Loremen Podcast - Loremen S7Ep21 - Doodles in the Dark with Dave Green

Episode Date: June 18, 2026

Hey, Lorefolk! We have a bona fide dream-weaver for you this week! Comedian turned lucid dreamer, Dave Green joins the Loreboys to tell us about his nocturnal adventures. Apologies for the background builder noise and mic issues this ep is beset by. Recording it was, ironically, a bit of a nightmare. Buy Dave's new book! ⁠Doodles in the Dark: an artist's guide to lucid dreaming And come see us in Oxford! ⁠⁠⁠July 1st 2026 (2026)⁠⁠⁠ Edited by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Laurence Hisee⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Join the LoreFolk at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠patreon.com/loremenpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ko-fi.com/loremen⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Check the sweet, sweet merch here... ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.teepublic.com/stores/loremen-podcast?ref_id=24631⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ @loremenpod ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠youtube.com/loremenpodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.instagram.com/loremenpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.facebook.com/loremenpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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With me, Alastair Beckett King. And me, James Shakeshaft. And James, get ready to welcome a new friend of the podcast, but an old friend of ours. Yeah. It's comedian turned actual wizard, Dave Green. Oh, yes. I was really looking forward to. recording this episode and it did not disappoint.

Get ready for some prophetic dreams with Dave Green. It's not, it's Dave Green. We're entering the dreamiverse. Hey there, James Shakeshaft. What's that you're strolling down? Memory Lane. It is Memory Lane. Oh, thank goodness.

I'm surprised, frankly, that you got where I was going with that. I thought I recognized it. On the same page. But today, wow. Okay, well that bodes well. I got a deputy guest law person for you, James, and I probably met him in the exact same room, literally room that I met you in.

Yes. What room would that have been? Speed dating. No. No. No. No. It would have been the...

It would have been in Stockwell in London. Yes, in the back room of the Cavendish Arms. Cav, of course. The revoltingly named Comedy Virgins. Yes. Please welcome Deputy Lawperson, Dave Green. Hello, Dave.

Hello, how you doing? Dave, I met you at an open-mic comedy gig, not just an open-mic comedy gig, my first ever comedy gig. That was when I met you. You're actually right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In 1972, all was years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Did you win the Cav that night, Alistair? Well, I mean, I don't really remember that. Yes, I did, yeah. Did you, I think, maybe I was there as well then. David won the week before. Were you there as well? Because David won the week before. So you were there doing the,

as a returning champion, doing, I was I? Okay. The high pressure, maybe seven minutes spot instead of everyone else, doing five, and you came back to do seven.

Yeah. No, I remember you being, I didn't realize it was your first ever gig. And now you say that, yeah, that rings. I remember it,

yeah, being, I was like, wow, this guy. So I've not been doing it alone. He's like, so good.

And now, yeah, it was your first gig, crazy. Wow. It was my first gig And you were very nice And the nice thing about doing

Open mic comedy is You meet lots of interesting people And then in 10 years time Most of them have either written a book Or got a show on GB News It can go one way or the other 10th drum roll Dave, you've written a book

Few Yeah, yeah, few Yes, I have I've got I happen to have it here Yes, it's the No way Wow, just like that.

Yeah, so it's, yeah, as you guys kind of know, I guess, might have seen online. I've done, I took the weird career change of going from doing stand-up comedy to doing making art around lucid dreams. Yeah, yeah, that's the natural. It's not on the come, a white nationalist, and I'm really glad you went with lucid dreams. Yeah, it can go either way. But, yeah, I think, yeah, I always used to say if the comedy, I used to like Jogler if the comedy doesn't work out. I've got art degree to fall back on now. I know.

I've ended up literally doing that. You actually have made it work and become a lucid dreaming artist. Because normally on this podcast, we talk about sort of weird supernatural oddities from the past. But you, yourself, are a supernatural oddity. Exactly. I'm a supernatural oddity. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's sort of a weird.

Yeah, I think this is funny because, like, yeah, as I say, I've gone from like stand-up comedian and kind of like now kind of gone in this totally different angle. But this is the first like comedy podcast I've done. I've done lots of podcasts. Everything else is really serious. Exactly, yes. And yeah, that world, the sort of, I mean, I have a kind of fairly conservative take on it. But as you'd imagine, like the lucid dreaming is like the sort of eco-informational ecosystem.

It's in some of it's quite strange. I imagine the lucid dreaming community is a lot of fun. Should we just double-check that everyone on this call knows what we mean by lucid dreaming? That's a great point, James. Because we wouldn't want anyone to sort of feel left out and not know. Yeah, yeah. I'm just thinking about the audience here. Definitely, definitely.

That's really thoughtful of you, James. Yeah, Lisa. I don't know what it is. What is stand-up comedy, open mic? And what is lucid dreaming? Yeah, I do. What is a good friend? What is the cav?

They're all very difficult concepts. But to start with lucid dreaming, it's a, yeah, a lucid dream is a dream where you're aware of the fact you're dreaming. Some people tack on to that that you can then control the dream and choose what to do within the dream, okay? Is that not inherent then? Is that I always assumed that was part of part and parcel of the same thing. James, have you always been lucid dreaming? Can you control all your dreams? dreams. Well, actually, no.

