Loremen Podcast - S3 Ep4: Loremen S3 Ep4 - Mother Ludlam's Cauldron

Episode Date: January 16, 2020

A triptych of stories about an actual thing in a church this week. Be it the work of human, faerie or (as usual) the devil? Thanks to listener Simon Martin for suggesting these nuggets of Surrey lore. @loremenpod www.instagram.com/loremenpod www.facebook.com/loremenpod @JamesShakeshaft | @MisterABK

Welcome to Lawmen, a podcast about local legends and obscure curiosities from days of yore. I'm James Shakeshaft. And I'm Alistair Beckett-King. This week's tale is a little bit different because it was suggested by a listener. We've had a few listener suggestions in, thank you very much. Apart from the listener whose suggestion somewhat slandered Princess Anne. We're not going to do that one. But this one came from Simon Martin, thanks Simon.

Thank you, Simon. And it's a real doozy. It's called Mother Ludlam, and she had a cauldron and a whole bunch of stories about that cauldron. While the music fades in, will you tell me what Princess Anne did? Actually, it wasn't that bad. Given recent events, it wasn't that bad. This one...

Oh, by the way, I've moved now. I've moved house. Congratulations. Congratulations. By the way, I've moved now. I've moved house. And I thought of the podcast because in about the week before moving house, we had to clear out the basement, which I'd mentioned in the Blue Cap episode. I was very impressed that you had a basement. Series one, episode two or three?

Sounds about right to me uh blue cap and the reason i remembered it is because during that i said about how the basement was an absolute mess and it was weighing on my mind and i didn't realize my wife was very supportive and would listen to the podcast and then was like what's wrong with the basement oh no then in moving, you've got to take all your things. So we had to go through everything in the basement. But we really sorted it out and chucked loads of stuff away, all that. It was all neat. It was all really, really neat. And I thought, actually, we don't need to move anymore.

We've got loads of room. But now all the things are in a loft. We haven't got a basement in the new one. We have a loft. But there's weird stuff in this new town. So we moved to a loft. We haven't got a basement in the new one. We have a loft. But there's weird stuff in this new town. So we're in it. We moved to a countryside. And this town, I thought it was like, oh, that must just be a pub sign.

It's got one of them things sticking out over the street like a pub sign. A shingle. And in it is a sphere. And then right and above it says, the witch's orb or the witch's ball or something like that. And I thought, oh, that must be a pub. And then I realised there's no pub there. It's just a thing. It's just there for no reason. I don't know what it's... I keep

forgetting to look up on Wikipedia what it might be. The witch's orb. Yeah. It's like... I hope that used to be a pub and they just kept the sign up because it looked cool rather than an actual witch related artefact. Because I imagine it was not taken from a witch.

It was probably used to hurt a witch. Yes. In some way, because that's all people did. Speaking of witches, today's story is about a witch. Yeah. Now, this one is from a listener's suggestion. Oh. Yeah.

What a treat. This one is from a friend of the show and me, mine, a friend of mine. Simon, hello, Simon Martin. Hi, mine. Simon, hello Simon Martin. Hi Simon. It's a great story. What have you got for us? Mother Ludlam's Cave. Mother Ludlam's Cave is in Farnham in Surrey.

It's in the Way Valley near Waverley Abbey, which is bloody lovely to say. Highly recommend it. Waverley Abbey's just ruins now, but the Way Valley's still a thing with a cave in it, which is still called Mother Ludlam's Cave or Mother Ludlam's Hole. Both equally equally good names so i looked up the legends a lot of them to do with monks called simon as well which made me think come on simon yeah come on don't just get

your name don't just like a thing because it's got the same name as you and that yeah all the legends do with either this monk or a stream apart from the ones that are to do with this most famous resident, Mother Ludlam. Now, all the stories about Mother Ludlam revolve around borrowing her cauldron. But it gets better, because that cauldron, to this day, is in the nearby Frensom Church. Oh.

