Loremen Podcast - Loremen S7Ep16 - The Legend of the Sicilian Vases with Verity Babbs

Episode Date: April 30, 2026

The Loreboys are joined by art historian and comedian Verity Babbs for a lesson in the Art of Murder. And the Art of Gardening. What horticultural secrets lie buried in the Italian legend of Isabella and her pot of basil? Meanwhile, Alasdair pilots a new bingo format and James learns a lesson that has him re-evaluating his entire life*. And if you're a fan of the sinister 1990s puppet Pob - fear not! This episode has you covered. * It's pronounced "asterisk".** ** Not the Gaul, the symbol. Buy Verity's new book! The History of Art in One Sentence Come see us in Oxford! ⁠July 2nd 2026 (2026)⁠ Edited by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Laurence Hisee⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Join the LoreFolk at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠patreon.com/loremenpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ko-fi.com/loremen⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Check the sweet, sweet merch here... ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.teepublic.com/stores/loremen-podcast?ref_id=24631⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ @loremenpod ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠youtube.com/loremenpodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.instagram.com/loremenpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.facebook.com/loremenpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Okay, when I sell my business, I want the best tax and investment advice. I want to help my kids, and I want to give back to the community. Ooh, then it's the vacation of a lifetime. I wonder if my head of office has a forever setting. An IG Private Wealth advisor creates the clarity you need with plans that harmonize your business, your family, and your dreams. Get financial advice that puts you at the center. Find your advisor at IG Private Wealth.com.

Amazon presents Laura versus Fruit Flies. Swarming your fruit and terrorizing your kitchen, these little freaks multiply at a rate that would make a rabbit say, yo. Chill. But Laura shopped on Amazon and saved on cleaning spray, countertop wipes, and fly traps. Hey, fruit flies, your baby boom ends here. Save the Everyday with Amazon. Welcome to Lawmen, a podcast about local legends and obscure curiosities from Days of Yore, with me, Alastair Beckett King.

And me, James Shakespeare. And James. Mm-hmm. You ready for some improbable pottery. From... What? Italy. From Italian.

Oh, yeah. I'd love a bit of Italian pottery. Because I've got a gruesome and romantic tale for you. Oh, yeah. Delivered by none of her than comedian and art historian Verity Babs. Oh, wonderful. Could you also include a new bingo game in there? I think I might be able to do that, James. Woff, excellent.

Hey there, James. Are you wearing your podcast in pants? Um, yes. Wait a minute. Are you American? I am in, yeah, I'm English, but I'm in both senses. Are you wearing your podcasting underpants and your podcasting trousers? Overpants, yes. Yes, I'm fully podcasted. You got your podcasting cap on? Yes, I got my podcast. I got my podcasting. socks.

Unfortunately, you're in your podcasting. Yeah. Yeah. Which is a spin-off podcast all about the character, Pob.

Of course, I forget you are a pub-mage and you can podcast whenever you whenever you choose. The power of a, I think a Welsh puppet.

Yeah. I just sort of spit on the screen. Anyway, don't, don't start talking about pop. The past. Because just there in the wings,

is it a revolting monkey-like puppet? No. No, it's not, it's not pop. It is our, it's a deputy guest lawperson, James. It's Verity Babs. Hello, Verity Babs. Hello.

Art historian, comedian. Not non-puppets, not pop. Did I go too pub heavy? I think maybe, I don't, I reckon Verity is not in the, in the poposphere. You might be too young to remember Pop. This is my first, um, Pop experience. Pop counter. This isn't how it should have happened.

I'm sorry you've been introduced to just perhaps the worst kids character of the 1980s. Our generation's nosy bonk, I would say. I was literally about to say that, Alistair, is totally. Pob's got quite a good barnet, though, don't they? Oh, does it? Like sort of pink, sort of pink, very short fringe. You've correctly identified, and I'm not sure I can get away with saying this, but that Pob has non-binary energy.

We didn't know what it was at the time. I know I spent ages saying how revolting are disgusting. But, yeah, what is pop? We don't know. Pop, very, very chic school librarian. Like a very chic type of, do you know what I mean? It's quite red lipstick, pink little fringe. You're right.

Wow. I'm going to be cancelled because of my anti-pop opinions in this episode. Well, let's not get completely derailed or preoccupied. Let's not get popped down. Pre-pop-upied. Verity, you are an art historian, you're a stand-up comedian, and I believe you've got a book to plug, which is a complete coincidence. What?

I do have a book to plug. It's called The History of Art in One Sentence, and it has 50 art movements with 10 questions in each answered in a sentence to give you a rough idea of what's going on. Oh, so it's like Bertrand Rustle's History of Western philosophy for art, So you can read it and be like, yeah, I pretty much know what's going on. It's an finish now. Impressing a date for potentially being a little bit better at a pub quiz.

But yes, in a sentence. So I'm quite short. A short book. They're not enough of them. They are long books. They do insist on being long. They're too long. They're too long.

I agree. What's your favourite movement sentence? Like, what was the easiest or funnest one to come up with? I don't normally ask questions. I know that's James is doing really good interviewing. James is like, this is my first time on the podcast. First time, first time, caller. There are two-part of what.