And the thoughts of the people. I can remember the occasions when I have realized I've been dreaming. Oh. And I've attempted to control my dreams. And however, my wife claims that she always knows when she's dreaming. And my youngest child also claims that he always knows when he's dreaming. So I'm like, well, go flying then. Yeah.

Of course I go flying immediately. It was inherent. but from what you said before it implies that it isn't necessarily the case. That's just, I'm just like really nitpicking there. Like, if you want to get real technical about it, like you could have a dream where you know you're dreaming but not control it and it still counts as a lucid dream.

So yeah, you think for all intents to purposes. That's just like life, isn't it? You're completely not in control, but you're aware that it's happening. You just like, well, currently nothing I can do about this situation. but I am not conscious of it. Exactly, yeah. I mean, the control bit is the people, that's why people learn to do it.

That's the bit they're interested in. But if you wanted to nitpick, it's just a dream way you know you're dreaming. Yeah. But the control bit is where it gets interesting. I bumped into a gig, I think, when you were in the transition between a comedian and genuine wizard.

And you were, because you're a very low-key guy and your stand-up is very deadpan. Yeah. And you like that in real life. it's not a state's persona. And you said something like, yeah, no, you were very humble about it.

You said, I'm being studied because they think I might be psychic. And they just left it at that. Well, it was, what was, another sort of layer to that story? Did it turn out that you were psychic? Well, we'll get to that in a second, but another layer of that story. You want to save some good stuff. But the other layer of that, it was actually, it wasn't a gig. It was, um, that sitcom reading,

which was like, did have Astral Productions. and lucid dreaming in the script. And it was in a cold bookshop, if you remember. It wasn't in a cold bookshop. Exactly. So it was like another relation there. But anyway,

but no, I did that study. That was a while ago, like the whole study took a couple of years to do. And I should say, yeah, for people that don't know, lucid dreaming itself is not a,

it's not like a fringe area or controversial sort of area of science. But it rubs shoulders with other stuff that are, that is. And when I started doing it, I was like my whole modus operandi. It was like, let's do something that looks totally crazy. But it's like, on the initiator, but it's totally within the realm of mainstream science.

And I should say my whole schick, why I do is I have a lucid dream. And then in the reality of the dream, I pick up a dream pen and a dream piece of paper and make a drawing in the dream and then wake up and make a copy of it. So that's my shtick, so to speak. All my drawings are copies of drawings that I've created in dreams. And the last stage is essential because up until that point, you're just the laziest artist in the world. And then you do actually make a copy of it. You've got to make a copy of it.

Someone can't just pay you to have a dream about doing a painting for them. You do actually do the drawing at the end. And then I'm like, I forgot it. I forgot. Oh, yeah, I probably done some really good paintings that I forgot. But you will never see it. And of course, the originals aren't for sale because they only exist in my dreams, but all the copies. I wish they were.

If they were, they would go for a lot. But I hope one day that one will sort of just sort of transport itself into the physical. Yeah, if I didn't even need to do. That would be excellent. But anyway. But yeah, so I've done like collaborations with a few scientists who study dreams. And I get just gone in touch with various academics saying that this is what I'm doing. And I got in touch with someone, and to be honest, I didn't really do that much research into who she was.

And maybe not as much as I should have done. And it turns out she was like one of the world's leading experts in precognition, which is the supposed paranormal ability to see the future. From the film Minority Report. Yes, from the well-known popular Tom Cruise film. Pre-co. Yeah, exactly. What's Kate Deacon.

A pre-cog. Yeah, that is why I had in mind, yeah. Like, yeah, sitting in a big bath of milk, but she didn't, she didn't let me do it. PC gone mad. Exactly, exactly. Health and safety these days. They won't let you get in a big bath full of milk. You can on GV News, but you chose a different path.

Yeah, maybe one day I can combine that as well, who knows. But did the, get the... Just dreaming right wing dreams in a big bath of milk. We live in a curse. Scrubing your back with a lufus. Are you allowed to... to say what they did? Yeah, I mean,

yeah, it was the, so the experiment in a nutshell was me attempting. I had to see a photograph in a lucid dream, which would then be randomly

selected from a pool of like 500 photographs the next day and then sent to me, right? And then like my, I did that 10 times and my 10 drawings and the 10 target photographs were given to judges and they had to like

match them up and if they matched up at a rate above what you'd expect by chance it was suggest if the precognition would be present

and the results are way more like nuance there's not like it's like there's definitely something there definitely wasn't like

Britain's gone talent yeah exactly it's not like you're gonna win or lose no and the deck aren't involved they won there

not on this one but to sum it up it was like what was interesting about you there was a skeptic guy you might be no we might know him actually he's called chris french and he's always on like um he's on that uncanny podcast and he's always like the skeptic on tv where he's like well actually it could be this and um

anyway so he was like part of the experiment he wrote an article about it and in terms that because it's super long till i go into the property because it's all the statistics being in a nutshell like he said that the skeptics on the experiment came away like thinking oh there's not too much there to like shake our worldview, but the believers came away thinking, oh, there's a little bit of something there. That's interesting. So basically that's it. So in conclusion, you're slightly psychic.

