizabeth Parkson, who had, of course, like any good employee, informed the torrents of Anne's offensive

words. Now, unfortunately for Miss Parkson, the fact she had informed against the witch got back to Anne herself. And the following Sunday, the tor torrets were on their way to the local church, St Mary's, with their maid when Anne Wagg stepped forward to block their path. She said nothing, which was a strange thing in itself, and just frowned at the maid. That's, I mean, this is not necessarily witchy stuff so far. This is just, I don't really like people, you know, having a go at me. Say it to my face. You've been calling us.

That's what we'd say in the northeast. Heard you've been calling us. Been calling us. That's what you think. But more is yet to come because nothing else happened at the time, but somewhat disconcerted by the encounter, but with no further ado, the party moved on their way. Now, this is where the drama starts. Soon after, the maid felt ill. Okay. Now, there aren't many details of this illness, but one of the symptoms recorded was that she

couldn't move and was therefore confined to bed. Now, obviously, illness isn't uncommon, especially in the day and age we're talking about. A local area had had a plague not that long ago, in distant memory, we're in the middle of the Civil War period, but the maid remembering the strange incident with Anne Wag frowning at her came to the obvious conclusion that Anne Wag had bewitched her and was to blame for her condition. So Anne, the torrets and everyone else connected to the matter were quick to agree. Now due to her condition, the maid was moved to a bed in the torrets own bedroom. Yeah, that's a sensible thing to do when your maid is immobilized. It's just move her bed into your bedroom. Oh yeah, perfect sense. And they all settled down for a good night's sleep.

Would she be more or less easy to move, I suppose, if she was, was she like stiff as a board? I assume yes. It was like the craft. I have to hope that getting around doors wasn't too, wasn't too tricky there. That could have been. To be fair though, they wouldn't have seen the episode of Friends where they shout pivot. So it would have been less annoying. Yeah. Even back then they wouldn't have even seen the plank sketch. That's true. So they wouldn't have known that you have to turn it narrow way onto the door. So they

would have blocked her, block, block into the doorway time and again. Yeah. I'd been lucky to get her in at all. The story might never have happened, you know, if she hadn't made it into that bedroom, all of it would have just poor Anne Wagg, you know, maybe should have hoped that didn't happen. They'd just pop her up in the corner and forget about her. This one's gone stiff. Yeah, this one's, this one's broken. But yeah, sadly, the good night's sleep was not to be around 9pm ish, the maid cried out in great distress. The torrets however, found they couldn't move or even speak to answer her.

Okay, so it's spreading. Yeah, when suddenly something in capital letters here, something leapt from the maid's bed. And with that suddenly they were all able to speak again. Okay, that's good and bad. It sounds a little bit like sleep paralysis happening to three people simultaneously, which is quite impressive, which you were. Did you see the cat the maid demanded? Now, it's not clear whether the torrets agreed that they'd seen this or not, but there were bigger problems at hand as although everyone

could now speak, they were still unable to move. And they couldn't move until the cat left the room. That was no cat. That was a witch, slash witch is familiar. It might have been a real cat. So the torrents could now go to their poor maid who was now in a terrible state, crying and struggling for breath. And it was all quite dramatic. They came to the conclusion that obviously Anne Waag was to blame. They thought, obviously this is Francis Torrat is telling this to poor old Gervase Bennett, justice of the peace at this point, and they decided to do a test. Now, it doesn't say when this happened, I'm assuming within the next day or so. There's a generally held belief that if iron fire tongs were put in the fire, a witch couldn't leave the room until the tongs were taken out again.

Okay, that's an alarming but actually relatively non-violent way of detecting a witch. I was worried when iron fire tongs and fire came into the story, but it seems that they don't actually touch or make contact with the suspected witch. It sounds like this is the prelude to it, isn't it? Because presumably the witch is unable to leave the room because she's like, what are you doing with them tongs? What are you going to do with them tongs? Yeah.

