Loremen Podcast - Loremen S7Ep34 - Arthur: A New Life with Amy Jeffs

Episode Date: September 17, 2026

Author Amy Jeffs (Arthur: A New Life) joins us with the tale of King Arthur's most important quest: learning what (medieval) women want. As with a lot of Arthurian rambles, there's meandering aplenty. But thanks to the Loreboys, this retelling has more Super Mario references than you'd expect. Buy Amy's books here! Get tickets to Alasdair on tour - ⁠⁠⁠⁠Immediately!⁠⁠⁠⁠ For Bonus Episodes and more join the LoreFolk at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠patreon.com/loremenpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ko-fi.com/loremen⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Check the sweet, sweet merch here... ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.teepublic.com/stores/loremen-podcast?ref_id=24631⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ @loremenpod ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠youtube.com/loremenpodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.instagram.com/loremenpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.facebook.com/loremenpod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to Lawmen, a podcast about local legends and obscure curiosities from Days of Yore. I'm James Shakeshaft. I'm Alistair. We have a episode that we could record it a very long time ago. I think the day I came back from Japan. You were very jet-lagged during this recording. But it's a real humdinger because it is with friend of the show, Amy Jeff. Amy Jeff's back in the house, in the law house.

And it's all about King Arthur. A new life. James, you got a little bit of the old jet lag there. Yes. Yeah? I have. It's a modern problem. It's a modern problem.

It very much postates the invention of airplanes. I would suggest you shake that off. Fourth with. What? Yeah, because we're jetting in from the West country. Yeah. Is that correct? Amy, is the West Country.

Jetting in from the West Country. We've got Amy Jeff's returning deputy guest lawperson, Amy. Hello. Hello. Hello, Amy. It's lovely to be here. Thank you for having me. And I'm right in thinking you've written yet another book.

Outrageously prolific, you have written another book. Yes, I've really enjoyed this one. I enjoy all of them, but I did enjoy this one. And this one is about little-known indie king. King Arthur. Yeah. Arthur a new life, it's called. Yes.

What's the new life? Are you revealing a scandalous history hitherto unknown? Well, I suppose, so the idea that I had was that a lot of the modern retellings of the Arthurian legend are based on maybe, well, the Victorian retellings, a lot of them are based on Thomas Mallory's Mort d'Artierre, which is late medieval. and it in turn draws heavily on French romances about the court of Arthur and it's got that real kind of high medieval mood board, the kind of pointed shoes and tall hats and knights and shining armour. Did women wear those big long triangular hats with a bit of handkerchief coming off them? Yeah, for sure.

Wow. What were they for just fashion? Blowing their noses. That's what the scarf was for and the pointy hat. Aerodynamic speed. Yes. If they tilt forwards, like a character in anime and run, it couldn't stop them.

They would get jet lag. They would be the original habits of jet lag. Jet de lag. Which was French for Jet of the Lake, I think. Yeah. Lens a lot to lag. Also, this is my first Arthur podcast. So please bear with me while I formulate my elevator pitch.

But it's essentially that go back further. than the French romances back into the 12th, 11th, 10th, 9th centuries, you find Arthurian sources that present quite a different mood board and quite a different king. And sometimes he is a kind of Hercules figure, sort of monster fighting hero. And he can sort of charge across the landscape at a really implausible, you know, rate with his warriors who can, some of them are so heavy, they can squash mountains, some of them are so light, they can go over reeds. Is that because of they've got those hats on?

They've all got the pointy hats. They've got the pointy hats. They've got any of these at least. Some of them have got beards so long they can toss them across 50 rafters in the hall. That would be annoying if you forgot you'd done it and then tried to leave. It's like when you get your microphones caught, microphone lead caught. In your beard? Yeah.

In your rafters. Oh, right. Sorry. I thought, James, you've got quite a short beard. How much are you getting? How entangled does it get? Just got really stiff hairs. As a child, I played Fagin in Oliver Twist. And I did, I had really bushy sideburns. And my microphone kept getting tangled up in my sideburns when I was on stage and making this kind of noise. I've had that because with those sort of cheek mics, the sort of, the sort of, the, the Brittany mics, they call them. They used to be Madonna mics. They used to be Madonna mics. But now the most up-to-date musical reference is Britney Spears.

Young, up-and-comer, Britney Spears, a singer I think is exactly the same age as me. I think she's exactly the same age as me. Oh, so slightly older than me then. I think we share a birthday. Are you actually, Britney Spears' birthday twin? I think so. Sorry to pause King Arthur. we've got big news.

Big bigger news coming up here. She's a year and a day younger. She's younger than you. Okay. Year in a day though, that's not much. That's a very folkloric amount of time between you. And quite owl and the pussy cat as well, isn't it? Yes.

Is it? Yes, yes, because they went to see in a beautiful pea green boat. Absolutely stunning. And you and Britney Spears did very much the same. Yes. Which one was the pussy cats? I don't know, but I did it again. Whatever it was.