Like a bit, maybe. If it's real, if it's real, you're a bit of it. Exactly. To quote the paper, it's quite a funny line, actually. So it says, there is weak but encouraging evidence. Hey, this sounds like my Chortle

review. To support the idea that Dave Green is a lucid, a precognitive lucid dreamer. So that, that's quite cool. And like, if you've got that, you're going to, James, you're going to, like, you're going to weigh that around. It does. That's exactly, yeah, that is exactly what the kind of feedback we got from the

calendar charms back in the day that encouraged us to keep going. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, it's like one of my old school reports. Anyway, but I'm sort of, I don't know, I'm, I'm skeptical about pretty much all the paranormal stuff. but now, but since someone did a study on me into precognition, I'm like, and like got kind of interesting results.

I'm like, okay, maybe that one's true. But I'm willing to admit it's just because someone made it about me. I'm like, okay, that one. But no, I am quite open to that particular one. It's interesting. Yeah, I was thinking of the astral projection one, which I've read about where they'd put people in a beds with a shelf above them with some numbers on it or something.

to say what was on the shelf but it wouldn't have been that well that's a guy called Charles Tart who did those experiments sour sour. Sour. Mr. Sour Tart. Quite the sour puss. Mr. Sourthard.

And that's yeah, that's like, yeah, that's a slightly different thing. But in my opinion it's, well, it's the same thing but sort of with a different interpretation put on it. Oh, do you think the astral projectors are actually just having lucid dreams where they imagine that they're leaving their body? Pretty much, yeah, in a nutshell.

There's a massive light debate. Am I just getting you in big trouble with the... It's very controversial. It's very... In my book, there's a whole chapter on that man, but it's very like... Yeah, it's very controversial. What's the book called? Because some of our listeners aren't psychic.

I forget that. So it's called Doodles in the Dark, an artist's guide to lucid dreaming. So there's a whole chapter in there about, is it an out-body experience or is it a lucid dream? It's my opinion that it's... I mean, the thing you've got to bear in mind, about that, it's a massive topic. But lots of the, because you can have an out-of-body experience like, I mean, people have them during times of trauma, like if there's like a, you know, during surgery or something,

they feel like they leave their body, look down at the surgery or in a car crash or something like that. But there are some people that intentionally induce out-of-body experiences or the occult interpretation is called astral projection. But it's worth bearing in mind the techniques they do to have out-of-body experiences or astral projection are identical to the techniques. People used to have lucid dream, lucid dreams, or a specific type of lucid dreaming,

called the wild lucid dream. But they just, with different words changed. So instead of your dream body, it's your astral body. So I'm like, if you want to believe they're two different things, you've got to think that one set of people following one set of instructions is astrally projecting, but the other set of people following a slightly different set of instructions is lucid dreaming. And to me, it just seems like they're obviously the same experience.

I'm ready to call it case closed. Case closed. No such thing as astral projection. Anyway, but it's way dear, goes way deeper than that. But yeah. Is it the difference between like laser quest and paintball? That's a better way of thing.

I wish I would have said that. They are the same laser question. The same one is just a clean version of paintball, isn't it? Yeah. It's like the urban, in the city future version. And then paintball is the outside. painful biker-growing infused version.

Well, no, because I think if a laser goes straight in your eyes, he will still blind you and you'd still say, I can he see? So it would be the same. You'd still need to report it to Jeff. Of course, Jeff, we need to hear. I'm absolutely fascinated by lucid dream and ever since I think I read about it

in probably the three investigators or something like that. This is a book series that James has brought up a number of times that no one else remembers the investigation. That's a dream. It was Alfred Hitchcock presents the three investigators. Yeah, of course.

Of course it was a kid's book by Alfred Hitchcock. Alfred Hitchcock was a character in the story as well. There were three kids who were child detectives and they lived in Hollywood and somehow became friends with Alfred Hitchcock who would give them cases to investigate. This is really irresponsible. Yeah, I don't know. I can't remember why he thought they would be good. but there would always be vaguely paranormal,

but then sort of Scooby-Doo style turn out to be something normal. But there was one, which I think was the mystery of the invisible dog, and the whole thing hinged on someone asshole projecting. That's just no dog. An invisible dog turned out. It's a dog.

It was a glass dog that was in a swimming pool. Of course. Spoilers. I mean, it's obvious when you think it's going to be a swimming pool. Yeah, Dean didn't fall Dave. He saw through that straight away. Well, it is a glass dog, so it's not surprising. I didn't make it done there.

The internal organs were also see-through, otherwise that's just a grotesque. That's an act of terror. But yes, so I know I've read some stuff about how to try to lucid dream. Broadly, it seems to be write down your dreams for long enough, and then you'll start realizing when you're doing them. have you got any sort of hints and or tips. Yeah, so that's...

I mean, obviously that is kind of the essence of the book, so you don't have to give away the whole sales pitch of the book, but if you could just sum it up for us so that we don't have to buy it now. It's funny you say that, because there's actually, there's only one chapter in the book that teaches you how to do it.

And like, when I was chang to, you know, my agent about writing the book, I was like, do we have to like, teach people how to do it? I was like, kind of just be a whole book about me and my dreams. And he's like, it's like, that might be a bit come across. It's a bit self-indulgent.