What is a book? Well, what would Pob say? What would Pob do? People spit on the screen and then write it on the screen. Yeah, that one sentence. Which is what Pob did. You can't possibly know that. Right, no.

I'll start making notes. But the only real joke in the book is about the outsider artists and it sort of falls under an umbrella term of another movement called Art Brute and the person who invented Art Brute he started to put together a collection of art brute artworks

and the question is what does Art Brute have to do with champagne and it's because of this collection that technically only things in that collection are technically art brute and everything else is just sparkling outside. And you miss this there because brute is like a kind of champagne, isn't it? So I was like, where's it going?

Where's it going? That's very nice. That's the one joke in the book, so I'd save your money. But the rest of it is sort of artists betraying each other and shacking up and behaving badly. So lots of fun. Yeah, they're awful artists, aren't they? Not like comedians. You never do anything bad.

There's an intensity. to needing the attention of others that spans all sorts. Yeah. There's someone who's getting our goat in our household at the moment. There's a priest in America who plays the drums. Oh, right. Reverend Drumhead. And he's going quite viral for playing the drums.

And that feels like maybe you shouldn't have been a priest and you should have just done something. That that feels like there's a need beyond being a priest to sort of gather people around. No, yeah, there's one respectable side job for a man of God, and that is solving mysteries. Yes, cycling detective. Yeah. Being a regular panelist on QI.

Yeah, exactly, that sort of thing. Speaking of, actually, your name, Verity, I know we're not in a position to throw stones in this glass house, but you do sound, your name is kind of the name of a character from a cozy crime mystery, don't you think? It is. It is. It's a good combination of noises, is what it is. I feel like people, you might not get opportunities to run tomboas because people fear that a murder will occur if you're present.

Like, just keep her out of the fate altogether. I don't think she should be involved. Archery, are you mad? No! It's been handy not to have to change my name for anything, but there was a friend of mine at school, her mother for about three years thought that my name was charity bags. So if I were to change it, I'd have changed it to that. That's lovely.

That's a good name. I think James has had similar mistakes, but we've probably already done them on the podcast before. Fake fafed, fake fafed. Had a credit card of the name fake fafed. Who is fooling who? Fake fafed. Fake fafed. Did you submit it using the typography of like the 16th century and they got confused by the S?

Well, weirdly, the F and the S on a telephone, because it was like an extra card. So it wasn't, I wasn't the main holder of the card. It was back, I don't know if you can do it anymore even, but you used to be able to get a spare credit card for a friend. So you could, a much more quicker debt. Verity is younger than us. She has no idea that credit used to be readily available. A credit card for Pob? They give you three or four mortgages in the morning, just on your way to school when we were kids.

But yes, it turned out. and credit back in those days. F and S are on a telephone indistinguishable. I see. So who thought So you spelled the name aloud? Yes. Yes. And they typed Faf. Yes.

Twice. Fake fafed. And they didn't say, is this a made up name? Fake fafed. It's like Mario and Wario. It's like your archimicist. Yeah. The evil James. It's the little middle version of.

me. Well, Verity, I'm told that you've brought a story to us. Now, James and I don't know this story at all. I have brought a story with me, and I realise that in my research, I've almost entirely bypassed the local sort of key part of all the stories that come on Norman. So, this is Italian. Well, it's local to Italians. Well, that's where all the art comes from, isn't it? I can only apologise, but there are some very good British paintings of this story. Excellent. But I wanted to find a legend that was tied to an object because I'm starting my campaign to become an antiques expert

without having to get an actual job. So I'm just... You're not going to get on... Because of the ideas that we outlined earlier, I don't know if you're going to get on Antiques Roadshow. As far as I'm concerned, Pop, Pop is height. It's peak renaissance for me, as far as I'm concerned. But I thought I would tell you,

Some of the stories about Sicilian moors heads, they are traditional decorative vases from Sicily. They often cause me to do a double take in a gift shop. Yes. So they are as large as life. What's life size? Yes. They're a one-to-one scale. They are a one-to-one scale.

So they're very large. And they're sold in pairs, a man and a woman. And there are three different stories about... how these vases came to be, but each of them involves a man's head in ending up in a vase. Oh. Which, um, uh, and, and growing basil. So this is a largely basil-based tale. Excellent.

It's basil based. If you were playing herb bingo, yes. Basil is the first one to cross off. Yeah. You want to hope that's in the middle. Yeah. Yeah.

Just, just flagging that up. So the first tale, um, is that, This story came about when Sicily was part, was the Emirate of Sicily, so was being ruled by Arab dynasties in the 9th to the 11th centuries. And the story goes that a girl who was a keen gardener and was attending to her plants saw and fell in love with a North African man. And later it transpired that he already had a wife and children. And so in his sleep, she beheaded him. not out of anger. What?

That of disappointment? Because he let himself down? Yeah. But so that they would be together forever. Oh. Oh, so it was a romantic beheading. It was, I'll keep you as you are. I'll go back to sort of factory reset.

