Loremen Podcast - S3 Ep28: Loremen S3 Ep28 - The Three Ghosts

Episode Date: July 9, 2020

Alasdair invites you into his 'psychomanteum' to hear a triptych of ghostly tales. You want a ghost to get bullied by schoolboys? You got it!  You want a ghost who steals hats? No problem!You want a ghost on skates chatting to a hip vicar? Weirdly specific. But yes, we have that too. Do we need to mention we've come up with a new detective series concept? Because we blooming well have. ko-fi.com/loremen @loremenpod www.twitch.tv/loremenpod www.instagram.com/loremenpod www.facebook.com/loremenpod @JamesShakeshaft | @MisterABK

Welcome to Lawmen, a podcast about local legends and obscure curiosities from days of yore. I'm Alistair Beckett-King. And I'm James Shakeshaft. And in this episode, it's Ghosts, Ghosts, Ghosts. Whoa. A neon sign. Late night ghost show. Live ghosts. No, it doesn't make any sense.

Am I in the blacklight district? I was picturing you in a sort of ghost Soho. A sort of a so... Ooh. So, presented for your consideration, James, I give you The Tale of the Three Ghosts. Three separate tales, three separate ghosts. Quite pedantic there, James. I recently came across a book called The Haunted Homes and Family Traditions of Great Britain by John Ingram.

Oh, that sounds right up our street. It is bang up your alley, wedged in there. Was John Ingram, was he in Are You Being Served? That's John Inman. Ah, close. This book was published in 1897. Probably not the same bloke then. No, it's a different century, different name.

Yeah. So, but apart from that, both called John, so a lot in common. Yeah, I'd say it's probably not the same person. He published what he called a collection of strange stories, not, and I'm quoting here, not with a view of creating un frisson nouveau. What's that? A new frisson.

It's French for new frisson. Which would be a type of haircut, I guess, like a blue rinse or a perm. It sounds like a sort of a portable food cooler. A frisson. Yeah. He didn't compile them with a view to creating a frisson nouveau, but to serve as a guide to the geography of Ghostland. Ooh. He goes on to say most people have heard of the Demon of Tedworth

and the Lord Littleton ghost story. Of course. Of course. We've all heard of the Lord Littleton ghost story and The Demon of Tedworth. Yeah. But he tries to comprehensively provide basically a handbook to the haunted houses of Great Britain. And he invites you into his psychomantium.

Oh, God. Didn't know what that was either. That sounds like a made-up metal from the Marvel Universe. His arms are made of psychomantium. Yeah. It's actually a darkened room with a mirror positioned so that it reflects nothing. Face down on the floor. are made of psychomantium. Yeah. It's actually a darkened room with a mirror positioned so that it reflects nothing.

Face down on the floor. Yeah, there's really no position in which a mirror reflects nothing. And that's a room you would sit in to communicate with the spirit world. Quick mirror-based sidebar. There's a very funny Twitter account called People Selling Mirrors.

Highly recommend it. It's just pictures of people who are selling mirrors online. It's very difficult to take a picture of a mirror. What I do is I pick up the mirror and then photograph myself in a mirror holding the mirror. That's sort of what some people do, but then some people sort of try and hide behind curtains.

So you've just got a picture of a curtain with a phone sticking out. And some people take a picture and it's just their shins. That's pretty much the experience of being in a psychomantium then yeah very sinister yeah uncanny unheimlich this ingram fella sounds like he's way ahead of the times he's basically invented our podcast and one of my favorite twitter accounts yep i went through this book and it's got a a ton of ghosts so i thought i I would pick out three schoolboy ghosts.

Ooh. Not always of schoolboys, but three ghosts that were connected to schoolboys. Okay. Just to present the ghosts in a thematically coherent way. Not ghosts that make schoolboy errors? Well, some of them do. Some of the ghosts really slip up.