So anyway, I back down and now there's one chapter that teaches you how to do it. And the rest of the book is just about me and my weird dreams. But anyway, so it's, for me personally, I have them quite like naturally, which is also part of the reason why I don't talk about how to do them that much. So I mean, I know I'm aware of the techniques. And as James said, yeah, the main one is writing down your dreams. And then on top of that, you want to do something called reality testing, which is where you, which is actually quite fun, like regardless of whether it leads to a lucid dream or not. Yeah.

You basically take a moment out of your day every now and again to, yeah, just basically ask yourself whether or not you're dreaming and just sort of sounds kind of nuts, but just do sort of genuinely inquire, am I dreaming right now, sort of think, how did I get here today? Is this a dream? and then there's various different things you do on top of that, which sort of take advantage of the way that dreams behave very differently to waking life. For example, the most famous one is probably heard of it. People look at their watch, the digital watch. And that's because in a dream, everything's constantly changing, moving and changing. Whereas in waking life, that isn't happening.

So if you look at some text and then look away and look back in waking life, the text will stay the same. but if you do that in a dream, it will be scrambled or say something different. So again, the habit of doing that in waking life, especially when something unusual happens or dreamlike happens in your waking life, you go, that's strange, I'll do a reality check.

That habit makes us way into your dream life, then one day you'll be in a dream, you'll do that, and then that will trigger you to the fact you're dreaming, and from there the lucid dream starts. Just as a sort of a side word of warning, don't do it on things. I think it's Instagram because often you'll look at Instagram

be interested in the story that's there and then it all of a sudden refresh to something that is a good point. So don't use that's a little bit of this test. A guy I know David Byrne was doing that and he was looking at his beautiful wife

and his beautiful car. Oh yeah. And then he looked away, but when he looked back, he realized it wasn't his beautiful wife. I know. I don't actually know David Byrne. That was a lie.

In your dreams. I mean, that's got to be... Wouldn't it have been... If I was talking about a real person, Dave, wouldn't it have been creepy for me to have described how beautiful is... I think where's you going? Where's you going with this?

And then I remember the song. It's like when someone unnecessarily includes the race of someone in an anecdote, it's like, why are you... Is that going to be important? Yeah, the fact that this car is beautiful a better be coming back into this story. So Dave, obviously,

Now you live on the outer reaches of the human mind and what is possible. But you're from Twickenham. Is that right? That is correct. Is that not the same? Is it? Is it Twickenham? It's kind of on the outer reaches of what's possible.

If what's possible is London. That's true. It's southwest. Is it? It's West London. It is. Southwest, yeah. Southwest London.

It's pretty far out. It's pretty far out. It's famously 10 miles away from Epsom. That might come up like. Is it? Yeah, that's the first thing everyone thinks of I wouldn't think of Twickenham. I judge everywhere by its distance from Epsom.

Yeah, it's a universal constant, Epsom. I got to say, James has got a story from Twickenham. I couldn't find anything interesting about it. Maybe it's from Epsom. Sorry, of course. It's so obviously going to be from Epsom. I just discovered Eel Pie Island while trying to do tricking them research.

Are you, is this a well-known local hotspot, eel pie island? Is it an edible version of Wet Wipe Island? What is Wet Wipe Island? It's a fat bug that got loose. Sorry, I don't know the names of any, I don't know any fat bugs on a first-name basis. Wet Wipe Island. It's terribly damning that they had to name for fat-bugs. As far as I know, as far as I know it wasn't a fat-bug, but, you know, I don't know if I'm

investigate the origins of it. But it's, yeah, it's in the middle of the Thames. Oh. It's, yeah, just a bunch of pies floating around. Just an accretion of pies in the middle of the Thames. Right near, yeah, like near Twickenham High Street. And it is, when I was growing up, I don't know what it's like now, but it was like a private island people live on there.

You couldn't go, you couldn't go on there unless you live there. I've got to say the name, eel pie island, because I'm a northern island. Sometimes living in London as a northerner is all right. And every too often, you run into something like eel pie island. and it's like, just have some self-respects, London. Eel Pie Island. It's thick-width cocklings. Come on.

I don't know what you found in your little research about it. I mean, I'm no local historian. There used to be one association I have with it is it's, they used to be like a famous music venue there back in the 60s. Eel Pylund, it was called. Was it actually? Nice. Yeah, the Guardian referred to it as the true home of British R&B,

according to the Guardian. Eel Pie Island I think what struck me about it Yes it used to be like a boat yard Like a miniature Sea Yard And now there's a lot of artists there But in between it

It rocked in the 60s But one of the nice things about it Is in Twickenham There is a museum The Eel Pie Island Museum Very very well reviewed on TripAdvisor Eel Pie Island itself Much less good reviews

Than the museum dedicated There's no one-star reviews for the museum. It's all fours and fives. Is it the Yelpi Museum or the Twickenham Museum? I think it's the eel pie island. Hold on. I'm pressed it. Because my mum... Eelpiemuseum.com.

Oh, okay. Because my mum was working at a Twickenham Museum. Oh. Which is also right there. It's like right next to it. So, but apparently there's a new... I didn't know there was an ill pie one as well. Yeah, the reviews for eel pie island itself are... Well, Luke was very disappointed.

