Loremen Podcast - Loremen S7Ep31 - Witches of London with Nikki Druce

Episode Date: August 27, 2026

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Real Canadian Superstore has everything you need this back-to-school season. Save on lunchbox savers like Ziggy's sliced deli-meat products for always $3.75. And get Life Brand Pure Vita shampoo or conditioner for $8 each. At Real Canadian Superstore, when you're ready, we're ready, with a whole world and more. Wayfair's Labor Day clearance is on now. Right now at Wayfair, you can get up to 70% off everything home. Shop Wayfair's Labor Day clearance now through September 7th at Wayfair.ca. Welcome to Lawmen, a podcast about local legends and obscure curiosities from Days of Yore.

With me, James Shakeshoft. And me, Alistair, we've got some London stuff for us this week. From Old London town. Old London town. Old London town. When Samadis was all fields, and it's brought to us by a special guest. It's Nicky Drews from Macab London and Killers Cults and Queens podcasts. And yeah, she's going to tell us some spooky stuff about Camden Town.

There better be at least two witches in this story. Potentially, even three. Oh. Hey, Alistair. Hey, James. I gave up on the whisper halfway through the first word I was whispering. We've had so many guests. We have, we have.

It's bad for the throat to whisper this much. Yes. I think the reason I think. think I need to whisper is because I think they can't hear me on this shared internet call that we're all on if I whisper. James, you're destroying the illusion of us all being in the same room with the guest veiled behind a velvet curtain. I'm not going to be here yet.

Right behind that curtain. What, do you know who is, but can I pull back the curtain? You can pull back the curtain and literally not literally. Figuratively and figuratively. Do it figuratively first and then literally if necessary. Can I do it theatrically? Yeah. Ideally, yes.

excellent. I've sort of jogged onto stage. I've got, now actually, I've jogged off to the wings to pull back back curtain because I'm going to do it theatrically. And do you know how I started that jog with a little skip because I'm a trained actor. Wow. Wow. Because Alistair today, we've got a guest and it is Nikki Druce, the host of Macabre London and Killers Cults and Queens and producer of the Scarred Pod, Scar for Life pod. I mean, I said it at the start. So I'm going to say it again, it's Nikki Drews. That's three things, Nikki. That is three things.

That's at least three things. I mean, James said one of them twice, I think, so I was a bit confused. But, wow. That would make it four things. Yeah, that's four things. But no, it is three things. That's an ever-escalating number of things. Welcome, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. I feel like I should have whispered as well, but we're in. We're just talking about. If don't get James into a whispering group, we'll be whispering for hours. Whispering James, they call him. Yeah. Oh, I wish he'd whispered James.

Doing a voice, James. Yeah. Oh, no, you're part of that conspiracy theory. I was the one that wrote the email. That was me. There's the other, aside from the people that think I'm doing a voice, which we basically guessed probably quite correctly, that that anonymous feedback was about me.

There are the other people. Yeah, I don't think anybody thinks I'm doing a voice. But people think we're, in essence, doing each other's voices. That's so weird. Imagine my, imagine your voice coming out of my head. We should do a video, though, where we mime along to each other to just see what it would be like. It would be weird. It would be weird. I just did the mime if it would be weird. It would be weird. And I'll do you. It would be weird. It will be weird. There we go. Sorry, it's not a court. It's not around. It's not in the round. It's just called. And also, we're not recording the video to this. So that was a complete waste of time.

Oh, yes. Audio only. I just play it at a different time, so that all sound. Perfect. But Nikki, thank you very much for coming along and joining us today. How are you doing? I'm good, thank you. Yeah, I'm really excited to be here. I did preface before we started that I've done a reasonable amount of research for this.

So hopefully it's not too dry and not too much. Yeah, there's lots of interesting stuff I've looked up for you. Wonderful. And what's the theme? Let's have a little idea of the theme of what it's going to be about. Oh, do you want the exact title or do you want the theme? Yeah, yeah, no, let's get the title. Okay, let's go straight in.

So we today are looking at a couple of pubs in Camden called the Mother Red Cap and the Mother Black Cap. Oh, is there a rivalry between these two mothers? Not that I could find out. But, yeah, I don't think so. But yes, just two very close pubs that have got interesting names. Not like a sort of a knitted bloods and crips sort of thing. Like a bobble-hatted. Yeah.

East side, west side kind of rivalry. Yeah, they're blue and red, aren't they? So, yeah, this one's black and red. Famously, clothing black is just very, very, very dark blue. That's true, it's true. I had a, my wedding cake was black icing. And as we found out, very, very dark green iceing. Yes.

Yeah. I have noticed that black food colouring is green food colouring. Yeah. I think I did a... Did I make a cake with Starbug from Red Dwarf on it? It sounds more like my mum made that for me. Who would I have made a birthday cake with Starbug on four? That's really impressive.

Was it a birthday cake in the shape of Stubborn? It was two-dimensional, I should say. A depiction of Starbucks, because that's three spheres. If you know the vessel in question, Which, if you listen to this podcast, you definitely do. Yeah. No, it was, but it was still three, you know, three sort of raised circles of icing. Because if you made it 3D, that would be really dense.