Do they do a shit and they haven't put any holes in fries? Schoolboy error. Look, I don't think you're ready for quite how spooky these ghosts are going to be. I want you to know that at any point you can say, whoa, that's too spooky. Oh, really? And I will tone it back.

Okay. In case it gets too spooky for you. It's quite a nice summery day when we're recording this. Should I mentally take myself into my mind, Psychomantium? Yeah, exactly. Get into your Psychomantium, please. Okay. Or cupboard.

Get behind the curtain of your imagination with just your little phone sticking out. A cupboard with a mirror turned to face the wall. Yep. I'm in. The first ghost I'm going to tell you about takes place in Beeminster in Dorset. I'm in love too, because I also like bees. Sounds, if anything, like a church made by bees. Yeah, this bee is a vicar. We all know bees can make churches.

In 1728, on June the 22nd, 12 boys were larking about. How many boys? 12, the spookiest number. No, 13 would be the spookiest number, but perhaps a 13th was about to join the party. So 12 boys larking about, messing around in the old schoolyard. And they heard like a big banging sound seeming to come from within the church, So 12 boys locking about messing around in the old schoolyard. And they heard like a big banging sound seeming to come from within the church,

like someone banging on a copper pot. And they all went to see what it was. And then they couldn't find anything. And they just went back to playing. They weren't really that bothered. And then one of them remembered that he'd left his book in the school. So all 12 of them, you know what boys are like, piled in. And when they opened the door to the school... That was meant to be a sound of a door opening,

but it kind of came out Stoke dying. But it was meant to be a door creaking open. They saw sitting on one of the benches a coffin. What? A child's coffin was sitting on one of the benches. Oh. And they pushed the door further open. That sounds nearly dead now.

Yeah. And they saw a little boy. Not just any little boy, but the spirit of John Daniel, a boy who had died a few months earlier. In fact, the cousin of one of the boys in the group. Paul. He was sitting, holding a pen and a book. All 12 boys saw the coffin sitting there. Yeah. And five of them saw the boys in the group paul he was sitting holding a pen and a book all 12 boys

saw the coffin sitting there and five of them saw the little boy they recognized him as being john daniel his cousin among the boys said oh it's it's my cousin john daniel wearing the same clothes as me because apparently they used to wear the same clothes all the time uniform uh let's throw stones at him and so they pelted him with stones and that was the end of the ghostly encounter they all had to go outside and gather stones and then come back in and hoi them at this poor little ghost boy yes I think

it might be that the area they were in was outside and the door led inside I was also confused about where the stones came from but boys being boys it's quite possible they already had stones in their pockets pocket full of stones yeah just in case pocket full of stones, yeah. Just in case. Pocket full of stones, yeah. Maybe a little toy car.

Yeah, because when I was a kid, I would have had action figures in my pockets. But I guess in these days, they wouldn't have had action figures. All they would have had to play with is stones. So you would just have a pocket full of stones. Stones, twigs, mud. They didn't have toys in those days. And the kids were, and this is a quote, all magisterially examined by Colonel Broadrep,

which is a nice name. All 12 boys described the coffin looking exactly the same. A coffin. All the five who saw the boy described him as looking the same. But one child, the oldest among the group, and a sort of sober, sensible kid, not to imply that the other kids were drunk. There's no evidence for that.

He described seeing a white rag wrapped around the boy's hand. What's interesting about this is they found that the woman who had interred the little boy when he had died a few months earlier, I should say, John Daniel was found dead in a field. And because he suffered from fits, he was believed to have died from a fit. The woman who interred him had found a white cloth wrapped around his hand because he suffered from fits, he was believed to have died from a fit. The woman who interred him had found a white cloth wrapped around his hand because he had injured himself. And so she removed that white cloth, which the other kid had seen, James.

He saw it and it was there. And based on this evidence, the body was disinterred and re-examined and an inquest was held and it was found that John Daniel had been murdered and strangled to death. Oh, dear. Yeah. He revealed his own murder. Yeah.