No eel pie. Sad face, says Luke. I rode all the way down from Hampton Court and was feeling a little peckish, so moored up at the apparently legendary eel pie island, hoping to fill my belly with some of the Thames finest eels in a nice rough puff pastry pie. And much to my horror, there was not a single pie cellar in sight. Because he made the mistake of not landing there in 1663. Just a random selection of middling to elderly people,

grumbling up and down at footpath, barely making eye contact with anybody. I decided I may as well explore, but I couldn't get further than the path, as it was all private and no entry, as if they don't even want any visitors, which I think is literally the case. Yeah, it's not. I would definitely not be returning any time soon. It is a private island. They don't. It's like arriving at someone's house and then demanding pie from them. It's like, you don't even want me here.

Just because they called it Pie House. If you buy a house, it's like they didn't. They made no. offer to sell you pie, Luke. But apparently they do do the open house thing where you can visit the artist studios, which does sound very cool, actually. You ride on the wrong day, Luke.

Yeah. When you said road down, I thought a bicycle first of all. Oh, sorry, road. He rode. He rode his boat. He rode, unless, or it might, what would you do on a pedal? I think you pedal. You don't ride a pedal.

Do you count? Could you count in a pedalow? You could, as long as your co-pedalor was of a weaker disposition than you, I think. Otherwise, you could be facing mutiny. I've mostly only pedoloed in recent times with my children, and I have an ongoing agreement, because they were very worried that the pedalow would flip, and I have an ongoing agreement.

Is that because your legs are nine times longer than their legs? It just goes in circles, very tight circles. You simply don't know how not to go at full speed, even though there's a tiny child. I basically do donuts in a pedal. Come on going. You have to learn. You have to learn, children.

If you want to go straight, get longer legs. I have an ongoing agreement that if they are in a pedolo that flips, I will pay them £1,000. That's how much I don't think it will flip. Twicken them. Or more specifically, I have a feeling, James, your story is actually from Emson. Well, I was looking around. in Friend of the Show, The Law of the Land book, and I looked up in the index dreams,

because I figured that would be very appropriate for today's guest, Dave Green, Dreamweaver. Is that what your business card says? I haven't used that yet, but I will now, obviously. That's really, that's good, yeah. And there is. And also the card, we're like, Dave, could you give me a card? And you're like, look in your wallet.

What? Look under your bag. I'll give it you tonight in your dream. Are you in cahoots with the tooth fairy? That's not a bad idea. Maybe we should do an Instagram co-lab. Also the Sandman. You said that like it's a surname.

Yeah, Mr. Sandman. Yeah, that's just one of your neighbours. I've turned up at Mr. Sandman's house and there was no sand at all. It's almost like he didn't want me to be there. One star. It's just a name, Luke. I have a story from famously 10 miles away from Twickenham's Epsom. Oh yeah?

Where in November 1779, Thomas Lord Littleton, also known as Wicked Lord Littleton or Bad Lord Littleton, died. That is how I scold a dog. I think it makes him sound bad Lord Littleton, makes it sound like he's like nipping at someone's heels or jumping up and licking someone in the face. Bad Lord Littleton. I think the stories about him, it's like, yeah, he sounds like when your dog is just humping everyone's leg. Oh, right.

He's that sort of bad Lord Littleton. Very bad. Chill out for a second, mate. You're supposed to be an MP. Oh, he's one of those, one of those sorts of MPs. Yeah, he lived in Pitt Place in Epsom. Don't look for it. It was demolished in the 1960s.

and he had a vision of his own death in the format of a dream. A precognitive dream. Yes, exactly that. Exactly that. It was documented by Admiral Walsley in also friend of the show, The Gentleman's Magazine. Oh, great, great magazine, the Gentleman's Magazine. In 1816, this was recorded. There's two versions of the story both publish in the gentleman's magazine.

One of them, I'd say he's more fun than the other, but they both got elements that are fun. So I'm going to tell you the less fun one first, and then I'll tell you the more fun one. So what happened? Thomas Lord Littleton, bad Lord Littleton, did often suffer from several suffocating fits. People think he may have had asthma or something like that. He suffered from several suffocating fits. He suffered from several suffocating fits. Wow. Well, seducing the...

Some people, spinsters. Seducing several spinsters, yeah. Seducing several susceptible spinsters. Oh, yes. Lovely stuff. So he was in his London house in Berkeley or Berkeley Square, and he dreamt that he saw a bird fluttering into the room. Some reports say a Robin, which is an omen of death, apparently.

Flutter, flutter, flutter, flutter. That was their crew. Robin is an old... So we're sending Christmas cards with the omens of death. Yeah. So that's Robin on a postbox. And then a woman appeared in white apparel and said,

Prepare to die. You will not exist three days. So that scared him. And he called his servant. And the servant found him much agitated and in a profuse perspiration. And it had a visible effect the next day on his spirits. but on the third day whilst at breakfast

Littleton said I have jockeyed the ghost for this is the third day now. Good, yeah, great. Yeah, now is the time, I think. Yeah, get really hubristic about it at breakfast.

Not the third day. It's like, I think that ghost was talking a lot of rubbish. I feel great today. Give me, just give me that egg. Don't even crack it. I'm just going to serve it. straight in.