Oh, yeah, yeah. It wouldn't, how would you cut it? And you'd have to have it standing up on Grosini for legs. It'd be awful. But you get like models of people of heads for cakes nowadays, don't you? Lina Wichie. Yes. Yeah, that kind of thing.

Yeah, you can order actual cakes that are shaped after yourself. Wow. That would be great for me. If there's a standard rate, that would be great because I've got a very big head and face, much bigger than the average. Yeah. So you would be able to serve like 34? Yeah. Yes.

Yeah. Although the shape of it, it would be a standard tray bake. Okay. I think, I don't want to say that there's any good use of, um, generative AI, but I do think it's created an even bigger gap between what unqualified novelty cake manufacturers claim they can do, and then what they actually deliver, making the cake disasters even more hilarious, I think. So I fear that ruining some people's weddings and birthdays is a worthy use of generative AI. I mean, essentially, it's confectionery fraud,

but I enjoy it. I'm blown away by the concept of confectionery fraud as well. I fear that it's probably smarties would need to lawyer up, them only being the ones that have the answer. I'm not sure Werther's original are original at this point. We can't still be on the same batch. Come on. Well, it's because there's the new Werthers.

What? You know, like the bands, the new drifters or whatever. But sweets. The tagline for the new Werthers, are now I'm the new granddad. I'm the new granddad in town. There's a new granddaddy. But Nikki, I fear we've got off the topic by talking about confectional litigation.

Where are these mothers? And I'm going to keep saying it like that for the whole episode, so I'm sorry. So let me switch over to my research document and we will dive straight in. So we are off to an unlikely haunt in Camden Town of all places. Camden Town? Camden Town. Oh, Camden Town. Oh, Camden Town.

And we're going to the World's End pub. Now, have either of you ever been to this Den of Iniquity? Because I have on many, many, many occasions. You've got dyed hair. I've got long hair. It's obligatory. The people with either of those qualities have to go to World End because it is a rock pub. It is a rock pub.

Throwing horns, etc. Although obviously I hate loud music Have you been there James? I've been to this pub Were you asking directions to a JD sports? Yes To the beat To the be at one

Walked in with the Sports Direct mug Put it down on the bar And they all recoil Yeah that's how it works Was there a comedy competition In the back room of that for a bit Or something Have I got confused with the different Camden pub

Hmm, there's many a gig in many a Camden pub I think I might have done a gig in the World's End Summit of the Hills Jago the Star Wars baddy sounding comedy person from London Yes, it could be a mused moose related Well most pubs I've been and I've only been in to do comedy Because I don't drink So I usually only go in for comedy, so maybe

Have you survived the toilets in there Or did you get wet feet? because there always seem to be up to your ankles in water. Oh, no. That's the price you pay for rock music. Yeah, no, it's always the way. That and the Black Heart, which is across the way, which is kind of diagonal.

The toilets are shocking. Absolutely terrible. I don't know whether that's me expecting more. I think that's London, though, isn't it, really? Yeah. Well, I don't know. The gents in those pubs are absolutely delightful. Fragrants, it's a popery.

There's a little sofa. Yeah. Well, in the black heart. who just helps you out. One of those help you out, guys? In the Black Heart, they are unisex toilets in there, so you get the best of both worlds of everybody's grot. Oh, fantastic. Good.

Equality at last. Yeah, yeah, so it's lovely. So the World Zen Pub, it's been there since 1690, but of course things looked very different in Camden back then. So there were no big painted 3D shop facades with piercing jewelry on the front. The dystopian rave nightmare of Cyberdog was. centuries away from existing. We all survived. I feel like you need to mark yourself as safe from Cybertog every time I come out of there. How did people grind their weed? I know, I know, because there was only one shop selling knockoff Amy Winehouse T-shirts, legal high lollies,

and fake Lubbubu's back then because... I have to say, having previously said that generative AI was good at upsetting people on their wedding days. It has ruined the art of bad market t-shirts. There are no... Maybe I've complained about this on the podcast already. You can't... There's nary a stoned Bart Simpson. No, it's true. Not a one.

It's true. What if I wanted to someone to take me to their dealer? Yeah. There's an advert now that uses that. There's an advert for a mini... What? A mini car dealership. That says take me to your dealer.

And they say, take me to your dealer. They run right into the next sentence. Like they're trying... They're slightly... Like they know what they're doing. When they're trying to get away with it. It's like, take me to your dealer. where I can get great deals on cars.

And it is like, oh, look, oh, look. It's like two sort of normal sound of people like, oh, look, Martin, the aliens have landed. What are they got to say to us? And they come and go, take me to your dealer of mini cars. Minich of cars. That's not, that's not. That was, I got myself. The way you deliver the line, it's as if a policeman rounded the corner as you were talking

and you just quickly swerved. But yeah, they've, that line has got itself into happen. advertising now, it's finally become accepted. The next thing we'll, I don't want, I don't want to know what they're going to say about the Pope. Anyway. So, 1690, did you say, for the World's End? So a coxcomb like James will be coming in saying, Prithee Violet, canst thou direct me to a JD Sports in those days. Exactly. So on this dusty bit of road sat the mother red cap, so, AKA what we know is the

disgusting World's End today. Oh, so that's the Mother Red Cap. So that's the Mother Red Cap. Mother Red Cap. Now, even though the pub that stands there nowadays is said to be in the location of the old Mother Red Cap ale house, it's not the original building. In the 1700s, the pub was said to have had an extension to include a tea garden where people could stop off on the road to Highgate, get out and refresh themselves before getting back in and more than likely doing a bit of drunk driving on their horse. Mm-hmm.