What are you going to do? And then they're like, I'll get you. Get you with them, probably. Well, I'm not sure why Anne Wag agreed to go into that room in the first place or why she was there, but again, the details that get left out of these accounts, it's really quite frustrating. Come and check out our tongs, Wag. Yeah, if I saw somebody put iron tongs into the fire, I'd be alarmed. But if they then pulled them out, that is when I would leave.

Instantly, yeah. And quickly as well. Especially if you were suspected of being a witch. Yeah. Not because I'm a witch. I just don't want to be tongued. We've almost got to a resale tongue again. Tongue, tongue.

We're getting... Which is how my dad pronounces tongued. What if he was to be French kissed like the dog on the cover of the book? He would say she's tonguing a dog if my dad described the cover of that book. She's about to tongue that dog. Hey, take it with my dad. No, but the witch, the witch, the witch might be. She was not tonguing the dog or the cat, but she did leave the room

when the tongs were taken out of the fire. Oh, and, and, and, and. Yeah. Rookie mistake. This is like, Wagatha Christie, when they, they got what's her name. Ragatha, and this is specifically about her surname because as we've discussed previously, those words are copyrighted. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's annoying. We're not really allowed to use them. But if you pronounce it like David Bowie, we're good for Christy. With Harry H. Corbett playing David Bowie in the biopic that should have been. Well, we're not party to what Justice Bennett had to say in response to all of this. I mean, part of me thinking he probably needed a few pints of beer after that. But eight days later, a party of other inhabitants from Ilkeston, again, we don't know how they got there, also made the journey to stand before him with their own tales of woe regarding

the witch and wag. So, whether he said, go and bring your friends and give us some more information or whether they were already on the way, I'm being very flippant here. I shouldn't be, but you know what I mean. If he was anything like Ricky Gervais, he probably just laid down some truths that the woke can't handle for about an hour without any very clear punchlines. Just isn't very basic open mic provocateur. Anyway, carry on.

Maybe that's why it took eight days to get the next lot to go there. Do we have to? But so according to Elizabeth Goddard, who was one of the women who made that journey 15 years ago, 15 years ago, 15 years ago, and had come to her house and asked to buy some whey. Now she'd been refused because Elizabeth had said ... It's actually a bit embarrassing, I don't want to correct you. Yeah, well, it's all that kissing cats and dogs, you know, there's not a lot to do with

Ilkeston on a cold winter night. So yeah, she came for some whey and Elizabeth refused her saying she was saving the whey that she did have for her sister. Whey. her saying she was saving the way that she did have for her sister. Yeah, it goes better. Anne, very offended, demanded to know if her money was not as good as hers and went away really quite annoyed. I mean, come on Anne though, come on. Anne may be in the wrong there. You can't demand away.

Apparently, apparently she thought she could. And that night the Goddard's young child fell ill with fits and shaking and he suffered for the best part of a week before recovering which was a great relief to the parents But unfortunately this was short-lived because Anne visited again at some point not long afterwards asking to buy butter and was again refused due to there not being any and the child had a relapse and died the following morning Yeah, the first death of the story child had a relapse and died the following morning. Oh no. Yeah. The first death of the story. Yeah.

I was, I was going to do a nice kid. You got there. It'd be a shame if something happened to it kind of thing, but then something did happen to it. Something did happen. Now I feel quite bad, but it was clearly a shakedown. Yes. So clearly I'm ready to blame. Yeah.

It was a dairy heist. A whey is a dairy thing, right? Yeah. Curds and whey. Curdsaging to blame. Yeah. It was a dairy heist. Whey is a dairy thing, right? Yeah. Curds and whey. Curds and. Yeah. We're all thinking a Little Miss Muffet. Surely.