Yeah, I don't wish to pick holes, but I would say, as he was, was in one piece. Yeah. Unless she's making him. I think we've discussed on. this podcast before. The problem with beheaded is, if there were a word for having a head, it would also be beheaded. Oh yeah. So it's confusing. It's the, it's the, it's the inflammable unflammable situation, isn't it? It is indeed. I also think beheaded is actually quite a nice word

for beheading someone. Like beheading someone quite grisly, but beheaded, um, sounds quite sort of betrothed. It feels quite medievably and nice. Decapitation. No, no, no fun to be had there. A cool new hat. Decapitation? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That would be DACAP. Yeah, that would be DACAPitation, yes. I feel like there's a coffee shop in Peckham called the decapitation, surely.

Oh, yes. Which solely sells decaffeinated coffees. It's gone out of business. Yes, yes, it has. We just didn't know what it was. People liked about coffee, and now we know. And now we know. But so she cuts his head off and keeps it, and she uses it as a vase

for her basil and she waters it with her tears and apparently the basil does... I'm so sorry to interrupt but I'm just trying to visualise. There's a lot of details in this story. Are they going in the neck, hole? Are they going in the mouth? I'm not exactly sure. A lot of the drawings of this happening do put the head in a vase hidden so you're not really seeing what they're, whether they're doing a sort of pumpkin.

Right, okay. Taking the lid off like a boiled air. But in my head... Taking the lid off as similar to beheading makes it sounds a lot nicer than I'm actually describing. Yeah, just take the lid off. Like a yoghurt. Don't look at... Don't look at...

So in my head, I'm imagining it more like a boiled egg of taking the top off. Take the top off, pops as flowers in. Yeah. I've got a real creche vibe going on. I don't know. Did you ever do that at school? Isn't it? It's like those crest heads.

Mm. But apparently the basil did so well being grown out of this man's head and the... watered by her tears, that all of the neighbours thought, I need one of them. So they all started ordering ceramic vases in the shape of people's heads to hopefully invoke some of that growing potential. Is that because they presumed that's what she had done because they could not believe that she would have actually decapitated an actual person? Oh, I wonder whether she's like, she's like this all the time. We can't stoop to her level. I like the idea of Colombo being

I just have to come back for more of that Basil, it's such great Basil What's your secret? Potash, I think is that what it's called? Yeah, that's what Liza. Is it made out of bone? Yeah, anyway. Potash is potassium nitrate or something like that.

No, potassium nitrate is an explosive. Is it? I think potash is, because potassium's name comes from potash. Does it? I guess. I think so. I guess there's potassium in. Potash? I don't believe potash is made out of bones. The bone meal is used for...

Yeah, yeah. Okay, I see. I only just realised that bone china is made of bones. What? Yeah, big problem for the vegans. Not allowed to have very fine dainty cups. What? Why did they do that? And that's the biggest thing you have to give up when people are like, I just can't give up cheese.

It's going to be my little cups. Little dainty cups is a bit. big problem, yeah. It's made of bones. It's not all bone. Obviously they grind up the bones. Yes. It's not carved.

Burnt. No. Burt sort of bone ash. Burnt, I think, cattle bones. But basically, we couldn't really, in Europe, we couldn't really work out what was making Chinese porcelain so good. And we were like, oh, chuck some bones in it. Have a go.

Oh. Nice one. It would be great to live in the era of give it a try. Archemy, you know, where there's a million mushrooms out there, no one's eaten any of them. Just, they've got to do something. You know, let's find out what's poisonous. Make sure you write it down before you eat it, and then that's great. Well, have someone watching over.

I'm sure they're just like, they're sent out whoever from the castle to sacrifice themselves. Yeah, yeah. It'd be a sad lot. But another story of, another version of this story of the Sicilian heads is that they are quite similar. They are two star-cross lovers. She is a princess and he was a young Arab, which is why often

the female head will have a crown and the young man will often be wearing a turban. And their parents punished them for having an affair by having them beheaded and turned into vases to be hung on a balcony as a warning and which is why they're always made in pairs.

Oh. As a warning to their other children? Just a general all, I'd know it's like those street corners where they have like a very high-pitched squealing noise to stop youths from gathering. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I hear that all the time because I'm quite young and relevant.

I can always hear it. Got some of the trendiest ears around. I can hardly hear it over the sound of all the TikToks and Snapchat's I'm listening to. I can hardly hear it over all the episodes of Pop, I'm streaming right now. Yeah, but like at the topic. It's part, but at the bottom, it's like someone playing a video game. I have to have both at the same time. I'm just two gen alpha.

But the next one we have, which is where a lot of paintings sort of draw the story from, was a 14th century Italian writer called Boccaccio, Bacaccio, I'm not really sure. Is it two Cs together? Double C, double C, B, OCCA, C-C-I-O, Bacacacaccio. C, C makes a chur. But it can't be bocaccio. Baccio. Baccio.

Let's just call him Giovanni. Yes. So it's a Giovanni in the 14th century. He wrote a series of short stories called the De Cameron. Which is David Cameron. And there's a very unpleasant bit in the middle of Decairrean. And it's full of lots of really brilliant stories. There's one that I saw that was basically about, it's meant to be a story about loyalty,

but basically it's just this story of this man who gets married and then is kind of horrible to his wife and pretends he's killed their kids and then divorces her sort of for fun and pretends that he's going to remarry one of their kids, which she doesn't know is her daughter, to test her loyalty. And in the end he's like, ah, none of it was true, you are a good wife. but this is like over the course of 20 years. That is, that makes YouTube pranksters look better. Honestly, I didn't think anything could redeem those guys who play pranks on their wife. But this is worse than that.