Yeah. So you can go and see it? The opposite of most of my stories, the things involved in it don't just turn into dust and disappear at the end of the story. Yeah, it's still there. I've seen a a picture so you've got a real extant object verifying that this happened yeah wow this cauldron and there's a bunch of different legends about this cauldron there's so many well there's three i'm gonna let you pick i'm gonna tell them all

but you can pick the order all right so do you want there's one to do with the devil there's one to do with a person and there's one to do with a person, and there's one to do with fairies. I'm going to go with person first. I'm saving the fairies and devil for dessert. Right, so I'm going to have a starter of person. Okay. Just like the bit of bread while we wait, while we sort of sit down. Are you charging for this?

If I eat this, do I have to pay for it? If I don't eat it, do I still have to pay for it? I mean, it's there. You've paid for it in in in the markup so you might as well eat all the bread eat all the person you can get can i ask for more person i think you can actually it's like tap water just for the table okay so if you're a person you go down to mother ludlam's cave at midnight turn around three times and say pray good mother ludlam lend me such and such and i will return it in two days you obviously replace such and such with the thing you actually want to borrow right and then you go home and the next morning it will be outside the cave and you can

borrow it she was a lender she lent stuff so anything anything but but it only lasts two days yeah right you can borrow anything usually it was kitchen utensils now someone one day borrowed a cauldron and was late giving it back mother ludlam was so furious with the borrower that they hid in the church and hid the cauldron in the church right because mother ludlam wouldn't be able to go in there because she was which yeah um or the story was that she was so furious she refused to take it back and was never seen again. And the guy just

donated it to the church. Wow. What a terrifying threat. Bring it back to me or I'll be so angry that I'm never seen again and you get to keep it. How did they know she was that angry? She just was never seen again. And then he donated it to the church apparently, where it it to the church, apparently,

where it stands to this day. All right, fair enough. But what a strong finishing move, just never being seen again. That's ultimate sulk. Very passive-aggressive. No, fine, keep it. I'm going to not exist anymore. Then you'll be sorry.

That's the end of your starter. Thank you. So you've got mains. What do you want for your mains? For my my mains I'm going to have the fairy please oh the fairies yep I'm keeping the devil for afters

puds pud puds so fairies there is a hill called Burrow Hill is the pause part of the name I'm

the thing is it's called Burrow Hill that doesn't make sense how can a hill be a burrow well because it's got a burrow on it like oh there's a oh yeah okay

yeah you could burrow yeah I get it now the got a burrow on it. Oh, yeah, okay. Yeah, you could. I get it now. The reason I was laboring it is because Burrow Hill and you go to the fairies and you ask to borrow something and the thing was like, oh, it's obvious. It was Westwood and Simpson was like, it's clearly a pun on Burrow Hill. And then I was like, oh, do they mean burrow and borrow?

It's like they're punning on that they sound similar yeah yeah yeah I was trying to make that work but it's impossible okay so up on top of Burrow Hill

there is a big old boulder from which if you listen carefully you can hear music classic rock I'll tell you what I was listening to the song Bat Out of Hell

today it's eight minutes long and it's basically two songs about bats just back to back like it finishes with whatever it is i can crawl an arm back to you then there's like four more minutes of music and different verses in a different tune that's like that's not that's a medley yeah probably probably set that bit up yeah and then what you do is you whisper to the because the fairies are in the stone play the music oh right yeah yeah you whisper what you want

and how long you want to borrow it for but if you don't return it on the date that you stated you are cursed to have that thing

follow you around for the rest of your days what the thing yeah like and in this case it was a cauldron right

so he had that following him around what being followed by a cauldron as threats go these are weak. But it's like a poor credit score, isn't it? Because it'd be like, oh, don't lend him...

He obviously didn't give that cauldron back. Because clunk, clunk. It reminds me of a thing. I'm going to ask you this out of politeness. Have you read any of the Discworld books? What do you mean? How dare you say that so sarcastically? Yes, I've read all of the Discworld books.

Right. It's reminded me of the luggage. The luggage, yeah. That would be actually quite useful if you had a cauldron following you around the whole time. You could use it to keep your drinks in. Yeah, absolutely. Especially if your outfit doesn't have pockets.