We don't, we have no other context for curds and whey. No, I hear about curds and whey all the time from my, from many channels. Canadians do it, have curds, don't they, on their chips? What? It's a Canadian thing. Curds and gravy. Curds and gravy on their chips? What? It's a Canadian thing. Curds and gravy. Curds and gravy on their potato, not crisps, not what we would call crisps. Fries. Fries,

but they have like quite fat fries because they've got, you know. They have just curds on there. Curds and gravy, I believe. That is the worst thing I've ever heard. Okay. We just heard about a kid. We did just hear about a kid that got magic today. It's much worse than that kid who died. By magic. We did, but these are important questions, you know, eating curds on... Curds and gravy. And I think the gravy is like a particularly thin vinegary gravy. It's more like, it's like sauce or whatever it is in Scotland or somewhere.

I'm now, I'm now freestyling. Sauce. Isn't it called sauce? And maybe I don't, I haven't heard of sauce. Don't ask me how to pronounce things. We've already established that I have no idea how anything is said ever. And I'm pretty certain that Anne Wagg was not planning on having her way on her chips. Good. She's not going to have her way with my chips. Alice, Alice Day was another woman who came to give some evidence. Now, two to three years ago, a little less specific, she had attended her friend Elizabeth Webster on her deathbed.

The dying woman had told Day that Anne Wagg had done her ill in some unspecified way. Alice suggested that she pardoned Anne to clear her conscience, but Elizabeth Webster refused. And Elizabeth Webster, unfortunately, also died without the situation resolved. Yep. The body count is now up to two. Not that good a friend if she's like, she died two or three years ago. I'm a little fuzzy. A little fuzzy. Yeah, yeah. Some went, some went, some went about that, yes. And then Alice Carpenter told the justice how just a year ago, one of her children, and this is a chicken, one of her children,

was taken ill with great screeching and crying and the infant was in great torment for the space of a week before, I'm sure you can see where this is going now. This child also died and she offered up the information that Anne Wagg was of ill repute. Oh, come on now. This is... I mean, that seems tenuous. We can't link these cases. If I were the justice of the peace, I'd be like, no way, these cases aren't connected.

I can't go out there and tell the mayor that these cases are connected and we've got ourselves a witch on our hands. Oh, well, there's more. There is more further, more evidence. William Smith was keen to report that we'd not had any, he didn't have any direct altercation with Ann Weick himself. I'm happy to turn up and tell the justice of the peace company anyway. Why were you there, William? Never mind, I don't know who she is. Anyway, I made the 11-mile trip. I'm here.

What do you want to know? Well, two months ago, she was apparently, Anne had been present when William Smith had visited John Elliott or Elliot and asked her some milk and she wasn't given any and went away grumbling and William Smith related how he told John Elliott that he should have given her some milk because you don't refuse and wag, but it was too late, dairy based incidents. It was too late. Dairy-based incidents. It was too late. A previously healthy calf of John Ellett's died overnight. It seems to me that the people of this village cannot embrace the principles of capitalism.

She has got money and she's trying to buy products from them. It's just basic commerce. And they keep saying, no, for no reason at all, I'm not going to sell you my butter and my whey or any milk. Or curds. We object to your efforts to start dairy capitalism in this community. I mean, to give them some possible credit, it could just be that they didn't have enough, there were food shortages around the Civil War period and everything. I'm not saying it was right to kill those children, just to be clear. I'm not saying that was correct.

Or that cow child. Or that child cow. Yeah, and we're getting right up to real time now because just five weeks beforehand, Bridget Fox, yes, in the 1650s, not like real time now. Right, bang up to date in the 1650s. Not like the old time now. Right, bang up to date in the 1650s. Yes, Anne Wagg is still out there, but no, just five weeks ago, Bridget Fox. But she's moved on to milk substitutes. So yeah, she's going for oatly.

Why don't you come around asking for your help, bro? She is now vegan. Oh no, a vegan witch, the most dangerous kind. Yes, Bridget Fox, the wife of William Fox, the vicar of Ilkeston since 1633, had also suffered a strange illness. The Reverend Wiley Fox. I'm not making this up. This is true. This is all true and corroborate. Corroborate.