Is tea garden a bit of a euphemism then? Yeah, see, I don't know. Tea garden, I didn't quite understand what it was, but I don't know whether they were trying to make it fancy because this place really was not fancy and has remained that way. Or is this one of the periods in time where they thought tea was incredibly bad for you and that one sip of tea would have you debilitated for the rest of the day? Quite possibly.

Just an extra drug, I think. But all of that got me thinking about whether it's, It's illegal to be drunk in charge of a horse. And so I then fell down that rabbit hole and yes, it is illegal to be drinking charge. That's what that was going to be my question, Alistair. What if you're saying about the horse is drunk? Did you Google that. Wow.

We'll just have to assume that's fine. But if you're both drunk, you're having a great time anyway. Then the horse is veering over the road. The cops flash pull you over and then they breathalise you. You'll find the horse is drunk. What are they going to do? Arrest the horse? walking home.

You can't anchor for horse. Put him in an Uber. No, you couldn't because the wrists that would just slip straight off the hoof. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It wouldn't work, could it? Oh, well. But anyway, back to the pub.

The mother red cap was demolished in the 1800s to make way for the Camden Road. And then the pub was rebuilt on the edge of the road in 1875. It's thought that the pub went through a few name changes, but that may be because the pub ended up being at the end of Camden Road, which people would see as the world's end, because it was basically everything just dissipated from that point onwards. Yeah, you're basically in the north of England after that, aren't you?

Exactly, exactly. But all of this is kind of sounding a little bit too much like actual history, isn't it? So we kind of want to get a bit more into the folklore side of things, I think. So the mother red cat pub was said to be named after the person that originally opened an ale house. house on the site. Redcap was a witch who either served food and ale from her cottage or she opened a purpose-built tavern to serve people. Now, would either of you stop into somebody's cottage if they had a little sign outside that said fresh hot meals? Because I don't know if I would. I don't know if I'd trust it. I'd have to see if there was a like five-star hygiene rating

on the wall first. I have done that as a child with my dad. Because when you're, you know, walking in the dales or something, there'd be a small sign that says, you know, like cup of tea, 50 pence. And you go, oh, maybe it's a cafe, but it's not a cafe. You just sit in a lady's garden. And she quite angrily,

quite hopefully, as if you're inconveniencing her, makes you a very affordable cup of tea. Maybe it's, how dare you. It's the sort of the, the village version of the stick in the kick me sticker on someone's back. She didn't put up that a little airboard. Someone else put the 50p.

cup of tea sign and she just was duty bound. Yeah, the honour of the village is at stake, so I will make you that tea. It will be awkward. I've always wanted to buy eggs and or honey from outside a house, but I've always either had no cash or been travelling in a car, so I'd go far too fast to do such a thing. I would do that. I don't know if I would go into the house personally.

It just seems a bit awkward, doesn't it? I feel like I just, after you have the first few, sentences of conversation, that's it. It's done. What else are you going to talk about? James, have we talked about the guy who allegedly was running a restaurant in his house? No. Well, I'm not going to say any specifics, A, because I can't remember them, and B, because obviously the guy involved denies any wrongdoing.

So it's a guy who's a really good cook. He makes delicious curries. And either, if you believe him, sometimes he gives curries to his friends, puts on a big meal, like Monday to Saturday. Yeah. And his friends turn up in dribs and drums and drams. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They don't know each other, a friend.

It's awkward when that happens, so I bet he just sort of regresses into kind of a waiter role. And he's an excellent host, and obviously it's not a restaurant and doesn't have any kind of hygiene rating or pay any kind of tax. Because it's not a restaurant, and it definitely isn't a restaurant. But some people, like the council, think that he's very obviously running a restaurant in his living room. But I don't believe it's a restaurant. I think he's just a really nice man. Hmm. Does sound a bit like a restaurant, though.

No, it doesn't sound anything like it. It's illegal to say it's a restaurant because it isn't a restaurant. Just a drop-in service. Just a nice guy. I'm sorry, look, if you don't have a friend like this man, that is a shame. I'm sad for you, actually. If that isn't a normal thing that you do, but I think it's wonderful and not a restaurant. So who was Mother Red Cap?

Well, she went by many names, and I'm guessing she didn't pick many of these to describe herself. I'm thinking they were given to her because they're a little bit harsh to say the least. So let's start with her supposed real name, Jenny Bingham, which sounds quite modern, doesn't it? Nice. Yeah. Jenny Bingham. You Jenham, Will Bingham. She sounds like a solicitor.

Yeah, yeah, she does. Bingham, Bingham, and Bingham. So you probably wouldn't want these for... names of solicitors, but she also went by the crown of Camden. Yeah, that's less, yeah, less legal. Yeah, the shrew of Kentish Town. No alliteration, but it kind of works, yeah. Yeah, I don't know whether they...