Child detective from beyond the grave. Well, it's not really detective if you're the one that's being murdered. Sorry to ruin your new TV series before it's even been pitched. You knew I'd worked on the jingle. You knew I'd prepared the jingle. Child detective from beyond the grave has got a little bit of cloth around his hands. But maybe that's

just episode one where he solves his own murder and then from then he goes on. He solves his own murder. He solves other murders. He gets pelted with stones wherever he goes. Every episode has a hilarious scene where he gets pelted with stones. What's his sidekick? The coffin? No, Colonel Broderick.

Oh, right. Okay. But they were driving a car shaped like a coffin. Yes, of course. That makes perfect sense. I'm glad that story of child murder didn't upset you too much because it's going to get worse later in the podcast. Oh, gosh.

But the next one is quite light. Good. So that one was Bee Minster, the famous bee church of Dorset. The next one takes place in Launceston, or Launceston Grammar School in Cornwall. Is that L-A-U? It's L-A-U-N-C-S-T-O-N. I think it's pronounced Launceston locally, but I'm from the north and refuse to pronounce it like that. You're from near Newcastle?

No! Why? Why would you say that? So, Launceston Grammar School, Cornwall. This took place in the 17th century. A 16-year-old schoolboy named Bly had become unaccountably dejected, which is not, you know, you know the type. The emo hair, the sort of the moping about

with ripped jeans and they're sitting on the bridge. Yeah. And they're going, oh, stupid, isn't it? Big trench coat on and big boots exactly so this little goth was having a miserable time and the the reverend john ruddle who i see is wearing like a sort of uh a kind of rainbow waistcoat and being like a cool vicar rev revel rev ruddle he sat him down presumably with the chair backwards in the cool teacher mode yeah Yeah. A la, what's the name of the film that Gangster's Paradise song was in?

It's so synonymous with Gangster's Paradise you think the film is called Gangster's Paradise. I'm going to look it up. Yeah, look it up. Grease 2? No. Dangerous Minds. Launceston Grammar School

was a Gangster's Paradise in a way. Young Bly basically explained what was happening. Almost every day, every morning and every evening on his way to school, he had to walk through a field. And in that field, he saw the same ghost. It was a woman he had known who had died eight years ago. She was following him every single time he went through this field. So Ruddle thought, I'm not having this.

I'll come with you and we'll see if anything happens. And so he went with him. He joined him on the 17th of July, 1665. And I just want you to notice, I'm giving you the specific dates that these ghosts appeared, James. Yeah, these are real, real actual dates. The actual dates. They're all summertime ghosts so far.

Summer ghosts. Summer haunting. Left me aghast. So what do you reckon? Do you reckon Ruddle saw the ghost? The Revvy Ruddle? Red Ruddle? Red Ruddle? Yellow Ruddle? Do you reckon Roland Riveran saw the ghost? The River Ribble?

Do you reckon Rebel Rebel the David Bowie song saw the ghost? Do you reckon a packet of revels? Ah, no, because he's a vicar. Although he's pretty cool, he's still got the power of Jesus in him, and that's going to have frighted that ghost away. He does have the power of Jesus in him, but perhaps you overestimate God's power here on Earth,

because there are other powers. And in fact, he does see the ghost. They both walk through the field, and they see the ghost moving towards them. Actually, they don't call it a ghost. They call it a spectrum, which to someone of my age and nationality is difficult because that's basically like, call it an Xbox or a PlayStation

or a Commodore 64. Yeah. So this GameCube. This Sega Saturn came towards them, gliding like a game gear, like a child on ice, it says. It didn't walk with steps, it glided. So in case you were thinking maybe this was just an odd

woman who was in the vicinity who happened to look like the woman who had died. It was gliding towards them. It glided towards them, went right past them, and then went over a stile. And they both ran to the stile, climbed onto the hedge to see. Completely, completely gone. He says, I do aver that the swiftest horse in England could not have conveyed himself out of sight in that short space of time.