Don't cook it. Don't even cook it. Sam, and they can't kill you in a day. They all set off for Pit Place in Epsom. Yes, the one 10 miles away from Twickenham. And they arrived. He had another one of his suffocating fits,

but recovered. They dined at five, and he retired to bed at 11. And his servant, who was going to give him his little before-bed drink of rhubarb and mint water, stirred it with a toothpick. And Lord Littleton called him a slovenly dog and bit him bring a spoon.

And then when the servant came back with that spoon, Littleton was mid-fit. And his pillow was too high and his chin was down on his chest. And the servant, rather than helping him, ran off to get some help. And when they returned, Littleton had died. So I think that was a moral. You can find a moral in there if you want. Yeah, the servant ran off to clean all the silverware. and then came back and sadly he had died.

Yes. So within the three days as per the dream's prediction. Slightly more fun version, still involves death, don't worry. Good, good. He had the same dream, you know, the bird, although actually the bird isn't mentioned, but a visionary woman, one of the most angelic female figures

that imagination could possibly paint, specified that he would die at the hour of 12 on the third day. So his friends, you know, he's got his friends about him. They think, oh, we're going to, you know, let's boost his spirits. We will change all the clocks without telling him. So they set all the clocks forward, half an hour, which if you've ever dealt with time zones, is a classic mistake. They probably should have set them back half an hour because he, because they set them forward, his clock says 12 is actually half 11.

He's like, I'm fine. I'll go to bed, goes to bed. dies half an hour later at the stroke of midnight. In fact, at that stroke of midnight, and he goes to bed and saying, this mysterious lady is not a true prophetess I find, and then dies. That is a good.

I've read a lot about precognitive dreams, but I haven't heard that one. That's quite a good one. Have you ever had a scary lucid dream, Dave? Have you ever been unsettled by one of your excursions into the world of the somnam I can't think

of a synonym for dream yeah tell me about writing a book about dreams is so hard for that reason

the only one I could come up with yeah because there's no synonyms for dreams are so repetitive the only one is nocturnal reveries

oh dear that's too sexy I'm much I said that rather book because there's no synonyms for dream

it's just dream anyway I'm glad it's not just me yeah so what's I going to say But funny enough, I'm just remembering now in terms of like scary lucid dreams. In the book, I do some like goofy kind of stuff where I write about the history of artists working with dreams.

And I do some kind of just sort of silly exercises where I meet sort of famous artists. Like I pick up, I find Salvador Dali's lobster telephone, which obviously is a famous, like, surrealist artwork, like a dreamy artwork. So I find that in the dream, and I pick up the lobster and listen to it to see where it says. It said that happened to say, Louise Butler Jin. It's never anything that necessarily makes any sense. But the reason why this is relevant is I forgot about this when James first put it up, but I actually says that famous painting by Henri Fusely with the,

so it's the woman laying in bed, and there's like basically like a demon on her chest. and like a weird looking horse in the background. So it's meant to be a famous... Oh, I forget. You always forget about the horse. It's the scariest bit. Hold on. So it's being photobonged by a horse.

Exactly, yeah. It's just called the nightmare. Okay, I'm going to look for the horse. Anyway, but one of the things I did in the bill where I'm talking about sleep paralysis, I went into a lucid dream and I met that demon on that chest. And then I gave him a pen and paper and asked him to do a drawing.

What's the sort of wish? Well, I took it was fun. I tell you what's funny, because it made me think, yeah, if I had a scary lucid dream. Occasionally, most of the time they're quite nice, but it made me think of that one because I, again, different to the lots of people in the lucid dream world, I don't sort of believe it's possible to sort of meet an actual demon in my dreams necessarily. But I feel it be a funny idea to do that. But even if you don't believe that's possible, I sort of surprised myself because I was like, I sort of go to bed with my task in mind. And I was like, actually, you know, I am actually quite scared of doing this. I don't want to, you know, I was trying to look a bit of lucid dream satire.

Let's meet this demon. And then I was like, I'm actually quite nervous about doing that. So you know what I did? Why I thought, because I still really wanted to do it because I thought it would be a fun idea. So what I did is in my dream, because they usually take place in my house, I thought, right, I'm going to meet that demon from the painting. But he's going to be behind a door. And he's just going to slip the drawing under the door that way.

I don't have to look at him. Okay. All right. So he gave me the drawing. And then I opened the door after I'd go a bit of courage, because I was, I was quite, during you did there and he looked like a weird it kind of looked like a monster

but it's made out of plasticine and I was like that ain't that scary actually so it's all right I look like something like a yeah like when the monster was revealed in an old Doctor Who

yeah and like they thought that quite a lot but yeah so right and it kind of ran away actually because it sort of scuttled away

I think the the biggest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing Dave Green he was simply morphed just a pretty much

or that other one Morph's mate. Morph's white mate. Oh, yeah, yeah. I haven't thought about a move for a while. So, Alistair, are you ready to score this thing? I think I am ready to score. Yeah, I'm ready to judge Dave and also, by extension, Southwest London.