So you're rediscovering King Arthur. Well, what's it is, I've built a life of Arthur as a kind of patchwork, a fiction built from the earlier sources that might not be as familiar to modern readers as some of the more Mallory-Routed ones. And so it's as authoritative as the Mallory-Rooted ones, in that it's anchored in original sources, medieval sources, but it's quite, I think, unfamiliar. And it's a very, you know, the story I've constructed is mostly based on the brute legend,

where Arthur is a legendary king within the dynasty of legendary British king. So it's very much placed in a kind of historical context. And, you know, it's, it's the story of his ambition pitched against his personal relationships. And I've sort of woven through the fictional narrative, a number of essays to kind of expand. on certain things. Like there's a wonderful story of the conception of Merlin in multiple sources

between a nun and a demon. So there's an essay about demon sex. There's a demon sex hair in that one I would love to mention at some point in this episode. I can feel that good proportion of the listeners clicked by the instant you said, demon sex. I think that's a real, a real hook.

A demon sex hair, is that H-A-R-E or H-A-I-R? H-A-R-E A-J-R-E both would have been good Yeah Yeah No it's a great little, can I tell that

little story please? She's not too source Well, if it's too hot for the pod We'll put it in the bonus But I would like to hear it It is quite saucy

Oh, go on Right, okay Well, basically I was reading Jeremy Hart's Medieval Encounters in Fairy England I really am

keen to kind of always flag up where these strange little stories come from And he talks about a miracle report from the Shrine of St. Ivo in Cambridgeshire. Medieval Miracle Report. Sorry, we both did the same miracle report noise there.

Breaking Miracle News. This miracle just in from Cambridgeshire. There we go. James here from the non-jet-lagged future. It was a bit rude for the main episode. Yeah. I'm here from the future as well. How's your chat like?

Fine. Yeah, no, I've really recovered from you going to Japan. Back to the episode. So it's that sort of thing. And the exciting thing about writing and researching this book is that I've followed. I stay as early as I can, as much of the time as I can. And those sources have taken me from Wales to Sicily. So it's a journey across Europe, across Christendom.

And the essays sort of bring, they sort of touch on subjects such as the Crusades and how the Arthurian stories travelled, how they were kind of naturalised in different places, like they were, there was in the 13th century, recreation for an emperor by Jervais of Tilbury. He talks about, he's worked in Sicily. I'm nodding because I've heard his name before. I'm doing a serious nod.

Oh, yes, Jervais. It's coming across well on the recording. An audio nod. Tilbury drop, nice. Nodio. I'm realising I confused Pillsbury and Tilbury. So I thought I'd heard of it, but I was thinking of the dough boy. Yeah, Javees of Tilbury talks about,

because he spent some time working in Sicily. And this is in the early 13th century. And he talks about how the people of Sicily have this story that the bishop of Katania lost his horse and his groom went looking for it and followed it into a cave in Etna. And there are lots of these lava tube caves in Mount Etna and follows it and ends up sort of coming into this beautiful landscape open plain and there's a building. And inside the building there's a man lying on a couch. And he discovers is King Arthur.

and resting from the wounds he received at Kamlan. And Jervazzo Tilbury says that the groom brought back treasures from King Arthur, which were on display in the bishop's palace. And so this fascinating insight into how the story spread, how it was appropriated and naturalized in different places. And, yeah, it's been a, it was such a wonderful project to work on a complete adventure of itself. I have a question. When is King Arthur supposed to be in these tales? Is it always like, oh, a couple of hundred years ago? Or is it, is there a fixed point? No, it depends on the kind

of story you're reading. But I think there was a strong, a strong consciousness in, especially, with a, this body of, a body of literature called the Matter of Britain or sort of spun out of the Brute Chronicle, which is Geoffrey of Monmouth history of the kings of Britain from around 1136. We've heard of Geoffrey of Monmouth. Yeah. Of Geoffrey Romworth. So it gives you a list of like a dynasty of British kings and queens and in the deep past.

And Arthur is very clearly situated in that at the sort of turn of the fifth, end of the fifth century, it's what I'm trying to say at beginning of the sixth century. And so because the brute, you know, Geoffrey's Brute was translated into Middle English and Welsh and it was the dominant deep history of Britain for some 600 years, you know, into the time of Shakespeare. I think that you would just need to say, Arthur, even if you were telling quite a whimsical story of Arthur, people would just know that they would know their, well, especially if they had any kind of education, their Brute Chronicle. But I'm talking about the kind of post-Jeffrey time. It was different before that. So there, so when, so there was an idea that

that he was a historical sort of person back in the past in the historical times. That's really the first place he's fully treated as a historical figure and given a biography and given a predecessor and a successor. That's where he's sort of brought under control as a legendary character. So he starts out in the realm of legend briefly transfers. Does a sideways move into history before returning to his first love being imaginary. It's possible that it's one of those, so Jeffrey does this elsewhere where a name from Celtic law appears in his chronicle as a mortal figure and a historical figure.