Not even on ice. He also noticed that a spaniel dog which had joined the company barked and ran away as the spectrum passed by. Ingram goes on to say, this ocular evidence clearly convinced, but withal strangely affrighted, the old gentleman and his wife. They knew the woman. And this is the interesting thing. They recognised the woman who had died eight years ago. Her name was Dorothy Durant in her lifetime. They were at her burial

and now plainly saw her features in this apparition. So Ruddle was affrighted. He hadn't managed to talk to the Spectrum, which is what he wanted. But you were right. He is a man of God.

He's got the special God powers. He's got a psychomanteum skeleton. So he went back. He went back in the morning, tried to talk to her to her she vanished and so he came back in the evening and he saw her and they had about a 15 minute chat after which she vanished and was never seen again oh what did they talk about and he does not reveal the content of that chat what yeah it's kind of annoying isn't it yeah that's yep i i like the touch of like, being like she was on the ice skates, but I'm a bit more interested in what she had to say.

Well, being a... It was probably like the Konami Code. It was probably just sort of left, right, left, right, up, down, A, B, start. Boom, she's gone. Did it affect his life? Did Blythe get any... I don't have any more information about what happened to young Blythe after that, I'm afraid. What about Rev Rubble?

It just went on tour. No, it didn't. I don't know. The story finishes there. I've got no more information. What? Post ghost. What?

I've got no follow-up info on them. I'd love to have been a fly on the wall. A little yapping spaniel. Or a horse on ice skates. It sounds fairly convincing, doesn't it? Yeah. It's got a lot of detail in it. But not the detail of what did the vicar talk to the ghost about?

Yeah. I've got a third story that connects to schoolboys. So this one doesn't take place in a school. But I have to sort of do a bit of a content warning before this one because a few episodes ago I did Yorkshire's Atlantis. And now I intend to bring you Yorkshire's The Shining. T-shining? That was a long pause while I waited for you to say t-shining. Tshining? That was a long pause while I waited for you to say Tshining.

Yes. This is Yorkshire's Tshining. It is, Johnny. So this is not going to be like one of those podcasts where nice ladies talk about horrible murders, but it is a bit nastier than the previous two. So if a child revealing his own strangulation was a bit much for you, you probably don't want to hear the next one.

Oh, gosh. If, on the other hand, you're not bothered about children, let's go. So we're in Yorkshire now in a place called Calverley where a man called Walter Calverley, known popularly as Sir Walter, was a spendthrift who hated his wife, who was, by all accounts, very nice. He was a Catholic, so we were off to a bad start at this time, which was around 1604. On the, get this, 23rd of April.

Specific day. Wow. He found out that a member of his family had been arrested for a debt that he himself had incurred, and he went off the deep end. He went into, as the book says, a fit of insane frenzy of jealousy. I'm not sure if that makes sense. He went into an insane frenzy of jealousy when he realised not sure if that makes sense. He went into an insane frenzy of jealousy when he realised that he had, quote,

completely beggared himself. Which I think means ran out of money and got head over ears into debt. And he basically flipped out. He rushed madly into his house, snatched up both of his children and plunged a dagger into them. Oi!

Yep. Which he's frowned upon. Yes. I'm no entrepreneur. But I think even the most, even Deborah Meaden or whatever the American equivalent is of Dragon's Den

or Shark Tank, I believe it's known. Yep. Even though you should not let a shark drive a tank. No. Definitely. It's not appropriate.

You'd have to fill it with water for starters. It's going to affect the machinery. That's not, that's not the sound business plan. It's awful. And it's not appropriate. You'd have to fill it with water, for starters. It's going to affect the machinery. That's not the sound business plan. It's awful. And it's not going to deal with the debt at all. He tried to stab their mother,

but a steel corset she was wearing, because luckily in those days people wore metal clothes, protected her and saved her life. But he did push her down the stairs. Oh, and in that case, the steel corset is not going to help. It's making things worse. Thinking he'd killed her, he then ran off to kill his third child henry who was quote a brat at nurse who was being nursed over in the village of norton luckily he was pursued by some villagers and it's rare that villagers as a group of the heroes in a story but on this occasion they were they chased him down and he's in fact his own horse saved the day by falling and trapping him underneath it.