Sorry, Alistra, I have a confession. I did a prank on my wife the other day that I learned off the internet. You prank ed your wife? I pranked them. Did you leave a cucumber next to her and she was surprised that's cats? That's cats, I forgot. What happened? We were, in my defense,

we're at an owl sanctuary. Yeah, yeah. Get the defence in because I'm feeling very judgmental. You're at an owl sanctuary. In my defence, we were at an owl sanctuary

and the giddy, carefree atmosphere carried you away? I did the, they've been saying that you sound like an owl one. What's that? Alist, did they say you sound like an owl?

That I sound like an owl? Yeah, they're saying it. Are they? Oh, okay, you're not falling for it. Am I doing the prank wrong? Am I being prank wrong? The full, do you know the prank?

I do. Oh, am I supposed to say who? Yes. The problem is, you know, so many people are talking about me. My name is always on people's lips. It didn't occur to me that the people wouldn't be talking. It's quite, it had sort of a bit of a bitter response to it. It's like, yeah, I bet they are.

Yeah. That's not even the worst of it, mate, to be honest. I like, we spent a very long time trying to get my father-in-law to join in with the joke of saying, saying it smells like up dog in here. Wait, wait, I don't know this one. Wait up, wait up. It just smells a bit like updog. Yeah, James, don't you think it smells like up dog in here?

What's up dog? Not much. How about you? Yes! Yes! It worked. So good. Just such good, clean fun.

Oh, that is lovely. I don't think these are pranks. These are just jokes. They're not pranks. Okay. That's okay, James. You're forgiven. Fine.

And as I say, I was at an unsectry. was at an owl sanctuary or better off. Yeah, contextually good. But in the DeCamron, a girl either called Elizabetha or Isabella, she's an orphaned noble girl, and she falls in love with the lowly Lorenzo, who might well be an employee of her brothers. And they fall in love, and the brothers find out, and they end the relationship. And they end the relationship by murdering him.

and they bury him in a shallow grave. So she's upset, but Lorenzo comes to her in a dream to tell her where his body is buried. So she finds Lorenzo's body, and in crazed grief, she cuts off his head and hides it in a vase, filling it with Basil and watering it with her tears. So the vase is more sort of hiding. but the brothers find out and they throw away the vase because they're like, this is gross. And she dies of a broken heart.

Oh. Bad way to go. Yeah. It was reminding me of the Duchess of Malfi, which is sort of the same, that a woman marries, the Duchess of Malfi secretly marries her servant

and then her brothers, but they make her believe that he's been killed. And then, of course, everyone ends up dying because it's a tragedy. But that was based on a true, story I'm just looking up. So maybe this sort of thing happened in Italy all the time.

That's a prank. None of this updog nonsense. No. They got in the play, they make wax figurines of her husband and children dead and say, well, there you go. Don't get too near. He's dead. And she thinks they're dead. So yeah, it is a horrible prank. That's rough. And then one of them becomes a werewolf. What? Well, he thinks he goes mad and thinks he becomes a a werewolf. He's a lycanthrope.

What? This is a great way. It's got loads of stuff happening in it. And that blurs the line because you were like, he becomes a werewolf. So you were in his, from his perspective. Yeah, no, he doesn't actually become a werewolf. He goes mad and thinks that he becomes a wolf. Worse things to think you've become if you go mad.

Mm. Such as puffin. Discuss. We're puffing. But, um, but, um, but, so. What a horrible story. A horrible story, but this is the version of the ceramic heads that have become most popular in British storytelling. So there are lots of pre-Rapha-like paintings of the story of Isabella.

And the most famous one was done by John Everett Millet in 1849. And you might have recognized it. They're at a big dinner party, a big dinner table. and Isabella at the front is being passed a cut blood orange by Lorenzo, which is symbolic of someone's about to be decapitated. I'm looking at it now, and his face really says poisoned orange. Big time. He's like, oh, orange for me lady.

It's a normal orange. On the right-hand side, she's being sort of, she's being snuck an orange. but without a doubt the best character in the painting is one of Isabella's brothers in the front who's just randomly kicking a dog Is he kicking the dog or is he just stroking it with a toe because sometimes they don't like it but sometimes I will stroke a passing dog with a toe

and the dogs tend to get a bit uppity about that It was deemed controversial because if you look at the table linen next to the groin of the brother kicking a dog, there is a novelty, novelty willie. Wow, let's have a look. The shadow of a, of a, of a, of some, of a, of a, of a, of a, of a, of a, of a, of a, of a, of a, of a, of a, of a, a, of a, a, of a, a, yeah, state. Yes.