But, you know, so there's like Valenas, one of the kings in his dynasty may have something to do with Celtic sun god. And so rather than the kind of common assumption about King Arthur that something historical happened and then legends came after, it may have been that he was actually a kind of folk hero, it may be more that he was a folk hero figure who was then brought under the sway of history by a 12th century chronicler. This reminds me, my kids have like encyclopedias of like Marvel characters and those have like the fully rounded out. And I'm a little concerned that historians in the future might find the A to Z of Marbles. Because they do sort of put them into context of like, you know, Tony Stark was involved in the Iraq War kind of thing and stuff like that. And it's like, I hope people don't think we actually believed that.

It was just a bit of fun. It's so hard when you put a few hundred years between yourself and a source, how to detect humor. We ran into a similar thing, although I might have been wrong when I said it when we were talking about the Holy Grail in a previous podcast because there were lots of people taking Grail stories quite seriously. But as far as I could tell the sources that we were coming back to were medieval romances, that I think I got the impression would have been understood to be fictional at the time that people were reading them. would have been understood to be a story. And yet they'd been sort of woven into history from a fictional story, obviously, based on legends.

Yeah, I think that's, I don't cover the grail in great depth in my book. It's a bit mainstream. Because actually I had other stories I wanted to focus on, it's popularised around the turn of the 13th century in the context of pretty sure it's continental French, old French romances. And by the 14th century, it's certainly being presented as a kind of Christian historical fact by the monks of Glastonbury Abbey. But presumably that has something...

But presumably the actual monks. Is there a band? No, I just bet there is. If there isn't, there should be. The monks of Glastonbury Abbey. Yeah. Joseph's Thorne. And the months of Glastonbury Abbey.

And the months of Glastonbury Abbey, yes. So there's that kind of chicken and egg situation with popular zeal and things becoming quietly being placed in history and presented as historical. But it's such a difficult one to untangle because of that different perception of history. You've joined us today with one of your favoured stories. Is this from the book or is this one that didn't make the cut? This is, no, yeah, it is from the book. And it's called Arthur and Gaulegon.

Ooh. Oh, Gaulegon. And it's in a 14th century manuscript. It's a Latin text. And it's all about how Arthur and his knights have met at Pentecost. They're having a feast. And Arthur gives Gwynnevier a great big kiss in front of everyone. And she doesn't like it.

And she pulls away. What a happy marriage these two must have. of the nights nudge each other. They just, look at that, big old kiss, been married for years, big kiss like that. Yeah, and she's not happy about it. She sort of pulls away and says... Trouble in paradise.

Yeah, it says, why do you think that was appropriate? She sort of, what do you think that was for? And he says, oh, just because I love you. And she's like, well, I didn't want you to do that. And he's like, I know what you want. And she's like, you don't. You have no idea about a woman's desires or wishes. And he says, I tell you now before everybody that I will go away.

I will not eat another bite of food until I have found out what women want. Wow. So I found my DVD copy of what women want. I like the way instead of being like, the guys are all here. He really draws attention to the situation, right? Well, my guess I'm going away for a year. Yeah. So Gawain and Kate go with him.

They ride off. And the implication is that they sort of cross over into the other world. as a sort of on their journey a castle sort of looms out of nowhere on the side of a hill so he goes into the castle and there's there's a king sitting at a feast

the king introduced himself as Gorgol and sorry I'm just going to check that name I'm pretty sure that's right Gargol Gargall Gagal Gargall

Torley and Gawler my name was speaking so gargill he introduced himself as king Gargol and Arthur says, you know, I want to, I want to know what women want. And he says, sit down and eat. And there's this kind of tension, there's like social mores tension where it's so impolite, not. So eventually Arthur gives in and he does just gorge himself at this feast. And he says, you know, will you tell me the answer to my question? He says, no, they go and see my brother. And so they go off riding again and come to another castle.

This is kind of a strange elliptical narrative where maybe it's the same castle, maybe it's the same king. but now he's called King Tolley. And the same thing happens. They kind of tussle over this custom of, please sit down and eat. And he says, no, I will not eat. I have a question I need, but eventually he can't resist. He can't be impolite.

He has to sit down. Impolite being the wrong word, but undecorous or something. This is like my mom has a lot of sisters. And if they've all been to a cafe together, the fight over who's going to pay is, it's, you know, oh, no, I've got this. No, it's, it really is. The subtext.

is... It's all about dominance. Yeah. Yes. So Arthur eventually, and, you know, there's this kind of courtesy. Yeah, so Arthur sits down and he's at King Tolley's table and asks his question again, and Tolley says, no, go and ask my other brother.