And he was captured and taken to York Castle, which is, I think, what we would now call Clifford's Tower, if you know York. Nope. It's a little circular sort of castle. It's quite nice. Where he was pressed to death. Oh. Which sounds fun, but I think wasn't. I think it's they put a door on you and then pile rocks onto the door.

He may also have been castrated first. Aye. No sympathy for that guy. No, but all this violence is very random. Yeah. And seems unrelated to the cause. It's very disturbing. It made the news.

There were two plays written about it. There was The Miseries of Enforced Marriage, 1607, by George Willikens. Willikens? He was... Oh, no, it just says Wilkins. I've just added a little flourish to07, by George Willikins. Willikins? He was... Oh, no, it just says Wilkins. I've just added a little flourish to the name. George Willikins. He was a brothel keeper and businessman,

and he published the story. And then some people complained because they didn't like it, and so he changed the ending to make it a comedy. And I don't know how... Is that where the castration came in? Because... It begins with a double child stabbing. So don't know how how fun can the ending be to make it a comedy yeah how did the horse trip over maybe

slapstick chase at the end i just i don't know how you could make that a comedy it was also published the same story as the yorkshire tragedy which was at the time attributed to none other than William Shakespeare. Oh yeah, I've heard of him. One of the other famous shakes. You and him. I think he signed his name as Shakespeare when he visited the North West. Probably wasn't

written by Shakespeare. It's now attributed to Tom Middleton. Didn't he marry Prince William? This plays a bit odd because they're all quite concerned with um kind of exonerating him at the end forgiving him in some way so at the end the wife says to him because you know how it is in these plays people can be dying for about 45 minutes yeah so there's like there's a long conversation with him it's like he's being crushed with stones i don't think

he's going to be saying that much but his wife says to him you have been still unkind to me, which I think is a very mild way of putting it. He replies, Faith, and so I think I have. I did my murders roughly out of hand, desperate and sudden. But thou hath devised a fine way now to kill me. Thou hast given mine eyes seven wounds apiece. Now glides the devil from me, departs at every joint, heaves up my nails. Let him not rise to make men act unnatural tragedies, to spread into a father, Yeah, I don't think it was the devil, did it?

I don't think he complained the devil. No. Not for this one, mate. Especially since that's not what he said. They've got a record of what he said while he was being squashed, which was, Oh. Begging people to put more weight on so he would die faster.

Ah, okay. Which is not quite the same thing as sort of apologising and saying it was the devil. He said, What do you think happened to the servant? Probably got his **** cut off or something. He was hanged. I don't understand how that's a crime. If he's being murdered anyway, how is it a crime? Aye, aye, aye.

I can't find the logic of any of the violence in this. It's like a Quentin Tarantino film. It's horrible. We've got eyeballs being given seven wounds each. How can you get seven wounds into an eye? A very small knife. Or a cluster knife. I see the servant as being the Scatman Crothers of the story, by the way.

Because he just appears at the last minute and then just dies. Yeah. Really annoyingly randomly. So he was buried in St Mary's Church on Castlegate in York. Still there. You can go and see it. But the body is not. What?

That's what they say. The legend says he was secretly disinterred and had his body taken back to calvary hence ghosts so he is now said to charge about on a headless horse through the woods followed by several spectral horsemen who are said to sweep up unwary passers by they charge about from calvary all the way through the woods into into a cave causing all kinds of trouble to the extent that the vicar a cave. Causing all kinds of trouble. To the extent that the vicar of Calverley Church had to try and exercise the bogey, as they called it. And apparently succeeded for a time.