Pop it in the cauldron. Yeah, pop it in the cauldron, mate. Other people might say, I just want to pop this down, just stick it in my cauldron. Yeah, I'll come with you. Don't forget that cauldron. I wish.

Yeah, you're obviously, you wouldn't be able to go to funerals or the theatre, but anywhere else. You could put a wreath on it. A clunk, yeah. Clunk its way into the funeral. It could be next to you as you stand graveside. Yeah, put tissues in for mourners.

Popcorn in it at the cinema. Yeah, not at the funeral. And that's what the cauldron would have been used for for weddings and stuff like that it would have been used for like um village or town-wide events they use it as a big thing to have a big communal meal so you'd always be invited to weddings and stuff like that brilliant having a cauldron that follows you around all the time how is that a punishment i think maybe the person lied that they were following around because they just wanted to get invited to all the weddings yeah because otherwise we like can i borrow your cauldron

yeah but oh no i mean i it follows me around so i have to be always within three feet of it so i'm coming to your wedding now and the list not the ceremony just the evening thank you but how did that happen can you come up with an outlandish story that explains it? Why, yes, I can. I went up to the top of a hill and whispered at a rock, OK, come to my wedding. And then the story was the person was chased by this cauldron and finally collapsed and died in the church. And that's why the cauldron's still in the church to this very day. I hadn't anticipated the death.

The fact that there's three completely different explanations to this isn't adding to the veracity of the story, but let's hear the one about devils. Okay, so the devil turned up to Mother Ludlam to ask her to borrow the cauldron. Okay. Right,

so, yeah, so he needs a cauldron. And she was about to lend it to him when she noticed his hoof prints in the sand. Because presumably he disguised himself as a non-devilish looking person. But she saw that his feet were leaving hoof prints in the sand and was like, no, I'm not going to lend you this cauldron for you are the devil. So the devil stole the cauldron and ran away.

What a rascal. So she chased after him on a broomstick because she's a witch sorry because when you said the devil came because the devil often comes in stories and asks for seemingly small things and the point is that the devil's trying to rope you in a little bit you know it's like do me this favor can i can i borrow this from you but but when she refuses to lend him the cauldron he still steals the cauldron it's just that he did actually want the Cauldron I want this Cauldron it was the Cauldron

is why he was there yeah and then he ran off and then he was being chased by Mother Ludlam and he like did these three massive leaps and kicked up these three

hills called the Devil's Jumps one of which is Borough Hill I don't know the name of the other one then he dropped the Cauldron on the third hill called Kettle hill yeah and that's the and that's how those things came to be and so

mother ludlam retrieved the cauldron and kept it in the church to keep it safe from the devil yep yep perfectly reasonable devil's jump sidebar would you like a devil's jump sidebar yeah there's another story related to the devil's jumps he used to just love jumping between the hills and the devil would have a great time jumping between the hills the devil's jumps

until Thor told him to stop alright and yep and the devil yeah yes

I accepted Thor from Marvel yeah the devil said took the mickey out of Thor said oh you're just jealous because you're too old to do it and so Thor threw a massive rock at him,

and that landed on top of Borough Hill. And that's the big stone the fairies live in. Top of Borough Hill. Nice work. It works if you're American. That's even more dispiriting. Do you go to Edinburgh? Can I borrow a cauldron, dude?

I'm going to totally... As long as you don't Turn it into a bong Quite a tale Story ends Score time Score time He said it like a butler Score time

Score time Yes So the scores Okay Are going to go first With puns Are you going to open With puns

Yeah I just want to get it Out of the way Well How many puns were there So there's open with puns? Yeah, I just want to get it out of the way. Well, how many puns were there? So there's Burro Burro. Burro Burro. Kettleberry Hill. Because he dropped a cauldron.