I don't think you want to alliterate with Kentish Town. No. Or the one which I think is quite rock and roll sounding, and so therefore befitting of being in Camden, which was Mother Damnable. Oh, that's nice. I like that, yeah. So I suppose, did she wear a red cap or is red cap like the pixie red cap, like the fairy?

Is that where that comes from? No, apparently she did wear a red cap. Oh, okay, fair enough. No, mind. No, mind. Bad guy in a red cap, imagine. No, can't. So I'm going to steal your job here a bit, James, because I've done my own etymology

corner, I'm afraid. To be honest, it's Alistair, not me, that knows the etymology of things. I know some of them. For instance, I know our restaurant is and isn't. And it's not where, anyway, no, it's not important. I'm 50-50 going to say entomology corner every time. I know. I always think entomology corner and I think spiders.

And then I think, no, it's not spiders, is it? Because spiders don't fall under that bracket. They don't fall under entomology. Hmm. Apparently so, because they're arachnids. So therefore they don't fall under that. I don't know. I could be wrong.

I could be wrong. But anyway. So why was everybody called mother back then? because we've got a whole lot of mothers, haven't we? Oh, yeah. Is it because it was dubbed for, like, pre-watershed or aeroplane viewing? She's not melon farmer red cap. Yeah, yeah.

That's what it is. That's what it is. But apparently it was a respectful way of describing a lower-class woman who provided a service to the community and who wasn't married. Right. Okay. So it's kind of ironic to call her mother. Yeah.

Well, I suppose it's perhaps presumptuous of me to assume that someone who isn't married doesn't have children. Yeah. Sorry. We'll lead on to a bit of that in a little while. I suppose like the way you might call an old man Gramps if it was the olden days, but if you tried it now, you'd get your head staved in. Yes. Stove and Inn? Stov'd in?

What's the correct past tense of stave? Stephen In, that's what it's called. A fine Camden Pub, the Stephen in. But only Stevens are welcome there. Stupid. Just coming. Now, why these evil-sounding names? Because surely this is a nice old lady providing a nice pub to nice patrons. She sounds great.

Yeah. Well, apparently not. This area of London being on such a main road meant it was full of very unsavory characters. So what types of people do you think we're using this area? So it's kind of a thoroughfare. Goths? Is it goths? Yes. Gosses.

Gosses. Straight edges. Vizzy goffs, yeah. Visy straight edges. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Punk's probably, skinheads. Rick Pock era people. Yeah, Mauds.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. By the way. Banksy, I want to say Banksy, maybe. A literal unsavory person would be a sweet person. It's true. I've never thought of that before. I suppose there are the five tastes, and the unsavory would be, you're crossing off umami, so you've got salt, sweet, bitter and,

Yeah, well, you can be bitter. You can be salty. You can be a salty type. But you cannot be be umami for some reason. Well, you can only be un-humami, the unsavory types. You don't really get savory people. A salt and shake. Great point, James. Great point. Badly made. Umami red cap. Does that work? Oh, that sounds like a delicious mushroom. Yeah, it does. It sounds like one they might sell in the legal high shops in Camden. Oh, it was so full of mushrooms when I moved to luncheon. London and they changed the law and now you can't go from booth to booth buying mushrooms on the streets of Camden anymore.

I remember there used to be a festival in Bristol where they used to be a guy who went around on a bike and he had packets of mushrooms for 50p. Wow. You could just buy mushrooms for 50p. Not that I ever bought mushrooms because hallucinogenic ain't my bag. But yeah, you could. Yeah, same for that lady in the Lake District. 50p for a cover tea, 50p for a bag of hallucinogenic mushrooms.

She's so grumpy though. Maybe that's why it was grumpy. Such a grumpy shaman. But anyway, it was full of dodgy people, criminals, just, yeah. Criminals, laggards. People that you don't want to be hanging around. They're dwells, laggards. Reminds me a bit of, have you ever been to a pub in the middle of a council estate that's got an Alsatian on top of it?

Flat roof pubs. Yeah, flat roof pubs. Have you ever been to that biker cafe near the outer ring road in northwest London? Is it the eighth? It's like a diner. Yeah, it's like an American-style diner and it's all bikers. It's quite, it's not there anymore.

Is it gone? I'd be a jacket potato with beans there once. Nice. But they looked at me in a way that sort of said, we know you're not a biker. So we'll let it slide this once. I might have confused that with the day. for one that's definitely no longer there.

Don't look for it or do look for it if you are a bike. Do you look for it? It might be there. It might be there. Alastair, just a brief as ever, I mean, this is already thick with the sides, but a brief aside, when anyone else says outer ring road, it sounds very boring. But when you say it, you give it a degree of magic and sci-fi edge, I really appreciate. Sounds like something you'd see Henge winging around on.

Yeah. On the outer ring road. In a Mancunian accent, please. Come on, James, come on James. On the outer ring rolled. Beautiful, beautiful. There's a big performance to it. Fantastic.