Was a controversial. I, I, I, I, I didn't know whether I could say erection, so I went with novelty, willy. They are the, the, the more novelty, so I, yeah, yeah, state. Yeah, state. Yeah. Monoval state. Oh, right. Yeah, so he's holding the nutcracker

and it's the shadow of that, but it's emanating from his crotch. Oh, I see. Yeah. And in the bottom right, it says PRB, which sounds, if you pronounce it, like a fart.

So that's quite rude as well. That's how rude. At the time when the pre-Rafelites were making their paintings, they'd sign them PRB, and they'd write PRB on their sort of clubhouse door, which is at one of their mum's house. Oh. And they wouldn't tell anyone,

on what it meant, but they did quite like a rumour that it stood for penis rather better, which doesn't actually mean anything, but is funny. Dan what? Exactly. Just an average or than some other organ? That's weird. That's a terrible. So nobody knows what stands for.

It stands for the pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood. Oh, I thought it was pre-Raphaelite painting. And if you... It's a misspelling of Pob. So if I understand this, correctly. If you join the pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood, then you can wear pre-Raphylite Brotherhood armour, but otherwise you won't have the secret of using Power Armor, is that correct? I'm doing an RPG joke, some of the listeners will have appreciated that that was a fallout

reference. It's not going over really well here, but I think that was good. I have some pre-Raphaelite questions. Yes. So I thought Raphael was one of the Renaissance people. Yes. but I thought pre meant before but you said 18 something and I'm pretty sure the Renaissance was before that. Is there any book that I could buy

that were just playing some same one sentence? But I do not want to have to read in paragraphs but that's what I want. But yeah so it's pre-Rapha-o-like brotherhood were a 19th century art movement and it's quite sweet. They have a real sense that they're going to change the world

but they're all like 19 years old at the time of becoming this art movement. So of course they did. And a bit obsessed with Willys. They're quite obsessed with Willys. They like a party. They like their girlfriends. But they are just meeting up in their mum's London living rooms. So it feels like today they'd sort of be on a watch list to make sure they don't get radicalised.

But they believe that art had basically gone downhill post-Raphael. And they wanted to go back to pre-Raphael where things were sort of simple and beautiful. So that's why their work sort of looks a bit medievaly and a lot of the stories that they paint are medievaly as well. Oh, I see. Thank you very much. That's all right. But all of these sort of basilie stories, but it turns out that Basil in the Renaissance had sexy connotations. and it was believed that putting a pot of it on your windowsill would sort of suggest it passes by

that you had a sexy available daughter. Oh, like pampas grass. Like a pineapple outside your door there. Or a duck, it turns out, when camping. A duck when camping? A live duck. Do we have done this already? Yeah, when we did the Strange Days Festival,

the night, the 1am gig. Weirdly, I don't remember much. about that. An audience member was insistent that the sort of camping equivalent of pampas grass is to leave a duck outside your tent. How do you get the duck to stay there? Which we didn't know. Ultimately, it may have turned out that it was a plastic one. Yeah. Right. You got to tether your duck, I guess. I don't know. You better had. Yeah. But yeah, anyway, Basil is the way forward. sexy Basil or you know that or you are eligible to be wooed it was sort of represented love and love and devotion but also death because of all of those beheadings yeah I wonder why we don't think Basil is

sexy now is it Basil Faulty probably yeah I think it's brush brush was the death nail it was the final nail in the coffin I know I think Basil Brush is quite sexy much definitely is more sexy than pop as puppets go as puppets that have been mentioned on this show go, Basil Brush is probably the sexiest. Yes. Of the two, yes. Physically, I think Basil's, I think Basil's, I think Basil's voice is off-putting. Ah, so it's not, his personality is the problem.

Yeah. And the voice, yeah. But looks wise, ding-dong. No, he absolutely, he's a fox. Because he is. But, yeah, at that point in the Renaissance, Basil also very expensive, and it's named after the Greek word for royal, so it's always been like quite an expensive plant

and like a lovely thing to have. So in ancient Greece, apparently you were forbidden to harvest basil with an implement unless it was made out of silver or gold. So they took all very seriously. It is quite, I'm quite proud of myself

at the minute. I've got a basil plant that's been, I bought from a supermarket that's been going since last June. I'm sorry for laughing, James. I don't know why I left. I am impressed. It's pretty impressive actually.

I mean, it's very close to death now. Well, they don't expect them to last, those supermarket basal plants. You've defied the odds there. Well, I've put it in a little, in a sort of dish, and that's how I water it. That's the trick. You would do the soaking up water rather than water on top. Oh, okay.

You're not water logging the leaves. Exactly. We have a, is it a poncettia? Those sort of quite Christmasy plants that have red leaves. Oh, yes. from a few Christmases ago that's still going but it's sort of cycles through green leaves and red leaves and they sort of make it be red for Christmas time

so that means that whenever the leaves happen to be red we say Merry Christmas Oh that's nice Which is nice We have one of those Christmas flowers that I think Well actually we have two of them I think people throw away But they just keep living

My mum said oh no they die after they flower But they don't They just throw them away They just they want to live They do if you do if you throw away They do. They do if you fling them out the window, Caff. They live if you water them with your tears on your balcony.