So he rides off for a third time. Another so strange elliptical journey ends up at another castle. Goes in and there's a king... Which feels like, for budgetary reasons, it's the same castle in a weird way. It feels like they've gone, you know, we can just use the same castle. same castle and we'll just light it differently. I think the imagination probably does work like that. I think if you're going to have a strange device in your story where you have to go to

three different places, forcing your reader to imagine three different places might be, might lose them. I wonder if that's. Yeah, well, you've got the Jonathan Swift warning. Lilliput, everyone's small. Great. Rob didn't nag. Everyone's big.

Okay. Leputa? What's your angle? We don't inventors and then people are horses and then Japan. Don't tell the Spanish. Don't tell Spanish about that one. Yeah, I think he knew what it meant when he was being rude. But yeah, it's like, yeah, you can go up with two good ideas,

but a third would be impossible. So better to just do the same thing three times, like the Back to the Future films. But what, no, they went cowboys. Anyway. But the problem with the Lilliput thing, there'll be Lilliput really small, the other place really big, third place really medium? Yeah, really average size, really normal size. I don't know if I pronounced Robden Nag correctly, but, you know, it's not a real word. Right.

Land of the Hwimms, that's what the horse people are called. Sorry, I interrupted your story, just as we were reaching the third identical castle. really sweet. You were so excited to say Huinim. So comes to King Gawla Gond's hall and it's initially the same as before but this time Arthur resists the urge to sit down and eat and Goulogan is this kind of big, sort of dracula king and agrees to tell him a story that will answer his question. And he says once upon a time there was a king who had lived in a beautiful castle and he had lovely garden besides castle. He had a queen, beautiful queen who he loved dearly. And in the garden

there was growing a sapling that had been planted or the seed had been sown the very day that he was born. And so he and the sapling had grown together. It's a bit like, my grandfather's clock was too large for the shelf. You know, they'd grown up. It was, it was born, it was bought on the morn of the day that he was born and was all his joy. Anyway, it's like that. It's like the grandfather's clock. Stop. Never to work again. You and me and deed. Yes.

You know it. I know the end. I know the grim bit at the end of the sad bit. Just to, for the listener's sake, just to be clear, I have no idea what's happening currently. I have no idea what they are talking about. Digtock, dig, talk, like, tick numbering. Yeah. I don't know that bit.

Is that the middle eight? Yeah. All right. I'm just going to Google grandfather's big clock and hope for the best. Don't misspell it. Did you mean? So anyway, this sapling grows up with the king and they have got a strange magical connection. And he was told at some point in his childhood that if anyone should ever pull up the sapling or cut it down and strike him on the head with it saying, be a wolf and have the mind

of a wolf that fate would be visited upon him. And so he protects it, goes out, tends to it every day. He won't let anyone in the garden. And his wife's very, his wife, meanwhile, the queen has fallen in love with a young steward. And she wants to think of a, wants to find out a way to get her husband off the throne so that she can have her lover and, um, install her lover as king. And she always sees her husband in the garden with this sapling and she wonders if there's something about that, something, some mystery. And so she actually starves herself until he tells her the secret of the sapling. He refuses for ages. But eventually he gives in when she's on sort of at death door and he tells her about this spell. And so when he next goes out for a hunt,

she breaks into the garden with an axe and she cuts down the sapling and she hides it up her sleeve and, um, and waits for him to come home from. They had those big sleeves, didn't they? Really big sleeves, yeah. Wates for him to come home from the hunt and takes out the sapling and strikes him on the head saying, be a wolf and he turns into a wolf. Roof. But, but, but, she didn't, she didn't say, and have the mind of a wolf. Yeah. Silly, silly, silly queen. He turns into a wolf, runs off to the woods, but he's still got the wit of a man. And he watches as she installs her lover on the throne, and they're a tyrannical pair. They have children.

Meanwhile, he mates with a she-wolf brings into the world a litter of wolf cubs that he waits until they're old enough and sends them into the castle grounds to massacre her children. Ouch. And this is what women want. Loyalty. Being loyal and dangerous, James. haven't you read t-shirts? He goes off.

He manages to flee into another kingdom and finds the king of that kingdom out with his entourage and ingratiates himself with him in a kind of dogish, dogish sort of way, sort of like wagging his tail, being all cute, looking or kind of intelligent. And the king decides it would be really nice

to have a sort of wolf sidekick. So he takes him... To be fair, it would. It would be quite It would be very cool to have a wolf sidekick Oh that's just my wolf sidekick Don't worry about him Yeah

Do worry about him So he goes along with this king for a while And Manages to communicate to him That he wants to get back to that kingdom I can't Yeah I don't know what particular device he uses

But he does manage to sort of Persuade this other king To go to the kingdom next door And see what's going on And there's this story of He hears a story of how the original king, the good king that was, had been turned into a wolf by his wicked wife. Presumably he used one of those things people buy their pets with buttons on

so they can say like, scared, scared food, hungry. Presumably they had a medieval version of that. Yeah, a tapestry. Yeah. Or maybe just a series of like gestures or courtiers who would say different things when he put his paw on them. on the courtier yeah

pop his paw on the courtier and the courtier would say hungry scared or whatever yeah former king was quite nice he's trying to tell us

something so he is able to communicate to the foreign king that he was in fact that king that was turned into a wolf I think he would have nodded looked at it yeah

like is he that he's done with the human eyes that you see on the the internet sometimes. You know, you see that picture of that dog with human eyes. I haven't seen that. It is, it's creepy. It's meant to be cute, but it's weird.