And also, can I remind you, if you score this well enough, it could end up on the cover of the book. Five stars, Norman podcast. I mean, I clearly the book has already been printed. Dave already showed us the book. There's always the paper book. All right, yeah, okay, I'm going to try and do, you know, when they do like reviews for musicals that you see on the London Underground and they do a pun and it's like, you're just trying to get on the poster now. You're not reviewing it. You're just trying to get quoted.

It's pathetic. I'm going to do that. I'm going to be the daily mirror. Dare to dream, this is a great book. That sounds again like fake praise, doesn't it? What, to imagine that it might be a great book. Yeah, dare to dream, this is a wonderful book. That isn't a good review.

Someone reviewed it on Amazon saying it's the dream book. A bit obvious. The dream book. That's nice. Their dream book, very good. All right, yes, I'm ready to pass judgment. Okay, first up, naming. Naming.

Naming. Well, I brought Eel Pie Island to the table, and I'm very happy that I did because it's a great name. It is a great, for everyone apart from Luke. Yeah, it's slightly misleading, but still a good name. What was the MP's name? Bad Lord Littleton. Bad Lord Littleton. And Lord is not his middle name.

That's his status. It's a title. It's a title. It's a title. Sir Thomas. Pit Place. Pit Place. The Gentleman's magazine.

As in the elder, was that? Or the younger? Is that the pit in question? I don't know. Could be Brad. Could be Brad. Could be Brad. Yeah, there was Admiral Woolsey.

And Miles Andrews. Or some of the poshest names. Yeah, very posh. Apart from Eel Pie Island, it's some of the poshous names. If it'd been called 10 Miles Andrews. that would have been more thematic. Yes, that would fit in. Unless you can find nine more of them.

Dave, what's the title of your book? Surely, surely the title of your book is... Doodles in the Dark, an artist's guide to lucid dreaming. It's got a subtitle there. There's two very good names there. That's got to be five out of five. Well, it would be insulting today for it to be less than five out of five. But at the same time, the integrity of the show requires me not to give it five out of

because overall the names haven't been that good. Would you accept a four out of five for names? And most of that is because I like Dave and I like his book. I want to be on the cover of the book, Alistair. All right, okay. Come on. If we're trying to get, okay. Yeah, all right.

Five out of five, a dream boat. Is this all meant to go on the cover? Yeah, all right, five out of five. Dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot. I think it's weird. None of the other quotes have, like, I'm not really using a star system, so I don't know if I can use it anyway. So don't worry too much. You know, they're using the star system.

And I gave it five out of five, and I lost my integrity, which has thus far been intact. Wow. Outrageous. All right. What's the next category? Second category. It's supernatural. Well, well, I don't know if we should ask.

There is weak evidence that Dave Green, there's weak but encouraging evidence that Dave Green has. has psychic powers, which is 100% more psychic powers than any guest has previously been demonstrated to have. I think Bethan from Erie Essex has seen a fairy. So that's quite spooky. But I don't think we've had anybody else actually predict the future before with weak accuracy. So that's pretty super natural.

That ain't natural. Yeah. No, it ain't natural. Dave Green ain't natural, five stars. I like that. I actually like that. This kid ain't right. Five stars, yes.

Yeah, no. And the stories you tell, obviously, the second, clearly much faker version of it is more exciting. Yes. But yeah.

But he predicted his own death. Or a bird slash, also a woman, predicted his death. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, now it's five out of five

for supernatural. How could I argue? Third cat. Hugh Briss. Hugh Briss. Hugh Briss. Yeah, hubris.

Hugh Briss. The cockiest man. Westland and Giza, hubris. Yeah. Real hubris on the part of Tomothy Lady Littleton. What was this? Timmy, Tommy, James.

Thomas Lord Littleton. Bad Lord Littleton. Bad Lord Littleton. Yeah, I think, calling it at breakfast, clearly a mistake, clearly an error. I even calling it only as far as he knew, 15 minutes past the time, it should have happened.

Absolutely. It still would be a little bit like what time zone were they in when they did this dream? Yeah, exactly. And he could be... And he could have his friends to sort of think you can have a little sort of laugh around this guy. Obviously, that's quite a serious asthma. Do you think they did it on purpose the wrong way? Because he did sound annoying.

Like he had to go at his servants. for stirring it with a... He caught his servant a slovenly dog in one version shortly before he really needed a servant to save his life. Yeah, yeah, that's a big, very hubrisic act, I think. And if you don't mind me saying, David, to think one can control the dream wet realm? Well, I mean, was Dave not inviting eternal damnation

when he invited that plasticine demon into his dream? Plasticine demon sound like a great band. Yes, definitely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hubris and the plasticine demons. Oh, yeah. Rocking out on Hill Pie Island.

Everyone except Luke, welcome. Yes, it's very hubristic. Yes. But you seem so confident when you suggested the category, James. Yes. I feel like I have to score it low just to teach you a lesson in hubris. Yeah.

You look in the mirror, James. And who, hubris? Hugh stares back at me. Yeah, exactly. So I'm going to give it a three for hubris, even though it's actually very hubristic. I feel like I've been hoist by my own partard. Should we do the fourth category then? Let's do the fourth and final category.

What is it? Dream zone. Yes. You said it with real tombra there. Dreams. The dream zone. The dream zone. Yeah, well, it's where.