But yeah, I think I've got, I've also got one of those... So it's Christmas in our house at the moment because that flower, that Christmas flower is flower. Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas. We've got what I've also got one of those, one of those terracotta, not tarotot, one of those vase head things. Like a mini, it's not life, it's not human, full-grown human size. It's child human size. but I think I might combine it with the basil plant now.

Yeah. I don't know I'm going to do that. Maybe it will grow better. I'll let you know. And do you get some crying done. Oh yes. And weep into it, of course. A little bit of weeping.

Weep and put it outside your door to let you know that your neighbours know that you are a flirty young woman. You want to be careful about that. I don't want to give up wrong messages plant-wise. Yeah. Yeah. You do live in the suburbs, James. We all know what happens there. It's going to be a murder.

Verity will have to investigate. And I've got Rosemary and Time, which were also a detective pairing. They were a detective duo, yes. And that's also two more ticks on your herb bingo for the day. We're getting close. Sorry, that's, if there was a long horn sound, I live in Southampton where there's a big shipping water, and I think that might be the Disney Cruise, which in the, several times in the middle of the night does, you know, blows its big horn,

but it does sometimes blow the horn to the tune of a dream as a wish your heart makes. What? Which I, and I cannot emphasize enough how out of tune it is. So it is quite haunting in the night to have a sudden loud blast of evil a dreamers, a wish your heart makes from the darkness of the night. So that might be what that is. When you say you live next to some shipping water, do you mean the channel? the river solent

Oh the So it's a technical term Of the solent So I mean Ships horns are not musical instruments They are very much the bagpipes As if you're slapping a musician's hands Away from the Shipshorn

Goodness sake Ships horns are not musical instruments Look with your eyes I'm imagine it's one of the Disney bad guys Who was doing it like Pete or something Yeah Bluto One of the guys with that body type.

Yes. They got terrible gloves. Yes, but it is loud. It's loud and haunting. That is big. The people on the cruise probably recognize the tune based on the context.

Why would they want that? In the night. And it does happen at night more than it happens in the day. You wouldn't want that. I don't want to be too morbid about this, but I don't know if I've mentioned this on the podcast before. Does it mean someone's died?

No. No, it doesn't mean someone's died. But, Because all the cruise ships are registered in like the Cayman Islands and tax havens, if somebody dies or goes missing aboard one of those cruises, it's investigated by the authorities of the, I don't want to cast aspersions, police of the tax haven that the ship is registered in. And as a consequence, nobody ever really looks into it when people go missing on cruises.

It's very hard to get people to investigate them properly. Because of real life, death in paradise. It's, well, it is except people that have actually died in real life mysteriously. And yeah, it's like death in paradise, but except real and more tragic. And sad, yeah. But it's very interesting. That was a terrific collection of stories there. Very romantic and morbid.

Thank you. And some little gardening tips as well. Yeah, some good gardening tips. Some of everyone. Some harmless pranks for your loved ones. Some fun pranks. Not murdering and decapitating people, the pranks. The prank section was clearly, clearly delineated.

Yes. So, James, you've heard Verity's tales. Many, moltot tale. I see. Of vases and basil. As they would say in Italy, probably. Oh, okay. Okay, he's getting very Mediterranean.

That boat's well. For the scores, James. Let's get some of that. It's broad-minded, relaxed, olive oil, margarine life. Olivia, is that the brand I'm thinking of? Probably. Yeah, let's get a similar, I guess,

a little bit of Olivia on a piece of bread, chomp it down, and pass judgment on Verity's story. Yes. First category, Verity, I suggest, as you're returning, I suggest that you go with names. So names of the characters in these tales. Yes.

So we've had... Some good Italian names there, some fine names. Just some classics. We've had your Isabella. We've had your Lorenzo. Lorenzo. But Boccaccio, who we couldn't really name. Yes.

He was complicated. We've had, who else have we had for names? Millet. We had Millet. We've had Millet. You've got the PRB crew. Yeah, the PRB crew. Actually, in terms of naming, they've done quite well to have their boys club have a little moniker.

Yes. I like the DeCamron. Yes. As a name, I think that's good. Are there 10 stories in it? There are 10 stories and I think they're told by a group of children or they're told by a group of people to each other. So rather than sort of story by story, they take it in turns.

So lots of stories. And Griselda is the lady in that story who gets pranked a lot. That's a great name. I love of Griselda. But a suitably downtrodden name for a woman who spends two decades being pranked by her. husbandry. Yeah, like a sort of prank Job situation. Yeah, that's bad.

That is bad husbandry. Not, wait, wait, I think I've forgotten what husbandry is. It's very bad behaviour. And good name for the type of pottery that these vases are made out of, because they're all myolica pottery, which I always think is a very good word. That is a good word. Mayolica. That's funny.

Because it was often shipped through the island of Mallorca. Also, the name Basil is a name. And Basil, very funny, very funny herb, very funny name. And of course, pop. Lest we forget. Pop, yeah, exactly. So it's got a lot. None of them are hilarious.

So that's marking it down for me, but there's a lot of richness and variety. So I think I would go with a four. I wavered, but I went with four. Okay, he went with four. All right. All right. I think we've done pretty well there. Yeah, I'll take that.