Which is like a kettle. That's wordplay. I'll accept that. And it might have got a bit buried. On Kettleberry Hill. That's just a name, actually. Stop talking yourself out of points I did a pun about what music

would be coming out of the boulder Yes Because I said it might be rock music Rock music Or Sly and the Family Stone Yep

Should have gone with the Rolling Stones Yep Clearer In fact I've never heard of the other people that you said Sly or the Family Stone

Sly or the Family Stone Sly and the Family Stone Not Sly or the Family Stone. Sly and the Family Stone. Not Sly or the Family Stone. Sly and the Family Stone. You can't have or in the name of a band, can you? No. You can't have Kenny Rogers or the first edition. Don't make me choose.

And also, how cool that that was the first band I could think of that was Blanky Blank and the Blank Blanks. Yeah. Cliff Richard or the Shadows. This is just the shadows. Oh, that is a... And that was it for puns.

That was all the puns. So you have three puns, but you did repeat one of them quite a lot. They were so laboured, though, that makes them seem like more. Yeah, it did give the impression of being more. I'm going to give it a three out of five because I don't like puns. Some puns I like, those puns I don't like. I'm going to give it a three out of five because I don't like puns.

Some puns I like. Those puns I don't like. I agree. Should have called it bad puns. You'd be staring down the barrel of a four. But it was not to be. Then supernatural. Supernatural. It's a highly supernatural story, James. Yes. Witches. It's got a witch.

Witch, yeah. It's got the devil. Yes. Several fairies. Some fairies. It's got TV's Thor. Yeah. It's got a witch. Witch, yeah. It's got the devil. Yes. Several fairies. Some fairies. It's got TV's Thor. Yeah. It's got a kettle which is like a sort of... You know the way Anthony Hopkins disappears into a role? This kettle just does everything.

Shows up in all the different things. It's in every version of the story. Yeah. The kettle. It's like the... I've not seen Four Rooms enough, but I imagine that's probably got a device that links all the things in it, doesn't it? I don't know Four Rooms. It's not very... I'm not seeing Four Rooms enough, but I imagine that's probably got a device that links all the things in it, doesn't it?

I don't know Four Rooms. It's not very good. All right. It's like the little duck in the Usborne books that was in every illustration. Yes. Yeah, okay. Yeah, that's a good one.

It's like Rashomon. It's like the Rashomon Gate in Rashomon. Rashomon Gate in Rashomon? Yeah. Is Rashomon a gate? Yeah. It's not a person. No, Rashomon is the place

where the story happens. I think I thought because it's got mon in it, it was like, that was like a man. Like it's a Jamaican. Like Rashomon. Like a pig version of Rastamouse.

Yeah. Yes. Rashomon. Rashomon. Right, I'm going to have to up the pun one to four based purely on Rashomon.

But don't push it. Some sort of Jamaican pig suit detective. No, just superhero. I don't know why he's a detective. I know why he's a detective. I'm only on the board if he's a detective. Because by talking about something Japanese, it's somehow linked in my brain to,

linked to the Troma film, Sergeant Kabuki Man. Wow. Which was about a policeman who had some sort of curse that meant he would turn into a kabuki actor at points in this film. Is that a real film?

That's a film. The Troma films were legendary amongst my group of friends. There was Sergeant Kabuki Man, which I think was the only one that Georgie's Video Library had that we would rent out and watch, but it had the trailers at the beginning

with such brilliantly named films as Blondes Have More Guns and Surf Nazis Must Die. Well, we can all agree with that. Definitely. All Nazis, whether they be on land or sea or surf, we will fight them on.

What category is this? Winston Churchill impressions? 5 out of 5. Yes! No, it was supernatural and it is 5 out of 5. And the ghost of Churchill that you invoked in order to kill our serving enemy. 5 out of 5. What's the next category? Names. Names. I feel I should have kept my powder dry on the names order to kill our serving enemy five out of five what's the next category names names i feel i

should have kept my powder dry on the names front well well i mean a lot of the names are also puns so okay but you know we've got mother ludlam mother ludlam mudlands hole mud ludlands cave waverly abbey in the way valley waverlyley Valley in Lelebe. Simon Martin. Your friend, Simon Martin. Yeah. My friend and mine. Friend of the show, Simon Martin. Yeah.