Potsworth and Company Hang out is the dream zone It's the place to stay It's the place to be I think Ah Ah 30 years of hurt

Visit but don't stay 40 years of hurt That's where Dave spends half his time That's weird Is that your job then To be asleep Yeah I do joke about that With my partner quite a lot

Oh God Got stuff to do Yeah it's a bit like that Yeah It's just there with one of those floppy hats that Scrooge has, being like, off to work, off to work, darling.

Only a candlestick. Is it not restful? It depends. It depends what you're doing with it. It's like anything. It depends how you approach it. But during the course of writing that book, I actually I literally signed a contract saying there would be 80 new

artworks in the book, which meant 80 lucid dreams. So I was With the demon, with the demon behind the door, you sign this contract. You know people in the publishing industry, do you, James? I think the idea of being contractually tied into having a certain number of dreams. I don't know how many people have been in that position, but I feel like it's not many.

Maybe some sort of dream advising. Yeah, that's really. But, yeah. That's great because it's going to be very hard for the publisher to be. enforce that and prove that you have had fewer than 80 lucid dreams. Unless they also, astro projected into your dream and just sat there sort of tapping their watch. Lucid auditing. Just hanging around.

I wondered about that. I thought it works for a shet. No, absolutely. It's got to be a high school for Dream Zone. It all took place in the Dream Zone. But I feel like, inspired by your artwork, Dave, and the tradition of dreams-inspiring art. I feel like I can't just give it one of the numbers from one to five. Oh, I see.

It's too obvious. You know, because if I did give it a number, when you look back, it will be a different number. We do need to, yeah, look back at the scores and check that they are all fives across the board, right? Exactly. Let's just pinch ourselves. So I'm going to say. You're going to give us a five and then we look back and it's, no, give us the three and then we look back and it's a five. Well, that would be nice.

That would be nice for you. But I'm going to say it's probably like a raven out of five. What does it mean? a white raven out of five. That's quite worrying. Yeah. Not a good sign. But a high score.

You know, it could have been a wren or a budgie. A dangerous Robin. Yeah, or famously Robbins, of course, of the death, apparently. So there you go. A very high score. Perfect. Good luck getting a white raven into the calculations for the spreadsheet.

Since the listeners announced that they were keeping a spreadsheet up to date, I think every episode we've given them a curveball. Yep, yes, we have. That's what is basically a GIF that they need to insert in the cell. Dave, thank you for being a guest deputy law person. You can return your gun and badge, which we forgot to pretend to give you at the start. Thank you very much. You're off the case now, on I?

Go back to being a freelance vigilante. your own right. But remind us, what's that book? Where can people get it? What's it about? Why should they read it in a pithy sense of scope? So the book is called Doodles in the Dark, an artist's guide to lucid dreaming. And yeah, it kind of does what it says on the tin. It's a guide to the weird and wonderful world of lucid dreaming, all told through my strange experiences and these unusual drawings that I create in my lucid dreams. And your drawings, are very distinctive. If people haven't seen them,

they're very sort of, very graphical. I don't know what medium you use, but it's very sort of black and white and very line-based. They are kind of, not exactly cartoonish, but kind of,

I don't know, they all look mystical. They all look like a mystical sigil to me. Yeah, it's a paint pen. So it's like what kids use to like graffiti on bus stops. Like a thick marker,

basically, but yeah, they're quite graphical, quite pictorial. I like to think they're pretty different from what most other people do when they're making art from dreams, you know? It's not necessarily like what you'd imagine.

Yeah, I think you, you tend to imagine that the 1970s things, like the swan that becomes the the sea and those popular surreal paintings and daly and stuff where it's all sort of surrealist. Yeah, I've kind of self-consciously tried to, yeah, sort of make it look a bit different, yeah. It's lovely. Also, I've come up with some alternative, like, alternative topics for books.

based off the same meter as Doodles in the Dark. You could have one about dogs, poodles in the park. It's the sequel. I've got to think of a follow-up, so that's not bad. Yeah, but a changing direction, but yeah. And a biblical epic oodles in the ark, which is about how many animals. Dude, I love that, actually, I love that.

Yeah, that's very good. Yeah, there's a big, big market for Christian books. And, of course, noodles, give me a sec, noodles in the narque which is about the eating habits of narcotics

police. Oh, let's see. Oh, very good. Yeah, very good. Yeah, very good. It was weak, but it shows promise. Thank you so much, Dave.

Yes, thank you very much, Dave. It's quite fun, man. Now that, Alistair, was better, to my mind, than the film Inception. Yes, but to be fair, most things are. Check out Dave Green's Doodles in the Dark. Mm-hmm. And if you also enjoyed this podcast, you can support us. Yes, at patreon.com forward slash lawmenpod.

Oh, and also, if you enjoy hearing us, I would like to see our faces move when you hear us, You could come to Oxford and see us live on the 1st of July, 26. We'll put a link in the notes for that. That'll be lovely to see you. It's a really nice venue. I'm just going to run to the Lou and get a power cord. I already did get a drink of water because I wasn't wasting everyone's time like Dave and James are.

So I guess I'll just sit here with my water. Just in case that sounded since. I was joking there. I'm actually not annoyed.