It was a name, it was a name, a name poor tale. Well, our next category is probably going to be supernatural. Yeah. Have you got anything, anything in the bag there, Verity, for supernatural? Lorenzo does appear to Isabella in a dream from beyond the grave to be like, this is where they buried me. Yes. Oh, yes. Yeah, that's magic.

That's general wizardry. And I guess his, the heads of all these men live on in the vase. Yeah. Sort of giving life to that basil, sort of zombie basil. Supernaturally good basil. Yeah. Wow, this is really enlivened a pizza. It's to die for.

When was this? Was this pizza era Italy or was this pre-Pisa era Italy? Has there ever not been, was there a pre-Pisa era? Well, I think there was a margarita. for whom they were named. Margarita, yeah. And also, they have tomato on, don't they? So it must be after the discovery of the new world.

Well, they had tomatoes. Maybe that's the bigger sort of watershed moments. It needs a name. You know, BP, before pizza, I assume is what the Italians call that. And then there's the P, P.B, and they're Victorians who prefer back when it was before pizza. It was better before we had tomatoes. It's just true. Well, they had tomatoes.

just thought they were poisonous, I think. Oh, okay. Really? Yeah, because it was in a mandrake. No, the other one, not mandrake. What's that poison? The Phantom. Flash Gordon.

Mother of spills and illusion. I guess that would require us to categorize pizza as we know it today, or is pizza one of those things where it's like, as soon as you put one food on top of another, is that technically? Essentially, it's a toasty. Let's be honest. It's just toast with cheese on it, isn't it? It's an Italian Welsh rare bit.

Exactly. Italy could never. Also, but what Basil was considered sort of magical in the way that you had to cut it with a gold or a silver sickle because it was obviously some sort of divine thing. I was picturing get a fix from Asterix doing that. Absolutely, 100%. Just to be clear, we are both picturing Gettifix doing that.

So that's a little bit supernatural. isn't it? So love and devotion and a lot of reverence around Basil, which suggests something, something being up. I'll give it a two. I'll give it a two. All right, all right. The guy appeared in the dream is closest thing to a ghost.

That's pretty good. We're robbing him blind here. That is absolutely daylight robbery. You'd be very pleased with that, considering nothing supernatural. Yeah, no, very pleased with that. I'll take that. So our third category, and I'm taking a bit of credit for the story here, even though I didn't work on it at all, is two heads are better than one.

Ah, yes. Yeah, true, isn't it? Because they come, the vases come in pairs. Twice the basal. Yeah. Always come in pairs. It's all lovers, tiffs all right through. Exactly.

And also, you know, Verity did all that research, but I was also here. We're like we're a team. And so now we're both getting scores, even though I haven't done any work. So too, that's a better than one. But then. It's not like a group project at a level where one person. and just slacks off and gets the same grade. It's not like that.

It's a shame that Basil isn't grown in a head. You know, like a head of lettuce. Oh, yeah. It wouldn't that be good to be like it's a head in a head? Oh, yeah. But it isn't. But it's not. It's really leading me down the path of its two points, though.

Oh, no. Because it's one point for each. And I think you are right. I think I have overscored you. Oh, no. Like with the GCSEs, I could need to downmark some of these. Otherwise, the averages are going to be too high across the board. What?

I've been trying to, I've been looking at a list of herbs, trying to slip more herbs into conversation. All I can come up with is, are you chiving me? What the hell are you talking about, James? What the heck? Excuse my language, are you talking about? I can't belief this. Nice.

Yeah. I didn't see that one coming, but I was quite pleased with that. And that's five, so someone might have a line in Herb Bingo. The game that I established very clearly at the start, Herb Bingo. Yes. Yeah. So are you really giving us two? Well, are you trying to make a deal?

A deal. Like I said deal. A deal. A deal. Oh, very good. Very good. I guess there were a lot of stories. Mm-hmm.

And so there was quite a lot of, you were getting a two for one. But you sort of got a three or four for one at least. Yeah. You're in a bog-off scenario, James. So I reckon for that value. I'll push it to a three, but that's as far as I'm going. All right, all right. Quantity over quality is what I've been going with my whole life.

Think how short the book would have been. Honestly. All right. I think we did quite well there, really. Final category. Verity is too shy to admit that she came up with this really. really good category. And so she asked if I could present it as if I had thought of this category. Oh, go on. But as soon as you hear it, you're going to be blown away with how good and not at all

tenuous it is. The name of the category is, is it Basil Faulty? No, it's Man Unwell. Do I need a pen and paper for this one? I have to listen to the whole thing all the way through. Is it Basil Faulty? No. So it's the Basil Faulty, F-A-U-L-T-Y? Is the Basel-F-E-L-Y? Right. There's two people in the The first is asking, is the Basel faulty? And then the second... Hasim gone wrong. Fellow asks, yeah.

A reasonable question, any gardener might ask. Is this basil faulty? Yeah. And then his friend, person two, replies, it could be a man or a woman. Or a non-binary gardener. It's not important. Or a puppet.

Then Bob. And then the other person says, no, it's man unwell. Because a man or what? Because he has been decapitated. And also because Manuel from Faulty Towers. Yeah, so it's just a neat piece of wordplay that I think very pleased with coming up with.