I think it is a very charming three out of five for names. Okay. Simon is very charming. I enjoy Kettleberry Hill. Okay. It's a nice name. Yeah. I really did try and find the name of the other one. Yeah, what's the third hill called, James?

Well, I saw somewhere that it was called Stone Top, but then I think that's just confused with Borough Hill, which has got the stone on the top of it. Because I can't imagine that two of them had stones on top of them and only one got called Stone Top. Yeah. It would be like Stone Top Hill 2. That would be one of the stone, it'd be like Stone Top Hill 2.

So would I get a three? It's a three, I'm afraid. Yeah, okay. That's as many as there are jumps for the devil. Okay, my final category, Extended Universe. Explain this category to me a bit because I'm not an expert in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. It's not just Marvel's Extended Universe,

but we do have someone from Marvel's Ext universe we've got thor thor we've just got i'm saying we've got cameos from people from different tie in all these different like thor lives in the same world as mother ludlam what a crossover and the luggage from the yeah and an object which is like the luggage from Discworld. Yeah. Yep. And... The devil. He's in lots of films. Yep. Xperia.

Because I said that the cauldron follows you around like a poor credit score. So in the Xperia... It's getting tenuous here, James. Xperia Extended Universe from the adverts

where the dog talks to people and says you should check out your credit score. It's a weak case so far. Yeah, it got weaker, really, didn't it? It really did.

Yeah. Fairies. From fairies? From the life of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. Yeah, yep. That's about it. Well, James, I hope you'll agree with me that that is the worst case you've ever made for any points.

But they were all in their own extended universes as well. The cauldron's extended universe. Sorry. Or the adventures that it went on. You've got to just keep saying the phrase extended universe to explain your reasoning. Also, Thor is just a god. No, I think it's a...

Just a god. I think it's a one out of five for extended universe. I've never been less impressed. It's a lovely story. Let me be clear about this, James. It's not the story's fault. For God's sake, it's not Simon's fault. Simon, if you're listening, I'm sorry about this.

It's on you, James. It's all you. It's one out of five. Damn it. This category should have been the little cauldron that could. Yep. That would have been a five out of five, but it's too late now. Oh, if the cauldron had been called Ron

I could have made up some points earlier on in the pun round. Damn it. Another case for Detective Rashomon. The sound of bacon slapping together.

Oink, oink. Why would a pig use bacon for paper? They wouldn't do that. Oh, no. That'd be horrible. That'd be like binding your cases

in human skin. You've been listening to Lawmen. The Lawmen are James Shakeshaft and Alistair Beckett-King. Next week, I am bringing you Captain Thickness.

Ooh. His own spin-off episode. If you want to bone up on thickness. Bone up on the thickness. Then, which episode did he feature in before? He featured in the London Monster episode, which is a very good one, and this is a sort of, think of it as Joey

to Friends. Oh. Or Frasier to Cheers. Better. And Morkomindi to Happy Days. Happy Days. Yes. You know, Jump the Shark comes from Happy Days. Yeah. Right, Happy Days ran for about 10 to 15 series. Yeah.

They jumped the shark in series five. He jumps the shark before they're visited by an alien so it's not that bad jumping the shark i don't think and in the last series fonzie has a haunted car which sounds a bit more up my alley we could use that phrase he's haunted the car on that one. There's a whole sitcom about a haunted car in America. Is there? Yeah. What's it called? It's called

My Mother the Car. My Mother the Car. I know. They didn't spend any time on the names. So his mum dies and then she haunts his car and he's always trying

to get off with girls. Yeah. But the car... Take him up to make out point. Exactly. And the car is always interfering. So he...

It's a disgusting premise. He tries to inside his... Yeah, I know! How do you pitch that? Yeah, that's worse than Back to the Future. That is a lot worse. Yeah, at least the DeLorean wasn't his mum. I've made a time machine! Out of your mother, it's weird!

Well, if you're going to make a time machine, why not do it with some edible complex? So, yeah, Captain Thickness or something or something yeah why don't you listen to the show