It can be corroborated. There we go. It's pronounced as-is. It can be corroborated. There we go. It's pronounced as-is-is. But in standard witch thwarting style, Anne Wagg, clearly holder of most likely to be a witch award, we've established was summoned to Bridget's bedside so that the... I think she's holding two awards. She's most likely to be a witch, most likely to want dairy. Yeah. She was summoned to Bridget's bedside so that the ill woman could scratch her. Now, this process involved drawing blood from a suspected witch with the belief doing so would

break the witch's hold on their victim. And it clearly worked because as a shock turn of events for this story, Bridget was still alive long after this story finished. Oh, survived. Oh, Bridget survived. That's how you can remember with Ann Wag, isn't it? Because it's died, died, died, died, died, survived. Yes. And then unfortunately back to the other trend. And then back to died, yeah.

Back to died, yes. And just 10 days before all of this happened, the 15-year-old daughter of Ann and Thomas, it's either Ancock or Ancoke depending on how you spell it. Are you dropping an H? No, no, I am not. No, no, no, actually it could have been, I don't know. I haven't checked the Paris registers for Hancock.

No, I know Ancock is in there and I'm just going to keep saying Ancock at you. You can say Anne, you can say, I don't think either of us can do a good enough Tony Hancock impression to really, to really voice Ancock. Was he ever played by Arihage Corbett? I'm sure they must've played opposite each other at some point in there. Cause this is a, this is Midlands-ish, Midlands adjacent story. What was it? Tom and what were the names of the couple?

Sorry, Tom. Hang on. Anne and Thomas. It could be Anne, Thomas, Anne Cock. So it could be a third person. Could be the name of the dog. So what happened to Anne Cock? The daughter of the Anne Cox.

Well, the girl herself and several of the neighbours were afraid that Anne Wagg was behind the illness and the girl declared that she was witch-ridden, which is something she knew for certain because at times she couldn't move. Again, summoned to the girl's bedside, you know, I do feel for Anne Wagg at this point. I know these are spread apart, but the amount of times she seemed to have been summoned somewhere, you know, what if she was walking across town on her way to try and buy way or bread or something and failing? And then it's like, hey, come here, we need to... Come and get scratched. Apparently, this case, it was just a case of asking forgiveness of each other rather than

any physical harm. So, yay. But sadly, as you can probably guess where this is going, the girl died not long after. Which kind of suggests that it wasn't anything to do with the witch to me. Yes. Especially when we consider that fact in the context of the other fact, the witches aren't real. That also makes me think it might just have been a coincidence. And if this one's a coincidence, then what does that say about all the other ones?

But what did our dear friend Gervais Bennett have to say? I hope he was a rational minded fellow and he gave Anne a fair chance. I think he said light that fire, fetch my tongs. Well, based on all of the above, what did happen to Anne Wagg? Did the evil witch get her just desserts or her chips and her curds and her dog or, well, according to various sources, that's exactly what happened. according to various sources, that's exactly what happened. Now, in the words of John Charles Cox in his hefty work, Three Centuries of Derbyshire Annals. Well handled there.

Yeah. Published in 1890 and it was so big. Yeah. Tell me how big his annals was. Oh, God. 300 years of annals. Some of the older ones are going to be barely recognizable, I'm guessing. This is what happened when I was in a library and I saw a book called Penetrating Vagas Room. It wouldn't be so bad if he hadn't been called John Charles Cox. I'd have had this chance there, but no, sorry.

Yes. I'll say that again. In the words of John Charles Cox in his hefty work, three centuries of Derbyshire annals published in 1890 and so big, it required two volumes. So 50 shades of grey, but 300 years of annals. Why Mr Cox, your annals are so big. It's the reverse of 100 years of solitude, I suppose, isn't it? It's like the ante book.