Fantastic. So Mother Damnibal herself didn't escape the criminal accusations either. She was said to lace her food with herbs. Fine, right? Now, I assume this was not to do with hating rosemary or dill, and that's why people were annoyed about it. I'm guessing they were hallucinogenic or toxic and she'd use them to poison her patrons

and then steal from them. I'm guessing that's kind of. Oh, yes. Sort of knock them out and take their purses, yeah. So are we ready for the devil to come to Camden because he's about to make an appearance? Yes, please. Mother Damnable was said to have got her name

by communing with the devil, but one night that's meant to have gone horribly wrong. In front of the fireplace in her home, she called in the devil and no one knows what happened next, but the following morning, she was found dead by the fire as the embers smouldered away. Ooh. Wow.

Probably coincidence. Yeah. And I think a certain amount of inferences going on there with regard to what she was doing when she died. Unless you wrote down just about to summon the devil, hope it goes well. Dot, dot, dot. And then she was dead holding a pencil.

Did you leave a series of audio files for you to listen to while you walked around? But you could, annoyingly, you can't open a door while you're listening. Yeah, that is annoying. Or sometimes, yeah, you just do something else and it stops, then you have to start again from the beginning. I've listened to this once already. Annoying, annoying. But anyway, that is the story of Mother Red Cap, but that's not the only cap in the area because we're headed a bit down the road to another pub called the Black Cap.

We've got a black cap in the house, Black Cap, Red Cap. It's like the Timmy Mallet of London boroughs. Yeah. It's like the film Black Cat, White Cat, but with red instead of white and caps instead of cats. So nothing like it at all. But it's very similar apart from that. Now, when we were discussing what case we were going to do in advance,

James actually emailed me and said, just want to check, is this the tale from Camp Den? Didn't write Camden, wrote Camp Den. Ah, Camp Den. But that is that was intentional, right, James? that's how you spell your version of Camden from... Yeah, that's where the Camp Den wonder.

Camden. But I did mean Landon Camden. James, James, James. James. Shames. Shames, Shakeshaft. Oh, no. My alter ego.

My blamable, the damnable, shames. Or blames shakeshaft. I've also had Shames jakeshapht. Shames jakeshap, wow. Wow. That's absolutely terrible. But your mispelling was not too far off the point here because it's very apt for this pub. So we are going to a camp den.

Now, back to history again, I'm afraid. Listeners will be shocked to discover that we plan these, I think. That's how it works. Revealing that there's emailing that goes on before, people will be shocked. It was only two emails. Revealing that I'm getting things. wrong in those emails. They will find that believable, yeah.

Blames, brackets, blames shakshafed. Yes. The black cap was founded in 1751 in Camden, and it was apparently named after a local witch, which kind of sounds a bit familiar to everything we've just covered already, doesn't it? Now, this pub has basically bibbidi-bobbidi-boodd its way around Camden,

because it's been in several different locations. So it used to be by the Camden Town Station, so it was directly across from the World's End. So you could go to the black cap and the red cap in an evening and probably have a very nice time. And a nightcap. Yeah. And they should have had a pub called the Nightcap next to it.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, the little bar inside that's, you know, a little secret one that's so popular in London. So the one now that's still there, popped up in the 1800s and it's about a three-minute walk from the world's end as long as you don't get distracted by CEX on the way because I know that I do. Okay, so it's a 20-minute walk minimum. Yeah, yeah, I do like to stop in there.

You've got to check. Yep, got to find out if there's that obscure documentary from 1982 in there. In the modern day, the pub became home for drag artists. In the 1970s, it was home to the legendary Mrs. Shufflewick. Now, I have to say that I actually haven't heard of Mrs Shufferwick before. Have either of you heard of Mrs Shufford. No. I'm afraid not.

I'm sure someone's misspelled my surname as that before, but no. Yeah. And Hinge and Brackett as well. I do remember Hinghamrackett. Yeah, I've heard of them. They started there as well. And then later down the line, the legendary Lily Savage did her first drag performance there. Oh, wow.

Yeah. And then in more recent years, it's been, hosts to lots of Rupalls, drag race, winners and not so many winners. So Bianca del Rio, Ben de la Crem, Ador Delano and Trixie Mattel of all made appearances there. So it closed its doors in 2015 and remained closed until campaigners brought it back to life in 2026, where it's back open and once more dedicated to drag in the LGBTQ plus community. But back to the folklore, back to the folklore, less of the history, because we're headed back to Mother Black Cap.

Mother black cap Now some people claim that mother red cap And mother black cap were the same person Because it kind of sounds quite likely, doesn't it? I was going to start claiming that, yeah Based on the information I've received I was about to say you can't have two witches in that That proximity

It's the same witch, surely Yeah, surely Just one scene at night And just with an outfit change I reckon reversible Yeah, maybe it was just a That would fit right in with a drag show

Yeah, it would, wouldn't it? Back in the day. However, there is a story that links Mother Black Cap with the Yorkshire legend of Mother Shipton. Mother Shipton. Mother Shipton. Now, have we ever done Mother Shipton, James?

Or have we deemed Mother Shipton too famous? I think we did the other Mother Shipton or Mother Shipton. The other mother. Is that like Campton, Camden? I think so. There was, wasn't there, who's the one from Surrey with the big cauldron we talked about? I can't remember. Which one got squashed under a door in York?