There'd be a big old tome and there'd be a picture of a wolf in it. And the wolf would be like looking between that and him and being like, hmm? Ask me. With a newspaper tapestry in his mouth and drop it at the king's fate and like nudge it with his nose. King, a, king turned into wolf. And then he'd go look in the mirror and sort of pointing his paw at the mirror. Point his poor.

Yeah. Sweet. Maybe try to get a crown on. I mean, I'm not sure a dog. I'm not sure any canine could do that. But if he could wear a crown, that would communicate it. Yeah, like maybe the other king has put his crown beside it on his bedside table. And the wolf sort of slides it onto his own head.

Yeah. Probably onto his snout, just like it goes onto his neck. and you get stuck. Like when, yeah, when they're at the vet. Yeah. But maybe if maybe the king would put the crown onto the dog as a joke, like the way you might give it some beer, but then just go, you know, actually this dog looks like he's got crown-wearing experience.

Yeah. I mean, wolf. I forgot what animal it was. He is a wolf, yeah. This wolf has crown-wearing experience. Maybe he knows, maybe he's want to, wait a moment. Anyway, there's just any number of ways this could plausibly have happened. This whole way in which you're taking this and running with it,

Alistair, is making me think, I really want to see the film of this. 45 minutes of it is just the dog trying to explain who he is to the king. Very little action. Then undermining it completely by dragging his hindquarters across the rugs. Get out of here. He's not a human after all. This is the 12th century. Those rugs cost like an entire year's wages.

What are you doing? We haven't got dry cleaning. Yeah, so he goes and fights the king that was actually just a steward that the queen was in love with. And they torture her until she tells them where the sapling is. And they then turn him back into a king. And he, it said, King Gawler, he keeps stopping in his narrative and saying to King Arthur, now will you sit down and eat? Come on, I'm tired of talking.

Sit down and eat. And he keeps snogging the woman next to him as well. He's his wife. and Arthur keeps saying, no, no, I'm going to carry on. You're nearly at the end. I'm not going to give up. So then King Goulogon says, well, you know, he didn't. The king who had been the wolf, who's now been transformed back into a king, he's very merciful.

He executes the guy, the steward, obviously. But the wife, he just divorces her. Oh, very merciful. I like that. Then that comes a twist. This is the twist. This is the bit, I think, is really cool and weird. Gorgelagon says, yeah, so he just divorced his wife, blah, blah, blah.

I looked happy ever after as king. And then Arthur says, great, great, I see it. That's a good story. Yeah, interesting. Why is it that every time, while you've been telling the story, every now and again,

you've kissed the woman beside you. And every time you do that, the woman sitting opposite you snogs a severed head. And he says, great question. Thanks for asking. Well, if it wasn't,

in case it wasn't obvious, I was the wolf king. Oh, it wasn't. Yeah. Unless he was dragging him across the rocks. That was not obvious to me at all. And he says, and I didn't,

I didn't execute my first wife for everything she did. But I did, I did curse her. So every time I kiss my new wife, she has to snog the severed head of the lover she used to at me with. Wow.

And that's what women want. That's what women want. Yeah. I mean, it's really, and it doesn't have a kind of conclusion. And that's just the end of the story. Hmm. Hmm. Wow.

At least Arthur and Gwenevere, they're solid, right? That worked out fine. Yeah, that goes well. Sure, yeah. Great. Few. That's a horrible story, but I guess that's what women want, and who am I to criticize that? Maybe I could tell you another story that might allow us to think a little bit about what men want.

Is what men want? Is it a wolf sidekick? To be fair, James and I did both really perk up when the idea of having a friend who was also an intelligent wolf came into the story. When you meet up, you'll know that just to make the other one happy, you could dress as a wolf and just trot along. And there are guys who do that. Yeah. So this story is it's just a little aside in Geoffrey of Monmouth's his story. of the Kings of Britain.