The legend said that Sir Walter would not appear again as long as hollies grew green in Calverley Wood. And in 1890, hollies did still grow green in that wood. Good. But Calverley did not stay quiet forever. Oh. Are you familiar with the phrase, I wouldn't kick him out of bed? Uh, yes.

Well, that is not how the ghost felt about the Reverend Richard Birdsall, who was staying in a certain house in Yorkshire and was physically thrown out of bed three times in a single night. Flung right out of the bed. Ah. And checked above it and below it

and couldn't find anything causing him to have been flung out of bed. And then afterwards, the next morning, discovered that the house he was staying in was none other than the house of the notorious Calverley. So he assumes it was that guy because it was a random, unrelated bit of violence. Yes, random violence. In 1872, everyone in Calverley was woken up by the church bell tolling in the middle of the night. And they all panicked and ran round to try and find out what it was. But as soon as the key rattled in the lock of the church, it stopped.

Random noise and violence. That's Calvary style. He goes on to say, although such supposed direct manifestations of Walter Calvary's ghostly powers have not been repeated of late, certain weird signs of the tragedy are, it is still said, visible. Stains of blood, irremovable stains, are yet to be seen on the floor. And there is always a flag, one particular flag in the cellar, which always has a

mysterious damp place on it. All the other flags are dry, save this. Wise men have tried, says the person writing about it, Mr Scruton, to account for this, but as yet have signally failed. Here it is, plain to be seen, and what one sees, one can believe. You sound sceptical. Yes. A wet

stone in a cellar? Explain that. Probably a burst pipe. Ghost pipe? Yeah, maybe. Random violence? Yep. Explain that. I don't think I can explain anything to do with this Calverley chap. It's absolutely, incredibly mysterious. I can explain one thing, which is

why I've included him in a collection of schoolboy ghost stories. Because, in the 1830s, a group of schoolboys, having heard all of these tales, decided they were going to conjure the ghost of Calvary. So they went to Calvary Church and they put all their hats and caps on the ground in the form of a pyramid.

They took hold of each other's hands and formed a magic circle and they cast onto the ground a mixture, and this is very strange, a mixture of bread and what do you think the other thing is that they're going to mix together to make it magical? Stones?

It's not. It's another thing that a boy could have in his pocket though. Oh, bubblegum? No, something that existed in the 1830s. Card?

Bits of card? Fluff? Pocket fluff? Pins. Pins. It was pins. Yeah, isn't that weird? Bread and pins.

Bread and pins. They scattered bread and pins all over the ground. They formed a magic circle, and they tramped around the circle, and they chanted the magical chant, which was, Old Calverley, old Calverley, I have thee by the ears. I'll cut thee into collops unless thee appears. Do you hear the collop klaxon going there? Collops.

Collops. Collapse. Is that? It's like a big wind-up airway siren that says, Collapse. Yes. Of course. It says that some of the more venturesome boys had to go round to each of the church doors

and whistle aloud through the keyholes and repeat the magical couplet. And what happened? I'll tell you what happened. I'll read directly from the book. At this culminating point, a pale and ghostly figure was expected to appear, and on one occasion, some such apparition does seem to have issued forth,

apparently from the church. The lads, in their terrified haste to avoid the ghost's fearful grasp, scampered off as fast as their legs could carry them, leaving their hats and caps scattered about the ground as legitimate spoil for old Calverley. Ooh. So you've got to keep all the caps and the pins. Yeah, they don't mention getting the pins and the crumbs as well.

So that's nice. That's too spooky. Too spooky? Very spooky. It's confusing. Those are my three tales from the haunted houses of Great Britain. And family weirdness. Odd, strange things from the past, but with very specific dates.