Is that Mother Shipps? No, I think she just died of old age, didn't she? Mother Shipton is the one from Mother Shipton's cave, of course. Yes. Yeah. Now, if you thought Mother Red Cap was atmospheric, wait until you hear about Shepton because her name was Ursula Southey. which if that isn't a witchy name

I don't know what is How is that spelled the surname Sabil? Sathil South Sotheal South Eal South Eal

South Eil South Eil South Eel That's the only kind of Eels No she's from Yorkshire So it'd be Southill South Eil Oh

So Is that any eel from below Watford I don't know North of the Watford Because as a southern I would consider anything to be northern if it's past the Watford gap. I mean, I consider Sheffield to be the south, basically.

So, anything below that? See, I don't know. As soon as you hit Sheffield, I think that's the north. Where is the north? Is it an idea or is it an actual thing? I think there's probably some lines somewhere that say, you're in the north. I don't believe in compasses. Sorry, we've got quite far into the podcast for me to reveal that I don't believe in

compasses. James doesn't believe in directions. Just go up. Cardinal sins, not cardinal directions more like. Bebe, boo. James slams never eating shredded wheat. He's hitting it right now, listener. He's eating it constantly.

Anyway. So, to make things more witchy, she was also born during a thunderstorm in the 1400s. Not that the 1400s are witchy. but the thunderstorm is quite witchy. And her mum was an unwed teenage mother, and she gave Ursula away when she was a toddler. But Ursula got on OK, she studied as a herbalist

and became something known as a cunning folk, aka a medieval pharmacist. I'm sure you've encountered cunning folk many times before on this. Indeed. What is the singular of folk, though? There's cunning folk, but she became a cunning, I dare not try to pronounce it as a singular word. I would become out quite rude, I think, if you did.

Would it be longer? Yeah, it would be longer, wouldn't it? Yeah. One syllable longer. Yeah. So Ursula married a carpenter called Tobias Shipton, and when he died a few years later, she became Mother Shipton instead of Mrs. Shipton.

So she got rid of the misses. I don't know whether that's she chose it or whether the town chose it. I got a funny feeling that the town chose it for her. She got rid of the misses. Like a 1970s comedian would say. Got rid of her. Not rid of her, Mrs. Now, apparently she looked quite weird.

We don't really know how weird, but apparently she did look quite weird. Or I don't really know what kind of weird she looked. Apparently she looked weird. Maybe she had a weird look. Yeah. Don't know, mismatched colours. But people apparently shunned her and she ended up living back in the cave. She was born in, but she'd creep out into the village and give her.

prophecies and when they started coming true, people realised she wasn't just a mad, weird old crone, she was actually useful. She allegedly predicted the Spanish Armada, the Great Fire of London, as well. And she was very good at predicting who would have their heads chopped off next by the monarchy. Wow. Wow. And you can still visit her cave today and inside people leave trinkets that can be petrified, which is as a result of the mineral deposits which turn everything to stone. And that's the stories of Mother Red and Black Cap and the pubs they inspired. Nice. Thank you very much. So the Black Cap was inspired by Mother Shipton, by famous witch Mother Shipton.

Apparently, sir. Either that or Mother Damnable. I think it's that one. I think it's more likely to be that one. I think it's more likely to be that one. The other witch that already lived there across the road. Yes. Could have been that change.

And not a witch from Yorkshire who lived in a cave. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's probably more likely to be that. The other thing. The theory is that they harboured a lot of criminals at the black cap, and they used to dress up in women's clothing to then send them off. So therefore, it has a very long history of drag. So that is...

I see. I don't know whether that's just... It's just one of those normal situations where you house prisoners and force them to cross-dress. Yeah. For sort of hijinks reasons, I think. Yeah. It's just a normal thing that happens sometimes in pubs. Yeah, that's how it works.

Or maybe they made them perform for money. And that's how it all started. That's what I'm going to say. Well, I think the origin of camp, is that widely known? Am I right about this, that it comes from armies marching with their camps? And the women who would hang around those camps would tend to be flamboyant and wear a lot of makeup because there would be whatever this period is, the Napoleonic sex workers of the time. And so they would, you know, have rosy cheeks and all that sort of thing and over-the-top outfits.

And that camp originally described that kind of look. That might be a fake etymology, which I have been very scathing of in the past. But I quite like it. It's a good one. I think it's, you know, kind of explains a lot of things. But, yeah, I don't know where else it would come from. The only other camp that I can think of is campanology, and that's bell ringing. So that doesn't really work.

Which does require rhythm, I suppose. Depending on how you look at it. I think there is, there's an act. an anagram one, but I'm going to look that up now. Hold on. Everything I said about camp was nonsense, obviously. That isn't true. It's just unknown. Nobody really knows where it comes from, I think, but the earliest usage of it, according to the National Archives, in an article written by Vicki Iglikowsky Broad, is a letter written by one half of Fanny and Stella, who were, well, I think they would have been understood to be cross-dressing performers at those times,

but we'd probably think that they were trans these days. Yes, one of them used the phrase, my campish undertakings to describe their practices. Yeah, Fanny and Stella. Nobody really knows. Nobody wrote it down. A fascinating story is Fanny and Stella. One I've yet to cover on Macab, London,

but one day I will do it, one day. Yes, those are great stories, but I think the difficulty with telling them on a light-hearted podcast like Lawmen is, they all end quite badly. There's an awful lot of sad endings. Yes. Well, that's a great pair of witches or one witch or three witches. Yeah, at least 1.5 witches.