So yes, according to this, beyond the fact that the reputed witch was committed for trial, we know nothing as to her fate, But slipshod and puerile as the statements are, and wholly illogical in their reasoning, they are just as strong as many that were followed by the capital sentence. So we should think that there is little doubt that Anne Waag was burnt to death on evidence that nowadays would not even convict a poacher. Although we now, don't we now think that witches weren't burned as frequently as people in John Cox's day, Annas thought. Well, as we all know very well, what the Victorians didn't know wasn't worth knowing. So obviously he was 100% correct as to the fate of Ann Wagg. Spoiler alert,

he really wasn't. Oh, but most importantly, I was right. Yes, you were. And here ends the tale of Anne Wagg, a woman of ill repute from Ilkeston, Derbyshire. She got away with it then? Yes, despite all the Victorians and then some, and for years to come, trying to say that she was burnt or various other things. She did because the parish registers of Ilkeston have a burial record for Anne, A-N-N-W-A-G, W-A-G, sorry, a widow buried on May 10th 1663. So that's a good 13 years. Back of the net, nice one Anne.

All this kicked off. Yeah. Yes, she beat the allegations. She did. She was buried in the local churchyard. Now there's nothing to say that it went any further than those people standing there and giving evidence. She wasn't committed for trial.

There's no record that she ever, you know, had to even answer against those or such. We don't know. It could be that there's stuff missing, but... If she was buried in the churchyard, that suggests that she was on fairly, that she was on reasonably good standing, doesn't it? At least, well, at least enough to be in the parish registers and there was no nasty little aside, you know, sometimes I find the parish register entries, they can really get quite judgy.

And they were quite passive aggressive. And you'll get little like, sort of almost like snarky comments next to it, like, you know, Anne Wagg reputed a witch or so and so, you know, had a child with such and such, not the father. And it all gets very, yes, there's some wonderful little, um, aside there, but no, none of that just that she was buried and she was a widow. So who knows what happened in those 13 years? I hope or I like to think that she got a cow.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's that's your main problem. Yeah, it was lacking a cow and it all could have been solved if she'd had one. I mean, I was going to say she did have a husband, but I don't know that doesn't actually link with whether she had a cow or not, does it? Yeah, I suppose in a way men and cows are different, but you know. Yes. And also her husband did die in not 1946, in 1646. So he was dead at the time she was being accused, which is probably one of the reasons that people came for her when they did because he seems that he was quite a violent, might be the wrong word, but in the man of court role, there's various things of him having fights with people, lots of mention of blood

and a fray on various people. So it might be that it wasn't a wise thing to say anything about his wife if he was going to come and punch you in the face, so to speak. And they had at least eight children together. only two of them made it to adulthood. There was George born in 1630 and John born in 1637. They're not mentioned at all in any of these accusations. So you know. And also, a kind of a reminder there that infant mortality was sadly very high and children did die without witch, without being hag-ridden all the time.

Well, good. I'm glad the witch won because that rarely happens in stories of witchery. Yes, no, she did. Not that she was actually a witch because again, witches aren't real. No, she was not a witch. And she definitely, the time that it happened was definitely on her side because executions for witchcraft were on the wane by that point. So if it'd been 20 or 30 years earlier, it might not have had such a positive outcome. Because if she'd been found guilty of murdering anybody via witchcraft, then

she would have been, well, she would have been up for execution. Willow, are you ready for us to score and judge you and your story? I am. Let me thrust these tongs into the fire, slash a dog's mouth, depending on which kind of tongue we're talking about. Yikes. Which one of us is judging this one, James? This is a Midlands tale.

Who has jurisdiction? It's on the cusp, isn't it, of both our areas? No, I do have a slight jurisdiction in some areas of Derbyshire on certain holy days. I regard Nottingham as spiritually the North, though. I know they don't think that, but I've been there and it's basically Yorkshire. I'm sorry. They do.

They sound more North than South, but they do. They do sound, you can tell there's a mix, but I think, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna claim it for the South for this one. You're claiming it for the South. Okay, very well. And so you're gonna pass judgment. Okay, let's go.

And Willow, I'm going to fight your corner. Like, uh, like Ben, what was he called? Benoit Gervais. Gervais Benet. Gervais Benet, yes. Play by Craig David. Craig David? Play by Craig David.