When Arthur has gone to Monsal-Michelle, it's not at that point called Morsomichael, it's called Mount Tomb, to fight a giant that's living on it and that has killed a young woman. Is that the one in Penzance? No, the one in Britain, not, sorry. They should be twinned, though,

because it's Monsan-Michael and then there's St. Michael's Mount, isn't there? Yeah, that's what I'm thinking of. I translated it into English in my head. It's in Normandy. So Monsan-Michel is in Normandy. the Benedictine community there was given some lands

on what then became known as St Michael's Mount by Edward the Confessor. Oh, so there is a connection between the two. So Arthur has just defeated, there's been a protracted battle scene between him and this giant on Mont Saint-Michel and one of his knights just says and sort of throw away,

they brought his head back to camp, they're kind of having a big celebration, he says, oh, this is even better then that time Ritho, the giant of Ereari, so like the giant in Snowdonia, was sowing that enormous cloak of beards out of all of the chieftains he had killed, on the beards he'd taken from the chieftains he'd killed. And he'd left a gap for the greatest beard in Britain. And he sends a message to Arthur saying, could I have your beard?

And Arthur says, absolutely not. And he says, I'll fight you for it. And so they have a fight. and he kills Ritho. I mean, think of the poor page who has to carry that message. To, to Ritho, re-beard request. No way. Absolutely not.

But the guy that had to take the message in the first place, like, he's not going to say yes. Can we just ask him? You can but ask, off you go. You don't get any beards if you don't ask for him. Yeah, I've got this many beards, probably fighting. I thought was the giant French? I thought the giant was Welsh. No, the first giant, the giant that gets killed in the story

and you get all the attention on is this giant on Mont Saint-Michel in Normandy. But there's just this little aside, which happens a lot in Geoffrey of Monmouth. This is a few lines of a massive story just condensed to a few lines where you think, is that something that Jeffrey just came up with or is that a sort of a story he'd grown up with? And he just wants to put it in there because he liked it. Yeah, like on Family Guy. Just a little cutaway.

They don't have a whole plot. Very much like Family Guy. That's, yeah, I think that's how it could have been. That quote could be on the front cover of Geoffrey of Mum's book, I think. Very much like Family Guy, Amy Jeff. Yeah, thanks. And I suppose the thing that I really liked about, Reith, was this idea of this really macho giant in the Welsh mountains.

And he's kind of really signaling his machismo with the fact that his medium of choice is beard. Yeah, that's going to be an itchy cloak. You've got to really want it. But he's working on kind of a patchwork quilt. So it's adorable. I'm sitting there in the mountains quietly sewing. Yeah.

It's one solution to the male loneliness epidemic, making a quilt out of your enemy's chins. Getting into knitting. That sheds any light on what men want? A hobby. An obsessive hobby. Yeah. Yeah. Clock of beards.

Some skill. Yeah. It's good. It's like becoming the pizza guy because you've got to learn, you know, you've got a master getting beards off people. You've got a master defeating people in order to get those beards off. and you've also got to master sewing. So with the pizza, you've got to get the fire,

you've got to make the dough, and you've also got to sew a beard of bees. It requires sensitivity and aggression. It's like that idea of being able to dance and fight, isn't it? It's beautiful. I think Ritho is a beautiful symbol. I'm worried now because up until now, all the adverts I get on YouTube are for metal posters

for like a video game and anime characters but all the posters, James, are metal and held onto the wall by a magnet. So not metal the music genre. Right. Metal the material. They're literally metal posters. Yeah.

The internet is convinced that I would love a poster that is made of metal. And let me tell you, I do not want a poster that's made of metal. But is it in 3D? They're probably like lenticular. holograms or something. They look dreadful, but I can't, because of who I am, because of everything I've told

the internet about myself, the internet knows what I want or it thinks I do. So I feel like I need to send out the messages that I'm getting into beard cloaks, because I'd rather have targeted adverts about that sort of thing than metal posters. Yeah, I think it would be a beautiful palette and very on trend with its neutrals. Yeah. You could really make a very like really nice colour screen with a beard. Yeah. Yeah, all the silvery ones around the bottom. I imagine, given his geographical context,

he'd have his share of sort of red through sort of copper, should make lovely accents. Yeah. Would you tartan? Would you go for a, would you like tartan weave it or have it banded, so it just like gradually changed as it went through. I see, you're weaving your cloak of words. No, I don't think you should weave them because you want to be able to say, James, that gap there, that's the most prize beard of all.

Noel Edmund. Right. Yeah. You know, you want to be able to, one day, one day I will have it. The Edmunds, the silkiest, blondest beard of all. So is it got like holes in it? Is it a bit like a string vest because there's got the mouth holes? Yeah, yeah, yeah, for airation, for circulation.

Yeah, so let the air get through and you can catch the air. It's breathable. Of course it's breathable. It's a beard. If you can't have an unbreathythal beard, you'd die. Well, we both said if you couldn't breathe through a beard, you'd die at the same time. It might be time to move on the scores. That's what men want is breathable beards.