Great date work, Ingramgram What a lovely triptych Oh Of schoolboy errors I forgot I meant to introduce it as a cryptic triptych We got there in the end Yeah Are you ready to score

The Haunted Houses of Great Britain? First category Is names Oh okay There were quite a lot I'll give you There were a lot There was definitely

A very fun one Revvy Rubble Yes Reverend John Ruddle Revvy Ruddle We've got the Psychomanteum. That's a good name for a thing. Yes.

We've got Ghostland. It's not as good as Ghost World. Not as good as Ghost World, no. Or Ghostland Paris. That's the worst. I'd say I'm going to go for a... Scatman Crothers. Scatman Crothers.

Got that in there? The idea of Scatman Crothers is very good. Was Scatman his given name or was that his... No, I looked it up before the episode because I was thinking that would be odd when to name a child Scatman would be odd and it's not his given name. Oh, it's sort of a title bestowed upon him.

It's a stage name, yeah. So when Scatman Carruthers died, was a new Scatman crowned? Like Giles from Buffy had to go and find the next Scatman. The Scatman is dead, long live the scatman crowned like giles from buffy had to go and find the next scatman the scatman is dead long live the scatman and his sidekick scat boy that is not a good nickname doesn't have a good ring to it uh scat lad uh very appropriate for yorkshire but i don't know Very appropriate for Yorkshire, but I don't know. I'm not on board with Scat Lad.

What? Bee Minster. Bee Minster. Endorse it. The Demon of Tedworth. The Demon of Tedworth. Okay, I was going to go three, but I'm going to go four. All right, thank you.

I'm glad. You reminded me about the extra ones, and I had a lot of fun with the Reverend Ruddle. Brilliant. Next category, Supernatural. Ooh, hello. Yep. pretty much everything turned to dust there can't move for ghosts no yeah you got it's thick with ghosts you've got child ghosts that become detectives in the afterlife child detective solving crimes you've got you've got deploying

ghosts on ice in the second story yep slidey slidey PlayStation 4 ghosts, PlayStation 5, whatever the new one is called. And then just an incredibly violent ghost at the end. Yeah, horrible violence. That steals caps and pins. Well, I've got to go. I've got to go with a five. That is one of the most ghost-rich tales I've heard for a very long time. That is the most supernatural.

I have noticed basically you don't give any points unless there's a ghost. So I thought I'll make you smoke a whole pack of ghosts. I'm loving it. I'm going to go out and buy a ghost pipe. All right. Next category. Ghosts are real. Wait a minute.

Because, I mean, look at the evidence here. Look, I've got specific dates that authoritative men, vicars, saw the ghosts and had up to 15 minute long conversations. Tell me what happened in that conversation if ghosts is real. What happens when they're not in the field? How do they get to the

field? Do they have to commute? That's between Dorothy Durrant and old Roland Riveron. How do coffins have ghosts? We've done nearly 50 episodes of this, James. How can you have a ghost of a coffin? Have we ever had a ghost coffin before? I don't think we've ever had a wooden ghost.

Yeah, no, that is the most inanimate ghost. They even described the hinges of the coffin looking the same as the actual coffin. It was confirmed. Well. As we both know, coffin hinges have a wide variety of designs. And they're like fingerprints. No one set of coffin hinges could be mistaken for another.

That's just a fact. It's just a coffin fact. Presumably these children had been at the funeral, so they've already seen the coffin. I mean, yeah, it is possible one of them was his cousin, so it's possible he had been at the funeral, yeah. I think you've double scored on supernatural, then you're you're getting me again with it turns out ghosts actually are existing and aren't supernatural can i go back and change the past points no you but you could be forced to relive it forever oh as a ghost ah well if you're not gonna believe a vicar

some school kids and a woman who wears a stab-proof vest around the house, who are you going to believe? Yeah, are you telling me children or religious people could lie, James? Are you considering that to be an option? It turns out ghosts are real. Five out of five. Yes, ghosts are real. Thank you. Brilliant.