Yes. Play by Craig David. From, from knives out. He investigated murder on Monday. He interrogated the family on Tuesday. Presided over some azizes on Thursday and Friday and Saturday. He chilled on Sunday. It's the Lord's Day for chilling.

But let's do it. So I reckon hit him up with, let's go naming first. I've got a plan. What's the first category? The first category is naming. Okay. Well, there's a lot of ants, half a dozen ants, and some animals as well. Several Alice's, all William, I think.

Yeah, quite generic peasant names. I have to say generic villager Thomas and cock Thomas at the comma and cock. Wasn't it? Yes. Thomas and and cock Thomas and and cock. Yes. She's called an and cock. There was the I've just realized Vicar. What was his name?

William Fox. William Fox. That's quite good. That's Wiley Fox, the Reverend Willie Fox. And there was John Cox. John Cox, 300 years of years. Yes. Yes. With his, his many, many years of annals that were too big for one volume.

Yes. Yes. Although am I allowed to offer information after the fact? I've just realized on the naming front. It's unconstitutional, but yes. One of the reasons that Anne Wagg might have been seen of being as ill repute is, again, going back to the parish registers, on the 16th of February 1657, baptism record, sorry, burial record, Thomas Wagg, son of Anne Wagg and Thomas Kant, the reputed father was buried. So, she'd had, I mean, her husband was dead at this point, but we don't know when this child was born, just when he was buried. And also, we have, again, the big capital letters of judgment, the reputed father,

but also on the name front, I have to be really careful when I'm saying Thomas Kant. Yes. Yeah. Tommy Kant. Did other people see these records? Or was it just like the vicar kind of wrote them and kept them away, but people come and go,, wait, that's what you're saying that about me. I don't know. But I mean, I imagine that what was written was common knowledge because I imagine it was a case of the Vicar wrote what everybody was saying. Yeah.

If I was doing christening, I'd be writing which babies were ugly. Just like ugly, ugly, ugmo, hideous. Is that all babies? Yeah, oblong head this one. Like score them out of 10, couldn't you? You know, like scale of one to 10 on various levels of unpleasantness, which would be a bit unfair, but you know, quite a fun way. 10 is the ugliest. 10, yes.

So you're actually aiming for a low score. Like darts. Or golf. Yep. And golf darts. Yeah. Which is way more dangerous. She's much more dangerous. If you hear four, get down.

Or witchcraft accusations, you know. You've also very dangerous. Lower, you want a lower score. James, I believe you said you had a plan. I think in this case, you want a higher score. Yes. You're looking for a five. What's your this case, you want a higher score. Yes, that's a good point. What's your plan?

It's not coming into fruition yet. I'm zeroing in like a dance golfer on a three here. That's fair enough. That's fine. Oh, okay. Well then it's a three out of five for naming. I've got, don't worry. So the plan didn't apply to that? I've pulled the curtain back across his screen.

It's all right. There's something. Wait, are you hustling me? Are you hustling me? Have you actually played golf darts before? Maybe. Pretending to be bad at it. Yes.

I mean, no. All right. What is your second category? It'd be supernatural. Supernatural. Go on. Go on. I'm your lawyer.

So I'm advising you,'m advising you to plead supernatural. The second category then is supernatural. Hold on a minute, James, what are you playing at here? There's nothing supernatural. She's not a witch. She gets away with, I mean, she doesn't get away with it. It's just a lot of sad things happening to sickly children and some overly imaginative villages. Yes, perhaps. I mean, again, I don't want to besmirch this actual person, but perhaps the biggest trick the wag ever pulled was convincing the world that they were a series of unfortunate incidents.

No, James, the biggest trick the wag ever pulled was when she put out private stories on her Instagram. Oh, yes, yes. It was the dot dot dot wasn't it? Yeah. And then revealed that it was Rebecca Vardy. Yes. But Rebecca Vardy is the one that's copyrighted the phrase that we can't use, but didn't come up with it. Right.