Well done, Verity. Yes, well done. I think people will be rushing out to buy the book just based on the quality of that writing. I think people will be massively surprised to hear that I came up without having not ever seen Faulty Towers. You haven't seen Faulty Towers? Oh, it's the pub of sitcoms.

Well, I'm on it. I'm straight on it afterwards. No, it was a very good, it was an admirable, an admirable punt from Alastair. If any sounds came across there I fell off my chair a little bit while talking

I fell onto the Disney critic What's that? If only it With that tuneful If only So James What is it for this category? There's no need to say the name of it again

No there isn't It's put in A horrible picture in my head That Pop has now Just become quite a mean old man, a mean old puppet. There's tweeting nasty things.

I don't even know what it means, but there was definitely some gardening tips in this. There were, a lot of gardening tips, yeah. If you're very, very kind, you could look at Faulty Towers and think that Basil and Manuel were pranking each other in their relationship. They definitely had an awkward relationship, which ties back to some of the difficult relationships that people had in this. Mm-hmm. Lots of back, like all of them featured a majorly unwell, a proper poorly man.

Yeah, yeah. And, and Basil. Mm-hmm. And a lot of the decapitators were not well. They're not making decisions in their right mind, I would suggest. The lady that wanted to keep her lover with them and, you know, by decapitated them and popping their head in a plant pot. It's not good. My first instinct there was like, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

I think that's fine. My instinct was like, who are you talking about? I'm sure the women doing the decapitating, sure. She, yeah, but she got some great basil. That puzzle was not faulty. Yeah, James, sorry, on this podcast, we support women, okay? All right. Right to decapitate.

It's more than just the idea, thinking that was the same as having an alive person. I think also that the title of this category probably requires quite a lot of high as do the pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood, as do sort of have little little initials for things. I think it was quite coded as our sort of hidden sexy messages about Basil, as are the PRB. Yes. And I've noticed as well where I've written the title of this category down, there is a willy in it. There's a shadow of a willie. And I'm going to kick a dog.

So I think I am going to give you five because that is that sort of tenuous wordplay should be rewarded. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It does feel a bit like a pity five, but we'll take it. Pity five to five. Fives is five. There's not going to be an asterix on the spreadsheet

unless whoever makes the spreadsheet puts an asterisk on there. I mean, just because I know the kind of pedants who do this, he meant asterisk, but I am going to, ask that you actually put an asterix, if possible. Ideally, asterix the goal. Oh, man. Have you been saying asterix? I'm quite old to be finding that out, Alistair.

So it's just the left. I think I'd rather lived in ignorance. Okay. You know, at the end of like a film with a twist in it, and they're like flashing back to all the things. Oh, no. How many footnotes has this man made a lot? He has made a lot of in-person footnotes.

Oh no. I'm sorry. I was trying to protect you from the, from the, you know, the bitter, sharp, the tuperative tongues of the spreadsheet makers. The spreadsheet gang. Oh, dear. Oh, no. Oh, well.

Well, that's, what a sad ending to the podcast. I'm really sorry. I'm really sorry. I'm shaking now. I don't want to reuse my catchphrase. I'm sorry, I ruined that with pedantry, but I think it has happened again. That being my life and memory. phrase.

Verity, thank you for being a deputy law person this evening. Thank you very much. What was the name of your book? Well, thank you for having me. The book is called The History of Art in One Sentence. And it's available in bookshops and online. And it's got lots of good illustrations by the lovely Alexandra Ramirez. And it's only mildly rude.

There are only a few swear words in it. So it's probably suitable for teens-ish. Cool. It's suitable for cool teens. Cool teens. Ask yourself, are you cool enough to read this book, teens? You are listening to a folklore podcast.

Maybe not. Cool teens and everyone above. But yes. And you can spot it on the shelves. So is that people who are cool teens and people who are cooler than teenagers? Yes. Not older necessarily. But only teens.

There's a strict cut off. You cannot have seen Pop and read it. it's not for you. But yes, you're spotted on the shelves. It's bright orange because the publishers were like, there are hardly any bright orange books will make this bright orange,

but then every publisher in the world had that idea last autumn, so there are a lot of bright orange books. But it is one of the few bright orange books in the art section. Lovely. Nice one. Thank you very much. Thank you so much, Verity.

Oh, thanks for having me. That was so much fun. Thank you. Well, I hope you all go out and immediately buy Verite's book. Yes, and some Basel. And James, if people have finished flirting with Basil and buying books, how can people support the podcast? They could go to patreon.com forward slash lawmen pod,

and they would get access to some behind the scenes or outtakes, bits and bobs, a few random bonus episodes of things, and they get access to the Lawfolk Discord. Oh. And thank you very much. people that already do support us actually. You know what? If people want to support us without giving us money, that's okay as well.

You know, we do accept good reviews, don't we? Yes, we love them. Especially if they're five stars. Maybe mandatory, really. Mandatory, five. It's actually illegal to give us less than that, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like an EU thing.

I fell off my chair. If any sounds came across there, I fell off my chair a little bit while talking. I fell onto the Disney critic. What's that? If only it would that tuneful. If only.