Yeah, all right, all right. Okay, then, so, Nikki, are you ready for us to score these mothers? Yes. Excellent. Excellent. What's your first category? Naming is the first category. Okay.

The World's End pub. Great name for a pub. It's also a Edgar Wright film, isn't it? It is. Yes. It's a good classic pub name. in London's. Yeah, it's one of the classics like a white horse, isn't it?

Great in the, potentially great in the pub sign game. Yes, how many legs are involved in the world's end? Everyone's legs. Or it depends what's happened to end the world. Like has the world ended and everyone's gone? Or is it about to end? So you've got everyone in the world's legs. That's just some of the fun that you can have playing.

Yeah, I don't think I'm theoretically qualified to debate that. No, not at all. but it's a great name. We've got a couple of mothers. We've got Mother Red Cap. We got Mother Black Cap. We got Mother Shipton. I looked it up.

It was Mother Ludlam. She had a cave. That's how I come I got confused. I see. It's mothers in their caves. Who else have we got? We've got some of the pub names we came up with. Yes.

Grumpy Shaman. The Grumpy Shaman. Hinge and Bracket. The nightcap. Yes. That's a good name. The Lily Savage. Yeah.

The Savage Lily, yes. Oh, the Savage Lily's great. Why doesn't somebody open that pub? The Savage Lily sounds like it would be the name of sort of a Chinese club in a now offensive Sherlock Holmes story. Yes. Yes, it does. Well, the opening of an Indiana Jones film. A now offensive opening to an Indiana Jones film, yes.

So what's you reckon? Some fine names. I think I would have preferred, maybe if there was a fourth witch's name, maybe it would be easier. to give it a full five. Mother damnable. I forgot all the pseudonyms that she had. Of course. Mother damnable.

Mother flipper. The shrew of the old Kett Road, wasn't it? Yeah, the shrew of Canning Town. These are terrible, actually. The ones that don't alliterate are really bad. Motherfoker, is what we all. Motherfoker, yes. I think we don't need to believe that.

That's fine. That's fine. Nobody's going to miss it. All right. I'm going to make that a four then. I'm going to make it a four. Because we couldn't think of what the name for one folk was. Yes, fair enough.

And until we've come up with that word, it can't be more than four. All right. What's next? So we're going to go for the spooky, the scary, the supernatural. Now, I would say poisoning people isn't magic. Drugging people and robbing them, not magic. Is that fair to say? Now, reading tea leaves,

like James's great grandmother. Like DMA. Yeah, DMA. Yes. Yeah, great grandmother. Yeah. Run DMA, yes. Great grandmother.

Yeah, James, James's great grandmother. That's how you do real witching stuff. Caldron, forever bubbling for potions. Yes, good, good stuff. Magic coat of protection. Magic coach of protection. That's magic, yeah. Yeah.

How about being visited? by the devil, I think that's pretty strong. Being visited by the devil, I'd forgotten that. Yes. I'd forgotten that simply because there was no evidence that happened. Yes. I did actually also look... No, there was definitely evidence. There was so much evidence.

Somebody said it happened. So therefore, that's what's it called, witness statement. I also looked it up in Friend of the Show, Laura the Land, and something that happened around the time of, of mother red cat's death. She had a big cat, a huge black cat. Oh, well, case closed then. So everyone saw the devil go inside, but didn't see him leave.

Of the cat? Of the house, of the house. Of the house, thank goodness. And they found her dead, and there was a teapot there, and they gave the cat some of the stuff from the teapot. Oh, and all its fur fell out. Within two hours, all its fur fell out, and it also then died. Wow. Why did you make the cat drink that?

I guess they didn't like the cat. Well, is that, I don't know if that's supernatural. I don't think that's natural though. Okay, no, I'm going to say it's five out of five for supernatural because they murdered that cat. Yes. What is fur fell out? Did that cat's fur fall out in vain? No, it didn't, James.

Five other five. Five points. It was worth it. But the cat would be dead by now. that cat would have died any way of natural causes yeah that cat's fur would have fallen out by now it would have done it would have been a very old cat if it was still around

you'd be terrifying yeah like pet cemetery yeah right and third category what's the third category tis the in crowd okay

and I think you heard me pronounce that second N Double N-I-N-N crowd, yeah. Yes, because Camden is trendy. Very, oh so trendy. It's snazzy. Absolutely, yeah. So, so fashionable. And, of course, in being a name for a pub, we've had ever so many.