It was Kyle Smith Bino, right? Was it? I thought you told me that. Did I? Sounds like it. No, Kyle Smith Bino came up with Platydubs. Oh, to me, it's very much the same thing. No, it was, it was, there was a slot in my mind that was Kyle Smith

Bino came up with a thing. Yeah. I think it was Platydubs. I think you're right. It was Platydubs. But you know, do you, Camilla copyrighted that. What? No, you got me, James. So how, well, this has been delightful, but how does it add up to a high school for Supernatural, James? The plan has not come into effect yet. Okay. So we're outside of the plan. In that case, I'm afraid it's a one out of five for Supernatural.

It was a great story, but Supernatural, it, it weren't. In which case. What is your third category? We're going to go with Wag for Life. Wag for Life. All right. Okay. Explain yourself.

Well, Alistair, this was a category that you came up with. No, but don't say that ruins the illusion. It ruins the sense of spontaneity. Sounds like bag for life. Sounds like bag for life. Her name is Wag. She was a Wag for life, no matter how you spelled it. And she was both tried for a crime, which could have resulted in a life sentence

and it would have been a wag for life, but she didn't get convicted or even, I believe, tried actually, it wasn't even, the case wasn't even heard, which meant that she continued to have a very long life as a wag. So whichever way you cut it, it's a wag for life. So five score points, five score points, please. I'm not sure it's five score points. You've never asked for score points before. I don't think we call them score points usually.

I don't think I've ever said the word score points before. I don't think it is a word. I feel generously towards not so much you, James, but Anne herself, because she did it. You know, she won in the end after all those accusations were thrown at her. So I'm going to say it's a four because I'm really glad that she won. Cause almost every story of witchcraft ends up really badly for the accused witch. But in this one, she wins.

Yes. So why are you not giving her the full five? Cause I don't think, I don't know the bag for life aspect of the, of it really makes any sense. Oh damn yeah. Yeah. I just don't know if that makes any sense. I know I came up with this.

Okay. All right. The plan might not be working. I trusted you. I trusted your plan. Okay. Final category. Okay. let's hear it. You say this one Willow. It is, do you remember? Go for it then. Hit him.

What's the final category? It is lactose intolerance. Like the bit at the end of He-Man where they come out and sort of look to camera and teach you a little lesson for your own lives. There is a lesson here for our own lives, which is that you should share dairy products when pressured, but you should not accuse someone of being a witch if they are upset. If they, I'm confused. What's the moral of the story? Don't be intolerant. Don't be intolerant. Of witches.

Yeah. Have some tolerance in your life for people. Just be nice. If someone's really keen to buy your wahay. Yeah. Your wahay. Consider selling them the wahay. Wahay unto others as you would like them to wahey unto you. Yes. And people were in general, very intolerant of, of maybe people who might have acted slightly

differently or were a bit grumpy. Yeah. Also, now this is in Roald Dahl's The Witches. James, I'm so proud of you. I secretly had this in mind when I came up with the category. Yes, listener, this was my idea as well. Go ahead, James. I just reread The Witches for a podcast I do with Eleanor Morton.

And so this is at the forefront of my mind, but go ahead, James, you say it. It's from the twisted mind of Alistair Beckett King. You are a puppet dancing to my fiddle, but go ahead. Go ahead. The witches in the witches by Roald Dahl don't have toes. They have basically like fillet a fish feet base. Their feet are like a- Not Roald Dahl's words. A block of halloumi. He wouldn't even know what halloumi was. He would have no block of halloumi.