OK, final category, pulling a shake shaft. Oh, because it was a wonderfully entertaining story and everyone had a really good, nice time. No. Some children did get murdered. Yes, not everybody had a nice time. Someone was stabbed and pushed down the stairs. What I mean by pulling a shake shaft is

I deliberately strung together three stories that were not in any way connected because they all had ghosts in them because I knew you would think they were spooky and give me five points. But then you managed to double them five into ten. And I doubled those five into ten by manipulating the game in my favour in a classic Shake Shack style.

And now I'm revealing my plot to you like at the end of a mystery. No, Columbo famously did it at the beginning. yeah columb ghost does not work ghost lumbo columbo scary ghost columbo i guess that's that's scooby-doo really isn't it ghost columbo did they ever find out where scooby-doo was in that song or does it remain unclear oh yeah i don't know scooby-doo-doo where are you

where was he i don't know any more of the lyrics to be honest for all i know it could go scooby-doo where are you are you over there yep there he is eating all the scooby snacks uh okay then pull in a shake shaft i'm gonna give you five points are you right now but look at them five points i am they've turned to dust and pins what am i being hoisted by is it my own petard big time don't even know why i brought a petard what is a petard it's a type of bomb i think i always imagined it as a pointy stick but i think you're right it's a bomb but i don't being hoisted by a bomb hoist in this case means being blown up by so do i not get five points am i getting zero points oh you think you get five points but yeah as soon as sunlight falls on them they turn to

dust oh no that's gonna make it very difficult to enter this into the ledger you can try and take a picture of those five points but oh it didn't come out on the film james oh there's orbs when you get it's full of orbs blurry when you get them pictures back from boots in a week it's gonna have a little sticker on it saying no too many ghosts too many ghosts yeah that's just been a category too many ghosts slapstick ghosts could have been a category yeah there was quite a lot of um hilarious violence the ghost kid being bullied beyond the grave seems harsh. It does seem harsh, yeah.

But the ghost on ice I liked. Also, I like the idea that that 15-minute conversation happened whilst she was shooting past on her ghostly roller skates. So I was just trying to say, if you have any unfinished business, just let me know what it is and i'm gonna try and set you to rest in some way maybe that's what's happening with the the doppler effect yeah just blooming Doppler pretty spooky eh James

oh wonderfully spooky I do need to warn you about the shake shaft points though yeah they will reappear

every full moon that's a relief and probably don't bury them if you don't have enough room for a giant beanstalk. And that's great advice. If you enjoy listening to Lawmen,

which is me, Alistair Becker-King, and me, James Shakespeare, then why not join us next Tuesday, a.k.a. the 14th of July, for a celebratory 50th episode live stream at twitch.tv forward slash lawmen pod. Ooh! stream at twitch.tv forward slash lawmen pod.

I'm thinking of auditioning for the role of Colonel Broad Rep in the Ghost Detectives show. Oh, Ghost Detectives, they're throwing stones at us. What do you think? Yeah. I mean, if you're the creator of the show, do you still have to audition? Yeah, that says something about my self-esteem there, doesn't it? Can I be the cousin?

Paul Daniels? Paul Daniels? Yeah. I totally didn't notice that you called him Paul Daniels in the recording and I only listened back. Did I discover that you said Paul Daniels? Yeah, you could play Paul Daniels. Ted started podcasting. Your son has started podcasting?

Yeah. Yeah? Yeah, my son started podcasting. Has he got more listeners than us? Yeah, I've listened to it and we've sent it around the whole family. So I think he's getting more penetration amongst that group than I am. Yeah, quite a lot of engagement by the sounds of it. Big time, yeah.

His teachers sending it to his teachers, they're responding with comments. What's the subject? What's his angle? Dinosaurs. That's good. It's a good podcast about dinosaurs. He's got his own catchphrase. It's really good. What's the catchphrase? What does it say?

Love the podcast, Bap. Love the podcast, Bap. Love the podcast, Bap. Love the podcast, Bap. Love the podcast, Bap. Love the podcast, Bap.