We've had the black cap, we've had the red cap, we've had the one that was just someone's house, so many. In a way, the world's end is another one because it was sort of built. next door. It was built in the spirit of the red cap. Yeah. Okay, yeah. So you're double counting both the red cap and the world's end are separate. I suppose they are. They are different pubs. When a put

moves around to different buildings, it's a different pub, really, isn't it? It probably is a different pub, yeah. It is, isn't it? Yeah, I think so. I think so. Well, then it's got to be five out of five for the in crowd. I could hear the second end well pronounced. In cloud.

Mm. Mm. What is the final category? So, it is the mother load. B'am. Oh, ow! This is the mother of all episodes where we said the word mother a lot. Definitely.

Yeah, and every time James said it, like he was saying, a rude thing, which is very clever. It is big and it is clever. It is big and clever, actually. James is enormous and very intelligent. is the definition of big and clever. Every time he says something clever, he gets bigger. It's like a vast witty hill. I'm like one of those like computer game videos

where it's like whenever Mario jumps, he gets bigger. Anyone else gets served there or is it really just me? Because I don't know what they are or why they exist, but they keep showing them to me. Yes. So is it whenever you say anything witty or clever, whenever you do a bit of wordplay or a pun, you gain an inch in height?

Yeah. Bigger. That explains it Can't get on the bus anymore I've seen the B movie but every time they say B it gets faster Yes I've seen that Yes

Yes Yeah yeah yeah And basically Alice in Wonderland If I were to read a transcript Of I Got News for you It's five out of five Yes It's the mother of all scores

Five out of five for the mother load Yes Thank you very much Alistair It's LOD because it's a stone Is it? I think so. Yeah? Mother Lode is a mineral of some kind?

What? I'm just doing guessing etymology corner again. Yeah, I'm enjoying the guessing. It could be right, could be wrong. It's an excellent substitute for knowledge, guessing. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's what everybody else does. So I wouldn't beat yourself up about it.

It is spelled with an LOD. I thought it was because it was like something to do with space. Oh, there's a motherload mine. Oh. The principle, according to the website I'm looking at, I'm not going to say which online is. Like, here it is, the mother load is of principal vein or zone of gold or silver ore. Deriving from the literal translation of the Spanish Vita Madre, a common phrase in old Mexican mining.

Yeah, of course. I was just about to say, it's a common phrase in old Mexican mining. Ah, yeah, yeah. You were going to do the voice, though? No, I wasn't. Good, good. That's why I've been wearing a sombrero for the whole episode. You were going to say it, whether or not we talked about this.

Yeah. Can I bring the conversation around? To my preferred subject, old Mexican mining. Everybody's favourite subject. I did used to have a sombrero at university for some of days. We didn't know about cultural appropriation in those days. Let me be clear, I didn't know about cultural appropriation in those days. It would have just seemed useful and used it for what it was intended for.

Chips and dip. Where can people hear more of you, Nicky? So you can listen to Macab, London. wherever you get your podcast. You can listen to Killers Cults and Queens with my lovely co-hosts Cheryl, wherever you get your podcast. And you can listen to Scarred for Life, wherever you get your podcasts.

And I'm on YouTube as well. Oh, lovely stuff. James, when I plug this podcast, I never describe you as lovely. What? Yeah, I just say with the enormous and witty James Shakespeare. The growing. Ever-growing, James Shakesha.

Nobody knows when he'll stop. It's the one-liners. It's those pithy one-liners. Well, I will listen to all of the. those things. Is there a particular theme going on in Macab, London at the moment, that fits into the topic that we've been talking about? I know there is. Yeah, there is. So I'm doing a year-long series all about the origins of magic, religion, occult and belief in London. So a little bit of everything, really. And yeah, it all ties through quite nicely. I started in a very early day,

it's all the way back to the Druids. And I'm now all. all the way up to the early modern period. So Henry VIII has just made an appearance. Queen Elizabeth is making an appearance tomorrow when the next episode goes out. So, yeah, by the time this comes out, there'll be more episodes heading out. And plenty of them about witches. Yeah, yeah, that's how it tends to go. What's it like?

Yeah. Quillisabeth, you're up to Quillisabeth. That's fantastic. Yeah. So not the second. We're talking the first. Otherwise, that would be a big jump. Exactly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yes, it's all interesting stuff, how sort of the city was formed around these beliefs and how people have shaped their lives around it. So if that's your bag and that's what you're into, come and give it a listen. Hmm. I will. Blubin will. Yeah, I guess that was quite a lot of witches.

Fine, fine, fine. And there's definitely a few bits cut out of that. which will be in the bonus episode, which will be out via patreon.com forward slash lawmen pod. And if you support us via that means you will also get access to the law folk discord

where you can chat with like-minded law folk. Alistair, what's going on? Have you got a tour coming up or something? Yes, I'm back on tour in September. Come and see Alastair Beckett King, King of Crumbs in the UK, in a town that may or may not be near to you. We just don't know.

It really depends on where you are. I like the idea that Mother Redcap considered being in drag to be changing the colour of her hat. She's sort of like one of them grumpy people that goes to a fancy dress party and it's like, well, I'm dressed as such and such another person in your friendship group who dresses basically the same as you. Yeah, or you buy a T-shirt that says, this is my costume. Off. Why go to the effort of buying that crap? Just buy a funny hat. Go hard or go home?

I don't know.