What men don't want is beards that cover all their airways. Yeah, yeah, you don't want that. Sufficating beards. should we let's do some scores Amy I'm going to I'm going to sort of advise you as a lawyer a lawyer I like it if you will and you don't have to

but if you will James will be your lawyer yes I'll be I will sit in judgment upon my throne occasionally necking with my queen here and occasionally handing out scores so what's the first category go with supernatals

Do I, okay, oh, sorry, okay, thank you. The first category is supernatural. Well, it was highly supernatural. All the tales you've told us seem outlandish. They're not real history. Sorry, Jeff of Monmouth, which is French for my mouth. Yes. No, that's not true.

Jeffrey of my mouth. What a weird name. So, yeah, no, there's been a lot of supernatural stuff. I like the way they went into the other world. with the three seemingly identical castles, all the good fairy tale rhythms were there in that story. Transformation into a wolf, that's not normal? No.

Not natural. A magic sapling that can be... I would have thought if he's in his 30s, how big would a tree be by the age of 30? Quite big, I would have thought. Too much for a woman to uproot and then keeping a sleeve. Well, I'm not... You haven't seen my sleeves.

I just meant for one to a brute, for a gender neutral schema to abrude. Maybe it's like a really slow-growing type of tree like box. Or bonzai. Maybe it was a bonsai. Bonzai tree, yeah. Yeah. Pop in your pocket. Pop in your pocket.

But you just come back from Japan. If I've forgotten that 14th century Europe probably wasn't big on bonsai. I don't know. I was saying that with confidence, but I'm not sure. You can sort of tell when the word for it is a different language. That's usually an indication that we hadn't heard of it until fairly recently. And what about, there's another supernatural thing in that story that you haven't said yet. It just occurred to me, lingerie is kind of worrying.

All the sexy words are in French. And it's like, what were we doing? What are we doing? Pants. Just pants. Stockings, yeah, hose. Yeah, hose. That's the Germans that's a blame for all the hose, I suppose.

Gosh. What was the category against? Supernatural. Yes. Not sexy. Not trousers. Very supernatural. What else happened?

We've got a transformation into a wolf. The twist. The twist. Yes, the curse. Oh, the curse of the woman who has to kiss a severed head. That's more disgusting than it is supernatural. And a giant, are giant supernatural? Or are they just big?

That is a big question, like, not just because it's about giants. Because that's like a whole thesis, looking at the cultural history of the representation of giants and whether or not they're just big people or supernatural. A supernatural beast. It's contingent on the fate of their soul in the medieval. Of course it is, yeah. So what if they don't go to heaven or hell? Yeah, there's this whole thing where in one of the versions of the voyage of St. Brendan

where he has a conversation with the skull of a giant on a beach about, and he says, where are you? And he says, I'm in hell. He's a kind of incorrigible bad boy pirate giant. And Brendan offers to... Now that's what women want. Absolutely. Incorrigible bad boy pirate giants.

Brendan offers to bring him back because he was really bad in life and that's where he got sent to hell. Brendan offers to bring him back and baptize him and give him a chance to live a good life and the opportunity to maybe be redeemed and go to heaven. He's like, if you gave me the whole world and it was solid gold and I had 2,000 years to enjoy it,

I still would not come back because I will be bad again and I will be damned again and I'll be damned worse for being damned twice. Wow. But he could have gone to heaven, which means, according to the evidence of St. Brendan, giants are just big people and not supernatural beasts. So the giant does not count, and I'm going to have to knock it down to fall with the authority of St. Brendan on my side there.

Damn that, Brendan. Damn that. Take it over, Brendan. What is your second category? What does my lawyer say? I say go with naming. Naming. Or names.

Names. Great names. The three giants, they were called The Three Kings. They were called Grable Gragles Timtutti and Gragal, Grogol

Gorgal and Gorgal. Yeah, Gorgla Gorgon as well. Unforgettable names. Classics. Classics in the genre. Yes. What are the names were there? Jeffrey of Monmouth, obviously.

I've really kind of, for an important historic figure, quite a bland name. Geoffrey of Monmouth. Yeah, I like all the Jure names. There's like Jervais of Tilbury, Jeffrey of Monmouth, Gerald of Wales. Gerbil?

Jirbel? There's not a gerbil. There's no gerbil historian. Jirbel of Essex. Yes. I believe a gerbil could write a history of the British Isles. I'm not saying it couldn't happen one day. I'd love to read it.

Yeah. Do us proud. Any gerb was listening. It would tear up straw. and sort of arrange it, set away, and then kind of nod at it, like the dog earlier. Yeah, like the dog. See, I think when I was a kid, my sister had hamsters and gerbils and things, and I would watch them in the tubes, just moving all the bedding from one side of the complex to the other,

and then just the next day they would move it all back. I thought, this is why these guys are idiots. And now I live in a small flat in South London. And I just, I'm always like, there isn't enough space here, so I have to move the sofa to a different place to have more. And then I just move it back later in the day. Like a gerbil. It's pathetic.