He wouldn't even know what halloumi was. He would have no idea what halloumi was. He would only have heard of some Norwegian cheeses. You're desecrating the words of Roald Dahl though. But you're right, their feet did end like a block of halloumi. Yeah, toeless. I didn't know what halloumi was until 2007. Yeah, the halloumi hadn't broken through in England for 21st century cheese to me, but

obviously it's been around for years. And I probably had- 21st century cheese. In England, it's one of your fancy modern cheeses. It's like a jazz apple, but of cheese. Yeah. James, brilliant work. Yes. Lactose intolerance, lactose intolerance. And the people, they didn't tolerate witches. They were lack of toes intolerance. Is this ruined a pun that you're going to use on your other podcast now? No, no. If anything, you've sweetened it. Sweetened the deal. Nice. It is a five out of five.

Yes. The exact number of toes a witch doesn't have according to Roald Dahl. Perfect. On one foot. Yes, yes. Five out of five. A glittering five. Congratulations Willow, James.

The plan worked. I can't believe it worked. It did. I should never have doubted you. It did work. I wonder how many times Hannibal out of the 80 went, I love it when a plan comes together. Cause that was definitely my plan.

Another lesson, obviously to learn from all of it is don't go kissing dogs. That was the other. Don't kiss dogs. Well, that's actually quite, that's quite intolerant of you to say that. Maybe we should be more tolerant to people who want to neck on with dogs. True. Like the witch on the front of the cover. Brilliant. Brilliant way of bringing this background to say that. Maybe we should be more tolerant to people who want to neck on with dogs. True, like the witch on the front of the cover. Brilliant. Brilliant way of bringing this back around to your book.

Would draw the line at kissing the unmentionables of the cat though. I think we'll just admire that from afar. Especially if it's been on the dairy. So if the listeners are eager to see a woman necking on with a dog and they don't have access to the internet. What can they do? Which book can they buy, Willow? Willow McGrath They can buy, they can buy The Story of Witches, Folklore, History and Superstition, which is available from the, you said if they don't have

the internet. Willow McGrath Oh, no, no, they can use the internet. Willow McGrath Okay, good, because otherwise it would be a very short list. I'd just say bookshops. Willow McGrath Yeah, bookshops. That's where you get, you've heard of books, right? Available from Amazon and the Backford Books website itself. Waterstones, in fact, they had an offer, which won't count for this because it's finished now. Yes, yeah, the Waterstones pre-order offer. Anybody who's thinking about traveling back in time just one week can take advantage of that pre-order offer.

In fact, I was jump scared the other day in Nottingham Waterstones going up the escalator, having just said to the kids, oh, this is a floor where mummy's books are usually lurking. Jump scared right at the top of the escalator because there was one of the Treasury of Folklore books right at the top. So yeah. Oh, wow. I thought you were going to say a member of staff kissing a dog, but that's much better. No, no, that wouldn't be Nottingham.

That would be Darby or Ilkeston. Yes, but not Nottingham. Oh, how many people are going to... Ouch. Yeah, I've not made myself any friends there, have I? I should probably change my name and move. Well, thank you very much, Willow. That was amazing. Thank you.

Thank you, Willow. Thank you for having me. Thank you. You've avoided us getting some very angry electronic mail there James. Well done. Is that what the E stands for in email? I thought it meant exciting. Yeah, I thought it was just a Yorkshire person who was impressed by the mail. Same with the bikes. Yes. E-Bikes.

And E-Cigarettes. They've got everything in Yorkshire. So Alistair, if the people listening want to hear more, what can they do? Hop on to the internet, the World Wide Web. Established. Type into your browser, patreon.com forward slash lawmenpod. Press enter. Interact interact and then sling us a few quid to be honest yes that would be lovely and tell a friend tell a friend

and tell them that they have to write a five star review yes and be very emphatic about that five five stars Five stars. And if you've not got the name of Willow's book, it's The Story of Witches by Willow Wincham and that too will be available on that internet. Oh, on the same internet? I reckon it would be on the same internet. That's convenient. Isn't it? Support your local bookstores.

Yes. If possible. Also order Alistair's book. Support your local bookstores. Buy Alistair's one. And buy my books from the local list. Your most local independent bookshop. Done.

Slightly too long, I think, there, but I'm sure that will let it down to something beautiful.