So names. Names. Well, there's a few. There's a few. Remind me of those kings. I have forgotten their names. And I was talking when you said them. Gargol.

And Golagon. Gollagon. Good. Yeah, I think it's a good solid three for those three kings. And there's Ritho as well. If we're going outside of this particular story. Ritho. Was it Rifel?

Yeah. That's quite good. All right. four, including the giant Rether. That's another good four. I don't know the demon sex hair's name. If you did, it would have been a solid five. Yeah, probably Beelzebub.

Thumper. Thumper. Bielsa Bielsa Bowny, yeah. Humper. Humpur, yep. If you had known, it would have been five out of five. What is Categorly the third? It's weird, these three categories.

It feels like each one of them has happened in the same castle, Even though I've just done the same category over and over again, you've seen if anyone noticed. I've been riding between castles in between each one. This category is, go with what do lassies want? It's got a pun in it and everything. What lassies want? We've all learned an important lesson about women

and what they are first, what they aren't, which is hairs, and also what they want, which is mostly horrible, I think. They want to bop you on the head with a stick and then the Transformer into a wolf and then shack up with one of your employees, which is horrible.

And Guadivir can be a little bit touchy. A little quite easily upset, a bit moody. With a P.D. When faced with a PDA. Yes. Yeah. She doesn't like that. Probably display of Arthur.

And, but I appreciate the pun. We've also got what lassies want like a dog. Because there was that famous dog. A good portion of the story. Arguably more of the story was about the guy in it, the king, who was the guy telling the story, twist. and what the dog wanted was, I think, like a funny scene where he tries on a series of different crowns in the mirror. And it keeps being like, no, but I'm still a dog.

In order to find a way to communicate that he was the king that got turned into a, again, a wolf, not a dog. Yeah. So I think it's five out of five for what lassies want. And this isn't what lassies want, then I simply don't know. Thank you for an immense sense of victory. Final category. Final category. Go with mansplaining.

Mansplaining. Yeah. Mansplaining. And the reason for that is. Of course, Amy, is... We both did the same joke again. We did it again. I've been doing this podcast for too long.

In genuinely, to explain this. James, I demand a mansplination from you. What does it mean? I think we all noticed that in trying to find out what women want, A man took his two male friends and asked a series of men what women want. So it's illegal for men to have hobbies now, is it, James? No, you've got the beard thing. Yeah, yeah, we've got making a big quilt out of beards.

Yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah, no, it's got to be five out of five for mansplaining. I'm glad you think so. When you put it like that, James, it's shocking, isn't it? I've got to say, I think these ancient stories have killed. Arthur, a little bit sexist. I think they might want to have a word with themselves. It would have been a much, much, obviously, shorter text

if he'd be like, well, Gwynneville, should we go, should go for a walk? Why, you just tell me how you feel? Every single classic story could be solved by someone going, hold on a minute, have we severely misunderstood something here? Like, can I just check, like, who you are and so forth? And when you say I can put any blow on, you and you'll come back in a year.

What exactly do you mean? Oh, by the way, if I'd cut your head off, that would be the north, what I expect to happen would happen, right? That was reference to go over at Gavin in the Green Night. I get that one. Mario less so. Yeah. Yeah, if that stays in the edit, just to be clear,

James made a very good joke about the princess being in another castle. And Amy didn't understand it. Due to not knowing video games. From first principles, what Mario was? As a child, I used to go around to these two brothers' house after school every day and watch them play Super Mario. So I don't know why none of it stuck. Maybe they never completed a level.

Maybe it's because I never let me play. We just don't know what women want. Why must you be so mysterious? They were very generous hosts. I was never won for video games. It was probably just combing my hands. hair. Wearing a big pointy hat with a long hanky for broing your nose.

Hiding trees up your sleeve. Yeah, that's it. That's exactly what I was doing. Thank you very much for coming back on the pod, Amy. For people who want to check out, Arthur, a new life. Is it available in all good bookshops? It is. Yes.

Right, well, that's that, then. Yeah, just go in and ask for it. And please do buy it and buy it for your friends and your enemies. and I hope you really enjoy it. Well, thank you very much, Amy. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed that. Thank you to Amy for coming on.

Yes, thank you very much. Get her book in the shops. It's out now. Have you recovered from your jet lag? If recovered from jet lag means I'm just tired all the time, then yeah. Yeah. And listener, if you're tired all the time and would like to chat with like-minded lawfolk in some kind of online forum situation.

Is that possible, James? Of course, you can join us at patreon.com forward slash lawmenpod and you'll also get access to a load of bonus episodes which feature bits of conversation that we don't put in the episodes. For example, from this episode just gone, there's literally 10 minutes of us talking about Japanese toilets. And thanks very much to all the people who already do support us via. that means. And thanks also be with you. Keep making references to things after the 15th century.